Outlook humor

[Kenneth Porter]

Thought users of 3rd party email programs (competitors of MS Outlook)
might find this article amusing:

"Brown Orifice" Is Only The Beginning
http://www.i-want-a-website.com/about-linux/

Ken
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.sewingwitch.com/ken/
http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/
Kill the Carnivore! http://www.lp.org/action/carnivore/



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Re: ">From" in a message

[Kenneth Porter]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:29:43 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

>It isn't sendmail, it is the delivery agent and only on mbox format.  The
>POP server that can read mbox format should also know how to unescape a From
>like that.

Not sure about the latter. How would you tell the difference between a
line that was escaped vs. one that was originally in that form before
sending? The MUA could make an educated guess based on context, I
suppose, but is there any deterministic way to do it?

Ken
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Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors

[Kenneth Porter]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:44:52 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

>TB! will soon be on Linux.

Cool!

>Which needs to be defined for each editor.  Most editors can't even
>implement anything more complex than a simple search and replace correctly.  I
>doubt they would even begin to consider this.  No, the file open/close method
>is the best because it works with everything regardless of the competency of
>the programmers.

I was thinking that more powerful editors like those you and I use
could implement this as either a core function or in an add-on DLL (.so
for Linux). Stupider editors could rely on a small wrapper app that
does the current job of launch and wait for exit.

Ken
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http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/
Kill the Carnivore! http://www.lp.org/action/carnivore/



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Re: ">From" in a message

[Kenneth Porter]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 22:20:42 +0200, Oliver Sturm wrote:

>Whoa.  You  mean  sendmail  is  actually modifying the _content_ of my
>message?

Correct. Your MDA (eg. procmail) must, because of the nature of the
Unix mailbox format. If you need to send stuff pristine, send it as an
attachment.

(After some thought I realized it's not sendmail that does this, but
the delivery agent that sendmail uses to deliver the mail to your
mailbox. Many sites use procmail for the MDA.)

Ken
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">From" in a message

[Kenneth Porter]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:27:31 -0500, Joe Finocchiaro wrote:

>Thursday, August 10, 2000, 8:19:02 AM, Leif Gregory, wrote:
>
>>From now on,
>
>Using the above snippet as as an example, I'd like to ask if anyone
>knows why this "problem" appears to happen to me so frequently?
>
>Does it happen to everyone else?  Please check that message you recently
>received from Leif and let me know if that ">" appeared in your copy.

I believe that comes from sendmail, and is due to the nature of Unix
mailboxes and spool files. The sequence "From" is used
to denote the beginning of a message. If this sequence occurs in the
middle of a message, sendmail is obligated to "quote" the "From" to
prevent it from being recognized as a message delimiter.

>I think the program is arbitrarily inserting that quote code ">" in
>there, but I can't figure out why.  It's not a quote, and I don't
>think Leif typed that ">".

It's not your MUA (TB), it's actually there in the message on the
server.

BTW, does TB have a mechanism for logging the raw POP3 transactions, to
debug any server-side issues?

Ken
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Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors

[Kenneth Porter]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 11:09:01 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

>What other protocol is there that will work across all platforms?  Every
>other form of direct process control is platform specific.  The only things
>you can count on are the basics on the OS level.

First, does it need to be cross-platform? Would one run an email client
and editor on different machines?

Second, if you've got an email client, you've got TCP/IP, so you could
use sockets for carrying the messages. Additionally, at least Windows
and *nix have some kind of named pipe (AKA FIFO) and I expect most
other OS's have something comparable, so a small wrapper to hide the OS
API details would be all that's needed to create a suitable
cross-platform IPC mechanism.

The real question is the scope of the communication between a
persistent editor server and a suite of editor clients. I think one
just needs new, open, and close signals to the edit server and a save
signal to the client.

Ken
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Re: Communication between mail clients and external editors

[Kenneth Porter]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2000 02:07:02 -0500, Curtis wrote:

>This is the sort of thing I'm referring to Kenneth. Having to close the
>editor every time in PMMail is plain awkward.

I agree; my editor (an Emacs clone) is pretty quick to start and exit,
but I don't want a separate instance to work as a client for different
programs. Right now I typically have one instance open all day for
coding and compiling (it has a nice process window allowing me to
scroll back through compiler error messages) and then launch a separate
instance from PMMail on those occasions when I need to do some
sophisticated mail editing (like cleaning up someone's
grossly-overquoted and misspelled joke by stripping the quotes and
reformatting).

Ideally there should be a standard editor "server protocol" that all
editors should support so that editor-using clients (like mail
composition programs) need not include an editor but can tie to the
user's personal favorite. Currently the only such protocol is to invoke
a new instance of the editor with a filename as a parameter.

Anyone care to propose a protocol, or a forum where one can be hashed
out? (comp.editors is probably appropriate.)

Ken
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Communication between mail clients and external editors

[Kenneth Porter]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 20:37:54 -0500, Curtis wrote:

>>> I have a problem with it personally. Why can't the send action be made
>>> to close the editor?
>SL> How is it supposed to?
>If I knew I wouldn't be asking. I asked why can't it be done. I'm
>actually giving PMMail the benefit of the doubt and assuming that the
>reason why it doesn't work like that is because it can't be done.
>Anyway, if a 'hook' can be used to open the editor, I don't see why one
>can't be used to close it. I'm not a programmer as you know so please
>clarify for me.

One can invoke a child process (ie. an editor) with specified arguments
(ie. name of the message file) and then wait for it to exit. In PMMail
I click on the "external editor" button and the current message window
disappears and Epsilon (a commercial Emacs clone) opens with the
message (no header, though). When I'm done editing, I save the file
(typically a temp file) and exit Epsilon, and the message window
reopens with the modified text.

When configuring the editor, one can specify the command line to use to
launch it, including where in the command line to put the message file
name.

Another approach is to use a DDE-aware editor. (Epsilon is also one of
these.) The client program (eg. TB or PMMail) can send a DDE message to
an existing instance of such a program to open a file, and register
some kind of callback or reply address (I don't know the details) to
register when the file is saved and it's time to send. One could then
configure a hot-key in the editor to send a "send this message" command
back to the mail client. PMMail does NOT implement this kind of
capability, though. Epsilon could in principle be configured to work
with this interface. It can also invoke entry points in user-supplied
DLL's to provide an arbitrary interface.

Ken
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/
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Re: TB vs. PMMail

[Kenneth Porter]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 19:42:26 -0500, Curtis wrote:

>Can PMMail filter messages according to their age,  size and other
>similar distinguishing features?

I don't see those offhand as separate language items, but I do see
PROGRAM. This takes a path to a program and invokes that program with
the name of the MSG file and a path to a results file. The contents of
the results file is then compared to the string in the filter. One can
specify whether or not an exact match (vs. a partial string) is used,
and whether the comparison is case-sensitive.

Ken
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Re: TB vs. PMMail

[Kenneth Porter]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 16:38:05 -0500, Curtis wrote:

>OK, what you should do is go into the account properties and delete the
>templates there. From then on, any new folder that you create will have
>no templates defined.

I think a large part of my problem is the sparse and inconsistent help
(admittedly a problem with many programs). Is this another case of an
undocumented feature?

>I have a single filter for about 30 of my friends and a few others for
>others who send messages often enough to deserve a folder each. I filter
>on sender name. All work perfectly. 

Cool, I'd love to simplify my huge filter list like this. How does such
a filter look in TB?

>I don't know what your problem is. Are you familiar with the 'active'
>and 'manual only' options in the filter rule configuration dialogs? What
>settings do you use?

>From a later posting, I gather that Active means full-text match, when
I thought it meant the filter could be temporarily disabled without
deleting it by unchecking Active.

>I dislike creating filters this way because it's inefficient in terms of
>creating too many filter rules and also it disregards the importance of
>the order of the filters.

Agreed.

>down. I suspect that the filter rules for your friend may be occurring
>below the spam filter in your filter set and hence the spam filter is
>catching them first.

No, I checked for that. The spam filter was at the bottom of the list.
I think the Active setting is what was biting me.

>But if you have to drill down to do filter tweaking the purpose of the
>filter builder is defeated isn't it?

Yeah. The advantage to the builder is in the modality of the regular
filter dialog (which is part of an account's properties), preventing me
from inspecting messages to build a filter from. I think TB doesn't
have this problem.

>Threading.  The folder sorting is adjustable on a per folder basis.

Interesting.

>Using templates EXTENSIVELY. They are really POWERFUL once you can use
>them to your advantage.

I suspected this, but poor documentation limits my use as yet. I'm
thinking I'll lurk the list here to pick up the undocumented tricks
before I re-attempt using TB.

>I'm able to reformat quoted text on the fly, even ones with complex
>quote prefixes. TB! also never reflows text on sending which is very
>useful. PMMails WYSIWYG option is really shoddy compared to this. I'm
>able to adjust how I select text blocks in different ways. On the status
>bar of the editor, right click the word 'stream' and you'll be offered
>other ways of selecting text blocks. Try them. :-)

Again, didn't see how to do this, and found its absence really
frustrating. It's something that's on the RMB context menu in the Xnews
newsreader, which doubled my frustration with TB. Again, something to
remember at the next trial after lurking a bit.

>I'm able to colour code messages after selecting them or using filters

This looked interesting, but I never tried it.

>Quoted text having a different colour from unquoted text is a real
>visual enhancement that I much appreciate.

Another item from Xnews that I find lacking in PMMail.

>which I'm leaving out ... ah yes.. like cookies. Not a necessity by any

I know what a browser cookie is, but not an email cookie.

>Filtering in TB! has more to offer than PMMail. Take a good look through
>those options.

It looked promising, but I didn't see how different tabs related to
each other. PMMail uses a choice of either some simple canned
predicates presented as fields in a dialog or the ability to use a
relatively simple predicate language to create more elaborate tests.

BTW, PMMail comes with a doc giving a few tips on slick things that
aren't documented, and reading this first really leverages a first-time
user's experience during evaluation. TB really needs something like
this to sell among power users with little time to perform an extensive
eval.

Ken
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.sewingwitch.com/ken/
http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/
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Re: Too many windows

[Kenneth Porter]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 13:28:11 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

>Wednesday, August 09, 2000, 12:22:36 PM, Kenneth wrote:
>> One deficiency in PMMail is that if I select another folder from the
>> main window and then select next message from the reading window, the
>> reading window closes, instead of reading the next message from the
>> folder it was originally associated with. I'd prefer to have several
>> reader windows each navigating different folders.
>
>Not true.

What are you doing different? I'm reading your message in my
"Software\TheBat" folder, go back to the PMMail main window and select
a message in the "Software\PMMail" folder, and then back on the message
window select "Next Message". The window closes, rather than going to
the next TBUDL message (there are 8 left to read at this point). This
is one case where I have to give the point to TB, for preserving
separate list context for each reader window.

Ken
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Selective quoting

[Kenneth Porter]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 15:04:47 -0500, Curtis wrote:

>TB! did not originally have this feature. I among others suggested it
>but there was some opposition, by others (I remember Steve Lambs
>opposing arguments clearly :-)), to it's implementation. The best of
>both worlds occurred. It was implemented but made an optional instead of
>a default behaviour.

Okay, Steve, what was your argument against selective quoting (ie. the
F4 function)? (I don't want to take issue with it, I  just want to
understand the issues.) I'd prefer that this be another thing that can
be changed from some global options dialog, so that it's *truly*
optional, ie. the choice of default is itself an option. (Much of the
argument on this list seems to be over what should be the default, when
this can easily be addressed by making the default configurable.)

Ken
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Re: Next/Prev action at end of list

[Kenneth Porter]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 16:03:19 -0500, Curtis wrote:

>KP> (I'd also like to see "move to folder and go to next/prev message"
>KP> on the toolbar (a feature I use a lot in PMMail).)
>
>The 'go to next/previous message' buttons are already on the toolbar.
>The Go to Folder button should be added, yes.

No, no. I mean "move current message to another folder", then
"next/prev message".

PMMail has 3 groups of navigation buttons on the reader window: Each
group has a next/prev arrow, plus one between the arrows to perform an
action without going to the next/prev message. One group (red) deletes
the current message, one (yellow) moves the current message to a folder
selected by popup dialog, and one (blue) is just the normal next/prev
arrows with no other action.

This is handy when reading "unusual" mail that has no associated
filter. I can click on the yellow arrow that allows me to file the
current message under an appropriate folder, and then goes to the next
message. (In normal use all my mail is filtered into specific folders,
and my Inbox contains only unusual stuff from unexpected sources that
needs special handling, so I mainly use this with the Inbox.)

Ken
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Selective quoting

[Kenneth Porter]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:19:27 -0700, Steve Lamb wrote:

>Same reason I detested it in PMMail when they implemented it.  I C&P
>something in a message to something else and then hit reply.  Whoops, the
>entire message isn't there.  The assumption is that marked text in an email
>client's read window would only be used for a reply is simply not true.  First
>and foremost marked text is, in general, used for a variety of things.

Ok, I can see that. However, the frequency with which I use the
selective quote is far higher than my copying text to another app and
*then* replying. As I've said elsewhere, this should be a configurable
default to satisfy our different work styles. (And I've been bitten by
the same thing, but I just kill the composition window and try again
when that (occasionally) happens. Or start a new composition window
with full quoting and then C&P my additions from the botched one.)

Ken
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Recipient selection

[Kenneth Porter]

TB has this notion of "favorites" in the address book, which seem to be
the only ones that show up in the drop-down when composing a new
message. To use this I'd have to check the favorites checkbox on all
the recipients I use a lot, and there are many.

My "other favorite client" instead puts each address in a named "book"
for organizational purposes. At composition time, I can right-click in
any address field (To, CC, BCC) and a popup menu appears of entries in
the address book. The entries appear under submenus named for the
"Books" (eg. Personal, Mailing Lists, Customers, Vendors, etc.). This
mostly serves to organize the entries into small menus that fit
on-screen.

Does TB have something comparable or planned?

Ken
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TB vs. PMMail

[Kenneth Porter]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:49:04 -0500, Curtis wrote:

>On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 12:09:07 -0700, Kenneth Porter wrote:
>
>KP> "No one"?! I'm on my 2nd day of evaluating TB, after being a PMMail
>KP> power user. So far I'm *not* pleased at the amount of work I'm
>KP> having to do to get fairly simple functionality. I *don't* want all
>KP> the verbiage thrown in by the default templates.
>
>Uhm. Delete the verbiage from the templates and forget it?

That's what I ended up doing, but it's tedious to have to redo for 5
accounts and 5 different templates for each. How about using empty
default templates and allowing the user to drag and drop canned
templates where she wants them from a library?

>KP> Filters don't seem to work intuitively.
>Again, I'm wondering what you mean here. Intuitive to me here sounds
>like how PMMail did things.
>KP> Typing a piece of a To: string doesn't seem to be matching. (Do I
>KP> have to match the whole To: string?)
>No. Hmmm, I'm not having any problems where that is concerned.

It mostly worked. (BTW I meant From:, not To:.) I set up a final filter
that drops anything not addressed to me into a spam folder for
low-priority inspection. I set up two filters for friends that drop
mail with their name in the Sender field into their own folders under
my Friends folder. In those two cases their "broadcast" messages kept
falling through and going into my spam folder. Once there, I had to
move them back to the Inbox before I could retest a filter. Never got
that working. (I've since reverted to PMMail.)

>KP> TB also lacks PMMail's "filter builder" tool, in which one selects a
>KP> set of candidate messages and the filter builder creates a simple
>KP> filter based on the union of message senders. (OTOH, TB lets me
>KP> create the destination folder from the filter creation dialog,
>KP> something PMMail lacks.)
>That filter builder sounds like potential trouble but if it worked for
>you fine. I'd rather create my own filters manually.

Not so. Generally one sets up a filter whenever joining a new mailing
list, to send those messages to their own folder for later reading,
leaving the Inbox for high-priority stuff. With PMMail, the first few
messages will drop into my spam folder. I create a new folder for the
mailing list, select a candidate from the spam folder, and then select
"Filter Builder". This brings up the filter edit dialog with the fields
filled out based on guesses from the candidate message(s). (Essentially
it or's the From: fields.) I just change the action to Move to the new
folder. (This is one case where TB is nicer: I can create the folder as
part of the filter dialog, instead of before I start this process.) I
then tweak the filter to match what I really want in the message. (BTW,
the builder was added relatively recently after lots of requests from
users who didn't want to drill down the menus to the modal filter
dialog with lots of cutting and pasting from messages to do this.)

>a) Hit b) Hold down the  key while hitting the reply toolbar button.
>c) Go to the Message -> Specials -> Reply quoting selected text

Found this. Why would one select text and *not* want this to happen by
default? Why the special keystroke?

>Version 2 almost certainly will support the use of an external editor.
>Marck, can you back me up on that one?

Cool. I may return later to try this again.

>been using TB! for just over a year. The things I do with TB! here I
>could never do with PMMail. All that I did with PMMail, I can do with
>TB!. It's just a matter of the features that mean the most to us.

What kinds of things are you doing in TB that PMMail lacks?

I'll probably return to try TB again in a few months.

Ken
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http://www.sewingwitch.com/ken/
http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/
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Re: Next/Prev action at end of list

[Kenneth Porter]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2000 14:58:09 -0500, Curtis wrote:

>It doesn't make sense speaking about one method being more or less
>convenient than another when both methods are available for users to
>chose from.

The key being the words "both methods are available". Note that one
can't scroll off the end of a list with TB, so that method is not
available. This should at least be a checkbox somewhere. (I'd also like
to see "move to folder and go to next/prev message" on the toolbar (a
feature I use a lot in PMMail).)

Ken
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.sewingwitch.com/ken/
http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/
Kill the Carnivore! http://www.lp.org/action/carnivore/

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Re[5]: Two Format Questions

[Kenneth Porter]

Wednesday, August 09, 2000, 1:19:10 AM, you wrote:

JD> Just an apology for the previous message. I thought I'd only selected
JD> a small amount of text and then pressed F4. I then hit send
JD> immediately. I've now set it to confirm immediate sending.

Ah, so that's the magic keystroke. Why isn't this the default behavior
when clicking the reply buttons?

-- 
Ken
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.sewingwitch.com/ken/
http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/

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Re[2]: Next/Prev action at end of list

[Kenneth Porter]

Wednesday, August 09, 2000, 9:52:21 AM, you wrote:

C> Because of this,
C> having a folder disappear when I'm finished with a message list is not
C> what I'd want in TB! for the simple reason that I often wish to change
C> to another folder using  or Navigation -> Go to Folder.

I don't see the utility. My folders aren't in the order I'd normally
read them (I have a fairly complex tree), and using Go to Folder doesn't seem more 
convenient than
allowing the current window to close and opening a new one from the
main accounts tree.

-- 
Ken
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.sewingwitch.com/ken/
http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/

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Re[2]: Too many windows

[Kenneth Porter]

Wednesday, August 09, 2000, 12:17:41 AM, you wrote:

LG> Multiple Document Interface. It's nice (IMHO-- Steve and I already
LG> covered this ground ) for things like Opera and Frontpage, but
LG> stinks for e-mail.

Actually I prefer MDI: I like having the main window show the
account/folder tree, and the list of messages in the
currently-selected folder. I then have a free-standing reading window
of a completely different size (usually bigger than the selection
window).

One deficiency in PMMail is that if I select another folder from the
main window and then select next message from the reading window, the
reading window closes, instead of reading the next message from the
folder it was originally associated with. I'd prefer to have several
reader windows each navigating different folders.

-- 
Ken
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.sewingwitch.com/ken/
http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/

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Re[3]: Two Format Questions

[Kenneth Porter]

Tuesday, August 08, 2000, 6:45:43 PM, you wrote:

JF> No one is going to dump TB because it doesn't do this (especially with
JF> ClipMate so available), not until *another* mail program comes along that does do 
it,
JF> and also does all the other really neat things that TB does.

"No one"?! I'm on my 2nd day of evaluating TB, after being a PMMail
power user. So far I'm *not* pleased at the amount of work I'm having
to do to get fairly simple functionality. I *don't* want all the
verbiage thrown in by the default templates. (Now I know why I always
get these stupid, content-free, "Hi, Ken" things on the top of everyone's mail.)

Filters don't seem to work intuitively. Typing a piece of a To: string
doesn't seem to be matching. (Do I have to match the whole To:
string?) I can't apply a block of filters to a selection of messages
in an arbitrary folder.

TB also lacks PMMail's "filter builder" tool, in which one selects a
set of candidate messages and the filter builder creates a simple
filter based on the union of message senders. (OTOH, TB lets me create
the destination folder from the filter creation dialog, something
PMMail lacks.)

I want to be able to reply quoting just a selection of text from the
original message. Selecting the text and hitting Reply still quotes
the complete original message.

Now I've learned that I can't use my own editor simply to get around
missing features in the built-in editor, or to perform more advanced
composition, without laborious cut-and-paste.

I am not pleased. I expect I'll be uninstalling the eval copy today.
TB is probably a good upgrade from Netscape or OE, but at best it's a
big step sideways from PMMail, with some pretty serious tradeoffs to
get a few features that PMMail lacks. Maybe I'll return in a year to
see if things have improved.

-- 
Ken
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.sewingwitch.com/ken/
http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/

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Next/Prev action at end of list

[Kenneth Porter]

I'm just starting to play with TB after coming from PMMail, and one
thing that's hard to get used to is the action of the Next/Prev
buttons when at the end of a folder. With PMMail, the reading window
closes when moving off either end of the list. With TB, one has to
explicitly close the window. Is there a way to change this to
automatically close the window when the end of the list is reached?

Also, how do I keep the cursor from floating in space beyond the end
of an editor line? How can I restrict it to the real end of the line?
(This option is available, for example, in Borland's Builder IDE.)

-- 
Ken
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.sewingwitch.com/ken/
http://www.harrybrowne2000.org/



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