Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone?
I agree with you completely Robert - there is no evidence for learning styles (in fact, I interviewed Dr. Willingham - researcher/debunker of learning styles - on my podcast about this very thing) I was just wondering whether the concepts of learning styles and androgogy are two apples, or an apple and an orange. Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt On Sep 20, 2011, at 4:56 PM, Dr. Bob Wildblood wrote > But, "learning styles" folk say that because there are different "learning > styles" one must use different teaching methods appropriate to those > "learning styles". I've sailed in that boat, protesting all the way. Where > is > the evidence for either. There is nothing convincing that I have seen. If > it's there, direct me to it. > > Original message >> Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:18:23 -0400 >> From: Michael Britt >> Subject: Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone? >> To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" > >> >> I have to admit that you've got me questioning my original assumptions, > but doesn't a "learning style" suggest a mentalistic concept whereas using > teaching methods appropriate for mature individuals does not? >> >> >> Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. >> mich...@thepsychfiles.com >> http://www.ThePsychFiles.com >> Twitter: mbritt >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 20, 2011, at 2:57 PM, Dr. Bob Wildblood wrote: >> >>> Sorry, Mike, but I think that your definition "a set of suggested > teaching >>> methods for adults who most likely are in a different stage of life and > are >>> probably approaching their experience as a student with a different > set of >>> expectations, goals and capabilities" is exactly what the belief in > different >>> "styles of learning" is. We can certainly agree to disagree, but until I > see >>> evidence in support of either of these concepts, I'll pass. >>> >>> Original message >>>> Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 22:03:23 -0400 >>>> From: Michael Britt >>>> Subject: Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone? >>>> To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" >>> >>>> >>>> I don't see any connection between the idea of Androgogy and the >>> pseudoscience of learning styles. Androgogy is simply a set of > suggested >>> teaching methods for adults who most likely are in a different stage > of life >>> and are probably approaching their experience as a student with a >>> different set of expectations, goals and capabilities than are college > age >>> and younger learners. >>>> >>>> Adults have less time to waste than younger folks due to family and >>> work obligations and most are more able to work independently than > your >>> typical college student. Taking this into account when the teacher sets > up >>> her course seems like a good thing. I don't see more to it than that. >>>> >>>> >>>> Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. >>>> mich...@thepsychfiles.com >>>> http://www.ThePsychFiles.com >>>> Twitter: mbritt >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sep 19, 2011, at 6:12 PM, Dr. Bob Wildblood wrote: >>>> >>>>> Paul Brandon >>>>> >>>>>> Talk about dichotomizing a continuum! >>>>>> Are 17 year olds adults? 18? 22? >>>>>> >>>>> I've read a bit about andragogical Education and come away with > the >>> same >>>>> feeling I have about different learning styles in younger students. >>> These is >>>>> some smoke, but but I haven't seen any read data on it. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> Robert W. Wildblood, PhD >>>>> Adjunct Psychology Faculty >>>>> Germanna Community College >>>>> drb...@rcn.com >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> You are currently subscribed to tips as: >>> michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u? >>> > id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n
Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone?
But, "learning styles" folk say that because there are different "learning styles" one must use different teaching methods appropriate to those "learning styles". I've sailed in that boat, protesting all the way. Where is the evidence for either. There is nothing convincing that I have seen. If it's there, direct me to it. Original message >Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2011 15:18:23 -0400 >From: Michael Britt >Subject: Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone? >To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" > >I have to admit that you've got me questioning my original assumptions, but doesn't a "learning style" suggest a mentalistic concept whereas using teaching methods appropriate for mature individuals does not? > > >Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. >mich...@thepsychfiles.com >http://www.ThePsychFiles.com >Twitter: mbritt > > > > > >On Sep 20, 2011, at 2:57 PM, Dr. Bob Wildblood wrote: > >> Sorry, Mike, but I think that your definition "a set of suggested teaching >> methods for adults who most likely are in a different stage of life and are >> probably approaching their experience as a student with a different set of >> expectations, goals and capabilities" is exactly what the belief in different >> "styles of learning" is. We can certainly agree to disagree, but until I see >> evidence in support of either of these concepts, I'll pass. >> >> Original message >>> Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 22:03:23 -0400 >>> From: Michael Britt >>> Subject: Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone? >>> To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" >> >>> >>> I don't see any connection between the idea of Androgogy and the >> pseudoscience of learning styles. Androgogy is simply a set of suggested >> teaching methods for adults who most likely are in a different stage of life >> and are probably approaching their experience as a student with a >> different set of expectations, goals and capabilities than are college age >> and younger learners. >>> >>> Adults have less time to waste than younger folks due to family and >> work obligations and most are more able to work independently than your >> typical college student. Taking this into account when the teacher sets up >> her course seems like a good thing. I don't see more to it than that. >>> >>> >>> Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. >>> mich...@thepsychfiles.com >>> http://www.ThePsychFiles.com >>> Twitter: mbritt >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 19, 2011, at 6:12 PM, Dr. Bob Wildblood wrote: >>> >>>> Paul Brandon >>>> >>>>> Talk about dichotomizing a continuum! >>>>> Are 17 year olds adults? 18? 22? >>>>> >>>> I've read a bit about andragogical Education and come away with the >> same >>>> feeling I have about different learning styles in younger students. >> These is >>>> some smoke, but but I haven't seen any read data on it. >>>> >>>> >>>> . >>>> Robert W. Wildblood, PhD >>>> Adjunct Psychology Faculty >>>> Germanna Community College >>>> drb...@rcn.com >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You are currently subscribed to tips as: >> michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. >>>> To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u? >> id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n=T&l=tips&o=12775 >>>> or send a blank email to leave-12775- >> 13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu >>> >>> >>> --- >>> You are currently subscribed to tips as: drb...@rcn.com. >>> To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u? >> id=13185.d5346723901d967ccc167929e2ee94ad&n=T&l=tips&o=1278 >> 0 >>> or send a blank email to leave-12780- >> 13185.d5346723901d967ccc167929e2ee9...@fsulist.frostburg.edu >> >> >> . >> Robert W. Wildblood, PhD >> Adjunct Psychology Faculty >> Germanna Community College >> drb...@rcn.com >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com.
Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone?
I have to admit that you've got me questioning my original assumptions, but doesn't a "learning style" suggest a mentalistic concept whereas using teaching methods appropriate for mature individuals does not? Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt On Sep 20, 2011, at 2:57 PM, Dr. Bob Wildblood wrote: > Sorry, Mike, but I think that your definition "a set of suggested teaching > methods for adults who most likely are in a different stage of life and are > probably approaching their experience as a student with a different set of > expectations, goals and capabilities" is exactly what the belief in different > "styles of learning" is. We can certainly agree to disagree, but until I see > evidence in support of either of these concepts, I'll pass. > > Original message >> Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 22:03:23 -0400 >> From: Michael Britt >> Subject: Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone? >> To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" > >> >> I don't see any connection between the idea of Androgogy and the > pseudoscience of learning styles. Androgogy is simply a set of suggested > teaching methods for adults who most likely are in a different stage of life > and are probably approaching their experience as a student with a > different set of expectations, goals and capabilities than are college age > and younger learners. >> >> Adults have less time to waste than younger folks due to family and > work obligations and most are more able to work independently than your > typical college student. Taking this into account when the teacher sets up > her course seems like a good thing. I don't see more to it than that. >> >> >> Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. >> mich...@thepsychfiles.com >> http://www.ThePsychFiles.com >> Twitter: mbritt >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sep 19, 2011, at 6:12 PM, Dr. Bob Wildblood wrote: >> >>> Paul Brandon >>> >>>> Talk about dichotomizing a continuum! >>>> Are 17 year olds adults? 18? 22? >>>> >>> I've read a bit about andragogical Education and come away with the > same >>> feeling I have about different learning styles in younger students. > These is >>> some smoke, but but I haven't seen any read data on it. >>> >>> >>> . >>> Robert W. Wildblood, PhD >>> Adjunct Psychology Faculty >>> Germanna Community College >>> drb...@rcn.com >>> >>> --- >>> You are currently subscribed to tips as: > michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. >>> To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u? > id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n=T&l=tips&o=12775 >>> or send a blank email to leave-12775- > 13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu >> >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: drb...@rcn.com. >> To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u? > id=13185.d5346723901d967ccc167929e2ee94ad&n=T&l=tips&o=1278 > 0 >> or send a blank email to leave-12780- > 13185.d5346723901d967ccc167929e2ee9...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > > . > Robert W. Wildblood, PhD > Adjunct Psychology Faculty > Germanna Community College > drb...@rcn.com > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n=T&l=tips&o=12816 > or send a blank email to > leave-12816-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=12817 or send a blank email to leave-12817-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone?
Sorry, Mike, but I think that your definition "a set of suggested teaching methods for adults who most likely are in a different stage of life and are probably approaching their experience as a student with a different set of expectations, goals and capabilities" is exactly what the belief in different "styles of learning" is. We can certainly agree to disagree, but until I see evidence in support of either of these concepts, I'll pass. Original message >Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2011 22:03:23 -0400 >From: Michael Britt >Subject: Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone? >To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" > >I don't see any connection between the idea of Androgogy and the pseudoscience of learning styles. Androgogy is simply a set of suggested teaching methods for adults who most likely are in a different stage of life and are probably approaching their experience as a student with a different set of expectations, goals and capabilities than are college age and younger learners. > >Adults have less time to waste than younger folks due to family and work obligations and most are more able to work independently than your typical college student. Taking this into account when the teacher sets up her course seems like a good thing. I don't see more to it than that. > > >Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. >mich...@thepsychfiles.com >http://www.ThePsychFiles.com >Twitter: mbritt > > > > > >On Sep 19, 2011, at 6:12 PM, Dr. Bob Wildblood wrote: > >> Paul Brandon >> >>> Talk about dichotomizing a continuum! >>> Are 17 year olds adults? 18? 22? >>> >> I've read a bit about andragogical Education and come away with the same >> feeling I have about different learning styles in younger students. These is >> some smoke, but but I haven't seen any read data on it. >> >> >> . >> Robert W. Wildblood, PhD >> Adjunct Psychology Faculty >> Germanna Community College >> drb...@rcn.com >> >> --- >> You are currently subscribed to tips as: michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. >> To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u? id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n=T&l=tips&o=12775 >> or send a blank email to leave-12775- 13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to tips as: drb...@rcn.com. >To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u? id=13185.d5346723901d967ccc167929e2ee94ad&n=T&l=tips&o=1278 0 >or send a blank email to leave-12780- 13185.d5346723901d967ccc167929e2ee9...@fsulist.frostburg.edu . Robert W. Wildblood, PhD Adjunct Psychology Faculty Germanna Community College drb...@rcn.com --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=12816 or send a blank email to leave-12816-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone?
Hi Michael I think Robert's point was that Andragogical principles were perhaps as lacking in empirical evidence as learning styles ... not that they are equivalent or related in any other way. You mention some of the assumptions made about "older" learners. Ignoring for a moment the definition of older, is there evidence for these assumptions? Or are they simply based on common sense and intuition? Thinking about the "less time" assumption, for example, would it be true of retired people? And what about younger people who may work long hours outside of school? Or students who take a full or more course load, rather than a single course? One of the principles you do not mention, but I read somewhere was that andragogical teaching would be more a negotiation and collaboration between teachers and learners, as more mature learners would be better able to contribute to deciding what they need to learn. When I think of teaching something like statistics, I don't see the validity to this assumption. And I wonder about other substantive courses as well ... how are learners suppose to know what they need to know about subjects that they haven't already learned about? Seems somewhat paradoxical to me. And to again draw an analogy to the learning styles literature, is there evidence that adapting one's teaching along the lines of adragogical principles is in fact more effective for mature learners (and not for younger learners)? Isn't one criticism of the learning styles literature that such studies tend to NOT support the idea of "different strokes for different folks"? Take care Jim James M. Clark Professor of Psychology 204-786-9757 204-774-4134 Fax j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca >>> Michael Britt 19-Sep-11 9:03:23 PM >>> I don't see any connection between the idea of Androgogy and the pseudoscience of learning styles. Androgogy is simply a set of suggested teaching methods for adults who most likely are in a different stage of life and are probably approaching their experience as a student with a different set of expectations, goals and capabilities than are college age and younger learners. Adults have less time to waste than younger folks due to family and work obligations and most are more able to work independently than your typical college student. Taking this into account when the teacher sets up her course seems like a good thing. I don't see more to it than that. Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt On Sep 19, 2011, at 6:12 PM, Dr. Bob Wildblood wrote: > Paul Brandon > >> Talk about dichotomizing a continuum! >> Are 17 year olds adults? 18? 22? >> > I've read a bit about andragogical Education and come away with the same > feeling I have about different learning styles in younger students. These is > some smoke, but but I haven't seen any read data on it. > > > . > Robert W. Wildblood, PhD > Adjunct Psychology Faculty > Germanna Community College > drb...@rcn.com > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n=T&l=tips&o=12775 > > or send a blank email to > leave-12775-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: j.cl...@uwinnipeg.ca. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a891720c9&n=T&l=tips&o=12780 or send a blank email to leave-12780-13251.645f86b5cec4da0a56ffea7a89172...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=12782 or send a blank email to leave-12782-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone?
I don't see any connection between the idea of Androgogy and the pseudoscience of learning styles. Androgogy is simply a set of suggested teaching methods for adults who most likely are in a different stage of life and are probably approaching their experience as a student with a different set of expectations, goals and capabilities than are college age and younger learners. Adults have less time to waste than younger folks due to family and work obligations and most are more able to work independently than your typical college student. Taking this into account when the teacher sets up her course seems like a good thing. I don't see more to it than that. Michael A. Britt, Ph.D. mich...@thepsychfiles.com http://www.ThePsychFiles.com Twitter: mbritt On Sep 19, 2011, at 6:12 PM, Dr. Bob Wildblood wrote: > Paul Brandon > >> Talk about dichotomizing a continuum! >> Are 17 year olds adults? 18? 22? >> > I've read a bit about andragogical Education and come away with the same > feeling I have about different learning styles in younger students. These is > some smoke, but but I haven't seen any read data on it. > > > . > Robert W. Wildblood, PhD > Adjunct Psychology Faculty > Germanna Community College > drb...@rcn.com > > --- > You are currently subscribed to tips as: michael.br...@thepsychfiles.com. > To unsubscribe click here: > http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958f69&n=T&l=tips&o=12775 > or send a blank email to > leave-12775-13405.0125141592fa9ededc665c55d9958...@fsulist.frostburg.edu --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=12780 or send a blank email to leave-12780-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone?
Paul Brandon >Talk about dichotomizing a continuum! >Are 17 year olds adults? 18? 22? > I've read a bit about andragogical Education and come away with the same feeling I have about different learning styles in younger students. These is some smoke, but but I haven't seen any read data on it. . Robert W. Wildblood, PhD Adjunct Psychology Faculty Germanna Community College drb...@rcn.com --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=12775 or send a blank email to leave-12775-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone?
Talk about dichotomizing a continuum! Are 17 year olds adults? 18? 22? On Sep 19, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Rene Verry wrote: Tipsters, Because I am currently enrolled in a tutor certification course through the National Tutoring Association, I had the opportunity to learn more about the andragogical approach (like Jim I was not aware of this distinction either). Andragogy is distinguished from pedagogy with the former emphasizing the role of teacher as tutor, coach, or guide. Whereas the teacher is more in control of learning objectives, class structure in a pedagogical model, the andragogical teacher / tutor works as an equal partner where learning goals are mutually determined and negotiated, teaching methods individualized according to the needs of the learner (idiosyncratic), with problem solving and Socratic questioning as dominant approaches to material delivery. Not surprisingly, tutoring takes the andragogical approach, but it is used with all ages and not limited to adult education. Andragogical goals include developing an increased understanding of the material (common to all instruction), become a self-directed / independent learner (present in many pedagogies), through individualized 1:1 or 1:few interaction (usually limited by class size, time constraints, curriculum requirements, etc.). Hope this helps... rene --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=12773 or send a blank email to leave-12773-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
Re: [tips] Andragogical Education anyone?
Tipsters, Because I am currently enrolled in a tutor certification course through the National Tutoring Association, I had the opportunity to learn more about the andragogical approach (like Jim I was not aware of this distinction either). Andragogy is distinguished from pedagogy with the former emphasizing the role of teacher as tutor, coach, or guide. Whereas the teacher is more in control of learning objectives, class structure in a pedagogical model, the andragogical teacher / tutor works as an equal partner where learning goals are mutually determined and negotiated, teaching methods individualized according to the needs of the learner (idiosyncratic), with problem solving and Socratic questioning as dominant approaches to material delivery. Not surprisingly, tutoring takes the andragogical approach, but it is used with all ages and not limited to adult education. Andragogical goals include developing an increased understanding of the material (common to all instruction), become a self-directed / independent learner (present in many pedagogies), through individualized 1:1 or 1:few interaction (usually limited by class size, time constraints, curriculum requirements, etc.). Hope this helps... rene Sources: Knowles, M. 1977. The modern practice of adult education: Andragogy versus pedagogy. New York: Association. Knowles, M. 1980. From andragogy to pedagogy. New York: Association. It's Called Andragogy. ( http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/viewarticle?data=dGJyMPPp44rp2%2fdV0%2bnjisfk5Ie46bZMsKexTrGk63nn5KyI8e%2fhgL6vrUm3pbBIr6eeTLims1Kxq55oy5zyit%2fk8Xnh6ueH7N%2fiVa%2brt0m2q7dLta%2bkhN%2fk5VXj5KR84LPui%2ffepIzf3btZzJzfhruorki0o69Jsay1Ra6nrz7k5fCF3%2bq7fvPi6ozj7vIA&hid=122 )Full Text Available Forrest, Stephen Paul, III; Peterson, Tim O.; Academy of Management Learning & Education, Vol 5(1), Mar, 2006. pp. 113-122. The relationship between andragogical and pedagogical orientations and the implications for adult learning. ( http://web.ebscohost.com/ehost/viewarticle?data=dGJyMPPp44rp2%2fdV0%2bnjisfk5Ie46bZMsKexTrGk63nn5KyI8e%2fhgL6vrUm3pbBIr6eeTLims1Kxq55oy5zyit%2fk8Xnh6ueH7N%2fiVa%2brt0m2q7dLta%2bkhN%2fk5VXj5KR84LPui%2ffepIzf3btZzJzfhrunt1Gzo65PtKexRa6mrz7k5fCF3%2bq7fvPi6ozj7vIA&hid=122 )Detail Only Available Delahaye, Brian L.; Limerick, David C.; Hearn, Greg; Adult Education Quarterly, Vol 44(4), Sum, 1994. pp. 187-200. Dr. Rene Verry Ph.D. Experimental Psychology Learning Research Specialist ACT/SAT/GRE Site Supervisor Office of Student Success Staley Library Room 14D Millikin University 1184 W Main Decatur, IL 62522 217-424-6398 rve...@millikin.edu To see the world in a grain of sand, and to see heaven in a wild flower, hold infinity in the palm of your hands, and eternity in an hour. William Blake CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message along with any included attachments may contain information that is confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee,) you may not use, copy, or disclose to anyone any information contained in this message. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender and immediately delete the message and any attachments. Thank you for your cooperation. --- You are currently subscribed to tips as: arch...@jab.org. To unsubscribe click here: http://fsulist.frostburg.edu/u?id=13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df5d5&n=T&l=tips&o=12772 or send a blank email to leave-12772-13090.68da6e6e5325aa33287ff385b70df...@fsulist.frostburg.edu
