[Texascavers] CBD insanity
Petitioning to keep public caves open is the wrong thing to do, or at least not the best thing to do. We need to start an effective petition or “sanction” - to have the CBD shut, not caves. They have proven none of their absurd allegations, but they’ve clearly proven one thing - that they are uneducated, uninformed - and unconscionably and incorrigibly stupid. Jim Evatt
[SWR] Petitioning the wrong thing
Petitioning to keep public caves open is the wrong thing to do. We need to start an effective petition (petition is a Mafia word meaning rub out) - to HAVE THE CBD shut! E ^v^ att ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[Texascavers] Close all caves?
Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/ !/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F
Re: [Texascavers] Close all caves?
I wondered the same thing. This is the response I sent to the SWR list: It is true that CBD wants all federally-owned caves closed, but I can find no evidence that they are also seeking fines for private landowners who do not follow suit. Where did this information come from? Here are a couple of relevant web pages: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2012/white-nose-syndrome-04-11-2012.html, http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/center/articles/2012/summit-county-citizens-voice-04-12-2012.html. Before I ask anyone to sign the petition I'd like to know that the information is accurate. Thank you. Mark Minton At 03:42 PM 4/13/2012, Linda Palit wrote: Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Re: Close all caves?
Center for Biological Diversity. Non- profit group suing the government. On Friday, April 13, 2012, Mark Minton wrote: I wondered the same thing. This is the response I sent to the SWR list: It is true that CBD wants all federally-owned caves closed, but I can find no evidence that they are also seeking fines for private landowners who do not follow suit. Where did this information come from? Here are a couple of relevant web pages: http://www.** biologicaldiversity.org/news/**press_releases/2012/white-** nose-syndrome-04-11-2012.htmlhttp://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2012/white-nose-syndrome-04-11-2012.html **, http://www.**biologicaldiversity.org/news/** center/articles/2012/summit-**county-citizens-voice-04-12-**2012.htmlhttp://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/center/articles/2012/summit-county-citizens-voice-04-12-2012.html. Before I ask anyone to sign the petition I'd like to know that the information is accurate. Thank you. Mark Minton At 03:42 PM 4/13/2012, Linda Palit wrote: Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/**petitions/!/petition/support-** conservation-recreation-**science-and-personal-freedom-** mandating-public-access-caves-**public/YX8Bjp3Fhttps://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org --**--**- Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Close all caves?
Is this the one where they spend all their donated money on lawyers to sue the government for more money to pay on lawyers, etc. What does BillM 'say'?: May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Stefan From: Linda Palit [mailto:linda.k.pa...@gmail.com] Center for Biological Diversity. Non- profit group suing the government. -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Re: [Texascavers] Close all caves?
USFWS issued the following response to the CBD petition last summer basically calling it ridiculous: http://nrmg.cavesofmontana.org/content/bats-wns/2011_07_USFWS-response-to-CBD.pdf I think this is a dead issue. Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Linda Palit linda.k.pa...@gmail.com wrote: Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F
RE: [Texascavers] Close all caves?
I have heard nothing so far from the FS and BLM out here. Of course, we're pretty far out here from known infectious areas. Louise Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 16:18:31 -0400 To: texascavers@texascavers.com From: mmin...@caver.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Close all caves? I wondered the same thing. This is the response I sent to the SWR list: It is true that CBD wants all federally-owned caves closed, but I can find no evidence that they are also seeking fines for private landowners who do not follow suit. Where did this information come from? Here are a couple of relevant web pages: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2012/white-nose-syndrome-04-11-2012.html, http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/center/articles/2012/summit-county-citizens-voice-04-12-2012.html. Before I ask anyone to sign the petition I'd like to know that the information is accurate. Thank you. Mark Minton At 03:42 PM 4/13/2012, Linda Palit wrote: Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Close all caves?
As a BLM employee, let me say that groups like CBD keep us in court constantly be it because of fishers, spotted owls, TE plants, or other perceived threats. That's where a lot of your tax money is going...gov't lawyers defending agencies in court. I can appreciate groups like this trying to protect nature from the folly of man, but we're not all blazing idiots. Believe it or not, some of us actually have the same concerns and know what we're doing. Louise From: stefan.crea...@arm.com To: linda.k.pa...@gmail.com CC: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:40:16 -0700 Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Close all caves? Is this the one where they spend all their donated money on lawyers to sue the government for more money to pay on lawyers, etc. What does BillM ‘say’?: May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Stefan From: Linda Palit [mailto:linda.k.pa...@gmail.com] Center for Biological Diversity. Non- profit group suing the government. -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Re: [SWR] [SPAM] - Petitioning the wrong thing
An idea...yea...but not functional or realistic. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Phone -Original message- From: Jim Evatt nmca...@comcast.net To: s...@caver.net s...@caver.net Sent: 2012 Apr, Fri, 13 23:51:35 GMT+00:00 Subject: [SPAM] - [SWR] Petitioning the wrong thing Petitioning to keep public caves open is the wrong thing to do. We need to start an effective petition (petition is a Mafia word meaning rub out) - to HAVE THE CBD shut! E ^v^ att ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[Texascavers] The Deep Zone review
The Deep Zone. James M. Tabor. Ballantine Books, New York; 2012. ISBN 978-0-345-53061-5. 6 by 9 inches, 418 pages, hardbound. $26.00. In this novel, a drug-resistant variant of a bacteria has symptoms similar to that of the Ebola virus and breaks out among hospitalized U.S. troops in Afghanistan. A bioluminescent moonmilk deep in a cave in Oaxaca, Mexico, may hold the cure. A good bit of the action takes place in the cave, and the author makes use of the knowledge he gained in writing Blind Descent about the exploration of deep caves. Some readers will recognize Llano Cheve and the entrance to Cueva Cheve, though not the cenote in the field. The cave does resemble Cheve, augmented by lethal concentrations of hydrogen sulfide gas and a long lake of sulfuric acid. The cave is called Cueva de Luz, similar to the name of Cueva de la Villa Luz in Tabasco that does feature those chemicals, although not to that extent. At least there are no fire- breathing monsters, but I suppose some could be written in when the movie is made. The book is an action thriller, I guess, of the James Bond variety, lots of guns and bad guys, though no really big explosions. The book might almost be called science fiction and fantasy in a few places, notably the vertical technique used, but a lot of background is based loosely on fact. Besides echos of Blind Descent and The Hot Zone, there are probably nods to other books I have not read. Sometimes I got the impression that some of the detail was included mainly to show off the author's research, but perhaps that's typical of the genre. As in Blind Descent, there are glitches, some of which should have been obvious to an editor without special knowledge. The thickness of 20 mils has become 20 millimeters. Can you imagine a hazmat suit made of 20 millimeter plastic? Given the way Tabor made caving sound like the most exciting and dangerous thing in the world in his non-fiction (more or less) Blind Descent, I shuddered at the thought of what he might do in fiction. But that sort of thing works better, I guess, in a novel like this, where the reader does not expect realism. I'm not much of a reader of this sort of book, and I won't seek out more, but it wasn't bad. --Bill Mixon Nature is a hanging judge. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Begin forwarded message: From: seileo...@gmail.com Date: April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT To: saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com Bcc: speleob...@comcast.net Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Hey, all, As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
I really wish that petition was worded more like his letter below. Cleaning your gear with hot water is NOT decontamination. Please wash your gear first AND then decontaminate by immersing in 122f water for 15 minutes. Jen From: speleob...@comcast.net Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:31:51 -0600 To: wilsonsofcolor...@yahoo.com; speleob...@comcast.net; mi...@fastwave.biz; grnpacav...@gmail.com; mike_dimat...@comcast.net; motoca...@gmail.com; regan...@nmsu.edu; tu...@sbcglobal.net; david.winn...@yahoo.com; karstpat...@gmail.com; wcwal...@zianet.com; robw...@wwdb.org; rambe...@zianet.com; jbac...@comcast.net; oldgru...@msn.com; elpasoca...@yahoo.com; lpeer...@lcsun-news.com; scottanderso...@yahoo.com; sarcave...@gmail.com; mike_bi...@blm.gov; nmba...@zianet.com; lee.t.wil...@gmail.com; katert...@comcast.net; rfos...@nmsu.edu; margaretwilso...@gmail.com; sldstev...@msn.com; siz...@hotmail.com; gra...@comcast.net; cor...@alum.dartmouth.org; gggr...@hotmail.com; dmartin...@gmail.com; gypca...@comcast.net; kver...@aol.com; hadl...@htg.net; mbbi...@yahoo.com; janice.tuc...@live.com; jkl...@yahoo.com; lawrence.r.fore...@saic.com; abthomi...@comcast.net; johnmo...@excite.com; forema...@saic.com; casto...@gmail.com; billgo...@gmail.com; mikelis...@msn.com; s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Begin forwarded message:From: seileo...@gmail.com Date: April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT To: saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com Bcc: speleob...@comcast.net Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Hey, all, As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham Kathy peermanspeleob...@comcast.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: *Subject: **Petition to keep public caves open to the public* As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. *Human contributions to spread* can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/%21/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Jen, et. al., Yes, I questioned that too, but I signed the petition anyway and forwarded the e-mail to the Sandia Grotto list. Linda On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:02 PM, jen . bigredfo...@hotmail.com wrote: I really wish that petition was worded more like his letter below. Cleaning your gear with hot water is NOT decontamination. Please wash your gear first AND then decontaminate by immersing in 122f water for 15 minutes. Jen -- From: speleob...@comcast.net Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:31:51 -0600 To: wilsonsofcolor...@yahoo.com; speleob...@comcast.net; mi...@fastwave.biz; grnpacav...@gmail.com; mike_dimat...@comcast.net; motoca...@gmail.com; regan...@nmsu.edu; tu...@sbcglobal.net; david.winn...@yahoo.com; karstpat...@gmail.com; wcwal...@zianet.com; robw...@wwdb.org; rambe...@zianet.com; jbac...@comcast.net; oldgru...@msn.com; elpasoca...@yahoo.com; lpeer...@lcsun-news.com; scottanderso...@yahoo.com; sarcave...@gmail.com; mike_bi...@blm.gov; nmba...@zianet.com; lee.t.wil...@gmail.com; katert...@comcast.net; rfos...@nmsu.edu; margaretwilso...@gmail.com; sldstev...@msn.com; siz...@hotmail.com; gra...@comcast.net; cor...@alum.dartmouth.org; gggr...@hotmail.com; dmartin...@gmail.com; gypca...@comcast.net; kver...@aol.com; hadl...@htg.net; mbbi...@yahoo.com; janice.tuc...@live.com; jkl...@yahoo.com; lawrence.r.fore...@saic.com; abthomi...@comcast.net; johnmo...@excite.com; forema...@saic.com; casto...@gmail.com; billgo...@gmail.com; mikelis...@msn.com; s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Begin forwarded message: *From: *seileo...@gmail.com *Date: *April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT *To: *saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com *Bcc: *speleob...@comcast.net *Subject: **Petition to keep public caves open to the public* Hey, all, As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John
Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public
On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Carl Pagano wrote: It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open.
Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Though I admit that especially after working intimately with radioactive contamination (which is also invisible to the eye), I sometimes have a problem with suspending my disbelief with the WNS decontamination protocol, I do think that cavers are aware of how to clean ourselves. We are aware bats are THE vector for spreading WNS. But even if it is a one in a million chance that cavers (with no bat to human contact) could spread it, as cave conservationists, we need to not be that one in a million chance. Let's keep working towards a solution and not just fighting against people. Jen From: pagan...@comcast.net Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:02:00 -0600 To: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Carl Pagano wrote:It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they arerestricted to just one cave?The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message:
Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public
On 04/13/2012 15:15, jen . wrote: Though I admit that especially after working intimately with radioactive contamination (which is also invisible to the eye), I sometimes have a problem with suspending my disbelief with the WNS decontamination protocol, I do think that cavers are aware of how to clean ourselves. We are aware bats are THE vector for spreading WNS. But even if it is a one in a million chance that cavers (with no bat to human contact) could spread it, as cave conservationists, we need to not be that one in a million chance. Let's keep working towards a solution and not just fighting against people. Part of the solution is resisting interference and ignoring threats from groups like the CBD. On that note it is SO coincidental that just a few minutes ago another email came in where the CBD was shot down (again) by the EPA... On Monday, the Environmental Protection Agency denied for the second time a petition by the Center for Biological Diversity and other anti-hunting groups asking the EPA to impose a nationwide ban on the use of ammunition containing lead. The petition was essentially a repetition of a similar petition submitted by the CBD in 2010. The EPA found that the new petition was almost identical to the earlier petition, had no substantive difference, and contains no new information as compared to the earlier petition. If only the land managers had a spine and took a similar stand. Note the contains no new information language. That sure sounds a lot like the status of WNS. Will the CBD sue the EPA? Probably. There's money to be had. But, rather than caving in to a frivolous litigation group, the EPA basically told CBD to go pound sand. BLM, USFS, FWS and NPS could do the same but, as noted, it requires a spine. The threat of a lawsuit from CBD is always present (and is nearly a given)...that's how they operate and how they fund themselves. Remember, you can be sued anywhere, any time, by anyone regardless of whether the suit has merit or not. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Jeez, Steve, and here I was going to sign that petition just to feel like I was doing *something* to stop the CBD from controlling the situation. Dunham, whoever he is, says that CBD is petitioning the White House themselves to close all caves. If so, they are pissing in the wind as well, according to your view. However, if they get the upper hand by THEIR petition and we as cavers do nothing to stop their petition or at least counteract it with one of our own, then we're the ones who got pissed on downwind, not them. As a friend of a friend once said, don't get any on ya'…. This is sure a political hot button for everyone, no matter which side of the WNS and cave closure issue you come down on. Signing it, despite all its defects and whether it is effective or not, can't hurt and at least gives some of us the opportunity to voice an equally strong opinion about *not* closing down caves en masse. With all the money that some of the private commercial cave owners have (Luray, Howe, etc), it is highly unlikely that CBD will be able to close down all caves, no matter who owns them. You can stop the supposed human vector, as yet unproved, and leave it to the bats to do the spreading all by themselves as they seem to be doing a fine job of already. Alas, WNS was confirmed in Maine earlier this year and there are no commercial caves in our state and virtually no cavers to spread it. In fact, it showed up in mines, not caves and most cavers don't do mines anyway. Having said all that, I was very frustrated in trying to find a way to sign the damned thing as it was. I signed in but could never get back to the petition to sign it and couldn't find it anywhere once I was signed in. It's a conspiracy!!! It's those damned liberals….. Wait, I'm one of them. Yikes!!! Peter On Apr 13, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[Texascavers] Fwd: NSS Conservation Network - New USFWS WNS Decon Protocols
Hi all, Below is a new addition to the WNS decon protocols. Allan Sent with my fat thumbs on my iPhone Begin forwarded message: From: Steve Smith stevenlsm...@usa.net Date: April 13, 2012 12:09:12 AM CDT To: stevenlsm...@usa.net Subject: NSS Conservation Network - New USFWS WNS Decon Protocols From Jim Werker and Val Hildreth-Werker, NSS Conservation Division Co-Chairs (through the NSS Conservation Network - Steve Smith, Coordinator): We just received this information from Peter Youngbaer, NSS WNS Liaison, who requested that it be sent out on the NSS Conservation Network (NSSCN). Please pass the word out to the folks within your IO. Thanks! Jim Val . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service today, April 9, 2012, released their new cleaning and disinfecting protocols for dealing with White Nose Syndrome. A major new addition is a non-chemical hot water standard for disinfection: maintaining clothing and gear submerged in hot water at a sustained temperature of greater than 50 degrees Celsius (122 F) for more than 15 minutes. IMPORTANT: This hot water disinfecting is done AFTER completing the usual cleaning with surfactant, such as Woolite, and removal of organic material The full protocol can be found at: http://whitenosesyndrome.org/sites/default/files/resource/national_wns_decontamination_protocol_v_03.15.2012.pdf Peter Youngbaer White Nose Syndrome Liaison National Speleological Society (802) 272-3802 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . In my never-ending quest to keep the NSSCN E-Mail addressee list as current as possible, I'd appreciate it greatly if each IO would send me their druthers on who within the IO they'd like to receive this info. Usually, this info should go to the IO Conservation Chair, for subsequent forwarding out to their respective membership. If the IO does not have a designated Conservation Chair, then this info should go to the overall IO Chair. Please send me any addressee changes/updates due to IO internal elections, folks moving out of town, etc. Thanks! Steve Smith, NSSCN coordinator
[Cowtown] NSS Conservation Network - New USFWS WNS Decon Protocols
I spoke to Becky Jones of Gonzo Guano Gear (packs, harnesses, etc.) this morning about high temperature water and she says according to the cordage institute the tacky temperature for nylon is around 180 degrees F, so soaking in 122 degree F water for 15 minutes is probably not going to weaken the fibers in caving gear. Just to be sure about this issue, she will pass this question along to Steve Hudson of PMI and report if there is anything cavers should be concerned about. I would think (from a nonprofessional standpoint) that this new protocol is easier on the gear than chemicals, especially bleach. Getting dirt out from between the fibers is probably going to add usable time to the life of the gear by cutting down internal abrasion on the fibers. And no fungus to boot! From: Steve Smith stevenlsm...@usa.net Date: April 13, 2012 12:09:12 AM CDT To: stevenlsm...@usa.net Subject: NSS Conservation Network - New USFWS WNS Decon Protocols From Jim Werker and Val Hildreth-Werker, NSS Conservation Division Co-Chairs (through the NSS Conservation Network - Steve Smith, Coordinator): We just received this information from Peter Youngbaer, NSS WNS Liaison, who requested that it be sent out on the NSS Conservation Network (NSSCN). Please pass the word out to the folks within your IO. Thanks! Jim Val . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service today, April 9, 2012, released their new cleaning and disinfecting protocols for dealing with White Nose Syndrome. A major new addition is a non-chemical hot water standard for disinfection: maintaining clothing and gear submerged in hot water at a sustained temperature of greater than 50 degrees Celsius (122 F) for more than 15 minutes. IMPORTANT: This hot water disinfecting is done AFTER completing the usual cleaning with surfactant, such as Woolite, and removal of organic material The full protocol can be found at: http://whitenosesyndrome.org/sites/default/files/resource/national_wns_decontamination_protocol_v_03.15.2012.pdf Peter Youngbaer White Nose Syndrome Liaison National Speleological Society (802) 272-3802 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . In my never-ending quest to keep the NSSCN E-Mail addressee list as current as possible, I'd appreciate it greatly if each IO would send me their druthers on who within the IO they'd like to receive this info. Usually, this info should go to the IO Conservation Chair, for subsequent forwarding out to their respective membership. If the IO does not have a designated Conservation Chair, then this info should go to the overall IO Chair. Please send me any addressee changes/updates due to IO internal elections, folks moving out of town, etc. Thanks! Steve Smith, NSSCN coordinator
[Texascavers] CBD insanity
Petitioning to keep public caves open is the wrong thing to do, or at least not the best thing to do. We need to start an effective petition or “sanction” - to have the CBD shut, not caves. They have proven none of their absurd allegations, but they’ve clearly proven one thing - that they are uneducated, uninformed - and unconscionably and incorrigibly stupid. Jim Evatt
[SWR] Petitioning the wrong thing
Petitioning to keep public caves open is the wrong thing to do. We need to start an effective petition (petition is a Mafia word meaning rub out) - to HAVE THE CBD shut! E ^v^ att ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[Texascavers] Close all caves?
Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/ !/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F
Re: [Texascavers] Close all caves?
I wondered the same thing. This is the response I sent to the SWR list: It is true that CBD wants all federally-owned caves closed, but I can find no evidence that they are also seeking fines for private landowners who do not follow suit. Where did this information come from? Here are a couple of relevant web pages: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2012/white-nose-syndrome-04-11-2012.html, http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/center/articles/2012/summit-county-citizens-voice-04-12-2012.html. Before I ask anyone to sign the petition I'd like to know that the information is accurate. Thank you. Mark Minton At 03:42 PM 4/13/2012, Linda Palit wrote: Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Re: Close all caves?
Center for Biological Diversity. Non- profit group suing the government. On Friday, April 13, 2012, Mark Minton wrote: I wondered the same thing. This is the response I sent to the SWR list: It is true that CBD wants all federally-owned caves closed, but I can find no evidence that they are also seeking fines for private landowners who do not follow suit. Where did this information come from? Here are a couple of relevant web pages: http://www.** biologicaldiversity.org/news/**press_releases/2012/white-** nose-syndrome-04-11-2012.htmlhttp://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2012/white-nose-syndrome-04-11-2012.html **, http://www.**biologicaldiversity.org/news/** center/articles/2012/summit-**county-citizens-voice-04-12-**2012.htmlhttp://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/center/articles/2012/summit-county-citizens-voice-04-12-2012.html. Before I ask anyone to sign the petition I'd like to know that the information is accurate. Thank you. Mark Minton At 03:42 PM 4/13/2012, Linda Palit wrote: Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/**petitions/!/petition/support-** conservation-recreation-**science-and-personal-freedom-** mandating-public-access-caves-**public/YX8Bjp3Fhttps://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org --**--**- Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Close all caves?
Is this the one where they spend all their donated money on lawyers to sue the government for more money to pay on lawyers, etc. What does BillM 'say'?: May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Stefan From: Linda Palit [mailto:linda.k.pa...@gmail.com] Center for Biological Diversity. Non- profit group suing the government. -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Re: [Texascavers] Close all caves?
USFWS issued the following response to the CBD petition last summer basically calling it ridiculous: http://nrmg.cavesofmontana.org/content/bats-wns/2011_07_USFWS-response-to-CBD.pdf I think this is a dead issue. Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Linda Palit linda.k.pa...@gmail.com wrote: Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F
RE: [Texascavers] Close all caves?
I have heard nothing so far from the FS and BLM out here. Of course, we're pretty far out here from known infectious areas. Louise Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 16:18:31 -0400 To: texascavers@texascavers.com From: mmin...@caver.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Close all caves? I wondered the same thing. This is the response I sent to the SWR list: It is true that CBD wants all federally-owned caves closed, but I can find no evidence that they are also seeking fines for private landowners who do not follow suit. Where did this information come from? Here are a couple of relevant web pages: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2012/white-nose-syndrome-04-11-2012.html, http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/center/articles/2012/summit-county-citizens-voice-04-12-2012.html. Before I ask anyone to sign the petition I'd like to know that the information is accurate. Thank you. Mark Minton At 03:42 PM 4/13/2012, Linda Palit wrote: Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Close all caves?
As a BLM employee, let me say that groups like CBD keep us in court constantly be it because of fishers, spotted owls, TE plants, or other perceived threats. That's where a lot of your tax money is going...gov't lawyers defending agencies in court. I can appreciate groups like this trying to protect nature from the folly of man, but we're not all blazing idiots. Believe it or not, some of us actually have the same concerns and know what we're doing. Louise From: stefan.crea...@arm.com To: linda.k.pa...@gmail.com CC: texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:40:16 -0700 Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Close all caves? Is this the one where they spend all their donated money on lawyers to sue the government for more money to pay on lawyers, etc. What does BillM ‘say’?: May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Stefan From: Linda Palit [mailto:linda.k.pa...@gmail.com] Center for Biological Diversity. Non- profit group suing the government. -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Re: [SWR] [SPAM] - Petitioning the wrong thing
An idea...yea...but not functional or realistic. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Phone -Original message- From: Jim Evatt nmca...@comcast.net To: s...@caver.net s...@caver.net Sent: 2012 Apr, Fri, 13 23:51:35 GMT+00:00 Subject: [SPAM] - [SWR] Petitioning the wrong thing Petitioning to keep public caves open is the wrong thing to do. We need to start an effective petition (petition is a Mafia word meaning rub out) - to HAVE THE CBD shut! E ^v^ att ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[Texascavers] The Deep Zone review
The Deep Zone. James M. Tabor. Ballantine Books, New York; 2012. ISBN 978-0-345-53061-5. 6 by 9 inches, 418 pages, hardbound. $26.00. In this novel, a drug-resistant variant of a bacteria has symptoms similar to that of the Ebola virus and breaks out among hospitalized U.S. troops in Afghanistan. A bioluminescent moonmilk deep in a cave in Oaxaca, Mexico, may hold the cure. A good bit of the action takes place in the cave, and the author makes use of the knowledge he gained in writing Blind Descent about the exploration of deep caves. Some readers will recognize Llano Cheve and the entrance to Cueva Cheve, though not the cenote in the field. The cave does resemble Cheve, augmented by lethal concentrations of hydrogen sulfide gas and a long lake of sulfuric acid. The cave is called Cueva de Luz, similar to the name of Cueva de la Villa Luz in Tabasco that does feature those chemicals, although not to that extent. At least there are no fire- breathing monsters, but I suppose some could be written in when the movie is made. The book is an action thriller, I guess, of the James Bond variety, lots of guns and bad guys, though no really big explosions. The book might almost be called science fiction and fantasy in a few places, notably the vertical technique used, but a lot of background is based loosely on fact. Besides echos of Blind Descent and The Hot Zone, there are probably nods to other books I have not read. Sometimes I got the impression that some of the detail was included mainly to show off the author's research, but perhaps that's typical of the genre. As in Blind Descent, there are glitches, some of which should have been obvious to an editor without special knowledge. The thickness of 20 mils has become 20 millimeters. Can you imagine a hazmat suit made of 20 millimeter plastic? Given the way Tabor made caving sound like the most exciting and dangerous thing in the world in his non-fiction (more or less) Blind Descent, I shuddered at the thought of what he might do in fiction. But that sort of thing works better, I guess, in a novel like this, where the reader does not expect realism. I'm not much of a reader of this sort of book, and I won't seek out more, but it wasn't bad. --Bill Mixon Nature is a hanging judge. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Begin forwarded message: From: seileo...@gmail.com Date: April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT To: saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com Bcc: speleob...@comcast.net Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Hey, all, As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
I really wish that petition was worded more like his letter below. Cleaning your gear with hot water is NOT decontamination. Please wash your gear first AND then decontaminate by immersing in 122f water for 15 minutes. Jen From: speleob...@comcast.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:31:51 -0600 To: wilsonsofcolor...@yahoo.com; speleob...@comcast.net; mi...@fastwave.biz; grnpacav...@gmail.com; mike_dimat...@comcast.net; motoca...@gmail.com; regan...@nmsu.edu; tu...@sbcglobal.net; david.winn...@yahoo.com; karstpat...@gmail.com; wcwal...@zianet.com; robw...@wwdb.org; rambe...@zianet.com; jbac...@comcast.net; oldgru...@msn.com; elpasoca...@yahoo.com; lpeer...@lcsun-news.com; scottanderso...@yahoo.com; sarcave...@gmail.com; mike_bi...@blm.gov; nmba...@zianet.com; lee.t.wil...@gmail.com; katert...@comcast.net; rfos...@nmsu.edu; margaretwilso...@gmail.com; sldstev...@msn.com; siz...@hotmail.com; gra...@comcast.net; cor...@alum.dartmouth.org; gggr...@hotmail.com; dmartin...@gmail.com; gypca...@comcast.net; kver...@aol.com; hadl...@htg.net; mbbi...@yahoo.com; janice.tuc...@live.com; jkl...@yahoo.com; lawrence.r.fore...@saic.com; abthomi...@comcast.net; johnmo...@excite.com; forema...@saic.com; casto...@gmail.com; billgo...@gmail.com; mikelis...@msn.com; s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Begin forwarded message:From: seileo...@gmail.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT To: saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com Bcc: speleob...@comcast.net Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Hey, all, As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham Kathy peermanspeleob...@comcast.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: *Subject: **Petition to keep public caves open to the public* As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. *Human contributions to spread* can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/%21/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Jen, et. al., Yes, I questioned that too, but I signed the petition anyway and forwarded the e-mail to the Sandia Grotto list. Linda On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:02 PM, jen . bigredfo...@hotmail.com wrote: I really wish that petition was worded more like his letter below. Cleaning your gear with hot water is NOT decontamination. Please wash your gear first AND then decontaminate by immersing in 122f water for 15 minutes. Jen -- From: speleob...@comcast.net Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:31:51 -0600 To: wilsonsofcolor...@yahoo.com; speleob...@comcast.net; mi...@fastwave.biz; grnpacav...@gmail.com; mike_dimat...@comcast.net; motoca...@gmail.com; regan...@nmsu.edu; tu...@sbcglobal.net; david.winn...@yahoo.com; karstpat...@gmail.com; wcwal...@zianet.com; robw...@wwdb.org; rambe...@zianet.com; jbac...@comcast.net; oldgru...@msn.com; elpasoca...@yahoo.com; lpeer...@lcsun-news.com; scottanderso...@yahoo.com; sarcave...@gmail.com; mike_bi...@blm.gov; nmba...@zianet.com; lee.t.wil...@gmail.com; katert...@comcast.net; rfos...@nmsu.edu; margaretwilso...@gmail.com; sldstev...@msn.com; siz...@hotmail.com; gra...@comcast.net; cor...@alum.dartmouth.org; gggr...@hotmail.com; dmartin...@gmail.com; gypca...@comcast.net; kver...@aol.com; hadl...@htg.net; mbbi...@yahoo.com; janice.tuc...@live.com; jkl...@yahoo.com; lawrence.r.fore...@saic.com; abthomi...@comcast.net; johnmo...@excite.com; forema...@saic.com; casto...@gmail.com; billgo...@gmail.com; mikelis...@msn.com; s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Begin forwarded message: *From: *seileo...@gmail.com *Date: *April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT *To: *saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com *Bcc: *speleob...@comcast.net *Subject: **Petition to keep public caves open to the public* Hey, all, As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John
Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public
On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Carl Pagano wrote: It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open.
Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Though I admit that especially after working intimately with radioactive contamination (which is also invisible to the eye), I sometimes have a problem with suspending my disbelief with the WNS decontamination protocol, I do think that cavers are aware of how to clean ourselves. We are aware bats are THE vector for spreading WNS. But even if it is a one in a million chance that cavers (with no bat to human contact) could spread it, as cave conservationists, we need to not be that one in a million chance. Let's keep working towards a solution and not just fighting against people. Jen From: pagan...@comcast.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:02:00 -0600 To: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Carl Pagano wrote:It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they arerestricted to just one cave?The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote:
Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public
On 04/13/2012 15:15, jen . wrote: Though I admit that especially after working intimately with radioactive contamination (which is also invisible to the eye), I sometimes have a problem with suspending my disbelief with the WNS decontamination protocol, I do think that cavers are aware of how to clean ourselves. We are aware bats are THE vector for spreading WNS. But even if it is a one in a million chance that cavers (with no bat to human contact) could spread it, as cave conservationists, we need to not be that one in a million chance. Let's keep working towards a solution and not just fighting against people. Part of the solution is resisting interference and ignoring threats from groups like the CBD. On that note it is SO coincidental that just a few minutes ago another email came in where the CBD was shot down (again) by the EPA... On Monday, the Environmental Protection Agency denied for the second time a petition by the Center for Biological Diversity and other anti-hunting groups asking the EPA to impose a nationwide ban on the use of ammunition containing lead. The petition was essentially a repetition of a similar petition submitted by the CBD in 2010. The EPA found that the new petition was almost identical to the earlier petition, had no substantive difference, and contains no new information as compared to the earlier petition. If only the land managers had a spine and took a similar stand. Note the contains no new information language. That sure sounds a lot like the status of WNS. Will the CBD sue the EPA? Probably. There's money to be had. But, rather than caving in to a frivolous litigation group, the EPA basically told CBD to go pound sand. BLM, USFS, FWS and NPS could do the same but, as noted, it requires a spine. The threat of a lawsuit from CBD is always present (and is nearly a given)...that's how they operate and how they fund themselves. Remember, you can be sued anywhere, any time, by anyone regardless of whether the suit has merit or not. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Jeez, Steve, and here I was going to sign that petition just to feel like I was doing *something* to stop the CBD from controlling the situation. Dunham, whoever he is, says that CBD is petitioning the White House themselves to close all caves. If so, they are pissing in the wind as well, according to your view. However, if they get the upper hand by THEIR petition and we as cavers do nothing to stop their petition or at least counteract it with one of our own, then we're the ones who got pissed on downwind, not them. As a friend of a friend once said, don't get any on ya'…. This is sure a political hot button for everyone, no matter which side of the WNS and cave closure issue you come down on. Signing it, despite all its defects and whether it is effective or not, can't hurt and at least gives some of us the opportunity to voice an equally strong opinion about *not* closing down caves en masse. With all the money that some of the private commercial cave owners have (Luray, Howe, etc), it is highly unlikely that CBD will be able to close down all caves, no matter who owns them. You can stop the supposed human vector, as yet unproved, and leave it to the bats to do the spreading all by themselves as they seem to be doing a fine job of already. Alas, WNS was confirmed in Maine earlier this year and there are no commercial caves in our state and virtually no cavers to spread it. In fact, it showed up in mines, not caves and most cavers don't do mines anyway. Having said all that, I was very frustrated in trying to find a way to sign the damned thing as it was. I signed in but could never get back to the petition to sign it and couldn't find it anywhere once I was signed in. It's a conspiracy!!! It's those damned liberals….. Wait, I'm one of them. Yikes!!! Peter On Apr 13, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[Texascavers] Fwd: NSS Conservation Network - New USFWS WNS Decon Protocols
Hi all, Below is a new addition to the WNS decon protocols. Allan Sent with my fat thumbs on my iPhone Begin forwarded message: From: Steve Smith stevenlsm...@usa.net Date: April 13, 2012 12:09:12 AM CDT To: stevenlsm...@usa.net Subject: NSS Conservation Network - New USFWS WNS Decon Protocols From Jim Werker and Val Hildreth-Werker, NSS Conservation Division Co-Chairs (through the NSS Conservation Network - Steve Smith, Coordinator): We just received this information from Peter Youngbaer, NSS WNS Liaison, who requested that it be sent out on the NSS Conservation Network (NSSCN). Please pass the word out to the folks within your IO. Thanks! Jim Val . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service today, April 9, 2012, released their new cleaning and disinfecting protocols for dealing with White Nose Syndrome. A major new addition is a non-chemical hot water standard for disinfection: maintaining clothing and gear submerged in hot water at a sustained temperature of greater than 50 degrees Celsius (122 F) for more than 15 minutes. IMPORTANT: This hot water disinfecting is done AFTER completing the usual cleaning with surfactant, such as Woolite, and removal of organic material The full protocol can be found at: http://whitenosesyndrome.org/sites/default/files/resource/national_wns_decontamination_protocol_v_03.15.2012.pdf Peter Youngbaer White Nose Syndrome Liaison National Speleological Society (802) 272-3802 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . In my never-ending quest to keep the NSSCN E-Mail addressee list as current as possible, I'd appreciate it greatly if each IO would send me their druthers on who within the IO they'd like to receive this info. Usually, this info should go to the IO Conservation Chair, for subsequent forwarding out to their respective membership. If the IO does not have a designated Conservation Chair, then this info should go to the overall IO Chair. Please send me any addressee changes/updates due to IO internal elections, folks moving out of town, etc. Thanks! Steve Smith, NSSCN coordinator
[Cowtown] NSS Conservation Network - New USFWS WNS Decon Protocols
I spoke to Becky Jones of Gonzo Guano Gear (packs, harnesses, etc.) this morning about high temperature water and she says according to the cordage institute the tacky temperature for nylon is around 180 degrees F, so soaking in 122 degree F water for 15 minutes is probably not going to weaken the fibers in caving gear. Just to be sure about this issue, she will pass this question along to Steve Hudson of PMI and report if there is anything cavers should be concerned about. I would think (from a nonprofessional standpoint) that this new protocol is easier on the gear than chemicals, especially bleach. Getting dirt out from between the fibers is probably going to add usable time to the life of the gear by cutting down internal abrasion on the fibers. And no fungus to boot! From: Steve Smith stevenlsm...@usa.net Date: April 13, 2012 12:09:12 AM CDT To: stevenlsm...@usa.net Subject: NSS Conservation Network - New USFWS WNS Decon Protocols From Jim Werker and Val Hildreth-Werker, NSS Conservation Division Co-Chairs (through the NSS Conservation Network - Steve Smith, Coordinator): We just received this information from Peter Youngbaer, NSS WNS Liaison, who requested that it be sent out on the NSS Conservation Network (NSSCN). Please pass the word out to the folks within your IO. Thanks! Jim Val . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service today, April 9, 2012, released their new cleaning and disinfecting protocols for dealing with White Nose Syndrome. A major new addition is a non-chemical hot water standard for disinfection: maintaining clothing and gear submerged in hot water at a sustained temperature of greater than 50 degrees Celsius (122 F) for more than 15 minutes. IMPORTANT: This hot water disinfecting is done AFTER completing the usual cleaning with surfactant, such as Woolite, and removal of organic material The full protocol can be found at: http://whitenosesyndrome.org/sites/default/files/resource/national_wns_decontamination_protocol_v_03.15.2012.pdf Peter Youngbaer White Nose Syndrome Liaison National Speleological Society (802) 272-3802 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . In my never-ending quest to keep the NSSCN E-Mail addressee list as current as possible, I'd appreciate it greatly if each IO would send me their druthers on who within the IO they'd like to receive this info. Usually, this info should go to the IO Conservation Chair, for subsequent forwarding out to their respective membership. If the IO does not have a designated Conservation Chair, then this info should go to the overall IO Chair. Please send me any addressee changes/updates due to IO internal elections, folks moving out of town, etc. Thanks! Steve Smith, NSSCN coordinator
[Texascavers] CBD insanity
Petitioning to keep public caves open is the wrong thing to do, or at least not the best thing to do. We need to start an effective petition or “sanction” - to have the CBD shut, not caves. They have proven none of their absurd allegations, but they’ve clearly proven one thing - that they are uneducated, uninformed - and unconscionably and incorrigibly stupid. Jim Evatt
[SWR] Petitioning the wrong thing
Petitioning to keep public caves open is the wrong thing to do. We need to start an effective petition (petition is a Mafia word meaning rub out) - to HAVE THE CBD shut! E ^v^ att ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[Texascavers] Close all caves?
Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/ !/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F
Re: [Texascavers] Close all caves?
I wondered the same thing. This is the response I sent to the SWR list: It is true that CBD wants all federally-owned caves closed, but I can find no evidence that they are also seeking fines for private landowners who do not follow suit. Where did this information come from? Here are a couple of relevant web pages: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2012/white-nose-syndrome-04-11-2012.html, http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/center/articles/2012/summit-county-citizens-voice-04-12-2012.html. Before I ask anyone to sign the petition I'd like to know that the information is accurate. Thank you. Mark Minton At 03:42 PM 4/13/2012, Linda Palit wrote: Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[Texascavers] Re: Close all caves?
Center for Biological Diversity. Non- profit group suing the government. On Friday, April 13, 2012, Mark Minton wrote: I wondered the same thing. This is the response I sent to the SWR list: It is true that CBD wants all federally-owned caves closed, but I can find no evidence that they are also seeking fines for private landowners who do not follow suit. Where did this information come from? Here are a couple of relevant web pages: http://www.** biologicaldiversity.org/news/**press_releases/2012/white-** nose-syndrome-04-11-2012.htmlhttp://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2012/white-nose-syndrome-04-11-2012.html **, http://www.**biologicaldiversity.org/news/** center/articles/2012/summit-**county-citizens-voice-04-12-**2012.htmlhttp://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/center/articles/2012/summit-county-citizens-voice-04-12-2012.html. Before I ask anyone to sign the petition I'd like to know that the information is accurate. Thank you. Mark Minton At 03:42 PM 4/13/2012, Linda Palit wrote: Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/**petitions/!/petition/support-** conservation-recreation-**science-and-personal-freedom-** mandating-public-access-caves-**public/YX8Bjp3Fhttps://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org --**--**- Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Close all caves?
Is this the one where they spend all their donated money on lawyers to sue the government for more money to pay on lawyers, etc. What does BillM 'say'?: May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Stefan From: Linda Palit [mailto:linda.k.pa...@gmail.com] Center for Biological Diversity. Non- profit group suing the government. -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Re: [Texascavers] Close all caves?
USFWS issued the following response to the CBD petition last summer basically calling it ridiculous: http://nrmg.cavesofmontana.org/content/bats-wns/2011_07_USFWS-response-to-CBD.pdf I think this is a dead issue. Joe Sent from my iPhone On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:42 PM, Linda Palit linda.k.pa...@gmail.com wrote: Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F
RE: [Texascavers] Close all caves?
I have heard nothing so far from the FS and BLM out here. Of course, we're pretty far out here from known infectious areas. Louise Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 16:18:31 -0400 To: texascavers@texascavers.com From: mmin...@caver.net Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Close all caves? I wondered the same thing. This is the response I sent to the SWR list: It is true that CBD wants all federally-owned caves closed, but I can find no evidence that they are also seeking fines for private landowners who do not follow suit. Where did this information come from? Here are a couple of relevant web pages: http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/press_releases/2012/white-nose-syndrome-04-11-2012.html, http://www.biologicaldiversity.org/news/center/articles/2012/summit-county-citizens-voice-04-12-2012.html. Before I ask anyone to sign the petition I'd like to know that the information is accurate. Thank you. Mark Minton At 03:42 PM 4/13/2012, Linda Palit wrote: Forwarded from SWR As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Please reply to mmin...@caver.net Permanent email address is mmin...@illinoisalumni.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] Re: Close all caves?
As a BLM employee, let me say that groups like CBD keep us in court constantly be it because of fishers, spotted owls, TE plants, or other perceived threats. That's where a lot of your tax money is going...gov't lawyers defending agencies in court. I can appreciate groups like this trying to protect nature from the folly of man, but we're not all blazing idiots. Believe it or not, some of us actually have the same concerns and know what we're doing. Louise From: stefan.crea...@arm.com To: linda.k.pa...@gmail.com CC: texascavers@texascavers.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 13:40:16 -0700 Subject: RE: [Texascavers] Re: Close all caves? Is this the one where they spend all their donated money on lawyers to sue the government for more money to pay on lawyers, etc. What does BillM ‘say’?: May the last lawyer be strangled with the entrails of the last priest. --Stefan From: Linda Palit [mailto:linda.k.pa...@gmail.com] Center for Biological Diversity. Non- profit group suing the government. -- IMPORTANT NOTICE: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to any other person, use it for any purpose, or store or copy the information in any medium. Thank you.
Re: [SWR] [SPAM] - Petitioning the wrong thing
An idea...yea...but not functional or realistic. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE Phone -Original message- From: Jim Evatt nmca...@comcast.net To: s...@caver.net s...@caver.net Sent: 2012 Apr, Fri, 13 23:51:35 GMT+00:00 Subject: [SPAM] - [SWR] Petitioning the wrong thing Petitioning to keep public caves open is the wrong thing to do. We need to start an effective petition (petition is a Mafia word meaning rub out) - to HAVE THE CBD shut! E ^v^ att ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
[Texascavers] The Deep Zone review
The Deep Zone. James M. Tabor. Ballantine Books, New York; 2012. ISBN 978-0-345-53061-5. 6 by 9 inches, 418 pages, hardbound. $26.00. In this novel, a drug-resistant variant of a bacteria has symptoms similar to that of the Ebola virus and breaks out among hospitalized U.S. troops in Afghanistan. A bioluminescent moonmilk deep in a cave in Oaxaca, Mexico, may hold the cure. A good bit of the action takes place in the cave, and the author makes use of the knowledge he gained in writing Blind Descent about the exploration of deep caves. Some readers will recognize Llano Cheve and the entrance to Cueva Cheve, though not the cenote in the field. The cave does resemble Cheve, augmented by lethal concentrations of hydrogen sulfide gas and a long lake of sulfuric acid. The cave is called Cueva de Luz, similar to the name of Cueva de la Villa Luz in Tabasco that does feature those chemicals, although not to that extent. At least there are no fire- breathing monsters, but I suppose some could be written in when the movie is made. The book is an action thriller, I guess, of the James Bond variety, lots of guns and bad guys, though no really big explosions. The book might almost be called science fiction and fantasy in a few places, notably the vertical technique used, but a lot of background is based loosely on fact. Besides echos of Blind Descent and The Hot Zone, there are probably nods to other books I have not read. Sometimes I got the impression that some of the detail was included mainly to show off the author's research, but perhaps that's typical of the genre. As in Blind Descent, there are glitches, some of which should have been obvious to an editor without special knowledge. The thickness of 20 mils has become 20 millimeters. Can you imagine a hazmat suit made of 20 millimeter plastic? Given the way Tabor made caving sound like the most exciting and dangerous thing in the world in his non-fiction (more or less) Blind Descent, I shuddered at the thought of what he might do in fiction. But that sort of thing works better, I guess, in a novel like this, where the reader does not expect realism. I'm not much of a reader of this sort of book, and I won't seek out more, but it wasn't bad. --Bill Mixon Nature is a hanging judge. You may reply to the address this message came from, but for long-term use, save: Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu AMCS: edi...@amcs-pubs.org or sa...@amcs-pubs.org - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
[SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Begin forwarded message: From: seileo...@gmail.com Date: April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT To: saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com Bcc: speleob...@comcast.net Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Hey, all, As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
I really wish that petition was worded more like his letter below. Cleaning your gear with hot water is NOT decontamination. Please wash your gear first AND then decontaminate by immersing in 122f water for 15 minutes. Jen From: speleob...@comcast.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:31:51 -0600 To: wilsonsofcolor...@yahoo.com; speleob...@comcast.net; mi...@fastwave.biz; grnpacav...@gmail.com; mike_dimat...@comcast.net; motoca...@gmail.com; regan...@nmsu.edu; tu...@sbcglobal.net; david.winn...@yahoo.com; karstpat...@gmail.com; wcwal...@zianet.com; robw...@wwdb.org; rambe...@zianet.com; jbac...@comcast.net; oldgru...@msn.com; elpasoca...@yahoo.com; lpeer...@lcsun-news.com; scottanderso...@yahoo.com; sarcave...@gmail.com; mike_bi...@blm.gov; nmba...@zianet.com; lee.t.wil...@gmail.com; katert...@comcast.net; rfos...@nmsu.edu; margaretwilso...@gmail.com; sldstev...@msn.com; siz...@hotmail.com; gra...@comcast.net; cor...@alum.dartmouth.org; gggr...@hotmail.com; dmartin...@gmail.com; gypca...@comcast.net; kver...@aol.com; hadl...@htg.net; mbbi...@yahoo.com; janice.tuc...@live.com; jkl...@yahoo.com; lawrence.r.fore...@saic.com; abthomi...@comcast.net; johnmo...@excite.com; forema...@saic.com; casto...@gmail.com; billgo...@gmail.com; mikelis...@msn.com; s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Begin forwarded message:From: seileo...@gmail.com List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT To: saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com Bcc: speleob...@comcast.net Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Hey, all, As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham Kathy peermanspeleob...@comcast.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: *Subject: **Petition to keep public caves open to the public* As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. *Human contributions to spread* can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/%21/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Jen, et. al., Yes, I questioned that too, but I signed the petition anyway and forwarded the e-mail to the Sandia Grotto list. Linda On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 2:02 PM, jen . bigredfo...@hotmail.com wrote: I really wish that petition was worded more like his letter below. Cleaning your gear with hot water is NOT decontamination. Please wash your gear first AND then decontaminate by immersing in 122f water for 15 minutes. Jen -- From: speleob...@comcast.net Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 12:31:51 -0600 To: wilsonsofcolor...@yahoo.com; speleob...@comcast.net; mi...@fastwave.biz; grnpacav...@gmail.com; mike_dimat...@comcast.net; motoca...@gmail.com; regan...@nmsu.edu; tu...@sbcglobal.net; david.winn...@yahoo.com; karstpat...@gmail.com; wcwal...@zianet.com; robw...@wwdb.org; rambe...@zianet.com; jbac...@comcast.net; oldgru...@msn.com; elpasoca...@yahoo.com; lpeer...@lcsun-news.com; scottanderso...@yahoo.com; sarcave...@gmail.com; mike_bi...@blm.gov; nmba...@zianet.com; lee.t.wil...@gmail.com; katert...@comcast.net; rfos...@nmsu.edu; margaretwilso...@gmail.com; sldstev...@msn.com; siz...@hotmail.com; gra...@comcast.net; cor...@alum.dartmouth.org; gggr...@hotmail.com; dmartin...@gmail.com; gypca...@comcast.net; kver...@aol.com; hadl...@htg.net; mbbi...@yahoo.com; janice.tuc...@live.com; jkl...@yahoo.com; lawrence.r.fore...@saic.com; abthomi...@comcast.net; johnmo...@excite.com; forema...@saic.com; casto...@gmail.com; billgo...@gmail.com; mikelis...@msn.com; s...@caver.net Subject: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public Begin forwarded message: *From: *seileo...@gmail.com *Date: *April 13, 2012 9:16:01 AM MDT *To: *saltydigg...@yahoogroups.com, saltyrockeat...@yahoogroups.com, northeastcaveconserva...@yahoogroups.com, cavedigg...@yahoogroups.com *Bcc: *speleob...@comcast.net *Subject: **Petition to keep public caves open to the public* Hey, all, As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham Kathy Peerman speleob...@comcast.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John
Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public
On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Carl Pagano wrote: It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they are restricted to just one cave? The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open.
Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Though I admit that especially after working intimately with radioactive contamination (which is also invisible to the eye), I sometimes have a problem with suspending my disbelief with the WNS decontamination protocol, I do think that cavers are aware of how to clean ourselves. We are aware bats are THE vector for spreading WNS. But even if it is a one in a million chance that cavers (with no bat to human contact) could spread it, as cave conservationists, we need to not be that one in a million chance. Let's keep working towards a solution and not just fighting against people. Jen From: pagan...@comcast.net List-Post: texascavers@texascavers.com Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 15:02:00 -0600 To: s...@caver.net Subject: Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public On Apr 13, 2012, at 2:58 PM, Carl Pagano wrote:It is what I have been saying. There is NO scientific evidence that this is human spread. That involves work, including a control, and test group. After a conclusion has been reached, the experiment must be able to be repeated, several times, with the same results to support the original hypothesis. That humans as a vector of WNS? Prove it. It's much much easier to close caves, decontaminate your clothing, and then say that you've done all that you can, when even your hair probably carries the spores of WNS. Unless you want to cave in disposable gear, so that each time you enter the cave, you have on fresh, sterile, spore free gear, the effort is futile. How many can say that they have immersed their expensive caving helmet and lamp in decontaminant each and every time before they go into a cave? Washed your cave suit lately? You bet you have! Made you feel good that you were doing your part to contain WNS. BIG PROBLEM- you just put it back into the same dirty tote you got it out of. May look clean but guess again. You must put your stuff in a bag that has not touched any other surface suspected of carrying spores. That includes the back of your pick up truck you threw your expensive dusty caving helmet and gear into.. How many have decontaminated their vehicles? Tires, carpet, upholstery, roof liner, it all carries the same dirt from the last cave you were in. How about the dirt under your fingernails? Scrubbed your hands in decontaminate lately? Really scrubbed under those fingernails? You wash your hands, then pick up caving gear, decontaminate it, then pick it up again. Your gear is now dirty again because you just touched decontaminated gear with fingernails that still contain dirt under them, i.e. spores, if you ever had any in the first place. Now, does this sound completely and totally impossible to do? Yes it is. Therefore, the entire idea of decontaminating your gear is equally just a feel good measure. Pick up any medical book on sterile technique, then come back and still support the idea of field decontamination. It doesn't work. Same as a petition. Some individuals need a cause. Seems like the person mentioned below has found theirs, with complete disregard to fact or practicality. By the way, suppose you close all the caves? What are you going to do- stop the bats from going into them? Tell them to wipe their feet? How about a warm devon bath before flying out? Or that they arerestricted to just one cave?The entire thought is as ludicrous as a petition to close caves, decontamination, or any other hypothesis that is not supported by scientific, reproducible results. Pissing in the wind, tilting at windmills, call it what you like. All of this is simply emotion based bad science. Carl……. On Apr 13, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote:
Re: [SWR] Petition to keep public caves open to the public
On 04/13/2012 15:15, jen . wrote: Though I admit that especially after working intimately with radioactive contamination (which is also invisible to the eye), I sometimes have a problem with suspending my disbelief with the WNS decontamination protocol, I do think that cavers are aware of how to clean ourselves. We are aware bats are THE vector for spreading WNS. But even if it is a one in a million chance that cavers (with no bat to human contact) could spread it, as cave conservationists, we need to not be that one in a million chance. Let's keep working towards a solution and not just fighting against people. Part of the solution is resisting interference and ignoring threats from groups like the CBD. On that note it is SO coincidental that just a few minutes ago another email came in where the CBD was shot down (again) by the EPA... On Monday, the Environmental Protection Agency denied for the second time a petition by the Center for Biological Diversity and other anti-hunting groups asking the EPA to impose a nationwide ban on the use of ammunition containing lead. The petition was essentially a repetition of a similar petition submitted by the CBD in 2010. The EPA found that the new petition was almost identical to the earlier petition, had no substantive difference, and contains no new information as compared to the earlier petition. If only the land managers had a spine and took a similar stand. Note the contains no new information language. That sure sounds a lot like the status of WNS. Will the CBD sue the EPA? Probably. There's money to be had. But, rather than caving in to a frivolous litigation group, the EPA basically told CBD to go pound sand. BLM, USFS, FWS and NPS could do the same but, as noted, it requires a spine. The threat of a lawsuit from CBD is always present (and is nearly a given)...that's how they operate and how they fund themselves. Remember, you can be sued anywhere, any time, by anyone regardless of whether the suit has merit or not. ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
Re: [SWR] Fwd: Petition to keep public caves open to the public
Jeez, Steve, and here I was going to sign that petition just to feel like I was doing *something* to stop the CBD from controlling the situation. Dunham, whoever he is, says that CBD is petitioning the White House themselves to close all caves. If so, they are pissing in the wind as well, according to your view. However, if they get the upper hand by THEIR petition and we as cavers do nothing to stop their petition or at least counteract it with one of our own, then we're the ones who got pissed on downwind, not them. As a friend of a friend once said, don't get any on ya'…. This is sure a political hot button for everyone, no matter which side of the WNS and cave closure issue you come down on. Signing it, despite all its defects and whether it is effective or not, can't hurt and at least gives some of us the opportunity to voice an equally strong opinion about *not* closing down caves en masse. With all the money that some of the private commercial cave owners have (Luray, Howe, etc), it is highly unlikely that CBD will be able to close down all caves, no matter who owns them. You can stop the supposed human vector, as yet unproved, and leave it to the bats to do the spreading all by themselves as they seem to be doing a fine job of already. Alas, WNS was confirmed in Maine earlier this year and there are no commercial caves in our state and virtually no cavers to spread it. In fact, it showed up in mines, not caves and most cavers don't do mines anyway. Having said all that, I was very frustrated in trying to find a way to sign the damned thing as it was. I signed in but could never get back to the petition to sign it and couldn't find it anywhere once I was signed in. It's a conspiracy!!! It's those damned liberals….. Wait, I'm one of them. Yikes!!! Peter On Apr 13, 2012, at 1:44 PM, Stephen Fleming wrote: Total waste of time. CBD does not care one whit about public opinion. They are driven by the fact that they can reap millions in litigation. This is all about money, lots of it, and nothing more. Furthermore, whoever this guy Dunham is, he continues the misinformation by repeating (helpfully, to the CBD cause) that humans are a vector. That has never been demonstrated with any scientific evidence, after 6+ years of it being endlessly repeated as fact. Until the agencies grow a set and tell the CBD to go eff itself, nothing is going to change. Everything about the petition is 'feel good' and appealing to emotion/caver-logic viewpoint, and the pleas contained therein are of no interest to the politicos or litigants. Money talks; cavers are not even a blip on the money screen. Anyone who thinks the White House really thinks your opinion is important on any petition of this sort only needs to view prior petitions on any topic of your choosing to see how they pretty much all turn out. This is pissing in the wind. On 04/13/2012 12:31, Kathy Peerman wrote: Begin forwarded message: Subject: Petition to keep public caves open to the public As you may know, the CBD is petitioning the White House to close all public caves and fine private landowners who keep their caves open. This is a serious threat to the caves, which are often vandalized when responsible visitation is removed, and does nothing to protect the bats since WNS is spread bat-to-bat. Human contributions to spread can be effectively controlled with decon, assuming a human vector ever existed. Closing publicly owned caves to the public is a threat to conservation, a limitation of freedom, and is based on bad science, and I am tired of not standing up to say that. If you support this cause, please sign this counter petition to keep the caves open. https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/support-conservation-recreation-science-and-personal-freedom-mandating-public-access-caves-public/YX8Bjp3F Sincerely, John Dunham ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net ___ SWR mailing list s...@caver.net http://caver.net/mailman/listinfo/swr_caver.net
