Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

*Mat *I need to play around with TW, I don't remember no all the situations 
system tiddlers were in the way. I will be reporting more in the future 
regarding this. Tags dropdown is one place where like springer said, it 
would be great to "fold" system tags under "System tags" link in the 
dropdown.

–––

TonyM the thread now is divided into pagination, I don't know why. I guess 
too many messages. The lead post is still there.

It is dangerous to "Redesign" something to meet goals that have already 
> being achieved. 

It really depends who have those goals... I really don't think newcomer and 
content writer goals are met, there are broader audiences of people that 
could use TiddlyWiki, but they choose weaker tools, because they like the 
interface and usability better. Plenty of youtube review videos proving 
that.

But I can understand that from a power user perspective this seems like a 
lot of unnecessary effort.

But if we want to improve things for all, let's turn the approach of 
improving things upside down, let's define the far vision, and then reverse 
engineer the steps until there. That might involve a lot of tweaking of the 
vision and ideas. BUT there are still bigger chances to end up where you 
want to be, rather than keep patching things, pulling to different 
directions that does not belong to one common vision. The design proposal 
has no means of jumping to final implementation. It's an iteration, and it 
requires patience to keep going with uncertainty. It's an invitation to 
explore the future vision, without being limited by existing constraints. 
And if there are too big of constraints, then why we are talking that TW is 
so modular and everyone can modify it to their own needs??

I like this pop quote, somewhat related:

*"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we 
> created them."  ~ A. Einstein*


–––

Thomas is it possible to download the whole icon pack at one? In my opinion 
the TW icons a quite bold/thick, introduces a lot of visual weight. I with 
there was a thinner, and more simplified 
version, maybe not so "soft/rounded" also to reduce the particular styling.

–––
I guess let's move to the TiddlyWikiUI group:) 

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Thomas Elmiger]

Hi folks

Here’s my collection of TW icons (and a few more in a similar style), where
I suggest to add an optional secondary colour to at least some icons to
highlight what they stand for:
https://tid.li/tw5/apps/svg.html#Advanced%20Icon%20Editing

Feel free to take from here!

All the best,
Thomas

Edgaras wrote:
>>
>> Regarding icons https://remixicon.com is the best open source pack I've
>> found. 2149 very nice neutral icons. I am not big. I like that balance
>> between softness and sharpness. By the way is there somewhere the
>> TiddlyWiki icon pack?
>>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Rizwan Ishak]

@Tony
Mat started the group

On Fri, 22 May 2020, 11:05 TonyM,  wrote:

> FYI Riz has started a Google Group for UI Changes
>
> Please consider discussing this elephant task over there
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!forum/tiddlywikiui
>
> Regards
> Tony
>
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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Birthe C]

Edgaras,

torsdag den 21. maj 2020 kl. 22.08.32 UTC+2 skrev Edgaras:
>
>  I think, like we discussed above, it would be great if you could switch 
> to managing/developing/building mode with a switch icon to do all these 
> system things. And when I switch back to writing more, it's only my 
> content, peace and calm;))
>

I understand now and agree.


Birthe

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[springer]

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 5:04:14 PM UTC-4, Mat wrote:
>
>  
>
>> In my experience I was seeing system tiddlers in unwanted places like 
>> between my tag selection. I am just saying maybe content tiddlers needs a 
>> bit of separation in styling or placement. This still needs to be explored. 
>>
>
> Still not sure what you mean here. When picking tags, you do get system 
> tiddlers but they are at the bottom of the tag-picker list, separated from 
> non-system tags by a line.  But you bring up different *modes*, which may 
> be a good idea and where system tids should presumably not show. Makes 
> sense.
>
> Certainly the tag manager is a place where I'd love to have an easy way to 
fold all the system tags away somehow so that when I'm focused on my 
content, I can easily see just the tags that are specific to my wiki. 

Similarly, in the Recent list, it would be great to have all or nearly all 
pre-loaded tiddlers tucked away somehow, so that the recent list shows 
content that is specific to this particular wiki.

Perhaps an empty TW5 could include a "close the hood/bonnet" button that 
would toggle visibility for *all* the stuff that is not relevant while 
editing content (when that content is not itself TW-intertwined stuff).

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mat]

Edgaras wrote:
>
> Regarding icons https://remixicon.com is the best open source pack I've 
> found. 2149 very nice neutral icons. I am not big. I like that balance 
> between softness and sharpness. By the way is there somewhere the 
> TiddlyWiki icon pack?
>

Very good icon pack! The closest we get to a TW icon pack would be:

<$list filter="[all[tiddlers+shadows]tag[$:/tags/Image]]"><$link 
tooltip="{{!!title}}"><$transclude/>

...or perhaps:

http://fa5-free-svg.tiddlyspot.com/

It is worth noting that icons typically need some mangling to fit well into 
TW so they size right etc.

 

> In my experience I was seeing system tiddlers in unwanted places like 
> between my tag selection. I am just saying maybe content tiddlers needs a 
> bit of separation in styling or placement. This still needs to be explored. 
>

Still not sure what you mean here. When picking tags, you do get system 
tiddlers but they are at the bottom of the tag-picker list, separated from 
non-system tags by a line.  But you bring up different *modes*, which may 
be a good idea and where system tids should presumably not show. Makes 
sense.


Also I think there is some visual work to do, simplifying icons, adjusting 
> contrast, spacing, hiding less used icons under "more" icon, also providing 
> customisation menu.


All very interesting. 


*Mat *I don't think it helps much to move to another thread, just for 
> limiting the view to other users. I would rather move somewhere where it's 
> possible to have threaded discussions on each comment. Also I created *TW 
> Revamp Outline 
> *Google
>  
> docs where is possible to actually write in a structured manner and have 
> comments for each word or paragraph. What if we do it there?
>

Yeah, maybe that's good enough. It's obviously not threaded discussions tho.
 

Regading system tiddlers, whenever I install some plugin or theme, 
> something gets messed up, suddenly there are system tiddlers in my tags for 
> example. This happened when I installed Stroll for example. In general, 
> it's a little weird to see system tiddlers opening in the same view with my 
> content. It gets mixed up in the vertical storyview. I think, like we 
> discussed above, it would be great if you could switch to 
> managing/developing/building mode with a switch icon to do all these system 
> things. And when I switch back to writing more, it's only my content, peace 
> and calm;))
>

I can't speak for Stroll but, as noted, system titles do show up in the 
tag-picker because one does occasionally want to pick them. Same with 
system tiddlers in the story view. (But then, why did you open them if you 
didn't want them?) But, yeah, it makes sense to separate into different 
modes. Should be fairly simple to do. 

Just sent a join-request for TW Revamp Outline 

. 

<:-)

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

*Mat*

That indicates your vision is a single tiddler view mode - ? I would 
> definitely not like this for default TW because it makes open data much 
> more difficult to access.

No, I agree it's good idea to have the vertical story river and even split 
view. The arrows are only for navigating back and forwards through the 
visited notes. I find myself lost when I click on many links at the time, I 
just want to come back to where I was 2 clicks before.

Regarding icons https://remixicon.com is the best open source pack I've 
found. 2149 very nice neutral icons. I am not big. I like that balance 
between softness and sharpness. By the way is there somewhere the 
TiddlyWiki icon pack?

I'm not sure what you mean here with system tiddlers. System tiddlers are 
> (simply!) tiddlers that have the prefix $:/ and this hides them from 
> showing up in most lists. In my post to which you reply, I bring up system 
> fields, i.e the few "reserved words/names" that are used for data fields in 
> the system. 

In my experience I was seeing system tiddlers in unwanted places like 
between my tag selection. I am just saying maybe content tiddlers needs a 
bit of separation in styling or placement. This still needs to be explored. 

We need to consider both "writing" and "using".

Yes, that's the reason I was wondering about how to have different modes 
for that. Maybe some button that switches the general mode of the whole 
editor. Am I in the writing/thinking mode or am I in organizing/building 
mode. This is interesting what you write:

> "distraction free light markup", "full WikiTexting with direct tool 
> access", "full on display of all features"


 I like "hover to show" but I know Jeremy is not fond of this because he 
> thinks it is problematic on touch screens... yet, it is commonly used on 
> touch screens where, if I recall, it instead is "touch to show".

Yes, there could be combination of hover for desktop and touch for mobile, 
or click for both. Also I think there is some visual work to do, 
simplifying icons, adjusting contrast, spacing, hiding less used icons 
under "more" icon, also providing customisation menu.

*Mat *I don't think it helps much to move to another thread, just for 
limiting the view to other users. I would rather move somewhere where it's 
possible to have threaded discussions on each comment. Also I created *TW 
Revamp Outline 
*Google
 
docs where is possible to actually write in a structured manner and have 
comments for each word or paragraph. What if we do it there?

Birthe C thank you for your kind words! As I wrote above I am not sure 
another thread will help much here, I would rather have threaded discussion 
for each comment or let's move to the collaborative document: *TW Revamp 
Outline 
.*

Regading system tiddlers, whenever I install some plugin or theme, 
something gets messed up, suddenly there are system tiddlers in my tags for 
example. This happened when I installed Stroll for example. In general, 
it's a little weird to see system tiddlers opening in the same view with my 
content. It gets mixed up in the vertical storyview. I think, like we 
discussed above, it would be great if you could switch to 
managing/developing/building mode with a switch icon to do all these system 
things. And when I switch back to writing more, it's only my content, peace 
and calm;))






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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Rizwan Ishak]

@Mat

I am getting a "You do not have permission to access this content" error

Can you check this thread regarding the above mentioned error message

https://support.google.com/a/thread/7309984?hl=en=7338450

On Thu, 21 May 2020, 18:44 Birthe C,  wrote:

> Mat,
> So sorry. Once upon a time I just saw something working like that in one
> of your tiddlyspots (I cannot even remember which one it was). I had to try
> it...that is why I called it by your name.
>
> torsdag den 21. maj 2020 kl. 15.06.44 UTC+2 skrev Mat:
>>
>> Birthe C wrote:
>>>
>>> I have seen and tried Mats hover, but it kind of flickers and I do not
>>> find it easy to use. At least not on my computer.
>>>
>>
>> There's a "Mats hover"? I am just referring to the general technique, it
>> is not mine. It works well on many (non-TW) sites and other apps.
>>
>> <:-)
>>
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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mat]

Everyone and @Riz

My proposal is merely to have a place where posts on a TW UI makeover *doesn't 
drown in all the other discussions*, so I made this:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/tiddlywikiui

It is NOT a place to ask for help or where we hope for as many members as 
possible. It is simply a separate place to avoid all the cacophony here so 
we can focus on discussing a redesign of the TW UI. When the issues 
discussed are sorted out, the group could "die" just like a separate thread 
here would - but with the difference that it is multiple such threads 
collected in one place for better overview.

Feel free to join or keep discussing here in the noise. This thread, to 
name one example, is already way too long and would benefit from splitting 
up to focus on the ideas separately.

<:-)

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Rizwan Ishak]

@Mat: oh no

The idea of a community repo is to ensure a parallel system of testing
visual changes, documentation and other feature sets without bothering
Jeremy for every silly thing. Pushing the important changes to core while
keeping the rest in a community repo mirroring main repo, will keep the
main repo clean.

I have not done this for two reasons

1. Such a community repo should be owned by members much senior to me.
Somebody who has intimate knowledge of wikitext and JavaScript. A
organisational Repo can have more than one owner - So may be 3 owners.

2. Even such a move should have Jeremy's go ahead. Because unlike
individual plugin repos, organisational repos based on TW5 is a more
serious affair.

If such an community repo becomes real, there can be teams under that with
jobs assigned to review new documentation and may be even a curated plugin
list. I would my time and knowledge in whatever way I can to such an
endeavour, but not initiative.

I have learned well from Reddit experience :)

Sincerely,
Riz



On Thu, 21 May 2020, 16:43 Mat,  wrote:

> Edgaras wrote:
>>
>> - Arrows are for navigating back and forward, which tiddler you visited
>> the latest (clicking on links). I updated arrows to look less like
>> redo/undo.
>>
>
> That indicates your vision is a single tiddler view mode - ? I would
> definitely not like this for default TW because it makes open data much
> more difficult to access.
>
>
>
>> - Icons and background I need to test. I was not fan of the original
>> icons, but maybe that's bias, I will try them on the new layout.
>>
>
> I believe, the icons are custom made by Jeremy. I personally like them but
> a big disadvantage is that one cannot easily find new icons with a similar
> style. The optimal would either be if we had a custom made, very rich set (
> ref ) or, more
> easily, just use some rich open source alternative.
>
>
>
>> - I think we need some general consideration around system tiddlers. I
>> think there could be a way to seperate content and system tiddlers. I've
>> seen some interesting theme, where tiddlers were in the sidebar, I think
>> some system tiddlers could be pinned to the sidebar, so they are always at
>> reach.
>>
>
> I'm not sure what you mean here with system tiddlers. System tiddlers are
> (simply!) tiddlers that have the prefix $:/ and this hides them from
> showing up in most lists. In my post to which you reply, I bring up system
> fields, i.e the few "reserved words/names" that are used for data fields in
> the system.
>
>
>
>> - Even if TW is for personal use, it does not have to be messy... Many
>> people want to have a distraction free writing and thinking experience.
>> That's the key for me. The "prettiness" come from practicality, hiding
>> things that you don't use too often. It's a balance yet to be found,
>> through iterations we will find way to prioritise more used items and make
>> them more visible.
>>
>
> We need to consider both "writing" and "using" actually, for writing,
> we should perhaps even differentiate between typing text (e.g a markup'ed
> poem) and more complex "WikiTexting" where you need access to tools and you
> need to look up titles for other tiddlers, etc. The former, i.e the typing
> of simple text would benefit from distraction free (I like the OMM
> interface , old video I know
> but those click sounds and the music... h) - but WikiTexting probably
> can't be quite that.
>
>
> Again, it helps to be more specific – here I agree with you, sidebar
>> should be more prominent, probably open by the default. I will work on
>> sidebar.
>>
>
> One could imagine a toggle up in corner for e.g "distraction free light
> markup", "full WikiTexting with direct tool access", "full on display of
> all features"
>
>
> - Yes, toolbar needs to be re-introduced, I forgot in this iteration. My
>> take on toolbar is like this:
>>   a. It should be possible to hide toolbar by default. (Maybe
>> already is, but I want that on the spot)
>>
>
> I like "hover to show" but I know Jeremy is not fond of this because he
> thinks it is problematic on touch screens... yet, it is commonly used on
> touch screens where, if I recall, it instead is "touch to show".
>
>
>
>>   b. Balloon popup toolbox is super good idea. I would use that a
>> lot when toolbar is hidden (also should be possible to customize on the
>> spot, maybe small link icon that leads to settings.)
>>
>
> Yeah, I find that controls should be as close to *here *as possible AND
> also collected in a central place. TW and transclusion is perfect for this;
> dispersed doses of local control for the context AN D a central
> Controlplanel aggregating them all.
>
>
> Referring back to @Riz point; maybe this discussion should be moved into a
> Github repo (you created one, right @Riz?). The thread is split up here so
> it is difficult to navigate to what is 

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Joshua Fontany]

I agree with Riz, this is very very good design. Definitely looking forward 
to seeing more from you!

Best,
Joshua F

On Wednesday, May 20, 2020 at 3:40:01 PM UTC-7, Riz wrote:
>
> Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Modern, minimalist, true to TW5 nature 
> and professional. I have been keenly following this community for the past 
> five years, and on the visual aspect of matters, this is the best thing 
> that has happened by a wide margin. 
>
> If there an invisible priority list for stuff to be put into core, I would 
> vote for this to be on the top of it.
>
> Once Jeremy finds his strength back, ping him to this thread and take his 
> view, so that this would be a reality. 
>
> Sincerely,
> Riz.
>
> On Thu, 21 May 2020, 03:56 Edgaras, > 
> wrote:
>
>> Alright, I gave another shot for the prototype. I accept the fact that 
>> redeveloping the core editor might be too big of the task from the 
>> beginning... That's unfortunate, 
>> but I adapted the prototype to keep the current editor:
>>
>> Key changes:
>> - View/edit in two modes instead of one
>> - Moved "Meta info" section down
>> - To mimic the card style, I added a border to the tiddler, so it will be 
>> visible when there are more than one.
>> - Moved favorite start in the same line with tags
>>
>> *Important part about this design is that you can edit everything on 
>> tiddler right away without going to edit mode, except the main body of the 
>> tiddler, that requires editing mode.*
>>
>> *See the video 
>>  *
>> *And try the prototype in Figma 
>> 
>>  *
>>
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Rizwan Ishak]

Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. Modern, minimalist, true to TW5 nature and
professional. I have been keenly following this community for the past five
years, and on the visual aspect of matters, this is the best thing that has
happened by a wide margin.

If there an invisible priority list for stuff to be put into core, I would
vote for this to be on the top of it.

Once Jeremy finds his strength back, ping him to this thread and take his
view, so that this would be a reality.

Sincerely,
Riz.

On Thu, 21 May 2020, 03:56 Edgaras,  wrote:

> Alright, I gave another shot for the prototype. I accept the fact that
> redeveloping the core editor might be too big of the task from the
> beginning... That's unfortunate,
> but I adapted the prototype to keep the current editor:
>
> Key changes:
> - View/edit in two modes instead of one
> - Moved "Meta info" section down
> - To mimic the card style, I added a border to the tiddler, so it will be
> visible when there are more than one.
> - Moved favorite start in the same line with tags
>
> *Important part about this design is that you can edit everything on
> tiddler right away without going to edit mode, except the main body of the
> tiddler, that requires editing mode.*
>
> *See the video
>  *
> *And try the prototype in Figma
> 
>  *
>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Rizwan Ishak]

Glad you find Tekan amusing.

So if let me try and summarise.

If markdown was the main markup system, users would find TW5 more
accessible?

On Tue, 19 May 2020, 05:41 Edgaras,  wrote:

> Mat I think there is a bit of difference tinkering in tiddlytext and
> something widespread and future proof as html/css/js.
> Also there are much more resources, people had every single problem
> thousands of times.
>
> I strongly agree with central place where to publish stuff. Imagine if
> there was a website where top solutions are promoted, voted up. Those would
> get attention and be improved by donations and contributions. Over the
> month with TW I kept discovering great stuff, just couple of days ago I
> discovered Tekan
>  by *Riz.
> *Truly amazing example of how TW can be anything.
>
> –––
>
> *Riz *I am up for a discussion and feedback! I really want to help TW.
> Let me try to explain.
>
> Given that HTML is the target for both
>
> This is not true for me. I only want to publish some of my notes. It's
> important for me to also build a personal knowledge system. With the right
> format and organisation system Niklas Luhmann developed his "second brain"
> – the Zettelkasten modular noting system just by using paper notes. I want
> to achieve similar with modular human readable, file based digital notes.
> Markdown fits perfectly for this purpose, the format is universal, very
> portable, supported by many editors, systems. So I strongly agree with Scott
> here. Markdown is a strong original readable format. I like the idea of
> starting with Markdown (in some cases JSON or CSV) as a base data/model
> format
> and then add logic and structure with html/css/js.
>
> Next very important thing for me is the editing experience. If I spend a
> lot of time writing, I want it to be pleasant and calm. That's why I love
> Typora , a super minimal text editor, doing
> one job well – editing content. The editing interface is separated from my
> data files, I can change to another editor at any time I want. That being
> said, I wish Typora had some of the
> RoamResearch superpowers. And funny enough something like that was
> released couple of months ago – Obsidian . I think
> in time we will see more and more editors that are made
> for interconnected thoughts, complex thinking.
>
> I also wish TW would become like that one day – a tool that connects well
> with other workflows and not a monolith system (that is super modular but
> internally).
>
> I use VSCode but it's optimized for coding and not for writing. The
> interface is way too complex for a writing tool.
>
> Maybe that's another thing that I would like to see in TW – much more
> separation between building the tool/tinkering and writing, thinking
> connecting thoughts. It's like when you are driving a car you don't wan to
> see all the engines and electronics (while some people still would enjoy
> that).
>
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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

Mat I think there is a bit of difference tinkering in tiddlytext and 
something widespread and future proof as html/css/js. 
Also there are much more resources, people had every single problem 
thousands of times. 

I strongly agree with central place where to publish stuff. Imagine if 
there was a website where top solutions are promoted, voted up. Those would 
get attention and be improved by donations and contributions. Over the 
month with TW I kept discovering great stuff, just couple of days ago I 
discovered Tekan 
 by *Riz. 
*Truly 
amazing example of how TW can be anything.

–––

*Riz *I am up for a discussion and feedback! I really want to help TW. Let 
me try to explain.

Given that HTML is the target for both

This is not true for me. I only want to publish some of my notes. It's 
important for me to also build a personal knowledge system. With the right 
format and organisation system Niklas Luhmann developed his "second brain" 
– the Zettelkasten modular noting system just by using paper notes. I want 
to achieve similar with modular human readable, file based digital notes. 
Markdown fits perfectly for this purpose, the format is universal, very 
portable, supported by many editors, systems. So I strongly agree with Scott 
here. Markdown is a strong original readable format. I like the idea of 
starting with Markdown (in some cases JSON or CSV) as a base data/model 
format 
and then add logic and structure with html/css/js.

Next very important thing for me is the editing experience. If I spend a 
lot of time writing, I want it to be pleasant and calm. That's why I love 
Typora , a super minimal text editor, doing
one job well – editing content. The editing interface is separated from my 
data files, I can change to another editor at any time I want. That being 
said, I wish Typora had some of the
RoamResearch superpowers. And funny enough something like that was released 
couple of months ago – Obsidian . I think in time we 
will see more and more editors that are made 
for interconnected thoughts, complex thinking. 

I also wish TW would become like that one day – a tool that connects well 
with other workflows and not a monolith system (that is super modular but 
internally).

I use VSCode but it's optimized for coding and not for writing. The 
interface is way too complex for a writing tool. 

Maybe that's another thing that I would like to see in TW – much more 
separation between building the tool/tinkering and writing, thinking 
connecting thoughts. It's like when you are driving a car you don't wan to 
see all the engines and electronics (while some people still would enjoy 
that).

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Scott Sauyet]

On Monday, May 18, 2020 at 3:51:00 PM UTC-4, Riz wrote:
>
>
> Personally I do not see much difference between markdown markup and 
tiddlywiki markup.

The very first thing I do on starting anything new with tiddlywiki is to 
install the Markdown plugin.  I spend a great deal of time on 
GitHub/GitLab, on StackOverflow and many other places where some flavor of 
Markdown is the default.  It's not simply muscle memory -- although that's 
part of it -- but the simplicity is quite welcome.


> Given that HTML is the target for both, ultimately what markup we choose 
is pointless.

Ah, but I think of HTML as one possible viewing target.  I read Markdown in 
many ways, and one of the most common ways is in the original format.  
Where Markdown really shines is in how readable the basic format is without 
any translation.

Of course tiddlywiki markup is much more powerful, and all the TW tools are 
at your disposal when working in it.  So for anything more complicated, I 
use it.  But for writing basic text I've found nothing more useful than 
Markdown.

  -- Scott

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Rizwan Ishak]

Hi Edgaras,

I respect your decision. Tiddlywiki is a great tool, but people are
different with different priorities and no single tool can meet them all. I
hope you find joy in your new note taking system.

As someone interested in improving tiddlywiki to a point where people like
you will be able to use it more comfortably, I would like to know more
specifically what did you find difficult  to accomplish.

I am asking this because I see that your current choice is markdown and
eleventy. Personally I do not see much difference between markdown markup
and tiddlywiki markup. Given that HTML is the target for both, ultimately
what markup we choose is pointless. Given that basic characteristics
offered by markdown and wikitext are the same, and wikitext offers more
possibilities (which are optional), I often find it interesting that users
prefer markdown.
You are clearly comfortable using terminal. So static site generation is
not an issue too.

Again, I am not criticising your choices. We are all knowledge workers and
what works for us is what we ought to choose. I am merely trying to satisfy
my curiosity.

You seems like a person who would enjoy writing in a proper text editor
than in browser. So I will leave you with a suggestion. Use VSCode and
TiddlyBob next time you want to give tiddlywiki a try. Bob will update what
you time in text editor almost instantaneously in browser, so that you can
see the finished product. VSCode has its own snippet manager and tons of
other useful plugins.

Sincerely,
Riz

On Mon, 18 May 2020, 23:52 Edgaras Benediktavicus, 
wrote:

> *Riz *I put this project on pause. I wanted mainly to address the editor
> experience, but seems like it's a huge job to do. The learning curve of
> TiddlyWiki is too big for me for now. I might come back to this project in
> the future. I had a fun month with TiddlyWiki, but it was also very time
> consuming to make it work the way I wanted and to adjust the looks and
> feels.
>
> For now I am exploring other ways to organise and publish my notes. Typora
> (.md) files + 11ty static site builder (html, css, js) + espanso text
> expander for code snippets. I like the idea of having my notes by default
> as seperate static files on my computer in a universal format. And I am
> more comfortable with html/css/js than learning tiddlytext.
>
> At this point in time the learning curve is way to high for me to optimize
> the interface and workflow the way I want with TiddlyWiki.
>
> I think TiddlyWiki is still a super tool and is very promising with all
> what's done. But at the moment a bit too inconsistent, difficult to use.
> Plugins help but then everything is very patchy.
>
> I know for many people TW is a hobby. But I just want a tool that works, I
> don't want to tinker with it every day, keep fixing bugs and
> inconsistencies.
>
> Therefore, I think it requires a different organised approach to asses the
> vision and make it more modern, matching the nowadays needs and
> expectations (RoamResearch, Obsidian content editor, static site
> builders...).
>
> If somebody is serious about this, I would be willing to join to help
> shaping the new vision and design in the future.
>
> Cheers.
>
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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Mohammad]

Edgaras,

 I think the writing now is quite straight forward! I watched the video! 
You need a real prototype to let every user now give a try and send feed 
back on this first part!

--Mohammad

On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 7:40:09 PM UTC+4:30, Edgaras wrote:
>
> Hello *Miha*, thanks for joining the discussion here!
>
> *Miha* and *Tony*, let me reply to you a bit later ;) 
>
> For now I wanted to share with you a quick prototype in vanilla JS I put 
> up today with my quote weak coding skills... But it shows the basic idea of 
> *block/module 
> based editor *(inspired from Notion ;) )
>
> Instead of having all text in one textarea I divided every element 
> (headline, paragraph into seperate textareas that can have a seperate ID). 
> Every block can be later adjusted and every block can have it's own 
> settings:
>
> Video:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/189iDckDDFFl274xU44MxnbRhI9Cq8gp1/view?usp=sharing
>
> Source code:
> https://codepen.io/edgarascom/pen/XWmaLwo
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[TonyM]

Unfortunately I cant view the video (yet)

Tony

On Friday, 1 May 2020 01:10:09 UTC+10, Edgaras wrote:
>
> Hello *Miha*, thanks for joining the discussion here!
>
> *Miha* and *Tony*, let me reply to you a bit later ;) 
>
> For now I wanted to share with you a quick prototype in vanilla JS I put 
> up today with my quote weak coding skills... But it shows the basic idea of 
> *block/module 
> based editor *(inspired from Notion ;) )
>
> Instead of having all text in one textarea I divided every element 
> (headline, paragraph into seperate textareas that can have a seperate ID). 
> Every block can be later adjusted and every block can have it's own 
> settings:
>
> Video:
>
> https://drive.google.com/file/d/189iDckDDFFl274xU44MxnbRhI9Cq8gp1/view?usp=sharing
>
> Source code:
> https://codepen.io/edgarascom/pen/XWmaLwo
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

Hello *Miha*, thanks for joining the discussion here!

*Miha* and *Tony*, let me reply to you a bit later ;) 

For now I wanted to share with you a quick prototype in vanilla JS I put up 
today with my quote weak coding skills... But it shows the basic idea of 
*block/module 
based editor *(inspired from Notion ;) )

Instead of having all text in one textarea I divided every element 
(headline, paragraph into seperate textareas that can have a seperate ID). 
Every block can be later adjusted and every block can have it's own 
settings:

Video:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/189iDckDDFFl274xU44MxnbRhI9Cq8gp1/view?usp=sharing

Source code:
https://codepen.io/edgarascom/pen/XWmaLwo

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Miha Lunar]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for those details!

It helps to see how some of my points relate to the inner workings already. 
Note that I was mostly talking in the general sense for the concepts above, so 
many of the things I mentioned could already exist in some form.

I see your point on tiddlers usually being _the_ content and not the ones 
containing it via view templates and tag lists. I have this to some degree as 
well. However for new users, I think there's a big gap between "oh I can enter 
text and make it bold and save it, that's cool" and "I am the master of tag 
based filtered list macros" :D

What the above does point towards is that it would be better if the solution 
was extensible in some way, to support all the custom use cases that arise. Now 
all this could be at first is just a generic view template that you can install 
and that adds this functionality to all tiddlers by default. 

I don't know how useful it would be for experienced users, but for new users I 
think it would help ease them into the syntax and help with writing text-based 
tiddlers.

I want to emphasize here that this would just be a potentially easier way to 
edit simple notes, it should of course integrate with all the existing TW 
functionality - meaning editing text would keep being reactive. The "blocks" I 
was referring to was a shorthand for parts of a note - this might have a big 
(full?) overlap with Widgets, so if it does, just replace block with Widget in 
my previous email ;) 

Best,
Miha

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[TonyM]

Miha

What comes to mind reading your reply, as a long time user of tiddlywiki, I 
do not experience the issues of mixed wikitext and code, in some ways I 
already have a "blocks" based solution. 
I have no problem transfering text from one wiki to another or a seperate 
system. This is all with vanila tiddlywiki, and it is only a matter of my 
"practices", nothing else.

To achieve what you and others are suggesting can rest on this prior work 
already built in to achieve the results faster.

I will state them succinctly and you can ask for more info as needed.

   - I tend to keep Real text in standard tiddlers with all code in 
   $:/systemTiddlers, macros or view templates use these.
   - I tend to use a view template to display, often conditionally, the 
   content of any standard tiddler, this view template will invoke macros 
   etc... as needed to display the fields and other value. ie they are not 
   placed in the wiki text except in limited circumstances.
   - Many of my tiddler have no text field, this is simply retained for 
   additional notes, all the results come from how the tiddler is tagged or 
   fields it contains, tags are used to get information from elsewhere in the 
   wiki.
   - Tiddlers are my blocks, and the view template assembles them
   - Given this method I can introduce drag and drop reordering if an when 
   desired.
   - I will use the occasional class or macros in my wikitext but they are 
   usually meaningful to the reader and do not distract from the notes.
   - If transferring content from a TiddlyWiki to another location I do not 
   copy the wikitex,t they can't process, I use the following methods
  - Copy and paste the rendered output
  - Print to a text file
  - Print to a PDF
  - Copy the resulting html
  - sometimes paste the copied html as plain text
  - Generate csv formatted text I copy and paste
   

In the editor there is a preview mechanism, additional preview formats can 
be used out of the box or even developed. I use the HTML one to extract 
HTML snipits for use elsewhere, For example we could have a parser that 
provided a "preview" that instead of presenting html, presented raw 
markdown. If you can see something in preview its trival to provide copy to 
clipboard, export or even drag and drop to move content in another format.

I am not sure but when you refer to *Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) * I think 
it may already exist. Its the Widget Tree, Install the plugin "Tools for 
exploring the internals of TiddlyWiki", and edit a complex tiddler, select 
the preview and the Widget Tree Option.

An important point with tiddlywiki is it has a sophisticated set of 
mechanisms that allow changes to be reflected through out your wiki almost 
instantainiously, this is also very efficient because it knows how to 
refresh only what it must refresh, in part by acting only on what is 
visible.

A lot can be built on top of tiddlywiki without the deeper knowledge, 
however if looking to revolutionary changes you will often discover the 
underlying mechanisms already exist. The only cost being understanding and 
making use of these powerful methods. For example the introduction of 
javascript needs to follow the rule that maintain this instantaniouse 
update model.


Regards
Tony


  

On Thursday, 30 April 2020 11:10:32 UTC+10, Miha Lunar wrote:
>
> Hi Edgaras and others! This is a great initiative! 
>
> I really like these ideas and the minimalistic mockups look really nice. 
> Before finding TW I was using Notion for a while and I think it has a 
> really neat UX that's complex under the hood, but presented nicely. 
>
> Re: mixing wikitext and Markdown: They are fundamentally incompatible in 
> some areas, e.g. # in MD means header, while in WT it's an ordered list 
> item. Initially I also wanted to just use Markdown, but nowadays I feel 
> like wikitext might actually be "the better Markdown". That's bad because 
> then it's harder to champion for the more mainstream Markdown :) 
>
> Re: modeless editing: I feel like this is a really powerful concept that 
> brought text and layout editing to the masses. At the same time, I believe 
> having an editable readable text "source" for a document is powerful in 
> terms of: 
> • reproducibility - you can copy paste a section of the source to someone 
> and they will get the same thing barring side effects 
> • consistency - all the state is visible, so it's harder to get into a 
> weird state where some hidden format or layout is affecting your writing 
> unintentionally 
> • flexibility - since code is usually text too, you can essentially have a 
> way more flexible system if you can also write "code" within text (wikitext 
> has this with transclusions, etc., LaTeX too) 
>
> That said, as you mentioned, looking at / parsing all this additional code 
> all the time can be taxing, as as much as we want them to be, human brains 
> aren't really great computer grammar parsers :) 
>
> This 

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Miha Lunar]

Hi Edgaras and others! This is a great initiative!

I really like these ideas and the minimalistic mockups look really nice. Before 
finding TW I was using Notion for a while and I think it has a really neat UX 
that's complex under the hood, but presented nicely. 

Re: mixing wikitext and Markdown: They are fundamentally incompatible in some 
areas, e.g. # in MD means header, while in WT it's an ordered list item. 
Initially I also wanted to just use Markdown, but nowadays I feel like wikitext 
might actually be "the better Markdown". That's bad because then it's harder to 
champion for the more mainstream Markdown :)

Re: modeless editing: I feel like this is a really powerful concept that 
brought text and layout editing to the masses. At the same time, I believe 
having an editable readable text "source" for a document is powerful in terms 
of:
• reproducibility - you can copy paste a section of the source to someone and 
they will get the same thing barring side effects
• consistency - all the state is visible, so it's harder to get into a weird 
state where some hidden format or layout is affecting your writing 
unintentionally
• flexibility - since code is usually text too, you can essentially have a way 
more flexible system if you can also write "code" within text (wikitext has 
this with transclusions, etc., LaTeX too)

That said, as you mentioned, looking at / parsing all this additional code all 
the time can be taxing, as as much as we want them to be, human brains aren't 
really great computer grammar parsers :)

This brings me to what you and others mentioned and what I believe Notion got 
really right. The concept of logical blocks a page / note consists of. This can 
be a paragraph, a link, an image, a table, etc. In Notion it's natural to add 
these, you type a / and up pops a small non-intrusive command search popup, 
where you just search for a thing to add.

These quick-add slash commands would be essential when it comes to the unified 
view / edit flow imo. On top of that add drag and drop reordering logic and 
you're 80% there.

So how do you reconcile having source editing and Notion-like blocks? I would 
start by keeping the source and having a special type of a UI view that is 
smart enough to modify the source directly through UI actions like typing in 
the middle of some text, adding a new block (read: header, image, tiddler link, 
transclusion, anything that's a toolbar button right now) with a slash command, 
or reordering some blocks in the tiddler (e.g. dragging a header a few 
paragraphs higher would move it in source text a few lines up).

Now for a little nerd talk. Jeremy, I hope you're listening ☺ 

Technically, this would have to be done carefully as to not corrupt or change 
the source in any unexpected way. The complexity depends a little on how 
wikitext is parsed currently. If it's the standard lexer-parser setup where you 
get an Abstract Syntax Tree (AST) somewhere in the middle before you convert it 
into HTML it would already help a lot.

One interesting feature that many parsers usually don't care about is that we 
would need is for the AST to be losslessly reversible back into wikitext 
(including whitespace, comments, everything). That way we would be able to 
operate on the source in a safe and structured manner without losing any extra 
stuff in it.

To be able to visually link the blocks back to their source text, we would need 
to track all the up-to-date character ranges for the parsed tokens / AST leaves 
and carry their ids up to the UI / HTML elements used to display them. Then 
when you e.g. have a list of images and you drag an image, the UI knows of the 
hierarchy behind the display (from the AST) and at the same time knows how to 
modify the source text (by the character ranges in each AST element) to produce 
the desired modified output.

Nerd mode off.

Clearly you won't have a UI that allows you to edit every single wikitext 
feature including transclusions, macros, etc. on day one. But I see great value 
in having even just bold, italic, headers and links as an MVP and blackboxing 
everything that is not supported.  Since the source wikitext would remain, you 
could always switch to the source view for more advanced stuff.

Now if we entertain this modeless direct editing experience some more, I can 
imagine all the blackboxed blocks turning into inline source code editors. 
Transclusions could provide a way for editing the source tiddler directly by 
showing a nested UI in the context of the transcluded tiddler with some border 
or whatever showing up to tell you which one it is.

I'm not saying it would be easy, but it's definitely achievable, especially if 
you limit the scope of what to do initially. :) 

Welp, I spent too much time writing this brain dump, so I hope it gave some 
ideas to someone at least. :) 

Best, 
Miha

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[TonyM]

Edgaras,

Check out the tool in this thread. 
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!topic/tiddlywiki/wTcmMSy-zHc

I think you may be able to use it.

Regards
Tony

On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 11:59:04 PM UTC+10, Edgaras wrote:
>
> *Tony* yes I think we do and we will get even more aligned in time!
>
> I truly respect all work, considerations, the whole iterative and 
> collaborative process of developing TW as a community! And I respect the 
> strict enough principles, that are open minded, but also preventing 
> everything from scattering, and actually being able to manage this 
> complexity! It's truly amazing and again I might not know all things that's 
> been considered or that exist already.
>
> When I am prototyping I am just trying my best to listen for all of you 
> and combine with the way I see software design and visualise the ideas, so 
> they can be reflected upon and iterated again. This is the process of 
> exploration and creativity for the benefit of possible improvements. By no 
> means I am trying to invent something new, in fact I believe innovation is 
> about structuring the smallest existing pieces into something that improves 
> something. Therefore, I hope essentially the most things of this new 
> theme/plugin will be reused from what exist. I also hope when the prototype 
> and the design system develops enough, we will have some collaboratively 
> well thought through design decisions made, I hope there will be some 
> developers and TW experts who will want to make this real and coded. I 
> would also eventually attempt to do it on my own, but I just expect it 
> would take me 20x times longer and harder to do so... But I am a bit of 
> coder myself and I can definitely understand how things work and tweak 
> things.
>
> As a designer I am primarily an advocate for the user/human experience and 
> enabling people to achieve outcomes they strive for with minimum effort. 
> Judging from the global adoption of TW (knowing the potential), from the 
> comments of many of us, my personal experiences as a new user and 
> professional expertise in software design – I let myself to make an 
> educated guess – some people groups and their needs are still underserved. 
>
> The design theory also tells – people have Liquid Expectations 
>  that 
> influence their experience and adoption of any tool/service. Liquid 
> Expectations means our ever changing perceptions of things, and our 
> tendency to draw parallels between things. In terms of the interfaces, that 
> means, if people perceive Google as an easy to use search engine, Netflix 
> as a new way to get a movie in a second on demand or Uber/Lyft is the way 
> to order a taxi conveniently – they will expect that in every next service 
> of a similar category. 
>
> Same with information management systems/tools. If people are used to 
> certain way of working, they will expect that also from TiddlyWiki, even if 
> it might be much more powerful and superior to many systems out there. 
> Besides that, there are some general human-computer interface principles 
> that comes from studies in human cognition. Certain mental and physical 
> abilities and tendencies like a cognitive load, mental models, haptics, 
> aesthetics, visual perception (Gestalt Laws), eye physical vision etc. 
> influences the way we use technology. Also it depends on a context...
>
> Just a small example, yesterday I bought Quine 2 app to use TW on my 
> iPhone. I was in bed taking notes. And it was so difficult to use TW on my 
> phone. The text sizes were small in most place it hurt my eyes, it was hard 
> to tap on many elements, everything was constantly scrolling I kept loosing 
> track where I am... Yet, being kind of geeky and loving TW I kept going. I 
> think not everyone can ignore the experience and depend directly on the 
> power of the tool. 
>
> Again, with my input want to advocate for the human experience of using 
> the tool that can support every person in this digital knowledge work and 
> life age.
>
> I hope we can all work this out, continuing being open minded, keep 
> developing the legendary TW and make it even more approachable for broader 
> audiences outside tech world!;) I hope one day soon even my dad will use TW 
> to manage his work and life digitally ;D 
>
> Cheers,
> Edgaras
>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[TonyM]

Edgaras,

Lovely to have you in the community with these ideas and approach.

We have a number of times raised the issue of "cognitive load" in wikitext, 
widgets and macros as we try and improve it and yes this is critical for 
new users.

I look forward to your help with Human centred approach to support the 
systems thinking and other approaches here.

Unfortunatly you liquid Expectations link says "Error establishing a 
database connection" but you describe it well.

Regards
Tony

On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 11:59:04 PM UTC+10, Edgaras wrote:
>
> *Tony* yes I think we do and we will get even more aligned in time!
>
> I truly respect all work, considerations, the whole iterative and 
> collaborative process of developing TW as a community! And I respect the 
> strict enough principles, that are open minded, but also preventing 
> everything from scattering, and actually being able to manage this 
> complexity! It's truly amazing and again I might not know all things that's 
> been considered or that exist already.
>
> When I am prototyping I am just trying my best to listen for all of you 
> and combine with the way I see software design and visualise the ideas, so 
> they can be reflected upon and iterated again. This is the process of 
> exploration and creativity for the benefit of possible improvements. By no 
> means I am trying to invent something new, in fact I believe innovation is 
> about structuring the smallest existing pieces into something that improves 
> something. Therefore, I hope essentially the most things of this new 
> theme/plugin will be reused from what exist. I also hope when the prototype 
> and the design system develops enough, we will have some collaboratively 
> well thought through design decisions made, I hope there will be some 
> developers and TW experts who will want to make this real and coded. I 
> would also eventually attempt to do it on my own, but I just expect it 
> would take me 20x times longer and harder to do so... But I am a bit of 
> coder myself and I can definitely understand how things work and tweak 
> things.
>
> As a designer I am primarily an advocate for the user/human experience and 
> enabling people to achieve outcomes they strive for with minimum effort. 
> Judging from the global adoption of TW (knowing the potential), from the 
> comments of many of us, my personal experiences as a new user and 
> professional expertise in software design – I let myself to make an 
> educated guess – some people groups and their needs are still underserved. 
>
> The design theory also tells – people have Liquid Expectations 
>  that 
> influence their experience and adoption of any tool/service. Liquid 
> Expectations means our ever changing perceptions of things, and our 
> tendency to draw parallels between things. In terms of the interfaces, that 
> means, if people perceive Google as an easy to use search engine, Netflix 
> as a new way to get a movie in a second on demand or Uber/Lyft is the way 
> to order a taxi conveniently – they will expect that in every next service 
> of a similar category. 
>
> Same with information management systems/tools. If people are used to 
> certain way of working, they will expect that also from TiddlyWiki, even if 
> it might be much more powerful and superior to many systems out there. 
> Besides that, there are some general human-computer interface principles 
> that comes from studies in human cognition. Certain mental and physical 
> abilities and tendencies like a cognitive load, mental models, haptics, 
> aesthetics, visual perception (Gestalt Laws), eye physical vision etc. 
> influences the way we use technology. Also it depends on a context...
>
> Just a small example, yesterday I bought Quine 2 app to use TW on my 
> iPhone. I was in bed taking notes. And it was so difficult to use TW on my 
> phone. The text sizes were small in most place it hurt my eyes, it was hard 
> to tap on many elements, everything was constantly scrolling I kept loosing 
> track where I am... Yet, being kind of geeky and loving TW I kept going. I 
> think not everyone can ignore the experience and depend directly on the 
> power of the tool. 
>
> Again, with my input want to advocate for the human experience of using 
> the tool that can support every person in this digital knowledge work and 
> life age.
>
> I hope we can all work this out, continuing being open minded, keep 
> developing the legendary TW and make it even more approachable for broader 
> audiences outside tech world!;) I hope one day soon even my dad will use TW 
> to manage his work and life digitally ;D 
>
> Cheers,
> Edgaras
>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

*Tony* yes I think we do and we will get even more aligned in time!

I truly respect all work, considerations, the whole iterative and 
collaborative process of developing TW as a community! And I respect the 
strict enough principles, that are open minded, but also preventing 
everything from scattering, and actually being able to manage this 
complexity! It's truly amazing and again I might not know all things that's 
been considered or that exist already.

When I am prototyping I am just trying my best to listen for all of you and 
combine with the way I see software design and visualise the ideas, so they 
can be reflected upon and iterated again. This is the process of 
exploration and creativity for the benefit of possible improvements. By no 
means I am trying to invent something new, in fact I believe innovation is 
about structuring the smallest existing pieces into something that improves 
something. Therefore, I hope essentially the most things of this new 
theme/plugin will be reused from what exist. I also hope when the prototype 
and the design system develops enough, we will have some collaboratively 
well thought through design decisions made, I hope there will be some 
developers and TW experts who will want to make this real and coded. I 
would also eventually attempt to do it on my own, but I just expect it 
would take me 20x times longer and harder to do so... But I am a bit of 
coder myself and I can definitely understand how things work and tweak 
things.

As a designer I am primarily an advocate for the user/human experience and 
enabling people to achieve outcomes they strive for with minimum effort. 
Judging from the global adoption of TW (knowing the potential), from the 
comments of many of us, my personal experiences as a new user and 
professional expertise in software design – I let myself to make an 
educated guess – some people groups and their needs are still underserved. 

The design theory also tells – people have Liquid Expectations 
 that 
influence their experience and adoption of any tool/service. Liquid 
Expectations means our ever changing perceptions of things, and our 
tendency to draw parallels between things. In terms of the interfaces, that 
means, if people perceive Google as an easy to use search engine, Netflix 
as a new way to get a movie in a second on demand or Uber/Lyft is the way 
to order a taxi conveniently – they will expect that in every next service 
of a similar category. 

Same with information management systems/tools. If people are used to 
certain way of working, they will expect that also from TiddlyWiki, even if 
it might be much more powerful and superior to many systems out there. 
Besides that, there are some general human-computer interface principles 
that comes from studies in human cognition. Certain mental and physical 
abilities and tendencies like a cognitive load, mental models, haptics, 
aesthetics, visual perception (Gestalt Laws), eye physical vision etc. 
influences the way we use technology. Also it depends on a context...

Just a small example, yesterday I bought Quine 2 app to use TW on my 
iPhone. I was in bed taking notes. And it was so difficult to use TW on my 
phone. The text sizes were small in most place it hurt my eyes, it was hard 
to tap on many elements, everything was constantly scrolling I kept loosing 
track where I am... Yet, being kind of geeky and loving TW I kept going. I 
think not everyone can ignore the experience and depend directly on the 
power of the tool. 

Again, with my input want to advocate for the human experience of using the 
tool that can support every person in this digital knowledge work and life 
age.

I hope we can all work this out, continuing being open minded, keep 
developing the legendary TW and make it even more approachable for broader 
audiences outside tech world!;) I hope one day soon even my dad will use TW 
to manage his work and life digitally ;D 

Cheers,
Edgaras


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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[TonyM]

Edgaras

I am so glad you are inspired. Your contribution will be appreciated. I think 
We are in furious agreement and share your visions.

Many of your ideas have had some consideration over recent years here and its 
good to see that you have insight into these issues even although you are new 
to tiddlywiki. The truth is tiddlywiki as at the leading edge of personal 
software in my view, if not yet as accessible to the general public as we wish. 
Tiddlywiki also has a history of absorbing and reinventing meaningful advances.

 Many of us are skilled in diverse areas and expect very different things. 
>From academics and authors to hackers and to Do list users. 

Jeremy is the creator and has maintained some strict principals that have got 
us so far with each advance expanding possibilities exponentially. There are 
conceptual leaps needed for many to come to terms with tiddlywiki, but someone 
with your broad insight will find much can be plugged in to the platform. In 
some ways it is self documented, an important principal, but this sometimes, 
results less general (although not dummed down) documentation.

the best way is to learn its mechanisiums and build a plugin or edition that 
demonstrates new solutions. If there is a gap that can be addressed in the core 
tell us about it, but more often than not someone will have a method or a 
workaround.

It has being a long standing tradition to encourage people to search for 
solutions already there, but we ask do not hesitate to ask questions. I am 
often delighted at the number of different and elegant solutions that come 
forward. 

This is my experienced viewpoint but others may have quite different view 
points.

I will restate, being able to generate sites is only one opportunity, although 
it has inspired many new members recently.

I believe its key advantage is how any change can be immediately reflected 
throughout the whole wiki extremely efficently. This is more powerful than most 
people recognise.

Also despite the server options, the single file wiki is also an importiant 
principal and again results in massive advantages. Although it is a rule that 
can be broken, in a particular instance it will always remain a key principal.

Count on my support, I hope my words help yourself and others gain insight to 
the current culture here including our openness to new ideas and cultural 
evolution.

Regards
Tony

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Edgaras]

Thank you for in the depth feedback peeps! This really helps to consider 
more aspects and improve the design.

––

> For default it is not a good idea because the user needs to understand the 
> concept of tiddlers and the framing helps with this conceptualization.

*Mat* is see what you mean now! I agree with you and maybe even in this 
theme, tiddlers should stay modular, and have the story view, it has many 
advantages! There are few things that bothers me in the story view and I 
want to address those. For example, I loose track of navigation when I jump 
from one to another tiddler. Maybe I need arrows <   > so I can quickly 
navigate from where I've been before and combine with breadcrumbs. I 
already have that in the prototype. Few other features that could help, 
there could be ☑️ *two icons that switches the view*: one is showing the 
whole opened tiddlers storyview river, another one – focused on the latest 
open tiddle. In that way you can focus on writing in one, but still switch 
to another view to read other tiddles.

But... which mode is it we see in the demo/recording? Edit or View mode? 
> How do I switch between these modes? 

That's what I am trying to challenge a bit. Viewing and editing could be 
the same mode. When we tab or click we instantly switch between different 
fields to edit in a tiddle. The save happens right when you switch.

It is very elegant but in what way is it simpler?

You are right about tags, it's almost exactly how it is now, just cleaned 
up a bit. And yes I think ☑️ *the dropdown is also needed.*

(This is not seen in the demo, right?)

In the demo I only show that the mentions field is always visible on 
tiddler and says e.g. "21 Mentions". When you click this label you will ☑️ *get 
a searchable dropdown.* I did not yet show that in prototype.

(Not seen in demo, right?)

Yes, you can actually see breadcrubs and <   > arrows to navigate the 
history of viewing in the prototype. it's the top line.

I'm not sure about putting tab All there instead of More. How do you access 
> the other subtabs of More?

This is very good point I have to ☑️ *reconsider the More tab.* Would you 
say you want all subtabs from More tab or only some of them?

Like normal/current TW, right?

Yes, but at this prototype I am considering open another note in place for 
simplicity, instead of opening not in the story-view and scroll down to it. 
But as I wrote above, after your comment I will consider a switch mode 
icon, so you can switch between last opened tiddler and the scroll river 
view.




Mohammad

> Wonderful! I may prefer wikitext instead of markdown :-)

Yes, wikitext is much more powerful, I just wish it was extending (on 
including) the markdown. It's because many people use markdown, so it's 
easy to copy paste from/to other software.
So, ideally I would like to write in wikitext, but be able to write also 
markdown at the same time. For example I prefer "# Headline" than "! 
Headline" but it could work with both?

Thank you for your comments!

–––-

Thomas this is awesome! I like a lot of ideas in your concept, the 
simplicity for reading and different ways to save note based on the context!
I have to note this down and take a closer look at all you features from 
the plugin!

You gave me a lot of thought about the title (I did not actually know that 
it was unique ID). I think it's a great feature of TW, every concept/note 
should be unique, otherwise you refer to another note.
I think in my explored concept I like to have clear titles as 
identification, but of course if you want to write one tiddler and put 
other tiddles as components (is that possible in TW?) the titles should be 
smaller visually.
But it's okay that the embeded tiddles would have H1 or H2, as much as I 
know in HTML5 you can semantically use H1 again, if it's in a sub context.

Hit the return key and get a new block, by default a paragraph, but that 
> can be changed by hitting a shortcut or pressing a button to change the 
> block type. 

This is exactly what I would like to see in TW when editing a tiddler! In 
many modern note apps you can do that. For example in Notion, also ☑️ *every 
paragraph is a block, and the block type can be always changed (paragraph, 
headline, code, embed, quote, list etc.)*. I have to prototype that. It 
would be also cool to have a simple and distinct way to refer a block from 
one tiddler to another (is that possible now???)

I love your search plugin feature! It's amazing, I think that's how it 
should work also! It's intuitive, similar how Apple "Spotlight Search" 
work. ☑️ *I would love to borrow you plugin:)*

I also like you fixed sidebar width. It feels nice and save space.

Thanks for the open minded ideas! I will definitely look more into them!

––-

*Tony* Thank you for your time to feedback, kind comments and challenging 
thoughts! This is helpful.

I think I am relizing more and more that definitely I am not 

Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

[Anne-Laure Le Cunff]

Hi Edgaras,

This demo is amazing! A couple of thoughts:

   - Love the clean design, I find it both relaxing and inviting and could 
   see myself write more with TW with such an interface.
   - Yay for proper markdown integration out of the box! Not a question for 
   you, but more with the developer you will partner with on this, but would 
   it be possible to get both markdown as found in this plugin 
    and autocomplete for internal 
   links as found in TiddlyBlink? They currently don't work together.
   - Maybe move the mentions at the bottom of the writing or somewhere 
   else? I think the dropdown menu at the top may make them feel like a second 
   thought. I think at the bottom of the writing area with area with a little 
   expand/collapse icon may be an interesting option to explore (similar to 
   what Roam did).
   - Even though I agree (as discussed previously) we should not make the 
   settings/tools as central as it currently is in the default TW theme, I 
   don't think there is any link to it at all right now? People will still 
   need access to their settings.

Overall this looks amazing and I'm super excited to follow your progress! 
Thanks so much for your work on this.

On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 8:32:26 AM UTC+1, Peter Buyze wrote:
>
> Regarding the navigation, I installed Ton Gerner's tiddlerbar plug-in 
> because of the same problem you describe. I find the tiddlerbar solved it. 
> When you have many tids open the bar just overflows into an extra line of 
> tabs. 
>
>
>
> 29 Apr 2020, 10:29 by edgar...@gmail.com :
>
> Thank you for in the depth feedback peeps! This really helps to consider 
> more aspects and improve the design.
>
> ––
>
> For default it is not a good idea because the user needs to understand the 
> concept of tiddlers and the framing helps with this conceptualization.
>
> *Mat* is see what you mean now! I agree with you and maybe even in this 
> theme, tiddlers should stay modular, and have the story view, it has many 
> advantages! There are few things that bothers me in the story view and I 
> want to address those. For example, I loose track of navigation when I jump 
> from one to another tiddler. Maybe I need arrows <   > so I can quickly 
> navigate from where I've been before and combine with breadcrumbs. I 
> already have that in the prototype and I can try to prototype 
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com .
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f3812ef8-f439-4ec1-93a6-4f90612c95b6%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

['Peter Buyze' via TiddlyWiki]

Regarding the navigation, I installed Ton Gerner's tiddlerbar plug-in because 
of the same problem you describe. I find the tiddlerbar solved it. When you 
have many tids open the bar just overflows into an extra line of tabs. 


29 Apr 2020, 10:29 by edgaras@gmail.com:

> Thank you for in the depth feedback peeps! This really helps to consider more 
> aspects and improve the design.
>
> ––
>
>> For default it is not a good idea because the user needs to understand the 
>> concept of tiddlers and the framing helps with this conceptualization.
>>
> Mat>  is see what you mean now! I agree with you and maybe even in this 
> theme, tiddlers should stay modular, and have the story view, it has many 
> advantages! There are few things that bothers me in the story view and I want 
> to address those. For example, I loose track of navigation when I jump from 
> one to another tiddler. Maybe I need arrows <   > so I can quickly navigate 
> from where I've been before and combine with breadcrumbs. I already have that 
> in the prototype and I can try to prototype 
>
>
>
>
> --
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> "TiddlyWiki" group.
>  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to > tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com> .
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f3812ef8-f439-4ec1-93a6-4f90612c95b6%40googlegroups.com
>  
> >
>  .
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Redesign of TiddlyWiki

['Peter Buyze' via TiddlyWiki]

The introduction walkthrough looks good, professional. It is important to keep 
that sidebar open and not make it closeable/foldable with the double chevron in 
the top right corner.

If it gets close accidentally a new user might not realise how to get it back. 
Moreover, it would useful to point out early on in the introduction that 
previous slides/tiddlers can be viewed again by clicking on them in the sidebar.


25 Apr 2020, 18:18 by alecu...@gmail.com:

> @Jeremy: this was such an interesting read, thank you!
>
> Just want to jot down some thoughts:
> It's the fist time I see the > introduction walkthrough 
> > , this is going to become my 
> go-to when telling people about TiddlyWiki!
> Tangential - I was about to share the link on Twitter, but checked here first 
> and it looks like there's no link preview. It would be good in a future 
> version to have default link preview parameters so links always look good on 
> social media. Even better if the user can tweak them easily.
> If there are so many limitations in working with the full version of 
> TiddlyWiki, I wonder if Edgaras couldn't design a version that's > 
> purposefully restrictive> . For instance, we're not able to edit on click 
> because we're not sure what complex transclusion may be computed in the 
> background—maybe that super simple Starter Edition of TiddlyWiki would not 
> support such complex transclusions and focus on pure note-taking? May not be 
> possible at all but just throwing it out there.
> Also, side note that I personally never use Storyview, and what Dave Gifford 
> is creating to look at two tiddlers side-by-side feels much more natural to 
> me, but again may be too much of a departure from the way TiddlyWiki works.
> @Edgaras: I don't think the WYSIWYG part is that important to be honest. The 
> kind of users that will be early adopters of this Starter Edition will 
> probably understand markdown fairly quickly, especially if the onboarding is 
> done correctly. (tens of thousands of non-technical people did with Roam)
>
> I think what would be interesting from a design standpoint is figure out 
> everything that should be removed for a Starter Edition, so people can get 
> the best first impression, and then build upon this as they grow along their 
> TiddlyWiki. Very excited to follow the progress on this!
>
> On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 4:06:09 PM UTC+1, PMario wrote:
>
>> Hi Edgaras,
>>
>> Welcome to the club!
>>
>> It's nice to see a designer's point of view! I think your designs should be 
>> like brainstorming about UI and UX improvements. It's cool to explore new 
>> possibilities without thinking about the consequences ;)
>>
>> We developers and power-users should >> not>>  think about, how of if we can 
>> implement "those visions". We shouldn't think about "design" backwards 
>> compatibility. The internals need to be compatible. They are ultra flexible 
>> already ... We will survive it!
>>
>> I think it's about the "First Impression" for new users. Newbies want to 
>> type formatted text. ... Have a TOC ... Create simple ToDo's / shopping / 
>>  lists. ... They seem to like "backlinking" more visible ;) ...
>>
>> I think, if those elements can be made simple and they have the possibility 
>> to "store", "reload" and make their stuff visible for others, they are 
>> "caught" already. 
>>
>> If the second step like dynamic lists need an "extended editor" and 
>> transclusions, macros, widgets need an "advanced" editor this doesn't matter 
>> anymore. We got them already. 
>>
>> -
>>
>> Themes can look like: 
>>
>>  - Hugo static site theme >> Ghostwriter 
>> >>  or
>>  - Wordpress >> Moments  
>> >> or    more TW 
>> like 
>>
>>  - >> Whitespace >>   which IMO 
>> has a very nice sidebar concept. 
>>
>> IMO we can do everything. ... Installing those 3 themes in ONE wiki and make 
>> them switchable will be a challenge. ... But doable, if it needs to be ... 
>>
>> There is one more thing, I wanted to show, but it doesn't work atm ;) ... 
>> Link will follow.
>>
>> have fun!
>> mario
>>
>>
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