RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Glenn, You seem to be getting a bit testy hereremember: sweetness and kindness! Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:06 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? The traffic laws have changed. YOU, MARLIN, CAN KEEP ALL 10 COMMANDEMNTS AND GO STRAIGHT TO HELL!!1 DID YOU HEAR ME?? THE LAW WILL NOT SAVE YOU. AND I SAY (I NOW THIS SOUND ROUGH) IF YOU ARE DEPENDING UPON THE LAW TO SAVE YOU, YOU ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL IF YOU DIE IN THAT CONDITION. Dear Glenn, I'd like to see you argue this before the judge in traffic court! Your honor, all the traffic laws have been fulfilled by Jesus so I don't have to obey them now.
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Glenn, You still dont understand that I am not seeking justification through obeying the Sabbath commandment. Do you think I am lying? Do you know my motives better than I do? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:22 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? I don't think you even obey the Sabbath commandment. If you study it carefully, I suspect you never observe it exactly. OF COURSE, I am probably wrong. :-) What is being overlooked here is that you can obey all 10 commandments and go to hell. For example, you can be innocent of not killing anyone in the Old Testament. If you hated your brother but didn't kill him you obeyed the commandment thou shalt not kill. The law is outward, but with me, the law is written inside on my heart. BUT WITH JESUS THE STAKES ARE MUCH HIGHER. If you hate your brother, you have broken the commandment thou shalt not kill as Jesus expanded upon it even if you didn't physically kill him. Glenn - I don't think you obey the Old Testament. Forgive me for being so bold, dear sister. :-) You might pick and choose a very minute part of the Old Testament. Yes, thats very true. I am just working on obeying all 10, rather than 9, commandments. Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
I know it. It seems the truth is hard to swallow. :-) OR MY ME, TO WATER DOWN THE TRUTH IN SMALL BITS AND PIECES IS HARD FOR ME TO DO. I spent a thousand years in religious bondage (a slight exaggeration) and it is so sickening to see people living in such a state. I guess you could say it turned me against religion. I read a book many years ago "How To Be A Christian Without Being Religious". It's probably out of print now, but it was great. Glenn, You seem to be getting a bit testy here—remember: sweetness and kindness! Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Dear Izzy, Far be it from me to think you are lying. I in no way think you are lying. However, I think you MIGHT be doing it without realizing it. But I am wrong, I'm sure. :-) WHY would you want to follow the law when Christ HIMSELF is the fullfillment of the law? Luke 24:27,44. Glenn, You still don’t understand that I am not seeking justification through obeying the Sabbath commandment. Do you think I am lying? Do you know my motives better than I do? Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] salvation?
Wow! You said it much better than I could. I am amazed that anyone could even possible disagree with this. Give me liberty or give me death. In other words, trying to impose the requirements of the law on those who are called to walk in the Spirit, and who are declared righteous in Christ. Galatians 4 said that the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, but now we are no longer under that schoolmaster because we have faith. In CH. 3, he chided them for being bewitched to think that they must now return to the law to be justified, thereby frustrating the grace of God. He summed it up by saying: if righteousness comes by the law, then Christ died in vain
Re: [TruthTalk] salvation?
Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.
Re: [TruthTalk] Here's an argument against musical instruments in worship
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Agreed, the question, "Does it bring spiritual edification and does it honor Christ" is vital. This is where the Holy Spirit comes in the direct us when the Bible is silent. The "argument from silence" is to be understood against making "silence" a prohibition and condemning others when the Bible does not do so. In opinions, liberty. WE ARE FREE TO DIFFER WHEN THE BIBLE IS SILENT. The Holy Spirit might prohibit me from doing something and not prohibit you from doing the same thing...AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T BRING REPROACH TO THE CAUSE OF CHRIST. Michael D: Fair enough. I was just pointing out that absence from the scripture does not necessarily give one a free ticket to everywhere, so to speak. Paul said it this way... All things are lawful to me but all things are not expedient... And again ... all things are lawful, but I will not be brought under the power of any... Those are signs of real Christian maturity. Michael D: Glenn and Izzy, I have a question? If it is not in the Bible gives one the opportunity to decide whether to or not to, yes. But should there not be other criteria in deciding what to do in those situations? For instance, does it bring spiritual edification and does it fit in with sound biblical principle? A good example is the practice of ...pleading the blood of Jesus Personally, I can't find any ground for doing that in the scripture, so I don't do it. My feeling is that it is of limited, if any use at all. What I understand the scripture to be saying is that the blood of Jesus has given us certain rights and priviledges, and absolute authority against the enemy. Using the authority and enforcing those rights and priviledges are the way I see the scripture teaching us to appropr iate the value of the blood of Jesus, but just pleading the blood doesn't seem to be accurate... What do you all think? ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Glenn, I think you are right on in this statement. Izzy I believe if it's not in the Bible then I am free to do it or not do it. Get a bigger mailbox -- choose a size that fits your needs.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
I've been out of town for awhile. Before I left, Glenn said he was stepping out of the discussion, so I thought I would find just a few posts from Marlin and Izzy, and maybe a few others when I got back. Instead, there were nearly 100 posts! It doesn't look like I'm going to have time to get too involved with this discussion unless you all back off a little and maybe only post once or twice a day each. Based upon my reading all of your posts, following is my position in a nutshell: 1. I do not believe that if the Bible is silent on something that Christians can then make whatever choice they want to and it is ok. We should still walk by the rule of love and liberty and do that which comes from love. In other words, a person can still sin (still walk outside love) in doing things that are not specifically forbidden by Scripture. Silence of Scripture should not be used as either a license for liberty or as a prohibition. Instead, believers should exercise judgment about what is right and what is wrong. 2. I do not believe that we can be justified by the law in any shape or form. The purpose of the law is to show that we are sinners in need of a Savior. Nevertheless, grace does not mean that we are free to transgress the law either. Therefore, the wise will study the law and understand that the law is spiritual and there is much meaning and understanding to be gained by it, and the truth is that we fulfill the law and keep it all when we walk in love. 3. I believe that we keep Passover when we see that Yeshua is the Passover lamb. Likewise, I believe we keep Sabbath when we enter into the rest (the Kingdom of God). 4. When considering the law, we need to understand covenants. The law was a covenant which is different from the covenant with Jesus Christ. I do not think it wise for believers, especially Gentiles, to seek better standing with God through keeping the Torah. Consider the following passage: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was c ontrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.' (Col 2:14) This passage and others clearly indicate that the written ordinances were nailed to the cross and taken out of the way. What this means to me is that whether you keep the ordinances of the Torah or not, it does not mean anything to God at all because he has established a new covenant upon better promises. What matters to God is that you walk in love toward Him and toward your neighbor. 5. I would support civil government making the following crimes capital crimes: homosexuality, adultery, and incorrigible children. Glenn was not rightly dividing the word when he said that the Torah called for execution in the case of a child cussing. The subject there was incorrigible and rebellious children. Yes, they should be executed. Our society would be better if we had a law like this. 6. Despite my thoughts that the law of the land should reflect the Torah with regard to subjects like the ones mentioned, I love mercy and forgiveness, and I would love and help those who transgress these laws just like I currently love and help murderers, thieves, etc. 7. One aspect of the law that would be interesting to discuss is the penalty for breaking the Sabbath, which would be death. Unfortunately, I don't have time to share my thoughts on this right now, but it seems to me to go right to the heart of the matter. God considered keeping the Sabbath very important. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida USA -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
I will not, in no uncertain terms (note double negative), allow any person to bind on me anything that is not bound in the Bible. Those who follow the "argument from silence" are doomed to believe anything. I have seen on on TT OVER AND OVER. Just as Americans have to fight for their physical freedom, I WILL FIGHT FOR MY SPIRITUAL FREEDOM. I WILL NOT GO BACK TO RELIGIOUS BONDAGE. Freedom in Christ is a hill I will die on. 1. I do not believe that if the Bible is silent on something that Christians can then make whatever choice they want to and it is ok. We should still walk by the rule of love and liberty and do that which comes from love. In other words, a person can still sin (still walk outside love) in doing things that are not specifically forbidden by Scripture. Silence of Scripture should not be used as either a license for "liberty" or as a prohibition. Instead, believers should exercise judgment about what is right and what is wrong.
RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Hi Glenn, I think I understand where you are coming from, as far as not being under bondage. You apparently were beaten down by legalistic attitudes in the past, and rightfully are wiser and more cautious because of it. You are right that we are free from that! However, in keeping the Sabbath, (which by the way, I have never insisted that YOU must do), I do not feel at all under bondageno more than keeping the other commandments. I have experienced Sabbath Keeping as a wonderful Gift from God! (This came as quite a surprise to me, when I first began the practice simply out of an inner tugging to obey on this.) Imagine having one whole day/week to do nothing but spend with the Lord. No work! No pressures! No nothing but Jesus and His word. It is not only not a burden; I look forward to this blessed time each week. And, in the process, I feel closer to Him because of our precious time together; and because I know that I have disciplined myself to obey Him. Preparing for the Sabbath on Friday, rushing around at the last minute to be ready, is like a little picture of the Bride preparing for her Bridegroom. The anticipation! I cant express the holiness of it except to ask you to close your eyes and remember how it feels when you are outside all alone after a big snowstorm: Everything is hushed, white, and awe-inspiring. The air is so clean and still. You dont want to disturb a thing; just take it all in. That is what I mean by the holiness of the Sabbath; from the moment you light the candles and pray at sunset on Friday, clear through the next 24 hours. A day that used to be mine is now HIS. His presence is what makes it holy. By honoring the Sabbath you make space for Him; and He does come in. What a joy! Izzy PS (I hope David does not think that we were agreeing that silence on a matter in the Bible is an excuse for sin or lack of wisdom and discernment!) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? I will not, in no uncertain terms (note double negative), allow any person to bind on me anything that is not bound in the Bible. Those who follow the argument from silence are doomed to believe anything. I have seen on on TT OVER AND OVER. Just as Americans have to fight for their physical freedom, I WILL FIGHT FOR MY SPIRITUAL FREEDOM. I WILL NOT GO BACK TO RELIGIOUS BONDAGE. Freedom in Christ is a hill I will die on. 1. I do not believe that if the Bible is silent on something that Christians can then make whatever choice they want to and it is ok. We should still walk by the rule of love and liberty and do that which comes from love. In other words, a person can still sin (still walk outside love) in doing things that are not specifically forbidden by Scripture. Silence of Scripture should not be used as either a license for liberty or as a prohibition. Instead, believers should exercise judgment about what is right and what is wrong.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
Izzy, I understand what you are saying now. I have taken time like this. I do take time like this in the future. Time to be alone with God. I didn't see that as observing the Sabbath. I don't do it on any particular day or time schedule. I have done it days at a time and only an hour or 5 at a time. I have actually had experiences that people would say I am lying about. My best time alone with God is late late at night. Hi Glenn, I think I understand where you are coming from, as far as not being under bondage. You apparently were beaten down by legalistic attitudes in the past, and rightfully are wiser and more cautious because of it. You are right that we are free from that! However, in keeping the Sabbath, (which by the way, I have never insisted that YOU must do), I do not feel at all under bondage—no more than keeping the other commandments. I have experienced Sabbath Keeping as a wonderful Gift from God! (This came as quite a surprise to me, when I first began the practice simply out of an inner tugging to obey on this.) Imagine having one whole day/week to do nothing but spend with the Lord. No work! No pressures! No nothing but Jesus and His word. It is not only not a burden; I look forward to this blessed time each week. And, in the process, I feel closer to Him because of our precious time together; and because I know that I have disciplined myself to obey Him. Preparing for the Sabbath on Friday, rushing around at the last minute to be ready, is like a little picture of the Bride preparing for her Bridegroom. The anticipation! I can’t express the holiness of it except to ask you to close your eyes and remember how it feels when you are outside all alone after a big snowstorm: Everything is hushed, white, and awe-inspiring. The air is so clean and still. You don’t want to disturb a thing; just take it all in. That is what I mean by the holiness of the Sabbath; from the moment you light the candles and pray at sunset on Friday, clear through the next 24 hours. A day that used to be mine is now HIS. His presence is what makes it holy. By honoring the Sabbath you make space for Him; and He does come in. What a joy! Izzy PS (I hope David does not think that we were agreeing that silence on a matter in the Bible is an excuse for sin or lack of wisdom and discernment!) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 6:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments? I will not, in no uncertain terms (note double negative), allow any person to bind on me anything that is not bound in the Bible. Those who follow the "argument from silence" are doomed to believe anything. I have seen on on TT OVER AND OVER. Just as Americans have to fight for their physical freedom, I WILL FIGHT FOR MY SPIRITUAL FREEDOM. I WILL NOT GO BACK TO RELIGIOUS BONDAGE. Freedom in Christ is a hill I will die on. 1. I do not believe that if the Bible is silent on something that Christians can then make whatever choice they want to and it is ok. We should still walk by the rule of love and liberty and do that which comes from love. In other words, a person can still sin (still walk outside love) in doing things that are not specifically forbidden by Scripture. Silence of Scripture should not be used as either a license for "liberty" or as a prohibition. Instead, believers should exercise judgment about what is right and what is wrong.
RE: [TruthTalk] Legalism and Old Testament Law Keeping
Glenn, Did you read the passages that David Miller recommended from John Wesley? http://gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/perfect.html I have been reading them, and plan to read them together with my Beloved Sweetie. Here is one excerpt: The sea is an excellent figure of the fullness of God, and that of the blessed Spirit. For as the rivers all return into the sea; so the bodies, the souls, and the good works of the righteous, return into God, to live there in his eternal repose. The bottom of the soul may be in repose, even while we are in many outward troubles; just as the bottom of the sea is calm, while the surface is strongly agitated. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Legalism and Old Testament Law Keeping What Do I Actually Love When I Love God? Japanese philosopher Kirtaro Nishida said that religion is a raft that sails on the endless sea. If so, then we must be vigilant that we don't allow our preoccupation with the business on the raft to displace God's business, which is love. I like Meister Eckhart's prayer. I pray God to rid me of god, which is a prayer to the ocean of God to rid us of the gods of the raft.
Re: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
I have experienced Sabbath Keeping as a wonderful Gift from God! So do we! --Marlin - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2002 9:29 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Only 9 of the 10 commandments?
