Re: [OSM-talk] SOTM Brussels public transport info

[Andy Mabbett]

On 22 September 2016 at 05:00, Jo  wrote:

[big snip]

> It's a mess. The route planners do work to give you the best connections,
> but tarification is opaque.

Please add your excellent, detailed answer to the existing info on Wikivoyage:

   https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Brussels

so that others may find and benefit from it.

-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SOTM Brussels public transport info

[Jo]

A bicycle is indeed very convenient (in combination with OSMAND). Cycling
in Brussels was a crazy thing to do 20 years ago, but things have improved
for the better.

The terrain goes up and down though, so be prepared for some uphill.

Polyglot

2016-09-22 11:36 GMT+02:00 Rafael Avila Coya :

> To move around Brussels, you can also use the Villo! bicycle network [1].
> You can get a ticket for a day or a week. Very cheap [2], and it's working
> very well for me.
>
> To buy a card, you can do it at any Villo! station.
>
> I am usin AllBikesNow [3] android app to check nearest bicycle stations.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rafael.
>
> [1] http://en.villo.be/
>
> [2] http://en.villo.be/Rates/Rates/Consult-the-rates
>
> [3] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jcdecaux.a
> llbikesnow=nl
>
>
> On 22/09/16 07:59, Stephan Knauss wrote:
>
>> On 22.09.2016 06:00, Jo wrote:
>>
>>> The reason for the extra fee on top of STIB/MIVB tickets is that they
>>> operate in Brussels, but the airport is 'out of their normal reach',
>>> over in Flanders.
>>>
>>
>> They could state it clearer that the airport is outside the network.
>> Thanks for the explanation.
>>
>> The cheapest (€3) way to get from the airport to Brussels is using De
>>> Lijn 272, 471, BUT that will take about an hour to get to the wrong side
>>> of the city. The terminus at North Station is not the VUB campus.
>>>
>> Perfect for me as I will arrive in the evening and have a hotel in that
>> area. Thanks again.
>>
>> From there to the VUB campus sounds easy again as it is all within the
>> city, so all transports are available.
>>
>> Stephan
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SOTM Brussels public transport info

[Rafael Avila Coya]

To move around Brussels, you can also use the Villo! bicycle network 
[1]. You can get a ticket for a day or a week. Very cheap [2], and it's 
working very well for me.


To buy a card, you can do it at any Villo! station.

I am usin AllBikesNow [3] android app to check nearest bicycle stations.

Cheers,

Rafael.

[1] http://en.villo.be/

[2] http://en.villo.be/Rates/Rates/Consult-the-rates

[3] 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.jcdecaux.allbikesnow=nl


On 22/09/16 07:59, Stephan Knauss wrote:

On 22.09.2016 06:00, Jo wrote:

The reason for the extra fee on top of STIB/MIVB tickets is that they
operate in Brussels, but the airport is 'out of their normal reach',
over in Flanders.


They could state it clearer that the airport is outside the network.
Thanks for the explanation.


The cheapest (€3) way to get from the airport to Brussels is using De
Lijn 272, 471, BUT that will take about an hour to get to the wrong side
of the city. The terminus at North Station is not the VUB campus.

Perfect for me as I will arrive in the evening and have a hotel in that
area. Thanks again.

From there to the VUB campus sounds easy again as it is all within the
city, so all transports are available.

Stephan



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SOTM Brussels public transport info

[Stephan Knauss]

On 22.09.2016 06:00, Jo wrote:

The reason for the extra fee on top of STIB/MIVB tickets is that they
operate in Brussels, but the airport is 'out of their normal reach',
over in Flanders.


They could state it clearer that the airport is outside the network. 
Thanks for the explanation.



The cheapest (€3) way to get from the airport to Brussels is using De
Lijn 272, 471, BUT that will take about an hour to get to the wrong side
of the city. The terminus at North Station is not the VUB campus.
Perfect for me as I will arrive in the evening and have a hotel in that 
area. Thanks again.


From there to the VUB campus sounds easy again as it is all within the 
city, so all transports are available.


Stephan



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SOTM Brussels public transport info

[Jo]

The reason for the Diabolo tax (when you take the train), is that extra
rails and tunnels were built to make the airport connection a lot smoother.

http://www.belgianrail.be/jp/sncb-nmbs-routeplanner/query.exe/en?S=Brussels+Airport+-+Zaventem=Delta=23/09/2016=05:46=1=depart&=A=1@O=Brussels%20Airport%20-%20Zaventem@X=4482076@Y=50896456@U=80@L=008819406@B=1@p=1474500303@n=ac.1=GA@=A=1@O=Delta@X=4403869@Y=50818358@U=80@L=008811205@B=1@p=1474500303@n=ac.1=GA@_prod_list=3:0111#focus

The reason for the extra fee on top of STIB/MIVB tickets is that they
operate in Brussels, but the airport is 'out of their normal reach', over
in Flanders. So if you take bus 12 or 21, you have to buy a supplementary
ticket at their vending machines. The JUMP ticket is issued by them and
they made agreements with the other operators so inside the Brussels region
it's possible to use the other means of transport as well. The airport is
not within Brussels region.

http://www.stib-mivb.be/tripplanner/TravelPlans?Accessible=false=false=true=false=false=false=true=false=false=false=true=true=false=2016-9-23=8232=Stop==false==9600=Stop=12%2C5==false=5%3A50=SpecifiedDepartureTime=false===en


The cheapest (€3) way to get from the airport to Brussels is using De Lijn
272, 471, BUT that will take about an hour to get to the wrong side of the
city. The terminus at North Station is not the VUB campus. Their focus is
serving Flanders, and although they do continue into Brussels, it's not the
priority.

https://www.delijn.be/en/routeplanner/resultaten.html?from=Brussels+Airport%2C+Zaventem=158094=176021=Station+Delta+%5BB%5D=152475=167548=23-09-2016=1=05%3A55=on=on=on=off=off

If you see colours on the line numbers, they are operated by De Lijn. If
the numbers are black, they are operated by STIB/MIVB and your ticket of De
Lijn won't be valid on those.


It's a mess. The route planners do work to give you the best connections,
but tarification is opaque. Even more so for locals who have abonnement for
one of the operators, or who arrive by train, giving them the right to use
the train to continue to any station in Brussels.

Polyglot

2016-09-21 23:16 GMT+02:00 Ruben :

> On Wed, 21 Sep 2016 22:58:29 +0200
> Christian Rogel  wrote:
>
> > Le 21 sept. 2016 à 22:31, Stephan Knauss  a
> écrit :
> > >
> > > I am just completing my trip planning to ensure a smooth arrival at
> SOTM. The Brussels public transport leaves me a bit uncertain.
> > >
> > > I will arrive at Brussels Airport.
> > >
> > > The trip planner suggests to take a train 3737 to Bruxelles Nord.
> > > http://www.stib-mivb.be/reisweg-itineraire.html?l=en
> > >
> > > I wonder: Is this also included in the Jump 24h ticket costing 7.50
> EUR?
> > > The website mentiones a Bourget-Brussels Airport section
> > > http://www.stib-mivb.be/1-jour-dag.html?l=en
> > >
> > > But if I check the website of the train, then it says I should get a
> Standard ticket for 8,60 EUR. Why would it suggest that if I could go for
> Jump with 7,50? Sounds like it is not included.
> > >
> > > http://www.belgianrail.be/en/travel-tickets/which-is-the-
> right-ticket-for-me.aspx
> > >
> > > Is the Jump ticket maybe not valid for trains? Is it valid for the bus
> lines to the airport only?
> > >
> > > Would be great is a seasoned Brussels traveler can give some details.
> > >
> > > Thanks, and see you at SOTM,
> > >
> >
> > You will have a yes answer there : https://www.stib-mivb.be/1-
> jour-dag.html?l=en
> >
> > From Bruxelles
> >
> > See you maybe there,
> >
> > Christian Rogel
>
> SNCB=NBMS, the train operator in the whole of Belgium
> STIB=MIVB, Brussels' bus, tram and metro operator
> TEC, Wallonia's bus, tram and metro operator, also active in Brussels
> De Lijn, Flanders' bus, tram and metro operator, also active in Brussels
>
> Although I'm not familiar with JUMP passes, according to the SNCB/NMBS
> they are valid on all public transport operators I mentioned above:
> http://www.belgianrail.be/en/travel-tickets/passes-cards/jump.aspx
>
> Beware when traveling by train from/to Brussels Airport: you may have to
> pay an additional "Diabolo" fee: http://www.belgianrail.be/en/
> travel-tickets/tickets/diabolo-fee-to-airport/no-diabolo.aspx. As far as
> I can see, you have to pay it when using a JUMP pass.
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SOTM Brussels public transport info

[Ruben]

On Wed, 21 Sep 2016 22:58:29 +0200
Christian Rogel  wrote:

> Le 21 sept. 2016 à 22:31, Stephan Knauss  a écrit :
> > 
> > I am just completing my trip planning to ensure a smooth arrival at SOTM. 
> > The Brussels public transport leaves me a bit uncertain.
> > 
> > I will arrive at Brussels Airport.
> > 
> > The trip planner suggests to take a train 3737 to Bruxelles Nord.
> > http://www.stib-mivb.be/reisweg-itineraire.html?l=en
> > 
> > I wonder: Is this also included in the Jump 24h ticket costing 7.50 EUR?
> > The website mentiones a Bourget-Brussels Airport section
> > http://www.stib-mivb.be/1-jour-dag.html?l=en
> > 
> > But if I check the website of the train, then it says I should get a 
> > Standard ticket for 8,60 EUR. Why would it suggest that if I could go for 
> > Jump with 7,50? Sounds like it is not included.
> > 
> > http://www.belgianrail.be/en/travel-tickets/which-is-the-right-ticket-for-me.aspx
> > 
> > Is the Jump ticket maybe not valid for trains? Is it valid for the bus 
> > lines to the airport only?
> > 
> > Would be great is a seasoned Brussels traveler can give some details.
> > 
> > Thanks, and see you at SOTM,
> >   
> 
> You will have a yes answer there : 
> https://www.stib-mivb.be/1-jour-dag.html?l=en
> 
> From Bruxelles
> 
> See you maybe there,
> 
> Christian Rogel

SNCB=NBMS, the train operator in the whole of Belgium
STIB=MIVB, Brussels' bus, tram and metro operator
TEC, Wallonia's bus, tram and metro operator, also active in Brussels
De Lijn, Flanders' bus, tram and metro operator, also active in Brussels

Although I'm not familiar with JUMP passes, according to the SNCB/NMBS they are 
valid on all public transport operators I mentioned above: 
http://www.belgianrail.be/en/travel-tickets/passes-cards/jump.aspx

Beware when traveling by train from/to Brussels Airport: you may have to pay an 
additional "Diabolo" fee: 
http://www.belgianrail.be/en/travel-tickets/tickets/diabolo-fee-to-airport/no-diabolo.aspx.
 As far as I can see, you have to pay it when using a JUMP pass.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] SOTM Brussels public transport info

[Christian Rogel]

Le 21 sept. 2016 à 22:31, Stephan Knauss  a écrit :
> 
> I am just completing my trip planning to ensure a smooth arrival at SOTM. The 
> Brussels public transport leaves me a bit uncertain.
> 
> I will arrive at Brussels Airport.
> 
> The trip planner suggests to take a train 3737 to Bruxelles Nord.
> http://www.stib-mivb.be/reisweg-itineraire.html?l=en
> 
> I wonder: Is this also included in the Jump 24h ticket costing 7.50 EUR?
> The website mentiones a Bourget-Brussels Airport section
> http://www.stib-mivb.be/1-jour-dag.html?l=en
> 
> But if I check the website of the train, then it says I should get a Standard 
> ticket for 8,60 EUR. Why would it suggest that if I could go for Jump with 
> 7,50? Sounds like it is not included.
> 
> http://www.belgianrail.be/en/travel-tickets/which-is-the-right-ticket-for-me.aspx
> 
> Is the Jump ticket maybe not valid for trains? Is it valid for the bus lines 
> to the airport only?
> 
> Would be great is a seasoned Brussels traveler can give some details.
> 
> Thanks, and see you at SOTM,
> 

You will have a yes answer there : https://www.stib-mivb.be/1-jour-dag.html?l=en

From Bruxelles

See you maybe there,

Christian Rogel

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] SOTM Brussels public transport info

[Stephan Knauss]

Hello,

I am just completing my trip planning to ensure a smooth arrival at 
SOTM. The Brussels public transport leaves me a bit uncertain.


I will arrive at Brussels Airport.

The trip planner suggests to take a train 3737 to Bruxelles Nord.
http://www.stib-mivb.be/reisweg-itineraire.html?l=en

I wonder: Is this also included in the Jump 24h ticket costing 7.50 EUR?
The website mentiones a Bourget-Brussels Airport section
http://www.stib-mivb.be/1-jour-dag.html?l=en

But if I check the website of the train, then it says I should get a 
Standard ticket for 8,60 EUR. Why would it suggest that if I could go 
for Jump with 7,50? Sounds like it is not included.


http://www.belgianrail.be/en/travel-tickets/which-is-the-right-ticket-for-me.aspx

Is the Jump ticket maybe not valid for trains? Is it valid for the bus 
lines to the airport only?


Would be great is a seasoned Brussels traveler can give some details.

Thanks, and see you at SOTM,

Stephan

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk-be] Brussels - expansion of the pedestrian zone in the Pentagon of Brussels

[Pierre Parmentier]

Some work for OSM mappers.

For info, have a look at:

   - http://www.brussels.be/artdet.cfm?id=8659
   -
   
http://plandecirculation.be/sites/default/files/plan_pentagone_fr_1504_2_0.pdf

Pierre P.
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

[OSM-talk-be] Brussels - expansion of the pedestrian zone in the Pentagon of Brussels

[Philippe Casteleyn]

; charset=utf-8
 
 Well, I'll certainly attend. If you need help with translation to Dutch or
 English or if there is some other background job you think I can do, just
 let me know.
 
 Polyglot
 
 2015-06-25 9:49 GMT+02:00 Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com:
 
  Hey,
 
  Thanks for the enthousiasm! :-) I'm equally if not more excited about this!
 
  If you want to be involved in any way in the organization, volunteering,
  communication, ... let us know!
 
  Met vriendelijke groeten,
  Best regards,
 
  Ben Abelshausen
 
  On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 9:20 PM, althio althio.fo...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Yaaah!
 
  Congratulations and best wishes of success!
 
  I hope I will be able to help as an individual and/or through the french
  community.
 
  - althio
  On Jun 20, 2015 8:09 PM, Ben Abelshausen ben.abelshau...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
  Hi all,
 
  I'm very happy to announce that State of the map is coming to Belgium
  next year:
 
  https://2016.stateofthemap.org
 
  Let us know if you want to be involved, have ideas, ... We have the
  ambition to make this the best SOTM ever in Europe!
 
  Spread the word among all friends, mappers, clients, whatever...!!
 
  Cheers,
 
  Ben
 
 
 
 
 
 
  --
  Met vriendelijke groeten,
  Best regards,
 
  Ben Abelshausen
 
 
  ___
  Talk-be mailing list
  Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
 
 
  ___
  Talk-be mailing list
  Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
 
 
 
  ___
  Talk-be mailing list
  Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
 
 
 -- next part --
 An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
 URL: 
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/attachments/20150625/a72034bf/attachment-0001.html
 
 --
 
 Message: 4
 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 13:00:05 +0200
 From: Jo winfi...@gmail.com
 To: OpenStreetMap Belgium talk-be@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-be] Bruxelles centre : nouveau piétonnier
 Message-ID:
   caj6dwmb4vdmmnug18cy86eoajy0tjaelb+hdiodupnve6u+...@mail.gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
 
 Salut Matthieu,
 
 J'attendrai simplement le jour que ça change et puis je commencerais de
 changer petit à petit. Si tu vas préparer des fichiers une semaine à
 l'avance, tu risques d'avoir beaucoup de conflits à resoudre.
 
 Jo
 
 2015-06-24 17:26 GMT+02:00 Matthieu Gaillet mgwebm...@fastmail.fm:
 
  Hello,
 
  Dans quelques jours, le centre-ville de Bruxelles va être bouleversé par
  la mise en place d’un piétonnier, et surtout de la fermeture des axes
  principaux aux voitures et de la mise en place d’un « mini-ring » ou «
   boucle de desserte ».
 
  La majeure partie des changements est déjà connue via le site officiel de
  la Ville : http://plandecirculation.be/
 
  Questions :
 
  1°) pouvons-nous utiliser ces informations pour mettre à jour OSM ?
  Remarquez l’usage de Mapbox au passage !
  2°) est-ce que cela vaut la peine de préparer un changeset et de
  l’uploader dans une petite semaine ?
  3°) est-ce d’autres mappeurs travaillent déjà là-dessus ? Si oui, comment
  coordonner tout ça ? Cette question vaut de manière générale pour tout
  changement d’envergure et planifié...
 
  Merci de vos réponses !
 
  Matthieu
 
  ___
  Talk-be mailing list
  Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
  https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
 
 
 -- next part --
 An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
 URL: 
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/attachments/20150625/8b42875f/attachment-0001.html
 
 --
 
 Message: 5
 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 13:34:51 +0200
 From: Pierre Parmentier pierrecparment...@gmail.com
 To: OSM_talk_be talk-be@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels - expansion of the pedestrian zone in
   the Pentagon of Brussels
 Message-ID:
   CAN-00esD0q779ED2=kE+M+++h1obURH3AcHxaqU=mvk1ona...@mail.gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
 
 Some work for OSM mappers.
 
 For info, have a look at:
 
- http://www.brussels.be/artdet.cfm?id=8659
-

 http://plandecirculation.be/sites/default/files/plan_pentagone_fr_1504_2_0.pdf
 
 Pierre P.
 -- next part --
 An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
 URL: 
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/attachments/20150625/507c9663/attachment-0001.html
 
 --
 
 Subject: Digest Footer
 
 ___
 Talk-be mailing list
 Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
 
 
 --
 
 End of Talk-be Digest, Vol 90, Issue 26

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels - expansion of the pedestrian zone in the Pentagon of Brussels

[Matthieu Gaillet]

I just started to work on this yesterday evening. I’ve done the perimeter 
between and comprising Porte d’Anderlecht, Parking 58, De Brouckere, Bourse, 
rue du midi, Lemonnier.

Maybe we should decide who works on given areas. Philippe, Pierre, where do you 
want to work ?

Matthieu


 On 25 Jun 2015, at 16:06, Matthieu Gaillet matth...@gaillet.be wrote:
 
 
 I just started to work on this yesterday evening. I’ve done the perimeter 
 between and comprising Porte d’Anderlecht, Parking 58, De Brouckere, Bourse, 
 rue du midi, Lemonnier.
 
 Maybe we should decide who works on given areas. Philippe, Pierre, where do 
 you want to work ?
 
 Matthieu
 
 
 
 On 25 Jun 2015, at 13:34, Pierre Parmentier pierrecparment...@gmail.com 
 mailto:pierrecparment...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Some work for OSM mappers.
 
 For info, have a look at:
 http://www.brussels.be/artdet.cfm?id=8659 
 http://www.brussels.be/artdet.cfm?id=8659
 http://plandecirculation.be/sites/default/files/plan_pentagone_fr_1504_2_0.pdf
  
 http://plandecirculation.be/sites/default/files/plan_pentagone_fr_1504_2_0.pdf
 Pierre P.
 ___
 Talk-be mailing list
 Talk-be@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
 

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels by bicycle

[Ben Abelshausen]

Hi Nicolas, All,

Thumbs up for organizing this! :-) I will help with everything you need in
anyway I can!

I'm at a client at the moment and all social-network related stuff is
blocked so I can't even plan the meetup ;-) That reminds me: we have one
tonight in Antwerp!

I will also try to make on the 25th but chances are slim because me and
Jorieke are moving parttime to Mali and I will probably not be in Belgium
at that time. I did submit the survey because it seemed to be about both
organizing (help) and attending.

Met vriendelijke groeten,
Best regards,

Ben Abelshausen
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels by bicycle

[Nicolas Pettiaux]

Hello Ben,

Much thanks for the mail and help.

Thumbs up for organizing this! :-) I will help with everything you 
need in anyway I can!

thanks


I'm at a client at the moment and all social-network related stuff is 
blocked so I can't even plan the meetup ;-) That reminds me: we have 
one tonight in Antwerp!
please advertise the one of April 25. Brussels is not that far from 
Antwerp ;-)


I will also try to make on the 25th but chances are slim because me 
and Jorieke are moving parttime to Mali and I will probably not be in 
Belgium at that time. I did submit the survey because it seemed to be 
about both organizing (help) and attending.
indeed. Your help on these subjects is great. We'll see eacho othe on 
Monday in Namur. I'll represent there CC.


Met vriendelijke groeten,
Best regards,
Cordialement,

Nicolas
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels by bicycle

[Nicolas Pettiaux]

Dear all,

I have added some info in the wiki about the proposal :
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Belgium/Activities#Mapping_party_in_Brussels_-_Saturday_25_April_2015.2C_9h_till_13h

Do not hesitate to add ideas and yourself on the program. We need to 
have enough experienced mappers to teach and accompany the new mappers. 
We also need to have Flemisch, French and English speakers, as I expect 
and would like to have visitors speaking at least these 3 languages.


Yes, any help with the setup of a meetup is welcome. I'll see Ben on 
Monday in Namur and talk with him.


I hope to see you Ivo,

THanks

NP


___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels by bicycle

[Ivo van den Maagdenberg]

Top! I would be interested to join. Please propose a date and location
in the near future (3-4 weeks horizon)

You might contact Ben Abelshausen to assist you in getting the news out.
There were some Meetups the last months that he successfully organised.

Op 13-02-15 om 09:19 schreef nico...@pettiaux.be:
  
 
 Le 2015-02-13 8:58, Jo a écrit : 
 
 http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20150212_01525728 [1]

 both hilarious and incredibly sad at the same time. It's not that they're 
 not trying. Bicycle infrastructure has improved a lot over the past 10 
 years, but not quite there yet.
 
 indeed. As a daily cyclist, I encounter many such situations. 
 
 I am willing to organize soon a cycling map day in Brussels to improve
 the Brussels cycling map and spot such locations that need attention.
 Who would be willing to participate ? 
 
 have a good day, 
 
 Nicolas 
 
 Links:
 --
 [1] http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20150212_01525728
 
 
 
 ___
 Talk-be mailing list
 Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
 

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels by bicycle

[Maarten Deen]

On 2015-02-13 08:58, Jo wrote:

http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20150212_01525728 [1]

both hilarious and incredibly sad at the same time. It's not that
they're not trying. Bicycle infrastructure has improved a lot over the
past 10 years, but not quite there yet.

I'm confident this will become another 'belgenmop' in The
Netherlands...


I think the belgenmop will be that all belgian cyclists are blind.
Seriously, after seeing him fall 3 times I got the message: don't be 
blind and ride a bicycle. Look where you're going.


Bicycleinfrastructure seems bad there (and is, even in Limburg which 
purports to be _the_ cyclearea of Belgium) but I see no difference with 
Germany.

And I've never bumped into anything there.
In some ways it is even better then in the Netherlands. The major 
obstacles over here are the other cyclists and they are a lot more 
unpredictable than stationary objects.


Maarten

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels by bicycle

[nicolas]

 

Le 2015-02-13 8:58, Jo a écrit : 

 http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20150212_01525728 [1]
 
 both hilarious and incredibly sad at the same time. It's not that they're not 
 trying. Bicycle infrastructure has improved a lot over the past 10 years, but 
 not quite there yet.

indeed. As a daily cyclist, I encounter many such situations. 

I am willing to organize soon a cycling map day in Brussels to improve
the Brussels cycling map and spot such locations that need attention.
Who would be willing to participate ? 

have a good day, 

Nicolas 

Links:
--
[1] http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20150212_01525728
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels by bicycle

[Karel Adams]

Lang geleden dat ik zo'n belachelijk filmke had gezien. Als alle 
Brusselse fietsers zo stom waren als hier wordt voorgesteld zou ik 
voorstander zijn om fietsen in de stad absoluut en totaal te verbieden, 
tot nut van 't gemeen. Gelukkig weet ik wel beter.


Wat denkt men toch te bereiken op deze manier? Ik vind het enkel 
contraproductief.


Verder zijn het niet alleen de fietsers die van de overheid - in Brussel 
en elders - gekke situaties voorgeschoteld krijgen. Wanneer een 
bekwaamheidsdiploma voor planners en architecten van openbare 
infrastructuur? Met periodieke evaluatie?




On 13-02-15 07:58, Jo wrote:

http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20150212_01525728

both hilarious and incredibly sad at the same time. It's not that 
they're not trying. Bicycle infrastructure has improved a lot over the 
past 10 years, but not quite there yet.


I'm confident this will become another 'belgenmop' in The Netherlands...


___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be


___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels by bicycle

[Jo]

Het is natuurlijk bedoeld om wat misstanden aan te kaarten. 't Zal wel
opgelost geraken.

Helemaal te gek vond ik dat hij blijkbaar z'n fiets over dat hek moest
tillen. Cross in zhe Brousse L :-)

Jo

Op 13 februari 2015 17:37 schreef Karel Adams fa348...@skynet.be:

  Lang geleden dat ik zo'n belachelijk filmke had gezien. Als alle
 Brusselse fietsers zo stom waren als hier wordt voorgesteld zou ik
 voorstander zijn om fietsen in de stad absoluut en totaal te verbieden, tot
 nut van 't gemeen. Gelukkig weet ik wel beter.

 Wat denkt men toch te bereiken op deze manier? Ik vind het enkel
 contraproductief.

 Verder zijn het niet alleen de fietsers die van de overheid - in Brussel
 en elders - gekke situaties voorgeschoteld krijgen. Wanneer een
 bekwaamheidsdiploma voor planners en architecten van openbare
 infrastructuur? Met periodieke evaluatie?




 On 13-02-15 07:58, Jo wrote:

  http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20150212_01525728

  both hilarious and incredibly sad at the same time. It's not that they're
 not trying. Bicycle infrastructure has improved a lot over the past 10
 years, but not quite there yet.

  I'm confident this will become another 'belgenmop' in The Netherlands...


 ___
 Talk-be mailing 
 listTalk-be@openstreetmap.orghttps://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be



___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

[OSM-talk-be] Brussels by bicycle

[Jo]

http://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20150212_01525728

both hilarious and incredibly sad at the same time. It's not that they're
not trying. Bicycle infrastructure has improved a lot over the past 10
years, but not quite there yet.

I'm confident this will become another 'belgenmop' in The Netherlands...
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels Geoportal: more open data?

[Jo]

Hi Benoit,

There is indeed more data. It is all available as shape files. The tram
rails have a bit too much detail though. They are the actual rails, so half
of them need to be removed, then the other one needs to be moved so it is
in the middle.

There also the bus shelters, all the garbage cans, even the positions of
the poles of the bus/tram stops, the pharmacies (with name, not address).

I forget what else there was. Let me know what interests you and I'll
convert it to an osm file based on the latest version, so you can
import/integrate it.

Polyglot


2014-03-11 12:06 GMT+01:00 Benoit Leseul benoit.les...@gmail.com:

 Hi everyone,

 Did someone took a look to the new Geoportal from the Brussels region?
 http://www.cirb.irisnet.be/fr/blog/2014/03/un-geoportail-cela-vous-inspire

 It seems they link to more open data than the Urbis building shapes we
 have.

 For example, if I search for transport in the catalogue, I find
 references to other data like car parks, cycling infrastructure and
 network, taxi and collecto stops, pedestrian and residential areas,
 tramway rails, metro tunnels and so on.

 http://www.geo.irisnet.be/en/catalogue/

 I'm not sure there is a way to get the data other than scrapping from
 the webservices, but we should definately try.

 --
 Benoit

 ___
 Talk-be mailing list
 Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

[OSM-talk-be] Brussels Geoportal: more open data?

[Benoit Leseul]

Hi everyone,

Did someone took a look to the new Geoportal from the Brussels region?
http://www.cirb.irisnet.be/fr/blog/2014/03/un-geoportail-cela-vous-inspire

It seems they link to more open data than the Urbis building shapes we have.

For example, if I search for transport in the catalogue, I find
references to other data like car parks, cycling infrastructure and
network, taxi and collecto stops, pedestrian and residential areas,
tramway rails, metro tunnels and so on.

http://www.geo.irisnet.be/en/catalogue/

I'm not sure there is a way to get the data other than scrapping from
the webservices, but we should definately try.

-- 
Benoit

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels and Belgium

[Wouter Hamelinck]

 Please note that 129 is about languages.  It basicly doesn't allow
 the communities to say what language should be used in Brussels
 because it's bilingual.

And 127 is about another (larger) set of competences. The important
point: none of them defines the communities as a geographic region.

 Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I have always had a problem with
 mapping the communities in the first place since they are about
 the person and not the land.

Totally agree with that.

 But there are people that want to
 map that.  And if we're going to map them than we should try to do
 it as correctly as possible.

The most correct way would be the map the French speaking schools in
Brussels as part of the French community and the Dutch speaking
schools as part of the Flemish community. Same for theaters and the
like. So you should decide on a building by building basis to which
community it belongs. And most buildings won't belong to a community.
I leave doing that to those people that want to map that.

wouter

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels and Belgium

[Ben Laenen]

On Monday 25 November 2013 23:37:41 Kurt Roeckx wrote:
 There should be a hole in the language area (which we don't have)
 and the region
 (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/53134), which seems
 to be the case, and you can argue about the communitie
 (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/53136)

You can't really argue, the constition is pretty clear that the Brussels-
Capital-Region belongs to both French and Flemish Communities. Brussels is 
even the capital from both communities.

Ben


___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels and Belgium

[Wouter Hamelinck]

 Article 127 defines the Dutch-speaking community as covering the
 Dutch language area plus the Bilingual Brussels-Capital area, and
 the French-speaking community as covering the French language area
 and Bilingual Brussels-Capital area.  So the Bilingual
 Brussels-Capital is covered by 2 communities.

That's not what my copy of the constitution says. In my version that
article defines where the community has something to say. For Brussels
it says that institutions that should be considered part of a
community should follow the decrees of that community.
For instance, a Dutch-speaking school should follow the decrees of the
Flemish Community, while a French speaking school should follow those
of the French community. It does NOT define a geographic extent of the
communities (André is correct that they don't have a geographical
definition). It only limits the geographical region of competence for
the communities but does not imply that everything in that region (in
particular in the Brussels part of the geographical region) belongs to
a certain community.

If you really want to use it as a geographical definition for the
communities, why would you use the one from art127 and not the ones
from articles 128 or 129? Especially 129 doesn't mention Brussels.

wouter

-- 
Den som ikke tror på seg selv kommer ingen vei.
   - Thor Heyerdahl

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels and Belgium

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 02:08:02PM +0100, Ben Laenen wrote:
 On Monday 25 November 2013 23:37:41 Kurt Roeckx wrote:
  There should be a hole in the language area (which we don't have)
  and the region
  (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/53134), which seems
  to be the case, and you can argue about the communitie
  (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/53136)
 
 You can't really argue, the constition is pretty clear that the Brussels-
 Capital-Region belongs to both French and Flemish Communities.

So the Dutch-speaking community is the Dutch language area with the hole
in it for Brussels, and then you add Brussels again and you end up
with that hole filled.  So you can map this as:
- Start with the language area which has the hole in it, and
  add Brussels to it.  So you start with the complete thing
  and substrct and add the same piece of land.
- Don't bother will all the adding and substracting, which 
  is like it's now.



Kurt


___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels and Belgium

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 02:57:05PM +0100, Wouter Hamelinck wrote:
 If you really want to use it as a geographical definition for the
 communities, why would you use the one from art127 and not the ones
 from articles 128 or 129? Especially 129 doesn't mention Brussels.

Please note that 129 is about languages.  It basicly doesn't allow
the communities to say what language should be used in Brussels
because it's bilingual.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I have always had a problem with
mapping the communities in the first place since they are about
the person and not the land.  But there are people that want to
map that.  And if we're going to map them than we should try to do
it as correctly as possible.


Kurt


___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels and Belgium

[Julien Fastré]

Le 26/11/13 19:06, Kurt Roeckx a écrit :

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I have always had a problem with
mapping the communities in the first place since they are about
the person and not the land.  But there are people that want to
map that.  And if we're going to map them than we should try to do
it as correctly as possible.
I do agree with Kurt: Communities are concerned with people, Regio with 
things related to the ground. It make sense to map Regio's: it's a 
territory, we may touch it, sense it. This is not the case with communities.


If some people want to map them, I think we should use different key 
than those existing now; they are not appropriated and we are, maybe, an 
unique case in the world.


Julien



___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels

[Marc Gemis]

from http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nominatim/Development_overview

During the indexing process an address is also calculated using the first
feature found for each level.

this probably explains why the address of Brussels is in only one community.



On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 4:27 PM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.comwrote:

  On 2013-11-13 12:18, Marc Gemis wrote :

 Can someone please tell me how I can properly tag this POI
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/237662466 ?

  It's a shop located in the Pierstraat in Reet. The building has an
 addr:street tag and is part of an associatedStreet relation. However
 Nominatim (and openlinkmap) places it in the Pierstraat - Matenstraat. Do a
 look-up for Vero Golf on osm.org

 Would anyone mind so little? ;-)

 Brussels: *Village* Boundary Brussels, Ville de Bruxelles,
 Brussels-Capital, *French Community*, Brussels-Capital Region, 1000;1040,
 Belgiumhttp://www.openstreetmap.org/?minlon=4.33549880981445minlat=50.7964057922363maxlon=4.40201187133789maxlat=50.8904113769531

 Nominatim locates that village in the French Community !!!
 And nobody seems to care !!!

  ...
 Territorialité des 
 langueshttps://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communaut%C3%A9s_de_Belgique#Territorialit.C3.A9_des_langues

 La Constitution belge a prévu, en son article 
 4https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_4_de_la_Constitution_belge,
 *quatre **régions linguistiques
 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9gions_linguistiques_de_Belgique* :
 la région de langue néerlandaise, la région de Bruxelles-Capitale (bilingue
 français-néerlandais), la région de langue française et la région de langue
 allemande (la plupart des communes des Cantons de 
 l'Esthttps://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_de_l%27Est_%28Belgique%29).
 Ces quatre zones délimitent les territoires où chaque langue est la langue
 officielle, avec en plus trente communes situées près des frontières
 linguistiques où des minorités historiques bénéficient de facilités
 linguistiques https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facilit%C3%A9s_linguistiques
 .

 Les Communautés ne représentent donc pas directement l'ensemble des
 personnes parlant une des langues officielles, mais les habitants des
 différentes régions linguistiques.


  Gemeenschap 
 (België)https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeenschap_%28Belgi%C3%AB%29

 Een *gemeenschap* is een *persoonsgebonden overheid* in 
 Belgiëhttps://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgi%C3%AB
 .

 ...

 *Alle Belgen* vallen onder een van de volgende drie taalgemeenschappen ...

 ...
 Brussel

 *Brussel is officieel tweetalig*, behorend tot zowel de Vlaamse en Franse
 gemeenschap...


 The issue seems clear to me, especially in French.
 We have 3 kinds of persons according to the official language they speak,
 but we have *4 territories* one of which is bilingual in the sense that
 their people can choose between two languages. behorend tot zowel is
 ambiguous: it should made clear that it speaks of the persons and not the
 territories.
 But that's obvious. A territory cannot be inside 2 disjoint territories,
 and that's the problem...
 As OSM is obviously drawing territories, the communities do not fit in
 relations, these must contain territories

 As nobody cares, as I am presently involved in Brussels modifications, and
 as I know boundaries well, I can do that:
 - add a 4th territory aka community for Brussels.
 The only problem is how to name it.
 The three territories are called:

 Flemish Community, Communauté flamande, Vlaamse Gemeenschap, Flämische
 Gemeinschaft
 French Community, Communauté française, Franse Gemeenschap, Französische
 Gemeinschaft
 German-speaking Community, Communauté germanophone, Duitstalige
 Gemeenschap, Deutschsprachige Gemeinschaft

 They should normally not be called territories, but I'm not going to start
 a misunderstood revolution.
 Brussels' Community? Bilingual Community?

  I know this is a complex street that starts as Pierstraat in Reet/Rumst
 in the east ,...

 I know it's a complex country that starts as Pierstraat in the west, ...
 :-)

 Cheers,
 Cordialement,

   André.

 ___
 Talk-be mailing list
 Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be


___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels

[André Pirard]

On 2013-11-13 18:12, Marc Gemis wrote :

 On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 4:27 PM, André Pirard
 a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com wrote:

 Would anyone mind so little? ;-)


 Because I promised to write some guidelines for the import of AGIV
 addresses, I want to know what I should write. I also think my problem
 is more common than yours. By this I mean that it show be obvious to
 any mapper to tag a POI so that it's address is returned correctly.
Don't take it bad. I was only joking, of course ( ;-) ). Sorry if I hurt
you. I sympathize with your work!
But I explained the problems I see in a previous message without any answer.

I was going to ask you how can one find the associatedStreet of a
street or of a house? not using overpass.
It's important to find it to use it and to not make a second one isn't it?
And how do I find yours?
I'm back home and I was going to look at your problem, but I see you're
generously helped already.
On to the Philippines.
 Maybe Belgium is unique regarding its administrative borders.
 Although the Germans also have problems with cities such as Hamburg,
 because it misses an administrative layer (see talk mailing list of
 the past 2 weeks). And in India they have a problem with their country
 borders

 All those problems are important to a group of people, but they are
 all exceptions to the general rules. So maybe we should just take up
 all those complaints with the Nominatim developers, because they might
 not be aware of all those exceptions.
If you're talking of Florian Lohoff's problem, I wanted to show/explain
him the Belgian boundaries, but I refrained because of the errors in them.
Let us correct the errors first ans see if anything remains to be said
to Nominatim.

Cheers,

André.


___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

[OSM-talk-be] Brussels

[André Pirard]

On 2013-11-13 12:18, Marc Gemis wrote :
 Can someone please tell me how I can properly tag this
 POI http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/237662466 ?

 It's a shop located in the Pierstraat in Reet. The building has an
 addr:street tag and is part of an associatedStreet relation. However
 Nominatim (and openlinkmap) places it in the Pierstraat - Matenstraat.
 Do a look-up for Vero Golf on osm.org http://osm.org
Would anyone mind so little? ;-)
 Brussels: *Village* Boundary Brussels, Ville de Bruxelles,
 Brussels-Capital, *French Community*, Brussels-Capital Region,
 1000;1040, Belgium
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/?minlon=4.33549880981445minlat=50.7964057922363maxlon=4.40201187133789maxlat=50.8904113769531
Nominatim locates that village in the French Community !!!
And nobody seems to care !!!


 ...
 Territorialité des langues
 
 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communaut%C3%A9s_de_Belgique#Territorialit.C3.A9_des_langues

 La Constitution belge a prévu, en son article 4
 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_4_de_la_Constitution_belge,
 _*quatre *__*régions linguistiques
 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9gions_linguistiques_de_Belgique*_ :
 la région de langue néerlandaise, la région de Bruxelles-Capitale
 (bilingue français-néerlandais), la région de langue française et la
 région de langue allemande (la plupart des communes des Cantons de
 l'Est
 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_de_l%27Est_%28Belgique%29).
 Ces quatre zones délimitent les territoires où chaque langue est la
 langue officielle, avec en plus trente communes situées près des
 frontières linguistiques où des minorités historiques bénéficient de
 facilités linguistiques
 https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facilit%C3%A9s_linguistiques.

 Les Communautés ne représentent donc pas directement l'ensemble des
 personnes parlant une des langues officielles, mais les habitants des
 différentes régions linguistiques.


   Gemeenschap (België)
   https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeenschap_%28Belgi%C3%AB%29

 Een *gemeenschap* is een /_*persoonsgebonden*_ overheid/ in België
 https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgi%C3%AB.

 ...

 _*Alle Belgen*_ vallen onder een van de volgende drie
 taalgemeenschappen ...

 ...


 Brussel

 _*Brussel is officieel tweetalig*_, behorend tot zowel de Vlaamse en
 Franse gemeenschap...


The issue seems clear to me, especially in French.
We have 3 kinds of persons according to the official language they
speak, but we have *4 territories* one of which is bilingual in the
sense that their people can choose between two languages. behorend tot
zowel is ambiguous: it should made clear that it speaks of the persons
and not the territories.
But that's obvious. A territory cannot be inside 2 disjoint territories,
and that's the problem...
As OSM is obviously drawing territories, the communities do not fit in
relations, these must contain territories

As nobody cares, as I am presently involved in Brussels modifications,
and as I know boundaries well, I can do that:
- add a 4th territory aka community for Brussels.
The only problem is how to name it.
The three territories are called:

Flemish Community, Communauté flamande, Vlaamse Gemeenschap, Flämische
Gemeinschaft
French Community, Communauté française, Franse Gemeenschap, Französische
Gemeinschaft
German-speaking Community, Communauté germanophone, Duitstalige
Gemeenschap, Deutschsprachige Gemeinschaft

They should normally not be called territories, but I'm not going to
start a misunderstood revolution.
Brussels' Community? Bilingual Community?
 I know this is a complex street that starts as Pierstraat in
 Reet/Rumst in the east ,...
I know it's a complex country that starts as Pierstraat in the west, ... :-)

Cheers,
Cordialement,

André.


___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels

[Gerard Vanderveken]

 The only problem is how to name it.
The three territories are called:

Flemish Community, Communauté flamande, Vlaamse Gemeenschap, Flämische 
Gemeinschaft
French Community, Communauté française, Franse Gemeenschap, 
Französische Gemeinschaft
German-speaking Community, Communauté germanophone, Duitstalige 
Gemeenschap, Deutschsprachige Gemeinschaft


They should normally not be called territories, but I'm not going to 
start a misunderstood revolution.

Brussels' Community? Bilingual Community?



I think it should be Bilingual Community, because
- that border level refers to the languages and Brussels is not (an 
official one)
- it's a neutral description and does not favourite one of the languages 
as else one of them should be mentioned first.
A note could explain that the community is part of both, but is mapped 
seperatly, because of the limitations of OSM.


Regards,
Gerard.

André Pirard wrote:


On 2013-11-13 12:18, Marc Gemis wrote :

Can someone please tell me how I can properly tag this 
POI http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/237662466 ?


It's a shop located in the Pierstraat in Reet. The building has an 
addr:street tag and is part of an associatedStreet relation. However 
Nominatim (and openlinkmap) places it in the Pierstraat - 
Matenstraat. Do a look-up for Vero Golf on osm.org http://osm.org


Would anyone mind so little? ;-)

Brussels: Village Boundary Brussels, Ville de Bruxelles, 
Brussels-Capital, French Community, Brussels-Capital Region, 
1000;1040, Belgium 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?minlon=4.33549880981445minlat=50.7964057922363maxlon=4.40201187133789maxlat=50.8904113769531


Nominatim locates that village in the French Community !!!
And nobody seems to care !!!



...
Territorialité des langues

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communaut%C3%A9s_de_Belgique#Territorialit.C3.A9_des_langues

La Constitution belge a prévu, en son article 4 
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_4_de_la_Constitution_belge, 
quatre régions linguistiques 
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9gions_linguistiques_de_Belgique : 
la région de langue néerlandaise, la région de Bruxelles-Capitale 
(bilingue français-néerlandais), la région de langue française et la 
région de langue allemande (la plupart des communes des Cantons de 
l'Est 
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_de_l%27Est_%28Belgique%29). 
Ces quatre zones délimitent les territoires où chaque langue est la 
langue officielle, avec en plus trente communes situées près des 
frontières linguistiques où des minorités historiques bénéficient de 
facilités linguistiques 
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facilit%C3%A9s_linguistiques.


Les Communautés ne représentent donc pas directement l'ensemble des 
personnes parlant une des langues officielles, mais les habitants des 
différentes régions linguistiques.





  Gemeenschap (België)
  https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gemeenschap_%28Belgi%C3%AB%29

Een gemeenschap is een persoonsgebonden overheid in België 
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgi%C3%AB.


...

Alle Belgen vallen onder een van de volgende drie taalgemeenschappen ...

...


Brussel

Brussel is officieel tweetalig, behorend tot zowel de Vlaamse en 
Franse gemeenschap...




The issue seems clear to me, especially in French.
We have 3 kinds of persons according to the official language they 
speak, but we have 4 territories one of which is bilingual in the 
sense that their people can choose between two languages. behorend 
tot zowel is ambiguous: it should made clear that it speaks of the 
persons and not the territories.
But that's obvious. A territory cannot be inside 2 disjoint 
territories, and that's the problem...
As OSM is obviously drawing territories, the communities do not fit in 
relations, these must contain territories


As nobody cares, as I am presently involved in Brussels modifications, 
and as I know boundaries well, I can do that:

- add a 4th territory aka community for Brussels.
The only problem is how to name it.
The three territories are called:

Flemish Community, Communauté flamande, Vlaamse Gemeenschap, Flämische 
Gemeinschaft
French Community, Communauté française, Franse Gemeenschap, 
Französische Gemeinschaft
German-speaking Community, Communauté germanophone, Duitstalige 
Gemeenschap, Deutschsprachige Gemeinschaft


They should normally not be called territories, but I'm not going to 
start a misunderstood revolution.

Brussels' Community? Bilingual Community?

I know this is a complex street that starts as Pierstraat in 
Reet/Rumst in the east ,...


I know it's a complex country that starts as Pierstraat in the west, 
... :-)


Cheers,
Cordialement,

André.




___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
 

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels

[Ben Laenen]

On Wednesday 13 November 2013 16:27:11 André Pirard wrote:
 The issue seems clear to me, especially in French.
 We have 3 kinds of persons according to the official language they
 speak, but we have *4 territories* one of which is bilingual in the
 sense that their people can choose between two languages. behorend tot
 zowel is ambiguous: it should made clear that it speaks of the persons
 and not the territories.
 But that's obvious. A territory cannot be inside 2 disjoint territories,
 and that's the problem...
 As OSM is obviously drawing territories, the communities do not fit in
 relations, these must contain territories
 
 As nobody cares, as I am presently involved in Brussels modifications,
 and as I know boundaries well, I can do that:
 - add a 4th territory aka community for Brussels.

Please don't make up names. There's no Brussels community so don't invent one. 
The one thing I now agree with is getting the communities out of the 
administrative boundaries, if only to please software that gets its mind blown 
when it belongs to two entities of the same kind at once.

But that seems to have happened anyway already, see 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/78967 . You just have to wait 
until nominatim has updated its database.

Greetings,
Ben


___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels

[Marc Gemis]

On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 4:27 PM, André Pirard a.pirard.pa...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 2013-11-13 12:18, Marc Gemis wrote :

 Can someone please tell me how I can properly tag this POI
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/237662466 ?

  It's a shop located in the Pierstraat in Reet. The building has an
 addr:street tag and is part of an associatedStreet relation. However
 Nominatim (and openlinkmap) places it in the Pierstraat - Matenstraat. Do a
 look-up for Vero Golf on osm.org

 Would anyone mind so little? ;-)


Because I promised to write some guidelines for the import of AGIV
addresses, I want to know what I should write. I also think my problem is
more common than yours. By this I mean that it show be obvious to any
mapper to tag a POI so that it's address is returned correctly.

Maybe Belgium is unique regarding its administrative borders. Although
the Germans also have problems with cities such as Hamburg, because it
misses an administrative layer (see talk mailing list of the past 2 weeks).
And in India they have a problem with their country borders

All those problems are important to a group of people, but they are all
exceptions to the general rules. So maybe we should just take up all those
complaints with the Nominatim developers, because they might not be aware
of all those exceptions.

m

m
___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 06:12:30PM +0100, Marc Gemis wrote:
 All those problems are important to a group of people, but they are all
 exceptions to the general rules. So maybe we should just take up all those
 complaints with the Nominatim developers, because they might not be aware
 of all those exceptions.

There are already various bugs open with no reaction.  It's not
because nominatim gets it wrong that we should change something.


Kurt


___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels

[Marc Gemis]

I'll agree with that, if it's correctly tagged, we should not change it.
But how do we know that it is tagged correctly, if there is no place to see
it in action?

m


On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Kurt Roeckx k...@roeckx.be wrote:

 On Wed, Nov 13, 2013 at 06:12:30PM +0100, Marc Gemis wrote:
  All those problems are important to a group of people, but they are all
  exceptions to the general rules. So maybe we should just take up all
 those
  complaints with the Nominatim developers, because they might not be aware
  of all those exceptions.

 There are already various bugs open with no reaction.  It's not
 because nominatim gets it wrong that we should change something.


 Kurt


 ___
 Talk-be mailing list
 Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

[OSM-talk-be] Brussels urbis data and OSM

[Nicolas Pettiaux]

Dear All

Urbis (http://www.cirb.irisnet.be/phare/departements/services/urbis)
is the official GIS data in Brussels, maintained by CIRB :

Les produits Brussels UrbIS®© (Brussels Urban Information System)
constituent un ensemble cohérent de bases de données cartographiques
et alphanumériques propres au territoire de la Région de
Bruxelles-Capitale.

I wonder if the licence (here in Fr and Nl
http://www.cirb.irisnet.be/departements/services/urbis/acces-aux-donnees
http://www.cibg.irisnet.be/operationele-departementen/diensten/urbis/acces-aux-donnees?set_language=nl
) is compatible with OSM, whether for import of the Urbis data, event
some of it, or just for comparison, to make sure OSM contains all the
Urbis data.

I think the last case is *not* discribed int the licence. What is your
inderstanding ?

Tomorrow (Friday June 15) I attend a meeting http://ymlp.com/z2OA3s in
Brussels related to Colloque Les Villes à l'heure du numérique that
is especially related to OpenData too. The boss of Cirb (Hervé
Feuillien) whom I know personnally will be there and speak. I would
like to ask him some questions like :

1/ Qui s'occupe de la gestion des données URBIS ?

2/ Pensez-vous qu'il soit possible de les obtenir avec une licence
compatible avec la licence de OpenStreetMap (OSM) pour les utiliser ?
Soit les intégrer soit au minimum voir les différences pour que nous
puissions travailler à améliorer OSM pour qu'il colle à Urbis ?

Any other idea will be welcome.

Bart Rosseau, expert e-stratégie de la Ville de Gand, will speak about
Open Data à Gand.
Perhaps could I ask similar questions for Gent provided you give me
any useful info about Gent.

Thanks,

Nicolas


-- 
Nicolas Pettiaux

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels urbis data and OSM

[Sander Deryckere]

For the current licence, I read the license file, and it allows you to use
the data for any purpose, but you're not allowed to spread the data, or
spread the results of what you used the data for.

So you can't import the data into OSM. You also can't compare the data with
OSM and publish the precise results. But you are allowed to compare the
data with OSM and use those results yourself for any purpose (like to get a
list with locations you should check on the ground).

If you are able to write a manual, or even a script you can use to compare
the data to OSM, you can spread that, so it gets accessible to more people.

Oh, and there is one exception for printed results. So if you do the
comparing, you can print the results and hand those to other mappers you
know. Of course, this isn't as handy as providing a GPX with all locations
that should be visited.

Regards,
Sander

2012/6/14 Nicolas Pettiaux nico...@pettiaux.be

 Dear All

 Urbis (http://www.cirb.irisnet.be/phare/departements/services/urbis)
 is the official GIS data in Brussels, maintained by CIRB :

 Les produits Brussels UrbIS®© (Brussels Urban Information System)
 constituent un ensemble cohérent de bases de données cartographiques
 et alphanumériques propres au territoire de la Région de
 Bruxelles-Capitale.

 I wonder if the licence (here in Fr and Nl
 http://www.cirb.irisnet.be/departements/services/urbis/acces-aux-donnees

 http://www.cibg.irisnet.be/operationele-departementen/diensten/urbis/acces-aux-donnees?set_language=nl
 ) is compatible with OSM, whether for import of the Urbis data, event
 some of it, or just for comparison, to make sure OSM contains all the
 Urbis data.

 I think the last case is *not* discribed int the licence. What is your
 inderstanding ?

 Tomorrow (Friday June 15) I attend a meeting http://ymlp.com/z2OA3s in
 Brussels related to Colloque Les Villes à l'heure du numérique that
 is especially related to OpenData too. The boss of Cirb (Hervé
 Feuillien) whom I know personnally will be there and speak. I would
 like to ask him some questions like :

 1/ Qui s'occupe de la gestion des données URBIS ?

 2/ Pensez-vous qu'il soit possible de les obtenir avec une licence
 compatible avec la licence de OpenStreetMap (OSM) pour les utiliser ?
 Soit les intégrer soit au minimum voir les différences pour que nous
 puissions travailler à améliorer OSM pour qu'il colle à Urbis ?

 Any other idea will be welcome.

 Bart Rosseau, expert e-stratégie de la Ville de Gand, will speak about
 Open Data à Gand.
 Perhaps could I ask similar questions for Gent provided you give me
 any useful info about Gent.

 Thanks,

 Nicolas


 --
 Nicolas Pettiaux

 ___
 Talk-be mailing list
 Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels urbis data and OSM

[Wim Crols]

On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 6:52 PM, Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com wrote:
 For the current licence, I read the license file, and it allows you to use
 the data for any purpose, but you're not allowed to spread the data, or
 spread the results of what you used the data for.

 So you can't import the data into OSM. You also can't compare the data with
 OSM and publish the precise results. But you are allowed to compare the data
 with OSM and use those results yourself for any purpose (like to get a list
 with locations you should check on the ground).

 If you are able to write a manual, or even a script you can use to compare
 the data to OSM, you can spread that, so it gets accessible to more people.

 Oh, and there is one exception for printed results. So if you do the
 comparing, you can print the results and hand those to other mappers you
 know. Of course, this isn't as handy as providing a GPX with all locations
 that should be visited.

So techincally, you are allowed to print it in such a manner it would
be easy to have it scanned to make it digital again?
You could print QR codes from the content and scan those again and
you've got your original content!!

With kind regards.

Wim

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels urbis data and OSM

[Sander Deryckere]

Yes, you can print it to qr codes, and scan it again, but the data stays
protected, so you can't share the scanned image, or the data you get out of
the qr code.

It might be handy to get the data from paper on your gps, but it won't help
you with sharing the data.

This is a result of the fact that under sui generis right, any substantial
part of the data is always protected, no matter in what format it is stored
or seen.
Op 14 jun. 2012 21:46 schreef Wim Crols w...@crols.be het volgende:

 On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 6:52 PM, Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  For the current licence, I read the license file, and it allows you to
 use
  the data for any purpose, but you're not allowed to spread the data, or
  spread the results of what you used the data for.
 
  So you can't import the data into OSM. You also can't compare the data
 with
  OSM and publish the precise results. But you are allowed to compare the
 data
  with OSM and use those results yourself for any purpose (like to get a
 list
  with locations you should check on the ground).
 
  If you are able to write a manual, or even a script you can use to
 compare
  the data to OSM, you can spread that, so it gets accessible to more
 people.
 
  Oh, and there is one exception for printed results. So if you do the
  comparing, you can print the results and hand those to other mappers you
  know. Of course, this isn't as handy as providing a GPX with all
 locations
  that should be visited.

 So techincally, you are allowed to print it in such a manner it would
 be easy to have it scanned to make it digital again?
 You could print QR codes from the content and scan those again and
 you've got your original content!!

 With kind regards.

 Wim

 ___
 Talk-be mailing list
 Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels urbis data and OSM

[Nicolas Pettiaux]

2012/6/14 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com:

Thank you very much Sander

 For the current licence, I read the license file, and it allows you to use
 the data for any purpose, but you're not allowed to spread the data, or
 spread the results of what you used the data for.

your reading is very close to mine. And you have got to cite the
source, clearly.

 So you can't import the data into OSM. You also can't compare the data with
 OSM and publish the precise results. But you are allowed to compare the data
 with OSM and use those results yourself for any purpose (like to get a list
 with locations you should check on the ground).

Would you say that, as such the data are indeed, said open but of no
direct or simple use to help improve OSM ... that is already very good
in Brussels ?

Do you see any other simple way for us to use the data, than asking
for another licence ? I know that this process will not be simple or
fast as it will impose at best a revision by some (more than 1)
administrations and private companies (wherein I think belgacom) and
also a goverment decision but the goverment of the Brussels Region. By
I could ask for that.

Regards,

Nicolas
-- 
Nicolas Pettiaux

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be

Re: [OSM-talk-be] Brussels urbis data and OSM

[Nicolas Pettiaux]

2012/6/14 Sander Deryckere sander...@gmail.com:
 I would't call the data open. Open implies the right to adapt and re-share.
 This isn't the case. I would consider this data equal to freeware. Free to
 use, but you don't have other rights.

thanks. Good definition. Simple to understand by decision makers I think.

 I don't know how important or good the data is, so I don't know how much
 work it is worth. But I don't see a simple way for us to use the data.

supposedly, the data is good. Some layer contains the data of the
cadatre, and it is officially used by most administrations in Brussels
Regions.

Thanks again for your help

Regards,

Nicolas
-- 
Nicolas Pettiaux

___
Talk-be mailing list
Talk-be@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be