RE: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement
Catalina 2.4(assumed) Standalone could work with JSF very well and light as well. For example, JSF 1.0 --- Struts 1.1 Catalina 2.4 (- also known as Tomcat 5 servlet container) IAS Indepedent Java Technology Evangelist http://www.iasandcb.pe.kr Jakarta Seoul Project Coordinator http://jakarta.apache-korea.org -Original Message- From: jean-frederic clere [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 7:15 PM To: Tomcat Developers List Subject: Re: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement Henri Gomez wrote: Costin Manolache wrote: iasandcb wrote: Now it's almost clear that SRV 2.4 requires JDK 1.2 and JSP 2.0 does JDK 1.4. The main issue is discrepancy of J2SE requirement between SRV 2.4 and JSP 2.0, which are supposed to come up together. Actually, it isn't. All we know is that the current draft has this requirement. We should find a proper procedure ( for example a vote on tomcat dev ) and then ask our representative in JCP ( Geir for example - he's a very nice person ) to request a change. I don't know what's the proper mechanism yet - but Apache does have a representative and a vote, and we should have a way to have the opinion of tomcat-dev expressed. If the final JSP2.0 will require 1.4 - then we'll have to do that. It would be very unfortunate ( especially for jsp people ), and will require ( IMO ) a separate tomcat without JSPs. My opinion ( and it seems a lot of people have the same opinion ) that portability ( in the sense of beeing able to run on most OS and platforms ) seems to agree with what Apache is doing in most projects ( Apache server runs on more platforms than java - and did that even before 'write once, run everywhere'). We should first explore the alternative for having this opinion confirmed ( vote ? ) and expressed in the expert group. If the EG prefers features over portability - then we need to find a way to create a distribution without JSP ( is this possible ?) and maybe compensate by including cocoon or velocity. +1 here . If Tomcat 5 require JDK 1.4, I'll have to stay with Tomcat 3.3.x or 4.1.x on my Linux and iSeries productions boxes. Could we imagine alternatives ? - Tomcat 5 using Serlvet 2.3/JSP 1.2 ? - Tomcat 5 using Servlet 2.4 and JSP 1.2 ? - Tomcat 5 using Servlet 2.4 and JSP 1.2 or JSP 2.0 depending the JVM found at runtime ? - Tomcat 5 bundled without JSP 2.0 ? - Tomcat 5 bundled with velocity or tea instead of JSP 2.0 ? I'm afraid that making JDK 1.4 mandatory for Tomcat 5 (or JSP 2.0) will delay for a long time its adoption by companies, until all platform got JDK 1.4, which means for example that people which use IBM SDK on Linux or mainframes systems will have to wait up to the end of year ad minima. As I will probably have to deliver JSP 2.0 with the next Tomcat I would prefer that JSP 2.0 only requires JDK 1.3. But I like the idea of having a modular Tomcat. So Tomcat 5 bundled without JSP 2.0 but with ready for adding adding JSP, velocity or whatever sounds great. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement
Assuming Tomcat subproject plan, Tomcat 5 basically consists of Catalina 2.4, Jasper 2.0, and it requires JDK 1.4 according to JSP 2.0 PFD. However, you still have choices laying stacks as you want for your mission. any possible Jasper (or even none) -- -- mandates only common JDK requirement. any possible Catalina (necessary) IAS Indepedent Java Technology Evangelist http://www.iasandcb.pe.kr Jakarta Seoul Project Coordinator http://jakarta.apache-korea.org -Original Message- From: Henri Gomez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 5:20 PM To: Tomcat Developers List Subject: Re: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement Costin Manolache wrote: iasandcb wrote: Now it's almost clear that SRV 2.4 requires JDK 1.2 and JSP 2.0 does JDK 1.4. The main issue is discrepancy of J2SE requirement between SRV 2.4 and JSP 2.0, which are supposed to come up together. Actually, it isn't. All we know is that the current draft has this requirement. We should find a proper procedure ( for example a vote on tomcat dev ) and then ask our representative in JCP ( Geir for example - he's a very nice person ) to request a change. I don't know what's the proper mechanism yet - but Apache does have a representative and a vote, and we should have a way to have the opinion of tomcat-dev expressed. If the final JSP2.0 will require 1.4 - then we'll have to do that. It would be very unfortunate ( especially for jsp people ), and will require ( IMO ) a separate tomcat without JSPs. My opinion ( and it seems a lot of people have the same opinion ) that portability ( in the sense of beeing able to run on most OS and platforms ) seems to agree with what Apache is doing in most projects ( Apache server runs on more platforms than java - and did that even before 'write once, run everywhere'). We should first explore the alternative for having this opinion confirmed ( vote ? ) and expressed in the expert group. If the EG prefers features over portability - then we need to find a way to create a distribution without JSP ( is this possible ?) and maybe compensate by including cocoon or velocity. +1 here . If Tomcat 5 require JDK 1.4, I'll have to stay with Tomcat 3.3.x or 4.1.x on my Linux and iSeries productions boxes. Could we imagine alternatives ? - Tomcat 5 using Serlvet 2.3/JSP 1.2 ? - Tomcat 5 using Servlet 2.4 and JSP 1.2 ? - Tomcat 5 using Servlet 2.4 and JSP 1.2 or JSP 2.0 depending the JVM found at runtime ? - Tomcat 5 bundled without JSP 2.0 ? - Tomcat 5 bundled with velocity or tea instead of JSP 2.0 ? I'm afraid that making JDK 1.4 mandatory for Tomcat 5 (or JSP 2.0) will delay for a long time its adoption by companies, until all platform got JDK 1.4, which means for example that people which use IBM SDK on Linux or mainframes systems will have to wait up to the end of year ad minima. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement
On 5/10/02 12:43 am, Mark Roth [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It has been brought to my attention that some members of the Tomcat community have expressed a desire to see a requirement lower than J2SE 1.4 in JSP 2.0. Great... One more reason to start thinking about kicking JSP out of the door! :-) I'm not going to run 1.4 in production for quite some time :-) Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement
Costin Manolache wrote: iasandcb wrote: Now it's almost clear that SRV 2.4 requires JDK 1.2 and JSP 2.0 does JDK 1.4. The main issue is discrepancy of J2SE requirement between SRV 2.4 and JSP 2.0, which are supposed to come up together. Actually, it isn't. All we know is that the current draft has this requirement. We should find a proper procedure ( for example a vote on tomcat dev ) and then ask our representative in JCP ( Geir for example - he's a very nice person ) to request a change. I don't know what's the proper mechanism yet - but Apache does have a representative and a vote, and we should have a way to have the opinion of tomcat-dev expressed. If the final JSP2.0 will require 1.4 - then we'll have to do that. It would be very unfortunate ( especially for jsp people ), and will require ( IMO ) a separate tomcat without JSPs. My opinion ( and it seems a lot of people have the same opinion ) that portability ( in the sense of beeing able to run on most OS and platforms ) seems to agree with what Apache is doing in most projects ( Apache server runs on more platforms than java - and did that even before 'write once, run everywhere'). We should first explore the alternative for having this opinion confirmed ( vote ? ) and expressed in the expert group. If the EG prefers features over portability - then we need to find a way to create a distribution without JSP ( is this possible ?) and maybe compensate by including cocoon or velocity. +1 here . If Tomcat 5 require JDK 1.4, I'll have to stay with Tomcat 3.3.x or 4.1.x on my Linux and iSeries productions boxes. Could we imagine alternatives ? - Tomcat 5 using Serlvet 2.3/JSP 1.2 ? - Tomcat 5 using Servlet 2.4 and JSP 1.2 ? - Tomcat 5 using Servlet 2.4 and JSP 1.2 or JSP 2.0 depending the JVM found at runtime ? - Tomcat 5 bundled without JSP 2.0 ? - Tomcat 5 bundled with velocity or tea instead of JSP 2.0 ? I'm afraid that making JDK 1.4 mandatory for Tomcat 5 (or JSP 2.0) will delay for a long time its adoption by companies, until all platform got JDK 1.4, which means for example that people which use IBM SDK on Linux or mainframes systems will have to wait up to the end of year ad minima. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement
Henri Gomez wrote: Costin Manolache wrote: iasandcb wrote: Now it's almost clear that SRV 2.4 requires JDK 1.2 and JSP 2.0 does JDK 1.4. The main issue is discrepancy of J2SE requirement between SRV 2.4 and JSP 2.0, which are supposed to come up together. Actually, it isn't. All we know is that the current draft has this requirement. We should find a proper procedure ( for example a vote on tomcat dev ) and then ask our representative in JCP ( Geir for example - he's a very nice person ) to request a change. I don't know what's the proper mechanism yet - but Apache does have a representative and a vote, and we should have a way to have the opinion of tomcat-dev expressed. If the final JSP2.0 will require 1.4 - then we'll have to do that. It would be very unfortunate ( especially for jsp people ), and will require ( IMO ) a separate tomcat without JSPs. My opinion ( and it seems a lot of people have the same opinion ) that portability ( in the sense of beeing able to run on most OS and platforms ) seems to agree with what Apache is doing in most projects ( Apache server runs on more platforms than java - and did that even before 'write once, run everywhere'). We should first explore the alternative for having this opinion confirmed ( vote ? ) and expressed in the expert group. If the EG prefers features over portability - then we need to find a way to create a distribution without JSP ( is this possible ?) and maybe compensate by including cocoon or velocity. +1 here . If Tomcat 5 require JDK 1.4, I'll have to stay with Tomcat 3.3.x or 4.1.x on my Linux and iSeries productions boxes. Could we imagine alternatives ? - Tomcat 5 using Serlvet 2.3/JSP 1.2 ? - Tomcat 5 using Servlet 2.4 and JSP 1.2 ? - Tomcat 5 using Servlet 2.4 and JSP 1.2 or JSP 2.0 depending the JVM found at runtime ? - Tomcat 5 bundled without JSP 2.0 ? - Tomcat 5 bundled with velocity or tea instead of JSP 2.0 ? I'm afraid that making JDK 1.4 mandatory for Tomcat 5 (or JSP 2.0) will delay for a long time its adoption by companies, until all platform got JDK 1.4, which means for example that people which use IBM SDK on Linux or mainframes systems will have to wait up to the end of year ad minima. As I will probably have to deliver JSP 2.0 with the next Tomcat I would prefer that JSP 2.0 only requires JDK 1.3. But I like the idea of having a modular Tomcat. So Tomcat 5 bundled without JSP 2.0 but with ready for adding adding JSP, velocity or whatever sounds great. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement
, 2.4 (Java 2 classic) jasper [jsp engine] : 1.1, 1.2 (Java 2 classic), 2.0 (Java 2 modern) connectos : Coyote, JK2, ... add-ons: JDBC SE guidance(only documents can be OK), administration, manager, ... and finally Tomcat [fully-equipped web container] : 3.x, 4.x (Java 2 classic), 5.x (Java 2 modern) Once again, the motto of the idea is freedom of choice and economy of collaboration. IAS Independent Java Technology Evangelist http://www.iasandcb.pe.kr -Original Message- From: Mark Roth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 8:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement It has been brought to my attention that some members of the Tomcat community have expressed a desire to see a requirement lower than J2SE 1.4 in JSP 2.0. First, let me reassure you that the JSP 2.0 specification is not final. Actually, we are in Proposed Final Draft phase, and we are explicitly soliciting feedback! Early feedback is always much appreciated. As per the cover of the specification, the appropriate forum for feedback is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regarding the J2SE 1.4 requirement, the expert group discussed the topic in early August (as issue [OTH-17] J2SE Version Requirement) and there was concensus from the different experts, but the EG is open to additional comments. You can send mail directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED], or, maybe better in this case, talk directly to the Apache representatives to the Expert Group: Ricardo Rocha ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and Geir Magnusson Jr. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). In general the more feedback the rep has from his community the better for the Expert Group. For what it's worth, the only technical reasons we require J2SE 1.4 are: 1. We require support for JSR-45 (Debugging Support for Other Languages) 2. We declare support for Unicode 3.0 in our I18N chapter. Actually, JSR-45 is quite important for the platform as a whole. For example, it was recently pointed out to me that there's a bug report against Tomcat 5 because we didn't re-implement the pseudo-debug comments that Jasper 1 used to create, and that some tools relied on. Standard debugging annotations is an important enabler, and it would be a shame to have to wait even longer for it. From my perspective, the most significant reason to require J2SE 1.4 is that it would be best if people can write portable tag handlers that utilize J2SE 1.4 libraries, and be able to use them in any JSP 2.0 application. Do we really want to stagnate on J2SE 1.2 APIs forever? I've compiled a list of new features in J2SE 1.3 and J2SE 1.4 that I believe would be of use to page authors and tag library developers that would decide to use JSP 2.0. It would be awesome, IMHO, if page authors and tag library developers could rely on these features being present in any JSP 2.0 compliant container. This list was also discussed in the Expert Group. J2SE 1.3 adds (among other features): * Built-in JNDI * RMI/IIOP * CORBA ORB * PNG support (for image taglibs) * Various Security enhancements * Improved socket support * HTTP 1.1 client-side support * DynamicProxy * Serialization enhancements * Collections enhancements * BigDecimal and BigInteger enhancements * StrictMath * Timer API * Delete-on-close mode for opening zip and jar files * JPDA tool support J2SE 1.4 adds (among other features): * XML Processing * New I/O APIs * Security: Java Cryptography integrated * Security: GSS-API, Certification Path API * Pluggable Image I/O framework * Print Service API * Standard Logging APIs * Long-term Persistence of JavaBeans * JDBC 3.0 * Assertions * Preferences API * Chained Exception Facility * IPv6 Networking Support * JNDI enhancements * CORBA ORB with POA * *** JSR-45 (Debugging Support for Other Languages) *** * *** Unicode 3.0 *** * Currency class * Collections Framework enhancements * Built-in support for Regular Expressions Regards, -- Mark Roth, Java Software JSP 2.0 Specification Co-Lead Sun Microsystems, Inc. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement
, Tomcat has been providing a lot of optional features for users' sake. DB Connection Pooling and useful web applications such as adminstration and manager are some of them. Notwithstanding the merit, they are actually optional and distinct. Instead of packaging all the presents, we can develop and release each package indepedently and give full guidance to deploy and undeploy them on catalina. Choices are up to users, who are supposed to be capable of manipulating. Let me tell you some scenarios: A is a beginner, and feel like making and running servlets and JSP pages with MySQL DB. Absolutely A's choice is Tomcat 5 integrated distribution(all-in-one type). On the other hand, B is a skillful Java web developers, and wants his web container to work standalone as light and fast as possible. B's choice is catalina 2.4 + jasper 2.0 + Coyote + NIO acceleration add-on because B may not need additional connectors or extra web applications. Structure jasper(JSP engine) | Add-on | Add-on | ... | some other engine | - every pluggable component is --downloadable and deployable. catalina(SRV Container) In short, Tomcat subprojects will be like this: catalina [servlet container] : 2.2, 2.3, 2.4 (Java 2 classic) jasper [jsp engine] : 1.1, 1.2 (Java 2 classic), 2.0 (Java 2 modern) connectos : Coyote, JK2, ... add-ons: JDBC SE guidance(only documents can be OK), administration, manager, ... and finally Tomcat [fully-equipped web container] : 3.x, 4.x (Java 2 classic), 5.x (Java 2 modern) Once again, the motto of the idea is freedom of choice and economy of collaboration. IAS Independent Java Technology Evangelist http://www.iasandcb.pe.kr -Original Message- From: Mark Roth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 8:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement It has been brought to my attention that some members of the Tomcat community have expressed a desire to see a requirement lower than J2SE 1.4 in JSP 2.0. First, let me reassure you that the JSP 2.0 specification is not final. Actually, we are in Proposed Final Draft phase, and we are explicitly soliciting feedback! Early feedback is always much appreciated. As per the cover of the specification, the appropriate forum for feedback is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regarding the J2SE 1.4 requirement, the expert group discussed the topic in early August (as issue [OTH-17] J2SE Version Requirement) and there was concensus from the different experts, but the EG is open to additional comments. You can send mail directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED], or, maybe better in this case, talk directly to the Apache representatives to the Expert Group: Ricardo Rocha ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and Geir Magnusson Jr. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). In general the more feedback the rep has from his community the better for the Expert Group. For what it's worth, the only technical reasons we require J2SE 1.4 are: 1. We require support for JSR-45 (Debugging Support for Other Languages) 2. We declare support for Unicode 3.0 in our I18N chapter. Actually, JSR-45 is quite important for the platform as a whole. For example, it was recently pointed out to me that there's a bug report against Tomcat 5 because we didn't re-implement the pseudo-debug comments that Jasper 1 used to create, and that some tools relied on. Standard debugging annotations is an important enabler, and it would be a shame to have to wait even longer for it. From my perspective, the most significant reason to require J2SE 1.4 is that it would be best if people can write portable tag handlers that utilize J2SE 1.4 libraries, and be able to use them in any JSP 2.0 application. Do we really want to stagnate on J2SE 1.2 APIs forever? I've compiled a list of new features in J2SE 1.3 and J2SE 1.4 that I believe would be of use to page authors and tag library developers that would decide to use JSP 2.0. It would be awesome, IMHO, if page authors and tag library developers could rely on these features being present in any JSP 2.0 compliant container. This list was also discussed in the Expert Group. J2SE 1.3 adds (among other features): * Built-in JNDI * RMI/IIOP * CORBA ORB * PNG support (for image taglibs) * Various Security enhancements * Improved socket support * HTTP 1.1 client-side support * DynamicProxy * Serialization enhancements * Collections enhancements * BigDecimal and BigInteger enhancements * StrictMath * Timer API * Delete-on-close mode for opening zip and jar files * JPDA tool support J2SE 1.4 adds (among other features): * XML Processing
Re: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement
Costin Manolache wrote: iasandcb wrote: Now it's almost clear that SRV 2.4 requires JDK 1.2 and JSP 2.0 does JDK 1.4. The main issue is discrepancy of J2SE requirement between SRV 2.4 and JSP 2.0, which are supposed to come up together. Actually, it isn't. All we know is that the current draft has this requirement. We should find a proper procedure ( for example a vote on tomcat dev ) and then ask our representative in JCP ( Geir for example - he's a very nice person ) to request a change. I don't know what's the proper mechanism yet - but Apache does have a representative and a vote, and we should have a way to have the opinion of tomcat-dev expressed. If the final JSP2.0 will require 1.4 - then we'll have to do that. It would be very unfortunate ( especially for jsp people ), and will require ( IMO ) a separate tomcat without JSPs. My opinion ( and it seems a lot of people have the same opinion ) that portability ( in the sense of beeing able to run on most OS and platforms ) seems to agree with what Apache is doing in most projects ( Apache server runs on more platforms than java - and did that even before 'write once, run everywhere'). We should first explore the alternative for having this opinion confirmed ( vote ? ) and expressed in the expert group. If the EG prefers features over portability - then we need to find a way to create a distribution without JSP ( is this possible ?) and maybe compensate by including cocoon or velocity. Personally, I would support 1.3 (and 1.2 assuming you are willing to download missing libraries). 1.4 brings I/O improvements so it's a nice JDK choice, even if the nio API itself seems useless for Tomcat. I have no problem with including Velocity if people want it. As for Cocoon, it is huge, so this looks like a bad idea. If you're interested in the issue, you should make a proper call for vote. Remy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement
Remy Maucherat wrote: If the EG prefers features over portability - then we need to find a way to create a distribution without JSP ( is this possible ?) and maybe compensate by including cocoon or velocity. Personally, I would support 1.3 (and 1.2 assuming you are willing to download missing libraries). 1.4 brings I/O improvements so it's a nice JDK choice, even if the nio API itself seems useless for Tomcat. I'm fine with using any API in JDK1.4 that we need - but not with _requiring_ JDK1.4. We can easily detect JDK1.4 and enable NIO for that case, or anything else that would help up. I'm obviously -1 on using jdk1.4 regexp or logging API or any 'boundled' feature that can't be used in plain Java2 ( especially when we have better alternatives that work with any java). I have no problem with including Velocity if people want it. As for Cocoon, it is huge, so this looks like a bad idea. If we can't include JSP2.0 for JDK1.2 and JDK1.3 ( and more important for me - for GCJ and Kaffe and open source VMs ) - then we should include some alternative. We could include JSP1.2, but I doubt we're allowed to do so by licence. The 'default' tomcat release ( in case JSP2 remains with JDK1.4 requirement) will obviously continue to be the same. What I'm interested is what we'll do for the 'tomcat for java2' release. If you're interested in the issue, you should make a proper call for vote. I'm interested in having tomcat and java-based webapps on most platforms. I would prefer to have JSP - and I'm more interested in having this requirement fixed. But if it stops beeing an option, then we need alternatives. If I would care more about features and less about portability, then I could write C# and use windows. -- Costin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement
The spec defines a conforming JSP 2.0 implementation as one that runs on JDK 1.4. A JSP author may therefore assume the new API's are available when creating their webapp. It's a serious issue for, say, Oracle, or IBM, who has a custom Java VM. But, I hadn't noticed that Apache is bundling JDK's with Tomcat. To assemble a conforming platform, a JDK 1.4 must be provided. If you use a 1.3 level JDK, then the conformance test would, presumeably, fail. And some conforming JSP pages that rely on new APIs wouldn't work. I don't see any requirement that a random JSP 2.0 page absolutely not run on JDK 1.2 or 1.3. It's simply out of scope for the spec. It comes down to what JDK level Jakarta wants to support. Tomcat 5.0 MUST run on JDK 1.4. Allowing it to run on JDK 1.3 or 1.2 should not hinder that. On Monday 07 October 2002 04:50 pm, Remy Maucherat wrote: Costin Manolache wrote: iasandcb wrote: Now it's almost clear that SRV 2.4 requires JDK 1.2 and JSP 2.0 does JDK 1.4. The main issue is discrepancy of J2SE requirement between SRV 2.4 and JSP 2.0, which are supposed to come up together. Actually, it isn't. All we know is that the current draft has this requirement. We should find a proper procedure ( for example a vote on tomcat dev ) and then ask our representative in JCP ( Geir for example - he's a very nice person ) to request a change. I don't know what's the proper mechanism yet - but Apache does have a representative and a vote, and we should have a way to have the opinion of tomcat-dev expressed. If the final JSP2.0 will require 1.4 - then we'll have to do that. It would be very unfortunate ( especially for jsp people ), and will require ( IMO ) a separate tomcat without JSPs. My opinion ( and it seems a lot of people have the same opinion ) that portability ( in the sense of beeing able to run on most OS and platforms ) seems to agree with what Apache is doing in most projects ( Apache server runs on more platforms than java - and did that even before 'write once, run everywhere'). We should first explore the alternative for having this opinion confirmed ( vote ? ) and expressed in the expert group. If the EG prefers features over portability - then we need to find a way to create a distribution without JSP ( is this possible ?) and maybe compensate by including cocoon or velocity. Personally, I would support 1.3 (and 1.2 assuming you are willing to download missing libraries). 1.4 brings I/O improvements so it's a nice JDK choice, even if the nio API itself seems useless for Tomcat. I have no problem with including Velocity if people want it. As for Cocoon, it is huge, so this looks like a bad idea. If you're interested in the issue, you should make a proper call for vote. Remy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement
My opinion is that being cross platform (IBM VM, JRockit (BEA), etc.) is very important and making it required using Sun VM (1.4) is not a good idea. Until there are other VMs that are 1.4, there must be a workaround (add these JARs to make 1.3 work). .V Mark Roth wrote: It has been brought to my attention that some members of the Tomcat community have expressed a desire to see a requirement lower than J2SE 1.4 in JSP 2.0. First, let me reassure you that the JSP 2.0 specification is not final. Actually, we are in Proposed Final Draft phase, and we are explicitly soliciting feedback! Early feedback is always much appreciated. As per the cover of the specification, the appropriate forum for feedback is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regarding the J2SE 1.4 requirement, the expert group discussed the topic in early August (as issue [OTH-17] J2SE Version Requirement) and there was concensus from the different experts, but the EG is open to additional comments. You can send mail directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED], or, maybe better in this case, talk directly to the Apache representatives to the Expert Group: Ricardo Rocha ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and Geir Magnusson Jr. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). In general the more feedback the rep has from his community the better for the Expert Group. For what it's worth, the only technical reasons we require J2SE 1.4 are: 1. We require support for JSR-45 (Debugging Support for Other Languages) 2. We declare support for Unicode 3.0 in our I18N chapter. Actually, JSR-45 is quite important for the platform as a whole. For example, it was recently pointed out to me that there's a bug report against Tomcat 5 because we didn't re-implement the pseudo-debug comments that Jasper 1 used to create, and that some tools relied on. Standard debugging annotations is an important enabler, and it would be a shame to have to wait even longer for it. From my perspective, the most significant reason to require J2SE 1.4 is that it would be best if people can write portable tag handlers that utilize J2SE 1.4 libraries, and be able to use them in any JSP 2.0 application. Do we really want to stagnate on J2SE 1.2 APIs forever? I've compiled a list of new features in J2SE 1.3 and J2SE 1.4 that I believe would be of use to page authors and tag library developers that would decide to use JSP 2.0. It would be awesome, IMHO, if page authors and tag library developers could rely on these features being present in any JSP 2.0 compliant container. This list was also discussed in the Expert Group. J2SE 1.3 adds (among other features): * Built-in JNDI * RMI/IIOP * CORBA ORB * PNG support (for image taglibs) * Various Security enhancements * Improved socket support * HTTP 1.1 client-side support * DynamicProxy * Serialization enhancements * Collections enhancements * BigDecimal and BigInteger enhancements * StrictMath * Timer API * Delete-on-close mode for opening zip and jar files * JPDA tool support J2SE 1.4 adds (among other features): * XML Processing * New I/O APIs * Security: Java Cryptography integrated * Security: GSS-API, Certification Path API * Pluggable Image I/O framework * Print Service API * Standard Logging APIs * Long-term Persistence of JavaBeans * JDBC 3.0 * Assertions * Preferences API * Chained Exception Facility * IPv6 Networking Support * JNDI enhancements * CORBA ORB with POA * *** JSR-45 (Debugging Support for Other Languages) *** * *** Unicode 3.0 *** * Currency class * Collections Framework enhancements * Built-in support for Regular Expressions Regards, -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement
Costin Manolache wrote: Remy Maucherat wrote: If the EG prefers features over portability - then we need to find a way to create a distribution without JSP ( is this possible ?) and maybe compensate by including cocoon or velocity. Personally, I would support 1.3 (and 1.2 assuming you are willing to download missing libraries). 1.4 brings I/O improvements so it's a nice JDK choice, even if the nio API itself seems useless for Tomcat. +1... I think 1.3 is available on several platforms. From a previous email send last week, I re-call there were only 2 classes that do not compile on 1.2. We should consider supporting 1.2 as well if it's trueWe can always optimize/abstract the code to use the stength of the target platform (like NIO). I'm fine with using any API in JDK1.4 that we need - but not with _requiring_ JDK1.4. We can easily detect JDK1.4 and enable NIO for that case, or anything else that would help up. I'm obviously -1 on using jdk1.4 regexp or logging API or any 'boundled' feature that can't be used in plain Java2 ( especially when we have better alternatives that work with any java). I have no problem with including Velocity if people want it. As for Cocoon, it is huge, so this looks like a bad idea. Just by curiosity, which JDK version are they supporting? If we can't include JSP2.0 for JDK1.2 and JDK1.3 ( and more important for me - for GCJ and Kaffe and open source VMs ) - then we should include some alternative. We could include JSP1.2, but I doubt we're allowed to do so by licence. The 'default' tomcat release ( in case JSP2 remains with JDK1.4 requirement) will obviously continue to be the same. What I'm interested is what we'll do for the 'tomcat for java2' release. If you're interested in the issue, you should make a proper call for vote. +1 The JSP 2.0 spec is not final, so we have time to ask for a change. -- Jeanfrancois I'm interested in having tomcat and java-based webapps on most platforms. I would prefer to have JSP - and I'm more interested in having this requirement fixed. But if it stops beeing an option, then we need alternatives. If I would care more about features and less about portability, then I could write C# and use windows.
JSP 2.0's J2SE 1.4 Requirement
It has been brought to my attention that some members of the Tomcat community have expressed a desire to see a requirement lower than J2SE 1.4 in JSP 2.0. First, let me reassure you that the JSP 2.0 specification is not final. Actually, we are in Proposed Final Draft phase, and we are explicitly soliciting feedback! Early feedback is always much appreciated. As per the cover of the specification, the appropriate forum for feedback is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regarding the J2SE 1.4 requirement, the expert group discussed the topic in early August (as issue [OTH-17] J2SE Version Requirement) and there was concensus from the different experts, but the EG is open to additional comments. You can send mail directly to [EMAIL PROTECTED], or, maybe better in this case, talk directly to the Apache representatives to the Expert Group: Ricardo Rocha ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) and Geir Magnusson Jr. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). In general the more feedback the rep has from his community the better for the Expert Group. For what it's worth, the only technical reasons we require J2SE 1.4 are: 1. We require support for JSR-45 (Debugging Support for Other Languages) 2. We declare support for Unicode 3.0 in our I18N chapter. Actually, JSR-45 is quite important for the platform as a whole. For example, it was recently pointed out to me that there's a bug report against Tomcat 5 because we didn't re-implement the pseudo-debug comments that Jasper 1 used to create, and that some tools relied on. Standard debugging annotations is an important enabler, and it would be a shame to have to wait even longer for it. From my perspective, the most significant reason to require J2SE 1.4 is that it would be best if people can write portable tag handlers that utilize J2SE 1.4 libraries, and be able to use them in any JSP 2.0 application. Do we really want to stagnate on J2SE 1.2 APIs forever? I've compiled a list of new features in J2SE 1.3 and J2SE 1.4 that I believe would be of use to page authors and tag library developers that would decide to use JSP 2.0. It would be awesome, IMHO, if page authors and tag library developers could rely on these features being present in any JSP 2.0 compliant container. This list was also discussed in the Expert Group. J2SE 1.3 adds (among other features): * Built-in JNDI * RMI/IIOP * CORBA ORB * PNG support (for image taglibs) * Various Security enhancements * Improved socket support * HTTP 1.1 client-side support * DynamicProxy * Serialization enhancements * Collections enhancements * BigDecimal and BigInteger enhancements * StrictMath * Timer API * Delete-on-close mode for opening zip and jar files * JPDA tool support J2SE 1.4 adds (among other features): * XML Processing * New I/O APIs * Security: Java Cryptography integrated * Security: GSS-API, Certification Path API * Pluggable Image I/O framework * Print Service API * Standard Logging APIs * Long-term Persistence of JavaBeans * JDBC 3.0 * Assertions * Preferences API * Chained Exception Facility * IPv6 Networking Support * JNDI enhancements * CORBA ORB with POA * *** JSR-45 (Debugging Support for Other Languages) *** * *** Unicode 3.0 *** * Currency class * Collections Framework enhancements * Built-in support for Regular Expressions Regards, -- Mark Roth, Java Software JSP 2.0 Specification Co-Lead Sun Microsystems, Inc. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
