Thank you for in the depth feedback peeps! This really helps to consider more aspects and improve the design.
–––––––––– > For default it is not a good idea because the user needs to understand the > concept of tiddlers and the framing helps with this conceptualization. *Mat* is see what you mean now! I agree with you and maybe even in this theme, tiddlers should stay modular, and have the story view, it has many advantages! There are few things that bothers me in the story view and I want to address those. For example, I loose track of navigation when I jump from one to another tiddler. Maybe I need arrows < > so I can quickly navigate from where I've been before and combine with breadcrumbs. I already have that in the prototype. Few other features that could help, there could be ☑️ *two icons that switches the view*: one is showing the whole opened tiddlers storyview river, another one – focused on the latest open tiddle. In that way you can focus on writing in one, but still switch to another view to read other tiddles. But... which mode is it we see in the demo/recording? Edit or View mode? > How do I switch between these modes? That's what I am trying to challenge a bit. Viewing and editing could be the same mode. When we tab or click we instantly switch between different fields to edit in a tiddle. The save happens right when you switch. It is very elegant but in what way is it simpler? You are right about tags, it's almost exactly how it is now, just cleaned up a bit. And yes I think ☑️ *the dropdown is also needed.* (This is not seen in the demo, right?) In the demo I only show that the mentions field is always visible on tiddler and says e.g. "21 Mentions". When you click this label you will ☑️ *get a searchable dropdown.* I did not yet show that in prototype. (Not seen in demo, right?) Yes, you can actually see breadcrubs and < > arrows to navigate the history of viewing in the prototype. it's the top line. I'm not sure about putting tab All there instead of More. How do you access > the other subtabs of More? This is very good point I have to ☑️ *reconsider the More tab.* Would you say you want all subtabs from More tab or only some of them? Like normal/current TW, right? Yes, but at this prototype I am considering open another note in place for simplicity, instead of opening not in the story-view and scroll down to it. But as I wrote above, after your comment I will consider a switch mode icon, so you can switch between last opened tiddler and the scroll river view. –––––––––––– Mohammad > Wonderful! I may prefer wikitext instead of markdown :-) Yes, wikitext is much more powerful, I just wish it was extending (on including) the markdown. It's because many people use markdown, so it's easy to copy paste from/to other software. So, ideally I would like to write in wikitext, but be able to write also markdown at the same time. For example I prefer "# Headline" than "! Headline" but it could work with both? Thank you for your comments! –––––––––––- Thomas this is awesome! I like a lot of ideas in your concept, the simplicity for reading and different ways to save note based on the context! I have to note this down and take a closer look at all you features from the plugin! You gave me a lot of thought about the title (I did not actually know that it was unique ID). I think it's a great feature of TW, every concept/note should be unique, otherwise you refer to another note. I think in my explored concept I like to have clear titles as identification, but of course if you want to write one tiddler and put other tiddles as components (is that possible in TW?) the titles should be smaller visually. But it's okay that the embeded tiddles would have H1 or H2, as much as I know in HTML5 you can semantically use H1 again, if it's in a sub context. Hit the return key and get a new block, by default a paragraph, but that > can be changed by hitting a shortcut or pressing a button to change the > block type. This is exactly what I would like to see in TW when editing a tiddler! In many modern note apps you can do that. For example in Notion, also ☑️ *every paragraph is a block, and the block type can be always changed (paragraph, headline, code, embed, quote, list etc.)*. I have to prototype that. It would be also cool to have a simple and distinct way to refer a block from one tiddler to another (is that possible now???) I love your search plugin feature! It's amazing, I think that's how it should work also! It's intuitive, similar how Apple "Spotlight Search" work. ☑️ *I would love to borrow you plugin:)* I also like you fixed sidebar width. It feels nice and save space. Thanks for the open minded ideas! I will definitely look more into them! ––––––––––––––- *Tony* Thank you for your time to feedback, kind comments and challenging thoughts! This is helpful. I think I am relizing more and more that definitely I am not redesigning the whole TiddlyWiki, because as you mentioned, it's a multipurpose powerful and flexible machine. It's also more less a framework, a toolkit, a platform (with all the plugins). Seeing this (I am still learning all the potential, super exciting) I really want to contribute to creating a theme for two purposes. First, a minimal, distraction free, powerfully modular, linked/back-linked note taking experience. Something that feels very cool and could compete with other commercial tools on the market. Like Notion, RoamResearch, Coda, SuperNotes, Dropbox Paper etc. etc. I would be great to offer a similar experience to TW users, especially not very technical ones. Second, there is a huge no-code movement, also increasing popularity of Static Site Generators and simple CMS systems. TW could really serve the market here. I would like to use TW as a simple visual CMS system to quickly and easily publish personal websites/blogs. Again I want to address non-technical people here, who just needs a minimal tool, with simple workflow, to achieve the outcome they want - great looking public website that can match the result of any other complex CMS system out there. There are many cool Static Site Builders, but most of them run in the Terminal and does not offer visual CMS (https://getpublii.com does, very nice, but themes and plugins are super limited, and it's only for Mac) So yeah overall with this vision I want to achieve a minimalistic personal management system for eveeryone with a possibility to simply build and publish websites. I agree with you that TW should of course stay as it is – a powerful system to build your own tools, and not designer can ever serve all those personal needs. YET, there are a lot of people who are not techical enough and do not want to spend time learning and building their own tools. There are certain patterns that many people would benefit from, and I want to serve that need, including for myself. On top of that everybody can extend their system at any time still. This is to show how you may not yet have imagined TiddlyWiki yet. To be honest, most of these things I can do without spending much time in other commercial modern tools like Notion, Coda etc. I particularly like Notion, because it has *just enough *features, it's modular enough, soon their will introduce API, so you will be able to combine with other tools. In the future, with no-code movement (like Zapier) we will see more and more ways to integrate tools, and it will become simplier to build your own workflows. Another key wiki rins on Windows TiddlyDesktop and it interacts with my > computer, folders, files links and supports automation, network > troubleshooting and more. WHAAAT!? Is that possible? Amazing, this is what's missing in many commercial tools, from Notion for example you cannot access you own computer files, and that's a huge bummer. I would love TW to be my main interface for everything, my personal knowledge management system, file system manager, website publisher.... Seem like it possibly can be. But I believe we really need to make this all non-tech user friendly... If you look at *Anytype <https://www.anytype.io> - *they are in the process of building this revolutionary personal digital system, that is flexible and modular, it's self hosted and can access your personal file. It has P2P communication system so everything can be privately collaborated on. The main difference is – the interface is much more user friendly than TW, it addresses all key needs of the human in the digital knowledge work age. Not everyone wants/can to hack their way in to this age. There are people who have other jobs to do. Just like not everyone wants to design and build their own house and interior, but they still want to have an affordable, good quality, usable, well functioning, beautiful house. this is not at all to diminish your approach, but perhaps even to broaden > the possibilities further. But I see why you mentioning all these important aspects! I think those are all important to talk through and I can see fundamentally we are on the same page! You are mentioning very important aspect that I respect very much – always keep it backward compatible. Therefore, I am glad for all these comments, together bit by bit we will figure out what core features and quality plugins can support this vision. You give me a link or start a thread here or in my personal group It seems that I don't have an access to your group. Do you think it would be better to move conversation there? I would like to keep this as a main thread for now, so ideas do not get dispersed all over. But I will make sure to edit my original post on this tread, so it's always updated with the latest prototype file, videos, maybe google docs for the documentation and next tasks, everybody will be welcome to collaborate (I would love to make this collaboration on TW, but I am not aware of managed collaboration features). I am not suggesting something so extreme, I am suggesting with different > themes and page structure tiddlywiki can and does do the same The thing is a good design on top of tiddlywiki will benefit from the many > advantages within tiddlywiki. This is amazing *Tony*. This would be awesome! I completely agree, while it should be simple to use tool to start with, but through design, it should be also simple to build your own "themes/templates/reusable block". This might quickly become very complex to implement. But untimely it would be awesome to build your own "views" simply drag and dropping and visual editing, like Webflow does. Notion I think achieved this quite well. While you can't do fully custom front-end, many non-tech people are able to customise it enough and serve it as a public website. It has a quite powerful data management system (like databases) and different view formats - table, kanban, gallery, list, calendar, gantt in the future. And all of those can be further customized a bit. I agree, many need what you say here, but I do want to be able to switch > modes I agree with your concerns, and yes I agree fully, that the theme should not prevent extensibility. I think you shoud be able to extend the theme as you can extend the original TW with plugins and themes. Of course some things might be conflicting with the visual style, but then it becomes the concern of that person, or the theme can be further designed to match the popular plugins, extensions. *☑️ IDEALLY I would like to propose a modular/flexible design system on Figma*, *maybe even CSS (fonts, colors, spacings, icons, **atomic building block*s <https://bradfrost.com/blog/post/atomic-web-design/>for anyone who wants to extend the theme in the same style. (we can always improve and upgrade this visual system). Just like Apple has their UI guidelines <https://developer.apple.com/design/human-interface-guidelines/> and Google has the Material Design <https://material.io/design>and many other big organisation or communities have customisable design systems, for everyone who wants to build apps within a platform. Thank you Tony for the super valuable, candid and much needed feedback and important directions to consider! ––––––––––––– Peter Buyze I think it's a very much needed plugin. I could not find the plugin (could you drop a link here?), but I think the breadcrumbs should ONLY show the interactive path to the tiddler in focus. That's different from just showing all opened tabs, because we have that already in the sidebar. As I mentioned, < and > arrows in addition to breadcrumbs would be great for quickly navigating back and forward to what's been opened last. ––––––––––––– *Anne-Laure * > Yay for proper markdown integration out of the box! Yes! This is a problem I replied to *Mohammad* above. If possible when writing in wikitext, I would like to still be able to write markdown. For example in wiki text you write "! Headline" and markdown "# Headline". I am wondering why markdown could not be "plugged in" into wikitext? Would there be conflicts between those two markups? Just like when you write CSS when using SCSS or still write JavaScript when writing TypeScript. Maybe move the mentions at the bottom of the writing or somewhere else? I > think the dropdown menu at the top may make them feel like a second thought. Good idea, I've tried on the bottom actually, but it did not look neat, ☑️ *but I will try again*! I think it can work. I might still be helpful to have "X Mentions" and drop down on the top, if the tiddler you are writing is very long and you don't want to scroll all the way down. Alternatively, I should try maybe ☑️ *a sticky simple toolbar, so you can always have most important tiddle actions at hand, even if you scroll down the long one. *(☑️ are just for me to remember hahha. With TW this would work neatly, adding quickly stuff to your to-do list ;) ) settings Yeah I will include the ☑️ *link to setting in the next iteration* ;) Thank you for the support Anne-Laure! All big and small comments are very useful and much needed! Every bit of information has it's own place in the system ("Hierarchy is the architecture of complexity". ~ Herb Simon) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/f05333f2-21a1-4c5e-945e-74d1ccaa590f%40googlegroups.com.
