Re: [Therion] Joining surveys at a curved/sloping pitch

[Bruce Mutton]

> If the two scraps are in the same map layer (i.e. not separated by a break 
> line in the map definition) then the upper scrap will completely hide any 
> part of the lower scrap which passes under it. 

> So the lower scrap curved outline of the pit bottom can be quickly drawn a 
> bit larger than the curved line of the pit in the upper scrap, as any overlap 
> will be hidden.

 

Not sure I've experienced that behaviour, but then I always have - transparency 
on with a midrange opacity set.  Scraps on the same layer that overlap tend to 
render poorly with those settings.

 

>> Perhaps a way forward would be a feature whereby a passage fill area

>> be defined that is completely transparent to show any scraps that

>> happen to pass below it.

 

I imagine that at the time a scrap is rendered, the code  cannot know whether 
there will be a scrap below/behind.   But I don't know.

But still, maybe...

 

area open(ing) 

-place bottom #always

-clip on #always

-visibility [on|off] #off effectively disables the 'opening' 
effect, as though the area was not specified at all

-fill-* # background colour in the ‘opening’ as below

   ... border line references ...

endarea

 

I imagine the opacity of the 'area open' could be set to some fraction of the 
opacity set for the current layout.  That would give the relative impression of 
transparency, and would let the colour of the passage below bleed through.  It 
could be a default setting, or user definable.

To account for scenarios where there is no passage surveyed or drawing 
immediately below, or if Therion indeed cannot know whether there will be a 
scrap rendered below the current scrap, there could be -fill-* options to set 
the underlying colour.  

It would need to accommodate the -lookup -map-fg options 
<https://therion.speleo.sk/wiki/examples?s%5b%5d=lookup#colour_scales_-_lookups>
  that apply to the layout, and respond appropriately to a user input.

ie

colour map-fg altitude would need area open to accept say -fill-station 
23@survey02, or


-fill-altitude 850 m, or


-fill-colour [r g b]

colour map-fg explo-date or topo-date would need area open to accept say 
-fill-survey survey02 *, or


-fill-date 
, or


-fill-colour [r 
g b]

* each centreline or subsurvey could have a different date, so I guess it would 
just average the date of all centrelines in the survey.

colour map-fg map or scrap would need area open to accept say -fill-map or 
fill-scrap , or


-fill-colour [r 
g b]

I guess multiple fill colour options could be set in any one area, and options 
inappropriate to the current lookup would be silently ignored, and the last 
valid fill-option defined would be the one implemented for a particular area at 
compile time.

 

This arrangement would allow the user to easily specify outputs that would be 
consistent across a number of different selection, map, lookup and export 
scenarios.

 

Its getting complicated now.  Sorry coders…

Bruce

 

-Original Message-

From: Therion  On Behalf Of Tarquin Wilton-Jones via 
Therion

Sent: Saturday, 11 May 2019 09:33

To: therion@speleo.sk

Cc: Tarquin Wilton-Jones 

Subject: Re: [Therion] Joining surveys at a curved/sloping pitch

 

>> Perhaps a way forward would be a feature whereby a passage fill area

>> be defined that is completely transparent to show any scraps that

>> happen to pass below it.

> 

> 

> Genius! I really want this feature. Don't know if it is possible, but 

> I want it anyway.

 

 

-outline hollow -fillstation 23

 

meaning that wherever there is nothing behind it, it should take its colour 
from station 23. but that would mean it is impossible to colour unless there is 
a relevant station in the same survey (no idea of how to mix stations). And if 
there are three passages stacked under each other at the pitch (which is the 
case for one of mine), then it might think it doesn't need to render the fill 
colour because there is a passage there, even though the pitch doesn't actually 
connect to that passage. So there would be some kinks to work out.

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Re: [Therion] Joining surveys at a curved/sloping pitch

[Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion]

>> Perhaps a way forward would be a feature whereby a passage fill area
>> be defined that is completely transparent to show any scraps that
>> happen to pass below it.
> 
> 
> Genius! I really want this feature. Don't know if it is possible, but I
> want it anyway.


-outline hollow -fillstation 23

meaning that wherever there is nothing behind it, it should take its
colour from station 23. but that would mean it is impossible to colour
unless there is a relevant station in the same survey (no idea of how to
mix stations). And if there are three passages stacked under each other
at the pitch (which is the case for one of mine), then it might think it
doesn't need to render the fill colour because there is a passage there,
even though the pitch doesn't actually connect to that passage. So there
would be some kinks to work out.
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Re: [Therion] Joining surveys at a curved/sloping pitch

[Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion]

> if they are later (or simultaneously) used in maps
> that do not have the lower level passage displayed, they end up with
> an inappropriate white (non-passage) space in a location where there
> clearly should be passage (ie the pit).


Indeed, though I did come up with a solution for that, in the form of a
filler scrap at that location which is used when offsetting maps. It's a
messy solution though, and it would be better not to need it.

> Similarly, scraps with holes cut-out wreak havoc with the loch models.


Interesting! Thanks for sharing that one, I hadn't noticed until you said.

> Perhaps a way forward would be a feature whereby a passage fill area
> be defined that is completely transparent to show any scraps that
> happen to pass below it.


Genius! I really want this feature. Don't know if it is possible, but I
want it anyway.
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Re: [Therion] Joining surveys at a curved/sloping pitch

[Bruce Mutton]

Solutions of the type proposed (holes in upper scraps so that scrap below is 
visible) have their place, and I have done similar myself, using the sorts 
strategies discussed.

Nowadays I am reluctant to do such things, as I place a high value on scraps 
that are as versatile as possible.  The danger of ‘holey’ scraps is that if 
they are later (or simultaneously) used in maps that do not have the lower 
level passage displayed, they end up with an inappropriate white (non-passage) 
space in a location where there clearly should be passage (ie the pit).

Similarly, scraps with holes cut-out wreak havoc with the loch models. 

 

So you can apply trickery to achieve a perfect particular output, often to the 
significant detriment to other outputs.

 

Perhaps a way forward would be a feature whereby a passage fill area be defined 
that is completely transparent to show any scraps that happen to pass below it. 
 And if it is presented in an output that has no scrap shown below it, it takes 
on the specified map-fg colour that otherwise applies.  This kind of a passage 
fill would avoid the workarounds discussed upsetting model outputs, and avoid 
the need for complicated workarounds.

So, is an ‘area open’, referring to a ‘window’ in a scrap through which a scrap 
behind or below is visible unobstructed, desirable?

Is it possible? 

 

Bruce

 

 

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Re: [Therion] Joining surveys at a curved/sloping pitch

[Footleg]

Nice. I had not thought to join all the line points like that. I'll bear
that in mind next time I have a particularly tricky join.

Footleg

On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 14:39, Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion <
therion@speleo.sk> wrote:

> On 10/05/2019 14:28, Footleg wrote:
> > If the two scraps are in the same map layer (i.e. not separated by a
> > break line in the map definition) then the upper scrap will completely
> > hide any part of the lower scrap which passes under it. So the lower
> > scrap curved outline of the pit bottom can be quickly drawn a bit larger
> > than the curved line of the pit in the upper scrap, as any overlap will
> > be hidden.
>
>
>
> Sounds convenient, but sadly not possible in my case, as there is a
> break. But my manual process does work. Tested it out. Wish it were more
> convenient, but it works.
>
> 1. text editor, copy pit line from upper scrap in upper survey
> 2. text editor, paste pit line into lower scrap in lower survey
> 3. set -outline out, -visibility off
> 4. in XTherion, open lower survey
> 5. select first line point on the new line (it will be positioned
> somewhere weird), press "shift from"
> 6. select the line point on the wall line where it needs to end up,
> press "shift to"
> 7. select the new line, press "shift object"
> 8. connect walls to it as needed
> 9. in overall .th file, add joins for each line point, and the scrap as
> needed:
>
>   join pitchbottomSP@topsurvey pitchtopSP@bottomsurvey -smooth on
>   join pitchedge@topsurvey:0 pitchlip@bottomsurvey:0
>   join pitchedge@topsurvey:1 pitchlip@bottomsurvey:1
>   join pitchedge@topsurvey:2 pitchlip@bottomsurvey:2
>   join pitchedge@topsurvey:3 pitchlip@bottomsurvey:3
>   join pitchedge@topsurvey:4 pitchlip@bottomsurvey:4
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Re: [Therion] Joining surveys at a curved/sloping pitch

[Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion]

On 10/05/2019 14:28, Footleg wrote:
> If the two scraps are in the same map layer (i.e. not separated by a
> break line in the map definition) then the upper scrap will completely
> hide any part of the lower scrap which passes under it. So the lower
> scrap curved outline of the pit bottom can be quickly drawn a bit larger
> than the curved line of the pit in the upper scrap, as any overlap will
> be hidden.



Sounds convenient, but sadly not possible in my case, as there is a
break. But my manual process does work. Tested it out. Wish it were more
convenient, but it works.

1. text editor, copy pit line from upper scrap in upper survey
2. text editor, paste pit line into lower scrap in lower survey
3. set -outline out, -visibility off
4. in XTherion, open lower survey
5. select first line point on the new line (it will be positioned
somewhere weird), press "shift from"
6. select the line point on the wall line where it needs to end up,
press "shift to"
7. select the new line, press "shift object"
8. connect walls to it as needed
9. in overall .th file, add joins for each line point, and the scrap as
needed:

  join pitchbottomSP@topsurvey pitchtopSP@bottomsurvey -smooth on
  join pitchedge@topsurvey:0 pitchlip@bottomsurvey:0
  join pitchedge@topsurvey:1 pitchlip@bottomsurvey:1
  join pitchedge@topsurvey:2 pitchlip@bottomsurvey:2
  join pitchedge@topsurvey:3 pitchlip@bottomsurvey:3
  join pitchedge@topsurvey:4 pitchlip@bottomsurvey:4
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Re: [Therion] Joining surveys at a curved/sloping pitch

[Footleg]

If the two scraps are in the same map layer (i.e. not separated by a break
line in the map definition) then the upper scrap will completely hide any
part of the lower scrap which passes under it. So the lower scrap curved
outline of the pit bottom can be quickly drawn a bit larger than the curved
line of the pit in the upper scrap, as any overlap will be hidden.

Footleg

On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 13:51, Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion <
therion@speleo.sk> wrote:

> > So if you
> > need to join them to keep them aligned you have to specify the exact
> > line points to join to pin the points at either end of the curved lines
> > to each other in the pair of scraps.
>
>
> Many thanks for that.
>
> I was afraid you would answer something like that though. Laborious
> manual editing it is.
>
> I was wondering if maybe I could manually add the pit line into the
> lower scrap's .th2 file using a text editor. Make it invisible, outline
> out, then use XTherion to move it into position so that it touches the
> lower scrap properly, and then manually join all the linepoints in the
> .th file. That way, the shape of the curve should be perfect, with
> minimal distortion, and not relying on line thickness to hide the
> approximations.
>
> It's a real shame to have to do it like that though. Imagine instead
> that I could create a scrap filling only the gap, in the *upper*
> survey's .th2 file (fairly easy to do). Then imagine I could say:
> fillerscrap@uppersurvey -color lowerscrap@lowersurvey.
>
> (Whether this is done as a lookup, or as a direct command or property
> doesn't really matter, just as long as it is possible.)
>
> This would solve the problem without needing all the manual
> approximations and attempting to copy vectors between surveys.
>
> Feature request?
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Re: [Therion] Joining surveys at a curved/sloping pitch

[Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion]

> So if you
> need to join them to keep them aligned you have to specify the exact
> line points to join to pin the points at either end of the curved lines
> to each other in the pair of scraps.


Many thanks for that.

I was afraid you would answer something like that though. Laborious
manual editing it is.

I was wondering if maybe I could manually add the pit line into the
lower scrap's .th2 file using a text editor. Make it invisible, outline
out, then use XTherion to move it into position so that it touches the
lower scrap properly, and then manually join all the linepoints in the
.th file. That way, the shape of the curve should be perfect, with
minimal distortion, and not relying on line thickness to hide the
approximations.

It's a real shame to have to do it like that though. Imagine instead
that I could create a scrap filling only the gap, in the *upper*
survey's .th2 file (fairly easy to do). Then imagine I could say:
fillerscrap@uppersurvey -color lowerscrap@lowersurvey.

(Whether this is done as a lookup, or as a direct command or property
doesn't really matter, just as long as it is possible.)

This would solve the problem without needing all the manual
approximations and attempting to copy vectors between surveys.

Feature request?
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Re: [Therion] Joining surveys at a curved/sloping pitch

[Xavier Pennec]

Indeed, if the two scraps are joined, then using -outline out creates  a 
hole which is not colored.


The main problem in this configuration is that the bottom scrap should 
close its outline contour using the pit line rather than using an 
implicit line connecting the two shortest points where the contour is 
open. However, connecting the wall of the bottom scrap to the pit line 
does not solve the problem since the pit line should have outline out on 
the top scrap and outline in on the bottom scrap. The solution I used to 
patch that was to duplicate the geometry of the pit line of the top 
scrap into a "wall:invisible" line (inversely oriented to have the 
correct orientation) on the bottom scrap. When the two scarps are not 
deformed too differently, this works. But if the scraps are deformed 
differently, then the top and bottom lines are deformed independently 
and differently and this can create a small hole.


This is basically the same solution as the one Footleg just proposed. I 
wish there would be a more principled way of joining two scraps along a 
shared line.


Xavier


Le 10-May-19 à 14:31, Footleg a écrit :
I do this sort of thing a lot. You just need an equivalent line in the 
lower (blue) survey with -outline out to extend the blue scrap border 
to cover the white hole in your plan. I generally use an invisible 
wall line (so does not need '-outline out' option specifying) and make 
it slightly larger than the curved pit line so the overlap of the 
scraps is maintained even if a bit of distortion is applied due to 
loop closure corrections. As long as the scraps are in the same map 
level (i.e. not separated by a break) then the upper scrap will hide 
the overlapping area of the lower one. You cannot 'join' the scraps 
automatically now as neither will have an opening in the outline at 
the pit now. So if you need to join them to keep them aligned you have 
to specify the exact line points to join to pin the points at either 
end of the curved lines to each other in the pair of scraps.


Footleg

On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 12:42, Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion 
mailto:therion@speleo.sk>> wrote:


Thanks for the reply.

> Adding the option -outline out to the (closed) line of your pit
on the
> top scrap should create the whole that you want in the blue color so
> that you will see the green color of the bottom scrap.

See attached for what happens when you do that. I need the blue to
fill
the blank area. Blue and green belong to different surveys, so getting
them to perfectly match the curve of each other manually is ... hard.

Is there a way to create a scrap within the green survey (where it is
easy to perfectly follow the same line), but tell it to take it's
altitude colour from the blue scrap instead?
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Xavier Pennec
Senior Research Scientist / Directeur de recherche
Asclepios project-team, INRIA Sophia-Antipolis
2004 Route des Lucioles, BP93
F-06902 Sophia-Antipolis Cedex, France
+33 4 92 38 76 64
+33 6 78 35 16 90
http://www-sop.inria.fr/asclepios/
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Re: [Therion] Joining surveys at a curved/sloping pitch

[Footleg]

I do this sort of thing a lot. You just need an equivalent line in the
lower (blue) survey with -outline out to extend the blue scrap border to
cover the white hole in your plan. I generally use an invisible wall line
(so does not need '-outline out' option specifying) and make it slightly
larger than the curved pit line so the overlap of the scraps is maintained
even if a bit of distortion is applied due to loop closure corrections. As
long as the scraps are in the same map level (i.e. not separated by a
break) then the upper scrap will hide the overlapping area of the lower
one. You cannot 'join' the scraps automatically now as neither will have an
opening in the outline at the pit now. So if you need to join them to keep
them aligned you have to specify the exact line points to join to pin the
points at either end of the curved lines to each other in the pair of
scraps.

Footleg

On Fri, 10 May 2019 at 12:42, Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion <
therion@speleo.sk> wrote:

> Thanks for the reply.
>
> > Adding the option -outline out to the (closed) line of  your pit on the
> > top scrap should create the whole that you want in the blue color so
> > that you will see the green color of the bottom scrap.
>
> See attached for what happens when you do that. I need the blue to fill
> the blank area. Blue and green belong to different surveys, so getting
> them to perfectly match the curve of each other manually is ... hard.
>
> Is there a way to create a scrap within the green survey (where it is
> easy to perfectly follow the same line), but tell it to take it's
> altitude colour from the blue scrap instead?
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Re: [Therion] Joining surveys at a curved/sloping pitch

[Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion]

Thanks for the reply.

> Adding the option -outline out to the (closed) line of  your pit on the
> top scrap should create the whole that you want in the blue color so
> that you will see the green color of the bottom scrap.

See attached for what happens when you do that. I need the blue to fill
the blank area. Blue and green belong to different surveys, so getting
them to perfectly match the curve of each other manually is ... hard.

Is there a way to create a scrap within the green survey (where it is
easy to perfectly follow the same line), but tell it to take it's
altitude colour from the blue scrap instead?
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Re: [Therion] Joining surveys at a curved/sloping pitch

[Xavier Pennec]

Hi Tarquin,

Adding the option -outline out to the (closed) line of  your pit on the 
top scrap should create the whole that you want in the blue color so 
that you will see the green color of the bottom scrap. Personally, I 
would not use a line pit in the bottom scrap (this is not a pit on the 
floor of that level) but rather a line of type ceiling-step  to indicate 
the arrival of the top pit on the ceiling.


Hope this helps

Xavier

Le 10-May-19 à 13:08, Tarquin Wilton-Jones via Therion a écrit :

Hi all,

I have an awkward situation in my survey. One of our caves was surveyed
in 2 surveys. The 2 surveys join at a sloping pitch with a secondary
hole dropping into it.

I have managed to draw it all in a way that makes logical sense, but I
can't work out how to join the two surveys in the right manner. See
attached. Green = upper passage survey. Blue & purple = lower passage
and pitch survey. The part I want to fix is the green-blue boundary,
where the blue should ideally follow the "pit" lines

Ideally, pitches/pits should have their lower colour taken from the
lower passage, and their upper colour taken from the upper passage. This
is easy when they are in the same survey; you just draw your "pit" line
in the upper scrap, and then follow that exact same line with a
"-visibility off" wall in the lower scrap.

When joining surveys, they are joined in a straight line at the scrap
boundaries. This makes it very hard to draw the curved pitch heads,
since curves are not straight lines, and you cannot follow the exact
same line as the other scrap, because the other scrap sits in another
survey, in another .th2 file.

I can make additional "lower" scraps in the "upper survey" to follow the
pit outlines, but how can I make those scraps take on the colour of a
scrap using survey stations in another survey file?

Does anyone have any methods to work with this situation? (Preferably
not something that becomes just a bunch of trial and error, and then
joining every single curve point in the two surveys. I could do that,
but it is really painful.)

Thanks for any advice,

Tarquin

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Senior Research Scientist / Directeur de recherche
Asclepios project-team, INRIA Sophia-Antipolis
2004 Route des Lucioles, BP93
F-06902 Sophia-Antipolis Cedex, France
+33 4 92 38 76 64
+33 6 78 35 16 90
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