Re: [Tex-music] adjusting the starting position of a tie

[Terrence Enger]

On Fri, 2011-06-24 at 23:19 -0700, Don Simons wrote:
> I wrote
> 
> >Someone did work out the ossia and it might be in Cornelius Noack's "tips
> >and tricks". If not and if no one else provides a link, let me know and I'll
> >ferret it out. It wasn't easy to do...lots of inline TeX required.
> 
> It's in the MusiXTeX manual
> http://www.icking-music-archive.org/software/musixtex/musixdoc.pdf
> in section 2.18.3. And the example isn't in PMX. This can no doubt be done
> in PMX with inline TeX but it'll be pretty tricky. Your other thought about
> using an EPS could probably also work, but I've only seen that in LaTeX
> documents, not plain TeX; and besides, to me it's unaesthetic to have your
> source spread out over more than one file. I'd suggest trying to use the
> method exemplified in musixdoc together with inline TeX in PMX. If you get
> stuck, that WOULD be a good problem to post on the list. Who knows, someone
> might even work out a simple example based on this posting (hint, hint,
> Olivier). 
> 

Harrumph!


Ideally, we want the following.

(1) The ossia is defined not only in the same file but physically
close to the primary alternative.  For a short ossia, both
alternatives can be visible in a text editor at the same time.

(2) The ossia is written in pmx rather than musixtex.  Well, mostly,
 at least.

(3) When changes happen in the looseness or a system break happens in
the middle of the ossia, the program does "the right thing".


With respect to the example in the musixtex manual, I had to hack the
source around before I could get a result looking like the manual.
Perhaps I misunderstand something, but the code as given does have the
\hsize of the ossia hard-coded; I additionally tightened the spacing
within the ossia.

I found another example in musixtex at
.
This example handles changes in looseness nicely but it breaks
conspicuously if a system break falls within the ossia.


Warning: hand-waving ahead.  

My temptation is to try to write a script to pull ossias out of a pmx
file, typeset them, and then put the whole thing back together.  But
having seen smart and experienced people call this a difficult
problem, I suspect that I cannot hope to accomplish something useful.


Is the gave worth the candle?  What do you think?

Terry.


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Re: [Tex-music] adjusting the starting position of a tie

[Terrence Enger]

On Sat, 2011-06-25 at 13:26 -0700, Don Simons wrote:
> ?? Unless I'm missing something, I can't see anything unexpected, nor why you 
> would expect both to be the same. In Ex 1 the tie on the e curves down by 
> default and the one on c curves up as you coded. Down-ties start below center 
> and go down from there, and vice versa, and you haven't tweaked any vertical 
> positions. In the second example the curve directions (and default starting 
> heights along with them) are reversed, consistent your tweaks,
> 
> --Don

Silly me, I was confusing which tie is which in the first example.  I
apologize for having bothered the list with this.

Terry.


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Re: [Tex-music] adjusting the starting position of a tie

[Don Simons]

?? Unless I'm missing something, I can't see anything unexpected, nor why you 
would expect both to be the same. In Ex 1 the tie on the e curves down by 
default and the one on c curves up as you coded. Down-ties start below center 
and go down from there, and vice versa, and you haven't tweaked any vertical 
positions. In the second example the curve directions (and default starting 
heights along with them) are reversed, consistent your tweaks,

--Don

>-Original Message-
>From: tex-music-boun...@tug.org [mailto:tex-music-boun...@tug.org] On Behalf Of
>Terrence Enger
>Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 5:18 AM
>To: tex-music@tug.org
>Subject: [Tex-music] adjusting the starting position of a tie
>
>Greetings,
>
>I am somewhat confused, and I wonder whether I am misunderstanding something or
>whether I have found a bug.
>
>In the appended pmx source and attached resulting pdf, the second way of 
>coding the
>two chords gives the result I expected (well, I exaggerate the offset of the 
>tie from the C
>just to make it obvious), but I expected the first way to give the same 
>result.  Hunh?  (I
>trust that you are really impressed by my eloquence .)
>
>For the terminally curious, I attach an image of the part of the manuscript 
>which led me
>into this situation.
>
>Thank you for your help,
>Terry.
>
>
> source code  % --
>---
>%
>% looking at adjusting the starting point of a tie % % 
>
>-
>%
>% nstaves,noinst,mtrnuml,mtrdenl,mtrnump,mtrdenp,xmtrnum0,isig,
> 1   1  2   40  00   -3
>%
>% npages,nsyst,musicsize,fracindent
>0  1 200.0
>
>t
>./
>Abep
>% use postscript type K slurs, ties, and hairpins Ap
>
>% === m. 040, first way
>(3u b44u  {4  ze- {5u+0+3 zc (6  zb  an+u )3 ze }4 zc }5 zan )6 /
>
>% === m. 040, second way
>(3u b44u  {4u ze- {5d+0+3 zc (6 zb  an+u )3 ze }4 zc }5 zan )6 /
>




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Re: [Tex-music] adjusting the starting position of a tie

[Don Simons]

I wrote

>Someone did work out the ossia and it might be in Cornelius Noack's "tips
>and tricks". If not and if no one else provides a link, let me know and
I'll
>ferret it out. It wasn't easy to do...lots of inline TeX required.

It's in the MusiXTeX manual
http://www.icking-music-archive.org/software/musixtex/musixdoc.pdf
in section 2.18.3. And the example isn't in PMX. This can no doubt be done
in PMX with inline TeX but it'll be pretty tricky. Your other thought about
using an EPS could probably also work, but I've only seen that in LaTeX
documents, not plain TeX; and besides, to me it's unaesthetic to have your
source spread out over more than one file. I'd suggest trying to use the
method exemplified in musixdoc together with inline TeX in PMX. If you get
stuck, that WOULD be a good problem to post on the list. Who knows, someone
might even work out a simple example based on this posting (hint, hint,
Olivier). 

--Don


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Re: [Tex-music] adjusting the starting position of a tie

[Don Simons]

I wrote

>Read... says that if individual chord notes are tied, then draw the
>individual ties, and if there are more than two of them, the outer ones
>should curve oppositely. But if any notes of successive chords are slurred,
>then only one slur should be drawn, either above or below the chord. 

Sorry, I'm afraid I misrepresented what Read said. And every time I read it
I see different subtleties. My latest reading, with caps for emphasis, is

1. If chords move IN PARALLEL, only one slur mark is needed.
2.When one or more notes are tied and the chords are connected with A slur,
the tieS loop in the opposite direction from the slur. He gives 6 examples
where one or two notes are tied and the chords are connected by a single
slur curved oppositely from the tie(s). 

So I would infer from the examples in #2 that (a) rule #1 is NOT restricted
to purely parallel motion, even though he gives no example where no notes
are common and tied but some move by different intervals than others, and
(b) if two notes are tied the two ties should curve in the same direction.
One might even infer that if more than two notes are tied, all the ties
should curve the same way, but no examples confirm that.

--Don


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Re: [Tex-music] adjusting the starting position of a tie

[Terrence Enger]

On Fri, 2011-06-24 at 08:30 -0700, Don Simons wrote:
> Terry--
> 
> Someone did work out the ossia and it might be in Cornelius Noack's "tips
> and tricks". If not and if no one else provides a link, let me know and I'll
> ferret it out. It wasn't easy to do...lots of inline TeX required.

I do not see it in the TOC of his tutorial under the heading Tips and
Tricks, but the section PMX and LaTeX talks--for a different
purpose--about creating encapsulated postscript from the pmx and then
including the result as a graphic in a LaTeX document.  This is well
beyond my current knowledge, but I imagine that getting the alignment
right will be fiddly (which is okay) and subject to breakage whenever
anything changes (which I think is much less okay).

Which technique do you think would be easier to do in the first place,
and which would be easier to maintain through changes?

> 
> On the slurs and ties in chords, I certainly respect both Grieg's intentions
> and Jean-Pierre's more realistic view. But there's a third way of looking at
> the question, from the standpoint of "accepted typesetting practice,"
> whatever that means. Many folks on this list swear by Gardner Read's "Music
> Notation", and quite coincidentally, I had an interchange with Cornelius
> about this very question within the week, which prompted me to see what Read
> had to say. He says that if individual chord notes are tied, then draw the
> individual ties, and if there are more than two of them, the outer ones
> should curve oppositely. But if any notes of successive chords are slurred,
> then only one slur should be drawn, either above or below the chord. It's
> obvious from your tiff that Grieg didn't follow that advice.

I'll see if my library can find a copy.

Meanwhile, I am finding some of Grieg's eccentricities of notation quite
charming.  At least until he took a pencil to it, the writing is very
clear.


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Re: [Tex-music] adjusting the starting position of a tie

[Don Simons]

Terry--

Someone did work out the ossia and it might be in Cornelius Noack's "tips
and tricks". If not and if no one else provides a link, let me know and I'll
ferret it out. It wasn't easy to do...lots of inline TeX required.

On the slurs and ties in chords, I certainly respect both Grieg's intentions
and Jean-Pierre's more realistic view. But there's a third way of looking at
the question, from the standpoint of "accepted typesetting practice,"
whatever that means. Many folks on this list swear by Gardner Read's "Music
Notation", and quite coincidentally, I had an interchange with Cornelius
about this very question within the week, which prompted me to see what Read
had to say. He says that if individual chord notes are tied, then draw the
individual ties, and if there are more than two of them, the outer ones
should curve oppositely. But if any notes of successive chords are slurred,
then only one slur should be drawn, either above or below the chord. It's
obvious from your tiff that Grieg didn't follow that advice.

--Don


>-Original Message-
>From: tex-music-boun...@tug.org [mailto:tex-music-boun...@tug.org] On
Behalf Of
>Terrence Enger
>Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 8:05 AM
>To: tex-music@tug.org
>Subject: Re: [Tex-music] adjusting the starting position of a tie
>
>On Fri, 2011-06-24 at 15:26 +0200, Jean-Pierre Coulon wrote:
>> On Fri, 24 Jun 2011, Terrence Enger wrote:
>>
>> > For the terminally curious, I attach an image of the part of the
>> > manuscript which led me into this situation.
>>
>> I cannot answer, but may I express a personal opinion?
>
>Of course.
>
>>
>> You have 2 slurs and 2 ties. For the musician who reads the piece it is
rather
>> difficult to rapidly play each one correctly.
>>
>> Therefore I think you should notate the ties only. Due to the rather
legato
>> character of this piece the average musican
>
>
>
>My spell checker objects, but that's how Deral Johnson
><http://thewholenote.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=4837:
deral-
>johnson&catid=102:wholenote-blog&Itemid=222> used to say it, so I like it.
Especially
>when he was accusing us of being mechanical or inattentive: "Come on, you
>musicans!"
>
>I remember being in a conversation with him in a corridor.  An
>undergraduate--oh-so-young, oh-so-sweet, oh-so-timid--came up and asked
>if she could bother him.  His response, in high dudgeon, was "Absolutely
>not."  But then, with the utmost graciousness, he added "But I would be
>*delighted* were you to interrupt."
>
>
>
>> will certainly guess that the
>> "changing" notes must be played legato.
>
>Just for reference, the manuscript in question is
><http://erato.uvt.nl/files/imglnks/usimg/b/b1/IMSLP28202-PMLP61902-
>Grieg_Andante_con_moto_EG_116.pdf>.
>
>I have been trying quite hard to follow the manuscript closely.  I do
>not know of any printed version of this music; google keeps leading me
>back to the manuscript image from which I am working.  (There is,
>however, a commercial recording.  Now if my latest customer will just
>get around to paying that last big invoice ... )
>
>I have divided purposes here (even beyond learning the typesetting).  I
>think I would like to try playing the piece.  (I have roped in a
>cellist, looking for a violinist, am somewhat worried that our pianist
>(yikes, that's me!) may not be up to the job.)  Meanwhile, I hope to
>have something worth contributing back to imslp.org.  For this last
>purpose, I think faithfulness to the original trumps practicality.
>
>An important upcoming decision is the treatment of Grieg's pencilled-in
>revisions.  Especially in the last three measures, they are quite thick
>upon the page.  If I can figure out how to do an "ossia" in pmx, then I
>can punt the decision to the reader by entering the music both ways.
>
>So, I guess I am saying that I shall see it as an accomplishment if I
>can reach the point where practicality is relevant.  It is by no means
>clear that I shall persist that far.
>
>Sigh.
>
>
>
>
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>http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/tex-music


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Re: [Tex-music] adjusting the starting position of a tie

[Terrence Enger]

On Fri, 2011-06-24 at 15:26 +0200, Jean-Pierre Coulon wrote:
> On Fri, 24 Jun 2011, Terrence Enger wrote:
> 
> > For the terminally curious, I attach an image of the part of the
> > manuscript which led me into this situation.
> 
> I cannot answer, but may I express a personal opinion?

Of course.

> 
> You have 2 slurs and 2 ties. For the musician who reads the piece it is 
> rather 
> difficult to rapidly play each one correctly.
> 
> Therefore I think you should notate the ties only. Due to the rather legato 
> character of this piece the average musican 



My spell checker objects, but that's how Deral Johnson

 used to say it, so I like it.  Especially when he was accusing us of being 
mechanical or inattentive: "Come on, you musicans!"

I remember being in a conversation with him in a corridor.  An
undergraduate--oh-so-young, oh-so-sweet, oh-so-timid--came up and asked
if she could bother him.  His response, in high dudgeon, was "Absolutely
not."  But then, with the utmost graciousness, he added "But I would be
*delighted* were you to interrupt."



> will certainly guess that the 
> "changing" notes must be played legato.

Just for reference, the manuscript in question is
.

I have been trying quite hard to follow the manuscript closely.  I do
not know of any printed version of this music; google keeps leading me
back to the manuscript image from which I am working.  (There is,
however, a commercial recording.  Now if my latest customer will just
get around to paying that last big invoice ... )

I have divided purposes here (even beyond learning the typesetting).  I
think I would like to try playing the piece.  (I have roped in a
cellist, looking for a violinist, am somewhat worried that our pianist
(yikes, that's me!) may not be up to the job.)  Meanwhile, I hope to
have something worth contributing back to imslp.org.  For this last
purpose, I think faithfulness to the original trumps practicality.

An important upcoming decision is the treatment of Grieg's pencilled-in
revisions.  Especially in the last three measures, they are quite thick
upon the page.  If I can figure out how to do an "ossia" in pmx, then I
can punt the decision to the reader by entering the music both ways.

So, I guess I am saying that I shall see it as an accomplishment if I
can reach the point where practicality is relevant.  It is by no means
clear that I shall persist that far.

Sigh.




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Re: [Tex-music] adjusting the starting position of a tie

[Terrence Enger]

On Fri, 2011-06-24 at 15:13 +0200, Stanislav Kneifl wrote:
> Hi Terry,
> 
> could you show me the TeX source?

Here it is.  Harrumph, that would have been more useful to send with my
question than the manuscript image that I attached.  Sigh.

I have fudged the 8th line to allow for using a newer version of pmx.  I
append both the tex generated from new pmxall and fudged and the tex
generated from pmxab.  They look very similar to me.

Thank you for your help,
Terry.

== generated .tex (pmxall and fudged) ==
%
%
% m040b.tex
%

\input musixtex
\input pmx
\input musixmad%\setmaxslurs{24}\setmaxinstruments{24}%
\input musixps
\normalmusicsize%
\nopagenumbers
\tracingstats=2\relax
\hsize=524pt
\vsize740pt
\def\nbinstruments{1}
\setstaffs11
\setclef10
\setname1{ }
\generalsignature{-3}%
\parindent 0pt
\elemskip1pt\afterruleskip1.000pt\beforeruleskip0pt\relax
\stafftopmarg0pt\staffbotmarg5\Interligne\interstaff{10}\relax
\nostartrule
\readmod{m040b}
\startmuflex\startpiece\addspace\afterruleskip%
\bigaccid%
\global\parskip 0pt plus 12\Interligne minus 99\Interligne%
\def\upstrut{\znotes&\zcharnote{\upamt}{~}\en}%
\Nosluradjust\Notieadjust\nohalfties
\znotes\zcharnote{16}{\titles{2.0}{}{0}{}{0}{}{0}}\en%
% Bar count 1
\starteq%
\pnotes{2.83}\isu0{'b}{.8}\tieforisd\islurd1{`e}\tieforisu\isu2c{3.2}%
\islurd3b\zq e\rq c\zq b\qu{'b}\tslur0a\tieforts\tslur1{`e}%
\tieforts\tslur2c\tslur3a\zq e\zq c\bigna a\zq a\na{'a}\qu a\en%
% Bar count 2
\alaligne
\pnotes{2.83}\isu0{'b}{.8}\tieforisu\isu1{`e}{.2}\tieforisd\isd2c{3.0}%
\islurd3b\zq e\rq c\zq b\qu{'b}\tslur0a\tieforts\tslur1{`e}%
\tieforts\tslur2c\tslur3a\zq e\zq c\bigna a\zq a\na{'a}\qu a\en%
\Endpiece
\vfill\eject\endmuflex
\bye
== generated .tex (pmxab) ==
%
%
% m040c.tex
%

\input musixtex
\input pmx
\input musixmad
\input musixps
\normalmusicsize%
\nopagenumbers
\tracingstats=2\relax
\hsize=524pt
\vsize740pt
\def\nbinstruments{1}
\setstaffs11
\setclef10
\setname1{ }
\generalsignature{-3}%
\parindent 0pt
\elemskip1pt\afterruleskip1.000pt\beforeruleskip0pt\relax
\stafftopmarg0pt\staffbotmarg5\Interligne\interstaff{10}\relax
\nostartrule
\readmod{m040c}
\startmuflex\startpiece\addspace\afterruleskip%
\bigaccid%
\global\parskip 0pt plus 12\Interligne minus 99\Interligne%
\def\upstrut{\znotes&\zcharnote{\upamt}{~}\en}%
\Nosluradjust\Notieadjust\nohalfties
\znotes\zcharnote{16}{\titles{2.0}{}{0}{}{0}{}{0}}\en%
% Bar count 1
\starteq%
\pnotes{2.83}\isu0{'b}{.8}\tieforisd\islurd1{`e}\tieforisu\isu2c{3.2}%
\islurd3b\zq e\rq c\zq b\qu{'b}\tslur0a\tieforts\tslur1{`e}%
\tieforts\tslur2c\tslur3a\zq e\zq c\bigna a\zq a\na{'a}\qu a\en%
% Bar count 2
\alaligne
\pnotes{2.83}\isu0{'b}{.8}\tieforisu\isu1{`e}{.2}\tieforisd\isd2c{3.0}%
\islurd3b\zq e\rq c\zq b\qu{'b}\tslur0a\tieforts\tslur1{`e}%
\tieforts\tslur2c\tslur3a\zq e\zq c\bigna a\zq a\na{'a}\qu a\en%
\Endpiece
\vfill\eject\endmuflex
\bye


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Re: [Tex-music] adjusting the starting position of a tie

[Jean-Pierre Coulon]

On Fri, 24 Jun 2011, Terrence Enger wrote:


For the terminally curious, I attach an image of the part of the
manuscript which led me into this situation.


I cannot answer, but may I express a personal opinion?

You have 2 slurs and 2 ties. For the musician who reads the piece it is rather 
difficult to rapidly play each one correctly.


Therefore I think you should notate the ties only. Due to the rather legato 
character of this piece the average musican will certainly guess that the 
"changing" notes must be played legato.


Regards,
--
Jean-Pierre Coulon  cou...@obs-nice.fr
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Re: [Tex-music] adjusting the starting position of a tie

[Stanislav Kneifl]

Hi Terry,

could you show me the TeX source?

Stanislav.

Terrence Enger wrote:

Greetings,

I am somewhat confused, and I wonder whether I am misunderstanding
something or whether I have found a bug.

In the appended pmx source and attached resulting pdf, the second
way of coding the two chords gives the result I expected (well, I
exaggerate the offset of the tie from the C just to make it obvious),
but I expected the first way to give the same result.  Hunh?  (I
trust that you are really impressed by my eloquence.)

For the terminally curious, I attach an image of the part of the
manuscript which led me into this situation.

Thank you for your help,
Terry.


 source code 
% -
%
% looking at adjusting the starting point of a tie
%
% -
%
% nstaves,noinst,mtrnuml,mtrdenl,mtrnump,mtrdenp,xmtrnum0,isig,
  1   1  2   40  00   -3
%
% npages,nsyst,musicsize,fracindent
 0  1 200.0

t
./
Abep
% use postscript type K slurs, ties, and hairpins
Ap

% === m. 040, first way
 (3u b44u  {4  ze- {5u+0+3 zc (6  zb  an+u )3 ze }4 zc }5 zan )6 /

% === m. 040, second way
 (3u b44u  {4u ze- {5d+0+3 zc (6 zb  an+u )3 ze }4 zc }5 zan )6 /


   



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