Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
garym wrote: > Yes, a tiny, tiny, tiny minority. I certainly hope so! bwaldron's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1073 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
erland wrote: > I'm fairly sure the users posting on this forum is a minority of all > Squeezebox customers. Yes, a tiny, tiny, tiny minority. garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
fallenguru wrote: > > > > whereas many other bugs have not been addressed. > See, and that's not so great, at least not for people like me who > don't use their SBs stand-alone at all. It'd be nice if they threw the > core audience / loyal fan base a bone once in a while. (Triode doesn't > count ^^) > I'm fairly sure the users posting on this forum is a minority of all Squeezebox customers. It's easy to think that Logitech are directly earning a lot of money through the forum members on this forum, but in practice I think it's time we realize that most of their Squeezebox revenues comes from the mass market. Of course, some of those mass market users have got the idea to buy a Squeezebox from one of the members of this forum. I think we all agree with you regarding the above statement, it's just that we can't do anything about it, except for providing the "juicy bones" as third party developers :-) Generally the issue with geek products is that a company can survive on them for a certain time but after that they run out of geeks to sell them to and have to either: - Reach other kinds of customers -> mass market -> bigger volumes - Reach other places in the world -> global distribution -> bigger volumes These are things that Logitech should be good at, unfortunately they aren't good at software based product development and they managed to get rid of more or less everyone from Slim Devices that had experience with that, so that's the main reason why we are were where are today. Fortunately there are still a few people remaining from Slim Devices that really knows the products, so hopefully they still have the strength to try to learn everybody else within Logitech. Still, if someone from Logitech marketing would just try to understand the products and do some advertisement and place them on the warehouse shelves, I bet they could sell a lot more to mass market users than they do today. As a side note, the Logitech management/marketing people doesn't read this forum, so there is no reason to try to reach them here. There is a small chance they will read posts on the official forum at http://forums.logitech.com but then they will read it because someone from their support organization tells them to read it. erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
fallenguru wrote: > > IIRC the Transporter could have profitably been sold at <$1k but they > upped the price to match the audiophile market's expectations ^^. OT and it can't be to cheap otherwise audiophiles won't buy or they will give bad reviews and replace with something more expensive . Logitech missed the boat here too , the grand "audiophile flagship product" must gradually grow more expensive and have more fancy case work and be replaced with mk2 ,mk3 etc with trivial changes ( or non trivial changes that makes it cheaper to produce ) . Audiophile products never follows moores law and get cheaper even if they are filled with digital processing ? me cynical nah ;) :D Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
On 1 July 2012 00:22, garym wrote: > All products are eventually extinct. My 1979 apple II works fine. I don't know about you, but I'd have no problem replacing an Apple II. I really wouldn't know what to replace my Squeezeboxes with, though. The HTPC could do it, of course, but compared to the SBs it's flakey and computer-y. On 1 July 2012 07:09, jean2 wrote: > I've been using the Touch with a USB drive for the last two years, and > I've just bought one for my parents that will run similarly. I can tell > you that over two years, there have been consistent improvements > to the stand-alone support, both in speed and reliability, That's great, but it still isn't "there", it seems. Still, at least there's *some* development, so yay! > whereas many other bugs have not been addressed. See, and that's not so great, at least not for people like me who don't use their SBs stand-alone at all. It'd be nice if they threw the core audience / loyal fan base a bone once in a while. (Triode doesn't count ^^) > In the consumer market pricing is dictated by volume more than > anything else, to be able to sell at $300, they need significant > volume. Without all those various those features increasing volume, > we would be most likely paying Transporter price for the Touch. I really don't think that's true. The original Slim Devices outfit made a profit, too, even at the comparatively tiny scale they were operating at, yet the Squeezeboxes weren't more expensive. (Ok, I haven't factored in inflation, so maybe a little.) Seems to me that all volume dictates is Logitech's profit margin. IIRC the Transporter could have profitably been sold at <$1k but they upped the price to match the audiophile market's expectations ^^. ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
fallenguru wrote: > > * people who want to use the Touch stand-alone with a USB hard drive: > I've been using the Touch with a USB drive for the last two years, and I've just bought one for my parents that will run similarly. I can tell you that over two years, there have been consistent improvements to the stand-alone support, both in speed and reliability, whereas many other bugs have not been addressed. Either Logitech is is randomly fixing bugs, or they have statistic and market research that tell them this is an important feature worth fixing. In the consumer market pricing is dictated by volume more than anything else, to be able to sell at $300, they need significant volume. Without all those various those features increasing volume, we would be most likely paying Transporter price for the Touch. Actually, without Logitech selling so many SB-Radio, IMHO the product line would have been discontinued. Regards, Jean jean2's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=33946 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
All products are eventually extinct. My 1979 apple II works fine. But I can't add any apps to it. ;-) garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
On 30 June 2012 19:51, toby10 wrote: > Yes, and there are even more Amazon reviews that say "setup was a > breeze". Look at the Amazon review ratings for the Touch, what % > gives it 4 to 5 stars versus 1 to 3 stars? It's sitting at 4 stars. That doesn't mean that the negative reviews are not valid. > Some of those negative reviews are from people complaining about > content providers or poor WiFi in their homes, [things] Logitech > [can't control] Of course. But if people expect certain use-cases to work / a certain performance based on how the product is advertised by Logitech and it doesn't deliver, it's Logitech's problem anyway. > There was just a recent forum post with a guy asking why his smart > phone app can't see his LMS server nor player. Come to find out he > was connecting his smartphone via his 3G cell service and not his > WiFi. *shrug* Welcome to the mass market. Most people don't know what a LAN is. > Bottom line is a single point we can both agree on, that is the Touch > is the single best hardware player out there in it's price range. Yes. Even if one were willing to spend ten times as much there's nothing like it. That doesn't change the fact that Squeezeboxes are goint to be extinct soon, if Logitech doesn't refresh the line up and promote it more. Let's leave it at that. ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
Yes, and there are even more Amazon reviews that say "setup was a breeze". Look at the Amazon review ratings for the Touch, what % gives it 4 to 5 stars versus 1 to 3 stars? Some of those negative reviews are from people complaining about content providers or poor WiFi in their homes, nothing Logitech can control. There was just a recent forum post with a guy asking why his smart phone app can't see his LMS server nor player. Come to find out he was connecting his smartphone via his 3G cell service and not his WiFi. *shrug* We can go back & forth forever between our two interpretations of what we expect from our Touch's. Bottom line is a single point we can both agree on, that is the Touch is the single best hardware player out there in it's price range, nothing else even comes close. For US $300 you cannot match it's combination of features, functions, audio quality, flexibility, network choices (different server connections, wired or WiFi), platform selection (PC/Mac/NAS), etc... At least I assume you would agree based on the fact you say you are buying a Touch. :) toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
On 30 June 2012 12:41, toby10 wrote: > SqueezeBox will never be "mass-market" like an iPod, it has always > been a niche market [...] Yes, but is this really a bad thing? Should it even try to be more mass market? > it's broad feature set What good are features if they are little more than bullet points? This post (well, about the bottom third) hits the nail on the head: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?94109-Lms-7-8&p=695839&viewfull=1#post695839. If something is *officially* supported, it should work very very well. I had some fun reading the Touch's German Amazon reviews yesterday: * computer-savy people with a full local server and/or previous Squeezebox experience: ecstatic * people with the server on a NAS: satisfaction depends heavily on the NAS used, but unsatisfactory performance due to an overtaxed NAS is always attributed to the Touch only. * people who want to use the Touch stand-alone with a USB hard drive: 1) A lot of bus-powered drives dont work, because they draw >500mA. Of course that's the drive's fault, but normal people don't know that, so they blame the Touch. 2) Large-ish libraries (a few 10k tracks) seem to be a PITA. 3) Scanning takes ages. Combine that with the fact that people here like to disconnect their equipment from the mains overnight and you have frustrated SB owners. * people who want to use it for internet radio and streaming services: nice, but really too expensive and over-engineered for the job. Lots of problems with mysb.com. An overarching trend is that people are happier the more computer-savy they are. Most of that could be solved if the Touch's limitations and the system / infrastructure requirements were communicated more clearly (or at all). An SB-branded NAS would go a long way as well. > Not unlike your $2k two ch stereo setup. That is certainly not > mass-market as most don't have $2k invested in *all* of their audio > gear It's nice, though. I went active (studio monitors) and I'm never going back. There's some pretty decent budget options for €200-300 / pair, too. Highly recommended. ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
fallenguru wrote: > .. IMHO the Touch *doesn't > have* that much mass market appeal to begin with (the Radio might). If > it did it wouldn't be an also-ran in a market that Squeezeboxes > created. By now you've lost the mass market at "dedicated device for > music streaming". After all, there's DLNA and AirPlay. On the high(er) > end there's Sonos and various boxes by traditional hi-fi outfits, > whose potential customers wouldn't even consider anything by "crappy > computer speakers" Logitech.. Yeah, I hear ya. SqueezeBox will never be "mass-market" like an iPod, it has always been a niche market as is Sonos. But my point is that even in that niche market the players share a much wider appeal to more users due specifically to it's broad feature set, and this all helps in keeping unit costs down. DLNA & AirPlay are truly mass-market, because they are often free (i.e. often included in products) and most don't care about features & functions beyond playing mp3's and limited streaming services. This is where SqueezeBox type products set themselves apart in the market where a smaller subset of users want what these players can deliver beyond the limitations of DLNA & AirPlay type lackluster performers. Not unlike your $2k two ch stereo setup. That is certainly not mass-market as most don't have $2k invested in *all* of their audio gear and where most users are happy simply playing their purchased mp3's through their $199 home theatre in a box. But you & I wanted more than the basic stereo so we paid more. That's what makes you & I SqueezeBox owners, we're unique cuz we want more than what the mass-market will offer. DLNA introduced me to streaming music & services, it's limitations brought me to SqueezeBox. toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
On 30 June 2012 00:21, sebp wrote: > Err ... Has anybody told you - yet - that you'll be forced to upgrade to > Squeezebox Server at least, for being able to use a Touch? Relax, I'm running 7.7.x. :-) It's not that I don't update, just that I haven't needed any from-scratch installs. ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
fallenguru wrote: > Nope, never seen anything like it. My Slimserver install is years old, > the configuration even older, migrated from when I ran code direct from > the repository. SlimServer? Okay, I get it then. Err ... Has anybody told you - yet - that you'll be forced to upgrade to Squeezebox Server at least, for being able to use a Touch? It's not an option: the server software *must* know how to handle newer players' features... That being said, there were -x.0- times it misbehaved badly, but I strictly have nothing to complain about the latest server software release, it's been rock solid (some even say "boring"). And the overall performance has been greatly improved since the 6.5 days. Frankly, you really should give it a try... fallenguru wrote: > BTW, how open is the code that runs on the Touch? Can we (change and) > recompile everthing from the kernel up or is it mostly binary blobs? AFAIK, some proprietary drivers (like WLAN) are closed source, so they only ship as blobs and you'll probably be limited to compatible kernel releases , but other than that it's pretty open. IIRC, Triode had to recompile the kernel to bring enhanced USB DAC support, so it's definitely possible. sebp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11768 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
On 29 June 2012 21:38, sebp wrote: > As I'm also using Debian, and just did the test, I'm pretty sure you > were, because that's how the web interface looks like right after the > package installation: > [image: http://squeeze.le-seb.net/lms-privacy.png] Nope, never seen anything like it. My Slimserver install is years old, the configuration even older, migrated from when I ran code direct from the repository. From time to time I have to cajole it into using the server's own MySQL install and audio decoders, but other than that, no maintenance neccessary. It never ever crashes without provocation, either. (Trying to transcode 24/96 FLAC into 24/48 FLAC with only 256 MB RAM for the VM was provocation, apparently. ^^) A perfect example for never touching a running system. Anyway, I'm guessing this setup wizard only shows for new installs and/or in the new skin. But the setting might well have been enabled silently ... ... ... no it hasn't. Everything is just fine :-) BTW, how open is the code that runs on the Touch? Can we (change and) recompile everthing from the kernel up or is it mostly binary blobs? (Yay for most OT thread of the year! :p) On 29 June 2012 21:51, sebp wrote: > VFDs have always been the pricier component of the old gen > Squeezebox models They also have the advantage of actually being readable from 2-3 m, even with less than perfect eyesight. I just tried that with my phone - the screen is about the same size - no dice, even when zoomed in all the way. Not that it matters that much, I never use the SB2's screen for navigating anymore, but being able to see at a glance what's playing is nice. That and the clock. ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
fallenguru wrote: > But I'd much rather have a dumb SB2/3 with a > modern DAC, multi-channel support, maybe a bigger VFD. Can't be that > much more expensive. VFDs have always been the pricier component of the old gen Squeezebox models (and also the one that makes it more expensive today to repair an old SB rather than buying a brand new Touch). Lots of people I've been reading from would like a Touch but find it a bit expensive to their taste. Expensive, yes... although most of us know that even at 300 , it's a real bargain. sebp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11768 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
fallenguru wrote: > I'm pretty sure I wasn't asked anything, i'm using the Debian > packages, though. Anyway, anonymous statistics don't bother me. As I'm also using Debian, and just did the test, I'm pretty sure you were, because that's how the web interface looks like right after the package installation: [image: http://squeeze.le-seb.net/lms-privacy.png] Note that skipping mysb.com registration doesn't disable sending anonymous statistics to Logitech. You explicitely need to unckeck the "Help improve..." box to disable them. sebp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11768 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
On 29 June 2012 12:36, toby10 wrote: > The mass market helps keep your Touch at a reasonable price. > Take away it's > mass market appeal and your very limited market for > such a device would quadruple the price for the same hardware. You're missing the point I was trying to make. IMHO the Touch *doesn't have* that much mass market appeal to begin with (the Radio might). If it did it wouldn't be an also-ran in a market that Squeezeboxes created. By now you've lost the mass market at "dedicated device for music streaming". After all, there's DLNA and AirPlay. On the high(er) end there's Sonos and various boxes by traditional hi-fi outfits, whose potential customers wouldn't even consider anything by "crappy computer speakers" Logitech. The Touch was a bid to enter the mass market, true, with its touch screen, color, embedded server, USB / SD connectivity - and maybe it's cheaper because of that. But I'd much rather have a dumb SB2/3 with a modern DAC, multi-channel support, maybe a bigger VFD. Can't be that much more expensive. The Squeezeboxes badly need a fresh model line up with two or three well-defined niches, a new brand and a marketing campaign, but I think we all know that. Don't get me wrong, I'm still getting a Touch - it is still the best Squeezebox currently available, even if it doesn't fit my needs very well. ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
toby10 wrote: > Then buy a Transporter? The "non-mass market" SqueezeBox? :) Good point. And post #1 the OP lamented that no one is selling the TP. Maybe not in the OP's country, but it shouldn't be that hard to organize a purchase of a TP SE, which Logitech is currently selling in the US. He'll just need an intermediary. aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
Then buy a Transporter? The "non-mass market" SqueezeBox? :) The mass market helps keep your Touch at a reasonable price. Take away it's mass market appeal and your very limited market for such a device would quadruple the price for the same hardware. Just as the "mass market" wants USB and networking on their HDTV's. For those that don't want these features, just ignore them and concentrate on the features important to you (picture quality? price? number/type of inputs?). But even those that ignore those "added" features benefit from the broader appeal of those features by sharing in the devices lower unit cost. My father still laments that he can't buy a car with "just an AM radio". He doesn't listen to FM, nor does he have CD's or a digital music collection, nor does he use sat radio or HD radio. He just wants the type of radio with mechanical push buttons he had in his 1956 VW Bug. Every new car, the same complaint. But then every time I tell him "pops, I've told you, I can have my buddy retrofit an actual AM-only old school radio for $120, just say when" he won't cough up the dough. :) Don't even get my dad started on cell phones and how some of their functionality is different from his land line phone. UGH! Buy and enjoy your mass-market Touch, utilizing only the features & functions you desire, ignoring all those you don't want. In fact, if you have any trouble eliminating (hiding) all of the menu items you won't use, just ask in here. ;) toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
On 29 June 2012 10:20, toby10 wrote: >> . it's just that they don't need a Squeezebox for that. Heck, a >> decent A/V reciever or NAS / media harddrive will do that.. > > Ok, then why don't you simply use those for your streaming needs? > Maybe because those "solutions" are clunky, confusing, limited, not > user friendly? Exactly. But I'm not a good mass market example in the audio space, am I? I love my €2.000 hi-fi setup, many audiophiles will spend way more than that - and yet the notion of a dedicated stereo is ludicrous to (almost) all my friends and acquaintances. For them, a €400 all-in-one is the pinnacle of high-end. What I'm saying is, the mass market won't care about clunky interfaces if people don't know any better and it's fuctionality that came for "free" with some other device. Marketing could fix this, but there isn't any for the Squeezeboxes, is there? It's pretty much word-of-mouth at this point. That said, if I was interested (solely) in streaming from the internet, the receiver would do just fine. The clunkiness only starts when a local library comes into play. ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
toby10 wrote: > Ok, then why don't you simply use those for your streaming needs? Maybe > because those "solutions" are clunky, confusing, limited, not user > friendly? > I'll bet many of the reasons you prefer a SqueezeBox for your local > music also applies to why many prefer the same hardware for online > content. > This is why dedicated devices like Sonos & SqueezeBox have been so > successfull, they just do it better and offer more, in both local music > & online content. > This is why you previously chose and are now looking to buy again a > SqueezeBox. :) Yes it mixes and matches rather well :) Not many systems can have a playlist of local files and tunes from services like spotify/mog/bandcamp together and play this synchronised on all your players Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
fallenguru wrote: > . it's just that they don't need a Squeezebox for that. Heck, a > decent A/V reciever or NAS / media harddrive will do that.. > Ok, then why don't you simply use those for your streaming needs? Maybe because those "solutions" are clunky, confusing, limited, not user friendly? I'll bet many of the reasons you prefer a SqueezeBox for your local music also applies to why many prefer the same hardware for online content. This is why dedicated devices like Sonos & SqueezeBox have been so successfull, they just do it better and offer more, in both local music & online content. This is why you previously chose and are now looking to buy again a SqueezeBox. :) toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
On 28 June 2012 18:18, aubuti wrote: > In fact, you may have it turned around: manufacturers are increasingly > emphasizing online streaming services because that _is_ what > growing numbers of people want. The cynic in me says that manufacturers pretty much produce what they want and then market it until it sells. > I've since found the on-demand services like MOG to be great for > trying out music to see if it's worth buying the CD, [...] Yes, that's true. The quality is fine for trying something out and for mobile listening, but that's all I use mine for. It's not just the audio quality but the inconsistent, incomplete or just plain wrong tags as well. I realize that the streaming services might be all "the masses" want, it's just that they don't need a Squeezebox for that. Heck, a decent A/V reciever or NAS / media harddrive will do that. >From a mass market perspective Squeezeboxes are expensive, complicated and "one more box" - I'd much rather Logitech would stop trying to compete there and try to place them in the premium home stereo market ... On 28 June 2012 23:40, sebp wrote: > As a side note regarding privacy, when you install LMS, you're > prompted whether or not you accept it to send anonymous usage > statistics to Logitech. I'm pretty sure I wasn't asked anything, i'm using the Debian packages, though. Anyway, anonymous statistics don't bother me. As for Logitech not being the biggest problem, that's also true. But one has to draw the line somewhere. Maybe I'm just pissed off that one of the last areas of my life that was blissfully Internet- and tracking-free (listening to music) is going to be "invaded" as well - and without (to me) added value. Since the registration *can* be bypassed easily the problem is of a philosophical nature anyway. :-) ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
sebp wrote: > Look back at what chill said a page ago: his brand new Touch upgraded > its firmware before asking him for a mysb.com account. > It's not the reason it asks you for a mysb.com account. > > As a side note regarding privacy, when you install LMS, you're prompted > whether or not you accept it to send anonymous usage statistics to > Logitech. > I guess that's how Logitech could get such good figures on the > Squeezebox user base on different occasions (which system they run > SBS/LMS from, local music vs online services usage, and so on...). If you integrate your local LMS with mysqueezebox.com it is also exposed as a server setting that you can turn on and off as you like . Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
JohnSwenson wrote: > The reason you are asked to login when inittially starting the Touch is > to get the latest firmware, what is in it out of the box is almost > useless. Look back at what chill said a page ago: his brand new Touch upgraded its firmware before asking him for a mysb.com account. It's not the reason it asks you for a mysb.com account. As a side note regarding privacy, when you install LMS, you're prompted whether or not you accept it to send anonymous usage statistics to Logitech. I guess that's how Logitech could get such good figures on the Squeezebox user base on different occasions (which system they run SBS/LMS from, local music vs online services usage, and so on...). sebp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11768 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
Was going to say something then I googled project echelon and both safari and Facebook crashed on my iPad , where is my tinfoil.. Spooky Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
Just to reiterate what others have said, mysqueezebox.com is NOT repeat NOT used in anyway when you connect the Touch to your local server and play files located on that server. It will be used for certain online services as Erland mentioned. Going directly to internet radio stations will also not use mysqueezebox.com. The reason you are asked to login when inittially starting the Touch is to get the latest firmware, what is in it out of the box is almost useless. IF you are willing to load the firmware from an SD card or USB stick you never have to have the Touch connect to the internet, period. John S. JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
fallenguru wrote: > > > > Just register and save some time and struggling, you have obviously > > already registered on this forum so Logitech already have your > > e-mail so I don't understand the issue with giving them it once more. > > Mailing list, but yes. It isn't about the e-mail, though, not at all. > It's about being able to match a physical device (and its location) to > a person. They can track each (registered) Squeezebox sold, including > re-sales. They can black-list Squeezeboxes for whatever reason. They > can track what music you listen to, when and for how long. They know > what services you subscribe to. They can track what CDs you buy and > rip ... and sell all that data to ad companies. Sorry, but I do not > want that. > Of course the local server could log all this data and phone home, > too. It doesn't, though, and even if it did, without the registration > the data remains anonymous. Mysb.com on the other hand collects all > that and more during normal operation, as a matter of course. Do they > sell any data? Probably not. Won't they ever? Noone can say. > > All that, and I just don't like to be strong-armed into things. > I do understand your concerns, I'm just saying that you are tracked anyway, so a mysqueezebox.com registration won't make it much worse than it already is. I would be much more concerned about what kind of information Google, Microsoft, Apple and similar companies can store about your habits when accessing Internet with your computer, tablet or phone. Without knowing your habits, I'm pretty sure Logitech isn't your main problem regarding privacy, I'm also pretty sure their privacy policy is pretty clear about that they don't do most of the things you fear they do, especially not without explicitly asking you for permission first. If you only use mysqueezebox.com during initial setup, all they will be able to collect are which device you own, where you are located and connect that to your e-mail address. If you use a hotmail e-mail address it doesn't really say them much. You can even register separate mysqueezebox.com accounts with separate e-mails for each Squeezebox you own if you prefer to get really anonymous. However, it's your choice, as described previously in the thread it's possible to get around it if you prefer that, it's just requires some extra time and struggling so I would personally recommend you to accept the mysqueezebox.com registration and after the initial setup connect the Squeezebox to your local server and forget that mysqueezebox.com exist. erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
fallenguru wrote: > > > > They were trying to accommodate users who couldn't have/didn't > > want to have a computer/full server running. > > > > [...] > > > > Especially if one considers that probably the fastest growing part of > > the market doesn't have a local music collection, but instead listens > > to streaming services. > > That's probably true, and rather sad. I still think people should buy > products based upon what they want, not based upon market trends. Don't be sad. There isn't anything in either of those comments (the 2nd one was mine) suggesting people are buying something they don't want because they are following market trends. In fact, you may have it turned around: manufacturers are increasingly emphasizing online streaming services because that _is_ what growing numbers of people want. Of course the manufacturers are going to follow the money. Personally, I bought my SBs for the same reason, to stream my local music to anywhere in the house, or even outside. And that's still what they do best and the functionality hasn't take a back seat at all. But I've since found the on-demand services like MOG to be great for trying out music to see if it's worth buying the CD, to the point where I don't mind the costs, be they $5/mo or less privacy about what I listen to. Obviously ymmv. aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
I'm also starting to feel like an oldtimer . The actual work of ripping and properly tag music is to much for most people , they wan't music on tap :) So thats how it is, having local files at all is the minority thing Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
Mysb.com proxies a lot of encryption handshaking for the more paranoid services that would not allow such module sitting in the open source local server so it acts as middle man . Possibly a lot more could be moved to local servers as the whole tune-in indexing of internet radio ,but it is on mysb.com as it is now. Fyi almost all other internet radios do use a server backend of some kind but they just don't tell you, and you don't have a personal login where you can log in and manage some rudimentary settings. And certainly not a gruop of syncable players :) for example all machines with a reciva chip uses a service from reciva , and there are others to . And for the buggines , Eu server backend seems to finally cope with the load (that was a major pita for years ). Connection problems etc is often down to the same weakness as in a local server situation it only works as good as your network and server and add to that shoddy internet connections, and people try to use 3G usb sticks as "internet" ? And to kick in an open door ,they spend about 1/10 of dev resources they should have on the software it could be doing so much more and better , but we know that it's a given ,so nowadays I only whine when it reach a new bottom level of some kind. Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
fallenguru wrote: > On 27 June 2012 10:39, chill forums.slimdevices.com> wrote: > > I just tried this with a fresh-out-of-the-box Touch [...] the first > thing it > > did after I entered my wifi password was to prompt me to download > > the latest firmware. At this stage I had not told the unit anything > > about my local LMS setup, [...] > > > > I could not get the 'swipe right at the help screen' to work, but I > DID > > eventually manage to bypass the MySB setup using the remote. [...] > > It is indeed the right arrow - as soon as the MySB login screen > > comes up, press AND HOLD the right arrow, and it takes you to the > > home screen, from where you can set up your LMS IP address. > > Now *that* is great news, thank you! > Chris - a small correction. After I posted I realised I'd typed 'right arrow' when I meant 'left arrow' - it's the left arrow button that escapes the MySB registration process. I guess corrections don't necessarily come through when you follow this forum as a mail list. chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
On 27 June 2012 10:39, chill wrote: > I just tried this with a fresh-out-of-the-box Touch [...] the first thing it > did after I entered my wifi password was to prompt me to download > the latest firmware. At this stage I had not told the unit anything > about my local LMS setup, [...] > > I could not get the 'swipe right at the help screen' to work, but I DID > eventually manage to bypass the MySB setup using the remote. [...] > It is indeed the right arrow - as soon as the MySB login screen > comes up, press AND HOLD the right arrow, and it takes you to the > home screen, from where you can set up your LMS IP address. Now *that* is great news, thank you! To the people who don't get it. You don't have to, really, but I'll still bite. > I don't think they were trying to take away any functionality with > having the mysqueezebox.com option. The operative word being /option/. With my SB2 it was optional. I could set it up or not. Now it's presented as a neccessary part of setup, without an obvious or even documented way to bypass it. If there was a skip button I wouldn't be complaining (as loudly). > They were trying to accommodate users who couldn't have/didn't > want to have a computer/full server running. > > [...] > > Especially if one considers that probably the fastest growing part of > the market doesn't have a local music collection, but instead listens > to streaming services. That's probably true, and rather sad. I still think people should buy products based upon what they want, not based upon market trends. For that use case the Squeezeboxen are pretty much overkill, IMHO. The revolutionary thing about them was that they finally made music stored digitally on a computer available to the living room stereo / in other more natural listening situations (SBB, Radio). But hey, to each his own. I just don't like the classic functionality to take a back seat. The problem is, Squeezeboxes are *good* at streaming music over the LAN from a local server, they aren't very good at streaming from the 'net without one. SqueezeNetwork (what's now mysb.com) was a band-aid neccessary for the older Squeezeboxes, that were dumb audio terminals by design. Even back then people were constantly complaining about connection problems, drop outs and other network problems - and they still are, just read the Touch's worse Amazon reviews. That's what you get when you try to run software that was designed for the LAN over a WAN. Really, if I wanted something for streaming I'd buy something a lot cheaper with enough "brain" to handle everything onboard. The Touch certainly could do that, since it can even run (well, walk) a stripped-down server, but it still depends on mysb.com for stand-alone streaming. Why? There certainly isn't a technical reason ... > Just register and save some time and struggling, you have obviously > already registered on this forum so Logitech already have your > e-mail so I don't understand the issue with giving them it once more. Mailing list, but yes. It isn't about the e-mail, though, not at all. It's about being able to match a physical device (and its location) to a person. They can track each (registered) Squeezebox sold, including re-sales. They can black-list Squeezeboxes for whatever reason. They can track what music you listen to, when and for how long. They know what services you subscribe to. They can track what CDs you buy and rip ... and sell all that data to ad companies. Sorry, but I do not want that. Of course the local server could log all this data and phone home, too. It doesn't, though, and even if it did, without the registration the data remains anonymous. Mysb.com on the other hand collects all that and more during normal operation, as a matter of course. Do they sell any data? Probably not. Won't they ever? Noone can say. All that, and I just don't like to be strong-armed into things. Chris ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
rayman1701 wrote: > I don't think they were trying to take away any functionality with > having the mysqueezebox.com option. They were trying to accommodate > users who couldn't have/didn't want to have a computer/full server > running. So for those that just want to listen to internet radio, or > streaming services without a computer, they have that option along with > the stripped down version of the server for a USB drive for their own > music. +1 Especially if one considers that probably the fastest growing part of the market doesn't have a local music collection, but instead listens to streaming services. Hell, even Sean Adams once remarked in these forums that he had recently been listening mostly to Rhapsody instead of his own collection. aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
Just register and save some time and struggling, you have obviously already registered on this forum so Logitech already have your e-mail so I don't understand the issue with giving them it once more. erland's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3124 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
fallenguru wrote: > > > Now, I've never used Squeezenetwork / mysqueezebox.com and very much > don't > want to. Not everything needs to be closely integrated with the > Internet, > much less a proprietary service. There's privacy issues, security > issues, > reliability issues - all for functionality that I don't need and that > could > easily be done via server plugins. More than that, I see the service as > an > attempt to take back the openness that was another one of Slim Devices' > core concepts by moving as much functionality as possible out of the > server, and frankly that pisses me off. If I'm forced to register I > won't > buy a Touch, it's that simple. So, > > I don't think they were trying to take away any functionality with having the mysqueezebox.com option. They were trying to accommodate users who couldn't have/didn't want to have a computer/full server running. So for those that just want to listen to internet radio, or streaming services without a computer, they have that option along with the stripped down version of the server for a USB drive for their own music. I know before I had my permanent server it was nice to be able to listen to something when the computer was off, and I've never felt I was lacking any functions by having both options available. So I don't understand the hostility. rayman1701's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=41326 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
If you are that paranoid you could always use a disposable email for registration. Whether you ever use a MySB.com or always use MySB.com, if MySB.com goes away this will not effect your Touch's other functions. This is true using LMS server on a computer or the Touch's inbuilt server. toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
chill wrote: > Chris > > I just tried this with a fresh-out-of-the-box Touch (courtesy of Amazon > UK's lightening deal the other day). The first thing it asks you to do > is connect to your own network (wired or wireless), and in my case the > first thing it did after I entered my wifi password was to prompt me to > download the latest firmware. At this stage I had not told the unit > anything about my local LMS setup, so I'm pretty sure this happened > because the unit found Logitech's servers by itself. > > It then prompted me for my MySB credentials. I could not get the 'swipe > right at the help screen' to work, but I DID eventually manage to bypass > the MySB setup using the remote. After a few failed attempts I resorted > to stabbing at the buttons, so I wasn't sure which button did it in the > end! I did a factory reset to try and figure out which remote key it > was. It is the left arrow (on the four-way rocker) - as soon as the > MySB login screen comes up, press AND HOLD the left arrow, and it takes > you to the home screen, from where you can set up your LMS IP address. Depending on network if you choose "my music" it may automagically sugest your server as source Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
Chris I just tried this with a fresh-out-of-the-box Touch (courtesy of Amazon UK's lightening deal the other day). The first thing it asks you to do is connect to your own network (wired or wireless), and in my case the first thing it did after I entered my wifi password was to prompt me to download the latest firmware. At this stage I had not told the unit anything about my local LMS setup, so I'm pretty sure this happened because the unit found Logitech's servers by itself. It then prompted me for my MySB credentials. I could not get the 'swipe right at the help screen' to work, but I DID eventually manage to bypass the MySB setup using the remote. After a few failed attempts I resorted to stabbing at the buttons, so I wasn't sure which button did it in the end! I did a factory reset to try and figure out which remote key it was. It is indeed the right arrow - as soon as the MySB login screen comes up, press AND HOLD the right arrow, and it takes you to the home screen, from where you can set up your LMS IP address. chill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10839 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
On 26 June 2012 21:54, Mnyb wrote: > maybe someone has a detailed description on how to pass the nag > screen for mysb.com on setup ? It can be done yes . That would be nice. All I could google is that there may be a swipe gesture that works, possibly depending on firmware. Since I can't upgrade the firmware before setup is complete (or can I?), some more info would be nice. > But nothing is required after registration either , it will be just as > usable if never ever connected back to the service. I know, but it can still phone home and link the data gained to my e-mail and thus to me. Besides, I don't want to end up with a brick once mysb.com is taken offline. Chris ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
24/96 no problem on all outputs analog spdiff and optical ,more than 2 discrete channels no not that I'm aware off :-/ I want that to and hdmi would be the way . maybe someone has a detailed description on how to pass the nag screen for mysb.com on setup ? It can be done yes . But nothing is required after registration either , it will be just as usable if never ever connected back to the service. Never firmware can be downloaded via the server ,but player fw comes via mysb.com for all players , so without integration you migth have to put them there yourself . Or use an SD card , that is a very good idea as they are delivered with very old fw that is basically knackered , so step one is to upgrade the Touch. Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Oldtimer looking to upgrade to Touch withoutdowngrading to mysb.com
- No MySB.com account required to use any SqueezeBox player. Don't even need an internet connection. - Only missing online content absent MySB.com, which you don't want. - Firmware can be applied to Touch by either server (LMS on your computer or MySB.com online) or even just the Touch's SD card slot. - Touch mods are unrelated to MySB.com. toby10's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=12553 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95617 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
