Re: [Texascavers] RE: 2008 NSS Convention

[Nico Escamilla]

I'm curious David, why would you want a Sten if you're not gonna take it
underground?
Nico


On 7/10/08, Minton, Mark  wrote:
>
>David Locklear said:
>
> >The convention should give you a semi-impression of what is supposed to
> happen in Kerrville in just 12 months. Except the event in Kerrville is
> going to be twice as big.  Right?
>
>   I suspect the 2009 NSS/ICS will be considerably more than twice as
> big as this year's Convention.  From everything I've heard, there will be
> relatively few people in Florida.  Travel expenses, summer heat, lack of a
> traditionally known dry caving area, etc. all seem to have discouraged a lot
> of people from going.  In 2009 there will be a centrally located NSS
> convention coupled with an international event.  It could be huge.
>
> Mark Minton
>

[Texascavers] FW: RE: Music in Caves 2

[Minton, Mark]

 From Ediger.  Even though he says it happened in the '70's, I wouldn't be 
surprised if this wasn't similar to what they say about the '60's:  If you can 
remember it, you weren't there.  ;-)

Mark Minton



From: Gill Ediger
Sent: Thu 7/10/2008 10:15 PM
To: Minton, Mark
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] RE: Music in Caves 2


It was Rick Wakeman. My memory has been clouded. One problem is that 
we went to San Antonio on separate occasions to see both Rick 
Wakeman  and Jethro Tull--in the same auditorium. Wakeman played 
Journey there and I confused it with Tull. Please send CaveTex a note 
correcting that oversight.

--Ediger

At 04:42 PM 7/10/2008, you wrote:

Gill,

>The musical bill-of-fare was Jethro Tull's "Journey to the Center 
of the Earth"


  I was a big Jethro Tull fan, but I've never heard of that 
one.  Neither has  
and .  Maybe it was 
someone else?  Rick Wakeman of Yes had an album by that name.


Mark Minton

Re: [Texascavers] Journey to the Center of the Earth

[Gill Ediger]

At 06:12 PM 7/10/2008, Mixon Bill wrote:

Speaking (so to speak) of "Journey to the Center of the Earth," I see
advertised in the newpaper a 3-D movie with that title, "opening
nationwide." Is that sure to be a turkey, or what?


Maybe it'd be better for um if they delayed the opening of it 'til 
Thanksgiving.


--Ediger



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[Texascavers] Journey to the Center of the Earth

[Mixon Bill]

Great story, Steele.

I just looked at the trailer for the movie (at journeymovie.com),  
which it turns out I had seen sometime before. Not much resemblance to  
the book, although there are dinosaurs, an underground sea, and lava.  
A man and two children (well, teenagers). -- Mixon

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[Texascavers] A former Journey to the Center of the Earth effort

[speleosteele]

Here's a story for you all.

A few days after Christmas 1993 I got a phone call from a man who said he was a 
producer with Disney films. I thought some caving friend of mine was putting me 
on, like I've done a time or two (like the time Rick Bridges was on TV talking 
about Lechuguilla, so I called him and in my best fake French accent told him 
it was Jacques Costeau, and "we should do zee projects togezer.") Anyhow, this 
guy said that Disney had a script and an approved budget and they were going to 
make another Journey to the Center of the Earth. Their premise was that the 
Jules Verne story had happened, and now modern cavers were going to go back. It 
was to be a new story, not the same one. They invited me to come to LA and 
bring a duffel of caving gear, slides, and ideas of what sorts of gadgets 
cavers in the future might use. So I took them up on it and went to LA a couple 
of weeks later.

The morning I was to meet at the Disney studios was the morning of the 
Northridge Earthquake. It happened in the wee hours of the morning. I was 
staying in well known cavers Matt Oliphant and Nancy Pistole's guest house 
behind Matt's parent's house on the north end of the LA basin. I didn't know 
what to do about the scheduled meeting at the Disney studios. The phones were 
out. So I picked my way around closed roads and made it to the studio in 
Burbank, which was closed. Eventually I managed to get through to an associate 
producer and we planned to meet at the director's home in Burbank later the 
next day.

The director's (Charlie Haid) chimney on the side of his house was laying flat 
in his yard. For several hours I met with him, two producers, a set designer 
from England (who had designed the sets for the movie Willow), and a couple of 
other people. I showed them gear, slides of Huautla, Cheve, Golondrinas, Honey 
Creek, etc., and entertained them with caving stories. They got me to speculate 
about what cavers of the future might have, like lightweight lights with very 
bright beams (this was pre-LEDs), radio headsets in helmets like in Sylvester 
Stallone's movie Cliffhanger, and so on.

The movie was a go and they started planning locations. They were in constant 
touch with me and offered to hire me away from my job for one year. I named a 
price, which I thought they would think would was too high ($250K) and they 
agreed to it. They let me read their script and I told them there were lots of 
things that cavers would scoff at. They let me re-write it to the point that I 
thought cavers would like it.  I still have a copy of that script.  I've 
thought about donating it for the TCMA auction.

Then the whole project fell through when Disney president Frank Wells, who had 
climbed the Seven Summits, and was somewhat the outdoorsman, who planned on 
making a series of outdoor adventure films and had already made Iron Will, 
which Haid directed, was killed in a helicopter crash while remote skiing. The 
Journey project was immediately shelved. About a month later the producer 
called me and said he was going on to other projects and he didn't know what 
would happen to the movie. He said, and I quote, "My guess is that they'll 
change direction and start making goofy animated films instead." Michael Eisner 
got Frank Wells job, and the rest is history..

Bill 

PS - I asked them if Kurt Russell could play me, and they said they probably 
could do that.

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[Texascavers] Re: [Journey to the Center of the Earth

[Frank Binney]

Hi Diana--
I loved the 1959 version, especially when PAT Boone broke off a stalactite
and was karmically punished by having the passage start to flood.
-Frank Binney
P.S.--A Special Effects director friend of mine sent me the following about
the new version:
BTW, my good friend Eric Brevig just got his first full on directorial
job, The Journey to the Center of the Earth in 3D. He has been one of
the top special effects people at ILM for many years (Men in Black among
many others). When we met in 1980 he was just out of college and was
getting into 3D stereo special effects on the Disney theme park shows.
He knows more about this than practically anyone. The reviews on the
movie are so-so due to the script, but everyone agrees that it must be
seen in 3D to really be appreciated.





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Re: [Texascavers] Journey to the Center of the Earth

[mark gee]

That 1959 classic was no clunker. Its still a good movie to watch. It 
definitely has entertainment value. 
Mark G


- Original Message 
From: Diana Tomchick 
To: Mixon Bill 
Cc: Cavers Texas 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:03:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Journey to the Center of the Earth

Mixon, you old curmudgeon! What's wrong with a modern, 3-D version of  
a classic "underground" movie, especially since it stars Brendan  
Fraser! He's way more entertaining than Paul Boone, and the new  
version can't be more kitschy than the 1959 clunker.

Diana

On Jul 10, 2008, at 6:12 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:

> Speaking (so to speak) of "Journey to the Center of the Earth," I  
> see advertised in the newpaper a 3-D movie with that title, "opening  
> nationwide." Is that sure to be a turkey, or what? -- Mixon
> --
>

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B    
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.    
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)


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Re: [Texascavers] Journey to the Center of the Earth

[Diana Tomchick]

Mixon, you old curmudgeon! What's wrong with a modern, 3-D version of  
a classic "underground" movie, especially since it stars Brendan  
Fraser! He's way more entertaining than Paul Boone, and the new  
version can't be more kitschy than the 1959 clunker.


Diana

On Jul 10, 2008, at 6:12 PM, Mixon Bill wrote:

Speaking (so to speak) of "Journey to the Center of the Earth," I  
see advertised in the newpaper a 3-D movie with that title, "opening  
nationwide." Is that sure to be a turkey, or what? -- Mixon

--



* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B   
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.   
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)


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[Texascavers] Journey to the Center of the Earth

[Mixon Bill]

Speaking (so to speak) of "Journey to the Center of the Earth," I see  
advertised in the newpaper a 3-D movie with that title, "opening  
nationwide." Is that sure to be a turkey, or what? -- Mixon

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Re: [Texascavers] RE: Music in Caves

[Allan B. Cobb]

When I took the tour of St Michael's Cave in Gibraltar, they were playing 
classical music in the cave.  It was a nice touch to a very pretty cave.  The 
cave also has a large auditorium and stage where they have concerts. It would 
be fun to see a concert there.

Allan

[Texascavers] RE: 2008 NSS Convention

[Minton, Mark]

  David Locklear said:

>The convention should give you a semi-impression of what is supposed to happen 
>in Kerrville in just 12 months. Except the event in Kerrville is going to 
>be twice as big.  Right?

  I suspect the 2009 NSS/ICS will be considerably more than twice as big as 
this year's Convention.  From everything I've heard, there will be relatively 
few people in Florida.  Travel expenses, summer heat, lack of a traditionally 
known dry caving area, etc. all seem to have discouraged a lot of people from 
going.  In 2009 there will be a centrally located NSS convention coupled with 
an international event.  It could be huge.

Mark Minton

[Texascavers] RE: Music in Caves

[Minton, Mark]

Gill,


The musical bill-of-fare was Jethro Tull's "Journey to the Center of the Earth"


 I was a big Jethro Tull fan, but I've never heard of that one.  Neither has 
 and 
.  Maybe it was someone else?  Rick 
Wakeman of Yes had an album by that name.

Mark Minton

[Texascavers] 2008 NSS Convention

[David]

The NSS Convention is just a month away.

There appears to be a lot of fun to be had in the vicinity of the
convention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ichetucknee_Springs_State_Park

I still don't know if I can go.  My original plans were to take 10
days and travel the area.  I also wanted to take my daughter
thru the show cave at Florida Caverns State Park.

But if I do go, it may be just a rush trip out there and back by myself,
and possibly on my scooter.

I hope I can at least get a day pass and see the Photo Salon, but
that is a long trip to just spend a day there.

One of the fun things to do at the convention is buy stuff. But money
is tight right now, and the things I want, like a Sten-light, can be
bought on-line.

Is anybody out there still unsure if they are going or not?

On a related note,

The convention should give you a semi-impression of what is supposed
to happen in Kerrville in just 12 months. Except the event in Kerrville
is going to be twice as big.  Right? Afterall, Europeans have more
spending power over here, which should entice them to come.Unless
the airline companies scare them away.

David Locklear

Re: [Texascavers] OT again?

[Don Arburn]

If you can't say it to someone's face, say it around a campfire or  
shout it out loud in a crowded airport terminal, don't post it here.


Don Arburn

On Jul 10, 2008, at 3:39 PM, Stephen Fleming  wrote:


tra...@oztotl.com wrote:
Anyways, I will bet that many reading this have been enjoying the  
caving related bliss of this (caving related) list serve, and I ask  
that we don't go back down this path, yet again..


TS


Where is Locklear and his LED lights when you REALLY need him?

--
Stephen Fleming
__
I'm still running against the wind – Bob Seger


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RE: [Texascavers] Music in Caves

[Fritz Holt]

Most may not think that this is funny but I can see a large group of religious 
souls gathered in a large cave chamber singing hymns when the vibrations cause 
the entire ceiling to collapse. Could this have been divine intervention to 
send them all on their heavenly journey?
Fritz

-Original Message-
From: Gill Ediger [mailto:gi...@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 3:02 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: [Texascavers] Music in Caves

At 02:22 PM 7/10/2008, bmorgan...@aol.com wrote:
>Now back to music in caves. The best I've ever
>heard was the time I went to Fantastic pit in
>EllisonâEUR(tm)s cave, 586 feet of fabulous
>acoustics! I was with group of people from TAG
>that I didn't know. Imagine my surprise when
>several revealed themselves to be Broadway song
>and dance geeks by singing hits that
>reverberated up and down the pit! If I ever go
>back I plan to take a boom box and play
>WagnerâEUR(tm)s Ride of the Valkyries! But come to
>think of it, wouldn't it be more appropriate to
>play that while plummeting into the abyss of Valhalla?

Way back in the '70s I had the honor of aiding
and abetting a ceremony/concert in Snedegar Cave
in West Virginia (now part of the Friars Hole
Cave Preserve). The main cave is a huge chamber
about 10 meters high and 20 or 30 meters wide and
300 or so meters long. Most of the sediments had
been dug out for saltpeter during the Civil War
so the floor was mostly flat. Everyone was
instructed to bring chairs or blankets.

We had several large speakers located both in
front of and behind the audience--which may have
totalled a few more than 100. The musical
bill-of-fare was Jethro Tull's "Journey to the
Center of the Earth" and another long and
beautiful album of synthesized cave sounds and
cavey music (the name of both the French artist
and music I've forgotten) that went on for the
better part of an hour--much of it in total darkness. It was a WOWer.

--Ediger


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Re: [Texascavers] OT again?

[Stephen Fleming]

tra...@oztotl.com wrote:
Anyways, I will bet that many reading this have been enjoying the 
caving related bliss of this (caving related) list serve, and I ask 
that we don't go back down this path, yet again..


TS


Where is Locklear and his LED lights when you REALLY need him?

--
Stephen Fleming
__
I'm still running against the wind – Bob Seger


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[Texascavers] Wikipedia caves - part 2

[David]

Here are a few more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchard_Springs_Caverns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlsbad_Caverns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_Hole_Caverns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercer_Caverns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grutas_de_Juxtlahuaca

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gruta_Rei_do_Mato

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caverns_of_Sonora

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeSoto_Caverns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luray_Caverns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_Caverns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_Caverns

There is probably hundreds more, and possibly every cave could someday be
listed.

The future need of publishing a paper copy of a book describing a specific
cave is
no longer practical.

David Locklear

[Texascavers] Wikipedia and caves

[David]

Wikipedia has become a valueable source for cave information.

Does your favorite cave have its own Wiki-pedia listing?

For example:

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_and_Clark_Caverns


David Locklear
armchair caver in Fort Bend County

RE: [Texascavers] OT again?

[Fritz Holt]

Hey Brian,
Funny you should ask. Yesterday on this network Mark Minton and Allan Cobb were 
discussing Tarbutton's Showerbath Cave which runs under the Blanco River in 
Hays County. I had never heard of it but it sounds like a cave that I would 
like to visit.
I am sure that it must be on privately owned property.
Fritz


From: Brian Riordan [mailto:riordan.br...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 2:12 PM
To: tra...@oztotl.com
Cc: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] OT again?

Thanks Travis.  I know it's always a difficult decision how to respond to 
something that might have offended you.  Sometimes I feel responsible to defend 
my beliefs, and sometimes to just dispell some ignorance or misunderstandings.  
Sometimes I interpret a joke incorrectly and feel compelled to provide an 
opposing view.  Maybe this is a response based on pride, maybe it's desire to 
to feel like I can open some eyes of others, or maybe it's the idea that I 
might be found weak in my beliefs if I don't speak up.  No matter what the 
case, the reasons or the misunderstandings, it often grows exponentially and 
everyone involved either directly or not, end up wanting to either yell or put 
earplugs in.  In addition to the nature of the volatile content, without tone 
of voice and expression, e-mail communications tend to exacerbate the problem.  
While it's sad, I feel that the subject may be best tabooed.

In the end, however, the most important thing to remember is that even though 
we may argue, I still love you... almost as much as Jesus...

*cough*  :D

Ok, but to bring it back to the reason this listserve exists:

I've been trying to plan a summer caving trip to a water cave.  The only one 
I've been to is Honeycreek (which I LOVED) but Kurt Menking has told me there 
most likely won't be any trips there this summer.  Evidently many people 
consider it too hot to camp.  Are there any other caves with ample water 
passage that I could take a few cavers to?  Or is there anyone on this 
listserve with access/authority to a cave like this?

Looking forward to some cool summer caving,

-B



On 7/10/08, tra...@oztotl.com 
mailto:tra...@oztotl.com>> wrote:
Ok, just the other day I defended this list serve because it had been so 
pleasant of a place where topics of caving, and things caving related took 
place.  I defended it to an upcoming leader of a Texas grotto who told me about 
the horror stories he has heard regarding the religious debates, diatribes, 
complete and total off topic rants that fill up the inbox.  Just about the time 
I try hard to defend Texascavers and he actually listens to me telling him that 
every once in a while some good info that might help his growing grotto WILL 
actually come out, this OT subject comes up again and has already spawned a lot 
of responses..  If he has signed on and is reading this, I am sorry I ever 
suggested you join this listserve, the breeders and supporters of these OT 
subjects will obviously never change.

You all may also consider that religion tends to be very poignant no matter 
which religion it is or isn't.  This will hopefully remind you that some of you 
unfiltered and unwarranted beliefs might very easily offend some of your fellow 
cavers.  Why would you want to do that?

Anyways, I will bet that many reading this have been enjoying the caving 
related bliss of this (caving related) list serve, and I ask that we don't go 
back down this path, yet again..  If so, good people, like the upcoming grotto 
leader, will be out of touch with the local caving world because the list serve 
is mostly defunct, and I would hate to see that..

TS




Religion/ re*li*gion, noun
"A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."

-Invisible man who makes things
-Things happening by themselves over an un-monitorable period of time in 
contradiction to accepted laws of physics

Either one fits the bill I suppose.  And from the perspective of the 'believer' 
of any opposing view, the other will appear to be ignorant or simplifying 
things to ease ridicule.

But yah, OT... and once again I'm sucked into it like a black hole...

-B

On 7/10/08, speleoste...@tx.rr.com 
mailto:speleoste...@tx.rr.com>> wrote:
Is this OT?

 Louise Power mailto:power_lou...@hotmail.com>> 
wrote:
>
> As we used to say in East Texas, "Same difference."> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 
> 08:54:52 -0700> From: stefan.crea...@arm.com> 
> To: gprichm...@gmail.com; 
> bmorgan...@aol.com> CC: 
> texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: RE: 
> [Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing> > That's just *one* religion. What about 
> the hundreds of other ones?> > -Original Message-> From: George-Paul 
> Richmann [mailto:gprichm...@gmail.com

[Texascavers] Music in Caves

[Gill Ediger]

At 02:22 PM 7/10/2008, bmorgan...@aol.com wrote:
Now back to music in caves. The best I've ever 
heard was the time I went to Fantastic pit in 
Ellison’s cave, 586 feet of fabulous 
acoustics! I was with group of people from TAG 
that I didn't know. Imagine my surprise when 
several revealed themselves to be Broadway song 
and dance geeks by singing hits that 
reverberated up and down the pit! If I ever go 
back I plan to take a boom box and play 
Wagner’s Ride of the Valkyries! But come to 
think of it, wouldn't it be more appropriate to 
play that while plummeting into the abyss of Valhalla?


Way back in the '70s I had the honor of aiding 
and abetting a ceremony/concert in Snedegar Cave 
in West Virginia (now part of the Friars Hole 
Cave Preserve). The main cave is a huge chamber 
about 10 meters high and 20 or 30 meters wide and 
300 or so meters long. Most of the sediments had 
been dug out for saltpeter during the Civil War 
so the floor was mostly flat. Everyone was 
instructed to bring chairs or blankets.


We had several large speakers located both in 
front of and behind the audience--which may have 
totalled a few more than 100. The musical 
bill-of-fare was Jethro Tull's "Journey to the 
Center of the Earth" and another long and 
beautiful album of synthesized cave sounds and 
cavey music (the name of both the French artist 
and music I've forgotten) that went on for the 
better part of an hour--much of it in total darkness. It was a WOWer.


--Ediger


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[Texascavers] Cave Concerts

[Gill Ediger]

Don't be getting overly sensitive on us now, Corky. This email stuff 
is actually rather trivial business. A little off-topic sometimes is 
good to get everyone awakened again. The few hurt feelings are 
usually only in the eye of the overly sensitive beholder--everyone 
else has better sense.


And I'll bet you a case of ESB that if you talk to Mike you could 
schedule your own concert night at CWAN and play whatever sorta music 
you choose and invite whatever sorta exclusive cavers you 
prefer--there's a wide variety of um as I'm sure you've noticed. You 
could just consider yourself normal and work both ways from there.


--Ediger

At 11:07 AM 7/10/2008, Corky wrote:

Howdy Everyone,
I really didn't mean to stir up the septic tank. I just wanted to go 
to a concert in the cave. Then I was told I couldn't, and was upset. 
Then I heard some of the music and wasn't upset anymore. Getting 
into the frame of mind to listen to the fare offered is illegal. I 
apologize to all for starting this off topic discussion.

Cave Softly and Carry A Big Bowl,
Corky

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RE: [Texascavers] OT again?

[Louise Power]

Travis,
 
If you look at the preceding messages, you'll find that all have acknowledged 
that this belonged on the OT board, but since it started off with a message 
about some "singalong" in a cave, I guess people just didn't look at the 
message board to which they were replying. But as Brian Riordan so succinctly 
put it: "But yah, OT... and once again I'm sucked into it like a black hole..."
 
If anyone has enough strength left to continue this diatribe, I suggest we all 
move it to the OT and leave these nice caver people alone.Louise
 



From: travis@oztotl.comTo: texascavers@texascavers.comDate: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 
14:15:54 -0400Subject: [Texascavers] OT again?
Ok, just the other day I defended this list serve because it had been so 
pleasant of a place where topics of caving, and things caving related took 
place.  I defended it to an upcoming leader of a Texas grotto who told me about 
the horror stories he has heard regarding the religious debates, diatribes, 
complete and total off topic rants that fill up the inbox.  Just about the time 
I try hard to defend Texascavers and he actually listens to me telling him that 
every once in a while some good info that might help his growing grotto WILL 
actually come out, this OT subject comes up again and has already spawned a lot 
of responses..  If he has signed on and is reading this, I am sorry I ever 
suggested you join this listserve, the breeders and supporters of these OT 
subjects will obviously never change.  You all may also consider that religion 
tends to be very poignant no matter which religion it is or isn't.  This will 
hopefully remind you that some of you unfiltered and unwarranted beliefs might 
very easily offend some of your fellow cavers.  Why would you want to do 
that?Anyways, I will bet that many reading this have been enjoying the caving 
related bliss of this (caving related) list serve, and I ask that we don't go 
back down this path, yet again..  If so, good people, like the upcoming grotto 
leader, will be out of touch with the local caving world because the list serve 
is mostly defunct, and I would hate to see that..TS



 

Religion/ re·li·gion, noun 
"A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."
 
-Invisible man who makes things
-Things happening by themselves over an un-monitorable period of time in 
contradiction to accepted laws of physics
 
Either one fits the bill I suppose.  And from the perspective of the 'believer' 
of any opposing view, the other will appear to be ignorant or simplifying 
things to ease ridicule.
 
But yah, OT... and once again I'm sucked into it like a black hole...
 
-B 
On 7/10/08, speleoste...@tx.rr.com  wrote: 
Is this OT? Louise Power  wrote:>> As we used to 
say in East Texas, "Same difference."> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:54:52 -0700> 
From: stefan.crea...@arm.com> To: gprichm...@gmail.com; bmorgan...@aol.com> CC: 
texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing> > 
That's just *one* religion. What about the hundreds of other ones?> > 
-Original Message-> From: George-Paul Richmann 
[mailto:gprichm...@gmail.com] > > Explain the difference between 'illusory' 
forms of religion and> religion? George Carlin had a pretty good diatribe on 
the subject. ;-)> > "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an 
invisible man> living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of 
every> day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does> not 
want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a> special place, 
full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and> anguish, where he will send 
you to live and suffer and burn and choke> and scream and cry forever and ever 
'til the end of time!> > But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! "> 
> --GP> > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM,  wrote:> > What 
do shamanic rituals, holographic medicine, holistic healing, and> > 
spiritualism all have in common besides old hippie chix? They are all> > 
entirely illusory forms of religion!> >> > Sleaze> > > > -- > George-Paul 
Richmann> (513) 490-3100> gprichm...@gmail.com> > -- > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The 
contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be 
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender 
immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for 
any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.> > > > 
-> Visit 
our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
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[Texascavers] Difference chix, healing

[Gill Ediger]

At 11:37 AM 7/10/2008, Louise Power wrote:

As we used to say in East Texas, "Same difference."

> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:54:52 -0700
> From: stefan.crea...@arm.com
> > That's just *one* religion. What about the hundreds of other ones?


Yeah, Louise, you got it: Pretty much all the same, including all 
being just enough alike to hate each other's differences.


--Ediger


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[Texascavers] Religion.ill

[Gill Ediger]

At 10:46 AM 7/10/2008, William H. Russell wrote:
I think any worthwhile form of religion should involve 
caves, but I am not clear on B Morgan's distinction between 
"illusory" forms of religion and the non-illusory forms.  If the 
"forms" are written down in a book and a large church built, does 
this make the forms less illusory?  Please explain.


My own illusion of it is that religion, by its very nature, is 
illusory--it is an illusion the organic and structural forms of which 
exist entirely within one's brain--within one's thought processes and 
imagination. There exists no hard evidence to the contrary--period! 
The concept (quite literally a concept) of "to believe" is that it 
exists in one's head--one believes something to be true usually 
without one whit of evidence but often with a great desire that it 
be. By its own conceptual nature to "believe" is to "make believe", 
to "pretend" that something is true. Whether it is true or not may be 
totally irrelevant--it's the pretending itself that makes it religion 
and makes it illusory. It's all up there in the neurons, no place else.


A sacred cave or a book or chants or a stone circle or church 
building or a concrete casting of a virgin or saint and other graphic 
symbols are not religion within their own right and not illusory. 
They are solid state, truly existing artifacts adopted by or for the 
believers in order to give their ethereal illusions some otherwise 
physical credibility--credibility which cannot be found anywhere else 
within what is popularly defined as religion. Little matter that they 
are mere constructs with no inherent spirit or powers of their own.


That is not to say that religion is not a fine and viable hobby to 
those who choose to engage in it. Like golf or macrame or email 
philosophy or even caving religion offers an amount of socialization 
within one's peer group and can gain an ardent practitioner some 
degree of acceptance and approval that one may not be able to 
get  elsewhere--or think they can't. Getting strokes and having 
feel-good friends are what many hobbyists are after and what hobbies 
are about and that can be a good thing so long as the hobby adversely 
impact some otherwise innocent non-practitioner. Many hobbies such as 
reading novels, watching outer-space movies, and practicing religion 
rely on people pretending that their illusions are real. Yet it is 
important to remember that somebody is always making serious money 
off of those simple pretensions; it's good for business.


--Ediger


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[Texascavers] Illusory forms of troglobitic religion

[BMorgan994]

I apologize, when I used the phrase “illusory forms of religion” I was  
being redundant. I'll tell you what is illusory, the idea that certain topics  
are 
not going to be discussed when a diverse group of presumably intelligent  
people gather around the computerized campfire. 
 
I made a harmless wisecrack about new age beliefs and now those with thin  
skins and thick skulls are up in arms with pitchforks and fire brands. I’m just 
 
glad the old Hippie chicks aren't mad at me, but most of them are too bright 
to  take the bait!
 
If you insist we can loop back like Ediger with 3000 feet of track. As an  
acolyte of Oztotl I’m here to tell you that religion and caves go together like 
 
virgins and sacrifice. 
 
Everybody agrees that everybody can be divided into two groups (us and  
them), so here is the experiment: All you need is a big dark hole full of the  
unknown (frequently known as caves). Into this void some will seek to explore  
and 
illuminate. Those would be called scientists. Others peer in to the same  
dark hole and project their fears and confusion. In their ignorance they 
imagine  
inexplicable monsters within that must be appeased so they chuck in a few 
more  virgins. Oftentimes they feel bad about that, so they feel compelled to  
vigorously assert the validity of their views. If challenged they become irate  
and are soon burning people at the stake and marching toward Jerusalem.  
Meanwhile the hole continues to be dark and empty. 
 
Now back to music in caves. The best I've ever heard was the time I went to  
Fantastic pit in Ellison’s cave, 586 feet of fabulous acoustics! I was with  
group of people from TAG that I didn't know. Imagine my surprise when several  
revealed themselves to be Broadway song and dance geeks by singing hits that  
reverberated up and down the pit! If I ever go back I plan to take a boom box  
and play Wagner’s Ride of the Valkyries! But come to think of it, wouldn't it 
be  more appropriate to play that while plummeting into the abyss of Valhalla?
 
Sleaze
 
 

Re: [Texascavers] OT again?

[Brian Riordan]

Thanks Travis.  I know it's always a difficult decision how to respond to
something that might have offended you.  Sometimes I feel responsible to
defend my beliefs, and sometimes to just dispell some ignorance or
misunderstandings.  Sometimes I interpret a joke incorrectly and feel
compelled to provide an opposing view.  Maybe this is a response based on
pride, maybe it's desire to to feel like I can open some eyes of others, or
maybe it's the idea that I might be found weak in my beliefs if I don't
speak up.  No matter what the case, the reasons or the misunderstandings, it
often grows exponentially and everyone involved either directly or not, end
up wanting to either yell or put earplugs in.  In addition to the nature of
the volatile content, without tone of voice and expression, e-mail
communications tend to exacerbate the problem.  While it's sad, I feel that
the subject may be best tabooed.

In the end, however, the most important thing to remember is that even
though we may argue, I still love you... almost as much as Jesus...

*cough*  :D

Ok, but to bring it back to the reason this listserve exists:

I've been trying to plan a summer caving trip to a water cave.  The only one
I've been to is Honeycreek (which I LOVED) but Kurt Menking has told me
there most likely won't be any trips there this summer.  Evidently many
people consider it too hot to camp.  Are there any other caves with ample
water passage that I could take a few cavers to?  Or is there anyone on this
listserve with access/authority to a cave like this?

Looking forward to some cool summer caving,

-B



On 7/10/08, tra...@oztotl.com  wrote:
>
> Ok, just the other day I defended this list serve because it had been so
> pleasant of a place where topics of caving, and things caving related took
> place.  I defended it to an upcoming leader of a Texas grotto who told me
> about the horror stories he has heard regarding the religious debates,
> diatribes, complete and total off topic rants that fill up the inbox.  Just
> about the time I try hard to defend Texascavers and he actually listens to
> me telling him that every once in a while some good info that might help his
> growing grotto WILL actually come out, this OT subject comes up again and
> has already spawned a lot of responses..  If he has signed on and is reading
> this, I am sorry I ever suggested you join this listserve, the breeders and
> supporters of these OT subjects will obviously never change.
>
> You all may also consider that religion tends to be very poignant no matter
> which religion it is or isn't.  This will hopefully remind you that some of
> you unfiltered and unwarranted beliefs might very easily offend some of your
> fellow cavers.  Why would you want to do that?
>
> Anyways, I will bet that many reading this have been enjoying the caving
> related bliss of this (caving related) list serve, and I ask that we don't
> go back down this path, yet again..  If so, good people, like the upcoming
> grotto leader, will be out of touch with the local caving world because the
> list serve is mostly defunct, and I would hate to see that..
>
> TS
>
>
>
> Religion/ *re·li·gion, *noun
> "A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious
> devotion."
>
> -Invisible man who makes things
> -Things happening by themselves over an un-monitorable period of time in
> contradiction to accepted laws of physics
>
> Either one fits the bill I suppose.  And from the perspective of the
> 'believer' of any opposing view, the other will appear to be ignorant or
> simplifying things to ease ridicule.
>
> But yah, OT... and once again I'm sucked into it like a black hole...
>
> -B
>
> On 7/10/08, speleoste...@tx.rr.com  wrote:
>>
>> Is this OT?
>>
>>  Louise Power  wrote:
>> >
>> > As we used to say in East Texas, "Same difference."> Date: Thu, 10 Jul
>> 2008 08:54:52 -0700> From: stefan.crea...@arm.com> To:
>> gprichm...@gmail.com; bmorgan...@aol.com> CC: texascavers@texascavers.com>
>> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing> > That's just *one*
>> religion. What about the hundreds of other ones?> > -Original
>> Message-> From: George-Paul Richmann [mailto:gprichm...@gmail.com] >
>> > Explain the difference between 'illusory' forms of religion and> religion?
>> George Carlin had a pretty good diatribe on the subject. ;-)> > "Religion
>> has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man> living in the
>> sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every> day. And the
>> invisible man has a special list of ten things he does> not want you to do.
>> And if you do any of these ten things, he has a> special place, full of fire
>> and smoke and burning and torture and> anguish, where he will send you to
>> live and suffer and burn and choke> and scream and cry forever and ever 'til
>> the end of time!> > But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! "> >
>> --GP> > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM,  wrote:> >
>> What do sham

[ot_caving] Re: [Texascavers] Religion is off-topic

[Don Cooper]

Why post OT events on "the list" instead of the OT-list, then?
hm?
-WaV

Keep the earth clean!  It's not like it's Uranus!
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 1:12 PM, Diana Tomchick <
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu> wrote:

> This is a gentle reminder that the discussion of religion on this
> list-serve has now become off-topic...
>
> Diana
>
> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Associate Professor
> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> Department of Biochemistry
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> Rm. ND10.214B
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.
> Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
> 214-645-6383 (phone)
> 214-645-6353 (fax)
>
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>
>

[ot_caving] Re: [Texascavers] OT again?

[Don Cooper]

It is SO G.D. easy to reply to it on the OT list.
I apologize for not having done so.  I cannot imagine why others have not
either.
Its easy enough I guess to just REPLY - after all - someone ELSE started
it
-WaV

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 2:15 PM,  wrote:

> Ok, just the other day I defended this list serve because it had been so
> pleasant of a place where topics of caving, and things caving related took
> place.  I defended it to an upcoming leader of a Texas grotto who told me
> about the horror stories he has heard regarding the religious debates,
> diatribes, complete and total off topic rants that fill up the inbox.  Just
> about the time I try hard to defend Texascavers and he actually listens to
> me telling him that every once in a while some good info that might help his
> growing grotto WILL actually come out, this OT subject comes up again and
> has already spawned a lot of responses..  If he has signed on and is reading
> this, I am sorry I ever suggested you join this listserve, the breeders and
> supporters of these OT subjects will obviously never change.
>
> You all may also consider that religion tends to be very poignant no matter
> which religion it is or isn't.  This will hopefully remind you that some of
> you unfiltered and unwarranted beliefs might very easily offend some of your
> fellow cavers.  Why would you want to do that?
>
> Anyways, I will bet that many reading this have been enjoying the caving
> related bliss of this (caving related) list serve, and I ask that we don't
> go back down this path, yet again..  If so, good people, like the upcoming
> grotto leader, will be out of touch with the local caving world because the
> list serve is mostly defunct, and I would hate to see that..
>
> TS
>
>
>
>   Religion/ *re·li·gion, *noun
> "A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious
> devotion."
>
> -Invisible man who makes things
> -Things happening by themselves over an un-monitorable period of time in
> contradiction to accepted laws of physics
>
> Either one fits the bill I suppose.  And from the perspective of the
> 'believer' of any opposing view, the other will appear to be ignorant or
> simplifying things to ease ridicule.
>
> But yah, OT... and once again I'm sucked into it like a black hole...
>
> -B
>
>  On 7/10/08, speleoste...@tx.rr.com  wrote:
>>
>> Is this OT?
>>
>>  Louise Power  wrote:
>> >
>> > As we used to say in East Texas, "Same difference."> Date: Thu, 10 Jul
>> 2008 08:54:52 -0700> From: stefan.crea...@arm.com> To:
>> gprichm...@gmail.com; bmorgan...@aol.com> CC: texascavers@texascavers.com>
>> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing> > That's just *one*
>> religion. What about the hundreds of other ones?> > -Original
>> Message-> From: George-Paul Richmann [mailto:gprichm...@gmail.com] >
>> > Explain the difference between 'illusory' forms of religion and> religion?
>> George Carlin had a pretty good diatribe on the subject. ;-)> > "Religion
>> has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man> living in the
>> sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every> day. And the
>> invisible man has a special list of ten things he does> not want you to do.
>> And if you do any of these ten things, he has a> special place, full of fire
>> and smoke and burning and torture and> anguish, where he will send you to
>> live and suffer and burn and choke> and scream and cry forever and ever 'til
>> the end of time!> > But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! "> >
>> --GP> > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM,  wrote:> >
>> What do shamanic rituals, holographic medicine, holistic healing, and> >
>> spiritualism all have in common besides old hippie chix? They are all> >
>> entirely illusory forms of religion!> >> > Sleaze> > > > -- > George-Paul
>> Richmann> (513) 490-3100> gprichm...@gmail.com> > -- > IMPORTANT NOTICE:
>> The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also
>> be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the
>> sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use
>> it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank
>> you.> > > >
>> -> Visit
>> our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
>> texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail:
>> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
>> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
>>
>>
>

[Texascavers] OT again?

[travis]

Ok, just the other day I defended this list serve because it had been so 
pleasant of a place where topics of caving, and things caving related took 
place.  I defended it to an upcoming leader of a Texas grotto who told me about 
the horror stories he has heard regarding the religious debates, diatribes, 
complete and total off topic rants that fill up the inbox.  Just about the time 
I try hard to defend Texascavers and he actually listens to me telling him that 
every once in a while some good info that might help his growing grotto WILL 
actually come out, this OT subject comes up again and has already spawned a lot 
of responses..  If he has signed on and is reading this, I am sorry I ever 
suggested you join this listserve, the breeders and supporters of these OT 
subjects will obviously never change.  

You all may also consider that religion tends to be very poignant no matter 
which religion it is or isn't.  This will hopefully remind you that some of you 
unfiltered and unwarranted beliefs might very easily offend some of your fellow 
cavers.  Why would you want to do that?

Anyways, I will bet that many reading this have been enjoying the caving 
related bliss of this (caving related) list serve, and I ask that we don't go 
back down this path, yet again..  If so, good people, like the upcoming grotto 
leader, will be out of touch with the local caving world because the list serve 
is mostly defunct, and I would hate to see that..

TS



 
Religion/ re·li·gion, noun
"A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion."
 
-Invisible man who makes things
-Things happening by themselves over an un-monitorable period of time in 
contradiction to accepted laws of physics
 
Either one fits the bill I suppose.  And from the perspective of the 'believer' 
of any opposing view, the other will appear to be ignorant or simplifying 
things to ease ridicule.
 
But yah, OT... and once again I'm sucked into it like a black hole...
 
-B
 
On 7/10/08, speleoste...@tx.rr.com  wrote:Is this OT?

 Louise Power  wrote:
>
> As we used to say in East Texas, "Same difference."> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 
> 08:54:52 -0700> From: stefan.crea...@arm.com> To: gprichm...@gmail.com; 
> bmorgan...@aol.com> CC: texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: RE: 
> [Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing> > That's just *one* religion. What about 
> the hundreds of other ones?> > -Original Message-> From: George-Paul 
> Richmann [mailto:gprichm...@gmail.com] > > Explain the difference between 
> 'illusory' forms of religion and> religion? George Carlin had a pretty good 
> diatribe on the subject. ;-)> > "Religion has actually convinced people that 
> there's an invisible man> living in the sky who watches everything you do, 
> every minute of every> day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten 
> things he does> not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he 
> has a> special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and> 
> anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke> and 
> scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!> > But He loves you. He 
> loves you, and He needs money! "> > --GP> > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM, 
>  wrote:> > What do shamanic rituals, holographic 
> medicine, holistic healing, and> > spiritualism all have in common besides 
> old hippie chix? They are all> > entirely illusory forms of religion!> >> > 
> Sleaze> > > > -- > George-Paul Richmann> (513) 490-3100> 
> gprichm...@gmail.com> > -- > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and 
> any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not 
> the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not 
> disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store 
> or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.> > > > 
> -> Visit 
> our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com>


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[Texascavers] Keith Heuss

[George-Paul Richmann]

Keith,

Please give me a call at the number below or shoot me an email.

Thanks,

GP

-- 
George-Paul Richmann
(513) 490-3100
gprichm...@gmail.com

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RE: [Texascavers] Religion

[Louise Power]

You're probably right, but I just replied to the list from which it came.> 
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:52:36 -0400> From: speleoste...@tx.rr.com> To: 
power_lou...@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Religion> CC: 
texascavers@texascavers.com; jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net; whruss...@gmail.com> > 
Is this OT?> > >  Louise Power  wrote: > > > > 
The Hyperdictionary defines "illusory" as:> > > > Deceiving, or tending of 
deceive; fallacious; illusive; as,illusory promises or hopes.> > If the 
religion fits...> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:00:03 -0700> From: 
jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net> To: whruss...@gmail.com> CC: 
texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Religion> > Apparently, 
Illusory are forms he does NOT agree with or practice. Nonillusory must be what 
he agrees with...> Either way...it seems like a very unconscious worldview when 
one must diss anothers religions or practices to appease the desire of thier 
ego to be noticed.> > Sent from my iPhone> > On Jul 10, 2008, at 10:46 AM, 
"William H. Russell"  wrote:> > I think any worthwhile 
form o religion should involve caves, but I am not clear on B Morgan's 
distinction between "illusory" forms of religion and the non-illusory forms. If 
the "forms" are written down in a book and a large church built, does this make 
the forms less illusory? Please explain.> -- > William Hart Russell> 4806 Red 
River Street> Austin, TX 78751> H: 512-453-4774 (messages)> CELL: 512-940-8336> 
> -> Visit 
our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: 
texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> > > > 
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Re: [Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing

[Brian Riordan]

Religion/ *re·li·gion, *noun
"A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious
devotion."

-Invisible man who makes things
-Things happening by themselves over an un-monitorable period of time in
contradiction to accepted laws of physics

Either one fits the bill I suppose.  And from the perspective of the
'believer' of any opposing view, the other will appear to be ignorant or
simplifying things to ease ridicule.

But yah, OT... and once again I'm sucked into it like a black hole...

-B

On 7/10/08, speleoste...@tx.rr.com  wrote:
>
> Is this OT?
>
>  Louise Power  wrote:
> >
> > As we used to say in East Texas, "Same difference."> Date: Thu, 10 Jul
> 2008 08:54:52 -0700> From: stefan.crea...@arm.com> To:
> gprichm...@gmail.com; bmorgan...@aol.com> CC: texascavers@texascavers.com>
> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing> > That's just *one*
> religion. What about the hundreds of other ones?> > -Original
> Message-> From: George-Paul Richmann [mailto:gprichm...@gmail.com] > >
> Explain the difference between 'illusory' forms of religion and> religion?
> George Carlin had a pretty good diatribe on the subject. ;-)> > "Religion
> has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man> living in the
> sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every> day. And the
> invisible man has a special list of ten things he does> not want you to do.
> And if you do any of these ten things, he has a> special place, full of fire
> and smoke and burning and torture and> anguish, where he will send you to
> live and suffer and burn and choke> and scream and cry forever and ever 'til
> the end of time!> > But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! "> >
> --GP> > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM,  wrote:> >
> What do shamanic rituals, holographic medicine, holistic healing, and> >
> spiritualism all have in common besides old hippie chix? They are all> >
> entirely illusory forms of religion!> >> > Sleaze> > > > -- > George-Paul
> Richmann> (513) 490-3100> gprichm...@gmail.com> > -- > IMPORTANT NOTICE:
> The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also
> be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the
> sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use
> it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank
> you.> > > >
> -> Visit
> our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail:
> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com>
>
>
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>
>

[Texascavers] Religion is off-topic

[Diana Tomchick]

This is a gentle reminder that the discussion of religion on this list- 
serve has now become off-topic...


Diana

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Diana R. Tomchick
Associate Professor
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
Department of Biochemistry
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214B   
Dallas, TX 75390-8816, U.S.A.   
Email: diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
214-645-6383 (phone)
214-645-6353 (fax)


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[Texascavers] PickUp

[TM Raines]

Hello Cavers,

I'm looking for an older pickup truck, like Toyota, Nissan, Datsun, etc.
Please contact me off list.

Thanks, Terry

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RE: [Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing

[Louise Power]

See previous reply.> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 12:53:02 -0400> From: 
speleoste...@tx.rr.com> To: power_lou...@hotmail.com> Subject: RE: 
[Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing> CC: texascavers@texascavers.com; 
gprichm...@gmail.com; bmorgan...@aol.com; stefan.crea...@arm.com> > Is this 
OT?> >  Louise Power  wrote: > > > > As we used 
to say in East Texas, "Same difference."> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 08:54:52 
-0700> From: stefan.crea...@arm.com> To: gprichm...@gmail.com; 
bmorgan...@aol.com> CC: texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] 
Hippie chix, healing> > That's just *one* religion. What about the hundreds of 
other ones?> > -Original Message-> From: George-Paul Richmann 
[mailto:gprichm...@gmail.com] > > Explain the difference between 'illusory' 
forms of religion and> religion? George Carlin had a pretty good diatribe on 
the subject. ;-)> > "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an 
invisible man> living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of 
every> day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does> not 
want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a> special place, 
full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and> anguish, where he will send 
you to live and suffer and burn and choke> and scream and cry forever and ever 
'til the end of time!> > But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! "> 
> --GP> > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM,  wrote:> > What 
do shamanic rituals, holographic medicine, holistic healing, and> > 
spiritualism all have in common besides old hippie chix? They are all> > 
entirely illusory forms of religion!> >> > Sleaze> > > > -- > George-Paul 
Richmann> (513) 490-3100> gprichm...@gmail.com> > -- > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The 
contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be 
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender 
immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for 
any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.> > > > 
-> Visit 
our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: 
texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> > 

Re: [Texascavers] Religion

[Corky]

Yes, yes it is.

speleoste...@tx.rr.com wrote:

Is this OT?


 Louise Power  wrote: 
  

The Hyperdictionary defines "illusory" as:
 
Deceiving, or tending of deceive; fallacious; illusive; as,illusory promises or hopes.
If the religion fits...> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:00:03 -0700> From: jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net> To: whruss...@gmail.com> CC: texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Religion> > Apparently, Illusory are forms he does NOT agree with or practice. Nonillusory must be what he agrees with...> Either way...it seems like a very unconscious worldview when one must diss anothers religions or practices to appease the desire of thier ego to be noticed.> > Sent from my iPhone> > On Jul 10, 2008, at 10:46 AM, "William H. Russell"  wrote:> > I think any worthwhile form o religion should involve caves, but I am not clear on B Morgan's distinction between "illusory" forms of religion and the non-illusory forms. If the "forms" are written down in a book and a large church built, does this make the forms less illusory? Please explain.> -- > William Hart Russell> 4806 Red River Street> Austin, TX 78751> H: 512-453-4774 (messages)> CELL: 512-940-8336> > -> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> > > > -> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> 




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RE: [Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing

[speleosteele]

Is this OT?

 Louise Power  wrote: 
> 
> As we used to say in East Texas, "Same difference."> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 
> 08:54:52 -0700> From: stefan.crea...@arm.com> To: gprichm...@gmail.com; 
> bmorgan...@aol.com> CC: texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: RE: 
> [Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing> > That's just *one* religion. What about 
> the hundreds of other ones?> > -Original Message-> From: George-Paul 
> Richmann [mailto:gprichm...@gmail.com] > > Explain the difference between 
> 'illusory' forms of religion and> religion? George Carlin had a pretty good 
> diatribe on the subject. ;-)> > "Religion has actually convinced people that 
> there's an invisible man> living in the sky who watches everything you do, 
> every minute of every> day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten 
> things he does> not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he 
> has a> special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and> 
> anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke> and 
> scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!> > But He loves you. He 
> loves you, and He needs money! "> > --GP> > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM, 
>  wrote:> > What do shamanic rituals, holographic 
> medicine, holistic healing, and> > spiritualism all have in common besides 
> old hippie chix? They are all> > entirely illusory forms of religion!> >> > 
> Sleaze> > > > -- > George-Paul Richmann> (513) 490-3100> 
> gprichm...@gmail.com> > -- > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and 
> any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not 
> the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not 
> disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store 
> or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.> > > > 
> -> Visit 
> our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> 


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RE: [Texascavers] Religion

[speleosteele]

Is this OT?


 Louise Power  wrote: 
> 
> The Hyperdictionary defines "illusory" as:
>  
> Deceiving, or tending of deceive; fallacious; illusive; as,illusory promises 
> or hopes.
> If the religion fits...> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:00:03 -0700> From: 
> jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net> To: whruss...@gmail.com> CC: 
> texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Religion> > 
> Apparently, Illusory are forms he does NOT agree with or practice. 
> Nonillusory must be what he agrees with...> Either way...it seems like a very 
> unconscious worldview when one must diss anothers religions or practices to 
> appease the desire of thier ego to be noticed.> > Sent from my iPhone> > On 
> Jul 10, 2008, at 10:46 AM, "William H. Russell"  wrote:> 
> > I think any worthwhile form o religion should involve caves, but I am not 
> clear on B Morgan's distinction between "illusory" forms of religion and the 
> non-illusory forms. If the "forms" are written down in a book and a large 
> church built, does this make the forms less illusory? Please explain.> -- > 
> William Hart Russell> 4806 Red River Street> Austin, TX 78751> H: 
> 512-453-4774 (messages)> CELL: 512-940-8336> > 
> -> Visit 
> our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> > > > 
> -> Visit 
> our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> 


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Re: [Texascavers] Religion, Spiritualism and Cave Concerts

[Corky]

Just trying to stop the bleeding, but I seem to be out of styptic powder.
Corky

Louise Power wrote:

Gee Corky,
 
You ought to know by now that any missive is fair game for dissection 
regardless of the intent.
 
Louise


> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:07:37 -0500
> From: caveman2...@embarqmail.com
> To: texascavers@texascavers.com
> Subject: [Texascavers] Religion, Spiritualism and Cave Concerts
>
> Howdy Everyone,
> I really didn't mean to stir up the septic tank. I just wanted to go to
> a concert in the cave. Then I was told I couldn't, and was upset. 
Then I
> heard some of the music and wasn't upset anymore. Getting into the 
frame
> of mind to listen to the fare offered is illegal. I apologize to all 
for

> starting this off topic discussion.
> Cave Softly and Carry A Big Bowl,
> Corky
>
> -
> Visit our website: http://texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
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RE: [Texascavers] Religion, Spiritualism and Cave Concerts

[Louise Power]

Gee Corky,
 
You ought to know by now that any missive is fair game for dissection 
regardless of the intent.
 
Louise> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 11:07:37 -0500> From: 
caveman2...@embarqmail.com> To: texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: 
[Texascavers] Religion, Spiritualism and Cave Concerts> > Howdy Everyone,> I 
really didn't mean to stir up the septic tank. I just wanted to go to > a 
concert in the cave. Then I was told I couldn't, and was upset. Then I > heard 
some of the music and wasn't upset anymore. Getting into the frame > of mind to 
listen to the fare offered is illegal. I apologize to all for > starting this 
off topic discussion.> Cave Softly and Carry A Big Bowl,> Corky> > 
-> Visit 
our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: 
texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> 

RE: [Texascavers] Religion

[Louise Power]

The Hyperdictionary defines "illusory" as:
 
Deceiving, or tending of deceive; fallacious; illusive; as,illusory promises or 
hopes.
If the religion fits...> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 09:00:03 -0700> From: 
jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net> To: whruss...@gmail.com> CC: 
texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Religion> > Apparently, 
Illusory are forms he does NOT agree with or practice. Nonillusory must be what 
he agrees with...> Either way...it seems like a very unconscious worldview when 
one must diss anothers religions or practices to appease the desire of thier 
ego to be noticed.> > Sent from my iPhone> > On Jul 10, 2008, at 10:46 AM, 
"William H. Russell"  wrote:> > I think any worthwhile 
form o religion should involve caves, but I am not clear on B Morgan's 
distinction between "illusory" forms of religion and the non-illusory forms. If 
the "forms" are written down in a book and a large church built, does this make 
the forms less illusory? Please explain.> -- > William Hart Russell> 4806 Red 
River Street> Austin, TX 78751> H: 512-453-4774 (messages)> CELL: 512-940-8336> 
> -> Visit 
our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: 
texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> > > > 
-> Visit 
our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: 
texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> 

RE: [Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing

[Louise Power]

As we used to say in East Texas, "Same difference."> Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2008 
08:54:52 -0700> From: stefan.crea...@arm.com> To: gprichm...@gmail.com; 
bmorgan...@aol.com> CC: texascavers@texascavers.com> Subject: RE: [Texascavers] 
Hippie chix, healing> > That's just *one* religion. What about the hundreds of 
other ones?> > -Original Message-> From: George-Paul Richmann 
[mailto:gprichm...@gmail.com] > > Explain the difference between 'illusory' 
forms of religion and> religion? George Carlin had a pretty good diatribe on 
the subject. ;-)> > "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an 
invisible man> living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of 
every> day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does> not 
want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a> special place, 
full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and> anguish, where he will send 
you to live and suffer and burn and choke> and scream and cry forever and ever 
'til the end of time!> > But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! "> 
> --GP> > On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM,  wrote:> > What 
do shamanic rituals, holographic medicine, holistic healing, and> > 
spiritualism all have in common besides old hippie chix? They are all> > 
entirely illusory forms of religion!> >> > Sleaze> > > > -- > George-Paul 
Richmann> (513) 490-3100> gprichm...@gmail.com> > -- > IMPORTANT NOTICE: The 
contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be 
privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender 
immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for 
any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.> > > > 
-> Visit 
our website: http://texascavers.com> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com> For additional commands, e-mail: 
texascavers-h...@texascavers.com> 

[ot_caving] New e-mail virus

[Louise Power]

We got the following information in our district e-mail this morning. You just 
might want to keep an eye out on your incoming e-mail.
 
We have received reports of a computer virus threat called Storm Worm. This 
virus is spread via unsolicited email messages that contain a link to a 
malicious website. The e-mail messages typically contain a subject line that 
refers to the conflict in the Middle East, stating that a new World War has 
begun or that a US attack of Iran has occurred. Numerous specific subject lines 
have been reported.
While BLM uses antivirus software, we cannot simply rely on it for complete 
protection. Please continue to be vigilant in your use of the e-mail system and 
ensure that you minimize your exposure to computer viruses by:


Being cognizant of what you are opening
Deleting any suspicious e-mail messages
Not forwarding chain-letter e-mail messages
Not opening attachments from unknown sources
Not clicking on links that may be included in unsolicited e-mail messages. 
As with any unsolicited e-mail, if you receive an e-mail from an unknown 
source, do not open the message. Simply delete the message. If you happen to 
open the message and there is a file attached or a link included, do not open 
the file or click on the link. 

[Texascavers] Religion, Spiritualism and Cave Concerts

[Corky]

Howdy Everyone,
I really didn't mean to stir up the septic tank. I just wanted to go to 
a concert in the cave. Then I was told I couldn't, and was upset. Then I 
heard some of the music and wasn't upset anymore. Getting into the frame 
of mind to listen to the fare offered is illegal. I apologize to all for 
starting this off topic discussion.

Cave Softly and Carry A Big Bowl,
Corky

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Re: [Texascavers] Religion

[John Brooks]

Apparently, Illusory are forms he does NOT agree with or practice. Nonillusory 
must be what he agrees with...
Either way...it seems like a very unconscious worldview when one must diss 
anothers religions or practices to appease the desire of thier ego to be 
noticed.

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 10, 2008, at 10:46 AM, "William H. Russell"  wrote:

  I think any worthwhile form o religion should involve caves, but I am not 
clear on B Morgan's distinction between "illusory" forms of religion and the 
non-illusory forms.  If the "forms" are written down in a book and a large 
church built, does this make the forms less illusory?  Please explain.
-- 
William Hart Russell
4806 Red River Street
Austin, TX  78751
H: 512-453-4774 (messages)
CELL:  512-940-8336

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RE: [Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing

[Stefan Creaser]

That's just *one* religion. What about the hundreds of other ones?

-Original Message-
From: George-Paul Richmann [mailto:gprichm...@gmail.com] 

Explain the difference between 'illusory' forms of religion and
religion? George Carlin had a pretty good diatribe on the subject. ;-)

"Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man
living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every
day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does
not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a
special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and
anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke
and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! "

--GP

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM,   wrote:
> What do shamanic rituals, holographic medicine, holistic healing, and
> spiritualism all have in common besides old hippie chix? They are all
> entirely illusory forms of religion!
>
> Sleaze



-- 
George-Paul Richmann
(513) 490-3100
gprichm...@gmail.com

-- 
IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are 
confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, 
please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any 
other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any 
medium.  Thank you.



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Re: [Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing

[George-Paul Richmann]

Explain the difference between 'illusory' forms of religion and
religion? George Carlin had a pretty good diatribe on the subject. ;-)

"Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man
living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every
day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does
not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a
special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and
anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke
and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! "

--GP

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:32 AM,   wrote:
> What do shamanic rituals, holographic medicine, holistic healing, and
> spiritualism all have in common besides old hippie chix? They are all
> entirely illusory forms of religion!
>
> Sleaze



-- 
George-Paul Richmann
(513) 490-3100
gprichm...@gmail.com

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[Texascavers] Religion

[William H. Russell]

	I think any worthwhile form of religion should involve caves, 
but I am not clear on B Morgan's distinction between "illusory" forms 
of religion and the non-illusory forms.  If the "forms" are written 
down in a book and a large church built, does this make the forms 
less illusory?  Please explain.

--
William Hart Russell
4806 Red River Street
Austin, TX  78751
H: 512-453-4774 (messages)
CELL:  512-940-8336

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[Texascavers] Hippie chix, healing

[BMorgan994]

What do shamanic rituals, holographic medicine, holistic healing, and  
spiritualism all have in common besides old hippie chix? They are all  entirely 
illusory forms of religion!
 
Sleaze

Re: [ot_caving] politics / iran / isreal

[Don Cooper]

It seems that Washington has its Biblical fundamental ties to Isreal.
Washington also has its financial/oil ass-kissing ties to the Saudis.
Saudi Arabia is a SUNNI muslim country - which are apparently moderate.
Many other of the SHIITE muslim countries are sworn enemies of the US.
That's it in a nutshell.
(Help! get me out of this nutshell!)
-WaV

On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 8:53 AM, David  wrote:

> Iran is in the news again.
>
> They seem to be reacting to recent military events that Israel
> was participating in.
>
> I know almost nothing about the Iran / Israel relations or why
> things are unpleasant between the 2 countries.
>
> I have never understood why the U.S. has such a great interest
> in Israel compared with say Bolivia or Iceland?  Maybe it is
> because nobody wants to annihilate Bolivia or Iceland, especially
> somebody like a nation such as Iran.
>
> Is our federal government supposed to police the middle east for
> the next 50 years or 100 years?   How much money are we
> and our kids and grandkids supposed to donate for that risky
> investment.Given the choice, would you rather not donate
> to a cause that has a higher probability of success like the cure
> for athletes foot.
>
> Personally, I don't want to see a single penny of mine spent
> on the middle east.  Sure I would like to protect the caves over
> there or see some tourist sites, but not for the high cost the U.S.
> has spent for the last 50 years over there and the future 50 years.
>
> I think the future of the middle east is clear.  A very very expensive
> and sad and violent series of events for 100's if not 1000's of years.
>
> I think both Obama and McCain's strategies suck to the point of
> almost being idiotic.
>
> One solution might be to just call the whole middle east
> the" United Republics of Israel," and get rid of anybody that stands
> in the way.
>
> The other solution is for the U.S. to annex the whole region and treat it
> like Puerto Rico, and get rid of all the theological legal bodies.
>
> We could also try to kiss up to Iran and try very hard to be their best
> friend.I don't see that happening, and I don't believe that will
> work.
> They will just infiltrate the U.S. and try to gain power.   They might
> even try to purchase the Chyrsler Tower.  Imagine that happening???
>
> So given the choices, I think we need to go with the least expensive
> route.But will the world and the Arabs overseas forgive us for
> that.
> Obama won't do it that way, and I doubt McCain will either. I am sure
> Bush wishes he could.
>
> David
>
> -
> Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
> For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com
>
>

RE: [Texascavers] Looking for Photo Info

[MHarris]

I looked at the TSS Cave map and I agree, it is Moorhead Cave that I was in 
when I shot the photo.
 
Mike

-Original Message-
From: John Greer [mailto:jgr...@greerservices.com]
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 4:05 AM
To: mark.al...@l-3com.com; Texas Cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Looking for Photo Info


We (archeologists familiar with the area) all agree the photo is looking 
upstream from Moorhead Cave (41VV55). 
 
See the following for an exterior view of the cave entrance:
http://www.lonestarlands.com/pecos-bridge.html
 
Also the second photo on this page:
http://www.texasfreeway.com/Statewide/ValVerde/US90/PecosRiver/PecosRiver-WestBank-Down2.html
 
 
John 
 
 
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com 
To: John Greer   
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 12:54 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Looking for Photo Info


 

I got my answer, John.

 

Michael Harris of Bexar Grotto sent it.

 

I've attached a copy of it.

 

It's the Hwy 90 bridge over the Pecos, shot from a cave.

 

 

Thanks for your response!

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

 


  _  


From: John Greer [mailto:jgr...@greerservices.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:50 PM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Looking for Photo Info

 

If we could see the photo we might have an idea. There are only two "caves" on 
the Pecos that might work. 

John Greer

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com 

To: Texascavers@texascavers.com 

Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:36 AM

Subject: [Texascavers] Looking for Photo Info

 

A while back, I issued a plea for photos for possible use in The TEXAS CAVER.

I had a fabulous response to my request and would like to include one of these 
in the next issue, but I'm lacking proper credit.

The photo is shot from inside of a cave overlooking a river, I believe it's the 
Pecos, with a bridge in the background and a truck driving over it.

It was shot with a FinePix A400 camera 11/15/07 at 4:16 PM.

If you know anything about this photo, please contact me offline.

I can email it to you, if it sounds familiar.

 

Mucho gracias!

Mark

[ot_caving] politics / iran / isreal

[David]

Iran is in the news again.

They seem to be reacting to recent military events that Israel
was participating in.

I know almost nothing about the Iran / Israel relations or why
things are unpleasant between the 2 countries.

I have never understood why the U.S. has such a great interest
in Israel compared with say Bolivia or Iceland?  Maybe it is
because nobody wants to annihilate Bolivia or Iceland, especially
somebody like a nation such as Iran.

Is our federal government supposed to police the middle east for
the next 50 years or 100 years?   How much money are we
and our kids and grandkids supposed to donate for that risky
investment.Given the choice, would you rather not donate
to a cause that has a higher probability of success like the cure
for athletes foot.

Personally, I don't want to see a single penny of mine spent
on the middle east.  Sure I would like to protect the caves over
there or see some tourist sites, but not for the high cost the U.S.
has spent for the last 50 years over there and the future 50 years.

I think the future of the middle east is clear.  A very very expensive
and sad and violent series of events for 100's if not 1000's of years.

I think both Obama and McCain's strategies suck to the point of
almost being idiotic.

One solution might be to just call the whole middle east
the" United Republics of Israel," and get rid of anybody that stands
in the way.

The other solution is for the U.S. to annex the whole region and treat it
like Puerto Rico, and get rid of all the theological legal bodies.

We could also try to kiss up to Iran and try very hard to be their best
friend.I don't see that happening, and I don't believe that will work.
They will just infiltrate the U.S. and try to gain power.   They might
even try to purchase the Chyrsler Tower.  Imagine that happening???

So given the choices, I think we need to go with the least expensive
route.But will the world and the Arabs overseas forgive us for that.
Obama won't do it that way, and I doubt McCain will either. I am sure
Bush wishes he could.

David

-
Give this to a friend: ot-subscr...@texascavers.com
To unsubscribe, e-mail: ot-unsubscr...@texascavers.com
For additional commands, e-mail: ot-h...@texascavers.com

RE: [Texascavers] Looking for Photo Info

[mark . alman]

 

I agree with all of you learned minds, John.

 

That would be the cave and bridge.

 

 

Ah, nothing like a bit of mystery and intrigue to enliven an otherwise
languid summer day!

 

 

Now, back to the drudgery.

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

 



From: John Greer [mailto:jgr...@greerservices.com] 
Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 4:05 AM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP; Texas Cavers
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Looking for Photo Info

 

We (archeologists familiar with the area) all agree the photo is looking
upstream from Moorhead Cave (41VV55). 

 

See the following for an exterior view of the cave entrance:

http://www.lonestarlands.com/pecos-bridge.html

 

Also the second photo on this page:

http://www.texasfreeway.com/Statewide/ValVerde/US90/PecosRiver/PecosRive
r-WestBank-Down2.html

 

 

John 

 

 

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com 

To: John Greer   

Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 12:54 PM

Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Looking for Photo Info

 

 

I got my answer, John.

 

Michael Harris of Bexar Grotto sent it.

 

I've attached a copy of it.

 

It's the Hwy 90 bridge over the Pecos, shot from a cave.

 

 

Thanks for your response!

 

 

Mark

 

 

 

 



From: John Greer [mailto:jgr...@greerservices.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:50 PM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Looking for Photo Info

 

If we could see the photo we might have an idea. There are only two
"caves" on the Pecos that might work. 

John Greer

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com 

To: Texascavers@texascavers.com 

Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:36 AM

Subject: [Texascavers] Looking for Photo Info

 

A while back, I issued a plea for photos for possible use in The TEXAS
CAVER.

I had a fabulous response to my request and would like to include one of
these in the next issue, but I'm lacking proper credit.

The photo is shot from inside of a cave overlooking a river, I believe
it's the Pecos, with a bridge in the background and a truck driving over
it.

It was shot with a FinePix A400 camera 11/15/07 at 4:16 PM.

If you know anything about this photo, please contact me offline.

I can email it to you, if it sounds familiar.

 

Mucho gracias!

Mark

Re: [Texascavers] Looking for Photo Info

[John Greer]

Looking for Photo InfoWe (archeologists familiar with the area) all agree 
the photo is looking upstream from Moorhead Cave (41VV55).

See the following for an exterior view of the cave entrance:
http://www.lonestarlands.com/pecos-bridge.html

Also the second photo on this page:
http://www.texasfreeway.com/Statewide/ValVerde/US90/PecosRiver/PecosRiver-WestBank-Down2.html


John




- Original Message - 
From: mark.al...@l-3com.com
To: John Greer
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 12:54 PM
Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Looking for Photo Info




I got my answer, John.



Michael Harris of Bexar Grotto sent it.



I've attached a copy of it.



It's the Hwy 90 bridge over the Pecos, shot from a cave.





Thanks for your response!





Mark












From: John Greer [mailto:jgr...@greerservices.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 1:50 PM
To: Alman, Mark @ IRP
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Looking for Photo Info



If we could see the photo we might have an idea. There are only two "caves" 
on the Pecos that might work.

John Greer





- Original Message - 

From: mark.al...@l-3com.com

To: Texascavers@texascavers.com

Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2008 10:36 AM

Subject: [Texascavers] Looking for Photo Info



A while back, I issued a plea for photos for possible use in The TEXAS 
CAVER.

I had a fabulous response to my request and would like to include one of 
these in the next issue, but I'm lacking proper credit.

The photo is shot from inside of a cave overlooking a river, I believe it's 
the Pecos, with a bridge in the background and a truck driving over it.

It was shot with a FinePix A400 camera 11/15/07 at 4:16 PM.

If you know anything about this photo, please contact me offline.

I can email it to you, if it sounds familiar.



Mucho gracias!

Mark

[Texascavers] UT prof unearths clues about climate in caves :

[jerryatkin]

UT prof unearths clues about climate in caves

Geology professor and his students get muddy while collecting calcite in 
Georgetown cave.

By Asher Price
AMERICAN-STATESMAN STAFF
Tuesday, July 08, 2008 

If a stalactite hanging from a cave ceiling looks to the layman like an icicle, 
it's not a far-off comparison. 

In the eyes of University of Texas geology professor Jay Banner, stalactites, 
and their up-from-the-ground cousins stalagmites — both mineral formations left 
behind by dripping or seeping water — amount to a frozen record of climate, 
rainfall and atmosphere changes over the past 70,000 years. 



As scientists around the world work to measure the speed at which the Earth is 
warming and the variations in the greenhouse gas carbon dioxide, the answers 
may turn up in the caverns that lie beneath Central Texas. These underground 
spaces, in short, are a kind of thermometer for aboveground ones. 

With elbow pads and kneepads, helmet and headlamp, Banner has made at least 100 
trips through mud and over rock beneath Texas to uncover clues about the past, 
and about the future of the state's aquifers. 

Banner, 51 who has a salt-and-pepper beard, grew up in Queens, New York, and 
still carries with him a kind of streetwise, corny humor. 



He defines speleothem, the collective term for underground rock formations, 
thusly: 

" 'Speleo,' which means in Greek 'cave,' and '-them,' which means 'them 
things,' " he says. "Together it means 'them things you find in a cave.' " 
(-Them does not, in fact, mean 'them things.' ") 


On a trip this month to Inner Space Cavern in Georgetown, where he does some 
field work, he explained to students that 100 million years ago, when the caves 
that make up the Edwards Aquifer first began forming by water dissolving 
underground limestone, the banks of the sea would have run about through 
Central Texas. 

"Your trip to spring break would have been much shorter, starting right outside 
your door, and you wouldn't have had to drive all the way down to South Padre," 
he said. "The bad news is that finding someone of the same species and of the 
opposite gender — which is the goal of spring break — would have been much 
harder." 

For a decade or so he has been studying the deposits of minerals called 
calcites that are left behind by the drip, drip, drip that trickles through 
soil and into the caves. 

With a battery-operated drill topped by a diamond-tipped, stainless steel bit, 
he and his research assistants have taken speleothem samples to bring back to 
their labs. Using an isotope dating system, they can seize on the age of the 
formations, and they analyze the mineral makeup of deposits left behind. 

"We can form a baseline level for the climate system before humans started 
doing things that supposedly change the climate," he said. 



He says that the historic growth rates of the formations correspond with soil 
moisture — the more water in the soil, the faster the growth of the formations 
— which in turn is driven by temperature variation. 

He had his first cave experience while still a graduate student at the State 
University of New York Stony Brook, when he went caving in West Virginia with 
friends. Then, in the early 1990s, while doing groundwater work in a limestone 
aquifer in Barbados, he became interested in what he saw as an understudied 
field. 

The tendency among spelunkers is to label rock formations with a method not 
unlike describing clouds on a lazy afternoon: A wavy ceiling at Inner Space 
Cavern is known as an upside-down lemon meringue; a stack of stone is known as 
Texas' largest ice cream sandwich; a butterscotch-colored stalagmite is Buddha 
enjoying a massive sundae. 



But the seemingly random underground rock formations have a pattern. They 
follow, for instance, fissures created by long-ago movement of tectonic plates. 
And Banner is hoping to chart the future of the formations, as well as the 
caves and aquifers generally, as he collects more data on their composition 
over the millenia. 

In many ways, the cavern is not just a frozen record of a long-ago climate. It 
is literally a graveyard of the past. The remains of armadillos the size of 
Volkswagen Beetles, saber-tooth tigers and mammoths have turned up here. 

"It's kind of like an adventure, even though it's scientific research," said 
Esther Mandelbaum, a 22-year-old geology major who helps Banner collect calcite 
samples at Inner Space Cavern. 

After a long morning of collecting water, air and mineral samples, while being 
careful not to touch the formations themselves, Banner led his students to a 
cave known simply as the mud room. 

"It's OK to throw mud at each other, just not at the walls or the ceilings," 
Banner told the students, who immediately obliged. 



asherpr...@statesman.com; 445-3643 





Jay Banner 

Occupation:Professor and Dave P. Carlton Centennial Fellow in Geology. 
Director, Environmental Science Institute at the University of Texas.