[Talk-us] Map of bot node edits

[Toby Murray]

Alright... I got something running.

http://ni.kwsn.net/~toby/OSM/maps/redaction.html

It is a map that shows all nodes (but ONLY nodes) touched by the bot
in the US and Canada. Actually I thought I was only doing the lower 48
but apparently Maperitive decided that I wanted more. I think it cuts
off at about 67 degrees north.  Red means a node was deleted, blue
means it was modified. "Modified" could mean location change and/or
tag changes. It only goes up to zoom 11 and that will probably be all.
This is partially technical (I'm pre-rendering tiles using Maperitive
and pushing its limits already) and partially legal. This is not
intended as a map to let you retrieve the location of deleted nodes by
decliners. It is simply a guide to finding out where the bot had the
most impact and to direct remapping efforts.

Also, there will be no updates to this map. There isn't much to update
once a node is deleted and redacted. So don't expect things to
disappear as you remap.

Anyway, Hope it helps a little. I have a couple of ideas for other
layers too. I'll have to see what I can come up with this weekend.

Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[jeremy jozwik]

ACH is 65% re-built. im tired and getting annoyed at the 2000 point
limit. someone else take over...

sorry for the direct email to the recipient as well...

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Charlotte Wolter  wrote:
>
> Got it. Thanks for the explanation.
> So, how do I "load shapefiles into a separate layer"? I need someone
> to walk me through it. How would I do that, if I wanted to get things like
> street names (and the other TIGER data)?
>
> --C
>
>
>
> At 04:11 PM 7/19/2012, you wrote:
>
> * Charlotte Wolter  [2012-07-19 15:58 -0700]:
>> That's great, but will it overwrite work that we've already
>> done?
>
> Presumably not.  Potlatch loads shapefiles into a separate layer and
> requires mappers to manually pull the data into OSM.
>
>> Also, is this something that works only in JOSM, in which
>> case many of us couldn't use it?
>
> No.  For one thing, Richard is the main developer of Potlatch and doesn't
> do anything with JOSM.  For another thing, he mentioned "reworking the P2
> source code"; "P2" refers to Potlatch 2.
>
>> Also, I still don't understand why all the TIGER data was
>> deleted on ways that were partially deleted.
>
> Because of OpenStreetMap's data model.  When you split a way, what your
> editor does is upload a changed version of the original that only
> contains half the original nodes and then upload a new way with the same
> tags as the old one that contains the other half of the nodes.  To
> subsequent database queries, the second way appears as though you created
> it and there's no direct link back to the way that originally contained
> the nodes.
>
> On top of that, there was a deliberate decision made (as I understand
> things) not to undo deletions, which includes the removal of nodes from a
> way.  Had the bot done that, there would be many places where the bot
> would create multiple, overlapping, tangled ways.
>
> Since either approach would have left significant messes for mappers to
> clean up, there wasn't really a good way forward.  The people working on
> the redaction bot felt that not undeleting would be the better of two bad
> options.
>
> --
> ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/
> PGP: 026A27F2  print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248  9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2
> --- --
> i am not interested in a penis for aesthetic purposes.
>-- isabelle whitman
>  --- --
>
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>
>
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> 90403
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>
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>
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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Charlotte Wolter]

Got it. Thanks for the explanation.
So, how do I "load shapefiles into a separate layer"? I need 
someone to walk me through it. How would I do that, if I wanted to 
get things like street names (and the other TIGER data)?


--C


At 04:11 PM 7/19/2012, you wrote:

* Charlotte Wolter  [2012-07-19 15:58 -0700]:
> That's great, but will it overwrite work that we've already
> done?

Presumably not.  Potlatch loads shapefiles into a separate layer and
requires mappers to manually pull the data into OSM.

> Also, is this something that works only in JOSM, in which
> case many of us couldn't use it?

No.  For one thing, Richard is the main developer of Potlatch and doesn't
do anything with JOSM.  For another thing, he mentioned "reworking the P2
source code"; "P2" refers to Potlatch 2.

> Also, I still don't understand why all the TIGER data was
> deleted on ways that were partially deleted.

Because of OpenStreetMap's data model.  When you split a way, what your
editor does is upload a changed version of the original that only
contains half the original nodes and then upload a new way with the same
tags as the old one that contains the other half of the nodes.  To
subsequent database queries, the second way appears as though you created
it and there's no direct link back to the way that originally contained
the nodes.

On top of that, there was a deliberate decision made (as I understand
things) not to undo deletions, which includes the removal of nodes from a
way.  Had the bot done that, there would be many places where the bot
would create multiple, overlapping, tangled ways.

Since either approach would have left significant messes for mappers to
clean up, there wasn't really a good way forward.  The people working on
the redaction bot felt that not undeleting would be the better of two bad
options.

--
...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/
PGP: 026A27F2  print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248  9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2
--- --
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   -- isabelle whitman
 --- --

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Skype: thetechlady

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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Paul Norman]

> From: Toby Murray [mailto:toby.mur...@gmail.com]
> Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup
> 
> And this time to the list... (cures you, lack of reply-to!)
> 
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:16 AM, the Old Topo Depot
>  wrote:
> >
> > Toby's post yesterday using the modified live edit bot osmZmiany seems
> > a good way to help focus on areas.  Toby, do you think it possible to
> > serialize the state of the edits as you displayed yesterday so that
> > they could be used as a zoomable reference to areas potentially
> needing review ?
> 
> Ehh... not sure OSMZmiany is the best tool for this. Once you get a lot
> of nodes loaded in, it takes up a few hundred MB of RAM and performs
> like crap. Like 5 seconds to zoom/pan. However I do have an idea or two
> to make something that would work better. I will have to tinker with it
> tonight and see if it is practical.

I can build a .osc file that represents all the bot changes to a given
square (e.g. LA)
It'll take a bit of coding so I might not get it done today, but it
shouldn't be too hard.

> 
> > I'm also wondering if a routing regression suite exists anywhere that
> > could be used to help identify broken interstates and other major
> > ways, as the tagging changes and 2 node bridges that were likely
> > deleted will take time to identify.
> 
> There was something like this back when the TIGER import was new to help
> people connect major highways across county lines. Does anyone know the
> technical details or if it would be practical to bring back?
> It is documented here:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup/250_cities/routing_grid

I think it's practical, I've given some thought to doing this. Maybe query
one of the routing services to build it.


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Re: [Talk-us] Post bot cleanup

[Alan Mintz]

At 2012-07-19 13:41, Phil! Gold wrote:

* Martijn van Exel  [2012-07-19 14:22 -0600]:
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Toby Murray  
wrote:

> > Any other common problems that people have seen?
>
> Another thing I find is a lot of leftover stray nodes without any tags.
> I select them in JOSM with type:node tags:0 -child and delete them in
> one fell swoop.

Eeek!  Be very careful with this!  The unconnected, untagged nodes were
left deliberately to facilitate recreation of roads, particularly the case
where a decliner split a TIGER way but did not change its geometry.  I've
been making use of these nodes in South Carolina to reconstruct the roads
there.


That _is_ a nice feature. One thing I would do (in JOSM) when first loading 
an area to work on is run the validator. This will find those orphan nodes, 
as well as crossing ways that don't intersect, etc. - indicators of things 
that need to be fixed.


While it might seem easier sometimes to delete and re-draw objects, be 
careful with objects that have source/source_ref values, as this says that 
a user has edited/confirmed that object (with the exception of some of the 
automated import sources), which should be considered the highest form of 
authenticity. Be careful of intersections with turn restrictions and their 
connecting roads. These render with little restriction signs on/near the 
intersection in JOSM and Potlatch.


Unfortunately, TIGER11 still has naming inaccuracies. I recently did this 
neighborhood with some new construction in Yorba Linda, CA: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=33.8987&lon=-117.8017&zoom=14&layers=M 
and put note tags on a number of roads that required research that 
ultimately contradicted TIGER. I think there were a couple more that were 
wrong that I did not annotate. That would be roughly 1-5% of the roads in 
the area, and a larger %age of the new roads. I've had a similar experience 
with new construction at Fort Irwin, CA and Victorville/Hesperia, CA. It 
seems to be worse for new construction areas, presumably because TIGER 
eventually gets some feedback to correct it. The issues are often obvious - 
look for mis-spellings of common words, lack of prefix or suffix (i.e. 
missing Via, Camino, St, Ave, Blvd), etc. Also look for names that are 
different from the pattern used in a given area, e.g., Piazza Maria, Piazza 
Angela, Piazza Gina, George, Piazza Donnatella. "George" is probably wrong 
here (missing prefix, non-Italian man's name).


I will say that TIGER11 road positioning and connectivity generally seems 
good now, even enough for GPS guidance.


Bing imagery is available down to zoom 19 (~26cm/pel) in virtually any area 
with a road, and even zoom 21 (~6cm/pel) in the most populous areas (though 
some of the patches close to downtown LA are "jagged", and look better at 
z19). I've confirmed that alignment accuracy is within about 5m of known 
benchmarks (personal surveys, FAA VORs, USGS benchmarks, CORS stations, 
etc.) at many points - enough to satisfy me that the imagery can be used.


--
Alan Mintz 


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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Phil! Gold]

* Charlotte Wolter  [2012-07-19 15:58 -0700]:
> That's great, but will it overwrite work that we've already
> done?

Presumably not.  Potlatch loads shapefiles into a separate layer and
requires mappers to manually pull the data into OSM.

> Also, is this something that works only in JOSM, in which
> case many of us couldn't use it?

No.  For one thing, Richard is the main developer of Potlatch and doesn't
do anything with JOSM.  For another thing, he mentioned "reworking the P2
source code"; "P2" refers to Potlatch 2.

> Also, I still don't understand why all the TIGER data was
> deleted on ways that were partially deleted.

Because of OpenStreetMap's data model.  When you split a way, what your
editor does is upload a changed version of the original that only
contains half the original nodes and then upload a new way with the same
tags as the old one that contains the other half of the nodes.  To
subsequent database queries, the second way appears as though you created
it and there's no direct link back to the way that originally contained
the nodes.

On top of that, there was a deliberate decision made (as I understand
things) not to undo deletions, which includes the removal of nodes from a
way.  Had the bot done that, there would be many places where the bot
would create multiple, overlapping, tangled ways.

Since either approach would have left significant messes for mappers to
clean up, there wasn't really a good way forward.  The people working on
the redaction bot felt that not undeleting would be the better of two bad
options.

-- 
...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/
PGP: 026A27F2  print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248  9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2
--- --
i am not interested in a penis for aesthetic purposes.
   -- isabelle whitman
 --- --

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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Richard Fairhurst]

On 19/07/2012 23:58, Charlotte Wolter wrote:

Richard,

I spent a couple of hours this morning reworking the P2 source code
so that it can load the entire TIGER 2011 road files for LA County
in one go without crashing.

That's great, but will it overwrite work that we've already done?
Also, is this something that works only in JOSM, in which case many of
us couldn't use it?


P2 = Potlatch 2. I'm the maintainer of the Potlatch code. I don't use 
JOSM unless someone threatens me with a cheese-grater. As I understand 
it, it's something that only works in Potlatch 2. :)


P2's background layers feature allows you to have TIGER data showing up 
as a background layer, and to alt-click it to bring it through to the 
main map. There is nothing automatic about it: you choose what you want 
to bring through. It's a fast, efficient way of working with third-party 
data sources without the disadvantages of automated imports.


As soon as the new version is available on openstreetmap.org I'll post 
further about how to use it (subject to being away from the computer 
this weekend).



Also, I still don't understand why all the TIGER data was deleted on
 ways that were partially deleted. I just found a piece of a motorway
 link to I-5 where the "bridge" part was deleted, but the road still
was visible in Potlatch. All the other TIGER data also was gone
(luckily, I knew what it was). Why was that done?


The redaction bot reverses changes made by decliners, _but_ it does not 
automatically undelete data that was deleted by decliners. Believe me, 
if it did the latter, the mess made of the map would be something to 
behold; there'd be random bits of road doubling up on existing highways 
here, there and everywhere. Neither option is easy but I'm certain that 
this one is the better.


cheers
Richard


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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Charlotte Wolter]

Richard,

That's great, but will it overwrite work that we've already done?
Also, is this something that works only in JOSM, in which 
case many of us couldn't use it?
Also, I still don't understand why all the TIGER data was 
deleted on ways that were partially deleted. I just found a piece of 
a motorway link to I-5 where the "bridge" part was deleted, but the 
road still was visible in Potlatch. All the other TIGER data also was 
gone (luckily, I knew what it was). Why was that done?


--C

At 03:40 PM 7/19/2012, you wrote:

Charlotte Wolter wrote:
> So, are you volunteering?  Anyone else?

I spent a couple of hours this morning reworking the P2 source code so that
it can load the entire TIGER 2011 road files for LA County in one go without
crashing. So yeah, that counts as volunteering to fix it in a way, I think.
:)

cheers
Richard



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Skype: thetechlady

The Four Internet Freedoms
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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Richard Fairhurst]

Charlotte Wolter wrote:
> So, are you volunteering?  Anyone else?

I spent a couple of hours this morning reworking the P2 source code so that
it can load the entire TIGER 2011 road files for LA County in one go without
crashing. So yeah, that counts as volunteering to fix it in a way, I think.
:)

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-us] Post bot cleanup

[Richard Fairhurst]

jerjozwik wrote:
> is anyone else noticing some ways have a name, a one way 
> direction, some other info, but no highway tag. so they dont 
> actually render in potlatch 2. the only reason i noticed them 
> way due to the oneway arrows being drawn on top of the 
> satellite image.

Everything's rendered in P2 - there's a special rule in the stylesheet that
says "if it's not been rendered, draw it as a plain black line".

_But_ if you have the full satellite display, you might not be able to
distinguish it easily. Use the "Dim" checkbox in the Background menu -
that'll help you see it.

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-us] Post bot cleanup

[Charlotte Wolter]

Phil,

Thanks for that info. But, why wasn't it sent out in a 
general mailing to the members? Lots of people who work assiduously 
on the maps can't stand the mailing lists (lots of sleep-inducing 
argument about obscure details of tagging with no final resolution).


--C


At 01:41 PM 7/19/2012, you wrote:

* Martijn van Exel  [2012-07-19 14:22 -0600]:
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Toby Murray 
 wrote:

> > Any other common problems that people have seen?
>
> Another thing I find is a lot of leftover stray nodes without any tags.
> I select them in JOSM with type:node tags:0 -child and delete them in
> one fell swoop.

Eeek!  Be very careful with this!  The unconnected, untagged nodes were
left deliberately to facilitate recreation of roads, particularly the case
where a decliner split a TIGER way but did not change its geometry.  I've
been making use of these nodes in South Carolina to reconstruct the roads
there.

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90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

The Four Internet Freedoms
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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Charlotte Wolter]

Alan,

Touche!  Yes, someone let us down and badly. Considering all 
the work we did, to have this result is really dispiriting
We need some tools so we at least can assess what needs to 
be done. Has anyone started to work on, as at least started to think 
about, the tool mentioned by Old Topo Depot earlier, one that would 
show where changes were made? That sounded like a great idea.
Also, did anyone answer my question about importing small 
bits of TIGER for Burbank, the San Fernando Valley and South Cental?
Meanwhile, I'm going back to sprucing up West LA. After all 
that time spent in downtown and Glendale, I need a break. I also 
can't bear the sight of Burbank or South Central.


Charlotte


At 12:47 PM 7/19/2012, you wrote:

At 2012-07-19 09:06, Robert Kaiser wrote:

Charlotte Wolter schrieb:

 Having looked over the damage and deletions for the last hour,
I feel the redaction has left the LA map essentially unusable. Huge
blocks of streets are missing, including major roads and some sections
of freeways.


Sounds like there's a lot of work for the community to do. I'm sure 
there is a community in LA with the knowledge to put data there 
that is correct and license-clean. If not, a good chance to build it up! :)


There was, yes. Even something that might be called momentum. There 
are those of us that put in literally blood, sweat, tears, and hard 
cold cash, who are not happy with the actions of those whose job it 
was to safeguard our work. That is all I will say.


--
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techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

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Re: [Talk-us] Post bot cleanup

[Toby Murray]

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 4:32 PM, jeremy jozwik  wrote:
> is anyone else noticing some ways have a name, a one way direction,
> some other info, but no highway tag. so they dont actually render in
> potlatch 2. the only reason i noticed them way due to the oneway
> arrows being drawn on top of the satellite image.

Yes, I saw something like this last night. I think it was a dual
carriageway which was originally split by a decliner and then
subsequently edited by an agreeing user so some of the tags stayed but
most of the important ones were gone. I'm not sure how to do an
effective search for this either. Many ways that aren't roads have a
name. I guess a oneway tag without a highway tag is highly suspicious
but that will only catch a few of these.

Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] Post bot cleanup

[jeremy jozwik]

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 2:01 PM, Mike N  wrote:
> On 7/19/2012 1:42 AM, Toby Murray wrote:
>>
>> Now that we're cleaning up after the license bot, what problems are
>> people seeing?
>
>
>   The biggest problem I have run into so far is the same 'foldback' problem
> Kai saw.  It's quite confusing when both sides of a dual carriageway are
> folded back and take the on- and off- ramps with them. Unwinding that is
> worse than any TIGER fixup.  Fortunately it hasn't happened very often.
> I'm tempted to just do a mass delete and rebuild of such an area instead of
> sorting it out.
>
>  FYI in South Carolina, I'm volunteering to clean up the northwestern part
> of the state because I have some local knowledge.
>
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is anyone else noticing some ways have a name, a one way direction,
some other info, but no highway tag. so they dont actually render in
potlatch 2. the only reason i noticed them way due to the oneway
arrows being drawn on top of the satellite image.

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Re: [Talk-us] Post bot cleanup

[Mike N]

On 7/19/2012 1:42 AM, Toby Murray wrote:

Now that we're cleaning up after the license bot, what problems are
people seeing?


  The biggest problem I have run into so far is the same 'foldback' 
problem Kai saw.  It's quite confusing when both sides of a dual 
carriageway are folded back and take the on- and off- ramps with them. 
Unwinding that is worse than any TIGER fixup.  Fortunately it hasn't 
happened very often.   I'm tempted to just do a mass delete and rebuild 
of such an area instead of sorting it out.


 FYI in South Carolina, I'm volunteering to clean up the northwestern 
part of the state because I have some local knowledge.


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Re: [Talk-us] Post bot cleanup

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi,

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Phil! Gold  wrote:
> * Martijn van Exel  [2012-07-19 14:22 -0600]:
>> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Toby Murray  wrote:
>> > Any other common problems that people have seen?
>>
>> Another thing I find is a lot of leftover stray nodes without any tags.
>> I select them in JOSM with type:node tags:0 -child and delete them in
>> one fell swoop.
>
> Eeek!  Be very careful with this!  The unconnected, untagged nodes were
> left deliberately to facilitate recreation of roads, particularly the case
> where a decliner split a TIGER way but did not change its geometry.  I've
> been making use of these nodes in South Carolina to reconstruct the roads
> there.

A fair word of caution! One should always be careful when deleting
stuff you have not manually selected. I almost never do this.
However, I don't see how leaving these nodes facilitates remapping. If
you are going to recreate a lost road that is based off of TIGER data,
you would likely want to improve the geometry anyway.
That said, searching for empty nodes gives you an idea of where ways
have been deleted by the redaction.

-- 
martijn van exel
http://oegeo.wordpress.com

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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Toby Murray]

And this time to the list... (cures you, lack of reply-to!)

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:16 AM, the Old Topo Depot
 wrote:
>
> Toby's post yesterday using the modified live edit bot osmZmiany seems a
> good way to help focus on areas.  Toby, do you think it possible to
> serialize the state of the edits as you displayed yesterday so that they
> could be used as a zoomable reference to areas potentially needing review ?

Ehh... not sure OSMZmiany is the best tool for this. Once you get a
lot of nodes loaded in, it takes up a few hundred MB of RAM and
performs like crap. Like 5 seconds to zoom/pan. However I do have an
idea or two to make something that would work better. I will have to
tinker with it tonight and see if it is practical.

> I'm also wondering if a routing regression suite exists anywhere that could
> be used to help identify broken interstates and other major ways, as the
> tagging changes and 2 node bridges that were likely deleted will take time
> to identify.

There was something like this back when the TIGER import was new to
help people connect major highways across county lines. Does anyone
know the technical details or if it would be practical to bring back?
It is documented here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup/250_cities/routing_grid

Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] Post bot cleanup

[Phil! Gold]

* Martijn van Exel  [2012-07-19 14:22 -0600]:
> On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Toby Murray  wrote:
> > Any other common problems that people have seen?
> 
> Another thing I find is a lot of leftover stray nodes without any tags.
> I select them in JOSM with type:node tags:0 -child and delete them in
> one fell swoop.

Eeek!  Be very careful with this!  The unconnected, untagged nodes were
left deliberately to facilitate recreation of roads, particularly the case
where a decliner split a TIGER way but did not change its geometry.  I've
been making use of these nodes in South Carolina to reconstruct the roads
there.

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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[jeremy jozwik]

do try to make more sense. like i said, this problem would go away
much faster if you would just go over to the osm and start rebuilding.
i have already done quite a bit today. how about you?

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:27 AM, Charlotte Wolter
 wrote:
> Jeremy,
>
> Achtung! If only one could "just fix it." Check it out for yourself.
> I am still assuming that you are volunteering.
>
> Charlotte
>
>
> At 10:56 AM 7/19/2012, you wrote:
>
> just stop this back and forth and start fixing the map. already this
> morning i rebuilt part of the 91 / 71 and ACH.
>
> ...just fix it.
>
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Charlotte Wolter
>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> So, are you volunteering?  Anyone else?
>>
>>
>> At 09:06 AM 7/19/2012, you wrote:
>>
>> Charlotte Wolter schrieb:
>>
>>  Having looked over the damage and deletions for the last hour,
>> I feel the redaction has left the LA map essentially unusable. Huge
>> blocks of streets are missing, including major roads and some sections
>> of freeways.
>>
>>
>> Sounds like there's a lot of work for the community to do. I'm sure there
>> is
>> a community in LA with the knowledge to put data there that is correct and
>> license-clean. If not, a good chance to build it up! :)
>>
>> Robert Kaiser
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> Charlotte Wolter
>> 927 18th Street Suite A
>> Santa Monica, California
>> 90403
>> +1-310-597-4040
>> techl...@techlady.com
>> Skype: thetechlady
>>
>> The Four Internet Freedoms
>> Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
>> Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
>> Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
>> Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would
>> affect the first three freedoms.
>>
>>
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>
> ___
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>
> Charlotte Wolter
> 927 18th Street Suite A
> Santa Monica, California
> 90403
> +1-310-597-4040
> techl...@techlady.com
> Skype: thetechlady
>
> The Four Internet Freedoms
> Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
> Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
> Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
> Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would
> affect the first three freedoms.

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Re: [Talk-us] Post bot cleanup

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi,

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Toby Murray  wrote:
> Any other common problems that people have seen?
>

Another thing I find is a lot of leftover stray nodes without any tags.
I select them in JOSM with type:node tags:0 -child and delete them in
one fell swoop.

-- 
martijn van exel
http://oegeo.wordpress.com

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Re: [Talk-us] LA and other license changeover challenged areas.

[Alan Mintz]

Uh, ignore this. I didn't mean it to go to the list, and, of course, didn't 
realize it was 5 months old.


At 2012-07-19 12:58, Alan Mintz wrote:

[off-list]

At 2012-01-30 08:48, Martijn van Exel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Nick Hocking  
wrote: > I have just "saved" one street in L.A.  (Loosmore Street) and 
hereby > award myself one SLAPÂ  (Save L.A. Point). > [...] Hee, I'd love 
to earn myself some SLAP points! I did reach out to user blars (who had 
been contacted before but hasn't decided as yet) and will wait for his 
response before I start remapping the area I was looking at (around 
Glendale I believe).


I gave it my best job of persuasion, and even managed to get a reply with 
which I attempted to build a bridge between he and the OSMF, but 
ultimately, it failed.


Even if he accepted now (which is extremely unlikely), it's too late once 
the redaction happens, right?


--
Alan Mintz 


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Re: [Talk-us] LA and other license changeover challenged areas.

[Alan Mintz]

[off-list]

At 2012-01-30 08:48, Martijn van Exel wrote:
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 1:05 PM, Nick Hocking  
wrote: > I have just "saved" one street in L.A.  (Loosmore Street) and 
hereby > award myself one SLAPÂ  (Save L.A. Point). > [...] Hee, I'd love 
to earn myself some SLAP points! I did reach out to user blars (who had 
been contacted before but hasn't decided as yet) and will wait for his 
response before I start remapping the area I was looking at (around 
Glendale I believe).


I gave it my best job of persuasion, and even managed to get a reply with 
which I attempted to build a bridge between he and the OSMF, but 
ultimately, it failed.


Even if he accepted now (which is extremely unlikely), it's too late once 
the redaction happens, right?


--
Alan Mintz 


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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Peter Dobratz]

On 7/19/12, Charlotte Wolter  wrote:
>  So, now, what can be done to fix it? Are there tools?

As previously mentioned, the best way is to actually visit these
places, take notes, and then use your favorite map editor to update
the map.

If you can't do that, or don't have time to do that, but want to work
on improving the map, you can still make the map better using
available information that has been approved for use in OSM.  This
technique is known as "armchair mapping."

Bing has made more easily available a lot of high quality aerial
photos of the world.  You can use these for images for drawing map
features such as roads, and also for aligning existing roads.

Once you have the roads traced in, various goverment agencies provide
public domain data that includes the road names.  The following page
shows instructions for making an overlay layer showing the names from
the TIGER 2011 dataset (public domain):

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_2011

This layer is just mostly transparent, but it shows the centerlines of
the roads from TIGER 2011 and has their abbreviated names printed next
to them.

Most of the map of the US was based on TIGER 2007, so I use this
sometimes when I notice roads on the images that aren't in the map and
I am not able to travel to the location I am looking at.

Before staring Armchair mapping, read the following disclaimer:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Armchair_mapping

Basically, aerial images can be out of date and/or mis-aligned (though
Bing is generally updated within 2 years and has decent alignment
(check other's uploaded GPS tracks)).  And check the history of what
is there in case a local mapper has made a more recent update to a
feature that might not be reflected in aerial images.  It's a good
idea to contact any local mappers before you make sweeping changes to
the area they are mapping in.

Peter

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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Alan Mintz]

At 2012-07-19 09:06, Robert Kaiser wrote:

Charlotte Wolter schrieb:

 Having looked over the damage and deletions for the last hour,
I feel the redaction has left the LA map essentially unusable. Huge
blocks of streets are missing, including major roads and some sections
of freeways.


Sounds like there's a lot of work for the community to do. I'm sure there 
is a community in LA with the knowledge to put data there that is correct 
and license-clean. If not, a good chance to build it up! :)


There was, yes. Even something that might be called momentum. There are 
those of us that put in literally blood, sweat, tears, and hard cold cash, 
who are not happy with the actions of those whose job it was to safeguard 
our work. That is all I will say.


--
Alan Mintz 


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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Serge Wroclawski]

Charlotte,

I was hoping when I saw your mail that you would have seen the words
you used in a different light and if not be apologetic, then at least
be understanding that these words have an effect on the community, as
well as on the individuals you've insulted.

Instead, you've decided to dig in your heels and stand by your position.

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 2:19 PM, Charlotte Wolter  wrote:

> First, I am among the majority of OSM members who do not program or
> write code. Yet, we also contribute, heavily. I don't think writing code
> makes one some kind of special contributor.

There are many ways of contributing to OpenStreetMap, from doing
survey work, to organizing communities, to dealing with administrative
issues, to programming the tools that are at the heart of the project,
to running the core infrastructure of the project.

Amazingly, the people behind the redaction process fit in every single
one of these categories. They've been with the project the longest,
have organized meetings, are on the OSMF board, run working groups,
and yes, they run the core infrastructure.

As for special contributors- are you saying that the people who
sacrifice their time, who work in hot, sweaty, difficult conditions,
who take time off of work and away from their families, who work at
all hours in the night and morning to keep OpenStreetMap running
deserve no recognition? Because those are the many of the people
behind the redaction process.

> Second, I am aware that many thousands of hours of volunteeer work
> went into this. I also know that we had to do it. Still, there has been a
> great deal of damage in a major urban area.

The damage does not come from the redaction, but by the acts of those
who are not taking part in the migration. If you want to lay blame,
lay it on the right parties.

> As for open and transparent, with that I'm not so sure. It may have
> been open and transparent if you know how to write code, but I saw little
> nontechnical discussion. Those of us who use only Potlatch were kind of on
> the sidelines.

The discussions took place for years on the Data Working Group, the
License Working Group and in the OSMF board, as well as other places.
The Working Groups are open to all, and all of the aforementioned
groups post meeting notes.

OSM was considering this transition before I even joined the project
(~4 years ago); I think ample notice has been given.

> So, now, what can be done to fix it? Are there tools?

GPSes and walking, biking, driving. Those are our core tools. You can
then overlay your collected data on top of a map using Potlatch or
Josm and draw the streets in. This is the core OSM workflow.

>  And will they  be publicized or will we have to find out about them through 
> side channels

You can find instructions on how to map OpenStreetMap in a variety of
forms. One of the more popular guides is the one written last year by
Kate Chapman, Ian Dees and Shaun McDonald.

http://en.flossmanuals.net/openstreetmap/index/

There's also the venerable Beginner's Guide on the OSM Wiki:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Beginners_Guide

In other words- the tools are to go out and map!

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Charlotte Wolter]

Jeremy,

Achtung! If only one could "just fix it." Check it out for yourself.
I am still assuming that you are volunteering.

Charlotte


At 10:56 AM 7/19/2012, you wrote:

just stop this back and forth and start fixing the map. already this
morning i rebuilt part of the 91 / 71 and ACH.

...just fix it.

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Charlotte Wolter
 wrote:
>
>
> So, are you volunteering?  Anyone else?
>
>
> At 09:06 AM 7/19/2012, you wrote:
>
> Charlotte Wolter schrieb:
>
>  Having looked over the damage and deletions for the last hour,
> I feel the redaction has left the LA map essentially unusable. Huge
> blocks of streets are missing, including major roads and some sections
> of freeways.
>
>
> Sounds like there's a lot of work for the community to do. I'm 
sure there is

> a community in LA with the knowledge to put data there that is correct and
> license-clean. If not, a good chance to build it up! :)
>
> Robert Kaiser
>
>
>
> ___
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> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
> Charlotte Wolter
> 927 18th Street Suite A
> Santa Monica, California
> 90403
> +1-310-597-4040
> techl...@techlady.com
> Skype: thetechlady
>
> The Four Internet Freedoms
> Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
> Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
> Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
> Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would
> affect the first three freedoms.
>
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>

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Charlotte Wolter
927 18th Street Suite A
Santa Monica, California
90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

The Four Internet Freedoms
Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that 
would affect the first three freedoms.
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Charlotte Wolter]

Serge,

First, I am among the majority of OSM members who do not 
program or write code. Yet, we also contribute, heavily. I don't 
think writing code makes one some kind of special contributor.
Second, I am aware that many thousands of hours of 
volunteeer work went into this. I also know that we had to do it. 
Still, there has been a great deal of damage in a major urban area.
As for open and transparent, with that I'm not so sure. It 
may have been open and transparent if you know how to write code, but 
I saw little nontechnical discussion. Those of us who use only 
Potlatch were kind of on the sidelines.
It's not enough just to do a good job technically. The 
process has to take into account the map in general and specific 
instances, such as LA. We could have used a "blars bot" to process 
work by that member who often simply changed or deleted TIGER data. 
Anything to prevent the scale of damage that's there now.
So, now, what can be done to fix it? Are there tools?  And 
will they be publicized or will we have to find out about them 
through side channels (which is how I found geofabrik.de)? The idea 
of a tools that highlights places that have been changed seems like a 
good start.


--C


At 09:19 AM 7/19/2012, you wrote:

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Charlotte Wolter
 wrote:

> This is very disappointing and, to my mind, wrongheaded. Poorly done!

When I see comments like this, I feel angry, because this bot came
from  hard working volunteers who give up their valuable time. Not
only are these particular volunteers valuable for their mapping, but
also for their tireless work dealing with the worldwide politics of
the license transition, and of the very difficult technical issues
associated with fixing an entire planet's work of OpenStreetMap data.

The redaction isn't something that was dreamed up yesterday, but
represents years of discussion, a completely open and transparent
process, and months of codification and testing.

If you had constructive input to give, there was a well documented
time and place for that, or better yet would have been an offer to
contribute working code. Comments like this do nothing to further the
discussion or make any forward progress.

If you want to fix the map using TIGER data, TIGER 2011 tiles are
provided for remapping, or, better still would be on the ground
surveying.

As for the feasibility- most nations have been mapped with no
government provided data. If most of Europe, South America, Africa,
and developing nations can manage to map without government data, I
think the citizens of the nation's second most populated city can
manage.

- Serge

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927 18th Street Suite A
Santa Monica, California
90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

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Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that 
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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Toby Murray]

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 12:53 PM, Charlotte Wolter
 wrote:
>
> So, are you volunteering?  Anyone else?

Sure. I think I've already fixed up most of the bot damage in Kansas.
I will be contributing in other places as I have time. LA will
certainly be towards the top of my list.

Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[jeremy jozwik]

just stop this back and forth and start fixing the map. already this
morning i rebuilt part of the 91 / 71 and ACH.

...just fix it.

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Charlotte Wolter
 wrote:
>
>
> So, are you volunteering?  Anyone else?
>
>
> At 09:06 AM 7/19/2012, you wrote:
>
> Charlotte Wolter schrieb:
>
>  Having looked over the damage and deletions for the last hour,
> I feel the redaction has left the LA map essentially unusable. Huge
> blocks of streets are missing, including major roads and some sections
> of freeways.
>
>
> Sounds like there's a lot of work for the community to do. I'm sure there is
> a community in LA with the knowledge to put data there that is correct and
> license-clean. If not, a good chance to build it up! :)
>
> Robert Kaiser
>
>
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
> Charlotte Wolter
> 927 18th Street Suite A
> Santa Monica, California
> 90403
> +1-310-597-4040
> techl...@techlady.com
> Skype: thetechlady
>
> The Four Internet Freedoms
> Freedom to visit any site on the Internet
> Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
> Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
> Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that would
> affect the first three freedoms.
>
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> Talk-us@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>

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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Charlotte Wolter]

So, are you volunteering?  Anyone else?


At 09:06 AM 7/19/2012, you wrote:

Charlotte Wolter schrieb:

 Having looked over the damage and deletions for the last hour,
I feel the redaction has left the LA map essentially unusable. Huge
blocks of streets are missing, including major roads and some sections
of freeways.


Sounds like there's a lot of work for the community to do. I'm sure 
there is a community in LA with the knowledge to put data there that 
is correct and license-clean. If not, a good chance to build it up! :)


Robert Kaiser



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90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

The Four Internet Freedoms
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Freedom to access any content or service that is not illegal
Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that 
would affect the first three freedoms.
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Charlotte Wolter wrote:

> Do you have any idea how big LA is?


Do you have any idea how big the rest of the world is?  It's not always
about LA, sister.  Get over it and start fixing.
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi,

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 10:04 AM, Charlotte Wolter
 wrote:
>
>
> Do you have any idea how big LA is? You can't just delete huge
> sections of the San Fernando Valley and start over. Start over from what?
> With no street names? That's just not feasible.
>
> --C

This is, however, how OpenStreetMap started and operated from 2005 to
2007, when we got access to Yahoo! imagery. Before Yahoo! it was all
GPS and ground surveying. And even with access to aerial imagery, we
still need to go out there and collect street names in most parts of
the world. Here we at least have TIGER. So yes, it's feasible. It
won't be perfect overnight, but then again, it probably wasn't to
begin with.

-- 
martijn van exel
http://oegeo.wordpress.com

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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 8:53 AM, Charlotte Wolter wrote:

>  Everyone,
>
> ****Having looked over the damage and deletions for the last
> hour, I feel the redaction has left the LA map essentially unusable. Huge
> blocks of streets are missing, including major roads and some sections of
> freeways.
> ****Do we think that the US map can have any validity if it
> doesn't include LA?
>
>
To be fair, folks outside California generally are of the opinion that the
US would have more validity if it didn't include LA. ;o)
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Alexander Jones]

Charlotte Wolter wrote:

> 
> 
>  Do you have any idea how big LA is? You can't just delete
> huge sections of the San Fernando Valley and start over. Start over
> from what? With no street names? That's just not feasible.
> 
> --C
> 

What I meant is, well... I use the awesome TIGER 2011 overlay in JOSM. I 
know the Valley is different from Visalia (in the other Valley), but it's 
easier for me to draw new ways than realign old ones.

If the way is reasonably correct, I'd just realign it. My strategy is 
intended for ways that are horribly misaligned. Like in Visalia.

Alexander


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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Charlotte Wolter
 wrote:

> This is very disappointing and, to my mind, wrongheaded. Poorly done!

When I see comments like this, I feel angry, because this bot came
from  hard working volunteers who give up their valuable time. Not
only are these particular volunteers valuable for their mapping, but
also for their tireless work dealing with the worldwide politics of
the license transition, and of the very difficult technical issues
associated with fixing an entire planet's work of OpenStreetMap data.

The redaction isn't something that was dreamed up yesterday, but
represents years of discussion, a completely open and transparent
process, and months of codification and testing.

If you had constructive input to give, there was a well documented
time and place for that, or better yet would have been an offer to
contribute working code. Comments like this do nothing to further the
discussion or make any forward progress.

If you want to fix the map using TIGER data, TIGER 2011 tiles are
provided for remapping, or, better still would be on the ground
surveying.

As for the feasibility- most nations have been mapped with no
government provided data. If most of Europe, South America, Africa,
and developing nations can manage to map without government data, I
think the citizens of the nation's second most populated city can
manage.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[the Old Topo Depot]

Certainly the significant data loss in areas is suboptimal, and
reconstruction will take time.

It seems that significant challenges are identifying areas most impacted
and prioritizing reconstruction efforts.

Toby's post yesterday using the modified live edit bot osmZmiany seems a
good way to help focus on areas.  Toby, do you think it possible to
serialize the state of the edits as you displayed yesterday so that they
could be used as a zoomable reference to areas potentially needing review ?

I'm also wondering if a routing regression suite exists anywhere that could
be used to help identify broken interstates and other major ways, as the
tagging changes and 2 node bridges that were likely deleted will take time
to identify.

Perhaps pages on the wiki noting reviews of interstates and mojor
reconstruction of specific areas would be useful as well.

Best,


-- 
John Novak
585-OLD-TOPOS (585-653-8676)
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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Dave Hansen]

Are there any tools like imagery layers so we can see what the redaction
bot _actually_ hit in detail?  I didn't see anything on the wiki pages.

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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Toby Murray]

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:05 AM, James Umbanhowar  wrote:
> On Thursday, July 19, 2012 12:02:29 PM Toby Murray wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Charlotte Wolter
>>
>>  wrote:
>> > Everyone,
>> >
>> > Having looked over the damage and deletions for the last hour, I
>> >
>> > feel the redaction has left the LA map essentially unusable. Huge blocks
>> > of streets are missing, including major roads and some sections of
>> > freeways.
>> >
>> > Do we think that the US map can have any validity if it doesn't
>> >
>> > include LA?
>>
>> This was pretty much expected according to the license tools that were
>> available before the bot started running. Same with some parts of
>> North Carolina and parts of the interstate system. It will get fixed.
>> Not in a day or a week... but it will get fixed. Just be glad you
>> don't live in Poland or Australia :)
>>
>> Toby
>>
>
> You mean South Carolina, right?  Or did I miss a big part of my state?

Oops. Yes, you are correct.

Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Richard Fairhurst]

Toby Murray wrote:
> The good news is that TIGER data is still available to help in
> remapping. The TIGER 2011 tiles were recently discussed on 
> this mailing list:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_2011

Indeed: and Ian, Andy and I have this afternoon briefly discussed making
this available on a server so it can be pulled through into OSM by mappers.

I've also done some work today on getting Potlatch 2 to load _big_
shapefiles, and tested it on the 55Mb shapefile for LA County. It's not
fast, but it works. This too provides a really easy way to get the latest
TIGER data into OSM, and once the new version is deployed I'll post some
instructions here.

Charlotte Wolter wrote:
> Do we think that the US map can have any validity if it 
> doesn't include LA?

Depends whether you visit LA I guess ;) , but assuming you do, let's roll up
our sleeves and fix it. I don't think that one self-proclaimed viking
deciding not to agree to the new licence completely damns OSM!

cheers
Richard



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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Robert Kaiser]

Charlotte Wolter schrieb:

 Having looked over the damage and deletions for the last hour,
I feel the redaction has left the LA map essentially unusable. Huge
blocks of streets are missing, including major roads and some sections
of freeways.


Sounds like there's a lot of work for the community to do. I'm sure 
there is a community in LA with the knowledge to put data there that is 
correct and license-clean. If not, a good chance to build it up! :)


Robert Kaiser



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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[James Umbanhowar]

On Thursday, July 19, 2012 12:02:29 PM Toby Murray wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Charlotte Wolter
> 
>  wrote:
> > Everyone,
> > 
> > Having looked over the damage and deletions for the last hour, I
> > 
> > feel the redaction has left the LA map essentially unusable. Huge blocks
> > of streets are missing, including major roads and some sections of
> > freeways.
> > 
> > Do we think that the US map can have any validity if it doesn't
> > 
> > include LA?
> 
> This was pretty much expected according to the license tools that were
> available before the bot started running. Same with some parts of
> North Carolina and parts of the interstate system. It will get fixed.
> Not in a day or a week... but it will get fixed. Just be glad you
> don't live in Poland or Australia :)
> 
> Toby
> 

You mean South Carolina, right?  Or did I miss a big part of my state?

James

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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Charlotte Wolter]

Do you have any idea how big LA is? You can't just delete 
huge sections of the San Fernando Valley and start over. Start over 
from what? With no street names? That's just not feasible.


--C


At 08:37 AM 7/19/2012, you wrote:

Charlotte Wolter wrote:

> Hello all,
>
>  The damage in LA is much more severe: missing segments of
> freeways, roads gone.
>  I thought the bot was supposed to be "smart" enough to
> subnstitute TIGER data when eliminating data by nonsigners. But that
> has not been done. I am finding many streets (and not ones too new to
> be in TiGER) that simply have been deleted. This is very
> disappointing and, to my mind, wrongheaded. Poorly done!
>  Why did the bot people never talk to anyone working on LA?
> That would have been important since it is an area with so much damage.
>
> --C
>
>

I completely understand your point. I, on the other hand, prefer to work
with a blank slate. I'd personally prefer an area with no streets to an area
with several broken, disconnected roads. I honestly would end up just
deleting them anyway.

Just my two Lincolns.

Alexander


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techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

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Re: [Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Toby Murray]

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Charlotte Wolter
 wrote:
> Everyone,
>
> Having looked over the damage and deletions for the last hour, I
> feel the redaction has left the LA map essentially unusable. Huge blocks of
> streets are missing, including major roads and some sections of freeways.
> Do we think that the US map can have any validity if it doesn't
> include LA?

This was pretty much expected according to the license tools that were
available before the bot started running. Same with some parts of
North Carolina and parts of the interstate system. It will get fixed.
Not in a day or a week... but it will get fixed. Just be glad you
don't live in Poland or Australia :)

Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] Missing streets

[Charlotte Wolter]

How did I get that idea? From other members who said that 
data would be prerserved.
The reason I had to rely on reports from other members was 
that there was no information from those doing the redaction. They 
sent out no notices about what would be done or how it would be done. 
There was lots of speculation on the lists, but no actual 
information. The schedule always was sketchy and uncertain, again 
because nothing was announced until the last minute. April 1 came and 
went and there were no updates about progress on the redaction or 
when it would begin until a couple of weeks ago.
In short, communication sucked. Apparently no one felt it 
was important to let people know the details of what was happening.


--C


At 08:31 AM 7/19/2012, you wrote:

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Charlotte Wolter
 wrote:
>
> This is how a section of burbank looks today. Where are4 the
> supposed TIGER streets??

How did you get the impression that the redaction bot was going to import?

Also, some mappers chose to wait until the redaction bot ran to remap.
 Others chose to remap in advance.  That's fine.  Why would you
criticize them?

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techl...@techlady.com
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[Talk-us] LA part of the map essentially is unusable

[Charlotte Wolter]

Everyone,

Having looked over the damage and deletions for the last 
hour, I feel the redaction has left the LA map essentially unusable. 
Huge blocks of streets are missing, including major roads and some 
sections of freeways.
Do we think that the US map can have any validity if it 
doesn't include LA?


Charlotte


Charlotte Wolter
927 18th Street Suite A
Santa Monica, California
90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

The Four Internet Freedoms
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Freedom to attach any device that does not interfere with the network
Freedom to know all the terms of a service, particularly any that 
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Toby Murray]

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 10:05 AM, Charlotte Wolter
 wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> The damage in LA is much more severe: missing segments of freeways,
> roads gone.
> I thought the bot was supposed to be "smart" enough to subnstitute
> TIGER data when eliminating data by nonsigners. But that has not been done.
> I am finding many streets (and not ones too new to be in TiGER) that simply
> have been deleted. This is very disappointing and, to my mind, wrongheaded.
> Poorly done!
> Why did the bot people never talk to anyone working on LA? That
> would have been important since it is an area with so much damage.

Well the decision was made to not restore objects that were deleted by
decliners. There was no special handling of TIGER data. There are some
good arguments for this approach but it also creates some problems.
Probably particularly in the US where the TIGER data is sometimes so
bad that mappers choose to just delete it and start from scratch. I'm
honestly not sure if it would have been better overall if deleted
objects had been restored or not. It would probably have led to a lot
of duplicated roads and overlapping things which are pretty hard to
deal with.

The good news is that TIGER data is still available to help in
remapping. The TIGER 2011 tiles were recently discussed on this
mailing list:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_2011

Toby

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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Alexander Jones]

Charlotte Wolter wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
>  The damage in LA is much more severe: missing segments of
> freeways, roads gone.
>  I thought the bot was supposed to be "smart" enough to
> subnstitute TIGER data when eliminating data by nonsigners. But that
> has not been done. I am finding many streets (and not ones too new to
> be in TiGER) that simply have been deleted. This is very
> disappointing and, to my mind, wrongheaded. Poorly done!
>  Why did the bot people never talk to anyone working on LA?
> That would have been important since it is an area with so much damage.
> 
> --C
> 
> 

I completely understand your point. I, on the other hand, prefer to work 
with a blank slate. I'd personally prefer an area with no streets to an area 
with several broken, disconnected roads. I honestly would end up just 
deleting them anyway.

Just my two Lincolns.

Alexander


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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Richard Weait]

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:05 AM, Charlotte Wolter
 wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> The damage in LA is much more severe: missing segments of freeways,
> roads gone.

Rancho Cucamonga is still in progress.  Ridgecrest will follow shortly
after and those should be the final two areas in the Lower 48 for
redaction.

http://harrywood.dev.openstreetmap.org/license-change/botprocessing.php?zoom=6&lat=34.91665&lon=-118.6233&layers=B00FTTFF

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Re: [Talk-us] Missing streets

[Richard Weait]

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 11:13 AM, Charlotte Wolter
 wrote:
>
> This is how a section of burbank looks today. Where are4 the
> supposed TIGER streets??

How did you get the impression that the redaction bot was going to import?

Also, some mappers chose to wait until the redaction bot ran to remap.
 Others chose to remap in advance.  That's fine.  Why would you
criticize them?

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[Talk-us] Missing streets

[Charlotte Wolter]

This is how a section of burbank looks today. Where are4 the 
supposed TIGER streets??

http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit?lat=34.10994&lon=-118.26153&zoom=17

Charlotte


Charlotte Wolter
927 18th Street Suite A
Santa Monica, California
90403
+1-310-597-4040
techl...@techlady.com
Skype: thetechlady

The Four Internet Freedoms
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[Talk-us] Fwd: Re: Post bot cleanup

[Charlotte Wolter]

Hello all,

The damage in LA is much more severe: missing segments of 
freeways, roads gone.
I thought the bot was supposed to be "smart" enough to 
subnstitute TIGER data when eliminating data by nonsigners. But that 
has not been done. I am finding many streets (and not ones too new to 
be in TiGER) that simply have been deleted. This is very 
disappointing and, to my mind, wrongheaded. Poorly done!
Why did the bot people never talk to anyone working on LA? 
That would have been important since it is an area with so much damage.


--C



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From: Martijn van Exel 
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2012 08:14:56 -0600
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Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Post bot cleanup
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Hi,

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Toby Murray  wrote:
[..]
>
> Any other common problems that people have seen?
>
 I get the road spaghetti in non-motorway settings too. Example in
Salt Lake: 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x2vwbfnz2ag0sjd/Java%20OpenStreetMap%20Editor_2012-07-19_08-05-05.png

They're usually easy to spot, but searching for user:"OSMF Redaction
Account" in JOSM helps too.
Phil's broken motorways I've seen too.
Other things I've seen quite a bit but may be specific to my local pet
disagreers:
* Empty areas, or remnants of areas, that used to be landuse or admin
boundaries.
* Vanished traffic signals.
* Vanished metadata on ways (maxspeed, lanes, access, highway type).
This is much harder to spot, except where a part of a way has suddenly
become residential where the rest is still tertiary.


--
martijn van exel
http://oegeo.wordpress.com

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[Talk-us] National Map Corps Revived - And Using the OSM Stack

[Ian Dees]

Hi everyone,

I saw a tweet from @USGS today mentioning that the National Map Corps are
starting up again. If you don't know what the National Map Corps is, think
of it like "OpenStreetMap for the US Government". Volunteer mappers
correcting and adding to the topo maps all over the country. I'm sure there
are others with much more information, but it was a pretty epic project and
is the source for lots of the free and public domain data we use to this
day.

For the last year or two (or three?) Eric Wolf's been working to adapt the
OpenStreetMap stack to the USGS's needs, and it looks like it that work has
finally been released. Check out this video for more information:
http://gallery.usgs.gov/videos/552. Skip to 4:10 or so to see it in action.

Hopefully Eric and others will respond here and tell us more about it!

-Ian
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Re: [Talk-us] Post bot cleanup

[Martijn van Exel]

Hi,

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Toby Murray  wrote:
[..]
>
> Any other common problems that people have seen?
>
 I get the road spaghetti in non-motorway settings too. Example in
Salt Lake: 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/x2vwbfnz2ag0sjd/Java%20OpenStreetMap%20Editor_2012-07-19_08-05-05.png
They're usually easy to spot, but searching for user:"OSMF Redaction
Account" in JOSM helps too.
Phil's broken motorways I've seen too.
Other things I've seen quite a bit but may be specific to my local pet
disagreers:
* Empty areas, or remnants of areas, that used to be landuse or admin
boundaries.
* Vanished traffic signals.
* Vanished metadata on ways (maxspeed, lanes, access, highway type).
This is much harder to spot, except where a part of a way has suddenly
become residential where the rest is still tertiary.


-- 
martijn van exel
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Re: [Talk-us] Post bot cleanup

[Phil! Gold]

* Phil! Gold  [2012-07-19 07:50 -0400]:
> Probably the most common thing I've seen is what TIGER road splits look
> like: one way (usually leading up to a bridge), followed by a string of
> unconnected nodes.  Fixing these is pretty easy: click along the
> unconnected nodes to draw a way connecting them (and recreate the bridge
> or whatever, of course).  Having Bing or other imagery underneath helps
> you know when to stop or keep going.

Actually, I realized, Ian Dees' TIGER 2011 tiles work even better.

-- 
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 --- --

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Re: [Talk-us] Post bot cleanup

[Phil! Gold]

* Toby Murray  [2012-07-19 00:42 -0500]:
> Any other common problems that people have seen?

Probably the most common thing I've seen is what TIGER road splits look
like: one way (usually leading up to a bridge), followed by a string of
unconnected nodes.  Fixing these is pretty easy: click along the
unconnected nodes to draw a way connecting them (and recreate the bridge
or whatever, of course).  Having Bing or other imagery underneath helps
you know when to stop or keep going.

I've also seen a bunch of motorway_links without oneway tags, so that's
definitely something to keep in mind.  Are there other important,
non-obvious tags that it would be good to specifically be checking for?

-- 
...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/
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[Talk-us] Redaction progress

[Richard Fairhurst]

Current state of affairs:

- North America is mostly complete. The bot is still working in Los 
Angeles and Victoria (Canada). There are one or two failed or incomplete 
areas which are marked in red on the progress map; these are being 
retried individually. Haiti/Dominican Republic has been left out of this 
initial run to give a little more time for remapping.


- Western Europe is also mostly complete. Some complex areas in Germany 
are still being processed. Redaction in Poland has paused after 
initially being processed with a whitelist missing (with the associated 
changes now reverted) and will resume as part of the final whole-world pass.


- Belarus is complete.

- Redaction is now underway in Australia, starting from the south coast.

- Progress map link:
http://harrywood.dev.openstreetmap.org/license-change/botprocessing.php

Please edit the To: line and make sure any follow-ups go to the relevant 
local mailing list only. :)


cheers
Richard


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