RE:[tips] using Outliers in the classroom
Beth Benoit wrote: The section I'm considering using is the claim that Canadian ice hockey players are more likely to be born in the first few months of the calendar year. I'll probably follow the same method as above, breaking students into groups to examine the roster I'll hand out, then giving them Gladwell's explanation. [...] I haven't followed this closely, so this may have been dealt with: I presume it has been ascertained that births are evenly distributed throughout the year. Or, if not, that this has been factored in in Gladwell's argument. Allen Esterson Former lecturer, Science Department Southwark College, London http://www.esterson.org ** Christopher D. Green chri...@yorku.ca 05-Jan-09 6:30 PM Beth Benoit wrote: The section I'm considering using is the claim that Canadian ice hockey players are more likely to be born in the first few months of the calendar year. I'll probably follow the same method as above, breaking students into groups to examine the roster I'll hand out, then giving them Gladwell's explanation. I'd also be interested in thoughts from our Canadian brethren about the concept of early birthdates being helpful to hockey success. Stephen, Chris? Funny, I had just heard this claim over Christmas from a relative of mine. She said that something like half of NHLers are born in the first three or four months of the year. But for all I know, she got this from the Gladwell book (which I haven't read). The general claim makes some sense to me. When kids are young, the size and coordination differences between those born in January and those born in December can be quite noticeable. I'd be a little surprised, however, if this continued on into the elite levels as strongly as is claimed for three reasons: (1) Many professional hockey players are mostly huge compared to the rest of us, and so they were probably never small compared to their classes, even if they were a few months younger then average. (2) It is not the case that once you're the best in your class you always remain that way. For instance, I was just talking to friends whose 14-yr-old daughter has been very good a volleyball until now. She was also taller than most of her classmates, but this year she her growth has slowed while many of her classmates have caught up or passed her, so she is quite suddenly not as dominant as she has been up to now. By the time one reaches elite levels of sport, I would expect that much of the early advantage would be neutralized. (3) At elite levels of a sport, sheer physical talent is an important factor. Most of we ordinary mortals could not compete with them even if we practiced as many hours a day as they do. Canada goes against Sweden for the world junior championship tonight! Go Canucks! Chris - Subject: RE: using Outliers in the classroom From: tay...@sandiego.edu Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:39:52 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I must have nothing else to do today because I decided to print out all the NHL rosters. Here is what I found: 205/682 players are listed with birth dates in JanFebMar. A chi-square analysis suggests this is significant at less than .01 and hence could not have occurred by chance. Of course, the same holds true for a comparison of players who list their home towns in North America (where presumably the elite teams are decided by birth dates, versus those whose home towns are outside North America (the VAST majority from former Soviet Union or Scandinavian countries--don't know what to think about Korea or Brazil, except these kids must have lived elsewhere) and for whom I don't know if the birthdate thing holds true where the figures are: North American born JanFebMar=142 North American born AMJJASOND = 339 outside NA born JanFebMar = 63 outside NA born AMJJASOND = 138 Now this all gets more dramatic if you look at top and bottom 4 teams in the current (midseason just about) standing: Top 4 teams: San Jose, Boston, Detroit, Washington: JFM = 39 players rest = 63 players So 38%, or more than the expected 33.3% Bottom 4 teams: Islanders, Atlanta, Tampa Bay, Ottawa JFM = 29 players rest = 72 players So 32%, or slightly less than the expected 33.3% So, Beth, maybe overall there is something to Gladwell's hypothese--although I do like your caveat to check things out :) Annette Subject: Re: using Outliers in the classroom From: Gerald Peterson peter...@svsu.edu Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:25:44 -0500 Reply-To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding:
Re: [tips] Extinction
Thanks for the reply :-) I guess my point was to try and isolate the relative effectiveness of reinforcement of alternate behavior vs. punishment, at eliminating a target behavior without regard for practicalities (…in theory, ….the essence). That is, with respect to the target behavior only, if punishment would eliminate the behavior more effectively than reinforcement of alternate behaviors. I suppose 'more effectively' would probably have to be qualified: Perhaps to mean in the shortest time, with minimum number of applications to achieve behavior change, and permanence of the results (lack of spontaneous recovery) My other point was, I suppose, if this has been explored in behavior analysis, or if it hasn't really been explored because of ethical treatment of humans and other animals. Bringing it back to the realm of practicality: Perhaps THE MOST effective behavior change can be attained through a combination of reward and punishment but punishment is not pursued in combination with reinforcement of alternate behavior because, as you mentioned, it is difficult to implement properly, it has undesirable consequences, or is it mostly because it offends cultural sensibilities. --Mike --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu wrote: From: Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu Subject: Re: [tips] Extinction To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 4:58 PM Yes -- almost as effective as a bullet in the head. But since the side effects of punishment include conditioned emotional effects and avoidance behaviors, I'm not sure what the point is. Punishment would be the best available intervention only within a limited range of life threatening situations that couldn't be addressed by restructuring the environment. Remember that in practice punishment is almost inevitably paired with negative reinforcement (doing something that escapes or avoids the punisher) so that pure punishment is very hard to implement (to put it bluntly). It's more than just ethics. On Jan 6, 2009, at 6:01 PM, Michael Smith wrote: Yes. But what I was interested in is the stopping of behavior. If we ignore any side effects including physical maiming if appropriate for the punishment and we don't care about the individual, which is more effective. So. more from a theoretical perspective. What would eliminate a behavior most effectively (again we don't care about side effects or the individual concerned) postitive punishment delivered immediately and as severely as possible, or reinforcement of an incompatible behavior (or not rewarding the un-desired behavior). I would imagine it would be positive punishment. So that extinction being more effective must be a qualified statement. Would others agree with this theoretical perspective that positive punishment would be optimal (although ethically untenable)? --Mike --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu wrote: From: Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu Subject: Re: [tips] Extinction To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 7:57 AM But then we must deal with punishment's side effects. It's still not optimal. The best alternative when available is the reinforcement of alternative (and incompatible where possible) behavior. This reallocates reinforcement (which we assume is occurring as a consequence of the behavior we're trying to eliminate) rather than simply removing or competing with it. Makes better ecological sense. On Jan 5, 2009, at 11:53 PM, Michael Smith wrote: With regard to the note on extinction. With 121 posts since the last time I logged on, I must admit I didn't read a lot of them. But somehwere in the feeding frenzy thread about M. Sylvester someone mentioned using extinction rather than punishment because it has been shown to be more effective. Would it be fair to say that extinction is more effective than punishment because we can't ethically use punishment optimally? That is, immediate and as severe as possible? Paul Brandon Emeritus Professor of Psychology Minnesota State University, Mankato paul.bran...@mnsu.edu --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Intro texts/the dest and worse
Why do you think Myers is one of the worst intro texts? --Mike --- On Tue, 1/6/09, msylves...@copper.net msylves...@copper.net wrote: From: msylves...@copper.net msylves...@copper.net Subject: [tips] Intro texts/the dest and worse To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:30 PM IMHO The best: Allen and Santrock/the definitive intro text and cross-cultural imports(.Allen is African-American) Rodney Plotnick The worse: Lahey Myers My favorite Experimental procedure texts are Claude Bernard (Experimental Medicine) and Murray Sidman (Tactics in Scientific research) My favorite text on color perception is the one edited by Ron Blue,Christopher Green,Stephen Black,Mike Pale and Carol De Velvet Michael Sylvester,PhD Daytona Beach,Florida no matter how beautiful the strategies,it helps to take a look at the results. Winston Churchill --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Intro texts/the dest and worse
It's the SSDD. Dr. Sylvester is trying to start a fight with Myers too. There is nothing going on here that we haven't seen over and over and over again - this interminable self-serving list member harassment. Unlike me, Dave Myers has the good sense to ignore him. Nancy Melucci Long Beach City College Long Beach CA Make a Small Loan, Make a Big Difference - Check out Kiva.org to Learn How! In a message dated 1/7/2009 6:06:51 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, smcke...@ubishops.ca writes: Dear Tipsters, I also wonder why MS regards Myers as one of the worst, particularly because he takes pains to be less American-oriented than other texts, i.e., there are many cross-cultural references and ideas in his book. Michael, please tell us why you dislike Myers’s text? Stuart ___ Stuart J. McKelvie, Ph.D., Phone: (819)822-9600, Extension 2402 Department of Psychology, Fax: (819)822-9661 Bishop's University, 2600 College Street, Sherbrooke, Québec J1M 1Z7, Canada. E-mail: smcke...@ubishops.ca Bishop's University Psychology Department Web Page: _http://www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psy_ (blocked::http://www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psy) ___ From: Michael Smith [mailto:ersaram...@yahoo.com] Sent: January 7, 2009 5:02 AM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: Re: [tips] Intro texts/the dest and worse Why do you think Myers is one of the worst intro texts? --Mike --- On Tue, 1/6/09, msylves...@copper.net msylves...@copper.net wrote: From: msylves...@copper.net msylves...@copper.net Subject: [tips] Intro texts/the dest and worse To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 10:30 PM IMHO The best: Allen and Santrock/the definitive intro text and cross-cultural imports(.Allen is African-American) Rodney Plotnick The worse: Lahey Myers My favorite Experimental procedure texts are Claude Bernard (Experimental Medicine) and Murray Sidman (Tactics in Scientific research) My favorite text on color perception is the one edited by Ron Blue,Christopher Green,Stephen Black,Mike Pale and Carol De Velvet Michael Sylvester,PhD Daytona Beach,Florida no matter how beautiful the strategies,it helps to take a look at the results. Winston Churchill --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) **New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom0026) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Extinction
Agreed! Just to reiterate: Most interventions that are described as punishment really involve negative reinforcement as their main function. In common language the term 'punishment' usually implies any use of aversive stimulation, irrespective of the contingency. BTW -- have you read Sidman's 'Coercion and its Fallout'? On Jan 7, 2009, at 3:58 AM, Michael Smith wrote: Thanks for the reply :-) I guess my point was to try and isolate the relative effectiveness of reinforcement of alternate behavior vs. punishment, at eliminating a target behavior without regard for practicalities (… in theory, ….the essence). That is, with respect to the target behavior only, if punishment would eliminate the behavior more effectively than reinforcement of alternate behaviors. I suppose 'more effectively' would probably have to be qualified: Perhaps to mean in the shortest time, with minimum number of applications to achieve behavior change, and permanence of the results (lack of spontaneous recovery) My other point was, I suppose, if this has been explored in behavior analysis, or if it hasn't really been explored because of ethical treatment of humans and other animals. Bringing it back to the realm of practicality: Perhaps THE MOST effective behavior change can be attained through a combination of reward and punishment but punishment is not pursued in combination with reinforcement of alternate behavior because, as you mentioned, it is difficult to implement properly, it has undesirable consequences, or is it mostly because it offends cultural sensibilities. --Mike --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu wrote: From: Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu Subject: Re: [tips] Extinction To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 4:58 PM Yes -- almost as effective as a bullet in the head. But since the side effects of punishment include conditioned emotional effects and avoidance behaviors, I'm not sure what the point is. Punishment would be the best available intervention only within a limited range of life threatening situations that couldn't be addressed by restructuring the environment. Remember that in practice punishment is almost inevitably paired with negative reinforcement (doing something that escapes or avoids the punisher) so that pure punishment is very hard to implement (to put it bluntly). It's more than just ethics. On Jan 6, 2009, at 6:01 PM, Michael Smith wrote: Yes. But what I was interested in is the stopping of behavior. If we ignore any side effects including physical maiming if appropriate for the punishment and we don't care about the individual, which is more effective. So. more from a theoretical perspective. What would eliminate a behavior most effectively (again we don't care about side effects or the individual concerned) postitive punishment delivered immediately and as severely as possible, or reinforcement of an incompatible behavior (or not rewarding the un-desired behavior). I would imagine it would be positive punishment. So that extinction being more effective must be a qualified statement. Would others agree with this theoretical perspective that positive punishment would be optimal (although ethically untenable)? --Mike --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu wrote: From: Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu Subject: Re: [tips] Extinction To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 7:57 AM But then we must deal with punishment's side effects. It's still not optimal. The best alternative when available is the reinforcement of alternative (and incompatible where possible) behavior. This reallocates reinforcement (which we assume is occurring as a consequence of the behavior we're trying to eliminate) rather than simply removing or competing with it. Makes better ecological sense. On Jan 5, 2009, at 11:53 PM, Michael Smith wrote: With regard to the note on extinction. With 121 posts since the last time I logged on, I must admit I didn't read a lot of them. But somehwere in the feeding frenzy thread about M. Sylvester someone mentioned using extinction rather than punishment because it has been shown to be more effective. Would it be fair to say that extinction is more effective than punishment because we can't ethically use punishment optimally? That is, immediate and as severe as possible? Paul Brandon Emeritus Professor of Psychology Minnesota State University, Mankato paul.bran...@mnsu.edu --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) Paul Brandon 10 Crown Hill Lane Mankato, MN 56001
[tips] Merry Christmas, Part Deux
As the cosmopolitan dude on Tips I feel the occasional overwhelming urge to provide bits of cultural and social knowledge that help to inform the teaching of psychology (though it might not be obvious) and understanding the larger sociocultural context in which we operate (NOTE: I understand that there may be drugs available to treat this in the near future). So, today, I hope to foster the recognition that, depending upon your beliefs, Christmas can come *twice* a year with today January 7, either as the primary or secondary Christmas (Apologies to Harold Takooskian and other Armenians who celebrated Christmas on January 6 --- or is it January 19?; this raises the interesting question of Does Christmas come *thrice* a year?). The December 25 vs January 7 distinction exists because: (a) Originally the birth of Jesus was not seen as a cause for celebration, indeed, celebration of birthdays in the first centuries A.D. was associated with the pagans (I believe that Jehovah's Witnesses still hold this view and do not celebrate Christmas). It was only later the Roman Catholic Church, perceiving a holiday gap with other religions decided to associate Jesus' birth with the Winter Solstice which had existing pagan celebrations in many parts of the world. (b) The discrepancy in dating Jesus' birth arises from a change in calendars, from the Julian Calendar (which puts Christmas on January 7) to the Gregorian Calendar (which puts Christmas on December 25). [Trick question #1: What happened during March 12-20, 1528 according to the Gregorian calendar? Trick question #2: In the year 2100, those following the Julian calendar will celebrate Christmas on what day?] (c) The Gregorian Calendar has become the standard civil calendar for most of the world and is the calendar used by the Roman Catholic Church and Protestants for religious observances while churches following the Greek Rite and the Orthodox traditions often follow the Julian Calendars. Depending upon one's family and community affiliations, either one or the other or DING! DING! DING! *BOTH* are celebrated (not to mention some other paydays, er, holidays like St. Nicholas' Day which is another opportunity to give/receive gifts). So, Merry Christmas to all who observe January 7 (or January 6 or January 19 or whenever), whether you're: Russian http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/19391 Ukrainian http://www.infoukes.com/culture/traditions/christmas/ Greek Orthodox http://hyelog.blogspot.com/2006/12/christmas-comes-but-thrice-year.html Other Orthodox Christian Denominations http://www.post-gazette.com/localnews/20040107christmas0107p3.asp Coptic (Egyptian) Christians http://st-takla.org/Feastes--Special-Events/Coptic-Nativity-of-Jesus-Christ-Milad-El-Masih/Coptic-Jesus-Incarnation-Christmas-01-7-January-or-25-December-Coptic-Calendar.html or http://tinyurl.com/8qrjfh Ethiopian Christians http://www.jimmatimes.com/article.cfm?articleID=17560 http://www.ehow.com/how_10775_celebrate-ethiopian-christmas.html For the big picture regarding Christmas celebrations around the world, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_worldwide Remember that historically Christmas has meant different things to different people and it is tempting to think that there is only one way to observe (or not) it. Perhaps we should try think of it as an occasion to experience some joy, goodwill towards others, and endeavor to engender cheerfulness. Even if your only present is a sweater. ;-) -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.edu --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Mississippi has highest teen birth rate, CDC says - Yahoo! News
Here's the site for the CDC with lots of graphs - and presumably fewer gaffes...(heh heh)http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr57/nvsr57_07.pdf On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Christopher D. Green chri...@yorku.cawrote: For those of you who like to follow bad presentations of statistical data in the news, here's a real doosie. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090107/ap_on_he_me/med_teen_births Note that in the graph that it says these numbers are per 1,000 births but then next to the top bar, it says 68.4% (rather than 68.4 per 1000). So, actually only 6.84% of births in Mississippi are to teen mothers. I checked the source -- a CDCP report -- and it does not make the % mistake. The graph seems to have been compiled by AP. What may be worse, the base used (per 1000 live births) will confuse many, who will assume that 68.4% of (presumably female) *teens* are geting pregnant in MS. Best regards, Chris -- Christopher D. Green Department of Psychology York University Toronto, ON M3J 1P3 Canada 416-736-2100 ex. 66164 chri...@yorku.ca http://www.yorku.ca/christo/ == --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) -- We will not learn how to live in peace by killing each other's children. - Jimmy Carter Are our children more precious than theirs? --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Extinction Sidman and coercion
For anyone interested, interesting review of Sidman by Dennis Deprato: Dennis J. Delprato Beyond Murray Sidman's 'Coercion and Its Fallout.'. Psychological Record, The. FindArticles.com. 07 Jan. 2009. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3538/is_n3_v45/ai_n28657020 In Coercion and Its Fallout, Sidman (1989) proposes that coercion is at the root of many harmful and ineffective interpersonal and social practices. After critically examining coercion, he offers an alternative in the form of positive reinforcement based on naturally occurring deprivations. This paper proposes that Sidman's thesis can be extended by the incorporation of Goldiamond's constructional approach and Powers's perceptual control theory. It argues that the latter provides a coherent framework for understanding the effects of coercion and how there might even be negative side effects of the use of positive reinforcement. ? Steven Hall Butte Community College, Oroville, CA mrstev...@aol.com --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Extinction Sidman and coercion
Very apt -- thanks for the reminder. Some context for anyone who actually reads it: Denny Delprato is an Interbehaviorist (a follower of J.R.Kantor -- one of those intrafaith schisms which don't signify much to outsiders). His references to Powers' Perceptual Control Theory are consistent with Interbehaviorism's status as a field theory. I'm not aware that PCT has spun off much in the way of application, and most applications developed by Interbehaviorists are quite consistent with mainstream Behavior Analysis and are published in the same journals (Psych Record was originated by Kantor). In today's social/political climate most interventions are of necessity minimally coercive (Sidman's real point). The question of whether one can control (produce a change in behavior) without controlling is more a philosophical one. On Jan 7, 2009, at 11:14 AM, mrstev...@aol.com wrote: For anyone interested, interesting review of Sidman by Dennis Delprato: Dennis J. Delprato Beyond Murray Sidman's 'Coercion and Its Fallout.'. Psychological Record, The. FindArticles.com. 07 Jan. 2009. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3538/is_n3_v45/ai_n28657020 In Coercion and Its Fallout, Sidman (1989) proposes that coercion is at the root of many harmful and ineffective interpersonal and social practices. After critically examining coercion, he offers an alternative in the form of positive reinforcement based on naturally occurring deprivations. This paper proposes that Sidman's thesis can be extended by the incorporation of Goldiamond's constructional approach and Powers's perceptual control theory. It argues that the latter provides a coherent framework for understanding the effects of coercion and how there might even be negative side effects of the use of positive reinforcement. Steven Hall Butte Community College, Oroville, CA mrstev...@aol.com Paul Brandon Emeritus Professor of Psychology Minnesota State University, Mankato paul.bran...@mnsu.edu --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
RE: [tips] Merry Christmas, Part Deux
On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:35:25 -0800, Carol L. DeVolder wrote: Being the non-cosmopolitan, Midwestern dudette on TIPS, It's a dirty job but someone has to do it. :-) I have some questions for you. Okey, dokey. [Hannibal Lechter style] With respect to Trick Question #2--Isn't the answer not at all, because the world is going to end in 2012? Is this a trick question? In any event, considering how many apocalypses have failed to show up as advertised (the year 2000, anyone?) I will wait to answer your question until after 2012. Or qualify the question to say If the world as we know it isn't destroyed during the 21st century... I forget what my other questions were, but they pale in light of the end of the world anyway. Well, as long as we're in an eschatological frame of mind, I am reminded of two things from Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle: (1) The title of the book that the narrator Jonah is writing is The Day the World Ended. It was going to be a nonfiction book. (2) When Bokononists are about to commit suicide they say: Now I will destroy the whole world. Which is to say the world is always ending and will continue to do so whether we notice it or not. It's a matter of perspective. -Mike Palij New York University m...@nyu.edu --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
[tips] Dave Myers' text
I'm speechless about Michael Sylvester's rating of the Myers text. I may be wrong but I believe it's the intro text most widely prescribed internationally, one reason being that it is much less myopic than its American counterparts. We use it in South Africa and find it wonderful. One of its strongest points is that the language is very student-friendly, which a country in a country like South Africa with 11 official languages, is a very important prerequisite. In a recent email Michael Sylvester wrote something about Dave Myers being a millionaire. I don't know whether that is the case (if it is, good for him), but I wonder how many colleagues have read the following on the inner title page of most (all?) of Dave's books (it's in fine print): All royalties from the sale of this book are assigned to the David and Carol Myers Foundation, which exists to receive and distribute funds to other charitable organizations. If David Myers is indeed a millionaire, we surely need more millionaires like him. Regards from a sunny (southern hemisphere) South Africa. Dap Louw Dap Louw, Ph.D.(Psych.), Ph.D. (Crim.) Head: Centre for Psychology and the Law Professor: Department of Psychology University of the Free State P.O. Box 339 Bloemfontein 9300 South Africa Tel: (051+) 401-2444 (work) (051+) 436-3423 (home) Fax: (051+) 444-6677 Email: louwda@ufs.ac.za Cell: 083-391-8331 _ University of the Free State: This message and its contents are subject to a disclaimer. Please refer to http://www.ufs.ac.za/disclaimer for full details. Universiteit van die Vrystaat: Hierdie boodskap en sy inhoud is aan 'n vrywaringsklousule onderhewig. Volledige besonderhede is by http://www.ufs.ac.za/vrywaring beskikbaar. _ --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Dave Myers' text
Thank you, Dap, for saying what we're probably all thinking. I believe my colleagues may have been attempting the extinction techniques we've been not-so-obliquely discussing online. But I see that Michael has already used up his three posts for the day, so I'm happy to concur that Dave's textbook is a terrific one. (Actually, I am using both his Intro and Social textbooks at present.) I'd forgotten about his generous contribution of his royalty proceeds, and I'm glad you pointed that out, as he's not the kind of guy to toot his own horn. I've met him at meetings, and find him as warm and genuine as he comes across in his books. He also is quick to respond to any suggestions or questions. I also found his book, A Quiet World: Living with Hearing Loss to be so informative, but told with humor about things like his wife's occasional exasperation when he wouldn't wear his hearing aid, and other human interest stories. Beth Benoit Granite State College New Hampshire On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Dap Louw louwda@ufs.ac.za wrote: I'm speechless about Michael Sylvester's rating of the Myers text. I may be wrong but I believe it's the intro text most widely prescribed internationally, one reason being that it is much less myopic than its American counterparts. We use it in South Africa and find it wonderful. One of its strongest points is that the language is very student-friendly, which a country in a country like South Africa with 11 official languages, is a very important prerequisite. In a recent email Michael Sylvester wrote something about Dave Myers being a millionaire. I don't know whether that is the case (if it is, good for him), but I wonder how many colleagues have read the following on the inner title page of most (all?) of Dave's books (it's in fine print): All royalties from the sale of this book are assigned to the David and Carol Myers Foundation, which exists to receive and distribute funds to other charitable organizations. If David Myers is indeed a millionaire, we surely need more millionaires like him. Regards from a sunny (southern hemisphere) South Africa. Dap Louw Dap Louw, Ph.D.(Psych.), Ph.D. (Crim.) Head: Centre for Psychology and the Law Professor: Department of Psychology University of the Free State P.O. Box 339 Bloemfontein 9300 South Africa Tel: (051+) 401-2444 (work) (051+) 436-3423 (home) Fax: (051+) 444-6677 Email: louwda@ufs.ac.za Cell: 083-391-8331 _ University of the Free State: This message and its contents are subject to a disclaimer. Please refer to http://www.ufs.ac.za/disclaimer for full details. Universiteit van die Vrystaat: Hierdie boodskap en sy inhoud is aan 'n vrywaringsklousule onderhewig. Volledige besonderhede is by http://www.ufs.ac.za/vrywaring beskikbaar. _ --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) -- We will not learn how to live in peace by killing each other's children. - Jimmy Carter Are our children more precious than theirs? --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Cross-cultural scientific screw-up, big-time
What are TIPSters views of various post hoc tests after doing a 2 X 2 ANOVA with repeated measures on one of the variables. Tukey's HSD isn't really appropriate as it would adjust for all four comparisons when I am only interested in comparing across the repeated measures variable (that is, a total of two comparisons rather than four). Thanks. -S Steven M. Specht, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Psychology Utica College Utica, NY 13502 (315) 792-3171 The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King Jr. --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Cross-cultural scientific screw-up, big-time
BTW, I meant comparisons between all four groups (which would be more than 4 comparisons in total). On Jan 7, 2009, at 2:54 PM, Steven Specht wrote: What are TIPSters views of various post hoc tests after doing a 2 X 2 ANOVA with repeated measures on one of the variables. Tukey's HSD isn't really appropriate as it would adjust for all four comparisons when I am only interested in comparing across the repeated measures variable (that is, a total of two comparisons rather than four). Thanks. -S Steven M. Specht, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Psychology Utica College Utica, NY 13502 (315) 792-3171 The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King Jr. Steven M. Specht, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Psychology Utica College Utica, NY 13502 (315) 792-3171 The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King Jr. --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Dave Myers' text
The first problem was giving credibility to MS's views. Best regards, Gary Dap Louw louwda@ufs.ac.za 1/7/2009 2:38 pm I'm speechless about Michael Sylvester's rating of the Myers text. I may be wrong but I believe it's the intro text most widely prescribed internationally, one reason being that it is much less myopic than its American counterparts. We use it in South Africa and find it wonderful. One of its strongest points is that the language is very student-friendly, which a country in a country like South Africa with 11 official languages, is a very important prerequisite. In a recent email Michael Sylvester wrote something about Dave Myers being a millionaire. I don't know whether that is the case (if it is, good for him), but I wonder how many colleagues have read the following on the inner title page of most (all?) of Dave's books (it's in fine print): All royalties from the sale of this book are assigned to the David and Carol Myers Foundation, which exists to receive and distribute funds to other charitable organizations. If David Myers is indeed a millionaire, we surely need more millionaires like him. Regards from a sunny (southern hemisphere) South Africa. Dap Louw Dap Louw, Ph.D.(Psych.), Ph.D. (Crim.) Head: Centre for Psychology and the Law Professor: Department of Psychology University of the Free State P.O. Box 339 Bloemfontein 9300 South Africa Tel: (051+) 401-2444 (work) (051+) 436-3423 (home) Fax: (051+) 444-6677 Email: louwda@ufs.ac.za Cell: 083-391-8331 _ University of the Free State: This message and its contents are subject to a disclaimer. Please refer to http://www.ufs.ac.za/disclaimer for full details. Universiteit van die Vrystaat: Hierdie boodskap en sy inhoud is aan 'n vrywaringsklousule onderhewig. Volledige besonderhede is by http://www.ufs.ac.za/vrywaring beskikbaar. _ --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
RE: [tips] Dave Myers' text
Hi all, I just returned from NITOP where David Myers gave a few speeches as he has all over the world. I have known the man for many years. He told me Frank Vatano may be the nicest man in Psychology. That may be so, but there is one other person who is nicer (I think), and that is David himself. He is generous with his time, writings, and encouragement. He is always willing to stop, listen, and talk with others whether he knows you or not! I can't believe anyone would suggest otherwise. His book has changed quite a bit in the past few years, including more cross-cultural material. Jim Jim Matiya Florida Gulf Coast University jmat...@fgcu.edu Contributor, for Karen Huffman's Psychology in Action, Video Guest Lecturettes John Wiley and Sons. High School Psychology and Advanced Psychology Graphic Organizers, Pacing Guides, and Daily Lesson Plans archived at www.Teaching-Point.net Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 14:57:38 -0500From: bethben...@metrocast.netto: t...@acsun.frostburg.edusubject: Re: [tips] Dave Myers' text Thank you, Dap, for saying what we're probably all thinking. I believe my colleagues may have been attempting the extinction techniques we've been not-so-obliquely discussing online. But I see that Michael has already used up his three posts for the day, so I'm happy to concur that Dave's textbook is a terrific one. (Actually, I am using both his Intro and Social textbooks at present.) I'd forgotten about his generous contribution of his royalty proceeds, and I'm glad you pointed that out, as he's not the kind of guy to toot his own horn. I've met him at meetings, and find him as warm and genuine as he comes across in his books. He also is quick to respond to any suggestions or questions. I also found his book, A Quiet World: Living with Hearing Loss to be so informative, but told with humor about things like his wife's occasional exasperation when he wouldn't wear his hearing aid, and other human interest stories. Beth Benoit Granite State College New Hampshire On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Dap Louw louwda@ufs.ac.za wrote: I'm speechless about Michael Sylvester's rating of the Myers text. I may be wrong but I believe it's the intro text most widely prescribed internationally, one reason being that it is much less myopic than its American counterparts.We use it in South Africa and find it wonderful. One of its strongest points is that the language is very student-friendly, which a country in a country like South Africa with 11 official languages, is a very important prerequisite.In a recent email Michael Sylvester wrote something about Dave Myers being a millionaire. I don't know whether that is the case (if it is, good for him), but I wonder how many colleagues have read the following on the inner title page of most (all?) of Dave's books (it's in fine print):All royalties from the sale of this book are assigned to the David and Carol Myers Foundation, which exists to receive and distribute funds to other charitable organizations.If David Myers is indeed a millionaire, we surely need more millionaires like him.Regards from a sunny (southern hemisphere) South Africa.Dap LouwDap Louw, Ph.D.(Psych.), Ph.D. (Crim.)Head: Centre for Psychology and the LawProfessor: Department of PsychologyUniversity of the Free StateP.O. Box 339Bloemfontein9300 South AfricaTel: (051+) 401-2444 (work)(051+) 436-3423 (home)Fax: (051+) 444-6677Email: louwda@ufs.ac.zacell: 083-391-8331_University of the Free State: This message and its contents are subject to a disclaimer.Please refer to http://www.ufs.ac.za/disclaimer for full details.Universiteit van die Vrystaat:Hierdie boodskap en sy inhoud is aan 'n vrywaringsklousule onderhewig.Volledige besonderhede is by http://www.ufs.ac.za/vrywaring beskikbaar._---To make changes to your subscription contact:Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)-- We will not learn how to live in peace by killing each other's children. - Jimmy CarterAre our children more precious than theirs?---To make changes to your subscription contact:Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Extinction
No, unfortunately I haven't read 'Coercion and its Fallout', and by the looks of the rarity of the book and its cost, I might not be able to. I did read the article mentioned in Steven Hall's later post and it sounds like I am missing out :( --Mike --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu wrote: From: Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu Subject: Re: [tips] Extinction To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 7:56 AM Agreed! Just to reiterate: Most interventions that are described as punishment really involve negative reinforcement as their main function. In common language the term 'punishment' usually implies any use of aversive stimulation, irrespective of the contingency. BTW -- have you read Sidman's 'Coercion and its Fallout'? On Jan 7, 2009, at 3:58 AM, Michael Smith wrote: Thanks for the reply :-) I guess my point was to try and isolate the relative effectiveness of reinforcement of alternate behavior vs. punishment, at eliminating a target behavior without regard for practicalities (…in theory, ….the essence). That is, with respect to the target behavior only, if punishment would eliminate the behavior more effectively than reinforcement of alternate behaviors. I suppose 'more effectively' would probably have to be qualified: Perhaps to mean in the shortest time, with minimum number of applications to achieve behavior change, and permanence of the results (lack of spontaneous recovery) My other point was, I suppose, if this has been explored in behavior analysis, or if it hasn't really been explored because of ethical treatment of humans and other animals. Bringing it back to the realm of practicality: Perhaps THE MOST effective behavior change can be attained through a combination of reward and punishment but punishment is not pursued in combination with reinforcement of alternate behavior because, as you mentioned, it is difficult to implement properly, it has undesirable consequences, or is it mostly because it offends cultural sensibilities. --Mike --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu wrote: From: Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu Subject: Re: [tips] Extinction To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 4:58 PM Yes -- almost as effective as a bullet in the head. But since the side effects of punishment include conditioned emotional effects and avoidance behaviors, I'm not sure what the point is. Punishment would be the best available intervention only within a limited range of life threatening situations that couldn't be addressed by restructuring the environment. Remember that in practice punishment is almost inevitably paired with negative reinforcement (doing something that escapes or avoids the punisher) so that pure punishment is very hard to implement (to put it bluntly). It's more than just ethics. On Jan 6, 2009, at 6:01 PM, Michael Smith wrote: Yes. But what I was interested in is the stopping of behavior. If we ignore any side effects including physical maiming if appropriate for the punishment and we don't care about the individual, which is more effective. So. more from a theoretical perspective. What would eliminate a behavior most effectively (again we don't care about side effects or the individual concerned) postitive punishment delivered immediately and as severely as possible, or reinforcement of an incompatible behavior (or not rewarding the un-desired behavior). I would imagine it would be positive punishment. So that extinction being more effective must be a qualified statement. Would others agree with this theoretical perspective that positive punishment would be optimal (although ethically untenable)? --Mike --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu wrote: From: Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu Subject: Re: [tips] Extinction To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 7:57 AM But then we must deal with punishment's side effects. It's still not optimal. The best alternative when available is the reinforcement of alternative (and incompatible where possible) behavior. This reallocates reinforcement (which we assume is occurring as a consequence of the behavior we're trying to eliminate) rather than simply removing or competing with it. Makes better ecological sense. On Jan 5, 2009, at 11:53 PM, Michael Smith wrote: With regard to the note on extinction. With 121 posts since the last time I logged on, I must admit I didn't read a lot of them. But somehwere in the feeding frenzy thread about M. Sylvester someone mentioned using extinction rather than punishment because it has been shown to be more effective. Would it be fair to say that extinction is more effective than punishment because we can't ethically
Re: [tips] Psychology texts: the best and worst
Appreciate your recommendations for experimental texts as will be teaching a course in social research methods and need all the help I can get. Am also a bit awed at the impressive research that is being conducted by many of our TIPS participants. Glad you guys still find the time to provide us with great ideas and feedback. Joan jwarm...@oakton.edu IMHO My favorite Experimental procedure texts are Claude Bernard (Experimental Medicine) and Murray Sidman (Tactics in Scientific research) My favorite text on color perception is the one edited by Ron Blue,Christopher Green,Stephen Black,Mike Pale and Carol De Velvet Michael Sylvester,PhD Daytona Beach,Florida no matter how beautiful the strategies,it helps to take a look at the results. Winston Churchill --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Dave Myers' text
Myers happens to be a very wealthy man but also provides very significant (like huge) contributions to many charities--especially those involving improving the welfare of women and children. I also must say that you guys are not using the extinction notion well at all! Please, note the decent posts by folks and simply ignore the nonsensical ones. Only serves to reinforce. I mean, come on, this is fairly elementary psychology, is it not? Joan jwarm...@oakton.edu I'm speechless about Michael Sylvester's rating of the Myers text. I may be wrong but I believe it's the intro text most widely prescribed internationally, one reason being that it is much less myopic than its American counterparts. We use it in South Africa and find it wonderful. One of its strongest points is that the language is very student-friendly, which a country in a country like South Africa with 11 official languages, is a very important prerequisite. In a recent email Michael Sylvester wrote something about Dave Myers being a millionaire. I don't know whether that is the case (if it is, good for him), but I wonder how many colleagues have read the following on the inner title page of most (all?) of Dave's books (it's in fine print): All royalties from the sale of this book are assigned to the David and Carol Myers Foundation, which exists to receive and distribute funds to other charitable organizations. If David Myers is indeed a millionaire, we surely need more millionaires like him. Regards from a sunny (southern hemisphere) South Africa. Dap Louw Dap Louw, Ph.D.(Psych.), Ph.D. (Crim.) Head: Centre for Psychology and the Law Professor: Department of Psychology University of the Free State P.O. Box 339 Bloemfontein 9300 South Africa Tel: (051+) 401-2444 (work) (051+) 436-3423 (home) Fax: (051+) 444-6677 Email: louwda@ufs.ac.za Cell: 083-391-8331 _ University of the Free State: This message and its contents are subject to a disclaimer. Please refer to http://www.ufs.ac.za/disclaimer for full details. Universiteit van die Vrystaat: Hierdie boodskap en sy inhoud is aan 'n vrywaringsklousule onderhewig. Volledige besonderhede is by http://www.ufs.ac.za/vrywaring beskikbaar. _ --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
[tips] Dark side to iPhone giveaway on campus
But promise as well. http://chronicle.com/free/2009/01/9050n.htm?utm_source=atutm_medium=en Stephen - Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, Emeritus Bishop's University e-mail: sbl...@ubishops.ca 2600 College St. Sherbrooke QC J1M 1Z7 Canada Subscribe to discussion list (TIPS) for the teaching of psychology at http://flightline.highline.edu/sfrantz/tips/ --- --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
[tips] liking and interesting
Can anyone direct me to any empirical research which compares these two variables? For example, when participants rate how much they find something interesting, how strongly does that correlate with then liking the thing? Thanks! Steven M. Specht, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Psychology Utica College Utica, NY 13502 (315) 792-3171 The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King Jr. --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
RE: [tips] Dave Myers' text
Open Request to Michael Sylvester on Behalf of Tipsters. In view of the fact that you listed David Myers's introductory text as one of the worst, In view of the fact that I expressed surprise at this judgment, particularly because the book more cross-cultural than most introductory textbooks, In view of the fact that a variety of people have defended the book in general and agreed that it is strong on cross-cultural issues Will you please answer my earlier question?: Michael, please tell us why you dislike Myers's text? Sincerely, Stuart McKelvie ___ Stuart J. McKelvie, Ph.D., Phone: (819)822-9600, Extension 2402 Department of Psychology, Fax: (819)822-9661 Bishop's University, 2600 College Street, Sherbrooke, Québec J1M 1Z7, Canada. E-mail: smcke...@ubishops.ca Bishop's University Psychology Department Web Page: http://www.ubishops.ca/ccc/div/soc/psy ___ -Original Message- From: Dap Louw [mailto:louwda@ufs.ac.za] Sent: January 7, 2009 2:39 PM To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) Subject: [tips] Dave Myers' text I'm speechless about Michael Sylvester's rating of the Myers text. I may be wrong but I believe it's the intro text most widely prescribed internationally, one reason being that it is much less myopic than its American counterparts. We use it in South Africa and find it wonderful. One of its strongest points is that the language is very student-friendly, which a country in a country like South Africa with 11 official languages, is a very important prerequisite. In a recent email Michael Sylvester wrote something about Dave Myers being a millionaire. I don't know whether that is the case (if it is, good for him), but I wonder how many colleagues have read the following on the inner title page of most (all?) of Dave's books (it's in fine print): All royalties from the sale of this book are assigned to the David and Carol Myers Foundation, which exists to receive and distribute funds to other charitable organizations. If David Myers is indeed a millionaire, we surely need more millionaires like him. Regards from a sunny (southern hemisphere) South Africa. Dap Louw Dap Louw, Ph.D.(Psych.), Ph.D. (Crim.) Head: Centre for Psychology and the Law Professor: Department of Psychology University of the Free State P.O. Box 339 Bloemfontein 9300 South Africa Tel: (051+) 401-2444 (work) (051+) 436-3423 (home) Fax: (051+) 444-6677 Email: louwda@ufs.ac.za Cell: 083-391-8331 _ University of the Free State: This message and its contents are subject to a disclaimer. Please refer to http://www.ufs.ac.za/disclaimer for full details. Universiteit van die Vrystaat: Hierdie boodskap en sy inhoud is aan 'n vrywaringsklousule onderhewig. Volledige besonderhede is by http://www.ufs.ac.za/vrywaring beskikbaar. _ --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
[tips] ANOVA question (was cross-cultural)
(note change of subject header: cross-cultural scientific screw-up is not what this is about, for sure) On 7 Jan 2009 at 14:54, Steven Specht wrote: What are TIPSters views of various post hoc tests after doing a 2 X 2 ANOVA with repeated measures on one of the variables. Tukey's HSD isn't really appropriate as it would adjust for all four comparisons when I am only interested in comparing across the repeated measures variable (that is, a total of two comparisons rather than \ four). I'd go with two separate paired t-tests, with a Bonferroni correction (instead of testing at p = .05, do it at p = .025). Easy, quick, conservative. Stephen - Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, Emeritus Bishop's University e-mail: sbl...@ubishops.ca 2600 College St. Sherbrooke QC J1M 1Z7 Canada Subscribe to discussion list (TIPS) for the teaching of psychology at http://flightline.highline.edu/sfrantz/tips/ --- --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Extinction
I assume that you looked on Amazon, it's a lot cheaper ($25) at the source. Go to http://www.behavior.org/store/authors_cooperative.cfm On Jan 7, 2009, at 2:15 PM, Michael Smith wrote: No, unfortunately I haven't read 'Coercion and its Fallout', and by the looks of the rarity of the book and its cost, I might not be able to. I did read the article mentioned in Steven Hall's later post and it sounds like I am missing out :( --Mike --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu wrote: From: Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu Subject: Re: [tips] Extinction To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 7:56 AM Agreed! Just to reiterate: Most interventions that are described as punishment really involve negative reinforcement as their main function. In common language the term 'punishment' usually implies any use of aversive stimulation, irrespective of the contingency. BTW -- have you read Sidman's 'Coercion and its Fallout'? On Jan 7, 2009, at 3:58 AM, Michael Smith wrote: Thanks for the reply :-) I guess my point was to try and isolate the relative effectiveness of reinforcement of alternate behavior vs. punishment, at eliminating a target behavior without regard for practicalities (… in theory, ….the essence). That is, with respect to the target behavior only, if punishment would eliminate the behavior more effectively than reinforcement of alternate behaviors. I suppose 'more effectively' would probably have to be qualified: Perhaps to mean in the shortest time, with minimum number of applications to achieve behavior change, and permanence of the results (lack of spontaneous recovery) My other point was, I suppose, if this has been explored in behavior analysis, or if it hasn't really been explored because of ethical treatment of humans and other animals. Bringing it back to the realm of practicality: Perhaps THE MOST effective behavior change can be attained through a combination of reward and punishment but punishment is not pursued in combination with reinforcement of alternate behavior because, as you mentioned, it is difficult to implement properly, it has undesirable consequences, or is it mostly because it offends cultural sensibilities. --Mike --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu wrote: From: Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu Subject: Re: [tips] Extinction To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 4:58 PM Yes -- almost as effective as a bullet in the head. But since the side effects of punishment include conditioned emotional effects and avoidance behaviors, I'm not sure what the point is. Punishment would be the best available intervention only within a limited range of life threatening situations that couldn't be addressed by restructuring the environment. Remember that in practice punishment is almost inevitably paired with negative reinforcement (doing something that escapes or avoids the punisher) so that pure punishment is very hard to implement (to put it bluntly). It's more than just ethics. On Jan 6, 2009, at 6:01 PM, Michael Smith wrote: Yes. But what I was interested in is the stopping of behavior. If we ignore any side effects including physical maiming if appropriate for the punishment and we don't care about the individual, which is more effective. So. more from a theoretical perspective. What would eliminate a behavior most effectively (again we don't care about side effects or the individual concerned) postitive punishment delivered immediately and as severely as possible, or reinforcement of an incompatible behavior (or not rewarding the un-desired behavior). I would imagine it would be positive punishment. So that extinction being more effective must be a qualified statement. Would others agree with this theoretical perspective that positive punishment would be optimal (although ethically untenable)? --Mike --- On Tue, 1/6/09, Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu wrote: From: Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu Subject: Re: [tips] Extinction To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu Date: Tuesday, January 6, 2009, 7:57 AM But then we must deal with punishment's side effects. It's still not optimal. The best alternative when available is the reinforcement of alternative (and incompatible where possible) behavior. This reallocates reinforcement (which we assume is occurring as a consequence of the behavior we're trying to eliminate) rather than simply removing or competing with it. Makes better ecological sense. On Jan 5, 2009, at 11:53 PM, Michael Smith wrote: With regard to the note on extinction. With 121 posts since the last time I logged on, I must admit I didn't read a lot of them. But
Re: [tips] Cross-cultural scientific screw-up, big-time
There are various bonferroni procedures you can use if you google them. In one such procedure (darn, the name escapes me!) you simply do the number of post-hoc tests you want as t-tests and then rank order by p-values. You then divide alpha by the total number of comparisons and multiple times the rank order for the critical p. As soon as you fair to exceed critical p you stop and nothing else is considered significant. For example, let's say you are interested in three specific comparisons, you do the t-tests and get the following p-values: .010, .040, .045. If .05 is normally the accepted critical p-value and it is the one you want to use, then you would use the three critical values for comparison to the obtained p-values as (.05/3)*1 = .017. OK, .010 is less than that so the first comparison is considered significant. Next you'd go to (.05/3)*2 = .033 and since you obtained .040 you now reject that one all subsequent comparisons are nonsigificiant. So you don't need the last comparison, which would have given you a comparison of .05. So by controlling for the increased probabiilty of incorrectly finding a significant difference where it is not likely to exist you have now rejected 2 out of the 3 comparisons that you might otherwise have accepted. There really is a name for this procedure but I'm having an old-timer's momentit will come to me eventually. Of course, all of this presumes you are wedded to the theoretical ideas that underlie traditional significance testing. Annette Annette Kujawski Taylor, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology University of San Diego 5998 Alcala Park San Diego, CA 92110 619-260-4006 tay...@sandiego.edu Original message Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 14:54:29 -0500 From: Steven Specht sspe...@utica.edu Subject: Re: [tips] Cross-cultural scientific screw-up, big-time To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS) tips@acsun.frostburg.edu What are TIPSters views of various post hoc tests after doing a 2 X 2 ANOVA with repeated measures on one of the variables. Tukey's HSD isn't really appropriate as it would adjust for all four comparisons when I am only interested in comparing across the repeated measures variable (that is, a total of two comparisons rather than four). Thanks. -S Steven M. Specht, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology Chair, Department of Psychology Utica College Utica, NY 13502 (315) 792-3171 The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King Jr. --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Controlling behavior vs. coercion, was Extinction Sidman and coercion
Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu 01/07/09 1:34 PM The question of whether one can control (produce a change in behavior) without controlling is more a philosophical one. -- I am a reader of the works of Sidman, Kantor, and Powers. I'm still not sure what coercion is. Coercion certainly seems to be an ethical no-no (obsolete phrase meaning impropriety) these days, but where does effective behavioral control become coercion? Or maybe the question is, where does effective behavioral control stop becoming coercion? Is it simply a matter of informed consent? Would extinction of a TIPS member's inappropriate comments without his (or her) consent be considered coercion? Should a group such as this be coercive like that? Bill Scott --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
[tips] Dave Myers Text
How interesting that Dr. Sylvester uses a Winston Churchill quote as his new signature line. Yes, let's look at the results. When I was looking for textbooks several years ago for my high school intro and AP classes (just before the excellent Blair-Broecker/Ernst text was published), the one I selected was David Myers, Psychology for both classes. It is a wonderful well written book and yes, it did have its shortcomings. What intro book doesn't? What I found was that in each new edition, Dr. Myers made a serious effort to address that. What does that mean to me? It meant that Dr. Myers was willing to listen to comments and emails and make the changes as all good authors do. Can you make everybody happy with an intro book, no. But when teaching jaded teens, I found that they were very much in like with Dr. Myers. My AP scores proved that. Did one have to supplement? Yes and again, there were lists of materials available for picking and choosing. Do I have a bias? Yup. You for no reason I can see other that wasting 3 posts a day are attacking someone for no reason. Have I ever met Dr. Myers, no. Do I wish I had? Yes, since I live about 2 hours from his beloved Hope College. Instead, I encouraged students who wanted to major in psychology to attend Hope so they could study with him. They had nothing but praise for him. So Dr. Sylvester, where's your proof that Myers is a lousy book? Jodi Gabert RCHS _ Windows LiveTM Hotmail®: Chat. Store. Share. Do more with mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_012009 --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
RE: [tips] Dave Myers' text
Jim Matiya wrote: Hi all, I just returned from NITOP where David Myers gave a few speeches as he has all over the world. I have known the man for many years. He told me Frank Vatano may be the nicest man in Psychology. I agree with Jim in regard to what I know of Dave Myers. He has no reason to remember me, but I have met him, talked with him, and heard him speak. I knew of the foundation that he and his wife created. I do also have to agree with David in his assessment of Frank Vatano. I had the great experience of rooming with him at the first AP Reading that I participated in (1993), and he is a very nice man. I'm glad that I had the good fortune to get to know him. I often wonder how things are going in Colorado. Bob Wildblood, PhD, HSPP Lecturer in Psychology Indiana University Kokomo Kokomo, IN 46904-9003 rwild...@iuk.edu, drb...@erols.com It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others. (Anonymous) We have an obligation and a responsibility to be investing in our students and our schools. We must make sure that people who have the grades, the desire and the will, but not the money, can still get the best education possible. - Barack Obama We have in fact, two kinds of morality, side by side: one which we preach, but do not practice, and another which we practice, but seldom preach. -Bertrand Russell, philosopher, mathematician, author, Nobel laureate (1872-1970) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
[tips] TIPSTER OF THE WEEK
JOAN WARMBOLD Enjoy! Michael Sylvester,PhD Daytona Beach,Florida --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] ANOVA question (was cross-cultural)
Hi You have called the proposed tests post-hoc, which implies that you did not expect/predict an interaction between the two factors? If you DID predict an interaction, then you would be justified to do the tests proposed by Stephen B., arguably without any correction and without the interaction itself being significant. That is, the tests would simply be simple effects tests. The situation is somewhat more complicated if you did not predict/expect an interaction. You could do the tests as proposed by Stephen B., but only if the interaction is significant (or approaches significance?? ... the latter qualification because tests of interaction are very insensitive except for pure cross-over interactions). In general you are better off if you have predicted the pattern of results (and that pattern occurs, of course). That gives more freedom to the kind of tests that are warranted. Take care Jim James M. Clark Professor of Psychology 204-786-9757 204-774-4134 Fax j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca Department of Psychology University of Winnipeg Winnipeg, Manitoba R3B 2E9 CANADA sbl...@ubishops.ca 07-Jan-09 4:02 PM (note change of subject header: cross-cultural scientific screw-up is not what this is about, for sure) On 7 Jan 2009 at 14:54, Steven Specht wrote: What are TIPSters views of various post hoc tests after doing a 2 X 2 ANOVA with repeated measures on one of the variables. Tukey's HSD isn't really appropriate as it would adjust for all four comparisons when I am only interested in comparing across the repeated measures variable (that is, a total of two comparisons rather than \ four). I'd go with two separate paired t-tests, with a Bonferroni correction (instead of testing at p = .05, do it at p = .025). Easy, quick, conservative. Stephen - Stephen L. Black, Ph.D. Professor of Psychology, Emeritus Bishop's University e-mail: sbl...@ubishops.ca 2600 College St. Sherbrooke QC J1M 1Z7 Canada Subscribe to discussion list (TIPS) for the teaching of psychology at http://flightline.highline.edu/sfrantz/tips/ --- --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu) --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
Re: [tips] Controlling behavior vs. coercion, was Extinction Sidman and coercion
I'm not sure that any two people agree. Operationally, it's somewhere between control that I don't approve of and any control. If there's any common element, it would be 'control effected by another human being acting according to some plan. I'm not sure that it's really a helpful concept; something like 'sanity' that means more in a legal sense than a scientific one. I think that Skinner was on the right track when he talked about obvious contingencies. We tend to label behavior as being controlled when we are aware of the contingencies involved; particularly when they involve other people. Another useful question for talking about coercion is the question of who benefits? We are more likely to talk about coercion when, in the long run, the person being controlled benefits less than the person doing the controlling. Just some thoughts And, extinction takes place all the time on this (and other) list -- some posts are just not responded to; not according to a plan, but because no one is interested. This takes us back to 'conspiracy' It might be inappropriate if a number of individuals on the list get together and set up some sort of action plan. Again, the control itself would be no different than that resulting from lack of interest -- just the motivation of the individuals doing the controlling. On Jan 7, 2009, at 5:31 PM, William Scott wrote: Paul Brandon paul.bran...@mnsu.edu 01/07/09 1:34 PM The question of whether one can control (produce a change in behavior) without controlling is more a philosophical one. -- I am a reader of the works of Sidman, Kantor, and Powers. I'm still not sure what coercion is. Coercion certainly seems to be an ethical no-no (obsolete phrase meaning impropriety) these days, but where does effective behavioral control become coercion? Or maybe the question is, where does effective behavioral control stop becoming coercion? Is it simply a matter of informed consent? Would extinction of a TIPS member's inappropriate comments without his (or her) consent be considered coercion? Should a group such as this be coercive like that? Bill Scott Paul Brandon Emeritus Professor of Psychology Minnesota State University, Mankato paul.bran...@mnsu.edu --- To make changes to your subscription contact: Bill Southerly (bsouthe...@frostburg.edu)
