[Tango-L] Colorado Tango Festival - registration discount expires 5/24/17
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of Tango, Colorado Tango Festival is almost here (May 23 - 29, 2017) and we are very excited because it will be an amazing event with Pablo Pugliese and Noel Strazza and Diego di Falco & Carolina Zokalski. There is a 15% registration discount happening now that will expire on 5/24/17. This special flash promotion is for dancers that wish to pick individual classes and study with one or both of these incredible master teachers. www.coloradotangofestival.com, use discount code BOWTRUCKLE This discount applies to the milonga pass, but not to the individual ticket for the Cheeseman Park milonga that you also may purchase on our website. This ticket needs to be purchased in advance either from our website or directly from Tango Colorado because state regulations do not allow ticket purchases on site and you will need to present either a ticket or an email confirmation in order to attend. Pablo Pugliese & Noel Strazza will teach both beginner and intermediate/advanced classes for Tango Colorado on Tuesday, May 23, 2017 and they will dance a demo around 9:15PM for the attendees of the TC practica. Diego and Carolina will teach both beginner and intermediate/advanced class on Friday, May 26, 2017 at the Mercury Café. Diego and Carolina will dance a performance on Friday at the Mercury Milonga and Pablo and Noel will dance on Saturday at the Denver Turnverein. Here is a link to our festival movie promotion. We hope it makes you smile. https://www.facebook.com/522479441290293/videos/607722302766006/ All of Pablo and Noel's private lessons have been booked, but we can add you to the wait list in case someone cancels. There are no private lessons available for Diego and Carolina because they will arrive on Friday. Please let me know if you have any questions I may answer. It will be a wonderful festival! Thank you for your enormous and enthusiastic support, dancers. We couldn't have done it without it. Warmest regards, Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Colorado Tango Festival (Denver), Memorial Day, May 23-29, 2017.
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of Tango, Only two days are remaining for the special discounted registration to celebrate our festival. It will expire on Sunday, April 16, 2017. This special promotion is designed for dancers that would like to take individual classes instead of an entire weekend with one set of teachers, and may also get a milonga pass with this promotion. If you would like to take the entire weekend with Pablo Pugliese and Noel Strazza, or with Diego di Falco and Carolina Zokalski, please register after April 16, 2017, but do get your milonga pass now so that you get most savings. The registration page is: https://www.coloradotangofestival.com/classes-with-pablo-noel/ The registration has two parts. There is a general registration form that lets us know a little bit about you and then there a payment that automatically submits to us your selection of classes. Please use code NIFFLER at checkout to receive your discount. Pablo Pugliese, Noel Strazza, Diego di Falco and Carolina Zokalski will be teaching private lessons on Wednesday (5/24), Thursday (5/25) and Friday (5/26). Each master teacher will have his/her own private lesson schedule, or you may request lessons with Pablo and Noel teaching together and with Diego and Carolina. The available private lesson hours are disappearing quickly because many dancers will be coming to Denver, several days before the Memorial Day weekend and they have been booking private lessons when making their travel plans. Please send us a request as soon as possible and we will be in contact with you. The link to request your private lesson (s) and your preferred times and days is: https://www.coloradotangofestival.com/private-lessons/ Please send me an email if you would like more information. We hope to see you at our wonderful festival in our beautiful city! My warmest regards to every one of you, Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] DJ is needed
Hello, everyone, We need a great DJ for one of our festival milongas at the Colorado Tango Festival on Memoria Day weekend (May 26-28th). This is a traditional festival. Please contact me directly if you are interested. Thank you very much! My warmest regards, Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Colorado Tango Festival (Mar 23-29, 2017) REGISTRATION Thunderbird Offer!
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of Tango, >From our hearts to yours, with gratitude and deep appreciation of every one of you that is reading this message, we want to let you know that the registration for the Colorado Tango Memorial Day Festival in Denver (May 23-29, 2017) is open with a THUNDERBIRD special - $65 milonga pass (all 6 minlongas), $150 entire weekend with one set of teachers, $70 Saturday with one set of teachers, and $80 Sunday with one set of teachers! This incredible offer is intended to celebrate the opening of our new Festival in Denver, Colorado. It is valid until midnight (CST) March 17, 2017. Please take a look at the accommodations and resources, which we are adding every day. You may also request private lessons from the website. Thank you, friends, for your support! It will be an incredible festival! https://www.coloradotangofestival.com/ My warmest regards to every one of you, Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Colorado Tango Festival - Memorial Day - May 23-29, 2017
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of Tango, Memorial Day Colorado Tango Festival is alive and well! (and new!) Please spread the word, friends, so that dancers don't think accidentally that it was cancelled. Colorado Tango Festival is NOT former Denver Memorial Day Festival. Our legendary master teachers are Pablo Pugliese & Noel Strazza and Diego di Falco & Carolina Zokalski. There will be more than 20 hours of dancing in the milongas. The registration will open very soon with the Early Bird Milonga pass that will be irresistible and a full weekend of classes that will make even the most hardcore tango fanatic dinosaurs drool. :-) I am not kidding. We believe that many dancers have invested so much time and money, and pure love of tango and their tango friends, over the last two decades coming to the Memorial Day Tango Festivals in Denver that they deserve a fantastic festival. The master teachers of our festival are legends from long ago and their presence sets the tone of deep respect of tango, its people (you) and its culture. www.coloradotangofestival.com Instead of going home crying that tango is not the same, we decided to create something fabulous. We hope that you join us and have marvelous time. It will be wonderful to see old friends and meet new ones. Our FB page: https://www.facebook.com/Colorado-Tango-Festival-522479441290293/?pnref=lhc Dancers Connect FB group for festival attendees: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1299032733450057/ Thank you! Warmest regards, Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] TEST
Mary and others, We have a very interesting group on FB - Tango Dinosaurs, Unite! Many old-timers from pre-2001 are there. Please join us! https://www.facebook.com/groups/618027328229381/ Nina -Original Message- From: tango-l-boun...@mit.edu [mailto:tango-l-boun...@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Mary Menz Sent: Thursday, March 6, 2014 9:07 AM To: jan bares; Tango-L@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] TEST Yes, I miss it. I think it has been replaced by Facebook, yet Facebook does not offer the discussion opportunities that Tango-L does. On Mar 5, 2014, at 8:48 PM, jan bares jb34...@att.net wrote: Is this list still operational? Where are the posts? J. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Mary Menz ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango in Spain?
Dear Dancers, Would anyone be able to recommend where to dance in Madrid in November? Thank you! Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] urgent! virus alert
Ladies and Gentlemen of Tango, If you have received a private email from me in the past couple of days that did not arrive through this list, but looks like it came directly from me, delete it immediately. It is a virus. The tech people removed this virus from my computer, but said that it was severe. The tech people have virus definitions and descriptions. They said that this one takes attachments from different computers and attaches them to whatever emails it can find and randomly sends them around the world to other people's email addresses. It is supposed to compromise any confidential attachments that you may have in your emails, such as contracts, bank attachments, personal identifying information on any document, etc. People might receive an e-mail that looks like it came from you with a document, with a virus attached, from a person that you don't even know. It is particularly important for persons that send via e-mail semi-confidential information, such as invoices with account information and addresses, etc. This is new. It has emerged in the past couple of days. If your anti-virus protection has been updated in the past day or so, or updates itself several times a day automatically, then it should be able to catch it. If you are using Win 8, the only program that would catch it is the Defender. Norton and others are still in the testing phases of their upgrades for Win 8 and the current versions are not compatible with it. The tech people said to tell both PC and Mac users to delete anything that looks like it has arrived from me in the past two days. Basically, please be extremely vigilant, even if you are a Mac user, and please tighten your computer security. This is a new virus. I am really sorry about this. Thank you! Kindest regards, Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] a beautiful video
Dear Dancers, This is too beautiful not to share. The heart of the bandoneon never dies. Enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs1dsME9C5o Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] the legends
Dancers, This video is a little treasure. Some of you will remember this time. Well, maybe the end of this epoch. Enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7HmCGjYRYE Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango Bar DVD?
Dancers, Does anyone know if the movie Tango Bar (with Raul Julia) was ever released in DVD? There are video clips on the youtube, but I have been unsuccessful finding the entire film. Thank you! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQb7JWpEVRo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQb7JWpEVRolist=PLCC5360EA7FEADAD1 list=PLCC5360EA7FEADAD1 Kindest regards, Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango Dinosaurs, Unite!
Dancers, I have been hanging with the youtube, thinking about the current state of tango, missing Club Almagro and the dancers that I knew that are no longer here. I see new people coming to tango all the time. Many are from the US, and many are from other cultures. And many know nothing about tango! Nothing about its history, its codes, its meaning or its people! And I become very depressed when I encounter this state of tango being reduced to only movement … So I decided to offer some action… Because I am extremely fond of Facebook, I have created a page that is called “Tango Dinosaurs, Unite!” Tango Dinosaurs know who were Portlea, Virulaso, Finito, Todaro! You have seen Gavito dance and maybe even some of his shows in the late 1980s and early 1990’s. And you have seen and experienced much more. You have been hanging out in Buenos Aires since the 1980s or 1990s. Every year you swear that you will never go back, and you never keep that promise. I am looking for you! We need to know about each other. Please join the group, post videos, pictures, or anything else that is a part of your dance genesis from that special era. And I will feel most privileged to be among you. https://www.facebook.com/groups/618027328229381/edit/ My warmest regards, Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Tango Bar has been found.
Dancers, Tango Bar has been found on Youtube. The full version is available at http://youtu.be/a0DvITMs2wE. Thank you, Helaine Treitman! Thank you, everyone, who has replied! Kindest regards, Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Esther Pugliese is very ill - urgent help is needed.
Dear Dancers, Please forgive my clumsy writing. I wanted to get this message out as quickly as possible. I feel devastated and so I don't have many words. I do not need to tell most of you about the Pugliese family - Mingo Esther, and their son Pablo. In 1995, when Pablo was 15 years old, he came to the United States for the first time with his mother Esther to teach and perform. He came with her because his father was unable to travel at that time. After that, they had taught and perfomed many places in the world. Many of you in the United States know them from the days of the Stanford Tango Week. Pablo Esther (when Pablo was 11 years old): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktdMg_Mzs0w Mingo Esther recently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoXe4bmeUEIfeature=related The world of tango owes these people in a big way. Tango would not have become as we know it without them. The list of dancers they had taught include great artists Pablo Veron, Fabian Salas and, of course, Pablo Pugliese, and many, many others. This is a legendary family of tango dancers. And now they urgently need our help. Esther Pugliese is very ill. I am including Pablo's letter to the world of tango. Please help in any way you can, even the smallest possible. Please send this information to your friends and contacts in the world of tango. Pablo is handling everything by himself. His father is heart-broken and his sisters are in Buenos Aires, so Pablo is taking care of his mother and this situation alone, with the help of friends. Here is the letter from Pablo (http://www.tangopal.com/cita.esther): Dear Tango Community, Colleagues and Friends, I am reaching out to you because my family is going through an extremely difficult moment. My parents Esther and Mingo Pugliese, have been leaving in Italy (Pescara) for the last 5 years. On July 8th my mother was operated of a brain tumor and post operatory complications left her in a vegetative state. At the moment she is in intensive care at a hospital in Popoli. We are organizing a fund raising campaign all over the tango communities in the world. The only way of bringing her back to Argentina is with an ambulance plane and this is our goal. Being able to bring her back to a hospital in Buenos Aires will also allow my 75 year old father to come back to an environment that can contain him in this hard situation. I am asking you, to spread the word and to participate in this campaign in any way that is possible for you. There is no little contribution at this moment, anything that we can do together will mean a lot. For those of you that had the chance to meet Esther or learn from her, she lives in every tango step that you or your tango teacher takes. For those of you that love Argentine Tango and know what she and my family did for this dance in the world, I ask you from the bottom of my heart to help. My family and I will be infinitely grateful. My sister Marisa Pugliese and Gachy Fernandez are in charge of coordinating the effort, you can contact them directly at: ml...@hotmail.com and gach...@hotmail.com To contribute direclty on line we had created a simbolic product that you can purchase at Tangopal website, please visit: www.tangopal.com/catalog/129 You will find there all the explanations on how to proceed. You can also deposit money in Buenos Aires at: (will be available soon). We please ask you to spread the word with all your contacts and in case you wish to organize or participate in an event in behalf of the cause please contact : For events in Argentina: gach...@hotmail.com In the rest of the world: pablopuglie...@gmail.com Sincerely, Pablo Pugliese Thank you, friends. My warmest regards, Nina n...@earthnet.net www.NinaTango.com 720-434-4342 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Cheryl Burke Forever Tango interviews
A nightmare. Tango is always sold, just like yoga has been, just like other profound disciplines of art and spirituality. Tango is always at a point of it's lowest common denominator (Daniel Trenner said that a long time ago in relationship to on what level a couple dances). Tango is exotic to all who don't understnad it. It is sacred to all who do. - Original Message - From: Steve Littler s...@stevelittler.com To: tango-l@mit.edu Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Cheryl Burke Forever Tango interviews At least she admits that before she trained with the Forever Tango cast for three months, that she really knew nothing about the dance. That should pique interest in those who liked her DWTS Tango performances - especially with Gilles Marini. El Stevito de Gainesville ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip
Hi, all, What makes tango tango is many voices in counterpoint, meaning that each voice has its own rhythm, but all are linked harmonically. What also makes tango so recognizable is the synchopated phrasing, where even the singer is speaking in synchopation. Other dance forms follow a single rhythm (both rumba an d cha-cha) without synchopation, which may be present with the instruments, depending on the arrangement, but which is not required to be danced. I hope that this explanation adds to clarification and not to more confusion. :) Warmest regards, Nina - Original Message - From: Michael tangoman...@cavtel.net To: Nina Pesochinsky n...@earthnet.net; Tango-L Tango-L@mit.edu Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 10:26 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip Sounds too fast for Rumba. Sounds more like Cha cha. Michael I danced Argentine Tango --with the Argentines - Original Message - From: Nina Pesochinsky n...@earthnet.net Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip Actually, this is not a tango rhythmically, but a rumba. :) Common mistake... Rumba rhythm can be played to hint tango, but it is still a rumba. - Original Message - From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com Subject: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip This came as a nice surprise. Some tango in the new Burlesque movie with Cher. Check it out. http://www.daemonsmovies.com/2010/11/13/burlesque-movie-clip-with-cher/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip
Actually, this is not a tango rhythmically, but a rumba. :) Common mistake... Rumba rhythm can be played to hint tango, but it is still a rumba. - Original Message - From: Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patan...@yahoo.com To: Tango-L Tango-L@mit.edu Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 9:03 AM Subject: [Tango-L] Burlesque clip This came as a nice surprise. Some tango in the new Burlesque movie with Cher. Check it out. http://www.daemonsmovies.com/2010/11/13/burlesque-movie-clip-with-cher/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops
Amaury is right. It is sad. Tango is very simple. It is nothing more than music, poetry and the embrace of two people. But many people never look long enough into these simple things to see the beauty that they offer. They don't see that no other invention is needed. Best, Nina - Original Message - From: Amaury de Siqueira amauryc...@yahoo.com To: Tango-L@mit.edu Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 8:13 AM Subject: [Tango-L] commentary on advertisement, classes and workshops The 'Walmartization' of Tango MEGA WORKSHOPS jam packed with teachers in glitzy locations around the world are a common sight today. How far from the bohemian atmosphere of local dancing bars these events have become. Siting in a circle sipping mate while enjoying a friendly talk with teachers and dancers are simply not possible in these MEGA events. Similar consumerism driven actions have also existed among teachers. Some have created imaginary divisive lines across styles others have claim invention of a complete new form of true AT. How sad all this seems to be... I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine
Hello, everyone. Interesting discussion. Is tango sensual? It can be, but does not have to. Is it passionate? It can be, but does not have to, and does not need to be. It is difficult at times to participate in something sensual or passionate on cue. I am convinced that this discussion and many others have been influenced by an absence of at least two factors. First, it is important to understand that throughout the century of development of tango music and dance, women were valued much more than they are now. Sorry ladies, but women are now dime a dozen and all are hungry to dance. Those who know tango well as a dance, know that men created the movements to please the women. The dance was created because of the women and for them and in no authentic movement of tango, salon, milonguero, fantasia, stage, etc., is the woman and her movement is secondary. This factor is lost in the current tango experience of most. The quantity of dancing women has devalued their presence for the men. As a consequence, the social culture of the dance has sufferred. Neither men nor women actually know experientially the emotional content of the dance at a time where women were not so available. The second important factor to consider is not just that there were many European influences, but that tango actually belongs to the immigrant culture (of Argentina), which is much different than the pure influences of other, well-defined cultures. Immigrants are different people, regardless where they came from. They embrace and reject cultural values and rules according to different sets of perceptions. Immigrant cultures remain illusive to those who do not belong to them. Immigrants are a different kind of people, regardless from what country they came from. They are different from those who remain in those countries. I don't know if it is the psychological makeup, the personality or the emotional content that makes immigrants different, but they are very different. We will never know what the immigrant culture of the time was in Argentina and we will never know what exactly were the perceptions. But what is very clear in tango music and dance is that the immigrant culture allowed people tremendous creativity that may not have been nurtured by any one defined culture. It is that creativity, that harmonious blend of many influences that we feel now, dancing again and again to the same recordings a thousand times. These things cannot be taken apart. The best that we can do is honor the elements by acknowledging their influence and that is all. All the best, Nina From: bettina maria fahlbusch bettinamar...@gmail.com Date: Wed, 05 Aug 2009 18:25:39 -0300 To: Sergio Vandekier sergiovandekier...@hotmail.com, Tango-L Tango-L@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Tango is Argentine What I do think is important - VERY important - is to acknowledge the 50% female element. What makes tango so sensual? What makes it passionate? Certainly not the gauchos and compadritos that initially danced together. To say that those women just danced with their clients is an understatement I would say that certainly makes up 50% of the elements that developed in Tango. Sorry about saying string I simply mixed up the word as a foreigner, certainly it is not a string element, but I do insist those sounds originated in Germany, not in Argentina . . . :-) What is interesting today, as a foreigner, living in Argentina, is the ongoing conversation ain Argentineans referrig back to the fact of a massive European heritage that makes them different from the rest of Southamerica. Like the fact Buenos Aires likes to refer to itself to the paris from the South which I think in reality is a far cry away from the real Paris. So if there is pride fr sure to be had about such beautiful vast land as Argentina, then really own that what is truly Argentinean and not European. Finally, the Tango only became accepted in Argentina, once it scored success and reputation in the upper class Salons in Berlin, Paris and London . .. shown by the rich boys who again learned it in the Bordellos WITH the European women . . . so it is not all and only that Argentine, is it? Sergio: The compadritos were Argentines, born on Argentine soil. The women in the bordellos where French, Polish, Argentine, etc, but they did not create the tango. They danced with their clients. Argentina is a melting pot, their ancestors arrived from all over the world but their children were born on Argentine soil and nurtured by a distinct and strong Argentine Culture, which is different from any other. Argentines do not miss any identity, they are distinct and proud of who they are. ___ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Julio Corina dancing milonga
Hello, dancers. Here is a video of an incredible milonga danced by Julio Balmaceda and Corina de la Rosa in 2008. Enjoy! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GgiufIenm0feature=related Nina You may find Nina at www.tangoledanza.com or on www.facebook.com. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Shocked
This discussion reminds me of dancing with milongueros in 1997-1998, I do not recall even one time when a man had corrected me at a milonga, and I had danced only aout 2-3 years then and was a rank beginner. What they did instead was magic - they lead a step again and again, until I got it and learned what I needed to do. There was grace and infinite value in that because they gave me knowledge of the dance without using any words. And they did not break the magic of the moment. To me, there is some distasteful banality to all words, in any language that I understand. Even poetry can't compare with music and dance. Only languages that I do not understand have some music. Maybe the question that each person should ask, when an idea pops into his/her head to correct someone during a dance, is whether he/she wants to be right or to be happy. Do we value perfection over a feeling? In all human interactions, and in tango in this case, it might be useful to do a quick cost/benefit analysis in any situation. Impulsivity carries a very high cost. All the best, Nina At 07:59 AM 2/23/2009, Sergey Kazachenko wrote: It depends on the setting and context. If we are at a practica, and I know the partner is less skilled, I might ask Do you want to practice or just dance? If she wants to learn, we move to the center and practice. If just dance, we will do that, and if she does something wrong, I better have plan B ready! Of course, this is totally inappropriate in a milonga, where just dance is the only option. Sergey May you be forever touched by His Noodly Appendage... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster ) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nomenclature: Clarification of terms, Part 2
This might work, as long as no one leaves any body parts behind.:) Nina Quoting Brian Dunn br...@danceoftheheart.com: Dear list, Here's another terms-clarification attempt, submitted for your approval ;): Clarification: LEAD WITH xxx (arms/frame/chest/other part of leader's anatomy) In our experience, by choosing to use the phrase lead with (xxx) in a teaching context, we have already made some assumptions, and reinforced a particular perspective on tango events, which has noticeable consequences for our connection to our partner, and for our tango experience in general. Because of this, it can be interesting and useful to re-examine those assumptions and consequences, and reconsider our use of the phrase. If we consider the idea What does the leader lead with?, we see we're talking about the leader DOING something with part of HIS body. By framing the problem as what does the leader DO to lead?, the answer would seem to be that the leader engages in a movement or series of movements using various leader body part(s). Of course, thinking of it this way can work, and many people have trained themselves to think of the problem of leading this way. But like the previous clarification of lead, I'd say this perspective is sufficient but not necessary for many tango ideas, and in many other cases, actually creates unnecessary obstacles in the way of the tango experience by diminishing the follower's sensation of the connection with her leader. One side-effect of this perspective is that the leader's attention is REMOVED from the follower's body and focused on the leader's body while this movement or movements of the leader's leading code is being executed. Once this attention-removal is practiced often enough, it becomes a habit of mind to remove attention from the follower's body into the leader's body in order to initiate ANYTHING in the lead/follow tango conversation. Followers tend to experience this attention-removal as a lessening of the sensation of tango connection. While this can be overcome by unlearning this habit of mind, many leaders never get that far in their tango careers. We found it is possible to bypass many problems in learning tango communication by reframing many tango communication situations in terms of the follower's body exclusively. We do this for many tango ideas by focusing on having the leader keep his/her attention relentlessly fixed on what the follower's body should do, rather than taking an attention detour back into the leader's body at all. The leader's body then actually follows along without much focused attention, as long as the follower's body is taken care of. As peculiar as this may sound, it works very well in practice. Beginners prove to each other in the first class that they are all possessed of bodies that are exquisitely sensitive perceiving devices, able to send and receive mysterious information flows in ways difficult to explain, but easy to experience. Based on our results, by training these attention habits into beginning leaders early on, the lead/follow communication is greatly improved compared to the what does the leader do or what does the leader lead with perspective. All the best, Brian Dunn Dance of the Heart 775 Pleasant Street Boulder, CO 80302 USA 303-938-0716 www.danceoftheheart.com Building a Better World, One Tango at a Time ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango Pedantics
If you really want to know about Petroleo and his contribution to tango, talk to Mingo Pugliese the next time you are in BsAs. He and Esther have carried his legacy through the decades. (444 Cochabamba was a legendary place for many years, where Mingo had his amazing practica). The cross for the woman and the turns as we know them 9with sacadas and entradas) owe much to Petroleo for their existence. Vince, why don't you go and study the Tango-L archives? You might really enjoy the posts and get many answers to frequently asked questions.:) Best, Nina At 06:21 PM 12/2/2008, Joe Grohens wrote: Vince said: So Petroleo improved tango and thus it evolved. About when did this all happen? That's what some people say, and apparently what Petroleo himself thought. I take it with a grain of salt, but Petroleo is definitely someone worth researching. See: - http://www.todotango.com/english/creadores/petroleo.asp - http://www.planet-tango.com/elfiru/petroleo.htm He danced from 1928-1988. I always imagined that this innovation period of Petroleo was in the 1940s, but I don't know really know the dates. I remember an interview with Carlos Copello (which I can't find at the moment) where talks about his early days dancing before he became a performer (so I guess, early 1980s). Copello says he worked in a produce warehouse during the day. At night he would be at a practica, where Petroleo was inventing all kinds of crazy things. He would come from there to work. (If anyone recognizes this interview and can send me the link I will be grateful.) Anyway... so perhaps Petroleo was innovating into the 1980s. I don't know. In one of the Trenner tour tapes (1992?) he interviewed Lampazo, who said that (paraphrasing) everything we dance today was started by Petroleo. The interview was at Cochabamba 444, so perhaps it is a regional tango they are talking about. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes
So maybe a good cortina for some of the milongas outside of BsAs could be a great song by the Doors People are Strange:) People are strange When you're a stranger, Faces look ugly when you're alone. Women are wicked when you're unwanted, streets are unhaven when you're down. When faces come out of the rain When you strange No one remembers your name When you strange. Quoting Mario [EMAIL PROTECTED]: They don't come any 'stranger' than you, Jack. One thing we agree on is that Tango does seem to attract some very, very strange people. Certainly far more than the law of averages would suggest. I have no idea why. - Strange Jack ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Milonga Codes and weird anecdotes/blowing my nose
True enough, Randy. Sometimes it is a true grace when some people do not want to dance with you or me or others. Just because someone happens to dance tango does not mean that it is their best social talent. One of the dancers in our dance company said that when she was training in ballet, one of her teachers told some girls that they should learn to cook and get a husband, because they will never dance.:) It is important to recognize people's talents. Sometimes it is conversation and not tango. Sometimes it is neither tango nor conversation, but playing chess. Sometimes if you have really good conversations with someone, it might be best not to dance with them because it might ruin the conversation. I think that it is very useful for all tango dancers to learn something else to do other than dance that they can do together. Singing is useful because with some people in the milongas you can sing along and don't need to dance. Drinking champaign to tango music is another option. Afterwards, it feels as if you had danced together:) My point is that tango, and being in the milongas, is much more than just dancing. The social universe of tango is immense. In BsAs, there are people whom I have known for many years in the milongas, with whom I always chat and catch up, and with whom I have never danced and probably will never dance. And yet, these tango friends are no less valuable than the people we dance with. I also have met lovely people, whose company I had enjoyed immensely, with whom I finally danced. Afterwards, I wish I didn't. Dancing was bleak by comparison with a sparkling conversations that we have had. So when people don't want to dance with you, maybe it is an opportunity to discover something else that is interesting about them. In BsAs, this is easy because people hang out in the milongas for hours. In the US, people are anxious to either dance or go home, and hanging out together does not seem to be a priority. Not dancing can be both a tragedy and a blessing. You have to choose which it is moment by moment:) All the best, Nina Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: A wise friend once said 'why would you want to dance with someone who doesn't want to dance with you?' We are better off concentrating on those who do want to dance with us. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Clif, Nausea is a good thing. It tells you that there might be something to look at inside yourself that might need your attention. Perhaps the envy of the divine?:) I always enjoy seeing insecure dancers show up on this list. They pat themselves on the back, praise their own accomplishments and can't accept their own inferiority. Or maybe they do accept it and know that there is nothing, absolutely nothing they can do about it. It is always very funny to observe foreigners claim We are as good as Argentines, or even better!. At what? Moves? Yes, of course! Feeling? No. Evidence? Either any milonga outside of the BsAs or any milonga in BsAs that many foreigners attend is the evidence. The quality of these milongas is distinctly different from milongas where only Argentines are present, without exceptions. The quality of dance is difference also. Argentines, as arrogant as they are nationally, are able to accept their inferiorities. I have heard dancers in BsAs say that they will never be as good as dancing swing as the Americans are. BTW, accepting that your tango is inferior to Argentine dancers' should not prevent you from enjoying it, wherever you are. :) Best, Nina At 12:07 AM 11/7/2008, Clif Davis wrote: I get so fed up with the elitist BS that comes from this list sometimes I become nauseated. Foreigners can't dance tango frogs can't swim. Total rubbish. Some the demi-gods of tango on this list need to look at the origins of the dance and remember that like swing, and most dances, was a bar dance meant for making a connection between men and women. Just like all dances. It's not some classic dance style brought down from the heavens. It is a bar dance danced for pleasure by the masses in bars. The gods also need to remember that each instructor created his own style. None of them are perfect and they wanted as many people to dance their style as possible. Not just the people in some far away place. Tango is not a religion and BsAs is not Mecca. It is a city with lots of bars where people dance tango. People from all over the world. Some dance with grace and some dance like frogs, but they all enjoy themselves. Enjoy your tango where ever you are in the world. Your tango is as good as anyone in Argentina. Clif, from China. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Cliff, you are right! Best, Nina At 08:24 AM 11/7/2008, Clif Davis wrote: Nina, it is nice to see that your shrink license is working well from afar. Your ability to judge a persons thoughts and feelings from a few lines is amazing. Not to mention your massive ego that just can't stand being looked at. I am sure you are a fine dancer. Maybe even a great dancer. But is it because of the blood in your veins or the time you put on the floor? Remember, Argentine blood is messed up as American blood. It isn't pure, so which is the influencing part. Is it German? Is it from the plains? Is it from the blacks and other slaves that were brought in? Which is the true Argentine blood that makes you so special? I mean if you are saying that only Argentines can truly dance tango, then let's have some science to back it up. Or is it really just your personal bias and massive ego that is putting everyone else down. Look in the mirror Nina, post some video if you haven't already, let's see your true Argentine magic. And which of the 9 or 10 true tangos is your specialty. Have you created your own? Oh wait, you are a follower, doesn't that mean you are only as good as the person leading you? Or, are you really special and back lead? Just curious, I mean, since YOU know more than anyone about the abilities of dancers and their ability, please dear god Nina, bestow upon us your wisdom and oh by the way, when is your book coming out? Surely someone as sage as you has a book in the offing. Me, I am just a silly American living in China and enjoying it. You know, they even think I can dance. They even want to dance with me, which I am sure a snob like would never want to do. I may not be perfect enough. Have a great day. I hope you don't block out the sun. Clif -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nina Pesochinsky Sent: Friday, November 07, 2008 10:39 PM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Clif, Nausea is a good thing. It tells you that there might be something to look at inside yourself that might need your attention. Perhaps the envy of the divine?:) I always enjoy seeing insecure dancers show up on this list. They pat themselves on the back, praise their own accomplishments and can't accept their own inferiority. Or maybe they do accept it and know that there is nothing, absolutely nothing they can do about it. It is always very funny to observe foreigners claim We are as good as Argentines, or even better!. At what? Moves? Yes, of course! Feeling? No. Evidence? Either any milonga outside of the BsAs or any milonga in BsAs that many foreigners attend is the evidence. The quality of these milongas is distinctly different from milongas where only Argentines are present, without exceptions. The quality of dance is difference also. Argentines, as arrogant as they are nationally, are able to accept their inferiorities. I have heard dancers in BsAs say that they will never be as good as dancing swing as the Americans are. BTW, accepting that your tango is inferior to Argentine dancers' should not prevent you from enjoying it, wherever you are. :) Best, Nina At 12:07 AM 11/7/2008, Clif Davis wrote: I get so fed up with the elitist BS that comes from this list sometimes I become nauseated. Foreigners can't dance tango frogs can't swim. Total rubbish. Some the demi-gods of tango on this list need to look at the origins of the dance and remember that like swing, and most dances, was a bar dance meant for making a connection between men and women. Just like all dances. It's not some classic dance style brought down from the heavens. It is a bar dance danced for pleasure by the masses in bars. The gods also need to remember that each instructor created his own style. None of them are perfect and they wanted as many people to dance their style as possible. Not just the people in some far away place. Tango is not a religion and BsAs is not Mecca. It is a city with lots of bars where people dance tango. People from all over the world. Some dance with grace and some dance like frogs, but they all enjoy themselves. Enjoy your tango where ever you are in the world. Your tango is as good as anyone in Argentina. Clif, from China. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Bs As dancers are not so hot ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
It doesn't really matter what people are teaching. It is much more important what people are learning. If the teacher is teaching really good stuff, but the people are trapped in their bodies and can't make it move (meaning they are not controlling their bodies but their bodies are controlling them), nothing will help other than some coordination training away from tango. Soccer might be good. What makes someone a good dancer? The right attitude! Foreigners don't have it. (Sorry, folks...) Yup, black and white generalization. Exceptions are not important for this discussion.The simplre reason that the foreigners don't have the right attitude (in their own land or in BsAs) is that they have different expectations of their tango experience than the Argentines do. That's why many Argentine dancers that don't have as a refined technique as some foregners do, are much better dancers. Fourteen years ago, tango nuevo was called nuevo. So what could be another alternative name for tango nuevo that is not nuevo anymore? When does the term nuevo expire? It is not quite old yet, or antique, just a little worn :) Maybe now, after so many years, it should be called tango nuevo polvoriento. That would free up the term tango nuevo for something really new. Nina At 10:23 PM 11/6/2008, marquerito tjanos wrote: interesting observation. i just want to add my 10cents worth. lots of young people in BsAs are drawn to tango these days. as larry has observed, though some of them are drawn to tango nuevo music, a lot of them are tangoing to the golden oldies. from my observation in Practica X and La Viruta, which have a huge number (more than 90% i would say) of young people, they enjoy the golden age tango very much. the ways they dance their tango are very varied too. some open embrace, some close embrace, some milonguero style. but if you look at the large successful schools, e.g. Academia at El Beso, Escuela at Galeria Pacifico, most of the teachers are just teaching good solid tango, good technique, good postures etc. and aurora lubiz is a great teacher! M ÂFind your perfect match today at the new Yahoo!7 Dating. Get Started http://au.dating.yahoo.com/?cid=53151pid=1012 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social rejection
Trini, I think that the most efficient way to help people/students deal with dance, rejection, fear of failure/performance, etc. is to hand them a book The Four Agreements the moment they enter a beginner tango class for the first time. Give them four days to read it and then give them a short quiz. If they pass, let them into the class. One of the agreements is Take nothing personally. Haven't tried that yet, but it might work. :) Nina Quoting Trini y Sean (PATangoS) [EMAIL PROTECTED]: --- On Mon, 9/29/08, Nina Pesochinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The important thing to remember is that we do not always know what might trigger the other person. You're right, Nina, and although I appreciate your sensitivity toward others, I do not espouse taking responsibility for another's emotional response. In fact, what we might think of as possibly triggering pain for someone else, might do the exact opposite. There've been quite a few times, when I've had to be very direct with people, knew I had caused them pain, but also was thanked by them later for doing what I did. For some of my students, there's a process I think of as cutting the apron strings or pushing them out of the nest. I'm sure others have to do this, too. It's a phase for beginners who begin to demonstrate overdependence on their teachers or have difficulty separating professional responsibilities from personal friendships. Basically, it's having to turn them down if they ask me to dance at a milonga or to help them work on something at a practice (and there are others that they can work with instead). I know why they're asking - because it's easier for them to work/dance with me that with other people. But I also know that that is not always good for their tango development for me to always say yes. And certainly not good for me to feel smothered. What I've learned to do to make rejection easier is to simply avoid prolonged eye contact. So I'll look at someone initially and even engage in conversation, but my eyes will be directed mainly at the dance floor. Basically, I'll look as if I am pre-occupied studying others (which is usually true, anyway). So when a rejection comes, it doesn't come off as being against them but more about my having other things on my mind. The other side to this is to also let people know that they are going to make mistakes, that Rome wasn't built in a day, and that there's nothing wrong with being inexperienced. And if they don't build up their expectations unrealistically, then rejection isn't as painful as it would otherwise be. Trini de Pittsburgh ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] tango rejection
Cabeceo works even from 3 feet away. Even in the dark. The fewer words the better. What happened with people's manners?! Why is it that we all knew over a decade ago that if you turn someone down for a tanda in an obvious way, you do not dance that tanda?! I think that the manners went to hell because Daniel Trenner stopped travelling and teaching all over the United States. He taught the most proper codes of conduct, so that when foreigners came to dance in Buenos Aires, they would know how to behave appropriately. Nina At 01:03 PM 9/30/2008, Nussbaum, Martin wrote: I guess I am a luddite, i use the cabaceo whenever possible, hoping to spread this wonderful custom. Occasionally I will resort to verbal invite, and usually regret it. When a woman rejects my invite with a one word no or shake of her head, but within 5 seconds leaps up to dance with the latest argentine long-haired poor- postured neo- tango import on sale, I will ask her again as soon as the following two conditions occur: pigs fly, and hell freezes over. One of those is insufficient; if both of those conditions occur, I will gladly ask her again. Use the cabaceo. It works. ( If you can see it.) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Social rejection
Hello, everyone, I received a few private replies arguing that rejection in tango is OK, just like anything else in life. To set things straight - just because it exists, it does not make it acceptable or OK. Naomi Eisenberger, PhD, has done a lot of research in the area of social rejection. She used electroencephalogram (QEEG) scans to map the brain's response to rejection. Her research has shown that social rejection lights up the same parts of the brain as physical pain. He original work was her dissertation in 1996 and she has published extensively since then on this topic. If you have access to an academic online library, you should be able to access her publications fairly easily. Very elegant research. There is a reason why I am hooking into this subject for tango. There are ways to handle things without provoking the feelings of social rejection in people. There are also remedies to make things better should painful social interaction occur. We can't control what might trigger someone else, but we can avoid inflicting pain on others if we are aware of what, generally, might do that. Awareness is important. Best, Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social rejection
Hi, Tine and everyone, I can't prescribe ways of making rejection less painful in tango. I can only aspire to bring some awareness. It is important that each person decides for himself/herself how to use any information on this subject. Those who truly want to avoid causing unnecessary pain, will develop their own strategies and their own unique styles of communication. We can look at what hurts people in tango as dance rejection. It could be many things - not being asked, not being asked by people who used to ask, not being asked by specific people one wants to dance with, verbally and non-verbally saying no, avoiding to the point of a showing clear intention not to dance with a person, etc. The important thing to remember is that we do not always know what might trigger the other person. In regard to rejection in tango, I like looking at the proper boundaries of each situation. There are things that we can control and things that we cannot. It is helpful to know that difference within the unique context of each situation. If one can say a polite and warm hello instead of dancing and keep moving, it is one thing. If one is cornered into a verbal exchange and has to say no, that is a completely different situation. The other thing to look at is values. I know several women that continue to dance with men they hate dancing with. When asked why they do so, the answer is the same from all of them - they don't want to hurt anyone's feelings. To these women, the pain of hurting someone's feelings is greater than the pain of dancing with them. This is important to know. It is about what each person values. This touches on the very core of who the person is. I think that how good a person is with himself/herself also determines how graceful and less painful their rejection can be. I like to make a distinction between who the people are vs. their behavior/conduct. In tango, as in all relationships (I hate this word), it is much better to reject a person's dancing, but not the person. This requires charm. Rejection is unavoidable. What makes a difference is how it is delivered. If you remember that each grown up person is just a kid in a big body, you will know how to make your choices in a kinder way. My very best regards, Nina At 09:01 AM 9/29/2008, you wrote: Hi Nina, Could you elaborate to the list on the ways to make rejection less painful in tango? Thank you Tine On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 8:43 AM, Nina Pesochinsky mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello, everyone, I received a few private replies arguing that rejection in tango is OK, just like anything else in life. To set things straight - just because it exists, it does not make it acceptable or OK. Naomi Eisenberger, PhD, has done a lot of research in the area of social rejection. She used electroencephalogram (QEEG) scans to map the brain's response to rejection. Her research has shown that social rejection lights up the same parts of the brain as physical pain. He original work was her dissertation in 1996 and she has published extensively since then on this topic. If you have access to an academic online library, you should be able to access her publications fairly easily. Very elegant research. There is a reason why I am hooking into this subject for tango. There are ways to handle things without provoking the feelings of social rejection in people. There are also remedies to make things better should painful social interaction occur. We can't control what might trigger someone else, but we can avoid inflicting pain on others if we are aware of what, generally, might do that. Awareness is important. Best, Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list mailto:Tango-L@mit.eduTango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] To Dance -- or Not to Dance: That is the Question
I have asked this question before - who do you dance with, folks? Do you dance with people or with their tango abilities? Personally, I dance with people. If I like the person, and his technique has suddenly deteriorated for some mysterious reason, such as a spell of some tango sorcerer in Siberia, I would certainly attempt to remove the spell. Tango technique is a fluid thing - it can be restored and reconstructed. In tango, as in all dance, some days are better than others. Some days, there is axis and other days it is on vacation some place. Some days, the body does what it is supposed to and other days it decides to do its own thing and no amount of arguing can change anything. Somehow we push through those moments and dance works out. But a person can be destroyed by rejection. Tango trauma is a serious thing. One of the biggest problems with assumptions in all aspects of life is attribution. We often attribute incorrectly. Michael said that the woman's tension was from dancing with men that don't have good technique. But maybe she had a stressful day instead. There is no linear cause and effect in human experience or behavior. Tango accepts people as they are, with all their feelings. In Buenos Aires, that is still the beauty of the experience - you are expected to dance your feelings, whatever they may be that day. There is freedom in that and integrity. All the best, Nina At 09:12 PM 9/28/2008, Michael wrote: Based on a lot of messages on this topic, about only dancing with good dancers and should a lead be refused, I've combined my answer into one message. 1) I understand what Ilene wrote. I remember meeting a woman at a practica. She was very stiff, tight and difficult to lead because her muscles were frozen from men who lead with their arms, pulling and pushing her off her balance. I told her to relax and she danced much better. We used to dance a lot. Then she went back to the men who caused her to dance poorly because of their tight frame. She absorbed her tension like a sponge absorbs water. After a while her dancing deteriorated and I stopped dancing with her. Everybody has to answer for themselves if dancing bad tango is better than no tango. There is no universal right answer. Everybody makes the decision for themselves. 2) Refusing a lead There are a few reasons a woman refuses a lead. When I danced in NY Sept 20 at Sandra Cameron, there were a few women I couldn't lead because they were pushing so hard outward on my left hand, they threw themselves off our alignment. All I can is drop her arm downward and keep it down no matter how hard she pushes. The other type is part of a dialogue. Virginia Kelly taught a great class at the NY Tango Festival (the one in the summer NOT the one coming up) called Interleading. The woman stopped the man dead in his tracks so she could do a figure. As long as I was relaxed and understood what was going on, I didn't freak out. Tango is a dialogue. When the woman talks, the man has to listen. Michael Resumed Spanish class for my trip to BA next year I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: Ilene Marder [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Lead an invitation that can be ignored or faught I once asked a very good, very well known dancer why he didn't dance with me anymore. he said... basically... look at who you are dancing with...some of them are not very good and they don't make you look very good. If I dance with you next, it makes me look bad... Jack Dylan wrote: It seems that Sean will not only not dance with women who are not good dancers but with women who agree to dance with men who are not good dancers. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] (over)explained tango
Thank you, Larry. This is a great explanation. Warm regards, Nina At 10:32 PM 9/25/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nina Pesochinsky wrote --- So what is the value of an over-explained tango? One or two people seemed to take this as a put-down of some sort. I thought it funny: a clever play on the words that David Thorn had just used, when he was talking about an over-turned ocho (one that turns more than 180 degrees) forced on him by a lady who stepped closer to him on the second half of the ocho than he was expecting. Or, reading her later response, I wondered if it was a question as well. As in What is the fuss all about? Why are you spending so many words on an evanescent experience? OK. I'll answer the question. As often happens, there are several forces working in the long detailed analyses of various subjects such as those you sometimes see on this list. Why (over)explain? For some people it's simply fun, a sort of game. For others, it's an attempt to help others on a subject they have mastered. Which often has the side benefit that the explanations force they themselves to re-think the subject, and to see it in a new (hopefully clearer!) light. For some it's the second part of that process, the clarifying of a subject to themselves, that is the reason for a discussion. And finally explaining can also be exhibitionism - look at me aren't I clever! In other venues I've seen or heard people argue that explaining psychological phenomena is either useless or destroys the phenomena being discussed. For instance, they urge you not to discuss love. Or enjoyment of a sunset. Or the almost (or actually) transcendent experience of a dance. What they don't understand is that left-brain analytical and right-brain intuitive thinking are not enemies, any more than our left arms and hands are enemies of our right arms and hands. They work together - or should. A person with a strong left arm/brain AND a strong right arm/brain is MUCH more effective than if they must fumble along using one side or the other. The best scientists and engineers are not only technically expert but also very creative. This often shows up in their hobbies, such as painting or playing or even composing music - and dancing. And the best artists are invariably experts in the technical side of their art. Painters, for instance, typically have exhaustively studied such subjects as perspective and shadows and the effects several colors in a scene will synergistically effect the experience of the viewer. They will spend hours trying out a new set of paintbrushes and paints, learning their idiosyncracies. They may endlessly paint the same scene over and over again with tiny variations, and spend much thought on why some variations succeed or fail. So it is with dance. There are stages or phases to becoming good, and to having those transcendent experiences. One is learning the very basics, such as how to place one's foot when stepping: heel, toe, and midsole, which leads when, how much force to use, how to move the body from station to station of a position. Which is both a physical and an intellectual process. These activities you do in classes and practicas. Then you revisit those basics, but this time in the midst of a dance, when the virtue of all that practice and analysis pays off - by letting your body and your subconscious handle the details, letting you forget the basics, while your consciousness floats upon and above those earthly concerns. And you simply DO. Larry de Los Angeles http://shapechangers.wordpress.com Click to find out what your future holds. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/fc/Ioyw6iieOol4Tm1VvpgUg7HuDWEgwls3semkJx6J7xgO2nAZylv7W6/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
Good question, Alexis! Over-explanation or discussion of any experience can only go so far. And at the end, it is still what it is, isn't it? Quoting Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nina Pesochinsky wrote: So what is the value of an over-explained tango? Ah - if we wander into the existential, what is the value of a mailing list discussing a dance? http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
My question was not a rhetorical one. What is the value? David's tango is what it is no matter what anyone thinks about it. He feels compelled to explain it over and over again. At the end, his tango is what it is and everyone else's as well. So what is the value of extensive explanations! Tango is a dance, and ,as such, is a transitory experience. So whatever ochos or movements that are being discussed, they no longer exist and probably cannot be repeated. So what am I missing here? What is the value of an explanation of movements that no longer exist and can't be repeated? If it is a technical issue, then it could be just worked out in class. But what is the value of the verbal explanation? Please let me know because I am not getting it. Nina Quoting Huck Kennedy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 10:42 AM, Nina Pesochinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nina Pesochinsky wrote: So what is the value of an over-explained tango? Ah--if we wander into the existential, what is the value of a mailing list discussing a dance? Good question, Alexis! Over-explanation or discussion of any experience can only go so far. And at the end, it is still what it is, isn't it? I agree with Nina that someone at a milonga insisting on sitting around at a table talking about the intricacies of tango rather than simply dancing would be both silly and somewhat of a buzz kill. But this isn't a milonga--it is a mailing list set up for the express purpose of talking about tango, and as such, I agree with Alexis that it seems strange to question people for merely indulging in the very premise of the mailing list. Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tergiversar = to distort, twist
Thank you so much for your encouragement about the delete key. It is a lovely feature and I have practiced using it over the years with such enthusiasm that I dislocated a finger. However, I was not complaining about the useless posts. Instead, I asked a question about something that people seem to value. I would like to know what is valuable in extreme analysis of transitory experiences. Quoting Trini y Sean (PATangoS) [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nina, I always enjoy your posts, but please remember that you're free to use your delete key. --- On Thu, 9/25/08, David Thorn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know how you know my regular partner's skill level. I mentioned in a prior post that I can lead with clarity(?), and she will follow precisely what I lead. If I don't open the door for her to choose to over rotate, she doesn't do it. If I haven't opened the door for her to choose the back sacada, she doesn't do it. And indeed, she often does suggest things for me to lead, which suggestion I may accept or not. But generally I do because I find that level of conversation to be a very fun part of the dance. The point of my post was to provide a simple example to Mario of a different form of interaction than the I talk and you listen one that is often presented. Forgive me, everyone, since this is my third (and last) post of the day, but I didn't want David to think I think ill of his partner for the rest of the day. If you go back and reread your posts, David, you will see that it is of the I talk and you listen variety - only she's the one doing most of the talking. However, your current example is exactly what I'm talking about as a good thing. In other words, you previously presented your partner in a bad light. Glad to hear that you are not a wuss. Also, it sounds to me that you do dance as Sergio prescribes. Trini de Pittsburgh P.S. to Alexis: The average intermediate woman prefer to work on their embellishments instead of their musicality. I will often hear intermediate men say that they've stopped working on steps to concentrate more on their musicality, but I don't hear women professing the same thing. Women ask me all the time to teach them some leg thing, but they don't ask me to help them work on their syncopas. The guys do, though. Instead, lots of women seem to think that musicality is mostly a man's responsibility and don't walk the talk when it comes music. The good dancers, of course, work on everything. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] 30 seconds of chit-chat an Argentine custom
When women are very young, they want men to talk to them. It is the only way they know how to connect. This is female. Girls are not only born that way, but also socialized. When women mature, some loose their attraction to talk because they have heard a lot and not much is new. They also have other ways of recognizing the meaning of various interactions and their importance. It is very interesting to see and hear adolescent boys talk about the girls they like - they are not eager to talk to them. Instead, they are happy to see them, even from a distance. They know that they need to talk to her, if they have any intentions of asking her out, but seeing the girl seems much more important. I am always amazed at how the boy-girl interaction repeats itself in a man-woman interaction in tango. Watching the people in the milongas internationally for years, I have observed that the moment the dance stops, the women's mouths begin to move. Some never stop. They sit down and don't stop talking. It is easy to chat when the dance experience is simply pleasant and inconsequential. The words don't happen when it is something else. But the chit-chat also can help people feel safe - from each other, from themselves. There is an old saying - Men love with their eyes, and women love with their ears. In my experience living in Argentina, the men of that culture know this little piece of wisdom. Best, Nina Sergio Vandekier wrote: It was said: What I've read about the chit chat in BsAs and it's origins, was that was the only chance for a young suitor to talk to the girl with whom he was dancing with, because it would not have been proper to sit next to her after the dancing; she was there with a chaperone. Remember the strong Catholic roots of South America and how difficult it is/was for a young man to get to knowa young, proper, woman, and to impress her. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Labor Day Festival: a complaint
Hello, everyone, Gender imbalance and other explanations do not justify bad behavior. What Nancy had described *is* bad behavior. It shows poor boundaries, impulsivity and agression - all in service of getting what people want. This is the stuff that people carry with themselves in their lives. This is how they have learned to get what they want. To avoid having people's stuff spill out in the milongas, there are rules of conduct. Argentines, just like everyone else, have their stuff. However, when they show up at the milongas, the rules provide the boundaries and guidelines for those individuals for whom their own boundaries are lacking. The codes of the milongas protect everyone from some people's bad behavior. The traditional codes are beautiful because they help people behave better than they might on their own. Best, Nina http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] What does it take?
Thank you, David. But... I only said what I want. I said nothing about sharing anything :) I offer nothing, share nothing, promise nothing. It could be a dark place of no return... an abyss of tango... Many have perished from wrong assumptions. Be careful. Nina At 12:08 AM 8/20/2008, David Hodgson wrote: Nina; This is beautiful and honest. I owe you a tanda,,, because. David PS: The same goes for me dancing with a woman. It is what they offer and share, also how they offer and share in the dance. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nina Pesochinsky Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:48 PM To: tango-l@mit.edu Subject: Re: [Tango-L] What does it take? And, gentlemen... Hear the music the way that only you uniquely can - on your cellular, or maybe molecular level. And if you need to have your heart (or anything else) broken for music to enter, then find a way to do that. It is well worth it. I can't speak for all women, but I can't (well, I can, but don't enjoy) dance with a man who only has either a head or a heart. I need both. Best, Greedy Nina At 05:44 PM 8/19/2008, Joe Grohens wrote: Jack Dylan wrote: Mario, Don't make the mistake of trying to model your dance on someone else. Ricardo Vidort and the other milongueros come from a bygone age. Yes, let's marvel at their dancing but, when a milonguero dies, his dance dies with him and that's the way it has to be. What you need to do is find your own dance. Take lessons, learn good technique, learn some figures, practice, dance a lot and, eventually, your own dance will come, And it'll be your dance and no one else's. Jack It is very true what Jack says - one needs to find one's own dance. In my experience, that process of finding your dance does involve seeing things you like in other dancers, and trying to do them yourself, and keeping the parts that fit your body's abilities, personality, and dance circumstances. I think imitation can be a valid first step towards acquiring your own style. I suppose it's possible to end up being merely an imitator, but that's only if imitation is where you stop your development. It is very hard to really imitate fully the style of another dancer. And copied stylistic traits always look like an inferior copy. Joe ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1620 - Release Date: 8/19/2008 6:04 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 270.6.5/1620 - Release Date: 8/19/2008 6:04 AM ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Melina's essay, rudeness in Tango, Tango-L postings
Shahrukh, You are being very kind, just as you have been over so many years. You have witnessed tremendous (and fun!) flame wars, oh, like 11 years ago or so :) And you have always been very gracious, taking care of things and the list. So a million thanks for that! In Argentina and all over the world, tango attracts hypersensitive people. The social aspects of tango often provoke people in ways they don't expect. Many become quite reactive, consciously or not. Personally, I do not mind flames. I like fire. It wipes out the old and makes new possible. I like it when people are passionate enough and fearless enough to send me flames, because I might bring on them the flames of a dragon and they know it. I respect that. But then... maybe kindness from me is better. I think that people become rude and reactive when they are triggered. Maybe they are very passionate about something. What I do resent is strong feelings hidden behind a thin veil of politeness or niceness. I prefer direct agression over passive agression. And so I conduct all flame wars, if ever, publically without keeping anything confidential. I must say, I have not been involved in any really good flame war since some members left the list. I kinda miss them.:) People who have had thick enough skin to survive in tango have learned that they do matter, and how they treat others matters. Anger (and, thus, flames) usually means hurt feelings. People are very sensitive in tango and about it. When we had those old wars, people actually were passionate about tango. They fought over it! They stood their ground, insulted each other, offended everyone around them, and then became the best of friends, while everyone who watched thought Go figure!. I am not advocating for the flame wars, but the early ones were fun. The later ones, the ones you are referring to, became nasty and not fun because there seemed to not be much substance. In your post, Shahrukh, there is a lot of thought. I know that this will keep reappearing because new people join the list. And as the guardian of the list, you probably will see it all over again many times. Warmest regards, Nina http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] What does it take?
And, gentlemen... Hear the music the way that only you uniquely can - on your cellular, or maybe molecular level. And if you need to have your heart (or anything else) broken for music to enter, then find a way to do that. It is well worth it. I can't speak for all women, but I can't (well, I can, but don't enjoy) dance with a man who only has either a head or a heart. I need both. Best, Greedy Nina At 05:44 PM 8/19/2008, Joe Grohens wrote: Jack Dylan wrote: Mario, Don't make the mistake of trying to model your dance on someone else. Ricardo Vidort and the other milongueros come from a bygone age. Yes, let's marvel at their dancing but, when a milonguero dies, his dance dies with him and that's the way it has to be. What you need to do is find your own dance. Take lessons, learn good technique, learn some figures, practice, dance a lot and, eventually, your own dance will come, And it'll be your dance and no one else's. Jack It is very true what Jack says - one needs to find one's own dance. In my experience, that process of finding your dance does involve seeing things you like in other dancers, and trying to do them yourself, and keeping the parts that fit your body's abilities, personality, and dance circumstances. I think imitation can be a valid first step towards acquiring your own style. I suppose it's possible to end up being merely an imitator, but that's only if imitation is where you stop your development. It is very hard to really imitate fully the style of another dancer. And copied stylistic traits always look like an inferior copy. Joe ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Melina´s_DJing_Primer
Melina, Just a word of suuport. Pugliese tandas are very special. They carry greater meaning to Argentine people than to foreigners. Maestro Pugliese was a communist sympathizer and was very much disliked by Peron in the 1940s. Some of his greatest music was recorded then. For Argentine people, this music is very special. When Horacio Godoy DJayed the famous Club Almagro on Tuesday nights many years ago, which was one of the most incredible milongas of all time, he dimmed the lights and the people, most of whom were Argentine at that time, which was 10 years ago or so, would find their most special dance partner for that tanda. It was amazing to see people who sat all night, clearly by choice, get up just once during the night and for this one tanda. In terms of music, Pugliese arrangements are very special. He was a communist and so if you listen carefully to the music, you might discover that the instruments have equally featured parts. Because we dance to historic music, its meaning must include the stories and what it meant to the people throughout the decades of its life. We cannot just know the music and the lyrics. Just as tango is inseparable from the poetry of its lyrics, it is inseparable from the history of Argentina. All the best, Nina Quoting Melina Sedo Detlef Engel [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hey all, after I've been away for a couple of days, I was quite surprised by the personal attacks and complaints to my DJing article, that was posted by Andreas. Just to specify: - The article was written and published in April 2006 in the Tangodanza magazine. While travelling, I was encountering a lot of Milongas without proper DJing. This inspired my to write a few lines. - The article was not meant to be patronizing but as a help or guideline for aspiring DJs or Tango-scenes without a DJ. Quite a few tango-organizers and DJs thanked me for my efforts. - Yes: Pugliese was much hipper then, as he is now. Today, I would not rank him so high, but he is still one of the masters of dramatic Tango. One Tanda of Pugliese at the high point of the evening can surely be no mistake. No need to insult me. That's it. Bye, Melina Melina Sedo Detlef Engel - www.tangodesalon.de www.youtube.com/tangodesalon [EMAIL PROTECTED] (0049) (0)681 9381839 (0049) (0)177 4340669 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Save the last dance for...
I deleted Astrid's original post from this e-mail because it made it too long to be posted. To make sense of my comment, you need to read her post. Astrid, Beautiful and sad post. Tango as we knew and loved it is dying. If we don't admit it, we might miss the right moment to say goodbye properly before its last breath. Instead of seduction and pleasure, it has become a dance of engineering figures. It takes both partners to know their part on a level that goes beyond the movement in tango. Astrid, the ladies value the kicks because this is all that they might get in that dance. The men, on the other hand, might make it a sport to control the wild, kicking partner and try to make something of the dance. They call it connection and marvel at how well each leads or follows. Here, you might see milongas where men no longer lust after the women they dance with. They don't even pretend to lust after them or after a dance with them! Not even out of politeness! And the women try so hard to have a bit of some exciting energy with the men that they loose their dignity pursuing it. This beautiful dance of men and women came into a culture outside of Argentina that has long ago suffocated the sexy and exciting energy between strangers. And now it's suffocating this dance, because it loves it and has embraced it... And now the dance does not even exist in Buenos Aires. There are some precious exceptions, but they are dissappearing. Argentine tango, which we knew and loved, is dying. Every day, I honor it and try to keep the memory. I don't want to miss that last moment, one and only chance, to say goddbye. Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Social Tango + Puppy Castello on style
Joe, You can read the archives of the tango-l. There is a story in detail about how Susana Miller invented the term milonguero when she began teaching in the early 1990s. The reason that Puppy and others didn't say that they danced milonguero style is because they didn't know that they did!:) Best, Nina At 04:40 PM 8/6/2008, Joe Grohens wrote: Trini wrote: With male students, I can often tell early on whether he is more suited to a milonguero style or salon and will teach accordingly. So, are those the two main choices? (And if so, why?) For me tango is an emotional, artful expression and I don't want to intellectualize when I dance. But isn't that what you are doing if you categorize the guy you are about to dance with? As for my personal style, my base is milonguero. Though I dance all of the others pretty well, I recognize my limitations, physical and otherwise. OK - so you dance milonguero, plus all of the others. And that would be called dancing a style. Next time someone asks me what style I dance, that will be my answer too: all of the styles. Now, thankfully, everyone can know in advance what it will be like to dance with me. Yow -- all these years not knowing what my style was, but finally, I've got it. .. Speaking of milonguero. The BBC Confiteria Ideal 2005 documentary is sampled on youtube. (It's nicely done, and includes interviews w. Javier Geraldine, Puppy Castello, and Chicho.) Check out Puppy Castello in this clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5CmBLdEY9A transcription Puppy: The most difficult thing is the tango walk. Anyone can do the steps -- me, for instance! But very few people can walk. [...] Puppy: Most of the old milongueros, other than Portalea, are dead now. Times change. Maybe youngsters are dancing the tango of the future. But I like my own style. Interviewer: What style do you dance? Puppy: It's the style of the 40s. It has rhythm and elegance. Young people move like elephants. For instance, look at Geraldine, who dances our style of tango. She's 20 but she dances like us. /transcription What I want to know is - why didn't Puppy say my style is milonguero style? When you think of the kind of people you could classify as milongueros - wouldn't Puppy Castello have fit the bill? If Puppy Castello was a milonguero, why didn't he dance milonguero style? Maybe he is not a milonguero. In that case, what do you call him? A dancer? A salonero? Puppy himself called Portalea a milonguero. (But Portalea didn't dance milonguero style either.) -joe ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Different feeling in tango
Myk, Your approach to tango seems a bit too naive and too literal, but that probably will change in time. So just a few corrections: 1. Passion is allowed among people regardless of conventional partnerships, if people they are not repressed. 2. Partnerships do not control passion and one does not have to pretend to be playing a role in order to justify sharing passion with someone other than his or her partner. 3, Milonga gay does not mean segregation of gay people. It means that the codes of conduct are relaxed in regards to the music, the gender roles, the invitation style, etc. But... if you are not familiar with these milongas in BsAs, you wouldn't have known it. And you see what I mean about the cultural stuff? All I have to do is throw out the word milonga gay to someone raised in the Western homophobic reactionary society and I get an instant response! Keep working on it, Myk. You're doing just fine. Nina At 08:47 PM 7/24/2008, Myk Dowling wrote: Nina Pesochinsky wrote: Noticing the anatomical differences between genders is how 3-year-olds learn that mommy and daddy are different. Actually, I think they recognise their different facial features. Anatomical differences are way down the list. Human brains are hard-wired to recognise and distinguish faces The key words in Myk's post are playing a role. Real dancers do not play a role. They dance who they are. If a woman can't quite figure out the power of her gender, she is in trouble, just as a man swimming in feminine energy. Sorry, Nina, but you're wrong. Dancers play a role, because a dance is telling a story. A good dancer brings their self into the role. People's psyche's are rarely so pure, and the story of the dance is rarely reality. If you dance a passionate dance with someone who is not your partner, you are play-acting, dancing a role. I'm not sure why you want to be dismissive of this very powerful part of human culture. Humans can empathise and communicate fiction. It's a wonderful thing, deserving of great respect. Why is it that the Argentines have no issues with gender roles? They dance as men and women, and, if those roles don't work, they go to some milonga gay. But they certainly do not try to justify abandoning traditional gender roles in the traditional milongas. Perhaps it's traditional homophobia? What you are describing is called segregation, and it's something that I for one find quite abhorrent in principle. Why should gay people have to go to separate milongas? Actually, I am not against tango in energetic gender drag. I just want to know when and where it is happening, so that I can be prepared. :) I got nothin' against them gay folk, I jes' don't want to see 'em kissin' in front o' me! Spend a moment considering the similarities of those two statements, ignoring the obvious differences. -- Myk Dowling ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing socially to Piazzolla
From what I hear, Australia is not a very crowded place. Maybe Piazzolla could be considered social dancing there, but probably no place else.:) So how about designating what is acceptable as social Argentine tango country-by-country, such as Piazolla for Australia, Milonga Gay in every city in the U.S., stage tango in Russia, etc. Instead of other fake styles, such as milonguero, nuevo, etc., there could be new styles,. such as Argentine tango US style, or Argentine tango Australian style, etc. :) Nina At 04:40 AM 7/24/2008, Myk Dowling wrote: I'm not a great tango dancer (yet!), but if I enjoyed the dance, and my partner enjoyed the dance, and we followed the ronda and didn't run into anyone, how is that not social dancing, I wonder? -- Myk Dowling ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Hermanos Macana
Because they are not dancing the woman's part with a woman leading. Men dancing together is a diffrent thing than a man following a woman. Men dancing with each other has been a part of the development of AT, but women leading men has not. At 05:34 AM 7/20/2008, Martin Waxman wrote: For those on the list who firmly believe that gender roles in Argentine Tango are specific. If the Brothers Macana are not dancing Argentine Tango, what are they dancing? If it is not Argentine Tango, why aren't the posts labeled OFF TOPIC? Marty E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10290e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Would you like to lead or follow?
At least she asked for your preference... :) Maybe she was just tryig to impress you, sort of like doing a sword fight while wearing a long dress. Amazing that you danced with her after that exchange. That was very nice of you. If I was a man, I would have walked away without a word and never looked at her again. Christopher Walken is amazing. He is brilliant portraying sociopaths with a conscience, which does not exist in real life. As far as an effective attitude for strange tango incidents goes, how about Javier Braden in No Country for Old Men, without the air can vacuum thing? I kinda like the whole thing without words. This was the funniest post that I have read in a long time. Thank you, Mario! Nina At 11:54 PM 7/18/2008, Mario wrote: Tonight, I asked a woman to dance. She replied, Would you like to lead or follow? I was startled. I answered Do I look like a follow?..Hello-o-o. I had lapsed into Valley girl speak when what I should have done was my impersonation of Christopher Walken. So, Ok, I got it together and did my best Chris Wow, this is confusing!..I dance tango in order to feel like a man...and what do I get?...unisex? What's this.. no more man, woman? Is that it? ...she replied again, No, I just wanted to know if you wanted to lead or follow? I could have milked the scene, it was rich material so, I did a couple more lines in my best Christopher Walken voice (whenever I feel vulnerable, I go to Chris) and then we danced. It's the man who approaches the woman. It takes a bit of nerve to feel like you can pull it off with her...it's not easy. There should be some respect..I don't get any respect. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Would you like to lead or follow?
Marty, If a woman leads and a man follows, it may be a tango of some sort, but it is NOT Argentine. Nina There is no rule in Argentine Tango that the man has to be the leader? You will not get any respect because you THINK you are a leader. In my opinion, you will get great respect when you learn to lead WELL, and can also follow. There are women in our Tango community who prefer to lead. I have been asked by them if I would like to follow, and I have accepted. It's still Argentine Tango. Marty E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10280e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Any tango in South Africa?
Hello, dancers, Does anyone know if there is any tango in South Africa, around Cape Town? Any festivals? My search so far has been unsuccessful. I will be most grateful for any information. Many thanks. Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Villa Urquiza, et al
Quoting Deby Novitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I would have to concur with Ron. I find it almost laughable that people who have never been to Buenos Aires tout themselves as teaching the Villa Urquiza style of tango. This form of tango, along with orillero is almost never danced anymore. I learned to dance Villa Urquiza from Pocho who is 84 years old. It is very demanding on the woman. I have seen variations of Villa Urquiza in some of the milongas, and always danced by people who are older than 70. It is not taught here. Probably never was except by uncles or brothers or cousins. Orillero is a form of tango that was danced in Villa Devoto. Mimi taught me a variation of the dance for an exhibition we did when she visited San Francisco when I still lived there. Orillero is the one form of tango where the woman mimics the steps of the man. The back step cross is very distinct and I use it in some of my steps. Like Villa Urquiza it is not taught. You see it danced in shows but never in the milongas. Tango never became big business until the crisis hit here in 2001. In 2003 the government saw tango as an opportunity to promote tourism. There were seminars presented by the government to the tango business community on how to maximize their business. Overnight everyone became a teacher, a shoe store, a clothing store, a specialized hotel, tour agency for tango. Prices went through the sky. After all, why should people pay less just because it was Buenos Aires. A pair of tango shoes now costs upwards of $90. Now that we have so many new tango teachers everyone needs an angle. It is no longer enough to say that you are from Argentina. So now people say they teach Villa Urquiza, Estilo Amagro, Milonguero or whatever else sounds good. People who have been dancing less than 2 years now have ads in the local magazines as teachers and taxi dancers. It is horrifying. These people are the ones who are teaching and traveling. A brother sister duo who have a huge bankroll for full color page ads have danced less than 2 years. A friend of mine and Sandra's who is a taxi dancer who cannot dance is currently teaching in Germany for 4 months. It is pretty crazy. Then there is those of us who are so far removed from this scene. We go to the milongas to dance and see our friends. I never look out at the floor and think Wow, he is dancing apilado or I want to dance with that guy who dances estilo Amagro. No, instead it is more like, I want to dance with El boracho, but he wont give me the time of day. or Que hermoso este tango, quien puede bailar conmigo. (How beautiful this tango, who can dance with me) I don't ever recall my friends here in Argentine lamenting about styles or names of styles ever. They may watch a certain couple and comment on their dance (Que elegante o que disastre). For us tango is always about the music. E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10150e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Villa Urquiza, et al
Deby, How right you are! And how sad this is. I lived in BsAs in 1998-2000. I was there during the crisis of 2001. Now, every time I am there, I am looking for my Buenos Aires. I can find it still, but it is the Buenos Aires that has nothing to do with tango. The tourism has changed tango. The arguments for the economy and the benefit to everyone are true. But the change that happened to tango because of the tourism is grotesque to me. I no longer like the milongas and no longer like what I see. I do travel to more distant milongas where one can still catch a glimpse of the past. Villa Urquiza was respected as a place of tango. It still is, but only because of the old people from another era that still dance there. People like their barrio and are proud to be from there and dance there. If people want to call it a style, so be it - it will help someone to remember that Villa Urquiza meant something to dancers long ago as a respected place of tango. It is true that no Argentine that I know ever discusses a style. People just dance. They dance either well or not. Nina Quoting Deby Novitz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I would have to concur with Ron. I find it almost laughable that people who have never been to Buenos Aires tout themselves as teaching the Villa Urquiza style of tango. This form of tango, along with orillero is almost never danced anymore. I learned to dance Villa Urquiza from Pocho who is 84 years old. It is very demanding on the woman. I have seen variations of Villa Urquiza in some of the milongas, and always danced by people who are older than 70. It is not taught here. Probably never was except by uncles or brothers or cousins. Orillero is a form of tango that was danced in Villa Devoto. Mimi taught me a variation of the dance for an exhibition we did when she visited San Francisco when I still lived there. Orillero is the one form of tango where the woman mimics the steps of the man. The back step cross is very distinct and I use it in some of my steps. Like Villa Urquiza it is not taught. You see it danced in shows but never in the milongas. Tango never became big business until the crisis hit here in 2001. In 2003 the government saw tango as an opportunity to promote tourism. There were seminars presented by the government to the tango business community on how to maximize their business. Overnight everyone became a teacher, a shoe store, a clothing store, a specialized hotel, tour agency for tango. Prices went through the sky. After all, why should people pay less just because it was Buenos Aires. A pair of tango shoes now costs upwards of $90. Now that we have so many new tango teachers everyone needs an angle. It is no longer enough to say that you are from Argentina. So now people say they teach Villa Urquiza, Estilo Amagro, Milonguero or whatever else sounds good. People who have been dancing less than 2 years now have ads in the local magazines as teachers and taxi dancers. It is horrifying. These people are the ones who are teaching and traveling. A brother sister duo who have a huge bankroll for full color page ads have danced less than 2 years. A friend of mine and Sandra's who is a taxi dancer who cannot dance is currently teaching in Germany for 4 months. It is pretty crazy. Then there is those of us who are so far removed from this scene. We go to the milongas to dance and see our friends. I never look out at the floor and think Wow, he is dancing apilado or I want to dance with that guy who dances estilo Amagro. No, instead it is more like, I want to dance with El boracho, but he wont give me the time of day. or Que hermoso este tango, quien puede bailar conmigo. (How beautiful this tango, who can dance with me) I don't ever recall my friends here in Argentine lamenting about styles or names of styles ever. They may watch a certain couple and comment on their dance (Que elegante o que disastre). For us tango is always about the music. E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (5.5.1.322) Database version: 5.10150e http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
Here are two glorious words that, sadly, never show up in tango promotions in English: - Bodacious - Stupendous Argentines are not so attached to the truth of the words. If you are about to announce a dancing couple that is going to dance a performance, and you say Here are the best dancers in the world!, does it really matter whether it is true or not? At that one split second, they might be. But it does not matter. Argentines know that. They do not hook into every word for its truth. It just needs to sound good. When a man tells a woman when they dance Ojos claros! Que divina hermosa mujer!', should she argue with him because it may not really be true? And when a woman tells the man she just danced with that he is the best dancer she has ever danced with, should he argue because his left brain might be whispering to him doubts about that? I hope not! Nina At 07:36 PM 6/9/2008, Tom Stermitz wrote: Naaah, not fraud. It's just the same Superlative Crisis that has been sweeping the world these last few years. There just aren't enough superlatives to deal with all the extra- ordinary, far beyond mortal, Gods among mere god-lets that we have in tango. If the last great master was beyond amazing, then the next one has to be a master of masters. Sure, he's just a shoe salesman, but he's hushed-aweARGENTINE/ hushed-awe. Where will this nuclear arms race ever end!? On Jun 9, 2008, at 7:24 PM, Chris, UK wrote: Marketing or hype? Too polite to call it fraud, Janis? ;) Sadly this is one aspect of tango which some Brits do every bit as well as the Argentines. E.g. this UK teaching couple http://tinyurl.com/ 5pmbh4 who claim to have won the World Argentine Tango Show Championship. Despite there being no record of a World Argentine Tango Show Championship ever having been held. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Marketing or hype?
Milton Myers, a master teacher, choreographer and former principal dancers of the Alvin Ailey Dance Company in NY, once said in class that all dance teachers have some gems. Some of them have many and they spill them in front of their students. But others have only one or two. Most students wait for the teachers that spill lots of gems before they start picking them up. But it is the student that is not only picking all those spilled gems, but also who is able to pick that one gem from that not the best of the teachers is the one that will end up with a bigger treasure. There is a very basic thing about tango teaching and learning - if you look at a dancer who is also a teacher and you want to dance like him or her, then by all means take the lessons with that teacher. But if you look at that teacher and do not want to dance like him or her, then does it really matter whether this dancer is the last deity of tango? The question is who controls the student - other people of his/her internal drive? If it is other people, then he/she needs to spend lots of money on lots of lessons to figure it out. It is a journey, and the words don't matter. Nina At 08:40 PM 6/9/2008, Chris, UK wrote: Argentines are not so attached to the truth of the words. ... But it does not matter. Argentines know that. They do not hook into every word for its truth. It just needs to sound good. Let's see if I understand you correctly, Nina. When the student who's fallen for this hype finds himself spending $30 of his money and two hours of his time listening to an Argentine telling him how to dance tango, it does not matter whether this Argentine's claims to be a great dancer and master teacher are actually true. Rather, it just needs to sound good. ??? -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango who needs it?
Chris, I agree. I don't think that tango brings out the worst in people. It brings out everything, including some very beautiful characteristics of people that otherwise might be hidden from the world. But there is one thing that shows up in tango more than in any other part of life, in my experience, and it is betrayal. Many different kinds. Nina Quoting Chris, UK [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Deby Novitz wrote: Our tango culture is so different than the cultures outside of Buenos Aires Tango-L is truly unique. Where else could one find North Americans claiming Buenos Aires tango is our culture? ;) For whatever reason tango seems to bring out the worst in people outside of Buenos Aires. Speak for your own tango third world country Deby, but not for everywhere else, please. -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango who needs it?
Many stories, both witnessed and experienced over the last 12 years. Many stories were witnessed by many other people over the years because they involved well-known dancers. Other stories are just stories, similar in their once up on a time and forever after scenarios. Nina Quoting Dubravko Kakarigi [EMAIL PROTECTED]: - Original Message From: Nina Pesochinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... But there is one thing that shows up in tango more than in any other part of life, in my experience, and it is betrayal. Many different kinds. Is there a story here? I am curious ... ...dubravko === seek, appreciate, and create beauty this life is not a rehearsal === ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango Diversity under one big tent: Nuevo milonguerohappy together?
Good point, John. But Ballroom is actually a well-defined discipline of dance with incredibly rigorous training. How about calling nuevo Fake Tango? Or Pretend Tango? Or Wanna-be-tango? The criteria would be no embrace, no musicality (apparent deafness), off axis movements, no self-awareness, a serious face and an attitude of self-importance. All of these conditions must be present in order to meet the criteria. This, of course, would be for the purpose of diagnosis by others. The problem with dancers that pursue fake tango is that THEY ACTUALLY LIKE THE WAY THEY DANCE. Until that changes, nothing else will. Best, Nina Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]: There is a lot of sense in what Ron says. After all, you never see anyone dancing ballroom tango at a milonga. At least I never have. Perhaps it is time to rename nueveo Argentine Ballroom Tango to go alongside International Ballroom and American Ballroom, and to have special events devoted to it. Milonguero could be called Classical Argentine Tango, on the lines of classical ballet. Then everybody would know what to expect. John Ward Bristol, UK ___ Free games from Tiscali Play - http://www.tiscali.co.uk/play ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango Diversity under one big tent: Nuevo milonguerohappy together?
The problem is that Tango Nuevo is essentially a lie. I speak as a former devoted member of that club. It is not nuevo because there is nothing new. It was a disappointing discovery after I had danced the glorious nuevo moves at some practica in and then danced with an old gentlemen at Sunderalnd that did as a matter of course one of the moves we were so pround of and regarded as one of the nuevo moves. It is also not tango because it ignores some of the basic principles of the dance called Argentine Tango. I don't mean rejects. I do mean ignores, as if those principles did not exist and/or had meaning. But... people are free to engage in self-deception. And... I am free to entertain myself by appreciating how cute it is when new dancers get excited about silly little things :) It is like saying There is a NEW tango that is being created, and, Suprise!, we are the innovators! When little kids draw some silly picture and smear colors all over and then present it as if it was the treasure of the world, all proud of themselves, we are supposed to say Great drawing! You are so talented! And then give them a hug and a kiss and send them off to do more of the same, which they cheerfully and energetically do. Somehow, we know that this will pass. I need to stop thinking that nuevo fans are serious and mature dancers. I need to remember to say you are great! this is the best dancing I have ever seen! and hope that they will run off and do something... eventually. Nina Quoting Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nina Pesochinsky wrote: How about calling nuevo Fake Tango? Or Pretend Tango? Or Wanna-be-tango? The criteria would be no embrace, no musicality (apparent deafness), off axis movements, no self-awareness, a serious face and an attitude of self-importance. All of these conditions must be present in order to meet the criteria. Uhm - that's quite a drastic redefinition of Nuevo (and would actually apply to many rabid foaming-at-the-mouth nuevo haters with too little introspection, too, as a matter of fact). It's my impression that fake tango can be danced (just as badly) in many different styles. I just call tend to call bad tango bad tango. And in fact, not even a close embrace can make me think of bad tango as good, even though the couple would just fail at *one* of your criteria for fake tango. -- Alexis Cousein [EMAIL PROTECTED] Senior Systems Engineer/Solutions Architect SGI/Silicon Graphics -- If I have seen further, it is by standing on reference manuals ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires.
Sometimes I would prefer that some dancers embrace themselves instead of me! :) NIna At 07:23 PM 5/13/2008, Michael wrote: From: Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires. My dance teacher once said: Before we can embrace others, we have to be able to embrace ourselves. Michael I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango - Original Message - From: Mario [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Tango-L] Embrace and musicality in Buenos Aires. Here is a really honest and perceptive self examination by a very sensitive Tanguera. http://tinatangos.com/blog/seattle/embracing-the-person/ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nuevo Tango is not looking back
Yeah, they predicted the same thing about 10 years ago. Nothing happenned. It is all the same as it was then, only the people had changed. And that new music that was also promised back then also does not seem to be happenning... Mario wrote: --- We know that Nuevo Tango can dance to most any kind of music. Mario, Nuevo Tango can't dance anything or to anything. It is called nuevo because it does not fit the category of dancing :). I am sure that those that claim to be tango nuevo dancers are deaf and don't want to be discovered. But it is diffucult to hide because they are usually outside of the music, regardless what the music is. But... Hope springs eternal in the human breast; Man never Is, but always To be blest: The soul, uneasy and confin'd from home, Rests and expatiates in a life to come. -Alexander Pope, An Essay on Man, Epistle I, 1733 At 07:36 PM 5/10/2008, Mario wrote: We've heard it said that the Nuevo Tango is sucking in the youth and soon they will convert to Salon Tango once they get into the music of it. Well, don't hold your breath. We know that Nuevo Tango can dance to most any kind of music..Prediction: A new music will evolve that will Catapult Nuevo Tango into it's own orbit...it is like when the P.C. was waiting for the killer application, in order to really take off...and it got it. Now, the dance is here (thanks to the old) and it's waiting for it's music.. you heard it here, first. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6wnltkOb28 - Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
Keith, I want to take it just a bit further. The man-woman thing in tango is pretty precious. Where else do you find it? In relationships?! I think not. In relationships, you have to deal with a whole bunch of other stuff - commitments, schedules, moods, discussions, negotiations, laundry, and want not. :) Where else can you have the man-woman thing pure? No place but in tango, of course! It can be pure romance, with no commitment, no obligation, and no further responsibility after a 10 minute tanda. Granted, this freedom has a huge price, but still... So why give up on the man-woman thing? To some, tango is an engineering and architechtural project. To others, it is an emotional playground. Values, values, values! Nina Quoting Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Tango is a dance between a man and a woman and I've never seen a woman who could dance very good Tango in the man's role. I'm not saying they don't exist, just that I've never seen one. I've been to La Marshall twice, and I've seen men who could play the woman's role but never the other way around. Can anyone provide a link to a YouTube video showing a woman dancing the man's role as well as an intermediate/advanced man? Keith, HK On Sun May 4 23:11 , Chris, UK sent: I'm glad, because most of the lady leaders were amongst the worst ronda disruptors. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter Network, email, and web servers powered by renewable wind energy. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
Chris, You are brilliant, This is the best explanation. And the shortest one. Need to add the scoialization part, since things happen after the chromosomes come together and before tango happens. I guess that would be culture, but I don't want to talk about culture anymore!:) Thank you! Nina At 11:14 AM 5/4/2008, Chris, UK wrote: So, can women lead as well or better as men? My answer is no. Can men follow? Oh, yes. Very true. Leading comes from the Y chromosome, and following from the X. ;) -- Chris ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Salud, Dinero y Amor
Dear dancers, musicians, and poets, I have found two versions of this vals - Rodriguez y Canaro. Are there any others? I must have them all (some wonder why bother?, right? Well, it is my drinking song :). Please let me know if you know of any other recordings. Many thanks, Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
Only one man in a thousand is a leader of men, the other 999 follow women. Groucho Marx At 07:07 PM 5/3/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The second Tuesday there starts here in L.A. a practica hosted by CasaDePractica.com for ladies who lead. I intend to go as a follower. When I first saw women leading (mostly) other women I was annoyed. It meant that TWO women were taken out of the pool of women dancers. I was also annoyed because most of the women had all the bad qualities of beginning leaders: insensitivity to their surroundings, trying movements too advanced for them, trying fast and big movements which endangered others, and so on. As time went by I noticed more women leading, but grew less annoyed. As their average skill level improved they became less dangerous. It also dawned on me that here was a chance to learn to be a follower. I'd heard that learning to follow made (most) leaders better. Also, in classes I'd had teachers who were really good leaders demonstrate a technique by leading me in it. It was fun. I didn't have to think or be responsible or anything but just float along and enjoy the music. It took me years to get to the point where I could experience this Zen tango while leading and it might have taken longer if I hadn't had some meditation training. So out of curiosity is this phenomenon, ladies leading, on the rise in other areas? And do they lead men a lot? Larry de Los Angeles _ Looking for insurance? Click to compare and save big. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifSf08r7S7J1g5xO1uQ8fNnN5BiKtjXfZdaBr2hsiThnIx0m/?count=1234567890 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Ladies Leading
Larry, First, I had to laugh. Now I can be serious. So where did the men get the naive idea that following is not having to think or be responsible or anything but just float along and enjoy the music. ?! I think that you should follow, but not a woman. Follow a man who is good, and do wear 4 heels while dancing with him. (any transvestite/stage costume store should have something that you can use in large enough of a size to fit a man's foot). And listen carefully to his musicality so that your feel land on the music. If this works out right away, make sure that your body moves in such a way that everybody will know instantly that the man you are dancing with is a great dancer. Start with that, if you dare. I'd love to hear the report. Best, Nina At 07:07 PM 5/3/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The second Tuesday there starts here in L.A. a practica hosted by CasaDePractica.com for ladies who lead. I intend to go as a follower. When I first saw women leading (mostly) other women I was annoyed. It meant that TWO women were taken out of the pool of women dancers. I was also annoyed because most of the women had all the bad qualities of beginning leaders: insensitivity to their surroundings, trying movements too advanced for them, trying fast and big movements which endangered others, and so on. As time went by I noticed more women leading, but grew less annoyed. As their average skill level improved they became less dangerous. It also dawned on me that here was a chance to learn to be a follower. I'd heard that learning to follow made (most) leaders better. Also, in classes I'd had teachers who were really good leaders demonstrate a technique by leading me in it. It was fun. I didn't have to think or be responsible or anything but just float along and enjoy the music. It took me years to get to the point where I could experience this Zen tango while leading and it might have taken longer if I hadn't had some meditation training. So out of curiosity is this phenomenon, ladies leading, on the rise in other areas? And do they lead men a lot? Larry de Los Angeles _ Looking for insurance? Click to compare and save big. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2111/fc/Ioyw6iifSf08r7S7J1g5xO1 uQ8fNnN5BiKtjXfZdaBr2hsiThnIx0m/?count=1234567890 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
David, Sad, sad... this is very sad. :) You dance with people because of their level of dance?! beginner or advanced?! And what if they have bad breath, look desperate, and have nothing intresting to say? What if you say axis to a woman, and she smiles and says yes, of course, but is thinking this guy is crazy, I have no idea what he is talking about? The sad part is when people dance with people only because of what they perceive the other person's dancing level to be. Once, in ancient times, I danced with a man who, as I recall, may not have been a great dancer (but I can't be sure). While we danced, he was telling me hillarious jokes in my ear. I was hurting from laughter. I laughted at those jokes for years. You can teach someone to find his/her axis (and even someone else's :), and whatever else, but you cannot teach them to be witty and entertaining. On a serious note, dancers hold real power to mold other dancers. A man who is a fabulous dancer, can teach a woman, any woman, almost any basic technical element non-verbally, while simply dancing with her. But why would we do that? Social duty? Not at all. Instead, more from a recognition that people are much more than their dancing abilities, and that it may be a mistake to dance with a proficiency level instead of a person. Best, Nina At 05:59 PM 4/28/2008, David Thorn wrote: Although I am a lead, I contribute negatively to the gender imbalance situation. I am an adequately decent dancer, perhaps one of those terminal intermediates who prey on the beginners. I dance with beginning and with advanced follows. I almost never dance with the intermediate follows. When a beginner is dangling off my neck, pulling me over, clamping my arm or jumping from foot to foot and generally making my dance unpleasant, I will politely ask ask her to manage her own axis, or to wait, or whatever, and explain that I have a bad rotator cuff, or whatever. Thinking that I am a good dancer, she will say OK, do so, and then the dance is fine. The local follows who are advanced know that I am a good, but certainly not excellent, dancer. However I am good enough that I can give them a decent dance and they will have a good time. They can also manage their axis, they wait, don't clamp my arm, etc, and no requests are required. They say yes to my dance invitations and we have a fine dance. But the intermediate follows, which means most of them, or at least very many, often can not manage their axis, and or don't wait for a lead, and/or But, since they know that I am only an intermediate myself, are quite offended if I make any requests, even regarding my damaged rotator cuff. They KNOW that they are not clamping my arm. I have simply quit asking them to dance. Probably slightly passive aggressive, but it does avoid conflict, I can have an excellent evening of dance, and I only feel slightly bad about all those sad intermediate follows lined up against the wall looking hopefully out at the floor. Cheers D. David Thorn _ Spell a grand slam in this game where word skill meets World Series. Get in the game. http://club.live.com/word_slugger.aspx?icid=word_slugger_wlhm_admod_april08 ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
I forgot to mention something that was the reason that I wrote the post in the first place - any one dancer, a man or a woman, needs only one other dancer at any moment that he/she would like to dance. It is ot a requirement that all other people in the room are dancin. So gender balance/imbalance is irrelevant. It is not how many are there that is important, but rather who is there. If a woman wants to dance with a particular man, and he is busy dancing with someone else, he is not available and it is irrelevant whether there are other men and that there may be gender balance. That particular man is not available for that particular tanda. Instead dancing with whomever, and spend the precious music while thinking I wish I was dancing with the other one, it might be better to sit. And, (would you believe ?!), it is possible to walk into a milonga in BsAs, full of people, some very good dancers, and say There is nobody here to dance with!. Nina ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] gender imbalance
Or, I can't find anything to wear in your closet. At 07:20 PM 4/28/2008, NANCY wrote: Ah yes! The 'I have nothing to wear' closet. N Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Smoke in BA is not tango related?!
Floyd, The smoke in BsAs IS TANGO RELATED! Those of us with a profound connection to Argentina have close friends there. There are also many old dancers that we know, whose health is greatly affected by these conditions. It is not important who is to blame. The fact is that the smoke is there and the people are suffering. None of us can do anything to help the people we care about. I don't know what this smoke will do to our friends there, especially those who are old. The older dancers are dissappearing already. Because I currently do not live in BsAs, every time I go, I learn about the deaths of old dancers whom I knew and was very fond of. After this, who knows what and who we will find?! The smoke is the human aspect of tango. This is the world of those who live in Buenos Aires. People who wrote about it on the list, are not only affected themselves, but also care greatly about what happens. I am happy to hear what they have to say. Without considering the human aspect of tango, any discussion about tango is idiotic. NIna At 01:00 PM 4/20/2008, Floyd Baker wrote: Right now I consider this *entire* subject with it's various threads to be off topic., and I'm sorry I entered into it. It is all to do with smoke, and not about Tango. Beyond that., it is very unfortunate for all the victims and terrible conditions that you say exist. I do understand that., and I feel for those who are suffering. Here is my private response to your private email. The one not addressed to Tango-L Both of which are identical afai can see. Deby.. To me it was a 'possiblity'. I have not been there nor know the farmer's standard of living. So, I believe my statement was put in the manner of a question...? If anyone knew what their standard of living was. You seem to know. Fine. They're millonairs ;-/ No difference! Money still rules, eh? If not the lightning, or the kids, or 'starving' farmers.., then people will still do what it takes to get things done to suit themselves. I would say that a 16 percent increase IS excessive. No matter they can 'afford' it. Perhaps the government should help to increase production and export, instead of charging more for what is *already* being done. Grasslands exist all over the country. I'm sure there would be no problem growing soy somewhere other than upwind of the city.., right? And it could be mandated..? So what is the 'real' problem. And will it continue to happen? Can anyone give a Tango related solution? Abrazos... Floyd On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 12:57:02 -0300, you wrote: I am sorry Floyd but you have no clue. You should read a little more before you state an opinion that is completely ignorant. The farmers here are some of the richest people in the country. They have a very high standard of living. Agribusiness came to Argentina during the crisis. There are very few small farms left, just like in the U.S. The difference here is that we have stricter controls over the use of hormones, feed, and genetic engineering. My friend from Texas owns 3 ranches here with his Argentine partners. He is not the exception. Talk to anyone from Argentina and they will tell you that the money is with farming now. The guys that set the fires are millionaires. They were clearing the land to plant more soy. These were grasslands used to feed cattle. These are the same people who last month were protesting the 16% increase on soy export taxes as being unfair. My friend who is the attorney for one of the provinces said the 16% tax to them is nothing compared to the huge profits they reap. They protested to try and make the president look bad for the tax, and it backfired on them. This situation with the grasslands was a horror story. You could not see more than 100 meters in front of you. All major highways were closed. The subte was closed down. This was a crisis due to the greed and stupidity of a few people. There have been over 100 arrested and 3 people so far are being charged. Hospitals were overflowing with people who were asthmatics that could not breathe. The carbon monoxide was causing us to be eternally tired and they were very fearful of the levels. My plants on my 17th floor balcony were dying. I was part of the horrendous fire that was in Oakland California in 1991 that was considered one of the worst wildfires in the history of the U.S. It did not even come close to what was happening here. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l Buffalo Tango - Argentine Tango - How To Tango * * * * * * www.buffalotango.com * * * * * * ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu
Re: [Tango-L] Surplus Tanguera - Not
Hi, Val, Milonga Sans Souci in Denver Colorado. Traditional seating with men and women seated separately and reserved seating for couples. See you there! Nina At 03:11 PM 4/17/2008, Valerie Dark wrote: I wish there were reserved seating milongas north of the equator. We would pay double the going entrada. But there aren't any. Val -- Cryptic Ember - The tango blog of Valerie Dark http://crypticember.blogspot.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] dressing well?
Joe, Yes, indeed, one might need a cold shower or two after that. I would love to see that, instead of the amoeba tango so prevalent everywhere now. Dressing well in tango is not about the clothes. It is about respect - of yourself and others. The author of the article made it very clear that, in his opinion, in bad nuevo, bad clothes communicate no respect. It is about self-care. It is also about the stimulus value - knowing what effect you have on others and being able to control that. Personally, I respect a man that can dress himself well (and does not need a woman to pick out his ties). Maybe the bad clothes communicate Save me! or I am looking for a home. Or maybe they just communiate that a person does not know himself/herself well and how he/she presents himself/herself to the world. Or maybe they say - Stay away! or look at me!, or I am a rebel!. Or maybe the bad clothes clearly state a nuevo gang affilliation. Do they have their colors? :) Dancing well is not a phenomena isolated from other things about a person. A person cannot dance well and remain a slob in his/her life. Tango does not forgive lying. If one tries to lie in this dance, he/she willl pay with self-esteem. Personally, if a man has charm, I don't care what he wears, as long as he smells good. But charm is rare and very expensive in a non-material way. It requires a purposeful cultivation of an innate talent. And a very controlled ego. If a man has charm, he can be a bad dancer and I will not even notice it. But if a man has no charm, then I will hold him to the highest standard of dancing. Best, Nina At 01:50 PM 4/17/2008, Joe Grohens wrote: Well, let's watch a traditional couple who really knows how to dance tango, and who are dressed properly. Keep your fire extinguisher handy. You may need a cold shower afterward. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDKwI0I8xmsfeature=related ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] New nuevo tango Sacrifices Tradition and Grace
Great article. Thank you, Huck. I think that it is OK that they dance that way. For now. If they are under 30, they probably do not have the inner resources to appreciate the finer things of tango that the author refers to. Some of it may be even scary for them. But if you give them 10 years or so, they might change. By that time, all of the current traditionalists of whatever age might be dead, and so these people will be the future dancers. And they will not dance as they do now. This stuff is deeply unsatifying after one achieves a level of maturity that commands self-respect. So tango nuevo is a great trick meant to suck in the young and innocent, and keep them there until they become smart enough and mature enough to be trusted with the real thing. Nina At 08:22 PM 4/16/2008, Huck Kennedy wrote: On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 7:04 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's a great article by Terence Clarke on Tango Nuevo, with the popular DNI school in BsAs as an example of what he terms Playground Tango: http://blogcritics.org/archives/2008/04/15/125453.php As I read through this article, I was so hoping for a cargo pants reference and almost thought I was going to be disappointed, when finally--Yes!! It showed up in the next-to-last paragraph. Fantastic! Bravo, Mr. Clarke. Huck ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] [Tango-A] SA: Tango Therapy Congress
This is really cute! Not that tango is not therapy... Watching people dance and learn over the last 13 years, I would propose with some certainly that everyone gets therapized, one way or another, whether they want to or not :). And things do get worse before they get better, just as they sometimes do with more traditional forms of therapy. Neuroticism must be a side effect of the treatment. I assume they do not follow the principles of evidence-based practice... I wonder how they measure the outcomes :) Best, Nina At 04:38 PM 4/1/2008, Janis Kenyon wrote: The first international congress of Tango Therapy will be held July 17-19, 2008, in Rosario, Santa Fe, Argentina. Those of you who are health professionals may want to attend (and combine it time in the milongas). One speaker is from Washington University, St. Louis, Missouri. http://www.congresotangoterapia.com/ ___ Tango-A mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-a ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Interesting Practcie Tool
Sticks are a great practice tool. Daniel Trenner had introduced the sticks as a practice instrument to his students at least 12 years ago, if not earlier. Pocho Pizzarro (sp?) danced with the brooms in the early 1990's for a video recording of SoloTango. Is it true that there is nothing new in Aregentine tango?:) Best, Nina At 04:32 PM 3/23/2008, Michael wrote: I will go to great lengths to improve my dancing. To improve my molinetes, I've practiced with a circular garbage can. To improve my frame I practiced with a broom handle on my shoulders behind my head with my arms hanging on it. I know I do crazy things, but sometimes, the crazier; the better the tool. Yesterday, I went to New York for my monthly gift to myself. I saw the show El Tango y Ella Milonga. In one scene, Anton Gazenbeek came onto the stage with two long, thin, sticks. They must have been at least 5 feet long. He danced with them to nueve de julio. The sticks represented the woman's feet. As he lead the sticks in a molinete, he practiced barridas, sacadas, displacements, ganchos, and I don't remember the rest. I was really impressed!! And the best part- there were no arguments between the partners, which I sometimes see at practicas. H!! Michael Ditkoff I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango Finally, two weeks to Atlanta Tango Festival ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] bad Nuevo
Heather, I agree. Well-said! This is an excellent, clear explanation. Thank you! Nina At 04:49 PM 2/28/2008, Heather Whitehead wrote: The source of Nuevo's inferiority is that it is a movement based Movement. It is motivated by the biomechanic possibilities. This can be an intellectual pursuit of physical dexterity that in the end takes precedence over the music. The aesthetics produced from movements inspired first from the music, TANGO music, have the lasting power and beauty of something truer. You will notice many Nuevo dancers find no contradiction at all in dancing tango to non-tango music. This is why. _ Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star power. http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] FW: women as leader
La Marshall (in Buenos Aires) - the milonga of all gay milongas! Even all of the gay milongas in the US (which is most of the milongas) cannot beat that one. I was definitely dreaming when I saw two men dance there recently. It was eye candy. The man who was following put most women to shame. He was amazing. Beautiful, powerful, expressive! And masculine, being true to who he is. That was the moment that testified for me that most women are super boring as followers. Well, most women are super boring as leaders as well. I think that men that comment on this topic should learn to follow really well and then follow a woman. I guarantee that these men will be bored to tears. Then, when the following technique of these men becomes good, they should try to dance with some awesome Argentine dancer who is used to dancing with men. Then... maybe men should learn to dance like that man danced, and men can dance with each other and may never want to dance with a woman again. If I was a man, and could dance like those two guys did, I wouldn't want to dance with any women. Hurray for gay milongas! :) Nina At 08:13 PM 2/28/2008, Mario wrote: OK...as a Tango newbie but one with great interest in the sensuality of the dance. Here is where I want to cast my vote. If the follower is dreaming and the leader is leading... who cares if the leader is male or female??? What has that to do with anything? Two women dancing with the leader leading and the follower with eyes closed dreaming... bring it on and if it is two woman. Mehor!!! great This may be what makes TANGO the Universal Dance!! What could be more sensual??? Must we be always limited to; ...how many men are available? and ...How many men can ...'get it'...?? More women dancing lead is the way of the future.. Less wars less everything that screws up the human situation. Bring on the Tango, the embrace and the trance of the perfect dance... - Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] bad, wrong, Nuevo
Yes, that is correct. It was exactly like that . Argentines were not willing to sell out the sex, the embrace, the man-woman thing, for funky movements. It is only in bad nuevo style that the woman became absolutely superfluous. When a woman can feel a fabulous scent of a man's skin, when he is not afraid of her, when his embrace is confident and spirit bright, she will forgive him any and all weird tango moves for at least 10 minutes. Bad nuevos have not figured this out yet :) Nina At 08:14 PM 2/28/2008, Ira Goldstein wrote: Hi List, Heather, Nina: So...the real tango music popped out of an egg in some perfect final form...and was accompanied by the birth of the real tango dance in some perfect final form; no evolution, no invention, no experimentation, no new possibilities created or discovered or tested or somehow alloyed into it along the way? --Ira At 6:57 PM -0700 2/28/08, Nina Pesochinsky wrote: Heather, I agree. Well-said! This is an excellent, clear explanation. Thank you! Nina At 04:49 PM 2/28/2008, Heather Whitehead wrote: The source of Nuevo's inferiority is that it is a movement based Movement. It is motivated by the biomechanic possibilities. This can be an intellectual pursuit of physical dexterity that in the end takes precedence over the music. The aesthetics produced from movements inspired first from the music, TANGO music, have the lasting power and beauty of something truer. You will notice many Nuevo dancers find no contradiction at all in dancing tango to non-tango music. This is why. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] bad, wrong, Nuevo
Yup - good nuevo vs. bad nuevo - no fingers digging into the woman's side, no distance between partners as if everyone smells bad, no looking on the floor as if there was money, and so on. At 09:12 PM 2/28/2008, Ira Goldstein wrote: Hi, Nina-- okay... so for you there's good nuevo bad nuevo, the difference being the sex, the embrace, the man-woman thing ... okay--got it. Thanks! --Ira ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Posting open discussion on Tango-
Tom is right in the description of movement. Ten years ago or all entradas into a partner's step were regarded as displacements of the axis were and called sacadas because tango did not have as much of a ed language as it does now. Later, there was a distinction made between entradas and sacadas, where la entrada is walking into a step without interrupting the turn, and la sacada is a displacement on the back step interrupting the direction of the turn. In the turn, the actual entrada into the step of the woman is not a displacement of her axis. It is just a turn as any other for her. She does not have to do anything except dance the turn. With la sacada, this is no longer so. The turn is interrupted. So this is the difference between entering a step that would happen anyways, vs. taking away the movement, or a step, or a direction. NIna At 10:51 PM 2/22/2008, Tom Stermitz wrote: NOT LUNFARDO Sacar is regular spanish, meaning take away. To displace is not a bad English translation, but desplazar has more the sense of move through space. Sacada is often taught specifically in the turn, but the concept certainly applies in other situations. I guess in the nuevo sense they're all turns. Here's an example of a sacada in a straight line: heading to the cross in cross-footed, you can deny the cross by entering between the follower's legs using the leader's body, leg and foot. This could initiate a left turn if a pivot is applied at the same moment, but that isn't necessary; you might simply continue the walk. That raises the point that each stride of a regular parallel walk could also be thought of as a sacada, i.e. as the leader steps between the follower's legs, he displaces her axis and leg. AXIS, NOT FOOT The sacada really refers to displacing the axis. The foot or leg action is more of a visual element, an optical illusion as someone said. The power of the sacada comes from the axis of the leader effectively displacing the axis of the follower within the proper timing and energy of the movements. Precision of axis, which in one sense is as simple as just walking in a straight line, is a somewhat essential skill. On Feb 22, 2008, at 9:56 PM, Keith wrote: Well, they say you learn something new everyday. I'm certainly not going to argue about what words mean because my Spanish is limited and my Lunfardo non-existent. But I like to use the correct terminology and I've never heard before that a Sacada must interrupt a turn. I always thought a Sacada was a displacement of a leg or foot by the partner's leg or foot. This can occur at almost any time and not just during turns. I checked this site, which I usually use to check terminology: http://www.tejastango.com/terminology.html . Part of the definition of Entrada is ... 'without displacenment' and the definition of Sacada makes no mention of interrupting a turn. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Posting open discussion on Tango-
David, Yes, back entradas (some call them sacadas, but technically that is not correct because sacadas interrupt a turn, and these do not) can easily be danced in close embrace. The technical training that is required for ease and grace is tremendous. There is a huge confusion about styles in tango. Some styles are nothing more than bad form, bad technique, and, on the whole, bad dancing. If people want that style, fine. People often select a style without having the technique to build it on. Dancing in a style without a technique is a lie, a cheap immitation of something that could be fabulous. I am all for tango nuevo in good form with technique and a lot of training. A good dancer should be able to dance in any style equally well. Gustavo, Fabian, Chicho and some others have technique that allows them to have a true style, chosen by them and not by default because they cannot do anything else. And they dance it and show it off only in performances. Most of those who immitate them and call themselves nuevo dancers, usually do not have such technique, tend to be quite lazy in regard to mastering the dance in a technical sense because they cannot dance anything else, are usually aweful to dance with, look terrible and appear to be deaf, since most of the movements tend to happen outside of the music. Originally, nuevo tango was something very exciting. We all did it and worked like demons. And loved it. Now it is just a lot of bad dancing (with a few exceptions). Best, Nina At 05:47 PM 2/22/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The vocabulary when dancing with an embrace is infinite. Nothing is excluded on pure technical grounds... Perhaps I am showing my ignorance, but I haven't seen too many back saccadas or colgadas led while remaining in close embrace. It is bound to offend when people who do not follow the protocols and traditions of tango insist that their dance be held in the same regard as Argentine tango. It's like Pizza Hut demanding that their food be classified as Italian cuisine. Neil - I am not intending this as a personal attack and do apologize in advance if it would appear to be so. I don't know you and it is not a criticism of you, but rather a comment on what appears to be a common attitude on this list. OTOH, I'll be the first to admit that I might simply have misunderstood your remarks. But with that said: I find your remark to be quite insulting, bound to offend people who dance in any style other than whatever unspoken style it is that you consider the one and only true Argentine tango. If that one true style you refer to is close embrace/milonguero style, then the implication is that Fabian Salas, Chicho, Sebastian Arce, Gustavo Naveira, Sylvina Vals and hundreds of other other wonderfully skilled and excellent dancers are not tango dancers, or if they are, they are offensive to your taste and are the dance equivalent of fast food. If the one true style you are referring to is Nuevo, this is a similarly offensive statement. I don't understand the purpose of such a remark unless perhaps to shut down open discussion of any dance to Tango music that doesn't align with your personal taste. With apologies if I misunderstood, David Thorn ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Wiggles
Women who are dancers HATE wiggles. It is a meaningless move that says nothing, misses a bunch of music and does not feel good. If men want to do it, they better be sure that they know the woman they do it with, and know for sure that she likes it, or they might run a risk of woman just standing there waiting for the man to stop wiggling. Best, NIna At 06:13 AM 2/13/2008, Tango For Her wrote: Women LOVE wiggles. They say it feels good. But, I can say that wiggling their hips really accentuates their shape. One time, I was dancing with a woman right in front of her ex-boyfriend, recent ex-boyfriend. I made sure her back was to him and I led quite a few wiggles as we passed by his seat. Actually, we wiggled, shared pivot, wiggled, something else, wiggled. I remember making quite a display of it! I mentioned it to her, later. She said, I know what you were doing. And, thank you! :o) --- Melroy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry but I just call it a wiggle, if it's the same thing I do - and it sounds like it. I'm sure there is a more correct term, but hey, a wiggle's a wiggle - why complicate things. Actually I like wiggles. Mel. Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
Who is Oscar Casas? At 07:49 AM 2/13/2008, Keith wrote: I'm not being disrespectful, but I really, really have trouble understanding the Americans on this List. I assume you'll freely admit that no American can dance anywhere near the level of the Argentines.And yet you still insist on teaching Tango your way and not the Argentine way. Why is that? Do you really think you know better? If you do, it's OK, just say so. Tom, do you think you know more about Tango than Oscar Casas - he's just an example - I can find many more on YouTube. Here is a link of Oscar Casas teaching: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIKnh_1KR0A What is he teaching - the Tango 8CB. And at almost any class in BsAs, you will be taught the same figure in beginner classes. Tom, do you want to tell Oscar Casas what you wrote below? Do you think he cannot dance Tango with grace and musicality? Tom, do you think you're better than Oscar Casas? Please answer my question so that I can try to understand you. And why do the teach your sidewalk walk when I've never seen that taught in BsAs. The Argentines walk with grace, beauty, musicality and precision. Most American's don't. If you think they do - Tom, please provide some YouTube links. I'm sorry if you think I'm being anti-American, as I've been accused before on this List. I'm not - but you're trying to change Tango for the worse and I just don't like what you're doing. Why can't you just do things the Argentine way? I guess that's my question. Keith, HK On Wed Feb 13 1:07 , Tom Stermitz sent: On a social dance floor, the 8CB w/DBS is COMPLETELY non functional. When you are social dancing, you have to break the pattern every two steps, so why bother to learn a useless pattern. For a beginner, it is harmful: - It creates rote-patterns, - It takes away their prior ability to just walk around the room - It doesn't feel like dancing - It is impossible for them to dance it with grace and musicality. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
Keith, You are doing a fine job wasting your own time. If I have not heard of this Oscar and have to google him, that means he is not good enough or famous enough to talk about. :) Just because someone is teaching at El Beso, and just because this person is Argentine, means nothing. They are dime-a-dozen these days, of all ages and from all eras. By the way, the dancing at El Beso is also kinda unpredictable at times. Not a good explample. Keith. Try again. Nina At 08:30 AM 2/13/2008, Keith wrote: Don't waste our time Nina - never heard of Google? Oscar teaches at El Beso. Is your next question what's El Beso? A better question would be who's Tom Stermitz. Keith, HK On Wed Feb 13 22:58 , Nina Pesochinsky sent: Who is Oscar Casas? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Keith's questions
I am jumping up and down to answer Keith's questions, hoping to beat Nancy to it. First, an example of American Know-how and influence on milongas in Argentina: Americans brought to Argentina a concept of a milonga that Argentines call Milonga Gay. La Marshall on Wednesday nights is such a milonga. They play good traditional music. After each tanda or two, there is an alternative tanda. Men can dance with men and women with women. Men can also dance with women and women can lead men. Anyone can invite anyone, verbally or otherwise. Basically, anything goes. This is not an Argentine invention. Milonga Gay is an American invention embraced by the Argentines. La Marshall is super popular with lots of great dancers and teachers in attendance. In the US, practically every milonga is Milonga Gay. So who knows better how to create Milonga Gay - Americans or Argentines? :) I think that the Argentines are going to steal the whole concept and then claim that it was their invention. On another note: Americans think that they are better at teaching tango because they become Argentine prior to starting to teach. NIna At 08:44 AM 2/13/2008, Keith wrote: Nancy, This is exactly what I thought would happen, but hoped wouldn't. Americans immediately on the defensive, putting words in my mouth and making no attempt to answer my questions. Nancy, is there any American alive today who knows more about Tango than Oscar Casas? Simple question. And, as I said - he's just one example. The real question is, who knows more about teaching and dancing Tango - Argentines or Americans? Another simple question. And, yes I teach. And I do my very best to do it the way many Argentines have taught me. I just want to understand why Americans think they have a better way of teaching Tango. That's all I'm asking. Can anyone answer the question, please. Keith, HK ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Wiggles
So the point is that men need to be sure who they are dancing with and what that particular woman likes. To many women, a wiggle, especially at the end of a dance, is a sad, anticlimactic death of what otherwise could be a memorable dance experience. Best, NIna Nina does not speak for this woman dancer. In fact, I have been known to initiate a wiggle myself now and then. And the men seem to enjoy it. It is especially fun at the end of a milonga. Nancy Rito es la danza en tu vida y el tango que tu amas te quema en su llama de: Bailarina de tango por: Horacio Sanguinetti Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Breaking the 'paso basico.'
The legends told in 1996, dating back to 1983, had it that 8CB was invented in the spirit of balloom dances to give AT a point of reference where to start, when no one seemed to be able to find any other point of reference for the improvisational nature of tango. Stage has influenced that a lot as well, as modern dancers tried to figure out what this dance was when it returned to popularity in the early 80s. Following the history of development of certain movements in tango, another legend told that the cross was invented in the late 30s/early40s as an entrance into the turns, which became complicated as the music has changed with two prominent orchestras. When dancers began to look closer at the improvisational nature of tango, it became clear that there is no basic step, only fundamental principles, such as crossed and parallel relationship to the woman's feet, and a few conventions, such as the cross and the sequence of the woman's steps in the turns. Teaching an 8CB is alright, ecxcept that it is a slow and very old-fashioned way of teaching and dancing. It is not as efficient as teaching can be when focused on basic principles instead of combinations. I hope this helps. Best regards, Nina At 09:39 AM 2/13/2008, you wrote: Nina, and everybody else, This has got nothing to do with Oscar Casas. He's just one Argentine teacher who I happened to come across on YouTube teaching the 8CB. I'm talking about something much bigger and not specific to any particular teacher. I want to know why American teachers advocate teaching Tango differently than Argentine teachers. And, right now, I'm using the 8CB as an example. Argentines teach it and nobody has a problem. Americans teach it and, it seems, everybody has a problem. I just want to know why. Personally, I think the problem is the way it's taught, whereas teachers on this list say the 8CB is the problem and it shoudn't be taught. That's what I want to talk about, but it seems like nobody else does. Keith, HK On Wed Feb 13 23:49 , Nina Pesochinsky sent: Keith, You are doing a fine job wasting your own time. If I have not heard of this Oscar and have to google him, that means he is not good enough or famous enough to talk about. :) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nino Bien
That is true, but that is not the original Nino Bien milonga. It came later.The one I am referring to is on Thursday night. At 07:59 AM 2/2/2008, NANCY wrote: --- Nina Pesochinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then things began to change. As the number of foregners increased everywhere, there became more and more of them at Nino Bien. Now it is a boring sitting milonga where the Argentine dancers go to hang out with their friends and see their foreign students. That is not true of the Saturday afternoon milonga ( Los Consegrados). Many a day I was the only foreigner there in a crowd of 250. Rito es la danza en tu vida y el tango que tu amas te quema en su llama de: Bailarina de tango por: Horacio Sanguinetti Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nino Bien
The only people that complain about the foreigners are those who know what it was like without them. The others will never know the difference and have fun anyway. Nina At 08:17 AM 2/2/2008, Christian Lüthen wrote: I think clif hit a very important point, even if his 'ALL foreigners' statement may be on the strong side. Since the overall attitude seems to be anti-foreigners and how they are ruining the dance and milonga's, I think ALL foreigners should stop going to BsAs and that would solve the problem. As far true as it would be if all foreigners all of a sudden would stop to go to - let's say Venice - for comparison. Tango originates from Buenos Aires, no doubts, but without foreigners taking it to the rest of the world and actually also taking it back from there tango would have either stayed small and unrecognized or be long time gone. I mean, they obviously don't enjoy us coming there and spending money, Absolutely true. Sometimes one thinks being a masochist paying a lot of money to travel down to Buenos Aires only to be looked at from high above while being there. so, let's go somewhere where we will be treated with some modicum of respect. Maybe one reason why a lot of americans travel over to TangoMagia-Festival in Amsterdam, Holland, at the end of each year. And why europeans travel over to the U.S. for ie. Portland Tango Oktoberfest or Denver Tango Fest. There's (at least) a lot of high class dancing outside of Buenos Aires. But hey, that is just the old guy from Texas. Same here: just a guy from Central Europe. Christian -- Pt! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger gehört? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dance for success?
The first thing that most Argentine men ask the woman after the first dance is if she feels comfortable. In 12 years, I only heard that from one non-Argentine man. Perhaps, there is a different definition of what success is and it may vary from culture to culture. Best regards to everyone, Nina Quoting Janis Kenyon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Tom Stermitz wrote: Yes, the important thing for the guys is that they feel successful. Like they have achieved mastery of something, and have the knowledge and confidence to lead a beautiful woman into a dance. In tango nothing happens without the guy coming up with an idea and then executing. This is the crux of the performance anxiety problem. And in tango you are expecting him to succeed or fail in front of a woman, which loads it even more. You want to retain men? Leave them at the end of each class confident, with the new ideas well-integrated with things they already know. For a beginner, that might just be walking. The business strategy of teach something difficult so they will take privates, doesn't succeed with men. They'll just quit. Maybe they are cheap; But really they feel unsuccessful and frustrated. Success? Mastery? Knowledge? Confidence? What about being inspired by the music and dancing that feeling? Milongueros dance because the music inspires them, not because they are successful. The problem for so many men is that they are thinking rather than feeling. No wonder men experience performance anxiety. Their memory fails them after all those classes of step patterns that are useless on crowded floor. Men will dance well when they can embrace a woman and be present in the moment. Janis www.ToTango.net/milongueros.html ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Dancing with old guys
Well... if this is so, then I feel really bad for most people in tango :) Nina At 07:50 AM 10/17/2007, Lucia wrote: Hello: dancing well, like all endeavors in the Arts, is an expression of talent. It has nothing to do with age. This inconvenient truth is challenged by the un-talented, with resounding financial success. Lucia Tango Tango [EMAIL PROTECTED] escribió: -That may be true, but what young men lack in experience we make up for in stamina. Neil PS Do young men also lack in syntactic skills? ;- http://www.campaignforrealbeauty.com/flat3.asp?id=2287 - Seguí de cerca a la Selección Argentina de Rugby en el Mundial de Francia 2007. http://ar.sports.yahoo.com/mundialderugby ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Igor's Question: a woman's perspective
This guy says, I'm perfect for you, 'cause I'm a cross between a macho man and a sensitive man. I said, Oh, a gay trucker? [] Judy Tenuta At 11:33 AM 10/2/2007, Tom Stermitz wrote: On Oct 2, 2007, at 10:34 AM, Darlene Robertson wrote: Hello All, ... I have over many years invited, coerced and bribed (with the promise of a date, if you will, for some fellow that actually learned tango) many men to visit our community with the goal of adding them to the Argentine Tango herd. I have grabbed them from West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, Country/Western and my former boyfriend (before Tango became my boyfriend), Salsa. I've given free lessons, cheap lessons and encouraged them to go someplace else for group or private lessons, etc. They're consensus? Gosh, I hope you're sitting down. They didn't like the music. Okay, there, I've said it. Please don't get all your tailfeathers ruffled over yet another discussion about traditional, alternative, neo, nuevo, etc. on me. This isn't about that well-worn topic. Of the 40 or so men, NONE liked the music. They danced the other stuff because it was what they could hear a beat to, or dance to without thinking or whatever. What does that tell me? These guys dance to get laid. The go to hold women. They're doing the same thing many of us single people are doing: they're looking for love. My fault that I didn't find a dancer amongst them -- I just didn't get that right! Abrazos, Darlene Thanks for this Darlene, I liked all your comments, but in particular you make an important point that so many men DON'T LIKE THE MUSIC (at first, I presume). This is strongly related to the other two points: LACK OF CONFIDENCE and RETENTION OF GUYS. I define advanced tango as simple things done well, but that is also a definition of confident tango. We've been throwing around the terms feminine and masculine, and those are useful but loaded terms. A more specific and easier to address issue is to address CONFIDENCE or lack thereof. Yes, tango requires masculine guys, but at the basic level it isn't that these guys aren't masculine. They feel tentative because they aren't confident. Tango requires (the follower requires), that the man proposes an idea, a step a sequence of steps or whatever. This is daunting for the men at first, and the crux of the problem is confidence vs uncertainty. I've taught for ten years, which is important because I've tried and abandoned many things with a specific goal of creating better retention of the men. Women are important, but they have more patience, can learn quickly in privates, and in general have an easier time with tangoat the beginning. Retain the men, and we'll retain the women. In my experience, the single most important driver for retaining the guys is whether they feel confident. Secondly, the foundation for confidence is understanding the music. You can draw a big fat arrow: MUSICALITY = CONFIDENCE = RETENTION = HAPPY WOMEN. Teaching Musicality. So, when I teach I am highly focused on showing the men where the beat is and where the musical phrasing is. Change the music, repeat and rinse. It takes repetition and time, as this is a strange foreign genre to most. Basically, if they don't know the music, then they have to be shown exactly where it is, and how to make their movements relate to it. Musicality is when your energy matches the musical energy, the surge at the beginning of the phrase, the suspension at the end, the flow and wave of the waltz, the staccatto of D'Arienzo, the walk of Di Sarli, the drama of Pugliese. Confidence is when you just know what to do in your bones. I'm sometimes accused of just teaching walking because I present tango steps or vocabulary more slowly than some teachers, but that is a misunderstanding because I'm teaching a MUSICAL way of walking, which some might call dancing. It is no wonder that some dancers like alternative music because they can hear it, move to it be inspired by it. Watch a North American dance to blues or RB. That is the music of our people; it makes sense to us, we can just feel what to do. In fact I use alternative precisely for this quality of creating confidence... Hmmm, I guess I CAN dance. Teaching steps. Steps? Steps don't equal tango; steps are just the things you do once you know tango. This is perhaps why in Argentina you can start with the steps. Culturally, they already know tango, what is sounds like, looks like, feels like, so they just need to know what to do. I know, you have teachers who present lots and lots of steps. This is so typical of new teachers and Intermediate dancers. Let me show you! This is an ocho, this is a volcada, this is a shoe shine, this is a whoop-de-do. They are teaching at the level they are learning, not the level where a beginner is learning. Teaching lots of steps keeps the guys in a constant state of un- confidence and un-ability. It is deceptive, perhaps. They feel like
Re: [Tango-L] No arms?
It is an incredible mistake to teach people to dance without arms. Great male dancers never lead from the chest. Instead, they lead from the embrace, which includes everything. Leading from the chest results in dancers walking like chickens and stepping on the woman because the arms that hold her are asleep. Not to mention annoying the women with a dead, empty embrace. If you don't like holding women in your embrace, then you are right - you do not need the arms. Where did people get these ideas of leading from the chest? I have never heard any of the great masters (Mingo Pugliese, Carlos Gavito, Pepito Avellaneda, and others) to ever teach this. The embrace is what ahs always been emphasized. Best, Nina Quoting Miguel Canals [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Melroy wrote: A while ago, at a milonga, there was a little game. We had to dance with random partners, with just a balloon between our chests! A milonga? I'll be sure I stay away from any milonga run by the organizer/DJ. That aside. I've done this exercise in class to emphasize the importance of having the torsos of the dancers facing each other (dis-association). I've also done lots of exercises of leading with no hands to emphasize the importance of leading with the chest in close embrace. MC. Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Pablo Veron, tango opera
He is doing it on stage, right? Anything goes, as long as the curtain goes up and the audience does not fall asleep. If he did that on a social dance floor, then he would not be a true tango dancer. Nina Quoting Clif [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Obviously Pablo Veron is not a true dancer of Argentine Tango. He is dancing something else which makes him an imposter of a tango dancer. And since he is assisting a non-BsAs Anglo put tango on the stage, again, then he is not a true tango dancer, especially since it is STAGE tango, and in an opera at that. Where is the shame, where is the justice. le agent provocateur ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Who's leading?
If someone had offered me to do a few milongas, I am not sure I would have answered it any differently than this woman. :) Language holds power. Never underestimate the power of seduction (salesmanship, persuasion). This is an example of a failed sales attempt. The man had 2 seconds for a sales pitch and he failed to sell himself and the experience he was offering to the woman, and she did not want to be a woman with him. Nina Overheard recently at a Portland Tango event: MAN: Would you like to do a few of these milongas? WOMAN: Not as a woman. MAN: OK. Thanks anyhow. Igor Polk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A woman. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l - Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Nina critique of Milonga invite, cabaceo revisited
Hi, Martin, Cabeceo is really the only way. It can be delicious and irresistable. the sales pitch must fit the context. The context here is tango - intense and intuitive. In addition to that, tango dancers usually happen to be hypersensitive people. No verbal sales pitch can be as intuitive as a cabeceo.\ I believe that a verbal invitation is inappropriate to tango, unless the person who is asking or who is being asked has a vision inpairment. In that case - may I dance this tanda with you? is an almost full-proof invitation that will result in a yes (please note that I suggested may I dance with you?, instead of woul you like to dance?) Again, if there is a vision impairement, there are other creative things to say to a woman: - My life will be ruine if you do not dance this tanda with me. - I may never dance tango again if we do not dance this tanda. - I had a dream of dancing this exact tanda and the person was you! - If we dance this now, it could be amazing and unforgettable. Etc., etc. Cabeeo is the only way, but if a person cannot see well, the words must be sensitive and poetic when addressing women. It is an ancient wisdom that men love with their eyes and women with their ears. Warm regards, Nina Quoting Nussbaum, Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Nina wrote: If someone had offered me to do a few milongas, I am not sure I would have answered it any differently than this woman. :)Language holds power. Never underestimate the power of seduction (salesmanship, persuasion). This is an example of a failed sales attempt. The man had 2 seconds for a sales pitch and he failed to sell himself and the experience he was offering to the woman, and she did not want to be a woman with him. Okay, Nina, let's digress into a new topic momentarily. My preferred invite method is always the cabaceo, a custom I love, despite the fact that many followers in my neck of the woods (NYC ) are unfamiliar with it, so instead of meeting the eyes of leaders would rather stare at the floor glumly wondering why they arent dancing. Add in the fact that milonga hosts in the US strangely insist on keeping the lighting so dark that you cant see a cabaceo from 10 feet away, let alone across the room, as you could in the brightly-lit BA milongas. (I always wondered why they don't want us to see how everyone in the room is dancing). So, leaders often fall back on a poor alternative to the cabaceo, the direct verbal invite. Please educate me, Nina, what are some examples of quality 2 second sales pitches you, or others on this forum, have heard and accepted? I have experimented with the gallant, May I have the honor of this tanda? To the mundane, would you like to dance?, to the direct, let's dance this one, to the humorous good god, woman, its Disarli, how can you possibly sit this one out?I would like to expand this repertoire, so if you have cant-miss ideas, please share. -Martin Nussbaum http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Traditional milonguero style?
Hi, Janis, Nino Bien has never been a good milonga for dancing. Most people do not even approach it as a milonga for dancing. We go and hang out with friends and visit instead. For me, it is a chance to, accidentally, encounter friends from other parts of the world. I alway get excited wondering who I might discover there. Actually, it has never been for dancing, even in 1998-1999 when there were very few tourists. Nina Quoting Janis Kenyon [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jeanne Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted to Tango-A: Negracha and Diego are traditional milonguero-style tango dancers and enthusiastic teachers of the close embrace. Their classes focus on a single aspect of the dance, giving students an opportunity to completely absorb several variations of each movement. Starting with simple walking steps, they gently encourage students to progress to front and back ochos, boleos, giros, and ganchos. Traditional milonguero-style ... with ganchos? Friends escorted a couple from Ecuador to the milonga Nino Bien last Thursday. They said it was 99% tourists. Her exact words were -- que porqueria! Yesterday I went to my second home to dance where I know the music will be excellent with a good level of dancers. The visitor at my table made the observation that two lanes of dancers existed. That's the way it should be. Everyone danced simply with the music. It was a pleasure to sit and watch as well as dance in this milonga. No one did a boleo or a gancho. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l http://www.earthnet.net Boulder's Premier Datacenter ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Germans teaching Argentine tango in the USA
Maybe they became more Argentine than the Argentines. I know foreigners who are more Argentine than any Argentine that I know. It is possible! When you were 20 years old and became fascinated with some culture other than your own, didn't you become more a member of that culture than any person born into it? I certainly did. (For Argentine tango, it is best if you are not 20 because some personality is required). On a serious note, foreigners often make better teachers of Argentine tango because they absorb details that Argentines take for granted. Americans and Germans have been teaching tango in Russia. Some Germans also have been teaching in Buenos Aires for years. Swiss teachers have been teaching in France. And what about Brazilians who teach tango in Buenos Aires and other places? Am I forgetting anyone? My questions about these teachers would be - Can they dance? Can they teach? Did they become more Argentine than the Argentines? :) If the answer is yes, then who cares where they are from?! Also, there are many, many horrible tango teachers who were born Argentine. There are also many, many horrible tango dancers who were born Argentine. Argentine origin can give a nice presentation, but it does not make up for bad dancing or teaching. And my advice to any teacher who was not born Argentine is to say, when they are questioned along these lines, that they have now became Argentine. This usually ends the discussion.:) Best, Nina Am I the only person who thinks this is crazy? There are dozens of Argentines teaching in the USA in addition to hundreds of Americans who teach. Why are they organizing classes for Germans? Is it because these Germans travel at their own expense on tourist visas? Or because there is so much money to be made from weekend workshop and festivals? What can you get from a German couple in two days that you haven't already learned from Argentines or Americans? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Germans teaching Argentine tango in the USA
Now a more seriious reply. First, tango is not lucrative for the organizers. It is a mistake to think that people do it for the money. I can come up with at least 2-3 ways, without thinking about it too hard, how to make more money faster and with less headache. People have to love tango to try to organize anything. Over the last decade, in the U.S., certain cities have developed communities that are large enough to support the costs of bringing well-known Argentine dancers/teachers. As the schedules of these teachers became quite full, the number of the cities on one continent that they could fit into their schedule often shrunk dramatically because their tours became global - they often teach in the US, Europe and Asia - all on one tour. In addition to that, many have standing annual commitments, such as established festivals. There are little budding tango communities in the US with the numbers of dancers whose attendance would not be able to support big events. These communities need teachers and would host those who would be willing to travel there because these cities are often not on the established circuit of the well-known teachers (who tend to return to their established locations). A big factor is how far in advance you have to book the teachers when you are organizing their event. If they are booking a year and a half in advance, then you have to be in a position to make that commitment. Teachers who are willing to travel on a shorter notice often become more accessible. I think it is a mistake to look at the origin of teachers instead of looking at them first as dancers, and, second, as people who may actually have something to offer. Milton Myers of the Ailey company once said in a master class that he was teaching that every teacher has some gem to offer. Some teachers have many gems, while others have only one or two. And they all spill those gems in front of the students in class. Those students who grab all the gems that they see, become richer (and can make better jewelry from their gems) than those who stand around waiting for the teachers with lots of gems, while ignoring those who only have one or two. So the question is not who is teaching. The question is - who is learning? Warmest regards, NIna At 11:40 AM 9/3/2007, Janis Kenyon wrote: Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:08:57 +0200 From: Melina Sedo Detlef Engel [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Tango-A] Dtelef Melina: US-Tour February/March 08 We would like to inform you about our upcoming tour to the USA 14 - 17 February: Valentango Festival Portland 23/24 February: Workshops in Pittsburgh (PATangoS ) 29 February - 2 March: Milonguero Festival in Champain Urbana 3 - 14 March: Classes in New York (Empire Dance Studio) 15/16 March: Workshops in Philadelphia (Tango Hug) There are still some free slots in our schedule, especially during the weeks and after our stay in Philadelphia. Am I the only person who thinks this is crazy? There are dozens of Argentines teaching in the USA in addition to hundreds of Americans who teach. Why are they organizing classes for Germans? Is it because these Germans travel at their own expense on tourist visas? Or because there is so much money to be made from weekend workshop and festivals? What can you get from a German couple in two days that you haven't already learned from Argentines or Americans? Most Argentine professionals who teach regularly in the US are smart enough to know they need a work permit and P-3 visa to be working legally. There are some there now, however, who are working on tourist visas. But then, the organizers never ask to see their passports. Instead, they look the other way and laugh all the way to the bank. I know that Ray Barbosa, a lawyer, went through the visa process this year when he invited Tete and Sylvia and others to teach at his festival in Chicago. They wouldn't have been able to enter the country without the proper work visa after a nine-year absence. Lydia Henson applies annually for visas for all those teaching at her Miami festival, otherwise El Flaco Dany would never have entered the USA. The visa process takes about six months. Any citizen in the US can petition for the work permit after gathering all the required documentation. Twelve years ago I learned that any foreigner working in the US is required to have the appropriate visa in their passport before entering the country. I had to obtain visas for those teaching at my festival in a short time frame. All visas were issued and everyone worked legally for one week. Tours have been cancelled because organizers thought that teachers would be able to obtain a tourist visa. Then the US Consulate denied the request. Once a tourist visa is denied, it is in the records and never can be obtained. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Tango is mystery, not work
Bruno, You are so complicated!:) I never said tango was easy. I said it was simple. It's about the man-woman thing. Every step and every technical detail is about that. Nina At 02:31 PM 7/31/2007, Bruno Afonso wrote: On 7/31/07, Nina Pesochinsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tango is very, very simple. I guess we have to get through all the complexities and engineering challenges first before we can see this simplicity. Nina, I will refrain from commenting the interesting part before. But the last quote is interesting. You are basically saying you have to practice/dance a lot and make a huge effort to understand tango's simplicity. This simply means that it is in fact not simple. If it was, everyone could easily do it, and that doesn't happen as anyone that has tried it knows. Yes, it takes practice as anything in life. You are roughly saying that quantum physics is really easy after you have done a PhD on it. Doesn't make much sense does it? :-) Tango is not easy at any level. But this is exactly what drives passionate persons to it, to be able to learn a bit every time you dance and immensely enjoy it as you master it more and more. Sun Tzu's Art of War was important to teach guidelines and provide insight into warfare. And I doubt anyone with a brain will claim warfare to be a simple subject. The few that thought so didn't live to tell anyone about it. We don't have a Sun Tzu's book of Tango, but we have teachers to help us guide us in our path through tango. These teachers can help us from a purely aestetically point of view or from a more rational one, like the science of having a fit body and mind to dance. This idea of anyone being enlightened by tango gods is naive to me, but I accept that it may be true to some. Yet, their floorcraft has eluded my observation to believe in them. There is no brilliant athlete that didn't work hard independently of how gifted it was to start with. And there will never be a great tango dancer that didn't work hard: mentally and physically. my 2 cents. b Best regards to all, Nina Quoting Igor Polk [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jeff: War is work, not mystery -- old Spartan saying Yes. I am not against practicing at all, but.. Tango is mystery, not work. Igor Polk PS. Practicing what makes a mistery mistery might be much more productive for tango not to speak much more pleasant. Unless you are a sportsman. The problem is and it is much more difficult. Effective practice is possible only for advanced dancers - they know what to practice and how. But beginners need it most. So someone should make a set of excersizes to help them, but not suppress creativity, inventiveness, sensitivity, reaction, keeping the eyes open, freshness of the mind, and so on. Practicing the same move especially with a partner may block all these things especially for talented beginners and intermediates. Or may not. It all depends how it is put. I do not see this issue was addressed before. I do not have an answer, but I know about the problem, so I'd like you to see it too. Practicing often, if not always in the current state of affairs, especially group practice, is about subdiction people to a certain style more than about anything else. So effective tango practice may be conducted only by a teacher who knows variety of tango styles, who is a great dancer himself, who is very sensitive, creative. Other wise I'd advise students to come to many teachers with the variety of tango practices. Igor Polk PS One more comparison between war and art of dance. In war one seeks the final result. When enemy is destroyed, then it comes time for pleasure. In the art - it is evey millisecond of acting that we seek pleasure in. Regarding marial arts, the notion is spreading that martial arts teachers do not actually teach students the art of war. They are carried away with something else. What else could it be? A pleasure in the duel, in every millisecond of it - enjoying spirit and movement. Look what a great kick I did!. What they are doing is nothing but DANCING. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l -- Bruno Afonso http://brunoafonso.com (personal, mostly portuguese) http://openwetware.org/wiki/User:BrunoAfonso (Professional, english) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
