Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town
On Sat, Feb 1, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Sebastian Arcus s.ar...@open-t.co.uk wrote: All of that doesn't really exist in the US, if my knowledge serves me right. Even the smallest of settlements (bigger than a farm) seemed to have started in the US around a group of facilities, such as shops, entertainment venues, trading facilities etc. - which would directly correspond functionally to a town. In the developing USA, a major milestone was the opening of a post office. Thus it was not a real named town until the post office moved in. These days in California the creation of dissolution of a municipal entity is controlled Local Agency Formation Commissions or LAFCOS (Under Title 5, Division 3 of California Government Code the Cortese-Knox-Hertzberg Act). A new community requires 500 people represented. But an older community can wither down to nothing as long as it continues to meet all other obligations. Similarly a town can loose it's post office without loosing status as a municipal entity. And it can keep it's name (Town or City) no matter how small it goes. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town
On February 1, 2014 7:04:43 PM CST, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: On 2/1/14 3:59 PM, Sebastian Arcus wrote: I have some trouble though with the notion of village in the US. Looking back to what I know about US (which could be partially wrong), I'm not sure they really have the true notion of village as per many other places in the world. In the US, it always seemed to be about isolated farms, and towns. Both from a size point of view, but most importantly from a functional point of view. In Europe and other parts of the world, the notion of village is steeped in a long history of a group of people working the land, and many times being subject to the authority of one local land owner. All of that doesn't really exist in the US, if my knowledge serves me right. Even the smallest of settlements (bigger than a farm) seemed to have started in the US around a group of facilities, such as shops, entertainment venues, trading facilities etc. - which would directly correspond functionally to a town. Village is something that will vary. in NY, a village is an incorporated governmental entity which is much smaller than a city. (all of what follows is NY specific, by the way). where as a county in NY (NYC excepted) is completely tiled by cities and towns, villages are mostly contained within towns (but some villages do cross town boundaries.) in NY, Hamlet is the term used for random place names where there isn't a corresponding governmental entity. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us The definitions vary widely, state by state. In Virginia, a town or village may have its own local government, but is subordinate to the government of the county containing it. A city in Virginia, by contrast, has a local government on the same level as a county government, and is not considered to be part of the county even if it is completely surrounded by the county. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town
Note that if you delete the node, the city name will no longer be rendered on osm.org http://osm.org or Mapquest Open. Not sure about other renderings but I'm guessing a lot of them do the same thing. Another way of fixing the nominatim problem is to create a boundary relation for the city. Move the tags from the way to the relation and then add the node to the relation with a role of label as this will cause nominatim to merge the two into a single entity while still rendering the name on the map. Thanks to everybody for pitching in on this. I went in the end with the relation idea and merging all the tags from both the node and the way as tags of the relation. I'm slightly confused as I think it would have made sense that the way should have a membership role of boundary, but JOSM didn't like that, so I had to use boundary as the type of the relation - which I find confusing. It's the first time I work with relations, so if somebody could double-check what I did came out OK, I'd be grateful. As a side-note, I find it a bit bizarre that the municipality has the power to name itself whatever it well pleases in California, as opposed to the state or federal government deciding if a place is a town, city etc. based on some objective criteria. It must be working for them though :-) I have some trouble though with the notion of village in the US. Looking back to what I know about US (which could be partially wrong), I'm not sure they really have the true notion of village as per many other places in the world. In the US, it always seemed to be about isolated farms, and towns. Both from a size point of view, but most importantly from a functional point of view. In Europe and other parts of the world, the notion of village is steeped in a long history of a group of people working the land, and many times being subject to the authority of one local land owner. All of that doesn't really exist in the US, if my knowledge serves me right. Even the smallest of settlements (bigger than a farm) seemed to have started in the US around a group of facilities, such as shops, entertainment venues, trading facilities etc. - which would directly correspond functionally to a town. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town
On 2/1/14 3:59 PM, Sebastian Arcus wrote: I have some trouble though with the notion of village in the US. Looking back to what I know about US (which could be partially wrong), I'm not sure they really have the true notion of village as per many other places in the world. In the US, it always seemed to be about isolated farms, and towns. Both from a size point of view, but most importantly from a functional point of view. In Europe and other parts of the world, the notion of village is steeped in a long history of a group of people working the land, and many times being subject to the authority of one local land owner. All of that doesn't really exist in the US, if my knowledge serves me right. Even the smallest of settlements (bigger than a farm) seemed to have started in the US around a group of facilities, such as shops, entertainment venues, trading facilities etc. - which would directly correspond functionally to a town. Village is something that will vary. in NY, a village is an incorporated governmental entity which is much smaller than a city. (all of what follows is NY specific, by the way). where as a county in NY (NYC excepted) is completely tiled by cities and towns, villages are mostly contained within towns (but some villages do cross town boundaries.) in NY, Hamlet is the term used for random place names where there isn't a corresponding governmental entity. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town
If a search is done for Fortuna, CA in OSM, two different entities show up at the top, for the same thing. One is from a TIGER import, one is from a GNIS import. One is a node the other one is for the boundaries of the place. I assume a place doesn't need to have both a node and a way. If I delete the node, do I copy all its tags and place them on the way? Would that result in a confusing soup of both TIGER specific and GNIS specific tags? Is that still OK? On top of it, one of them claims Fortuna, CA is a town, while the other claims it is a city. I suppose this one can be settled with a research through some other online and offline resources - so not a biggie. When I was there it definitely seemed like a town and not a city to me - but I'm not sure what rules are used for this type of classification in the US. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town
I generally copy the tags to the boundary (in JOSM copy the node, then paste tags into the way). The tiger and gnis tags do not overlap. The GNISID is a particularly useful tag to preserve. Town vs. City is a matter of opinion. You can visit the municipal website and use whatever term they use more often. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town
On 1/29/14 2:14 PM, Sebastian Arcus wrote: If a search is done for Fortuna, CA in OSM, two different entities show up at the top, for the same thing. One is from a TIGER import, one is from a GNIS import. One is a node the other one is for the boundaries of the place. I assume a place doesn't need to have both a node and a way. If I delete the node, do I copy all its tags and place them on the way? Would that result in a confusing soup of both TIGER specific and GNIS specific tags? Is that still OK? On top of it, one of them claims Fortuna, CA is a town, while the other claims it is a city. I suppose this one can be settled with a research through some other online and offline resources - so not a biggie. When I was there it definitely seemed like a town and not a city to me - but I'm not sure what rules are used for this type of classification in the US. terms like town and city generally have specific legal meanings in the US, and those meanings vary from state to state. this is one where in all likelyhood you should leave it to a local mapper, or consult with a knowledgeable CA mapper about the situation there. i know the NY political/admin boundary situation tolerably well but i would _never_ assume that i was qualified to tinker with this data in CA based on my current knowledge. now if the data from the GNIS import is reflected reasonably well on the TIGER boundary, i'd say delete the GNIS node. the lat/long from the GNIS node is probably a reasonable approximation to some concept of center, but otherwise the boundary conveys a lot more information. most of the tags from the GNIS import aren't terribly interesting. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town
On 1/29/14 2:23 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: I generally copy the tags to the boundary (in JOSM copy the node, then paste tags into the way). The tiger and gnis tags do not overlap. The GNISID is a particularly useful tag to preserve. gnisid may be the only one worth saving, most of the GNIS: tags are really worthless. Town vs. City is a matter of opinion. You can visit the municipal website and use whatever term they use more often. er, no. depends on the state. in NY, town, city, village, hamlet, and borough all have very distinct legal meanings and there is no opinion about it. i would not presume to judge these terms in CA. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town
Note that if you delete the node, the city name will no longer be rendered on osm.org or Mapquest Open. Not sure about other renderings but I'm guessing a lot of them do the same thing. Another way of fixing the nominatim problem is to create a boundary relation for the city. Move the tags from the way to the relation and then add the node to the relation with a role of label as this will cause nominatim to merge the two into a single entity while still rendering the name on the map. Toby On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 1:37 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.netwrote: On 1/29/14 2:23 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: I generally copy the tags to the boundary (in JOSM copy the node, then paste tags into the way). The tiger and gnis tags do not overlap. The GNISID is a particularly useful tag to preserve. gnisid may be the only one worth saving, most of the GNIS: tags are really worthless. Town vs. City is a matter of opinion. You can visit the municipal website and use whatever term they use more often. er, no. depends on the state. in NY, town, city, village, hamlet, and borough all have very distinct legal meanings and there is no opinion about it. i would not presume to judge these terms in CA. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town
From: Richard Welty [mailto:rwe...@averillpark.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2014 11:32 AM To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town On top of it, one of them claims Fortuna, CA is a town, while the other claims it is a city. I suppose this one can be settled with a research through some other online and offline resources - so not a biggie. When I was there it definitely seemed like a town and not a city to me - but I'm not sure what rules are used for this type of classification in the US. terms like town and city generally have specific legal meanings in the US, and those meanings vary from state to state. this is one where in all likelyhood you should leave it to a local mapper, or consult with a knowledgeable CA mapper about the situation there. i know the NY political/admin boundary situation tolerably well but i would _never_ assume that i was qualified to tinker with this data in CA based on my current knowledge. You also need to remember that town and city as it applies to OSM tagging are British English terms, not American terms. By American definitions, Humboldt County would have 7 cities: Arcata, Blue Lake, Eureka, Ferndale, Fortuna, Dio Dell, and Trinidad, but not all of these are cities. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town
On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: terms like town and city generally have specific legal meanings in the US, and those meanings vary from state to state. this is one where in all likelyhood you should leave it to a local mapper, or consult with a knowledgeable CA mapper about the situation there. As a California mapper and mapping geek: Fortuna calls itself a city at http://friendlyfortuna.com/ , no other level of CA government will contradict that. most of the tags from the GNIS import aren't terribly interesting. The gnis:id=277520 and perhaps gnis:Class= and ele= tags are interesting, as is census:population=. Note the ele= in this case is meters. Tag gnis:id=277520 is the main one to preserve, however, as the rest can be derived. You can also do cool lookups like: http://geonames.usgs.gov/apex/f?p=136:3:0::NO:3:P3_FID,P3_TITLE:277520,Fortuna And learn the present placename was adopted in the year 1888, the town was also known as Fortune, Friendly City, Slide and (yet again) Springfield. Every US Federal agency is required... required... to use GNIS, so the gnis:id is a non-fuzzy key to a wealth of interesting data. The non-fuzzy part is important. *The [gnis] database assigns a unique, permanent feature identifier, the Feature ID, as the only standard Federal key for accessing, integrating, or reconciling feature data from multiple data sets.* ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town
On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: terms like town and city generally have specific legal meanings in the US, and those meanings vary from state to state. this is one where in all likelyhood you should leave it to a local mapper, or consult with a knowledgeable CA mapper about the situation there. As a California mapper and mapping geek: Fortuna calls itself a city at http://friendlyfortuna.com/ , no other level of CA government will contradict that. most of the tags from the GNIS import aren't terribly interesting. The gnis:id=277520 and perhaps gnis:Class= and ele= tags are interesting, as is census:population=. Note the ele= in this case is meters. Tag gnis:id=277520 is the main one to preserve, however, as the rest can be derived. You can also do cool lookups like: http://geonames.usgs.gov/apex/f?p=136:3:0::NO:3:P3_FID,P3_TITLE:277520,Fortuna And learn the present placename was adopted in the year 1888, the town was also known as Fortune, Friendly City, Slide and (yet again) Springfield. Every US Federal agency is required... required... to use GNIS, so the gnis:id is a non-fuzzy key to a wealth of interesting data. The non-fuzzy part is important. *The [gnis] database assigns a unique, permanent feature identifier, the Feature ID, as the only standard Federal key for accessing, integrating, or reconciling feature data from multiple data sets.* ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town
On 1/29/14 4:48 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 11:31 AM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote: terms like town and city generally have specific legal meanings in the US, and those meanings vary from state to state. this is one where in all likelyhood you should leave it to a local mapper, or consult with a knowledgeable CA mapper about the situation there. As a California mapper and mapping geek: Fortuna calls itself a city at http://friendlyfortuna.com/ , no other level of CA government will contradict that. whereas if the Town of Sand Lake, NY (where i live) decided to call itself the City of Sand Lake, there would be Consequences. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Merging a GNIS node with a TIGER way - for a town
Am 29/gen/2014 um 20:14 schrieb Sebastian Arcus s.ar...@open-t.co.uk: I assume a place doesn't need to have both a node and a way. Actually having both a node and a polygon is the best. If you delete either you'll loose information. cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
