Re: [Texascavers] Authors of Scientific Articles

2016-08-31 Thread Logan McNatt via Texascavers 

  
  
Mr. Mixon just loves to poke at the scientists on this list
  because he knows he'll get a reaction (especially from Diana!).
  I've enjoyed the explanations and comments from her and others.
  The Texas caver family includes quite a few scientists in a
  variety of fields, many of them karst related. Their research and
  discoveries make the news fairly often (e.g. aquifers, hydrology,
  blind fish and other endangered species, long/deep caves and cave
  dives, etc). I think it's great that the rest of us have an
  opportunity to know these people, support some of them in their
  fieldwork, and often are among the first to learn about their
  findings at Grotto meetings.  The more we learn from them about
  karst geology, hydrology, biology, astronomy, etc., the more
  interesting and fun caving is! (Just kidding about
astronomy.)

Logan McNatt
lmcn...@austin.rr.com

On Aug 31, 2016 Bill Mixon wrote
Wow! Fourteen alleged authors for an article with eight paragraphs.
How many of those people do you think were really authors, i.e.,
writers? How many of them were just bottle washers? -- Mixon

  

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Re: [Texascavers] Grutas del Carrizal

2016-08-31 Thread Bruce Anderson via Texascavers 
Donna and I went into Cueva de Carizal years ago I think in the early 80’s.  We 
both wore respirators and did not get sick and we were in the stream and upper 
passages.  Later we were both tested and showed a resistance to histo.  But 
again we had been in many bat caves.  Since that time there have been numerous 
cases of cavers getting sick after visiting this cave.

 

Bruce

 

From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of 
Nico Escamilla via Texascavers
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 4:50 PM
To: texascavers@texascavers.com
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Grutas del Carrizal

 

just a few months ago a boy scout troop visited the cave and many kids got 
histo.. 

 

El ago. 31, 2016 3:16 PM, "Gill Ediger via Texascavers" 
 > escribió:

Moni--I would suggest that you not visit Cueva de Carrizal and not take or send 
anyone else there. There have been sufficient incidents  of people getting 
histoplasmosis to warn them there is a danger of contacting a lung fungus. Only 
people with a known or demonstrated resistance to histo should visit that cave. 

--Ediger

 

On Saturday, August 27, 2016 1:31 AM, Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología 
AC. via Texascavers  > wrote:

 

thank you Bill, is a wonderful information... but is all the investigation the 
cavers did in this cave, no more a recently years?

 

Moni

 

2016-08-26 20:13 GMT-05:00 Mixon Bill via Texascavers 
 >:

Moni -- Map of Grutta de Carrizal is at
http://www.mexicancaves.org/ maps/1825.pdf 
 

Original description of the cave is in AMCS bulletin 1
http://www.mexicancaves.org/ bul/bul1.pdf 
  (~100 MB)

There is a long article on drowning accident in Carrizal in old AMCS Newsletter 
vol 3 #4, at
http://www.mexicancaves.org/ nl/AMCS_NL_V3.pdf 
 

--Mixon
-- --
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(unless it's a TexasCavers list post)
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Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu  
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sa...@mexicancaves.org  

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-- 

LCC. MÓNICA GRISSEL PONCE GONZÁLEZ

Coordinadora de la Comisión Internacional de Técnicas y Materiales de la UIS

Instructor Nacional Certificado de Espeleología por la FMAS

Directora de MP- Mex Caving 

Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología, A.C. (Fundadora)

Asociación Italiana Geográfica La Venta (Socia)

Centro de Estudios Kársticos La Venta (Socia)

Grupo Espeleológico Vaxakmen, A.C. (Socia)

Grupo Espeleológico EspeleoZots en Chetumal (Asesora)

Grupo Pionero de Espeleología en Sonora  (Asesora)

Association for Mexican Cave Studies (Colaboradora)

Texas Speleological Association (Socia)

Unión Mexicana de Agrupaciones Espeleológicas (Socia)

 



 



 

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Re: [Texascavers] Grutas del Carrizal

2016-08-31 Thread Nico Escamilla via Texascavers 
just a few months ago a boy scout troop visited the cave and many kids got
histo..

El ago. 31, 2016 3:16 PM, "Gill Ediger via Texascavers" <
texascavers@texascavers.com> escribió:

> Moni--I would suggest that you not visit Cueva de Carrizal and not take or
> send anyone else there. There have been sufficient incidents  of people
> getting histoplasmosis to warn them there is a danger of contacting a lung
> fungus. Only people with a known or demonstrated resistance to histo should
> visit that cave.
> --Ediger
>
>
> On Saturday, August 27, 2016 1:31 AM, Asociación Coahuilense de
> Espeleología AC. via Texascavers  wrote:
>
>
> thank you Bill, is a wonderful information... but is all the investigation
> the cavers did in this cave, no more a recently years?
>
> Moni
>
> 2016-08-26 20:13 GMT-05:00 Mixon Bill via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com>:
>
> Moni -- Map of Grutta de Carrizal is at
> http://www.mexicancaves.org/ maps/1825.pdf
> 
>
> Original description of the cave is in AMCS bulletin 1
> http://www.mexicancaves.org/ bul/bul1.pdf
>  (~100 MB)
>
> There is a long article on drowning accident in Carrizal in old AMCS
> Newsletter vol 3 #4, at
> http://www.mexicancaves.org/ nl/AMCS_NL_V3.pdf
> 
>
> --Mixon
> -- --
> Always forgive your enemies after they are hanged.
> -- --
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> (unless it's a TexasCavers list post)
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org
>
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> texascavers@texascavers.com/
> 
> http://lists.texascavers.com/ listinfo/texascavers
> 
>
>
>
>
> --
> LCC. MÓNICA GRISSEL PONCE GONZÁLEZ
> Coordinadora de la Comisión Internacional de Técnicas y Materiales de la
> UIS
> Instructor Nacional Certificado de Espeleología por la FMAS
> Directora de MP- Mex Caving
> Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología, A.C. (Fundadora)
> Asociación Italiana Geográfica La Venta (Socia)
> Centro de Estudios Kársticos La Venta (Socia)
> Grupo Espeleológico Vaxakmen, A.C. (Socia)
> Grupo Espeleológico EspeleoZots en Chetumal (Asesora)
> Grupo Pionero de Espeleología en Sonora  (Asesora)
> Association for Mexican Cave Studies (Colaboradora)
> Texas Speleological Association (Socia)
> Unión Mexicana de Agrupaciones Espeleológicas (Socia)
>
>
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Re: [Texascavers] Grutas del Carrizal

2016-08-31 Thread Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología AC . via Texascavers 
Gill thank you.

The situation is this.. The Secretary of Tourism create a project to use
the cave for tourism, they tender a project of ecotourism and
sustainability in the cave. A constructor win the tender.

The cave have an  incident in the month of march, 25 people (teachers and
students scouts) are sick all of them. But the woman of SECTUR said she
visit there and not have fungus...
They ask me if I can make a test,  I said yes. the Dr. Biologist from UANL
 Javier Banda and Sergi Gomez they will help me to do this test.. The next
week I will visit the cave with a security level 3 (is high)  to take some
samples of  soil  and air, to send a laboratory.

With the result of that test,  we can close the cave, if we don´t do that.
They can open the cave for tourism an is a bad idea.

Monica Ponce

2016-08-31 15:16 GMT-05:00 Gill Ediger via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com>:

> Moni--I would suggest that you not visit Cueva de Carrizal and not take or
> send anyone else there. There have been sufficient incidents  of people
> getting histoplasmosis to warn them there is a danger of contacting a lung
> fungus. Only people with a known or demonstrated resistance to histo should
> visit that cave.
> --Ediger
>
>
> On Saturday, August 27, 2016 1:31 AM, Asociación Coahuilense de
> Espeleología AC. via Texascavers  wrote:
>
>
> thank you Bill, is a wonderful information... but is all the investigation
> the cavers did in this cave, no more a recently years?
>
> Moni
>
> 2016-08-26 20:13 GMT-05:00 Mixon Bill via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com>:
>
> Moni -- Map of Grutta de Carrizal is at
> http://www.mexicancaves.org/ maps/1825.pdf
> 
>
> Original description of the cave is in AMCS bulletin 1
> http://www.mexicancaves.org/ bul/bul1.pdf
>  (~100 MB)
>
>
> There is a long article on drowning accident in Carrizal in old AMCS
> Newsletter vol 3 #4, at
> http://www.mexicancaves.org/ nl/AMCS_NL_V3.pdf
> 
>
> --Mixon
> -- --
> Always forgive your enemies after they are hanged.
> -- --
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> (unless it's a TexasCavers list post)
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org
>
> __ _
> Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com
> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/
> texascavers@texascavers.com/
> 
> http://lists.texascavers.com/ listinfo/texascavers
> 
>
>
>
>
> --
> LCC. MÓNICA GRISSEL PONCE GONZÁLEZ
> Coordinadora de la Comisión Internacional de Técnicas y Materiales de la
> UIS
> Instructor Nacional Certificado de Espeleología por la FMAS
> Directora de MP- Mex Caving
> Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología, A.C. (Fundadora)
> Asociación Italiana Geográfica La Venta (Socia)
> Centro de Estudios Kársticos La Venta (Socia)
> Grupo Espeleológico Vaxakmen, A.C. (Socia)
> Grupo Espeleológico EspeleoZots en Chetumal (Asesora)
> Grupo Pionero de Espeleología en Sonora  (Asesora)
> Association for Mexican Cave Studies (Colaboradora)
> Texas Speleological Association (Socia)
> Unión Mexicana de Agrupaciones Espeleológicas (Socia)
>
>
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>


-- 

LCC. MÓNICA GRISSEL PONCE GONZÁLEZ

Coordinadora de la Comisión Internacional de Técnicas y Materiales de la UIS

Instructor Nacional Certificado de Espeleología por la FMAS

Directora de MP- Mex Caving

Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología, A.C. (Fundadora)

Asociación Italiana Geográfica La Venta (Socia)

Centro de Estudios Kársticos La Venta (Socia)

Grupo Espeleológico Vaxakmen, A.C. (Socia)

Grupo Espeleológico EspeleoZots en Chetumal (Asesora)

Grupo Pionero de Espeleología en Sonora  (Asesora)

Association for Mexican Cave Studies (Colaboradora)

Texas Speleological Association (Socia)

Unión Mexicana de Agrupaciones Espeleológicas (Socia)
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Re: [Texascavers] Authors of scientific articles

2016-08-31 Thread Don Arburn via Texascavers 
Hey! You two get a room!


--Don

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 3:15 PM, Bill Steele via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
> 
> You're so cute.
> 
>> On Aug 31, 2016, at 3:13 PM, Diana Tomchick via Texascavers 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Oddly enough, this afternoon I received a form that I need to fill out in 
>> order to have a paper reviewed in eLife, an Open Access journal.
>> 
>> The form is entitled, "eLife’s transparent reporting form.”
>> 
>> It consists of detailed questions about how the data was collected, analyzed 
>> and any statistical analysis performed on the data.
>> 
>> This is information that is required from the authors, not from the people 
>> cited in the acknowledgements.
>> 
>> I refer interested parties to the following web site:
>> 
>> https://elifesciences.org/elife-news/elife-method-and-methodology-data-collection
>> 
>> I love y’all as cavers, but please, if you’re going to pass judgement on 
>> scientific publishing, try to think about how scientific publishing is done 
>> nowadays, and realize that for different fields, there are different methods 
>> of data collection. Not to mention the rapidly changing field of open versus 
>> closed access publication—this stuff is changing almost under our feet.
>> 
>> Diana
>> 
>> **
>> Diana R. Tomchick
>> Professor
>> Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
>> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
>> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
>> Rm. ND10.214A
>> Dallas, TX 75390-8816
>> diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
>> (214) 645-6383 (phone)
>> (214) 645-6353 (fax)
>> 
>>> On Aug 31, 2016, at 2:57 PM, texascavers@texascavers.com wrote:
>>> 
>>> As a scientist, I generally agree with the need for multiple "authors",
>>> including people who had nothing to do with actually writing an article.
>>> However it does seem to have gotten a bit out of control and now people
>>> are listed as authors who should more correctly be listed in the
>>> Acknowledgments.
>>> As cavers, we do not follow this trend. Caving articles, even about
>>> whole expeditions, are usually authored by no more than three people,
>>> and usually just one or two. Typically every member of the expedition
>>> was important, and they should be mentioned by name in the text, but I
>>> don't think they should be listed as authors.
>>> 
>>> Geary,
>>> Long lists of authors have been a hallmark of physics papers for
>>> decades. I have a paper from 1989 (Physical Review Letters) with 188
>>> authors. The list took up the entire first page of the article. And that
>>> was long before the CERN Large Hadron Collider came into being. As huge
>>> collaborations in physics and astronomy become more common, long author
>>> lists are, sadly, likely to become ever more common.
>>> 
>>> Mark Minton
>>> mmin...@caver.net
>>> 
 On Wed, August 31, 2016 1:46 pm, via Texascavers wrote:
 That said, it is often the case that the relative value of an article is
 inversely proportional to the number of authors cited. Given the current
 frenzy to publish and be recognized for Pd work, it would not be
 surprising if the number of authors exceeded the length of the article.
 
 Jerry Atkinson.
 
> On Wed, August 31, 2016 1:27 pm, Geary Schindel via Texascavers wrote:
> Diana,
> 
> Very well said, I was thinking of replying also but you hit the nail on
> the head. Most research these days are a collaboration between many
> scientists and laboratories. I think the best example I've seen is some
> of the Super Collider work that might have 150 authors for a paper.
> 
> Geary Schindel
> gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Texascavers On Behalf Of Diana Tomchick via Texascavers
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:16 PM
> To: Cave Tex
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] White-Nose Syndrome in PNW scientific article
> 
> Let me clarify what constitutes authorship on a scientific article.
> 
> It does not necessarily mean that a person wrote one of the paragraphs.
> In fact, in the future we may have artificial intelligence to thank for
> writing much of the routine text in our articles and technical manuals.
> 
> It DOES mean that an author is a person that is responsible for one or
> more of the following:
> 
> Coming up with the original idea (i.e., the hypothesis) for the
> experiment Collecting data Analyzing data Presenting data (in graphical,
> written or other forms such as videos, etc.) Supervising the people that
> collect, analyze and present the data Drawing important conclusions from
> the data and testing new hypotheses that result from this all-important
> step Writing the text of the final document
> 
> You want and NEED all of these people to be listed as authors-as they
> are the ones that are legitimately

Re: [Texascavers] Grutas del Carrizal

2016-08-31 Thread Gill Ediger via Texascavers 
Moni--I would suggest that you not visit Cueva de Carrizal and not take or send 
anyone else there. There have been sufficient incidents  of people getting 
histoplasmosis to warn them there is a danger of contacting a lung fungus. Only 
people with a known or demonstrated resistance to histo should visit that cave. 
--Ediger 

On Saturday, August 27, 2016 1:31 AM, Asociación Coahuilense de 
Espeleología AC. via Texascavers  wrote:
 

 thank you Bill, is a wonderful information... but is all the investigation the 
cavers did in this cave, no more a recently years?
Moni
2016-08-26 20:13 GMT-05:00 Mixon Bill via Texascavers 
:

Moni -- Map of Grutta de Carrizal is at
http://www.mexicancaves.org/ maps/1825.pdf

Original description of the cave is in AMCS bulletin 1
http://www.mexicancaves.org/ bul/bul1.pdf (~100 MB)

There is a long article on drowning accident in Carrizal in old AMCS Newsletter 
vol 3 #4, at
http://www.mexicancaves.org/ nl/AMCS_NL_V3.pdf

--Mixon
-- --
Always forgive your enemies after they are hanged.
-- --
You may "reply" to the address this message
(unless it's a TexasCavers list post)
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org

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texascavers@texascavers.com/
http://lists.texascavers.com/ listinfo/texascavers




-- 
LCC. MÓNICA GRISSEL PONCE GONZÁLEZCoordinadorade la Comisión Internacional de 
Técnicas y Materiales de la UISInstructorNacional Certificado de Espeleología 
por la FMASDirectora de MP- MexCaving Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología, 
A.C. (Fundadora)Asociación Italiana Geográfica La Venta (Socia)Centro 
deEstudios Kársticos La Venta (Socia)Grupo EspeleológicoVaxakmen, A.C. 
(Socia)Grupo EspeleológicoEspeleoZots en Chetumal (Asesora)Grupo Pionero de 
Espeleología en Sonora  (Asesora)Association for Mexican Cave Studies 
(Colaboradora)Texas Speleological Association (Socia)Unión Mexicana de 
Agrupaciones Espeleológicas (Socia)

|  |  |  |  |  |  |


|


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Re: [Texascavers] Authors of scientific articles

2016-08-31 Thread Bill Steele via Texascavers 
You're so cute.

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 3:13 PM, Diana Tomchick via Texascavers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Oddly enough, this afternoon I received a form that I need to fill out in 
> order to have a paper reviewed in eLife, an Open Access journal.
> 
> The form is entitled, "eLife’s transparent reporting form.”
> 
> It consists of detailed questions about how the data was collected, analyzed 
> and any statistical analysis performed on the data.
> 
> This is information that is required from the authors, not from the people 
> cited in the acknowledgements.
> 
> I refer interested parties to the following web site:
> 
> https://elifesciences.org/elife-news/elife-method-and-methodology-data-collection
> 
> I love y’all as cavers, but please, if you’re going to pass judgement on 
> scientific publishing, try to think about how scientific publishing is done 
> nowadays, and realize that for different fields, there are different methods 
> of data collection. Not to mention the rapidly changing field of open versus 
> closed access publication—this stuff is changing almost under our feet.
> 
> Diana
> 
> **
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Professor
> Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
> University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> Rm. ND10.214A
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816
> diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
> (214) 645-6383 (phone)
> (214) 645-6353 (fax)
> 
>> On Aug 31, 2016, at 2:57 PM, texascavers@texascavers.com wrote:
>> 
>> As a scientist, I generally agree with the need for multiple "authors",
>> including people who had nothing to do with actually writing an article.
>> However it does seem to have gotten a bit out of control and now people
>> are listed as authors who should more correctly be listed in the
>> Acknowledgments.
>> As cavers, we do not follow this trend. Caving articles, even about
>> whole expeditions, are usually authored by no more than three people,
>> and usually just one or two. Typically every member of the expedition
>> was important, and they should be mentioned by name in the text, but I
>> don't think they should be listed as authors.
>> 
>> Geary,
>> Long lists of authors have been a hallmark of physics papers for
>> decades. I have a paper from 1989 (Physical Review Letters) with 188
>> authors. The list took up the entire first page of the article. And that
>> was long before the CERN Large Hadron Collider came into being. As huge
>> collaborations in physics and astronomy become more common, long author
>> lists are, sadly, likely to become ever more common.
>> 
>> Mark Minton
>> mmin...@caver.net
>> 
>>> On Wed, August 31, 2016 1:46 pm, via Texascavers wrote:
>>> That said, it is often the case that the relative value of an article is
>>> inversely proportional to the number of authors cited. Given the current
>>> frenzy to publish and be recognized for Pd work, it would not be
>>> surprising if the number of authors exceeded the length of the article.
>>> 
>>> Jerry Atkinson.
>>> 
 On Wed, August 31, 2016 1:27 pm, Geary Schindel via Texascavers wrote:
 Diana,
 
 Very well said, I was thinking of replying also but you hit the nail on
 the head. Most research these days are a collaboration between many
 scientists and laboratories. I think the best example I've seen is some
 of the Super Collider work that might have 150 authors for a paper.
 
 Geary Schindel
 gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Texascavers On Behalf Of Diana Tomchick via Texascavers
 Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:16 PM
 To: Cave Tex
 Subject: Re: [Texascavers] White-Nose Syndrome in PNW scientific article
 
 Let me clarify what constitutes authorship on a scientific article.
 
 It does not necessarily mean that a person wrote one of the paragraphs.
 In fact, in the future we may have artificial intelligence to thank for
 writing much of the routine text in our articles and technical manuals.
 
 It DOES mean that an author is a person that is responsible for one or
 more of the following:
 
 Coming up with the original idea (i.e., the hypothesis) for the
 experiment Collecting data Analyzing data Presenting data (in graphical,
 written or other forms such as videos, etc.) Supervising the people that
 collect, analyze and present the data Drawing important conclusions from
 the data and testing new hypotheses that result from this all-important
 step Writing the text of the final document
 
 You want and NEED all of these people to be listed as authors-as they
 are the ones that are legitimately responsible for the final published
 work. If there are any questions about what is presented in the work,
 everyone knows who is responsible.
 
 We call this transparency, which unfortunately is lacking in other
 important human

Re: [Texascavers] Authors of scientific articles

2016-08-31 Thread Diana Tomchick via Texascavers 
Oddly enough, this afternoon I received a form that I need to fill out in order 
to have a paper reviewed in eLife, an Open Access journal.

The form is entitled, "eLife’s transparent reporting form.”

It consists of detailed questions about how the data was collected, analyzed 
and any statistical analysis performed on the data.

This is information that is required from the authors, not from the people 
cited in the acknowledgements.

I refer interested parties to the following web site:

https://elifesciences.org/elife-news/elife-method-and-methodology-data-collection

I love y’all as cavers, but please, if you’re going to pass judgement on 
scientific publishing, try to think about how scientific publishing is done 
nowadays, and realize that for different fields, there are different methods of 
data collection. Not to mention the rapidly changing field of open versus 
closed access publication—this stuff is changing almost under our feet.

Diana

**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 2:57 PM, texascavers@texascavers.com wrote:
>
>  As a scientist, I generally agree with the need for multiple "authors",
> including people who had nothing to do with actually writing an article.
> However it does seem to have gotten a bit out of control and now people
> are listed as authors who should more correctly be listed in the
> Acknowledgments.
>  As cavers, we do not follow this trend. Caving articles, even about
> whole expeditions, are usually authored by no more than three people,
> and usually just one or two. Typically every member of the expedition
> was important, and they should be mentioned by name in the text, but I
> don't think they should be listed as authors.
>
> Geary,
>  Long lists of authors have been a hallmark of physics papers for
> decades. I have a paper from 1989 (Physical Review Letters) with 188
> authors. The list took up the entire first page of the article. And that
> was long before the CERN Large Hadron Collider came into being. As huge
> collaborations in physics and astronomy become more common, long author
> lists are, sadly, likely to become ever more common.
>
> Mark Minton
> mmin...@caver.net
>
> On Wed, August 31, 2016 1:46 pm, via Texascavers wrote:
>> That said, it is often the case that the relative value of an article is
>> inversely proportional to the number of authors cited. Given the current
>> frenzy to publish and be recognized for Pd work, it would not be
>> surprising if the number of authors exceeded the length of the article.
>>
>> Jerry Atkinson.
>>
>> On Wed, August 31, 2016 1:27 pm, Geary Schindel via Texascavers wrote:
>>> Diana,
>>>
>>> Very well said, I was thinking of replying also but you hit the nail on
>>> the head. Most research these days are a collaboration between many
>>> scientists and laboratories. I think the best example I've seen is some
>>> of the Super Collider work that might have 150 authors for a paper.
>>>
>>> Geary Schindel
>>> gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Texascavers On Behalf Of Diana Tomchick via Texascavers
>>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:16 PM
>>> To: Cave Tex
>>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] White-Nose Syndrome in PNW scientific article
>>>
>>> Let me clarify what constitutes authorship on a scientific article.
>>>
>>> It does not necessarily mean that a person wrote one of the paragraphs.
>>> In fact, in the future we may have artificial intelligence to thank for
>>> writing much of the routine text in our articles and technical manuals.
>>>
>>> It DOES mean that an author is a person that is responsible for one or
>>> more of the following:
>>>
>>> Coming up with the original idea (i.e., the hypothesis) for the
>>> experiment Collecting data Analyzing data Presenting data (in graphical,
>>> written or other forms such as videos, etc.) Supervising the people that
>>> collect, analyze and present the data Drawing important conclusions from
>>> the data and testing new hypotheses that result from this all-important
>>> step Writing the text of the final document
>>>
>>> You want and NEED all of these people to be listed as authors-as they
>>> are the ones that are legitimately responsible for the final published
>>> work. If there are any questions about what is presented in the work,
>>> everyone knows who is responsible.
>>>
>>> We call this transparency, which unfortunately is lacking in other
>>> important human endeavors.
>>>
>>> Diana
>>>
>>> **
>>> Diana R. Tomchick
>>> Professor
>>> Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry University of Texas
>>> Southwestern Medical Center
>>> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
>>> Rm. ND10.214A
>>> Dallas, TX

Re: [Texascavers] Authors of scientific articles

2016-08-31 Thread Mark Minton via Texascavers 
  As a scientist, I generally agree with the need for multiple "authors",
including people who had nothing to do with actually writing an article.
However it does seem to have gotten a bit out of control and now people
are listed as authors who should more correctly be listed in the
Acknowledgments.
  As cavers, we do not follow this trend. Caving articles, even about
whole expeditions, are usually authored by no more than three people,
and usually just one or two. Typically every member of the expedition
was important, and they should be mentioned by name in the text, but I
don't think they should be listed as authors.

Geary,
  Long lists of authors have been a hallmark of physics papers for
decades. I have a paper from 1989 (Physical Review Letters) with 188
authors. The list took up the entire first page of the article. And that
was long before the CERN Large Hadron Collider came into being. As huge
collaborations in physics and astronomy become more common, long author
lists are, sadly, likely to become ever more common.

Mark Minton
mmin...@caver.net

On Wed, August 31, 2016 1:46 pm, via Texascavers wrote:
> That said, it is often the case that the relative value of an article is
> inversely proportional to the number of authors cited. Given the current
> frenzy to publish and be recognized for Pd work, it would not be
> surprising if the number of authors exceeded the length of the article.
>
> Jerry Atkinson.
>
> On Wed, August 31, 2016 1:27 pm, Geary Schindel via Texascavers wrote:
>> Diana,
>>
>> Very well said, I was thinking of replying also but you hit the nail on
>> the head. Most research these days are a collaboration between many
>> scientists and laboratories. I think the best example I've seen is some
>> of the Super Collider work that might have 150 authors for a paper.
>>
>> Geary Schindel
>> gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Texascavers On Behalf Of Diana Tomchick via Texascavers
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:16 PM
>> To: Cave Tex
>> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] White-Nose Syndrome in PNW scientific article
>>
>> Let me clarify what constitutes authorship on a scientific article.
>>
>> It does not necessarily mean that a person wrote one of the paragraphs.
>> In fact, in the future we may have artificial intelligence to thank for
>> writing much of the routine text in our articles and technical manuals.
>>
>> It DOES mean that an author is a person that is responsible for one or
>> more of the following:
>>
>> Coming up with the original idea (i.e., the hypothesis) for the
>> experiment Collecting data Analyzing data Presenting data (in graphical,
>> written or other forms such as videos, etc.) Supervising the people that
>> collect, analyze and present the data Drawing important conclusions from
>> the data and testing new hypotheses that result from this all-important
>> step Writing the text of the final document
>>
>> You want and NEED all of these people to be listed as authors-as they
>> are the ones that are legitimately responsible for the final published
>> work. If there are any questions about what is presented in the work,
>> everyone knows who is responsible.
>>
>> We call this transparency, which unfortunately is lacking in other
>> important human endeavors.
>>
>> Diana
>>
>> **
>> Diana R. Tomchick
>> Professor
>> Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry University of Texas
>> Southwestern Medical Center
>> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
>> Rm. ND10.214A
>> Dallas, TX 75390-8816
>> diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
>> (214) 645-6383 (phone)
>> (214) 645-6353 (fax)
>>
>>> On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Cavers Texas wrote:
>>>
>>> Wow! Fourteen alleged authors for an article with eight paragraphs.
>>> How many of those people do you think were really authors, i.e.,
>>> writers? How many of them were just bottle washers? -- Mixon

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Re: [Texascavers] White-Nose Syndrome in PNW scientific article

2016-08-31 Thread via Texascavers 
That said, it is often the case that the relative value of an article is 
inversely proportional to the number of authors cited. Given the current frenzy 
to publish and be recognized for Pd work, it would not be surprising if the 
number of authors exceeded the length of the article.

Jerry Atkinson.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Geary Schindel via Texascavers 
 wrote:

> Diana,
> 
> Very well said, I was thinking of replying also but you hit the nail on the 
> head. Most research these days are a collaboration between many scientists 
> and laboratories. I think the best example I've seen is some of the Super 
> Collider work that might have 150 authors for a paper. 
> 
> Geary Schindel
> gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of 
> Diana Tomchick via Texascavers
> Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:16 PM
> To: Cave Tex 
> Subject: Re: [Texascavers] White-Nose Syndrome in PNW scientific article
> 
> Let me clarify what constitutes authorship on a scientific article.
> 
> It does not necessarily mean that a person wrote one of the paragraphs. In 
> fact, in the future we may have artificial intelligence to thank for writing 
> much of the routine text in our articles and technical manuals.
> 
> It DOES mean that an author is a person that is responsible for one or more 
> of the following:
> 
> Coming up with the original idea (i.e., the hypothesis) for the experiment 
> Collecting data Analyzing data Presenting data (in graphical, written or 
> other forms such as videos, etc.) Supervising the people that collect, 
> analyze and present the data Drawing important conclusions from the data and 
> testing new hypotheses that result from this all-important step Writing the 
> text of the final document
> 
> You want and NEED all of these people to be listed as authors—as they are the 
> ones that are legitimately responsible for the final published work. If there 
> are any questions about what is presented in the work, everyone knows who is 
> responsible.
> 
> We call this transparency, which unfortunately is lacking in other important 
> human endeavors.
> 
> Diana
> 
> **
> Diana R. Tomchick
> Professor
> Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry University of Texas Southwestern 
> Medical Center
> 5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
> Rm. ND10.214A
> Dallas, TX 75390-8816
> diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
> (214) 645-6383 (phone)
> (214) 645-6353 (fax)
> 
>> On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Cavers Texas  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Wow! Fourteen alleged authors for an article with eight paragraphs. 
>> How many of those people do you think were really authors, i.e., 
>> writers? How many of them were just bottle washers? -- Mixon
>> 
>> Always forgive your enemies after they are hanged.
>> 
>> You may "reply" to the address this message (unless it's a TexasCavers 
>> list post) came from, but for long-term use, save:
>> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
>> AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org
>> 
>> ___
>> Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com 
>> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: 
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
>> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> UT Southwestern
> 
> 
> Medical Center
> 
> 
> 
> The future of medicine, today.
> 
> ___
> Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com Texascavers@texascavers.com 
> | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers

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Re: [Texascavers] New Restoration projects at Carlsbad Caverns starting soon

2016-08-31 Thread Karen Perry via Texascavers 
The Park has had its good times and the bad. Its recovering from BAD! The new 
Resource person  is a hoot and howler to work with. And he is more caver 
friendly that the last bunch. There are 50 back country caves that have never 
been surveyed and he wants to get that done. And maybe even resurvey some that 
were done but never checked or completed. So folks with the right skill levels 
can come have an adventure in being in caves that have had virtually no 
visitation of any kind.

Stan Allison's old job is being posted to the public to widen the search for 
the perfect person. He wants some one with survey/cartography skills, WNS 
knowledge, has inventory logging archival knowledge, can cave fast, works well 
with people and maybe even has SAR skill.
Its good to be back in the caves!
Karen

  From: Charles Loving via Texascavers 
 To: Cavers Texas  
 Sent: Friday, August 26, 2016 7:27 PM
 Subject: Re: [Texascavers] New Restoration projects at Carlsbad Caverns 
starting soon
   
Kren Perry
Worked with Ron Bridgeman on a project there a decade ago or more. Mapped lake 
of the clouds and Spider Cave and went to Lechguilla. It was a real blast and 
felt like we were accomplishing things worthwhile. Liked the folks and the 
cavers on those trips.
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 8:20 PM, Karen Perry via Texascavers 
 wrote:

You know that saying...'I'm baaack!' Well I am happy to report I am shouting it 
loud.After a long time away from anything caving or even related to caves, I 
have returned to the Cave Resource Department at Carlsbad Caverns and am 
planing several  projects that will start in September. If you would like to 
join in on the fun please email me for details.
The Mirror Lake Lady has returned.Karen Perry

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-- 
Charlie Loving
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Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal

2016-08-31 Thread Pete Lindsley via Texascavers 


On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:20 AM, Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología AC. via 
Texascavers wrote:

Do you have the dates of that accident?
do you know is someone write an article about it? could you please share with me

Mónica Ponce

2016-08-31 11:57 GMT-05:00 Charles Loving via Texascavers 
:
A couple of people, scouts I think, swam the wrong way in the syphon and 
drowned. It was back when I was caving a lot. Raines and I swam the syphon with 
a Rayovac flashlight and two canteen belts latched together. The flashlight 
lasted just long enough for us to get back out. Really dumb.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 8:53 PM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:
I have always wanted to see a map of the dived passages.

I have heard they are under water.


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-- 
Charlie Loving

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-- 
LCC. MÓNICA GRISSEL PONCE GONZÁLEZ
Coordinadora de la Comisión Internacional de Técnicas y Materiales de la UIS
Instructor Nacional Certificado de Espeleología por la FMAS
Directora de MP- Mex Caving
Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología, A.C. (Fundadora)
Asociación Italiana Geográfica La Venta (Socia)
Centro de Estudios Kársticos La Venta (Socia)
Grupo Espeleológico Vaxakmen, A.C. (Socia)
Grupo Espeleológico EspeleoZots en Chetumal (Asesora)
Grupo Pionero de Espeleología en Sonora  (Asesora)
Association for Mexican Cave Studies (Colaboradora)
Texas Speleological Association (Socia)
Unión Mexicana de Agrupaciones Espeleológicas (Socia)

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Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal

2016-08-31 Thread Karen Perry via Texascavers 
The entire incident is recorded in detailed time log, complete with newspaper 
articles in the November 1971 Texas Caver.The boys that drowned were Chris 
Cleveland 18, and Bruce Stone 17, both from Houston, Texas.
Yep, I still have some caving stuff like early Texas Cavers. By the way, does 
anyone have a copy of the Paleo inventory from Inner Space cavers pre 1974 that 
list the Homo Sapien tooth? By 1974 it hafd been removed due to religious 
outcry so to avoid controversy the owners/ board decided to simply remove the 
tooth from the inventory log.

Later,
Karen Perry


  From: Charles Loving via Texascavers 
 To: Cavers Texas  
 Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 10:57 AM
 Subject: Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal
   
A couple of people, scouts I think, swam the wrong way in the syphon and 
drowned. It was back when I was caving a lot. Raines and I swam the syphon with 
a Rayovac flashlight and two canteen belts latched together. The flashlight 
lasted just long enough for us to get back out. Really dumb.
On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 8:53 PM, David via Texascavers 
 wrote:

I have always wanted to see a map of the dived passages.I have heard they are 
under water.
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-- 
Charlie Loving
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Re: [Texascavers] White-Nose Syndrome in PNW scientific article

2016-08-31 Thread Geary Schindel via Texascavers 
Diana,

Very well said, I was thinking of replying also but you hit the nail on the 
head. Most research these days are a collaboration between many scientists and 
laboratories. I think the best example I've seen is some of the Super Collider 
work that might have 150 authors for a paper. 

Geary Schindel
gschin...@edwardsaquifer.org  

-Original Message-
From: Texascavers [mailto:texascavers-boun...@texascavers.com] On Behalf Of 
Diana Tomchick via Texascavers
Sent: Wednesday, August 31, 2016 12:16 PM
To: Cave Tex 
Subject: Re: [Texascavers] White-Nose Syndrome in PNW scientific article

Let me clarify what constitutes authorship on a scientific article.

It does not necessarily mean that a person wrote one of the paragraphs. In 
fact, in the future we may have artificial intelligence to thank for writing 
much of the routine text in our articles and technical manuals.

It DOES mean that an author is a person that is responsible for one or more of 
the following:

Coming up with the original idea (i.e., the hypothesis) for the experiment 
Collecting data Analyzing data Presenting data (in graphical, written or other 
forms such as videos, etc.) Supervising the people that collect, analyze and 
present the data Drawing important conclusions from the data and testing new 
hypotheses that result from this all-important step Writing the text of the 
final document

You want and NEED all of these people to be listed as authors—as they are the 
ones that are legitimately responsible for the final published work. If there 
are any questions about what is presented in the work, everyone knows who is 
responsible.

We call this transparency, which unfortunately is lacking in other important 
human endeavors.

Diana

**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry University of Texas Southwestern 
Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Cavers Texas  
> wrote:
>
> Wow! Fourteen alleged authors for an article with eight paragraphs. 
> How many of those people do you think were really authors, i.e., 
> writers? How many of them were just bottle washers? -- Mixon
> 
> Always forgive your enemies after they are hanged.
> 
> You may "reply" to the address this message (unless it's a TexasCavers 
> list post) came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org
>
> ___
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> http://www.mail-archive.com/texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers




UT Southwestern


Medical Center



The future of medicine, today.

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Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal

2016-08-31 Thread Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología AC . via Texascavers 
Do you have the dates of that accident?
do you know is someone write an article about it? could you please share
with me

Mónica Ponce

2016-08-31 11:57 GMT-05:00 Charles Loving via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com>:

> A couple of people, scouts I think, swam the wrong way in the syphon and
> drowned. It was back when I was caving a lot. Raines and I swam the syphon
> with a Rayovac flashlight and two canteen belts latched together. The
> flashlight lasted just long enough for us to get back out. Really dumb.
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 8:53 PM, David via Texascavers <
> texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:
>
>> I have always wanted to see a map of the dived passages.
>>
>> I have heard they are under water.
>>
>> ___
>> Texascavers mailing list | http://texascavers.com
>> Texascavers@texascavers.com | Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/te
>> xascav...@texascavers.com/
>> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Charlie Loving
>
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> texascavers@texascavers.com/
> http://lists.texascavers.com/listinfo/texascavers
>
>


-- 

LCC. MÓNICA GRISSEL PONCE GONZÁLEZ

Coordinadora de la Comisión Internacional de Técnicas y Materiales de la UIS

Instructor Nacional Certificado de Espeleología por la FMAS

Directora de MP- Mex Caving

Asociación Coahuilense de Espeleología, A.C. (Fundadora)

Asociación Italiana Geográfica La Venta (Socia)

Centro de Estudios Kársticos La Venta (Socia)

Grupo Espeleológico Vaxakmen, A.C. (Socia)

Grupo Espeleológico EspeleoZots en Chetumal (Asesora)

Grupo Pionero de Espeleología en Sonora  (Asesora)

Association for Mexican Cave Studies (Colaboradora)

Texas Speleological Association (Socia)

Unión Mexicana de Agrupaciones Espeleológicas (Socia)
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Re: [Texascavers] White-Nose Syndrome in PNW scientific article

2016-08-31 Thread Diana Tomchick via Texascavers 
Let me clarify what constitutes authorship on a scientific article.

It does not necessarily mean that a person wrote one of the paragraphs. In 
fact, in the future we may have artificial intelligence to thank for writing 
much of the routine text in our articles and technical manuals.

It DOES mean that an author is a person that is responsible for one or more of 
the following:

Coming up with the original idea (i.e., the hypothesis) for the experiment
Collecting data
Analyzing data
Presenting data (in graphical, written or other forms such as videos, etc.)
Supervising the people that collect, analyze and present the data
Drawing important conclusions from the data and testing new hypotheses that 
result from this all-important step
Writing the text of the final document

You want and NEED all of these people to be listed as authors—as they are the 
ones that are legitimately responsible for the final published work. If there 
are any questions about what is presented in the work, everyone knows who is 
responsible.

We call this transparency, which unfortunately is lacking in other important 
human endeavors.

Diana

**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)

> On Aug 31, 2016, at 11:59 AM, Cavers Texas  
> wrote:
>
> Wow! Fourteen alleged authors for an article with eight paragraphs. How many 
> of those people do you think were really authors, i.e., writers? How many of 
> them were just bottle washers? -- Mixon
> 
> Always forgive your enemies after they are hanged.
> 
> You may "reply" to the address this message
> (unless it's a TexasCavers list post)
> came from, but for long-term use, save:
> Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
> AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org
>
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UT Southwestern


Medical Center



The future of medicine, today.

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Re: [Texascavers] White-Nose Syndrome in PNW scientific article

2016-08-31 Thread Mixon Bill via Texascavers 
Wow! Fourteen alleged authors for an article with eight paragraphs. How many of 
those people do you think were really authors, i.e., writers? How many of them 
were just bottle washers? -- Mixon

Always forgive your enemies after they are hanged.

You may "reply" to the address this message
(unless it's a TexasCavers list post)
came from, but for long-term use, save:
Personal: bmi...@alumni.uchicago.edu
AMCS: a...@mexicancaves.org or sa...@mexicancaves.org

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Re: [Texascavers] Carrizal

2016-08-31 Thread Charles Loving via Texascavers 
A couple of people, scouts I think, swam the wrong way in the syphon and
drowned. It was back when I was caving a lot. Raines and I swam the syphon
with a Rayovac flashlight and two canteen belts latched together. The
flashlight lasted just long enough for us to get back out. Really dumb.

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 8:53 PM, David via Texascavers <
texascavers@texascavers.com> wrote:

> I have always wanted to see a map of the dived passages.
>
> I have heard they are under water.
>
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>
>


-- 
Charlie Loving
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[Texascavers] White-Nose Syndrome in PNW scientific article

2016-08-31 Thread Diana Tomchick via Texascavers 
In the latest issue of mSphere, the American Society for Microbiology open 
access journal.

Anyone should have the ability to access and download this article.


First Detection of Bat White-Nose Syndrome in Western North America
Jeffrey M. Lorch, Jonathan M. Palmer, Daniel L. Lindner, Anne E.
Ballmann, Kyle G. George, Kathryn Griffin, Susan Knowles, John R.
Huckabee, Katherine H. Haman, Christopher D. Anderson, Penny A. Becker,
Joseph B. Buchanan, Jeffrey T. Foster, and David S. Blehert
mSphere July/August 2016 1:e00148-16; doi:10.1128/mSphere.00148-16

White-nose syndrome (WNS) represents one of the most consequential wildlife
diseases of modern times. Since it was first documented in New York in
2006, the disease has killed millions of bats and threatens several
formerly abundant species with extirpation or extinction. The spread of WNS
in eastern North America has been relatively gradual, inducing optimism
that disease mitigation strategies could be established in time to conserve
bats susceptible to WNS in western North America. The recent detection of
the fungus that causes WNS in the Pacific Northwest, far from its previous
known distribution, increases the urgency for understanding the long-term
impacts of this disease and for developing strategies to conserve imperiled
bat species.

http://msphere.asm.org/content/1/4/e00148-16.abstract?etoc

**
Diana R. Tomchick
Professor
Departments of Biophysics and Biochemistry
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center
5323 Harry Hines Blvd.
Rm. ND10.214A
Dallas, TX 75390-8816
diana.tomch...@utsouthwestern.edu
(214) 645-6383 (phone)
(214) 645-6353 (fax)




UT Southwestern


Medical Center



The future of medicine, today.


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