Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[ael]

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 11:23:34AM +, David Woolley wrote:
> On 25/02/16 17:04, Nick Whitelegg wrote:
> 
> >User can also enter relevant POIs like stiles, gates etc when they are
> >encountered.
> 
> This might have been a good idea in the early days, when most mapping used
> GPS and most mapping was onto an empty map.  These days, I think it would
> just cause problems as it would probably delay the proper association of the
> GPS tracks with, more accurate, aerial imagery data, and would not properly
> account for features that had already been mapped, but possibly on a
> different, or more accurate datum.

While there are many pretty awful gps devices out there, some consumer
gps units can be fairly accurate if used with an understanding of the
technology. I am not happy with the suggestion that aerial imagery is 
more accurate for all the well known reasons of alignment and parallax.
I keep having armchair mappers fouling up accurately surveyed data
with near nonsense, and it is very demotivating.

I sometimes wonder if a source tag indicating some notion of accuracy 
would help, although I am not sure how that could be objective unless it
was using diffferential gps. But my experience of many armchair mappers
is that they just ride roughshod and ignore source tags and the like.
To be fair, the editors don't help with this, and it can be tedious and 
time consuming to review the history of everything before modification.

ael



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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[David Woolley]

On 26/02/16 12:44, Chris Hill wrote:

I disagree. GPS traces can only be found by being on the ground. Aerial
imagery is useful but being there and seeing what is really on the
ground is still the gold standard in my view. Aerial imagery is not
guaranteed to be well aligned, is guaranteed to be be steadily more and
more out of date and gives no clue about what signs say. Mapping by
surveying gives such a good understanding of what is really there that
it is the best way to integrate your new stuff and perhaps correct what
may have been added by the folks who have gone before.


The proposal appeared to be for a tool that only used the GPS traces and 
went straight from them to the database.  My point is that these days 
you need to integrate the GPS traces with the aerial imagery and with 
what is already mapped.


If you don't integrate with the aerial imagery, you will end up with a 
feature with large errors which won't get corrected for a long time 
because people will assume that they do account for all data sources.


If you don't integrate with existing features, you will end up with 
topological errors and possible duplication.


Whilst the GPS tagged ground survey is important, it needs to be 
integrated with the other sources and the only current way of doing that 
well involves the use of wetware and tools that show the other resources.


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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Marc Gemis]

But a gate is some kind of important nagivational point.
I'm pretty sure that when someone removes a bench in my hometown, it
will take me a pretty long time to notice.

m

On Fri, Feb 26, 2016 at 1:42 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 26/02/2016 07:59, Marc Gemis wrote:
>>
>> How do you detect that stuff is gone ? I'm thinking of benches,
>> waste-bins, telephones, etc. All those little things that are not or
>> hardly visible on aerial imagery ?
>> Do you constantly look at the screen of your smartphone or GPS to see
>> whether there is such a "small" thing mapped ?
>>
> The maps I use on both the phone and the Garmin try and make the sorts of
> small things that I'm interested in fairly obvious (on Garmin maps I use the
> Garmin Office "G" symbol for gates, for example, and the map I use on the
> phone goes up to z20 overzoomed to z21, so it's easy to see small details
> there too, and read the text on a small screen).
>
> I still end up marking that (e.g.) "there is a bus stop here" and getting
> home and finding that it's already mapped, though :)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Chris Hill]

On 26/02/16 11:23, David Woolley wrote:

On 25/02/16 17:04, Nick Whitelegg wrote:





User can also enter relevant POIs like stiles, gates etc when they are
encountered.


When user returns home, track simplification algorithm used to make a
way from the GPX trace and tags it with the tags equivalent to the 
ROW type.



User downloads data from OSM and algorithms are used to auto-join the
user's new ways to existing ways where appropriate (or alternatively,
the user does this manually)


This might have been a good idea in the early days, when most mapping 
used GPS and most mapping was onto an empty map.  These days, I think 
it would just cause problems as it would probably delay the proper 
association of the GPS tracks with, more accurate, aerial imagery 
data, and would not properly account for features that had already 
been mapped, but possibly on a different, or more accurate datum.


I disagree. GPS traces can only be found by being on the ground. Aerial 
imagery is useful but being there and seeing what is really on the 
ground is still the gold standard in my view. Aerial imagery is not 
guaranteed to be well aligned, is guaranteed to be be steadily more and 
more out of date and gives no clue about what signs say. Mapping by 
surveying gives such a good understanding of what is really there that 
it is the best way to integrate your new stuff and perhaps correct what 
may have been added by the folks who have gone before.


--
Cheers, Chris (chillly)


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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Andy Townsend]

On 26/02/2016 07:59, Marc Gemis wrote:

How do you detect that stuff is gone ? I'm thinking of benches,
waste-bins, telephones, etc. All those little things that are not or
hardly visible on aerial imagery ?
Do you constantly look at the screen of your smartphone or GPS to see
whether there is such a "small" thing mapped ?

The maps I use on both the phone and the Garmin try and make the sorts 
of small things that I'm interested in fairly obvious (on Garmin maps I 
use the Garmin Office "G" symbol for gates, for example, and the map I 
use on the phone goes up to z20 overzoomed to z21, so it's easy to see 
small details there too, and read the text on a small screen).


I still end up marking that (e.g.) "there is a bus stop here" and 
getting home and finding that it's already mapped, though :)


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri Feb 26 11:23:34 2016 GMT, David Woolley wrote:
> On 25/02/16 17:04, Nick Whitelegg wrote:
> >
> 
> > User can also enter relevant POIs like stiles, gates etc when they are
> > encountered.
> >
> >
> > When user returns home, track simplification algorithm used to make a
> > way from the GPX trace and tags it with the tags equivalent to the ROW type.
> >
> >
> > User downloads data from OSM and algorithms are used to auto-join the
> > user's new ways to existing ways where appropriate (or alternatively,
> > the user does this manually)
> 
> This might have been a good idea in the early days, when most mapping 
> used GPS and most mapping was onto an empty map.  These days, I think it 
> would just cause problems as it would probably delay the proper 
> association of the GPS tracks with, more accurate, aerial imagery data, 
> and would not properly account for features that had already been 
> mapped, but possibly on a different, or more accurate datum.
> 
PROW mapping still requires good gps traces, such mapping simply cannot be done 
using aerial imagery alone. 

Whilst my experienced countryside eye can spot a gate used by farm vehicles, 
there is no way to tell if a hedge/fence crossing in a stile,  gate or kissing 
gate without an on the ground survey. 

Any tools which help mapping these can only be a good thing. 

Phil (trigpoint)
-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[David Woolley]

On 25/02/16 17:04, Nick Whitelegg wrote:





User can also enter relevant POIs like stiles, gates etc when they are
encountered.


When user returns home, track simplification algorithm used to make a
way from the GPX trace and tags it with the tags equivalent to the ROW type.


User downloads data from OSM and algorithms are used to auto-join the
user's new ways to existing ways where appropriate (or alternatively,
the user does this manually)


This might have been a good idea in the early days, when most mapping 
used GPS and most mapping was onto an empty map.  These days, I think it 
would just cause problems as it would probably delay the proper 
association of the GPS tracks with, more accurate, aerial imagery data, 
and would not properly account for features that had already been 
mapped, but possibly on a different, or more accurate datum.



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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Marc Gemis]

How do you detect that stuff is gone ? I'm thinking of benches,
waste-bins, telephones, etc. All those little things that are not or
hardly visible on aerial imagery ?
Do you constantly look at the screen of your smartphone or GPS to see
whether there is such a "small" thing mapped ?

regards

m

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 6:28 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 25/02/2016 17:04, Nick Whitelegg wrote:
>
>
> One thought I've had for a long time (and have probably mentioned in the
> past) is a walkers' editor (app rather than web-based). To be used something
> like:
>
>
> User goes for walk and records GPX trace, following this sort of pattern.
>
>
> Each time the type of right of way changes, the user selects a high level
> type ("Public Footpath", "Public Bridleway" etc in the UK) together with
> optional surface tags.
>
>
> User can also enter relevant POIs like stiles, gates etc when they are
> encountered.
>
>
> When user returns home, track simplification algorithm used to make a way
> from the GPX trace and tags it with the tags equivalent to the ROW type.
>
>
> User downloads data from OSM and algorithms are used to auto-join the user's
> new ways to existing ways where appropriate (or alternatively, the user does
> this manually)
>
>
> That's not a million miles from the way that I map right now, albeit without
> the benefits of an "app" as such:
>
> I record a GPS trace (on a Garmin) with numbered waypoints in it.  The
> symbols for the Garmin waypoints "mean" something, so the "boat ramp" symbol
> means "public right of way".  If it's a bridleway I'll add "BR" to the
> comment on the Garmin.  If more text is needed (e.g. the name of a shop I've
> created a waypoint for) I'll create an line in an email to myself, the start
> of which is the Garmin waypoint number and the rest of which is the comment.
>
> When I get home I'll split the individual traces out programmatically, merge
> the comments from the email into the GPX file (likewise) and upload to OSM.
>
> I'll then edit in OSM using the uploaded trace directly (using P2 - JOSM
> can't process waypoints in a way that's useful to me).  Usually the
> combination of new GPS trace, previous GPS traces, Bing imagery, OS OpenData
> StreetView imagery and my recollection is enough to figure out where the
> path should go, but none of those (unless there are really _lots_ of old GPS
> traces) are good enough on their own.
>
> On an introductory level, I can definitely see the benefits of something
> that can suggest to people "here are the other attributes of $thing that
> you've just added", like iD does, and like Kort does/used to do (see
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kort_Game ).
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Michael Booth]

There's already an android app that does some of that: 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=me.guillaumin.android.osmtracker


I record traces and add notes/markers for various things and take 
photos, export it as a gpx, share the trace/photos to google drive, then 
download them for use in iD.


Apparently you can customise the buttons to show different things, 
haven't tried it yet though.


On 25/02/2016 17:04, Nick Whitelegg wrote:



One thought I've had for a long time (and have probably mentioned in 
the past) is a walkers' editor (app rather than web-based). To be 
used something like:



User goes for walk and records GPX trace, following this sort of pattern.


Each time the type of right of way changes, the user selects a high 
level type ("Public Footpath", "Public Bridleway" etc in the UK) 
together with optional surface tags.



User can also enter relevant POIs like stiles, gates etc when they are 
encountered.



When user returns home, track simplification algorithm used to make a 
way from the GPX trace and tags it with the tags equivalent to the ROW 
type.



User downloads data from OSM and algorithms are used to auto-join the 
user's new ways to existing ways where appropriate (or alternatively, 
the user does this manually)



Would there be any interest in this I wonder?


Nick




*From:* Gregory <nomoregra...@googlemail.com>
*Sent:* 25 February 2016 15:37
*To:* Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
*Subject:* Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2
Probably a side-effect of being more recently created, but I've got 
the impression iD is easier to make coded adjustments to & specialised 
implementations of (certainly these exist).


That's just another small sales point for iD. But also provides the 
argument: if you can't get improvements added, fork it and add them 
yourself (could apply to Potlatch too).


Anyway, I use JOSM mainly. I agree with Jerry(SK53) in that we should 
be supporting multiple editors and even specialised ones (for 
data-types or entry-device).


From "Durham Ridge",
Gregory.

On 25 February 2016 at 15:13, SK53 <sk53@gmail.com 
<mailto:sk53@gmail.com>> wrote:


Apart from other factors a very strong reason for favouring iD
over P2 is that the latter is Flash-based, It therefore has a
degree of in-built obsolescence, and may not be allowed for
security reasons in some organisations.

iD has been the default editor for a number of years now (just
under 3 IIRC), and the bulk of additional code for on-line editors
is added to iD, mainly by MapBox. There have been enhancements to
P2 too, but these are many fewer. So the latter is neither
obsolete, nor in an end-of-life stage. However, when it's end
comes it's likely to be swift as flash gets eliminated by major
browsers.

There's still plenty of space for on-line editors (for instance
one which deals with highways, buildings etc as primitive objects
rather than OSM elements as the current ones do): but whether
anyone is willing to take on the odium of maintaining an OSM
editor is moot.

Furthermore, editors on mobile devices are much less mature, and
there are substantial potential benefits in reducing or even
eliminating the survey-edit-update cycle.

Jerry

On 25 February 2016 at 13:15, Dave F <davefoxfa...@btinternet.com
<mailto:davefoxfa...@btinternet.com>> wrote:

What's wrong with with suggesting users use P2 over iD?

P2 has a few advantages over other editors. The only real
benefit I've noticed in iD is it prevents loading of data if
user is zoomed too far out. Something that Richard Fairhurst
might be able to implement fairly easily into P2.

I'm even less encouraged to use iD after a couple of
conversations with two of the developers (the only two?). They
appear resentful to many of the suggestions for improvement.

From memory Richard F. was a developer in the start up of iD,
Is he still involved?

Dave F.



On 25/02/2016 09:30, Philip Barnes wrote:


On Thu Feb 25 06:43:23 2016 GMT, Andy Robinson wrote:

I noticed that too Rob. Day before yesterday they all
seemed to start at the same time so I assumed it was
uni students.

We spotted them as new users from the bot that reports in 
#osm-gb.


They were spread over the country,  I assume the lecturer
hasn't updated his notes, the default if you hit the edit
button as a new user is iD.

Phil (trigpoint)

From: Rob Nickerson [mailto:rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com
<mailto:rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com>]
Sent: 25 February 2016 00:24
        To: Talk-GB
  

Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Adam Hoyle]

If you’re on an iPhone then “Trails” is very good. Records GPS and one can add 
waypoints and then export the lot straight to Open Street Map.

https://trails.io/en/

(I’m not a developer of it, just a fan).

I agree that it would be awesome to have a walkers app that allows on-the-move 
edits of OSM data.

On the P2 note - Adobe AIR means one can make Android and iOS apps from 
Actionscript, however I don’t know if P2 would be usable on a phone/tablet as a 
finger is much less precise than a mouse, although maybe on iPad Pro with the 
pencil it could work.

Best,

Adam

On 25 February 2016 at 17:29:23, Andy Townsend (ajt1...@gmail.com) wrote:

On 25/02/2016 17:04, Nick Whitelegg wrote:


One thought I've had for a long time (and have probably mentioned in the past) 
is a walkers' editor (app rather than web-based). To be used something like:



User goes for walk and records GPX trace, following this sort of pattern.


Each time the type of right of way changes, the user selects a high level type 
("Public Footpath", "Public Bridleway" etc in the UK) together with optional 
surface tags.



User can also enter relevant POIs like stiles, gates etc when they are 
encountered.



When user returns home, track simplification algorithm used to make a way from 
the GPX trace and tags it with the tags equivalent to the ROW type.



User downloads data from OSM and algorithms are used to auto-join the user's 
new ways to existing ways where appropriate (or alternatively, the user does 
this manually)


That's not a million miles from the way that I map right now, albeit without 
the benefits of an "app" as such:

I record a GPS trace (on a Garmin) with numbered waypoints in it.  The symbols 
for the Garmin waypoints "mean" something, so the "boat ramp" symbol means 
"public right of way".  If it's a bridleway I'll add "BR" to the comment on the 
Garmin.  If more text is needed (e.g. the name of a shop I've created a 
waypoint for) I'll create an line in an email to myself, the start of which is 
the Garmin waypoint number and the rest of which is the comment.

When I get home I'll split the individual traces out programmatically, merge 
the comments from the email into the GPX file (likewise) and upload to OSM.

I'll then edit in OSM using the uploaded trace directly (using P2 - JOSM can't 
process waypoints in a way that's useful to me).  Usually the combination of 
new GPS trace, previous GPS traces, Bing imagery, OS OpenData StreetView 
imagery and my recollection is enough to figure out where the path should go, 
but none of those (unless there are really _lots_ of old GPS traces) are good 
enough on their own.

On an introductory level, I can definitely see the benefits of something that 
can suggest to people "here are the other attributes of $thing that you've just 
added", like iD does, and like Kort does/used to do (see 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kort_Game ).

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Andy Townsend]

On 25/02/2016 17:04, Nick Whitelegg wrote:



One thought I've had for a long time (and have probably mentioned in 
the past) is a walkers' editor (app rather than web-based). To be 
used something like:



User goes for walk and records GPX trace, following this sort of pattern.


Each time the type of right of way changes, the user selects a high 
level type ("Public Footpath", "Public Bridleway" etc in the UK) 
together with optional surface tags.



User can also enter relevant POIs like stiles, gates etc when they are 
encountered.



When user returns home, track simplification algorithm used to make a 
way from the GPX trace and tags it with the tags equivalent to the ROW 
type.



User downloads data from OSM and algorithms are used to auto-join the 
user's new ways to existing ways where appropriate (or alternatively, 
the user does this manually)




That's not a million miles from the way that I map right now, albeit 
without the benefits of an "app" as such:


I record a GPS trace (on a Garmin) with numbered waypoints in it. The 
symbols for the Garmin waypoints "mean" something, so the "boat ramp" 
symbol means "public right of way".  If it's a bridleway I'll add "BR" 
to the comment on the Garmin.  If more text is needed (e.g. the name of 
a shop I've created a waypoint for) I'll create an line in an email to 
myself, the start of which is the Garmin waypoint number and the rest of 
which is the comment.


When I get home I'll split the individual traces out programmatically, 
merge the comments from the email into the GPX file (likewise) and 
upload to OSM.


I'll then edit in OSM using the uploaded trace directly (using P2 - JOSM 
can't process waypoints in a way that's useful to me).  Usually the 
combination of new GPS trace, previous GPS traces, Bing imagery, OS 
OpenData StreetView imagery and my recollection is enough to figure out 
where the path should go, but none of those (unless there are really 
_lots_ of old GPS traces) are good enough on their own.


On an introductory level, I can definitely see the benefits of something 
that can suggest to people "here are the other attributes of $thing that 
you've just added", like iD does, and like Kort does/used to do (see 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kort_Game ).


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Nick Whitelegg]

One thought I've had for a long time (and have probably mentioned in the past) 
is a walkers' editor (app rather than web-based). To be used something like:


User goes for walk and records GPX trace, following this sort of pattern.

Each time the type of right of way changes, the user selects a high level type 
("Public Footpath", "Public Bridleway" etc in the UK) together with optional 
surface tags.


User can also enter relevant POIs like stiles, gates etc when they are 
encountered.


When user returns home, track simplification algorithm used to make a way from 
the GPX trace and tags it with the tags equivalent to the ROW type.


User downloads data from OSM and algorithms are used to auto-join the user's 
new ways to existing ways where appropriate (or alternatively, the user does 
this manually)


Would there be any interest in this I wonder?


Nick



From: Gregory <nomoregra...@googlemail.com>
Sent: 25 February 2016 15:37
To: Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

Probably a side-effect of being more recently created, but I've got the 
impression iD is easier to make coded adjustments to & specialised 
implementations of (certainly these exist).

That's just another small sales point for iD. But also provides the argument: 
if you can't get improvements added, fork it and add them yourself (could apply 
to Potlatch too).

Anyway, I use JOSM mainly. I agree with Jerry(SK53) in that we should be 
supporting multiple editors and even specialised ones (for data-types or 
entry-device).

>From "Durham Ridge",
Gregory.

On 25 February 2016 at 15:13, SK53 
<sk53@gmail.com<mailto:sk53@gmail.com>> wrote:
Apart from other factors a very strong reason for favouring iD over P2 is that 
the latter is Flash-based, It therefore has a degree of in-built obsolescence, 
and may not be allowed for security reasons in some organisations.

iD has been the default editor for a number of years now (just under 3 IIRC), 
and the bulk of additional code for on-line editors is added to iD, mainly by 
MapBox. There have been enhancements to P2 too, but these are many fewer. So 
the latter is neither obsolete, nor in an end-of-life stage. However, when it's 
end comes it's likely to be swift as flash gets eliminated by major browsers.

There's still plenty of space for on-line editors (for instance one which deals 
with highways, buildings etc as primitive objects rather than OSM elements as 
the current ones do): but whether anyone is willing to take on the odium of 
maintaining an OSM editor is moot.

Furthermore, editors on mobile devices are much less mature, and there are 
substantial potential benefits in reducing or even eliminating the 
survey-edit-update cycle.

Jerry

On 25 February 2016 at 13:15, Dave F 
<davefoxfa...@btinternet.com<mailto:davefoxfa...@btinternet.com>> wrote:
What's wrong with with suggesting users use P2 over iD?

P2 has a few advantages over other editors. The only real benefit I've noticed 
in iD is it prevents loading of data if user is zoomed too far out. Something 
that Richard Fairhurst might be able to implement fairly easily into P2.

I'm even less encouraged to use iD after a couple of conversations with two of 
the developers (the only two?). They appear resentful to many of the 
suggestions for improvement.

>From memory Richard F. was a developer in the start up of iD, Is he still 
>involved?

Dave F.



On 25/02/2016 09:30, Philip Barnes wrote:

On Thu Feb 25 06:43:23 2016 GMT, Andy Robinson wrote:
I noticed that too Rob. Day before yesterday they all seemed to start at the 
same time so I assumed it was uni students.

We spotted them as new users from the bot that reports in  #osm-gb.

They were spread over the country,  I assume the lecturer hasn't updated his 
notes, the default if you hit the edit button as a new user is iD.

Phil (trigpoint)
From: Rob Nickerson 
[mailto:rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com<mailto:rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com>]
Sent: 25 February 2016 00:24
To: Talk-GB
Subject: [Talk-GB] New users and P2


Hi,

Is anyone aware of any recent OSM press - we've seen a lot of new OSM mappers 
in the Midlands in the last 2 days :-)

Also is Potlatch 2 still the default for new mappers as they all seem to be 
using that? I though we'd switched to iD as the default across all browsers now 
(although I don't remember where I read that!).



Rob




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o..

Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Richard Fairhurst]

Jerry Clough wrote:
> However, when it's end comes it's likely to be swift as flash gets
> eliminated by major browsers.

I think that remains to be seen. There's a number of alternative options for
running Flash apps, either in-browser (Shumway, FlexJS) or on Mac/Windows
desktop (AIR). There's also the possibility of moving to a close cousin such
as Haxe/OpenFL.

Whether any of these are pragmatic choices; whether it'd be more
entertaining to cut one's losses and move to something like a native OS X
app; or whether it's all too much hassle, I'm not yet sure. But we do have a
paucity of editing software and it would be a shame to see that worsen.

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Paul Berry]

I can't but comment on my own experiences but for quick, simple updates, iD
is the way to go (and it can handle a lot more than that). You'll notice
that the [Edit] dropdown shows, in order: iD, Potlatch 2, Remote Control
(for JOSM or similar). I'm presuming these options are only coincidentally
in alphabetical order and are actually ranked from beginner to expert in
terms of ease-of-use and power. Certainly my own stats reflect this (
http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?Paul%20Berry).

And yet, not one of the main editors does everything I want. There is
always scope for improvement or specialisation :)

Regards,
*Paul*


On 25 February 2016 at 15:37, Gregory <nomoregra...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Probably a side-effect of being more recently created, but I've got the
> impression iD is easier to make coded adjustments to & specialised
> implementations of (certainly these exist).
>
> That's just another small sales point for iD. But also provides the
> argument: if you can't get improvements added, fork it and add them
> yourself (could apply to Potlatch too).
>
> Anyway, I use JOSM mainly. I agree with Jerry(SK53) in that we should be
> supporting multiple editors and even specialised ones (for data-types or
> entry-device).
>
> From "Durham Ridge",
> Gregory.
>
> On 25 February 2016 at 15:13, SK53 <sk53@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Apart from other factors a very strong reason for favouring iD over P2 is
>> that the latter is Flash-based, It therefore has a degree of in-built
>> obsolescence, and may not be allowed for security reasons in some
>> organisations.
>>
>> iD has been the default editor for a number of years now (just under 3
>> IIRC), and the bulk of additional code for on-line editors is added to iD,
>> mainly by MapBox. There have been enhancements to P2 too, but these are
>> many fewer. So the latter is neither obsolete, nor in an end-of-life stage.
>> However, when it's end comes it's likely to be swift as flash gets
>> eliminated by major browsers.
>>
>> There's still plenty of space for on-line editors (for instance one which
>> deals with highways, buildings etc as primitive objects rather than OSM
>> elements as the current ones do): but whether anyone is willing to take on
>> the odium of maintaining an OSM editor is moot.
>>
>> Furthermore, editors on mobile devices are much less mature, and there
>> are substantial potential benefits in reducing or even eliminating the
>> survey-edit-update cycle.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>> On 25 February 2016 at 13:15, Dave F <davefoxfa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What's wrong with with suggesting users use P2 over iD?
>>>
>>> P2 has a few advantages over other editors. The only real benefit I've
>>> noticed in iD is it prevents loading of data if user is zoomed too far out.
>>> Something that Richard Fairhurst might be able to implement fairly easily
>>> into P2.
>>>
>>> I'm even less encouraged to use iD after a couple of conversations with
>>> two of the developers (the only two?). They appear resentful to many of the
>>> suggestions for improvement.
>>>
>>> From memory Richard F. was a developer in the start up of iD, Is he
>>> still involved?
>>>
>>> Dave F.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 25/02/2016 09:30, Philip Barnes wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu Feb 25 06:43:23 2016 GMT, Andy Robinson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I noticed that too Rob. Day before yesterday they all seemed to start
>>>>> at the same time so I assumed it was uni students.
>>>>>
>>>>> We spotted them as new users from the bot that reports in  #osm-gb.
>>>>
>>>> They were spread over the country,  I assume the lecturer hasn't
>>>> updated his notes, the default if you hit the edit button as a new user is
>>>> iD.
>>>>
>>>> Phil (trigpoint)
>>>>
>>>>> From: Rob Nickerson [mailto:rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com]
>>>>> Sent: 25 February 2016 00:24
>>>>> To: Talk-GB
>>>>> Subject: [Talk-GB] New users and P2
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>
>>>>> Is anyone aware of any recent OSM press - we've seen a lot of new OSM
>>>>> mappers in the Midlands in the last 2 days :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Also is Potlatch 2 still the default for new mappers as they all seem
>>>>> to be using that? I though we'd switched to iD as the default across all
>>>>> b

Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Gregory]

Probably a side-effect of being more recently created, but I've got the
impression iD is easier to make coded adjustments to & specialised
implementations of (certainly these exist).

That's just another small sales point for iD. But also provides the
argument: if you can't get improvements added, fork it and add them
yourself (could apply to Potlatch too).

Anyway, I use JOSM mainly. I agree with Jerry(SK53) in that we should be
supporting multiple editors and even specialised ones (for data-types or
entry-device).

>From "Durham Ridge",
Gregory.

On 25 February 2016 at 15:13, SK53 <sk53@gmail.com> wrote:

> Apart from other factors a very strong reason for favouring iD over P2 is
> that the latter is Flash-based, It therefore has a degree of in-built
> obsolescence, and may not be allowed for security reasons in some
> organisations.
>
> iD has been the default editor for a number of years now (just under 3
> IIRC), and the bulk of additional code for on-line editors is added to iD,
> mainly by MapBox. There have been enhancements to P2 too, but these are
> many fewer. So the latter is neither obsolete, nor in an end-of-life stage.
> However, when it's end comes it's likely to be swift as flash gets
> eliminated by major browsers.
>
> There's still plenty of space for on-line editors (for instance one which
> deals with highways, buildings etc as primitive objects rather than OSM
> elements as the current ones do): but whether anyone is willing to take on
> the odium of maintaining an OSM editor is moot.
>
> Furthermore, editors on mobile devices are much less mature, and there are
> substantial potential benefits in reducing or even eliminating the
> survey-edit-update cycle.
>
> Jerry
>
> On 25 February 2016 at 13:15, Dave F <davefoxfa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> What's wrong with with suggesting users use P2 over iD?
>>
>> P2 has a few advantages over other editors. The only real benefit I've
>> noticed in iD is it prevents loading of data if user is zoomed too far out.
>> Something that Richard Fairhurst might be able to implement fairly easily
>> into P2.
>>
>> I'm even less encouraged to use iD after a couple of conversations with
>> two of the developers (the only two?). They appear resentful to many of the
>> suggestions for improvement.
>>
>> From memory Richard F. was a developer in the start up of iD, Is he still
>> involved?
>>
>> Dave F.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 25/02/2016 09:30, Philip Barnes wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On Thu Feb 25 06:43:23 2016 GMT, Andy Robinson wrote:
>>>
>>>> I noticed that too Rob. Day before yesterday they all seemed to start
>>>> at the same time so I assumed it was uni students.
>>>>
>>>> We spotted them as new users from the bot that reports in  #osm-gb.
>>>
>>> They were spread over the country,  I assume the lecturer hasn't updated
>>> his notes, the default if you hit the edit button as a new user is iD.
>>>
>>> Phil (trigpoint)
>>>
>>>> From: Rob Nickerson [mailto:rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: 25 February 2016 00:24
>>>> To: Talk-GB
>>>> Subject: [Talk-GB] New users and P2
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> Is anyone aware of any recent OSM press - we've seen a lot of new OSM
>>>> mappers in the Midlands in the last 2 days :-)
>>>>
>>>> Also is Potlatch 2 still the default for new mappers as they all seem
>>>> to be using that? I though we'd switched to iD as the default across all
>>>> browsers now (although I don't remember where I read that!).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rob
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> ---
>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>>
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[SK53]

Apart from other factors a very strong reason for favouring iD over P2 is
that the latter is Flash-based, It therefore has a degree of in-built
obsolescence, and may not be allowed for security reasons in some
organisations.

iD has been the default editor for a number of years now (just under 3
IIRC), and the bulk of additional code for on-line editors is added to iD,
mainly by MapBox. There have been enhancements to P2 too, but these are
many fewer. So the latter is neither obsolete, nor in an end-of-life stage.
However, when it's end comes it's likely to be swift as flash gets
eliminated by major browsers.

There's still plenty of space for on-line editors (for instance one which
deals with highways, buildings etc as primitive objects rather than OSM
elements as the current ones do): but whether anyone is willing to take on
the odium of maintaining an OSM editor is moot.

Furthermore, editors on mobile devices are much less mature, and there are
substantial potential benefits in reducing or even eliminating the
survey-edit-update cycle.

Jerry

On 25 February 2016 at 13:15, Dave F <davefoxfa...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> What's wrong with with suggesting users use P2 over iD?
>
> P2 has a few advantages over other editors. The only real benefit I've
> noticed in iD is it prevents loading of data if user is zoomed too far out.
> Something that Richard Fairhurst might be able to implement fairly easily
> into P2.
>
> I'm even less encouraged to use iD after a couple of conversations with
> two of the developers (the only two?). They appear resentful to many of the
> suggestions for improvement.
>
> From memory Richard F. was a developer in the start up of iD, Is he still
> involved?
>
> Dave F.
>
>
>
> On 25/02/2016 09:30, Philip Barnes wrote:
>
>>
>> On Thu Feb 25 06:43:23 2016 GMT, Andy Robinson wrote:
>>
>>> I noticed that too Rob. Day before yesterday they all seemed to start at
>>> the same time so I assumed it was uni students.
>>>
>>> We spotted them as new users from the bot that reports in  #osm-gb.
>>
>> They were spread over the country,  I assume the lecturer hasn't updated
>> his notes, the default if you hit the edit button as a new user is iD.
>>
>> Phil (trigpoint)
>>
>>> From: Rob Nickerson [mailto:rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com]
>>> Sent: 25 February 2016 00:24
>>> To: Talk-GB
>>> Subject: [Talk-GB] New users and P2
>>>
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Is anyone aware of any recent OSM press - we've seen a lot of new OSM
>>> mappers in the Midlands in the last 2 days :-)
>>>
>>> Also is Potlatch 2 still the default for new mappers as they all seem to
>>> be using that? I though we'd switched to iD as the default across all
>>> browsers now (although I don't remember where I read that!).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rob
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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>
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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Philip Barnes]

I don't think anyone was criticising P2, just questioning how so many new users 
had chosen a non-default editor. 

Phil (trigpoint)

On Thu Feb 25 13:15:11 2016 GMT, Dave F wrote:
> What's wrong with with suggesting users use P2 over iD?
> 
> P2 has a few advantages over other editors. The only real benefit I've 
> noticed in iD is it prevents loading of data if user is zoomed too far 
> out. Something that Richard Fairhurst might be able to implement fairly 
> easily into P2.
> 
> I'm even less encouraged to use iD after a couple of conversations with 
> two of the developers (the only two?). They appear resentful to many of 
> the suggestions for improvement.
> 
>  From memory Richard F. was a developer in the start up of iD, Is he 
> still involved?
> 
> Dave F.
> 
> 
> 
> On 25/02/2016 09:30, Philip Barnes wrote:
> >
> > On Thu Feb 25 06:43:23 2016 GMT, Andy Robinson wrote:
> >> I noticed that too Rob. Day before yesterday they all seemed to start at 
> >> the same time so I assumed it was uni students.
> >>
> > We spotted them as new users from the bot that reports in  #osm-gb.
> >
> > They were spread over the country,  I assume the lecturer hasn't updated 
> > his notes, the default if you hit the edit button as a new user is iD.
> >
> > Phil (trigpoint)
> >> From: Rob Nickerson [mailto:rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: 25 February 2016 00:24
> >> To: Talk-GB
> >> Subject: [Talk-GB] New users and P2
> >>
> >>   
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> Is anyone aware of any recent OSM press - we've seen a lot of new OSM 
> >> mappers in the Midlands in the last 2 days :-)
> >>
> >> Also is Potlatch 2 still the default for new mappers as they all seem to 
> >> be using that? I though we'd switched to iD as the default across all 
> >> browsers now (although I don't remember where I read that!).
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Rob
> >>
> >>
> 
> 
> ---
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> 
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Lester Caine]

On 25/02/16 13:15, Dave F wrote:
> What's wrong with with suggesting users use P2 over iD?
> 
> P2 has a few advantages over other editors. The only real benefit I've
> noticed in iD is it prevents loading of data if user is zoomed too far
> out. Something that Richard Fairhurst might be able to implement fairly
> easily into P2.

While I accept that P2 is falling a little behind on things like some of
the tag templates, It is still a much better platform for new users than
Id and certainly I use it to demo editing to my client base.

-- 
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-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Dave F]

What's wrong with with suggesting users use P2 over iD?

P2 has a few advantages over other editors. The only real benefit I've 
noticed in iD is it prevents loading of data if user is zoomed too far 
out. Something that Richard Fairhurst might be able to implement fairly 
easily into P2.


I'm even less encouraged to use iD after a couple of conversations with 
two of the developers (the only two?). They appear resentful to many of 
the suggestions for improvement.


From memory Richard F. was a developer in the start up of iD, Is he 
still involved?


Dave F.



On 25/02/2016 09:30, Philip Barnes wrote:


On Thu Feb 25 06:43:23 2016 GMT, Andy Robinson wrote:

I noticed that too Rob. Day before yesterday they all seemed to start at the 
same time so I assumed it was uni students.


We spotted them as new users from the bot that reports in  #osm-gb.

They were spread over the country,  I assume the lecturer hasn't updated his 
notes, the default if you hit the edit button as a new user is iD.

Phil (trigpoint)

From: Rob Nickerson [mailto:rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com]
Sent: 25 February 2016 00:24
To: Talk-GB
Subject: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

  


Hi,

Is anyone aware of any recent OSM press - we've seen a lot of new OSM mappers 
in the Midlands in the last 2 days :-)

Also is Potlatch 2 still the default for new mappers as they all seem to be 
using that? I though we'd switched to iD as the default across all browsers now 
(although I don't remember where I read that!).



Rob





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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Philip Barnes]

On Thu Feb 25 10:34:03 2016 GMT, Nick Allen wrote:
> But Some versions of Internet Explorer run P2 only,  could it be they
> are all with the same company running corporate laptops?

I'll stick with students,  the edits were spread over the country too much for 
a company. Many were homes and schools.

Phil (trigpoint)


> On 25 Feb 2016 09:31, "Philip Barnes" <p...@trigpoint.me.uk> wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > On Thu Feb 25 06:43:23 2016 GMT, Andy Robinson wrote:
> > > I noticed that too Rob. Day before yesterday they all seemed to start at
> > the same time so I assumed it was uni students.
> > >
> > We spotted them as new users from the bot that reports in  #osm-gb.
> >
> > They were spread over the country,  I assume the lecturer hasn't updated
> > his notes, the default if you hit the edit button as a new user is iD.
> >
> > Phil (trigpoint)
> > >
> > > From: Rob Nickerson [mailto:rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com]
> > > Sent: 25 February 2016 00:24
> > > To: Talk-GB
> > > Subject: [Talk-GB] New users and P2
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Is anyone aware of any recent OSM press - we've seen a lot of new OSM
> > mappers in the Midlands in the last 2 days :-)
> > >
> > > Also is Potlatch 2 still the default for new mappers as they all seem to
> > be using that? I though we'd switched to iD as the default across all
> > browsers now (although I don't remember where I read that!).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rob
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from my Jolla
> > ___
> > Talk-GB mailing list
> > Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
> >
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Philip Barnes]

On Thu Feb 25 06:43:23 2016 GMT, Andy Robinson wrote:
> I noticed that too Rob. Day before yesterday they all seemed to start at the 
> same time so I assumed it was uni students.
> 
We spotted them as new users from the bot that reports in  #osm-gb.

They were spread over the country,  I assume the lecturer hasn't updated his 
notes, the default if you hit the edit button as a new user is iD.

Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> From: Rob Nickerson [mailto:rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com] 
> Sent: 25 February 2016 00:24
> To: Talk-GB
> Subject: [Talk-GB] New users and P2
> 
>  
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Is anyone aware of any recent OSM press - we've seen a lot of new OSM mappers 
> in the Midlands in the last 2 days :-)
> 
> Also is Potlatch 2 still the default for new mappers as they all seem to be 
> using that? I though we'd switched to iD as the default across all browsers 
> now (although I don't remember where I read that!).
> 
> 
> 
> Rob
> 
>

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Re: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Andy Robinson]

I noticed that too Rob. Day before yesterday they all seemed to start at the 
same time so I assumed it was uni students.

 

Cheers

Andy

 

From: Rob Nickerson [mailto:rob.j.nicker...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 25 February 2016 00:24
To: Talk-GB
Subject: [Talk-GB] New users and P2

 

Hi,

Is anyone aware of any recent OSM press - we've seen a lot of new OSM mappers 
in the Midlands in the last 2 days :-)

Also is Potlatch 2 still the default for new mappers as they all seem to be 
using that? I though we'd switched to iD as the default across all browsers now 
(although I don't remember where I read that!).



Rob

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[Talk-GB] New users and P2

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi,

Is anyone aware of any recent OSM press - we've seen a lot of new OSM
mappers in the Midlands in the last 2 days :-)

Also is Potlatch 2 still the default for new mappers as they all seem to be
using that? I though we'd switched to iD as the default across all browsers
now (although I don't remember where I read that!).

*Rob*
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