Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[Flibbles]

Thank you. I am much relieved. I would not have looked forward to having 
every file in my git repository touched, and to have all of the tiddlers' 
text bodies crammed into one line.

On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 4:36:50 PM UTC-4 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi Flibbles,
>
> No significant changes to saving no node.js. Currently tiddlers of type 
> text/vnd.tiddlywiki are saved as .tid, files unless they have mutliline 
> fields in which case those tiddlers are saved as .json files. This will 
> remain the same with the addendum that a tiddler with field names with a 
> colon in them will also be saved as a .json file. 
>
> Saq
>
> On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 9:21:17 PM UTC+2 Flibbles wrote:
>
>> Hey all,
>>
>> Question: Is this going to impact the way NodeJS servers saves tiddlers 
>> to file? Will they no longer be .tid files, and maybe be .json files 
>> instead?
>>
>> -Flibbles
>>
>> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 9:53:46 PM UTC-4 TW Tones wrote:
>>
>>> Springer,
>>>
>>> From a design perspective for column headings I would stick to a 
>>> standard fields such as column-heading with the value"🎾" on a tiddler 
>>> called "tennis", or as the case may be a sport tiddler.
>>>
>>> Already dynamic tables support alternate column names in a standard 
>>> field/value and there is not reason in my view to tamper with fieldnames.
>>>
>>> I am sure there are reasons, but your suggestion to me, is like I posted 
>>> previously, you may be about to hang yourself with the extra rope you have 
>>> being given for field names. I would avoid this excursion unless you can 
>>> establish a good reason otherwise you are possibly forgoing the ability to 
>>> use your tiddlers, with the large library of plugins and macros that have 
>>> gone before.
>>>
>>> Just my viewpoint
>>> Tones
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, 23 July 2021 at 23:58:23 UTC+10 springer wrote:
>>>
 Mario,

 Thanks for the bracket fix! (I should have caught that, but was getting 
 bleary-eyed.)

 When you say, "you mainly test with tiddler titles, and not fields. 
 Even if you have strange field names...," I'm not sure what you mean. I 
 have focused mostly on having strange field names that correspond to 
 strange tiddler titles, partly because I anticipate that the newly open 
 field-name space will get half its value from letting field names 
 correspond to tiddler titles. And because of the centrality of Shiraz to 
 my 
 own workflow, I have been testing how Shiraz (especially dynamic tables) 
 behaves with the new field name possibilities.

 My other anticipated use for strange field names is to serve as compact 
 headings in dynamic tables, where the difference between "tennis" and 🎾 or 
 "recyclable" and ♻︎ (in a field with √ or X values) is conservation of 
 horizontal table space.

 So: What other kinds of tests do you (and others) see as important? 
 Though my coding skills are minimal, the challenge to test the limits of a 
 new feature is one area where I enjoy chipping in as best I can.

 -Springer

 On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:37:23 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:

> Hi,
> Nice tests, but you mainly test with tiddler titles, and not fields. 
> Even if you have strange field names in your tiddlers. 
>
>
> https://springerspandrel.github.io/tw/new-json-tw-experiment.html#Show%20related%20field-table%20(ViewTemplate)
>  
> .. The filter is probably broken, because the number of opne/close braces 
> are wrong. The last closing brace is missing ...first[]]
>
> BUT I didn't test the code. 
>
> -mario
>
>

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[Saq Imtiaz]

Hi Flibbles,

No significant changes to saving no node.js. Currently tiddlers of type 
text/vnd.tiddlywiki are saved as .tid, files unless they have mutliline 
fields in which case those tiddlers are saved as .json files. This will 
remain the same with the addendum that a tiddler with field names with a 
colon in them will also be saved as a .json file. 

Saq

On Saturday, July 24, 2021 at 9:21:17 PM UTC+2 Flibbles wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> Question: Is this going to impact the way NodeJS servers saves tiddlers to 
> file? Will they no longer be .tid files, and maybe be .json files instead?
>
> -Flibbles
>
> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 9:53:46 PM UTC-4 TW Tones wrote:
>
>> Springer,
>>
>> From a design perspective for column headings I would stick to a standard 
>> fields such as column-heading with the value"🎾" on a tiddler called 
>> "tennis", or as the case may be a sport tiddler.
>>
>> Already dynamic tables support alternate column names in a standard 
>> field/value and there is not reason in my view to tamper with fieldnames.
>>
>> I am sure there are reasons, but your suggestion to me, is like I posted 
>> previously, you may be about to hang yourself with the extra rope you have 
>> being given for field names. I would avoid this excursion unless you can 
>> establish a good reason otherwise you are possibly forgoing the ability to 
>> use your tiddlers, with the large library of plugins and macros that have 
>> gone before.
>>
>> Just my viewpoint
>> Tones
>>
>>
>> On Friday, 23 July 2021 at 23:58:23 UTC+10 springer wrote:
>>
>>> Mario,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the bracket fix! (I should have caught that, but was getting 
>>> bleary-eyed.)
>>>
>>> When you say, "you mainly test with tiddler titles, and not fields. Even 
>>> if you have strange field names...," I'm not sure what you mean. I have 
>>> focused mostly on having strange field names that correspond to strange 
>>> tiddler titles, partly because I anticipate that the newly open field-name 
>>> space will get half its value from letting field names correspond to 
>>> tiddler titles. And because of the centrality of Shiraz to my own workflow, 
>>> I have been testing how Shiraz (especially dynamic tables) behaves with the 
>>> new field name possibilities.
>>>
>>> My other anticipated use for strange field names is to serve as compact 
>>> headings in dynamic tables, where the difference between "tennis" and 🎾 or 
>>> "recyclable" and ♻︎ (in a field with √ or X values) is conservation of 
>>> horizontal table space.
>>>
>>> So: What other kinds of tests do you (and others) see as important? 
>>> Though my coding skills are minimal, the challenge to test the limits of a 
>>> new feature is one area where I enjoy chipping in as best I can.
>>>
>>> -Springer
>>>
>>> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:37:23 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:
>>>
 Hi,
 Nice tests, but you mainly test with tiddler titles, and not fields. 
 Even if you have strange field names in your tiddlers. 


 https://springerspandrel.github.io/tw/new-json-tw-experiment.html#Show%20related%20field-table%20(ViewTemplate)
  
 .. The filter is probably broken, because the number of opne/close braces 
 are wrong. The last closing brace is missing ...first[]]

 BUT I didn't test the code. 

 -mario



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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[Flibbles]

Hey all,

Question: Is this going to impact the way NodeJS servers saves tiddlers to 
file? Will they no longer be .tid files, and maybe be .json files instead?

-Flibbles

On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 9:53:46 PM UTC-4 TW Tones wrote:

> Springer,
>
> From a design perspective for column headings I would stick to a standard 
> fields such as column-heading with the value"🎾" on a tiddler called 
> "tennis", or as the case may be a sport tiddler.
>
> Already dynamic tables support alternate column names in a standard 
> field/value and there is not reason in my view to tamper with fieldnames.
>
> I am sure there are reasons, but your suggestion to me, is like I posted 
> previously, you may be about to hang yourself with the extra rope you have 
> being given for field names. I would avoid this excursion unless you can 
> establish a good reason otherwise you are possibly forgoing the ability to 
> use your tiddlers, with the large library of plugins and macros that have 
> gone before.
>
> Just my viewpoint
> Tones
>
>
> On Friday, 23 July 2021 at 23:58:23 UTC+10 springer wrote:
>
>> Mario,
>>
>> Thanks for the bracket fix! (I should have caught that, but was getting 
>> bleary-eyed.)
>>
>> When you say, "you mainly test with tiddler titles, and not fields. Even 
>> if you have strange field names...," I'm not sure what you mean. I have 
>> focused mostly on having strange field names that correspond to strange 
>> tiddler titles, partly because I anticipate that the newly open field-name 
>> space will get half its value from letting field names correspond to 
>> tiddler titles. And because of the centrality of Shiraz to my own workflow, 
>> I have been testing how Shiraz (especially dynamic tables) behaves with the 
>> new field name possibilities.
>>
>> My other anticipated use for strange field names is to serve as compact 
>> headings in dynamic tables, where the difference between "tennis" and 🎾 or 
>> "recyclable" and ♻︎ (in a field with √ or X values) is conservation of 
>> horizontal table space.
>>
>> So: What other kinds of tests do you (and others) see as important? 
>> Though my coding skills are minimal, the challenge to test the limits of a 
>> new feature is one area where I enjoy chipping in as best I can.
>>
>> -Springer
>>
>> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:37:23 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> Nice tests, but you mainly test with tiddler titles, and not fields. 
>>> Even if you have strange field names in your tiddlers. 
>>>
>>>
>>> https://springerspandrel.github.io/tw/new-json-tw-experiment.html#Show%20related%20field-table%20(ViewTemplate)
>>>  
>>> .. The filter is probably broken, because the number of opne/close braces 
>>> are wrong. The last closing brace is missing ...first[]]
>>>
>>> BUT I didn't test the code. 
>>>
>>> -mario
>>>
>>>

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[TW Tones]

Springer,

>From a design perspective for column headings I would stick to a standard 
fields such as column-heading with the value"🎾" on a tiddler called 
"tennis", or as the case may be a sport tiddler.

Already dynamic tables support alternate column names in a standard 
field/value and there is not reason in my view to tamper with fieldnames.

I am sure there are reasons, but your suggestion to me, is like I posted 
previously, you may be about to hang yourself with the extra rope you have 
being given for field names. I would avoid this excursion unless you can 
establish a good reason otherwise you are possibly forgoing the ability to 
use your tiddlers, with the large library of plugins and macros that have 
gone before.

Just my viewpoint
Tones


On Friday, 23 July 2021 at 23:58:23 UTC+10 springer wrote:

> Mario,
>
> Thanks for the bracket fix! (I should have caught that, but was getting 
> bleary-eyed.)
>
> When you say, "you mainly test with tiddler titles, and not fields. Even 
> if you have strange field names...," I'm not sure what you mean. I have 
> focused mostly on having strange field names that correspond to strange 
> tiddler titles, partly because I anticipate that the newly open field-name 
> space will get half its value from letting field names correspond to 
> tiddler titles. And because of the centrality of Shiraz to my own workflow, 
> I have been testing how Shiraz (especially dynamic tables) behaves with the 
> new field name possibilities.
>
> My other anticipated use for strange field names is to serve as compact 
> headings in dynamic tables, where the difference between "tennis" and 🎾 or 
> "recyclable" and ♻︎ (in a field with √ or X values) is conservation of 
> horizontal table space.
>
> So: What other kinds of tests do you (and others) see as important? Though 
> my coding skills are minimal, the challenge to test the limits of a new 
> feature is one area where I enjoy chipping in as best I can.
>
> -Springer
>
> On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:37:23 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> Nice tests, but you mainly test with tiddler titles, and not fields. Even 
>> if you have strange field names in your tiddlers. 
>>
>>
>> https://springerspandrel.github.io/tw/new-json-tw-experiment.html#Show%20related%20field-table%20(ViewTemplate)
>>  
>> .. The filter is probably broken, because the number of opne/close braces 
>> are wrong. The last closing brace is missing ...first[]]
>>
>> BUT I didn't test the code. 
>>
>> -mario
>>
>>

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[PMario]

Hi,
There was no offence intended in my last post. Your tests are good and you 
already discovered a problem, that would have caused a severe problem in 
production, if you hadn't found it. ... So -- well done!

What I wanted to say is that we need to test all kind of filter operators, 
that can deal with fields. We need to test them with "strange" field names 
eg: {{xx}} [[xx]] {x} [x] <>  and so on. .. 

I'm pretty sure some of them will cause problems. Either filter expressions 
can't be created or they cause parser problems. 

For some solutions we will need the help of variables similar to some 
regexp expressions with tiddler titles. See the last example at 
https://tiddlywiki.com/#regexp%20Operator%20(Examples) 

and so on. I think, the range of problems that will come up are very 
similar to those we had or have with "strange tiddler titles". ... We'll 
see.

-mario

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[springer]

Mario,

Thanks for the bracket fix! (I should have caught that, but was getting 
bleary-eyed.)

When you say, "you mainly test with tiddler titles, and not fields. Even if 
you have strange field names...," I'm not sure what you mean. I have 
focused mostly on having strange field names that correspond to strange 
tiddler titles, partly because I anticipate that the newly open field-name 
space will get half its value from letting field names correspond to 
tiddler titles. And because of the centrality of Shiraz to my own workflow, 
I have been testing how Shiraz (especially dynamic tables) behaves with the 
new field name possibilities.

My other anticipated use for strange field names is to serve as compact 
headings in dynamic tables, where the difference between "tennis" and 🎾 or 
"recyclable" and ♻︎ (in a field with √ or X values) is conservation of 
horizontal table space.

So: What other kinds of tests do you (and others) see as important? Though 
my coding skills are minimal, the challenge to test the limits of a new 
feature is one area where I enjoy chipping in as best I can.

-Springer

On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 8:37:23 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:

> Hi,
> Nice tests, but you mainly test with tiddler titles, and not fields. Even 
> if you have strange field names in your tiddlers. 
>
>
> https://springerspandrel.github.io/tw/new-json-tw-experiment.html#Show%20related%20field-table%20(ViewTemplate)
>  
> .. The filter is probably broken, because the number of opne/close braces 
> are wrong. The last closing brace is missing ...first[]]
>
> BUT I didn't test the code. 
>
> -mario
>
>

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[PMario]

Hi,
Nice tests, but you mainly test with tiddler titles, and not fields. Even 
if you have strange field names in your tiddlers. 

https://springerspandrel.github.io/tw/new-json-tw-experiment.html#Show%20related%20field-table%20(ViewTemplate)
 
.. The filter is probably broken, because the number of opne/close braces 
are wrong. The last closing brace is missing ...first[]]

BUT I didn't test the code. 

-mario

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[TW Tones]

Springer,

I totally agree, we need to prepare for any ungainly titles and fieldnames. 
I suppose my point is to not to abuse this and restate the value of keeping 
a limited set of naming rules when developing macros and plugins. Basically 
proposing the use of Okams razor. The rules are meant to be broken but 
giving one self some naming standards will always help. If I write a plugin 
or macro I would not make unnecessary use of the freedom, but I certainly 
will where it is of benefit. Of course for some with different languages 
they have good reason to make use of the new possibilities.

I suppose for me the hard part is sharing this knowledge and experience to 
advise people they may have being given sufficient rope to kill there wiki, 
and to remain circumspect.

Regards
Tones
On Friday, 23 July 2021 at 00:50:25 UTC+10 springer wrote:

> Tones and Mario,
>
> For public-facing projects, being able to name tiddlers with natural 
> language expressions (including spaces) has been essential, and it seems 
> much of the expanded power of fields in 5.2.0 will come from scanning for 
> matches between field names and tiddler titles. 
>
> (Emojis and such may seem trivial, but certain specialized unicode 
> characters like Σ, plus expressions in two-byte languages like 字, are 
> surely going to be leveraged by a significant user base as well.)
>
> So, as much as it may seem logical to stick to CamelCase titles and 
> a-z_special.string fieldnames for certain users, it seems the 
> flexible-field-names horse is going to be galloping out of the barn as soon 
> as the new version is available.
>
> Might we figure out some way to test the compatibility of existing plugins 
> (such as Shiraz) more systematically than by trial and error?
>
> -Springer
>
> On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 12:24:46 AM UTC-4 TW Tones wrote:
>
>> Mario,
>>
>> I am glad someone concurs. For me with my de facto standards and the new 
>> freedom, if a field name looks like a tiddler title it possibly is.
>>
>> Do you think many ancient and / or unsupported plugins will break?,. if 
>> they use fields even extensively the issue will only be if they are used 
>> against new fieldname standards. And until now at least we tended to honour 
>> any values if not fieldnames.
>>
>> I will be honest though few if any system tiddlers I create have spaces 
>> or quotes of any kind. even tags are usually single text strings, and I do 
>> think I will stick to this, as it simplifies code. but yes, use it when the 
>> exception makes sense.
>>
>> I have not yet considered what we may achieve by having field names that 
>> can be wikified into something else, but again I personally intend to 
>> proceed with caution. Perhaps the documentation can give some advice to 
>> this effect, for example currently the fieldname restrictions help us when 
>> generating csv files and if field names (and values) contain spaces, or 
>> commas and quotes this may no longer be true. The documentation should 
>> continue to list the previous limited naming standards as well. 
>>
>> I must say I also have de facto naming standards for titles even although 
>> they are quite flexible, in fact most that I code follow a simple and 
>> limited range. I like to leave the flexibility for when its needed. The one 
>> exception is when a title is also textual content like a sentence or 
>> paragraph.
>>
>> Regards
>> Tones
>> On Thursday, 22 July 2021 at 13:56:18 UTC+10 PMario wrote:
>>
>>> On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 3:24:54 AM UTC+2 TW Tones wrote:
>>>  
>>>
 However am I the only one who still intends to keep field names to a 
 defacto naming standard such as i-am-afield no caps or spaces? so It is 
 easy for me to tell field names apart from text and titles!

>>>
>>> No -- you are not.
>>>  
>>>
 Of course I look forward to naming fields using tiddler titles (and the 
 value a relationship type etc..). and to contain special prefixes or 
 suffixes such as "-link" or (link)  but as a rule I would like a little 
 structure and naming rules. 

>>>
>>> You wrote, you want to have tiddler titles as field names. So your 
>>> field-rules have to be the same or a superset of your title rules. I would 
>>> be surprised, if "no caps or spaces" is one of them. 
>>>  
>>>
 This always helps retain a degree of simplicity when managing lots of 
 complexity.

>>>
>>> Oh it will be funny, to deal with all the support requests here in the 
>>> group, because some ancient and / or unsupported plugins will break. ... 
>>> I'm not even sure, what my own plugins will do with "spaces" in field 
>>> names. ...  I will have to check that. 
>>>
>>> have fun!
>>> mario
>>>
>>

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[springer]

Jeremy and all,

I've played around with the updated prerelease file, starting by importing 
all the tiddlers from the "broken" version. So far, saves on github are 
going fine.

Only one (!) major glitch. If you name a field with a double-angle-bracket 
expression (Who would do such a thing?!), Shiraz gets confused. (Probably 
other tools would get confused too, but Shiraz is the thing I've been 
testing.)

For one proof-of-concept, I created a little ViewTemplate footer that 
provides a dynamic table overview of any tiddlers that use the current 
tiddler's title as a (non-empty) field name.

I do see some minor glitches with ViewTemplates (contents not looking as 
they should, conditional filters not behaving as they should), but it's 
possible my own limited trouble-shooting skills are to blame. It's also 
possible that some interaction with one or more <> is to blame.

If anyone wants to play around see here: 
https://springerspandrel.github.io/tw/new-json-tw-experiment.html

-Springer
On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 11:57:34 AM UTC-4 jeremy...@gmail.com wrote:

>
> On 21 Jul 2021, at 21:11, Saq Imtiaz  wrote:
>
> I believe this check for field names is the cause:
>
>
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/d455072f13dd00955ae82d62d2d6e44581bdba9e/boot/boot.js#L1606
>
>
> Thanks for your help with this, the problem with fields with spaces in 
> their names has been resolved here:
>
>
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/commit/19fd5ca5f26f798742e411453b30ad467b101a50
>
> The update will be live at https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease shortly,
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[Jeremy Ruston]

> On 21 Jul 2021, at 21:11, Saq Imtiaz  wrote:
> 
> I believe this check for field names is the cause:
> 
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/d455072f13dd00955ae82d62d2d6e44581bdba9e/boot/boot.js#L1606
>  
> 
Thanks for your help with this, the problem with fields with spaces in their 
names has been resolved here:

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/commit/19fd5ca5f26f798742e411453b30ad467b101a50
 


The update will be live at https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease 
 shortly,

Best wishes

Jeremy

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[springer]

Tones and Mario,

For public-facing projects, being able to name tiddlers with natural 
language expressions (including spaces) has been essential, and it seems 
much of the expanded power of fields in 5.2.0 will come from scanning for 
matches between field names and tiddler titles. 

(Emojis and such may seem trivial, but certain specialized unicode 
characters like Σ, plus expressions in two-byte languages like 字, are 
surely going to be leveraged by a significant user base as well.)

So, as much as it may seem logical to stick to CamelCase titles and 
a-z_special.string fieldnames for certain users, it seems the 
flexible-field-names horse is going to be galloping out of the barn as soon 
as the new version is available.

Might we figure out some way to test the compatibility of existing plugins 
(such as Shiraz) more systematically than by trial and error?

-Springer

On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 12:24:46 AM UTC-4 TW Tones wrote:

> Mario,
>
> I am glad someone concurs. For me with my de facto standards and the new 
> freedom, if a field name looks like a tiddler title it possibly is.
>
> Do you think many ancient and / or unsupported plugins will break?,. if 
> they use fields even extensively the issue will only be if they are used 
> against new fieldname standards. And until now at least we tended to honour 
> any values if not fieldnames.
>
> I will be honest though few if any system tiddlers I create have spaces or 
> quotes of any kind. even tags are usually single text strings, and I do 
> think I will stick to this, as it simplifies code. but yes, use it when the 
> exception makes sense.
>
> I have not yet considered what we may achieve by having field names that 
> can be wikified into something else, but again I personally intend to 
> proceed with caution. Perhaps the documentation can give some advice to 
> this effect, for example currently the fieldname restrictions help us when 
> generating csv files and if field names (and values) contain spaces, or 
> commas and quotes this may no longer be true. The documentation should 
> continue to list the previous limited naming standards as well. 
>
> I must say I also have de facto naming standards for titles even although 
> they are quite flexible, in fact most that I code follow a simple and 
> limited range. I like to leave the flexibility for when its needed. The one 
> exception is when a title is also textual content like a sentence or 
> paragraph.
>
> Regards
> Tones
> On Thursday, 22 July 2021 at 13:56:18 UTC+10 PMario wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 3:24:54 AM UTC+2 TW Tones wrote:
>>  
>>
>>> However am I the only one who still intends to keep field names to a 
>>> defacto naming standard such as i-am-afield no caps or spaces? so It is 
>>> easy for me to tell field names apart from text and titles!
>>>
>>
>> No -- you are not.
>>  
>>
>>> Of course I look forward to naming fields using tiddler titles (and the 
>>> value a relationship type etc..). and to contain special prefixes or 
>>> suffixes such as "-link" or (link)  but as a rule I would like a little 
>>> structure and naming rules. 
>>>
>>
>> You wrote, you want to have tiddler titles as field names. So your 
>> field-rules have to be the same or a superset of your title rules. I would 
>> be surprised, if "no caps or spaces" is one of them. 
>>  
>>
>>> This always helps retain a degree of simplicity when managing lots of 
>>> complexity.
>>>
>>
>> Oh it will be funny, to deal with all the support requests here in the 
>> group, because some ancient and / or unsupported plugins will break. ... 
>> I'm not even sure, what my own plugins will do with "spaces" in field 
>> names. ...  I will have to check that. 
>>
>> have fun!
>> mario
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[TW Tones]

Mario,

I am glad someone concurs. For me with my de facto standards and the new 
freedom, if a field name looks like a tiddler title it possibly is.

Do you think many ancient and / or unsupported plugins will break?,. if 
they use fields even extensively the issue will only be if they are used 
against new fieldname standards. And until now at least we tended to honour 
any values if not fieldnames.

I will be honest though few if any system tiddlers I create have spaces or 
quotes of any kind. even tags are usually single text strings, and I do 
think I will stick to this, as it simplifies code. but yes, use it when the 
exception makes sense.

I have not yet considered what we may achieve by having field names that 
can be wikified into something else, but again I personally intend to 
proceed with caution. Perhaps the documentation can give some advice to 
this effect, for example currently the fieldname restrictions help us when 
generating csv files and if field names (and values) contain spaces, or 
commas and quotes this may no longer be true. The documentation should 
continue to list the previous limited naming standards as well. 

I must say I also have de facto naming standards for titles even although 
they are quite flexible, in fact most that I code follow a simple and 
limited range. I like to leave the flexibility for when its needed. The one 
exception is when a title is also textual content like a sentence or 
paragraph.

Regards
Tones
On Thursday, 22 July 2021 at 13:56:18 UTC+10 PMario wrote:

> On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 3:24:54 AM UTC+2 TW Tones wrote:
>  
>
>> However am I the only one who still intends to keep field names to a 
>> defacto naming standard such as i-am-afield no caps or spaces? so It is 
>> easy for me to tell field names apart from text and titles!
>>
>
> No -- you are not.
>  
>
>> Of course I look forward to naming fields using tiddler titles (and the 
>> value a relationship type etc..). and to contain special prefixes or 
>> suffixes such as "-link" or (link)  but as a rule I would like a little 
>> structure and naming rules. 
>>
>
> You wrote, you want to have tiddler titles as field names. So your 
> field-rules have to be the same or a superset of your title rules. I would 
> be surprised, if "no caps or spaces" is one of them. 
>  
>
>> This always helps retain a degree of simplicity when managing lots of 
>> complexity.
>>
>
> Oh it will be funny, to deal with all the support requests here in the 
> group, because some ancient and / or unsupported plugins will break. ... 
> I'm not even sure, what my own plugins will do with "spaces" in field 
> names. ...  I will have to check that. 
>
> have fun!
> mario
>

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[PMario]

On Thursday, July 22, 2021 at 3:24:54 AM UTC+2 TW Tones wrote:
 

> However am I the only one who still intends to keep field names to a 
> defacto naming standard such as i-am-afield no caps or spaces? so It is 
> easy for me to tell field names apart from text and titles!
>

No -- you are not.
 

> Of course I look forward to naming fields using tiddler titles (and the 
> value a relationship type etc..). and to contain special prefixes or 
> suffixes such as "-link" or (link)  but as a rule I would like a little 
> structure and naming rules. 
>

You wrote, you want to have tiddler titles as field names. So your 
field-rules have to be the same or a superset of your title rules. I would 
be surprised, if "no caps or spaces" is one of them. 
 

> This always helps retain a degree of simplicity when managing lots of 
> complexity.
>

Oh it will be funny, to deal with all the support requests here in the 
group, because some ancient and / or unsupported plugins will break. ... 
I'm not even sure, what my own plugins will do with "spaces" in field 
names. ...  I will have to check that. 

have fun!
mario

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[TW Tones]

I am glad you are onto this bug, spaces in fieldnames,

However am I the only one who still intends to keep field names to a 
defacto naming standard such as i-am-afield no caps or spaces? so It is 
easy for me to tell field names apart from text and titles!

Of course I look forward to naming fields using tiddler titles (and the 
value a relationship type etc..). and to contain special prefixes or 
suffixes such as "-link" or (link)  but as a rule I would like a little 
structure and naming rules. 
This always helps retain a degree of simplicity when managing lots of 
complexity.

Regards
Tones


On Thursday, 22 July 2021 at 06:11:52 UTC+10 Saq Imtiaz wrote:

> I believe this check for field names is the cause:
>
>
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/d455072f13dd00955ae82d62d2d6e44581bdba9e/boot/boot.js#L1606
>
> On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 9:34:54 PM UTC+2 Saq Imtiaz wrote:
>
>> @Jeremy regarding this bug, I think it is related to having a space 
>> character in a field name.
>>
>> At https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/empty.html
>>
>> Create a new tiddler called "test" with a field name "my field" with a 
>> value of "hello".
>> Save and open the resultant file.
>>
>> You get a blank white screen, no errors in the console.
>>
>> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 6:32:46 PM UTC+2 Saq Imtiaz wrote:
>>
>>> I don't have the opportunity to debug this at the moment but I believe 
>>> this is the commit responsible:
>>>
>>> https://github.com/springerspandrel/tw/commit/49a0b1ef1ef37d79e514c0a9cf7685e8f4baa75f#diff-81fd67dbd185daf4f0208c57ff40d029e2c72509417aec3bcb2f651900573431R265
>>>
>>> Seems like the boot process just doesn't load anything and we get a 
>>> blank screen.
>>>
>>> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 6:30:19 PM UTC+2 Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>>
 Hi Springer 

 Was it a "red screen of embarrassment" crash? It would certainly be 
 helpful to pin it down if we can. 

 > I'd also welcome tips on how to get github to actually download files 
 from the history (When I try, I just get html within a new browser tab). 

 It's a bit convoluted: first, click on the three dots at the top right 
 of the file in the commit listing: 



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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[Saq Imtiaz]

I believe this check for field names is the cause:

https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/blob/d455072f13dd00955ae82d62d2d6e44581bdba9e/boot/boot.js#L1606

On Wednesday, July 21, 2021 at 9:34:54 PM UTC+2 Saq Imtiaz wrote:

> @Jeremy regarding this bug, I think it is related to having a space 
> character in a field name.
>
> At https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/empty.html
>
> Create a new tiddler called "test" with a field name "my field" with a 
> value of "hello".
> Save and open the resultant file.
>
> You get a blank white screen, no errors in the console.
>
> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 6:32:46 PM UTC+2 Saq Imtiaz wrote:
>
>> I don't have the opportunity to debug this at the moment but I believe 
>> this is the commit responsible:
>>
>> https://github.com/springerspandrel/tw/commit/49a0b1ef1ef37d79e514c0a9cf7685e8f4baa75f#diff-81fd67dbd185daf4f0208c57ff40d029e2c72509417aec3bcb2f651900573431R265
>>
>> Seems like the boot process just doesn't load anything and we get a blank 
>> screen.
>>
>> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 6:30:19 PM UTC+2 Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Springer 
>>>
>>> Was it a "red screen of embarrassment" crash? It would certainly be 
>>> helpful to pin it down if we can. 
>>>
>>> > I'd also welcome tips on how to get github to actually download files 
>>> from the history (When I try, I just get html within a new browser tab). 
>>>
>>> It's a bit convoluted: first, click on the three dots at the top right 
>>> of the file in the commit listing: 
>>>
>>>

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[Saq Imtiaz]

@Jeremy regarding this bug, I think it is related to having a space 
character in a field name.

At https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/empty.html

Create a new tiddler called "test" with a field name "my field" with a 
value of "hello".
Save and open the resultant file.

You get a blank white screen, no errors in the console.

On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 6:32:46 PM UTC+2 Saq Imtiaz wrote:

> I don't have the opportunity to debug this at the moment but I believe 
> this is the commit responsible:
>
> https://github.com/springerspandrel/tw/commit/49a0b1ef1ef37d79e514c0a9cf7685e8f4baa75f#diff-81fd67dbd185daf4f0208c57ff40d029e2c72509417aec3bcb2f651900573431R265
>
> Seems like the boot process just doesn't load anything and we get a blank 
> screen.
>
> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 6:30:19 PM UTC+2 Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
>> Hi Springer
>>
>> Was it a "red screen of embarrassment" crash? It would certainly be 
>> helpful to pin it down if we can.
>>
>> > I'd also welcome tips on how to get github to actually download files 
>> from the history (When I try, I just get html within a new browser tab).
>>
>> It's a bit convoluted: first, click on the three dots at the top right of 
>> the file in the commit listing:
>>
>>

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[springer]

Since I need to be away for a while, and in case it's helpful, here's a 
link to the entire json segment (copied from "inspect" tool from crash 
window):

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8h1nb4z3npl6odj/json-store-from-crash.json?dl=0

Oddly, I can drag this whole json file onto the official pre-release, and 
apart from duplications and plugin version-conflicts, I see no errors on 
import preview, and import seems to work fine. 

But of course I'm not saving to github from there... 

Tapping out for now...

-Springer


On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 12:37:26 PM UTC-4 springer wrote:

> No red screen! Just "poof" no tiddlywiki interface.
>
> But here's one clue: I tried exporting a json set of tiddlers from the 
> non-crash "early" version (which you can load at url above), and THAT json 
> export file, when re-imported, yields an error that suggests the dynamic 
> table's json entry didn't get proper "closure" (the error is "between" that 
> one and the next tiddler in the json list).
>
> So, it may be safe to assume, for now, that something about Shiraz's 
> dynamic tables needs updating. Which of course would be in some ways 
> surprising if it weren't so, since it was built within the old assumptions 
> about how fields can be named.
>
> Also, I *do* have a window with the failed file "loaded" (white screen). 
> So I could use "inspect" to get at the json list...
>
> [image: From Clipboard.jpg]
>
>
>
> On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 12:30:19 PM UTC-4 jeremy...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Hi Springer 
>>
>> Was it a "red screen of embarrassment" crash? It would certainly be 
>> helpful to pin it down if we can. 
>>
>> > I'd also welcome tips on how to get github to actually download files 
>> from the history (When I try, I just get html within a new browser tab). 
>>
>> It's a bit convoluted: first, click on the three dots at the top right of 
>> the file in the commit listing: 
>>
>>

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[springer]

No red screen! Just "poof" no tiddlywiki interface.

But here's one clue: I tried exporting a json set of tiddlers from the 
non-crash "early" version (which you can load at url above), and THAT json 
export file, when re-imported, yields an error that suggests the dynamic 
table's json entry didn't get proper "closure" (the error is "between" that 
one and the next tiddler in the json list).

So, it may be safe to assume, for now, that something about Shiraz's 
dynamic tables needs updating. Which of course would be in some ways 
surprising if it weren't so, since it was built within the old assumptions 
about how fields can be named.

Also, I *do* have a window with the failed file "loaded" (white screen). So 
I could use "inspect" to get at the json list...

[image: From Clipboard.jpg]



On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 12:30:19 PM UTC-4 jeremy...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi Springer
>
> Was it a "red screen of embarrassment" crash? It would certainly be 
> helpful to pin it down if we can.
>
> > I'd also welcome tips on how to get github to actually download files 
> from the history (When I try, I just get html within a new browser tab).
>
> It's a bit convoluted: first, click on the three dots at the top right of 
> the file in the commit listing:
>
>

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Re: [tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[Saq Imtiaz]

I don't have the opportunity to debug this at the moment but I believe this 
is the commit responsible:
https://github.com/springerspandrel/tw/commit/49a0b1ef1ef37d79e514c0a9cf7685e8f4baa75f#diff-81fd67dbd185daf4f0208c57ff40d029e2c72509417aec3bcb2f651900573431R265

Seems like the boot process just doesn't load anything and we get a blank 
screen.

On Friday, July 16, 2021 at 6:30:19 PM UTC+2 Jeremy Ruston wrote:

> Hi Springer
>
> Was it a "red screen of embarrassment" crash? It would certainly be 
> helpful to pin it down if we can.
>
> > I'd also welcome tips on how to get github to actually download files 
> from the history (When I try, I just get html within a new browser tab).
>
> It's a bit convoluted: first, click on the three dots at the top right of 
> the file in the commit listing:
>
>

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[tw5] I broke the json pre-release :|

[springer]

Jeremy and all: I "broke" the pre-release this morning, recklessly pushing 
the limits with field-names (saving on github).

Alas, it's not easy for me to reconstruct what the last straw was. I don't 
know how to restore (to the most recent non-broken version) with github, so 
as to retrace the most recent steps. (What's public-facing, now, is now a 
very early state that I restored from Chrome, where I had opened it up 
prior to digging in much: 
https://springerspandrel.github.io/tw/new-json-tw-experiment.html)

Here's the github history url: 
https://github.com/springerspandrel/tw/commits/c5a8c5807f22eb35cec72baf9b5a496a1d7a67ac/new-json-tw-experiment.html

My best quick reconstruction: 

1. I had begun by pushing the boundaries with field-names (Japanese words 
(yay!); emoji; names with spaces and eventually getting bold with special 
code-like strings). I switched from Chrome to Safari to observe some of the 
ways that the browsers differ in how/whether they display emoji (such as ⁉️ 

)

2. I spent a while tinkering with getting Shiraz dynamic tables to show a 
row for each non-system field, then making each field-name into a tiddler 
by filling in its caption column and various other silly field parameters, 
like a ★★★☆☆ rating column. (I discovered Shiraz can apparently can also 
render columns not only for emojis and such, but also for field names with 
spaces, if you just put [[field name]] in double-brackets). All was 
behaving well, and saves were surprisingly fast...

3. I had moved on to trying to define a macro to expand within Shiraz, to 
get Shiraz to work with the string 
$(whatever-this-tiddlers-non-system-fields-are)$ as column set... (I had 
pulled in a tobibeer code about exercise-values to reverse-engineer, so any 
version with the string "exercise" is close to when it crashed).

It was while I was tinkering with that macro-variable tiddler (and perhaps 
with a stray keystroke I unwittingly committed the tiddler and triggered a 
save?) that the whole thing crashed. Somehow with one keystroke  the 
browser window blinked to white, and all attempts to reload yielded a 
completely blank screen (until I over-wrote with the much earlier version 
from other browser).

So, as Jeremy says, the pre-release is not for vital projects yet. ;)  

I'm happy to "help" by trying to break it again, but since I'm not sure 
what went wrong, I'll take a break until someone else has some insight. If 
I need to do anything at github to help others see "under the bonnet" ;) , 
I'm happy to do that. I'd also welcome tips on how to get github to 
actually download files from the history (When I try, I just get html 
within a new browser tab).

-Springer

On Wednesday, July 14, 2021 at 7:35:46 AM UTC-4 jeremy...@gmail.com wrote:

> It doesn’t sound very exciting, but the new JSON-based store area has now 
> been merged into the prerelease.
>
> https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/
>
> This is the big change that has prompted us moving from v5.1.23 to v5.2.0. 
> It brings one major benefit to all users of TiddlyWIki: the characters used 
> in field names are now unrestricted, making it possible to use fieldnames 
> like "My^Field” or “☃️”.
>
> While that is an important change that we hope will lead to the 
> development of interesting new techniques for working with data in 
> TiddlyWiki, the biggest risk of this change is that it is not fully 
> backwards compatible.
>
> That is to say that *any tools that work directly with TiddlyWiki files 
> will no longer work as expected, and need updating to understand the new 
> format*.
>
> The new format is documented here:
>
>
> https://tiddlywiki.com/prerelease/dev/#Data%20Storage%20in%20Single%20File%20TiddlyWiki
>
> We have tried to anticipate the problems that this change might cause, for 
> example working with Simon Baird to fix TiddlyHost ready for the change. 
> You can follow the technical discussions here:
>
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/5708
>
> But now we need everyone’s help to try the new version, to help us 
> identify any incompatibilities before the final release.
>
> Please try the prerelease with as many different saving mechanisms and 
> server backends as possible. You can report any problems here, or by 
> opening a new ticket on GitHub.
>
> For me personally this feels like a big milestone. TW5 has used the same 
> DIV-based tiddler store area since the very beginning in 2011, having 
> directly inherited it from TiddlyWiki Classic. I reused the old format to 
> give TW5 compatibility with the ecosystem of tools around TiddlyWiki 
> Classic. Now that the TW5 ecosystem is so much bigger, it makes sense to 
> move to a store area format that has fewer restrictions and is easier for 
> developers to work with.
>
> Just for fun, I wrote a Node.js one-liner to extract the tiddlers from a 
> TiddlyWiki HTML file. In contrast, a few hundred lines wer