[TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Wm. Taylor wrote: . May I say something to you, David? I would like to say it to Izzy and Judy as well. I know you are my brother and sisters. I do not doubt but what we worship the same Savior. I admire your zeal and I admire your desire to live in holiness apart from sin. My friends, this is my desire, too. May I say something more to you? I do not like the quickness with which you condemn your brothers and sisters. jt: Hold it Bill, I don't believe I have condemned anyone on TT and this includes you but I have very recently been the victim of accusation and a sharp tongue here. I figure some people still don't understand the difference between discussing ideas and attacking people. The problem, as I see it, with your theology is that it forces you to expel from your midst anyone who does not read into the Scriptures your understanding of God's words. If perfection is where you are, and if "genuine" believers must be perfect, then anyone who disagrees with you must be imperfect and therefore reprobate. Is that too harsh, too simplistic? jt: I don't know if DavidM's belief is different to mine. I believe in sanctification which some of you may call "perfection" but believing this is God's will for His Church and being there are two different things. We are all at different stages of goofiness working out "our own salvation with fear and trembling" I hope so, but it seems that simple to me, and I do get that impression, especially from you, David, as well as from Judy. Do you want to be perceived this way?... jt: You wouldn't be the first person to get a wrong impression Bill. Remember we have an adversary. I've missed a lot of what has gone on between you and DavidM because when I see all the Greek I turn off and tune out (not being literate in that language); but I have disagreed with DavidM in the past and have not found him to be disagreeable; also to my knowledge he has never kicked anyone off the list because they disagreed with him. Can't we love one another in our imperfection, and at the same time press on? judyt
[TruthTalk] Christian Children
From: "Marlin Halverson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> jt: I've never stated that children could not be converted John, what I am saying is that child prophets and child prodigies are out of character for the ministry of God's Spirit in the Church. Children are not responsible for their own spiritual life under Judaism until they are at least 13yrs old and even Jesus who had a full measure of God's Spirit did nothing publicly before the age of 30yrs. When did things change? marlin: No change at all. Judaism is religion and tradition, not the word of God. jt: I meant Israel and they were God's Old Covenant Church; they are the ones who preserved God's Word for our present generation and yes I was aware of Samuel but he is the exception; God was upset and not speaking to Eli. Even so, we have no record that Samuel was a boy prodigy. Did he become the prophet before he was of age that you know of? The Word of God tells of Samuel long before Judaism developed. There were other children inspired of God in the scripture, even from the womb. Joseph, Samson, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, Jesus. jt: OK Joseph had a dream and his brothers tried to kill him over it. Still he waited a long time and was sorely tested before it came to fruition.The parents of Samson, John the Baptist, and Jesus were warned ahead of time that these children would serve God but none of them to my knowledge were sent out as a child prodigy. Do you know of one who was? Even in the passages below Samuel as a child did not know who was speaking to him. Eli had to teach him. judyt 1SA 1:24 ¶ And when she had weaned him, she took him up with her, with three bullocks, and one ephah of flour, and a bottle of wine, and brought him unto the house of the LORD in Shiloh: and the child [was] young. 1SA 3:9 Therefore Eli said unto Samuel, Go, lie down: and it shall be, if he call thee, that thou shalt say, Speak, LORD; for thy servant heareth. So Samuel went and lay down in his place.1SA 3:10 And the LORD came, and stood, and called as at other times, Samuel, Samuel. Then Samuel answered, Speak; for thy servant heareth.1SA 3:11 ¶ And the LORD said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
IF, using a brush so broad as to be akin to a spray gun, we were to say that the operative word from Adam through Israel is DISOBEDIENCE and, the operative word in the Incarnate Israelite, Jesus is OBEDIENCE then (I'd appreciate others reframing the following question in as many ways as possible) is the life of the believer today to be characterized as a mixture of both? May the believer's life, this side of eternity, ever arrive at ONLY THE LATTER? Lance - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: April 11, 2004 20:52 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection > Lance wrote: > > Please tell us with as much clarity and precision as > > is possible the THIS you're believing. > > ... don't quote scripture. > > I'll try to take a few minutes to explain my basic understanding, but I > sure hope that this does not sound like I am trying to be divisive. > Please consider what I am about to say as a rough draft of my > perspective and not something which I walk around thinking about all the > time. I have been considering your request from the first time you > shared it, and a brother at church today shared a message which > stimulated me to present it to you in the following fashion. > > I have observed Christians approach the problem of sin at two different > levels. > > First there are those who upon recognizing the problem of sin, see Jesus > as the answer out of the dreaded dilemma of facing God on judgment day. > They recognize that their own personal sin has separated them from God, > but they also have learned and believe that Jesus paid the price for > their sin so that they will inherit eternal life despite their sin. > Then when they sin, their conscience condemns them, but they see this > condemnation as being a lie from the devil because they reason that the > blood of Jesus has covered their sin. They might describe this > situation in the following way: "the devil tries to point to what I did > last week and convince me that I'm no good, but I tell him he is a liar > and that Jesus has paid the price and that one day Jesus will return and > change me and then at that time I will be a new creature and never walk > this way again." In other words, they look at their continued defeat in > the area of morality as something that will always continue until the > second coming of Christ. They consider any sense of condemnation for > their sin as a lie of Satan in their life. They do not deal with the > sin, but have a hope that one day Jesus will return and make them new > creatures which will not have the same temptations as they have now. > They look at the solution of having victory over sin as being the > removal of the temptation of sin. > > It seems to me that this approach perpetuates what historians have > called the Messiah complex. It is the idea that when Messiah comes, all > things will be restored. It continues to look to a future when > restoration is done, and it does not see moral restoration as something > that has already happened with Christ's first coming. > > The second way that some Christians approach sin is to see that Christ > came not only to forgive sin, but to break the power of sin in our life. > This approach perceives that the way to holiness has been made right > now, and that we do not need to wait until Christ returns the second > time in order to be made free from sin. While sin continues to be ever > present in the sense that we will always be tempted while abiding in > these corruptible bodies, we can live a life of victory over those > temptations in every situation. > > The way the second approach to sin is dealt with is very different than > the first approach. The condemnation and guilt that is associated with > sin is not looked upon as a lie of the devil, but as a direct > consequence of the sin. If I were to sin today, I fully expect to > experience guilt from sin, even though Jesus has died for me and atoned > for my sin. I could say a lot more here about the atonement and its > effect on past, present and future sins, but I think it best to skip > that for right now. My point right now is that I deal with sin in a > most serious way. The idea of experiencing guilt and a darkening of the > conscience and a dimming of the communion and fellowship with the Father > is a huge motivation for me not to sin again. I deal with sin by hating > it and forsaking it, not by some knowledge that when Jesus comes again > he will transform me and make a way for me to have victory over sin. I > see victory over sin as a reality for right now, because of Jesus > Christ. I can be a New Creature right now. I don't have to wait for > it. It is a reality right now. I am greatly encouraged and blessed to > hear this news. It is the GOOD NEWS, the BEST NEWS that I have ever > heard in my whole life. More importantly, this good news has a reality > when it is believed, and it is experienced in a most p
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
JT asks > Can't we love one another in our imperfection, and at the same time press on? Yes, Judy, I believe we can. I would like that very much in fact. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 1:08 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Wm. Taylor wrote: . May I say something to you, David? I would like to say it to Izzy and Judy as well. I know you are my brother and sisters. I do not doubt but what we worship the same Savior. I admire your zeal and I admire your desire to live in holiness apart from sin. My friends, this is my desire, too. May I say something more to you? I do not like the quickness with which you condemn your brothers and sisters. jt: Hold it Bill, I don't believe I have condemned anyone on TT and this includes you but I have very recently been the victim of accusation and a sharp tongue here. I figure some people still don't understand the difference between discussing ideas and attacking people. The problem, as I see it, with your theology is that it forces you to expel from your midst anyone who does not read into the Scriptures your understanding of God's words. If perfection is where you are, and if "genuine" believers must be perfect, then anyone who disagrees with you must be imperfect and therefore reprobate. Is that too harsh, too simplistic? jt: I don't know if DavidM's belief is different to mine. I believe in sanctification which some of you may call "perfection" but believing this is God's will for His Church and being there are two different things. We are all at different stages of goofiness working out "our own salvation with fear and trembling" I hope so, but it seems that simple to me, and I do get that impression, especially from you, David, as well as from Judy. Do you want to be perceived this way?... jt: You wouldn't be the first person to get a wrong impression Bill. Remember we have an adversary. I've missed a lot of what has gone on between you and DavidM because when I see all the Greek I turn off and tune out (not being literate in that language); but I have disagreed with DavidM in the past and have not found him to be disagreeable; also to my knowledge he has never kicked anyone off the list because they disagreed with him. Can't we love one another in our imperfection, and at the same time press on? judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Judy do you remember saying this > Newbigin must be an unbeliever also because the mind is not the home of faith. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 1:08 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Wm. Taylor wrote: . May I say something to you, David? I would like to say it to Izzy and Judy as well. I know you are my brother and sisters. I do not doubt but what we worship the same Savior. I admire your zeal and I admire your desire to live in holiness apart from sin. My friends, this is my desire, too. May I say something more to you? I do not like the quickness with which you condemn your brothers and sisters. jt: Hold it Bill, I don't believe I have condemned anyone on TT and this includes you but I have very recently been the victim of accusation and a sharp tongue here. I figure some people still don't understand the difference between discussing ideas and attacking people. The problem, as I see it, with your theology is that it forces you to expel from your midst anyone who does not read into the Scriptures your understanding of God's words. If perfection is where you are, and if "genuine" believers must be perfect, then anyone who disagrees with you must be imperfect and therefore reprobate. Is that too harsh, too simplistic? jt: I don't know if DavidM's belief is different to mine. I believe in sanctification which some of you may call "perfection" but believing this is God's will for His Church and being there are two different things. We are all at different stages of goofiness working out "our own salvation with fear and trembling" I hope so, but it seems that simple to me, and I do get that impression, especially from you, David, as well as from Judy. Do you want to be perceived this way?... jt: You wouldn't be the first person to get a wrong impression Bill. Remember we have an adversary. I've missed a lot of what has gone on between you and DavidM because when I see all the Greek I turn off and tune out (not being literate in that language); but I have disagreed with DavidM in the past and have not found him to be disagreeable; also to my knowledge he has never kicked anyone off the list because they disagreed with him. Can't we love one another in our imperfection, and at the same time press on? judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Bill this is simply supburb! A couple of "piddly" things: Do you observe a distinction between finding the meaning in/through God's Word(s)? I've just dropped one name from the list of those who may have originated the _expression_ "Brevity is the soul of wit." Lighten up a little, Bill. Remember that all the others on this site on trapped in a box of their own making save you and I. I am however now wondering about even you. Lance - Original Message - From: Wm. Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 12, 2004 01:41 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection To all TTers, My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. Before judging me too hastily I ask that you first hear me out. I would like to ask that you please read this post in its entirety. It will be long but I want you to know what I am doing and why I am doing it. Hear me out and judge me later, if that is your desire. But please do not judge me before knowing my motives -- Is that too much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about me, he does not care about us, he cares only about himself. Lance has asked that David and I extend the context of this Christian Perfection discussion beyond "word & tense to God Himself." I will be happy to do that, but before I do I have some parting words concerning the Greek text -- make that texts. At the heart of this discussion is not an ethical problem on my behalf. At the heart of this discussion is a textual variant. One text, the TR, says eauton; another text, the UBS, says auton. The distinction between these two words may seem so slight as to be insignificant. Nevertheless this variant exits, and it exists for a reason. What is that reason? The question I would like you to consider is this: Is the variant there because of an ethical problem on the side of one or the other of these two texts? Is there a lack of integrity at play here on the part of the copyists? Did one side or the other intentionally distort the meaning of the text? What causes textual variations anyway? Is it always an ethical problem, a problem of integrity? I have been accused of an ethical problem. My integrity has been called into question. I would like to suggest to the contrary that perhaps the "problem" if one exists, is not a problem of our, the scribes and myself, lack of moral perfection, which we would have if we would but submit to the Lord; the problem is one of real human limitations -- no ethical underhandedness, no lack of integrity, just us being human as best as we can in our pursuit of truth under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. When David asked me to consider I John 5.18 in the context of our Gnostic discussion, he quoted from the King James Version. The King James is a translation from the Textus Receptus -- the Received Text or TR. At the heart of this verse are the words "but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself" (in King James language) or "alla ho gennatheis ek tou theou tarei eauton" (from the TR Greek itself). Rather than re-introduce the controversy over the various manuscripts and the textual variants between them, and knowing the futility of doing so, I told David upfront that this verse has to be translated in a way that makes Jesus Christ the one who keeps himself. The UBS text is worded in a way which does this. All of the translations derived from the UBS are translated in a way which does this; for example, the NASB reads "but He who was born of God keeps him." It says this because the UBS states "alla ho gennatheis ek tou theou tarei auton." At the heart of this passage is an attempt from one side or the other to make Jesus Christ the one who keeps himself and, by inference, others "from the wicked one." How do textual variants find their way into God's inspired Word? They find their way by way of human limitation. It is wrong for limited human beings to be so quick to judge the scribes as deviant. These guys are trying to make sense of the Scriptures, just like you are and I am. They knew like I do that only Jesus Christ can keep us from the wicked one. In the Old Testament we read that one angel killed 185,000 men. The zeal of the Lord of hosts saw to it. Yahweh sent one angel to do the work of an entire army (see II Kings 19.31-35; cf. Isa 37.32-36). Who among us is strong enough to protect him- or herself from the mightiest of all angels, evil and wicked as we know he is? The scribes knew this story. They knew what happened to Peter when only a portion of our Lord's cover was removed from upon him. The scribes did not desire to leave this question open -- if indeed the UBS is the text which introduced the variant! Did you get that? Perhaps the variant was introduced by the scribes who copied the TR. Maybe they made a mistake. Maybe t
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Thank you, Lance -- I think }:>) Yes, you are right. It is probably better to lighten up. Am I over sensitive? I do not know how to answer that. I am me. I am passionate; I'm committed. Sometimes I hurt. I'm me. And what do mean that I'm off the brevity list. This thing was a short book even before condensing it! Bravo! Bill - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 3:32 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Bill this is simply supburb! A couple of "piddly" things: Do you observe a distinction between finding the meaning in/through God's Word(s)? I've just dropped one name from the list of those who may have originated the _expression_ "Brevity is the soul of wit." Lighten up a little, Bill. Remember that all the others on this site on trapped in a box of their own making save you and I. I am however now wondering about even you. Lance - Original Message - From: Wm. Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 12, 2004 01:41 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection To all TTers, My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. Before judging me too hastily I ask that you first hear me out. I would like to ask that you please read this post in its entirety. It will be long but I want you to know what I am doing and why I am doing it. Hear me out and judge me later, if that is your desire. But please do not judge me before knowing my motives -- Is that too much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about me, he does not care about us, he cares only about himself. Lance has asked that David and I extend the context of this Christian Perfection discussion beyond "word & tense to God Himself." I will be happy to do that, but before I do I have some parting words concerning the Greek text -- make that texts. At the heart of this discussion is not an ethical problem on my behalf. At the heart of this discussion is a textual variant. One text, the TR, says eauton; another text, the UBS, says auton. The distinction between these two words may seem so slight as to be insignificant. Nevertheless this variant exits, and it exists for a reason. What is that reason? The question I would like you to consider is this: Is the variant there because of an ethical problem on the side of one or the other of these two texts? Is there a lack of integrity at play here on the part of the copyists? Did one side or the other intentionally distort the meaning of the text? What causes textual variations anyway? Is it always an ethical problem, a problem of integrity? I have been accused of an ethical problem. My integrity has been called into question. I would like to suggest to the contrary that perhaps the "problem" if one exists, is not a problem of our, the scribes and myself, lack of moral perfection, which we would have if we would but submit to the Lord; the problem is one of real human limitations -- no ethical underhandedness, no lack of integrity, just us being human as best as we can in our pursuit of truth under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. When David asked me to consider I John 5.18 in the context of our Gnostic discussion, he quoted from the King James Version. The King James is a translation from the Textus Receptus -- the Received Text or TR. At the heart of this verse are the words "but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself" (in King James language) or "alla ho gennatheis ek tou theou tarei eauton" (from the TR Greek itself). Rather than re-introduce the controversy over the various manuscripts and the textual variants between them, and knowing the futility of doing so, I told David upfront that this verse has to be translated in a way that makes Jesus Christ the one who keeps himself. The UBS text is worded in a way which does this. All of the translations derived from the UBS are translated in a way which does this; for example, the NASB reads "but He who was born of God keeps him." It says this because the UBS states "alla ho gennatheis ek tou theou tarei auton." At the heart of this passage is an attempt from one side or the other to make Jesus Christ the one who keeps himself and, by inference, others "from the wicked one." How do textual variants find their way into God's inspired Word? They find their way by way of human limitation. It is wrong for limited human beings to be so quick to judge the scribes as deviant. These guys are trying to make sense of the Scriptures, just like you are and I am. They knew like I do that only Jesus Christ can keep us from the wicked one. In the Old Testament we read that one angel k
RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Bill, Funny, I thought the discussion between you and David was about Greek translations, but now I realize it was really all about you. Guess that shows what I know. You have no idea how shocking and hurtful your words, below, are. I am literally crying for David Miller right now because I know how hurt he will be to read this. I think TT is too much for me to take, Izzy My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. Before judging me too hastily But please do not judge me before knowing my motives -- Is that too much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about me, he does not care about us, he cares only about himself. I have been accused of an ethical problem. My integrity has been called into question. I am tired of hearing Christians condemning Christians. I suggested to David that perhaps the better way to go in this discussion would be to agree to disagree and show the world that we can love each other in spite of our own limitations. He thought better of that -- but Christians can do this, you know. May I say something to you, David? I would like to say it to Izzy and Judy as well. I do not like the quickness with which you condemn your brothers and sisters. David, please do not be so rude. Bill - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 9:24 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection > Bill wrote: > > I bring my knowledge of these truths from the > > Gospels of Christ with me to my translation of > > John's epistle. I do not apologize for that. > > Yes, it does seem to me that you let your theology force itself upon the > passage. We all bring such with us, but we should try to let the > passage speak for itself. I certainly do not disagree with the theology > you bring, but when it blinds you to other issues being brought forth, > that is troublesome to me. > > Bill wrote: > > And so you or any Greek scholar are welcome > > to disagree with my rendering of these Greek > > words. I ask only that you be honest enough > > to consider what you are bringing with you > > when you go to the same text and begin > > to translate. > > I think I am well aware of what I bring with me, but if not, it seems > like nobody will step up to the plate and tell me about it. Seems like > too many think it too rude to tell David Miller that he is wrong about > this and why he is wrong. > > Look, you never addressed my main question. I never objected to word > order at all, but you gave a long lecture about how word order does not > matter. Fine. No problem there. My problem was with how you perceived > "pas" to be modifying "oidamen." I have been taught and have observed > in the Greek Bible that adjectives always agree in case, gender, and > number with the words they modify. So if this word was being used to > modify "oidamen" as you say, it should be plural instead of singular. > In other words, the word would have been rendered "pantes" instead of > "pas." Therefore, I reject your translation on this basis. If you say > fine, and leave it at that, then I guess life goes on. However, I think > a truly honest discussion would consider this point and attempt to help > me understand my error, or you would recognize that you have brought too > much of your theology into play here and are missing the aspect that > John is bringing out here, and that is how Christ becomes incarnated > within us, how we partake of his divine nature, and how it finds > _expression_ through us. We truly receive power to become sons of God, as > John mentions in his gospel. > > I also asked you to show some passages which use "pas" as a modifier in > the way that you suggest, but your response offered none. This is a > very common word, used more than 1200 times. I have checked many and I > can't find any. I can only assume from your silence that you have never > seen it either. I have brought to you other passages that have used > "pas" in connection "ho" and seems to translate it well as "whosoever." > No comment from you about that. > > In this last post, you seem to want to force "pas" as a modifier and do > not realize that adjectives often stand alone. Mounce terms this being > either "adjectivally" or "substantivally." Obviously I take the > position that "pas" is used substantivally here, but you seem to see no > option for that. > > I presented the interlinears, hoping for you to provide your own, and > perhaps from there lead to a translation that is appreciative of the > words used in the text. I was a little confused by your reference to > "transliteration" when it seemed that you perhaps meant the interlinear > translation. You seemed to agree with the in
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Izzy:Please don't allow TT to become "too much" for you. I'd miss your tender heart in the mix. This won't lead to anyone being burned at the stake! A steak might be in order but, the kind over which differences might be disscussed and hugs might follow. Blessings, Lance - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 12, 2004 07:26 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Bill, Funny, I thought the discussion between you and David was about Greek translations, but now I realize it was really all about you. Guess that shows what I know. You have no idea how shocking and hurtful your words, below, are. I am literally crying for David Miller right now because I know how hurt he will be to read this. I think TT is too much for me to take, Izzy My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. Before judging me too hastily But please do not judge me before knowing my motives -- Is that too much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about me, he does not care about us, he cares only about himself. I have been accused of an ethical problem. My integrity has been called into question. I am tired of hearing Christians condemning Christians. I suggested to David that perhaps the better way to go in this discussion would be to agree to disagree and show the world that we can love each other in spite of our own limitations. He thought better of that -- but Christians can do this, you know. May I say something to you, David? I would like to say it to Izzy and Judy as well. I do not like the quickness with which you condemn your brothers and sisters. David, please do not be so rude. Bill - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 9:24 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection > Bill wrote:> > I bring my knowledge of these truths from the > > Gospels of Christ with me to my translation of > > John's epistle. I do not apologize for that. > > Yes, it does seem to me that you let your theology force itself upon the> passage. We all bring such with us, but we should try to let the> passage speak for itself. I certainly do not disagree with the theology> you bring, but when it blinds you to other issues being brought forth,> that is troublesome to me.> > Bill wrote:> > And so you or any Greek scholar are welcome > > to disagree with my rendering of these Greek > > words. I ask only that you be honest enough > > to consider what you are bringing with you > > when you go to the same text and begin > > to translate.> > I think I am well aware of what I bring with me, but if not, it seems> like nobody will step up to the plate and tell me about it. Seems like> too many think it too rude to tell David Miller that he is wrong about> this and why he is wrong.> > Look, you never addressed my main question. I never objected to word> order at all, but you gave a long lecture about how word order does not> matter. Fine. No problem there. My problem was with how you perceived> "pas" to be modifying "oidamen." I have been taught and have observed> in the Greek Bible that adjectives always agree in case, gender, and> number with the words they modify. So if this word was being used to> modify "oidamen" as you say, it should be plural instead of singular.> In other words, the word would have been rendered "pantes" instead of> "pas." Therefore, I reject your translation on this basis. If you say> fine, and leave it at that, then I guess life goes on. However, I think> a truly honest discussion would consider this point and attempt to help> me understand my error, or you would recognize that you have brought too> much of your theology into play here and are missing the aspect that> John is bringing out here, and that is how Christ becomes incarnated> within us, how we partake of his divine nature, and how it finds> _expression_ through us. We truly receive power to become sons of God, as> John mentions in his gospel. > > I also asked you to show some passages which use "pas" as a modifier in> the way that you suggest, but your response offered none. This is a> very common word, used more than 1200 times. I have checked many and I> can't find any. I can only assume from your silence that you have never> seen it either. I have brought to you other passages that have used> "pas" in connection "ho" and seems to translate it well as "whosoever."> No comment from you about that. > > In this last post, you se
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Izzy, to the measure that I have hurt you or anyone, that was not my intent. To whatever extent that I was irrational or missed the mark, please forgive me. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 5:26 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Bill, Funny, I thought the discussion between you and David was about Greek translations, but now I realize it was really all about you. Guess that shows what I know. You have no idea how shocking and hurtful your words, below, are. I am literally crying for David Miller right now because I know how hurt he will be to read this. I think TT is too much for me to take, Izzy My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. Before judging me too hastily But please do not judge me before knowing my motives -- Is that too much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about me, he does not care about us, he cares only about himself. I have been accused of an ethical problem. My integrity has been called into question. I am tired of hearing Christians condemning Christians. I suggested to David that perhaps the better way to go in this discussion would be to agree to disagree and show the world that we can love each other in spite of our own limitations. He thought better of that -- but Christians can do this, you know. May I say something to you, David? I would like to say it to Izzy and Judy as well. I do not like the quickness with which you condemn your brothers and sisters. David, please do not be so rude. Bill - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 9:24 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection > Bill wrote:> > I bring my knowledge of these truths from the > > Gospels of Christ with me to my translation of > > John's epistle. I do not apologize for that. > > Yes, it does seem to me that you let your theology force itself upon the> passage. We all bring such with us, but we should try to let the> passage speak for itself. I certainly do not disagree with the theology> you bring, but when it blinds you to other issues being brought forth,> that is troublesome to me.> > Bill wrote:> > And so you or any Greek scholar are welcome > > to disagree with my rendering of these Greek > > words. I ask only that you be honest enough > > to consider what you are bringing with you > > when you go to the same text and begin > > to translate.> > I think I am well aware of what I bring with me, but if not, it seems> like nobody will step up to the plate and tell me about it. Seems like> too many think it too rude to tell David Miller that he is wrong about> this and why he is wrong.> > Look, you never addressed my main question. I never objected to word> order at all, but you gave a long lecture about how word order does not> matter. Fine. No problem there. My problem was with how you perceived> "pas" to be modifying "oidamen." I have been taught and have observed> in the Greek Bible that adjectives always agree in case, gender, and> number with the words they modify. So if this word was being used to> modify "oidamen" as you say, it should be plural instead of singular.> In other words, the word would have been rendered "pantes" instead of> "pas." Therefore, I reject your translation on this basis. If you say> fine, and leave it at that, then I guess life goes on. However, I think> a truly honest discussion would consider this point and attempt to help> me understand my error, or you would recognize that you have brought too> much of your theology into play here and are missing the aspect that> John is bringing out here, and that is how Christ becomes incarnated> within us, how we partake of his divine nature, and how it finds> _expression_ through us. We truly receive power to become sons of God, as> John mentions in his gospel. > > I also asked you to show some passages which use "pas" as a modifier in> the way that you suggest, but your response offered none. This is a> very common word, used more than 1200 times. I have checked many and I> can't find any. I can only assume from your silence that you have never> seen it either. I have brought to you other passages that have used> "pas" in connection "ho" and seems to translate it well as "whosoever."> No comment from you about that. > > In this last post, you seem to want to force "pas" as a modifier and do> not realize that adjectives often stand alone.
[TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
jt: Yes Bill. I wrote that because faith is an attribute of the heart and this fact is all through scripture; a heart of faith is contrasted to an evil heart of unbelief - but I've forgotten, who is Newbigin? judyt From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy do you remember saying this > Newbigin must be an unbeliever also because the mind is not the home of faith. From: Judy Taylor Wm. Taylor wrote: . May I say something to you, David? I would like to say it to Izzy and Judy as well. I know you are my brother and sisters. I do not doubt but what we worship the same Savior. I admire your zeal and I admire your desire to live in holiness apart from sin. My friends, this is my desire, too. May I say something more to you? I do not like the quickness with which you condemn your brothers and sisters. jt: Hold it Bill, I don't believe I have condemned anyone on TT and this includes you but I have very recently been the victim of accusation and a sharp tongue here. I figure some people still don't understand the difference between discussing ideas and attacking people. The problem, as I see it, with your theology is that it forces you to expel from your midst anyone who does not read into the Scriptures your understanding of God's words. If perfection is where you are, and if "genuine" believers must be perfect, then anyone who disagrees with you must be imperfect and therefore reprobate. Is that too harsh, too simplistic? jt: I don't know if DavidM's belief is different to mine. I believe in sanctification which some of you may call "perfection" but believing this is God's will for His Church and being there are two different things. We are all at different stages of goofiness working out "our own salvation with fear and trembling" I hope so, but it seems that simple to me, and I do get that impression, especially from you, David, as well as from Judy. Do you want to be perceived this way?... jt: You wouldn't be the first person to get a wrong impression Bill. Remember we have an adversary. I've missed a lot of what has gone on between you and DavidM because when I see all the Greek I turn off and tune out (not being literate in that language); but I have disagreed with DavidM in the past and have not found him to be disagreeable; also to my knowledge he has never kicked anyone off the list because they disagreed with him. Can't we love one another in our imperfection, and at the same time press on? judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Judy, Allow me to refresh your memory. Newbigin was a long time missionary to India. He is not the one who said that faith is rooted in the mind. When I quoted him, he was refuting some who actually had made that claim. The problem was you did not read far enough into my post to get that. Do you remember now? Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 5:44 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection jt: Yes Bill. I wrote that because faith is an attribute of the heart and this fact is all through scripture; a heart of faith is contrasted to an evil heart of unbelief - but I've forgotten, who is Newbigin? judyt From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy do you remember saying this > Newbigin must be an unbeliever also because the mind is not the home of faith. From: Judy Taylor Wm. Taylor wrote: . May I say something to you, David? I would like to say it to Izzy and Judy as well. I know you are my brother and sisters. I do not doubt but what we worship the same Savior. I admire your zeal and I admire your desire to live in holiness apart from sin. My friends, this is my desire, too. May I say something more to you? I do not like the quickness with which you condemn your brothers and sisters. jt: Hold it Bill, I don't believe I have condemned anyone on TT and this includes you but I have very recently been the victim of accusation and a sharp tongue here. I figure some people still don't understand the difference between discussing ideas and attacking people. The problem, as I see it, with your theology is that it forces you to expel from your midst anyone who does not read into the Scriptures your understanding of God's words. If perfection is where you are, and if "genuine" believers must be perfect, then anyone who disagrees with you must be imperfect and therefore reprobate. Is that too harsh, too simplistic? jt: I don't know if DavidM's belief is different to mine. I believe in sanctification which some of you may call "perfection" but believing this is God's will for His Church and being there are two different things. We are all at different stages of goofiness working out "our own salvation with fear and trembling" I hope so, but it seems that simple to me, and I do get that impression, especially from you, David, as well as from Judy. Do you want to be perceived this way?... jt: You wouldn't be the first person to get a wrong impression Bill. Remember we have an adversary. I've missed a lot of what has gone on between you and DavidM because when I see all the Greek I turn off and tune out (not being literate in that language); but I have disagreed with DavidM in the past and have not found him to be disagreeable; also to my knowledge he has never kicked anyone off the list because they disagreed with him. Can't we love one another in our imperfection, and at the same time press on? judyt
[TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
jt: Must be a box of humility because there is certainly none of it here. Keep on being yourself Bill. From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Lighten up a little, Bill. Remember that all the others on this site on trapped in a box of their own making save you and I. I am however now wondering about even you. Lance From: Wm. Taylor To all TTers, My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. >
[TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
jt: Oh! Sorry about that Bill. My misunderstanding. Newbigin is exonerated and I stand corrected. Judyt From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy, Allow me to refresh your memory. Newbigin was a long time missionary to India. He is not the one who said that faith is rooted in the mind. When I quoted him, he was refuting some who actually had made that claim. The problem was you did not read far enough into my post to get that. Do you remember now? Bill From: Judy Taylor jt: Yes Bill. I wrote that because faith is an attribute of theheart and this fact is all through scripture; a heart of faith iscontrasted to an evil heart of unbelief - but I've forgotten, who is Newbigin? judyt From: "Wm. Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Judy do you remember saying this > Newbigin must be an unbeliever also because the mind is not the home of faith. From: Judy Taylor Wm. Taylor wrote: . May I say something to you, David? I would like to say it to Izzy and Judy as well. I know you are my brother and sisters. I do not doubt but what we worship the same Savior. I admire your zeal and I admire your desire to live in holiness apart from sin. My friends, this is my desire, too. May I say something more to you? I do not like the quickness with which you condemn your brothers and sisters. jt: Hold it Bill, I don't believe I have condemned anyone on TT and this includes you but I have very recently been the victim of accusation and a sharp tongue here. I figure some people still don't understand the difference between discussing ideas and attacking people. The problem, as I see it, with your theology is that it forces you to expel from your midst anyone who does not read into the Scriptures your understanding of God's words. If perfection is where you are, and if "genuine" believers must be perfect, then anyone who disagrees with you must be imperfect and therefore reprobate. Is that too harsh, too simplistic? jt: I don't know if DavidM's belief is different to mine. I believe in sanctification which some of you may call "perfection" butbelieving this is God's will for His Church and being there are two different things. We are all at different stages of goofiness working out "our own salvation with fear and trembling" I hope so, but it seems that simple to me, and I do get that impression, especially from you, David, as well as from Judy. Do you want to be perceived this way?... jt: You wouldn't be the first person to get a wrong impression Bill. Remember we have an adversary. I've missed a lot of what has gone on between you and DavidM because when I see all the Greek I turn off and tune out (not being literate in that language); but I have disagreed with DavidM in the past and have not found him to be disagreeable; also to my knowledge he has never kicked anyone off the list because they disagreed with him. Can't we love one another in our imperfection, and at the same time press on? judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Humor does not translate well via email. Lance - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 12, 2004 07:59 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection jt: Must be a box of humility because there is certainly none of it here. Keep on being yourself Bill. From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Lighten up a little, Bill. Remember that all the others on this site on trapped in a box of their own making save you and I. I am however now wondering about even you. Lance From: Wm. Taylor To all TTers, My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. >
RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Lance, What is “too much” for me is people like Elsman who hate David Miller because he is a truly righteous man. (Trust me, I know him personally.) Or people like Chris, who hates all Catholics, Protestants, (not just their doctrines, but them) and doctors to boot. And people like Judyt whose elbows must be out of joint from constantly pointing out the flaws, sins, ulterior evil intents (even of the most innocent children), and incorrect doctrines of others while simultaneously patting herself on the back for her own superior “discernment”. (Have you ever heard her say anything KIND about ANYONE? And yet how eager she is to seek out and forward evil reports about anyone who is mentioned favorably by someone on TT!!!). But you learn to expect that from certain people who project their unconscious self-hatred of their own evil onto others, and then persecute them for it. What is really too much for me to take is when you expect something better of someone who should be above all that, and then are entirely let down. That’s just more than I can deal with, even on a good day. I just don’t have the stomach for any of it anymore. You have to suffer through too much pride and self-aggrandizement here to enjoy the simple goodness of the sweet-but-imperfect ones. And you know who you are. I love you. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 5:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Izzy:Please don't allow TT to become "too much" for you. I'd miss your tender heart in the mix. This won't lead to anyone being burned at the stake! A steak might be in order but, the kind over which differences might be disscussed and hugs might follow. Blessings, Lance - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 12, 2004 07:26 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Bill, Funny, I thought the discussion between you and David was about Greek translations, but now I realize it was really all about you. Guess that shows what I know. You have no idea how shocking and hurtful your words, below, are. I am literally crying for David Miller right now because I know how hurt he will be to read this. I think TT is too much for me to take, Izzy My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. Before judging me too hastily But please do not judge me before knowing my motives -- Is that too much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about me, he does not care about us, he cares only about himself. I have been accused of an ethical problem. My integrity has been called into question. I am tired of hearing Christians condemning Christians. I suggested to David that perhaps the better way to go in this discussion would be to agree to disagree and show the world that we can love each other in spite of our own limitations. He thought better of that -- but Christians can do this, you know. May I say something to you, David? I would like to say it to Izzy and Judy as well. I do not like the quickness with which you condemn your brothers and sisters. David, please do not be so rude. Bill - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 9:24 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection > Bill wrote: > > I bring my knowledge of these truths from the > > Gospels of Christ with me to my translation of > > John's epistle. I do not apologize for that. > > Yes, it does seem to me that you let your theology force itself upon the > passage. We all bring such with us, but we should try to let the > passage speak for itself. I certainly do not disagree with the theology > you bring, but when it blinds you to other issues being brought forth, > that is troublesome to me. > > Bill wrote: > > And so you or any Greek scholar are welcome > > to disagree with my rendering of these Greek > > words. I ask only that you be honest enough > > to consider what you are bringing with you > > when you go to the same text and begin > > to translate. > > I think I am well aware of what I bring with me, but if not, it seems > like nobody will step up to the plate and tell me about it. Seems like > too many think it too rude to tell David Miller that he is wrong about > this and why he is wrong. > > Look, you never addressed my main question. I never objected to word > order at all, but you gave a long lecture about how word order does not > matter. Fine. No problem there. My problem was with how you perceived > "pas" to be modifying "oidamen." I have been taught and have observed > in the Greek Bible that adjectives alway
[TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
jt: No humor here Lance, you have built for yourself mental constructs which appear to be threatened by the Word of God. Will be interesting to see what holds in the last day because ALL judgment is given to the Son and he will judge according to the words He has spoken. From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Humor does not translate well via email. Lance From: Judy Taylor jt: Must be a box of humility because there is certainly none of it here. Keep on being yourself Bill. From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Lighten up a little, Bill. Remember that all the others on this site on trapped in a box of their own making save you and I. I am however now wondering about even you. Lance From: Wm. Taylor To all TTers,My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. >
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Judy: That was a good one as they say. Who said that you had no funnybone? Lance - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 12, 2004 08:39 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection jt: No humor here Lance, you have built for yourself mental constructs which appear to be threatened by the Word of God. Will be interesting to see what holds in the last day because ALL judgment is given to the Son and he will judge according to the words He has spoken. From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Humor does not translate well via email. Lance From: Judy Taylor jt: Must be a box of humility because there is certainly none of it here. Keep on being yourself Bill. From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Lighten up a little, Bill. Remember that all the others on this site on trapped in a box of their own making save you and I. I am however now wondering about even you. Lance From: Wm. Taylor To all TTers,My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. >
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Sixteen years in a Christian bookstore! Need I say more? Please do not flee as a moderating voice such as your own is needed. Lance - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 12, 2004 08:37 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Lance, What is too much for me is people like Elsman who hate David Miller because he is a truly righteous man. (Trust me, I know him personally.) Or people like Chris, who hates all Catholics, Protestants, (not just their doctrines, but them) and doctors to boot. And people like Judyt whose elbows must be out of joint from constantly pointing out the flaws, sins, ulterior evil intents (even of the most innocent children), and incorrect doctrines of others while simultaneously patting herself on the back for her own superior discernment. (Have you ever heard her say anything KIND about ANYONE? And yet how eager she is to seek out and forward evil reports about anyone who is mentioned favorably by someone on TT!!!). But you learn to expect that from certain people who project their unconscious self-hatred of their own evil onto others, and then persecute them for it. What is really too much for me to take is when you expect something better of someone who should be above all that, and then are entirely let down. Thats just more than I can deal with, even on a good day. I just dont have the stomach for any of it anymore. You have to suffer through too much pride and self-aggrandizement here to enjoy the simple goodness of the sweet-but-imperfect ones. And you know who you are. I love you. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Monday, April 12, 2004 5:35 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Izzy:Please don't allow TT to become "too much" for you. I'd miss your tender heart in the mix. This won't lead to anyone being burned at the stake! A steak might be in order but, the kind over which differences might be disscussed and hugs might follow. Blessings, Lance - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 12, 2004 07:26 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Bill, Funny, I thought the discussion between you and David was about Greek translations, but now I realize it was really all about you. Guess that shows what I know. You have no idea how shocking and hurtful your words, below, are. I am literally crying for David Miller right now because I know how hurt he will be to read this. I think TT is too much for me to take, Izzy My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. Before judging me too hastily But please do not judge me before knowing my motives -- Is that too much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about me, he does not care about us, he cares only about himself. I have been accused of an ethical problem. My integrity has been called into question. I am tired of hearing Christians condemning Christians. I suggested to David that perhaps the better way to go in this discussion would be to agree to disagree and show the world that we can love each other in spite of our own limitations. He thought better of that -- but Christians can do this, you know. May I say something to you, David? I would like to say it to Izzy and Judy as well. I do not like the quickness with which you condemn your brothers and sisters. David, please do not be so rude. Bill - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 9:24 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection > Bill wrote:> > I bring my knowledge of these truths from the > > Gospels of Christ with me to my translation of > > John's epistle. I do not apologize for that. > > Yes, it does seem to me that you let your theology force itself upon the> passage. We all bring such with us, but we should try to let the> passage speak for itself. I certainly do not disagree with the theology> you bring, but when it blinds you to other issues being brought forth,> that is troublesome to me.> > Bill wrote:> > And so you or any Greek scholar are welcome > > to d
[TruthTalk] Ad-hominem attacks was Christian Perfection
Izzy, it would be nice if you would take a lesson out of your own book IOW practice what you preach. I've been giving you some space in not responding to your messages but you have really gone over the top here. Where is your kind and tender heart in any of this? You really need to let God be God because He and He alone sees the heart and it is He who will declare who is and who is not "righteous" you may like and respect DavidM but this is not your call. Are you aware that taking up an offence for DavidM puts you in a worse position than he is in? God gives grace to the one under attack (if this is the case) but when you revile others in taking up for him you put yourself out there with no cover/protection because vengeance belongs to God and He is the one who will repay. Yesterday you were thanking Lance for taking up for you when he announced that someone (I forget who) owed you an apology. Repentance is also in order for this mess. I can't help it if you misunderstand just about everything I write but you are responsible for your reaction and this is a personal attack which if ignored by DavidM and Perry will cause them to be remiss. judyt Izzy writes: Here is a lesson for us on discernment when it comes to negative, accusing, evil-speaking, reviling, hateful people: To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. (Titus 1:15) You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. (Matt 12: 34-36) May God have mercy on the merciless! From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Lance, What is “too much” for me is people like Elsman who hate David Miller because he is a truly righteous man. (Trust me, I know him personally.) Or people like Chris, who hates all Catholics, Protestants, (not just their doctrines, but them) and doctors to boot. And people like Judyt whose elbows must be out of joint from constantly pointing out the flaws, sins, ulterior evil intents (even of the most innocent children), and incorrect doctrines of others while simultaneously patting herself on the back for her own superior “discernment”. (Have you ever heard her say anything KIND about ANYONE? And yet how eager she is to seek out and forward evil reports about anyone who is mentioned favorably by someone on TT!!!). But you learn to expect that from certain people who project their unconscious self-hatred of their own evil onto others, and then persecute them for it. What is really too much for me to take is when you expect something better of someone who should be above all that, and then are entirely let down. That’s just more than I can deal with, even on a good day. I just don’t have the stomach for any of it anymore. You have to suffer through too much pride and self-aggrandizement here to enjoy the simple goodness of the sweet-but-imperfect ones. And you know who you are. I love you. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Monday, April 12, 2004 5:35 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Izzy:Please don't allow TT to become "too much" for you. I'd miss your tender heart in the mix. This won't lead to anyone being burned at the stake! A steak might be in order but, the kind over which differences might be disscussed and hugs might follow. Blessings, Lance - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 12, 2004 07:26 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Bill, Funny, I thought the discussion between you and David was about Greek translations, but now I realize it was really all about you. Guess that shows what I know. You have no idea how shocking and hurtful your words, below, are. I am literally crying for David Miller right now because I know how hurt he will be to read this. I think TT is too much for me to take, Izzy My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. Before judging me too hastily But please do not judge me before knowing my motives -- Is that too much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about me, he does not care about us, he cares only about himself. I have been accused of an ethical problem. My integrity has been called into question. I am tired of hearing Christians condemning Chri
[TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sixteen years in a Christian bookstore! Need I say more? Please do not flee as a moderating voice such as your own is needed. Lance jt: Moderating? Where are you at Lance Muir or where have you been? If the "Christian" Bookstore does this to a person then you need to get out of the business for your own spiritual well being. I can't believe you could read the venom coming from Izzy and pat her on the back for it. You are a respecter of persons Lance and this is not good, according to scripture it is evil. We already have a moderater to take care of problems and he is not Izzy. From: ShieldsFamily Lance,What is too much for me is people like Elsman who hate David Millerbecause he is a truly righteous man. (Trust me, I know him personally.)Or people like Chris, who hates all Catholics, Protestants, (not justtheir doctrines, but them) and doctors to boot. And people like Judytwhose elbows must be out of joint from constantly pointing out the flaws,sins, ulterior evil intents (even of the most innocent children), andincorrect doctrines of others while simultaneously patting herself on theback for her own superior discernment. (Have you ever heard her sayanything KIND about ANYONE? And yet how eager she is to seek out andforward evil reports about anyone who is mentioned favorably by someoneon TT!!!). But you learn to expect that from certain people who projecttheir unconscious self-hatred of their own evil onto others, and thenpersecute them for it.What is really too much for me to take is when you expect somethingbetter of someone who should be above all that, and then are entirely letdown. Thats just more than I can deal with, even on a good day. I justdont have the stomach for any of it anymore. You have to suffer throughtoo much pride and self-aggrandizement here to enjoy the simple goodnessof the sweet-but-imperfect ones. And you know who you are. I love you.Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Monday, April 12, 2004 5:35 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian PerfectionIzzy:Please don't allow TT to become "too much" for you. I'd miss yourtender heart in the mix. This won't lead to anyone being burned at thestake! A steak might be in order but, the kind over which differencesmight be disscussed and hugs might follow. Blessings, Lance- Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 12, 2004 07:26Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian PerfectionBill, Funny, I thought the discussion between you and David was about Greektranslations, but now I realize it was really all about you. Guess thatshows what I know. You have no idea how shocking and hurtful your words, below, are. I amliterally crying for David Miller right now because I know how hurt hewill be to read this. I think TT is too much for me to take,Izzy My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. Before judging metoo hastily But please do not judge me before knowing my motives -- Isthat too much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about me, hedoes not care about us, he cares only about himself.I have been accused of an ethical problem. My integrity has been calledinto question. I am tired of hearing Christians condemning Christians. I suggested to David that perhaps the better way to go in this discussionwould be to agree to disagree and show the world that we can love eachother in spite of our own limitations. He thought better of that -- butChristians can do this, you know.May I say something to you, David? I would like to say it to Izzy andJudy as well. I do not like the quickness with which you condemn yourbrothers and sisters. David, please do not be so rude. Bill- Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 9:24 PMSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection> Bill wrote:> > I bring my knowledge of these truths from the > > Gospels of Christ with me to my translation of > > John's epistle. I do not apologize for that. > > Yes, it does seem to me that you let your theology force itself uponthe> passage. We all bring such with us, but we should try to let the> passage speak for itself. I certainly do not disagree with thetheology> you bring, but when it blinds you to other issues being brought forth,> that is troublesome to me.> > Bill wrote:> > And so you or any Greek scholar are welcome > > to disagree with my rendering of these Greek > > words. I ask only that you be honest enough > > to consider what you are bringing with you > > when you go to the same text and begin > > to translate.> > I think I am well aware of what I bring with me, but if not, it seems> like nobody will step up to the plate and tell me about it. Seems like> too many think it too rude to tell David Miller that he is wrong about> this and w
Re: [TruthTalk] Ad-hominem attacks was Christian Perfection
Judy: He was wrong when he said that "short people got no reason for livin'" However when the consensus is that you are vertically challenged and you live in denial, well...Lance PS: How does it go? If the shoe fits.. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 12, 2004 09:04 Subject: [TruthTalk] Ad-hominem attacks was Christian Perfection Izzy, it would be nice if you would take a lesson out of your own book IOW practice what you preach. I've been giving you some space in not responding to your messages but you have really gone over the top here. Where is your kind and tender heart in any of this? You really need to let God be God because He and He alone sees the heart and it is He who will declare who is and who is not "righteous" you may like and respect DavidM but this is not your call. Are you aware that taking up an offence for DavidM puts you in a worse position than he is in? God gives grace to the one under attack (if this is the case) but when you revile others in taking up for him you put yourself out there with no cover/protection because vengeance belongs to God and He is the one who will repay. Yesterday you were thanking Lance for taking up for you when he announced that someone (I forget who) owed you an apology. Repentance is also in order for this mess. I can't help it if you misunderstand just about everything I write but you are responsible for your reaction and this is a personal attack which if ignored by DavidM and Perry will cause them to be remiss. judyt Izzy writes: Here is a lesson for us on discernment when it comes to negative, accusing, evil-speaking, reviling, hateful people: To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. (Titus 1:15) You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. (Matt 12: 34-36) May God have mercy on the merciless! [EMAIL PROTECTED]> Lance, What is too much for me is people like Elsman who hate David Miller because he is a truly righteous man. (Trust me, I know him personally.) Or people like Chris, who hates all Catholics, Protestants, (not just their doctrines, but them) and doctors to boot. And people like Judyt whose elbows must be out of joint from constantly pointing out the flaws, sins, ulterior evil intents (even of the most innocent children), and incorrect doctrines of others while simultaneously patting herself on the back for her own superior discernment. (Have you ever heard her say anything KIND about ANYONE? And yet how eager she is to seek out and forward evil reports about anyone who is mentioned favorably by someone on TT!!!). But you learn to expect that from certain people who project their unconscious self-hatred of their own evil onto others, and then persecute them for it. What is really too much for me to take is when you expect something better of someone who should be above all that, and then are entirely let down. Thats just more than I can deal with, even on a good day. I just dont have the stomach for any of it anymore. You have to suffer through too much pride and self-aggrandizement here to enjoy the simple goodness of the sweet-but-imperfect ones. And you know who you are. I love you. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Monday, April 12, 2004 5:35 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Izzy:Please don't allow TT to become "too much" for you. I'd miss your tender heart in the mix. This won't lead to anyone being burned at the stake! A steak might be in order but, the kind over which differences might be disscussed and hugs might follow. Blessings, Lance - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 12, 2004 07:26 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection Bill, Funny, I thought the discussion between you and David was about Greek translations, but now I realize it was really all about you. Guess that shows what I know. You have no idea how shocking and hurtful your words, below, are. I am literally
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Dave wrote: Terry Clifton wrote: Charles Perry Locke wrote: Terry, do you believe that one who is saved can lose that salvation? Perry Wow! That seems like such a simple question, but it would take pages to give you a complete answer. Put simply, I do not believe that you can lose your salvation...but,... I believe that you can throw it away. The Bible teaches that the same one who saved you is able to keep you, but it does not say that He will force you to stay against your will. I offer as an example a pastor, who a few years back, resigned as minister of his church. The reason he gave was that he no longer believed what he had been preaching. He was a believer, now he is not. Had he died prior to making his decision to no longer believe, he would have gone to Heaven. Now his future appears to be the lake of fire. I think that this is rare compared to those who at one time claimed or are claiming to be Christians, only to show their true colors after being tested over time, but yes, it does happen, and when it does, I believe that that person is no longer saved. God will not force anyone to spend eternity with Him. Hope this answers your question at least to some degree. Terry DAVEH: So Terry, do you think a saved Christian who converts to Mormonism has lost their salvation? = God's ways are beyond my understanding Dave. Some places in the Bible make it look as though God will accept about anyone, no matter how screwed up their theology, as long as they have even a little faith. Other places indicate that God is big on obedience, and you better do it His way or go to Hell. Since there is no more important item on my list than spending eternity with my Lord (and avoiding Hell), I generally tend to go with the be obedient route. Why take chances? Paul told those who were calling themselves Christians, yet trying to gain favor with God by keeping the law , that they had "Fallen from Grace". In my opinion, Mormons do the same thing with the same result. Adding to the requirement for salvation says that Jesus alone is not enough. I would hope that the Lord sees you as confused but sincere, and allows you to spend eternity with Him, but I sure would not bet on it, as your whole system of belief contradicts much of God's word. No hard feelings, just the truth as I am able to see it. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
JT: I'll hand in my resignation today. Whew! Thanks for pointing this out to me. What was I thinking? Lance - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 12, 2004 09:09 Subject: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sixteen years in a Christian bookstore! Need I say more? Please do not flee as a moderating voice such as your own is needed. Lance jt: Moderating? Where are you at Lance Muir or where have you been? If the "Christian" Bookstore does this to a person then you need to get out of the business for your own spiritual well being. I can't believe you could read the venom coming from Izzy and pat her on the back for it. You are a respecter of persons Lance and this is not good, according to scripture it is evil. We already have a moderater to take care of problems and he is not Izzy. From: ShieldsFamily Lance,What is too much for me is people like Elsman who hate David Millerbecause he is a truly righteous man. (Trust me, I know him personally.)Or people like Chris, who hates all Catholics, Protestants, (not justtheir doctrines, but them) and doctors to boot. And people like Judytwhose elbows must be out of joint from constantly pointing out the flaws,sins, ulterior evil intents (even of the most innocent children), andincorrect doctrines of others while simultaneously patting herself on theback for her own superior discernment. (Have you ever heard her sayanything KIND about ANYONE? And yet how eager she is to seek out andforward evil reports about anyone who is mentioned favorably by someoneon TT!!!). But you learn to expect that from certain people who projecttheir unconscious self-hatred of their own evil onto others, and thenpersecute them for it.What is really too much for me to take is when you expect somethingbetter of someone who should be above all that, and then are entirely letdown. Thats just more than I can deal with, even on a good day. I justdont have the stomach for any of it anymore. You have to suffer throughtoo much pride and self-aggrandizement here to enjoy the simple goodnessof the sweet-but-imperfect ones. And you know who you are. I love you.Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Monday, April 12, 2004 5:35 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Christian PerfectionIzzy:Please don't allow TT to become "too much" for you. I'd miss yourtender heart in the mix. This won't lead to anyone being burned at thestake! A steak might be in order but, the kind over which differencesmight be disscussed and hugs might follow. Blessings, Lance- Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 12, 2004 07:26Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian PerfectionBill, Funny, I thought the discussion between you and David was about Greektranslations, but now I realize it was really all about you. Guess thatshows what I know. You have no idea how shocking and hurtful your words, below, are. I amliterally crying for David Miller right now because I know how hurt hewill be to read this. I think TT is too much for me to take,Izzy My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. Before judging metoo hastily But please do not judge me before knowing my motives -- Isthat too much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about me, hedoes not care about us, he cares only about himself.I have been accused of an ethical problem. My integrity has been calledinto question. I am tired of hearing Christians condemning Christians. I suggested to David that perhaps the better way to go in this discussionwould be to agree to disagree and show the world that we can love eachother in spite of our own limitations. He thought better of that -- butChristians can do this, you know.May I say something to you, David? I would like to say it to Izzy andJudy as well. I do not like the quickness with which you condemn yourbrothers and sisters. David, please do not be so rude. Bill- Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 9:24 PMSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection> Bill wrote:> > I bring my knowledge of these truths from the > > Gospels of Christ with me to my translation of > > John's epistle. I do not apologize for that. > > Yes, it does seem to me that you let your theology force itself uponthe> passage. We all bring such with us, but we should try to let the> passage speak for itself. I certainly do not disagree with thetheology> you bring, but when it blinds you to other issues being brought forth,> that is troublesome to me.> > Bill wrote:> > And so you or any Greek scholar a
Re: [TruthTalk] Pseudo Science
Judy Taylor wrote: From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> jt: in circles where they teach that healing is part of the atonement approximately 5% who come fwd in healing lines receive healing. Why? Healing is the children's bread is it not? terry: I have trouble equating healing with bread. jt: Why? These are Jesus' Words to a Greek woman (Matt 15:26) "It's not good to take the children's bread and feed it to dogs" She was not at that point a child of the covenant and she was seeking healing for her daughter. Today whoever is in Christ is in covenant with God and "He is the same yesterday, today, and forever" terry: As to the statistics you supplied, is a ninety-five percent rate of failure is considered normal by those who claim to be healers? jt: Working of miracles and gifts of healing are two of the "spiritual gifts Jesus left to the Church when he ascended; they operate as the Spirit wills and are not subject to the whims of men. terry: Were the failures the fault of the healer or the healee? jt: I know of one pastor who is seeing people healed under his ministry and he teaches sanctification. He is of the opinion that sin in the body of Christ is why people are not being healed. This is what he learned when he sought God about it being in dismay over what he was seeing. terry: Were five percent really healed, or were they deluded? jt: I believe there are some genuine healings; having his people going around dressed in the curse certainly is not glorifying God and outwardly there is no difference between the world and the Church right now which should not be. terry: Were all of the supposed healings something internal that could not be seen, or did someone have an ear reattached or a disfigurment such as caused by leprosy healed where the healing was immeadiate and obvious to everyone? jt: Miracles have been known to happen but sadly they are the exception rather than the rule because of our unbelief and sin. terry: If Benny Hinn and others like him can do these things, I know of some leper colonies where they would be most welcome. jt: Doesn't work like that Terry because God does not perform on demand. Jesus only did what he first saw the Father doing and He is the pattern. judyt Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus did a little better than five percent. Terry
[TruthTalk] Pseudo Science
From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jesus did a little better than five percent.Terry Right. But remember, Jesus only did what he first saw the Father doing. If in ministry today ppl only did what they first saw Jesus doing there would be similar results as in Jesus' earthly ministry. He said we are supposed to do the same works as he and greater didn't He? Right now there are too many out there doing their own thing in His Name. judyt Judy Taylor wrote: From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> jt: in circles where they teach that healing is part of the atonement approximately 5% who come fwd in healing lines receive healing. Why? Healing is the children's bread is it not? terry: I have trouble equating healing with bread. jt: Why? These are Jesus' Words to a Greek woman (Matt 15:26) "It's not good to take the children's bread and feed it to dogs" She was not at that point a child of the covenant and she was seeking healing for her daughter. Today whoever is in Christ is in covenant with God and "He is the same yesterday, today, and forever" terry: As to the statistics you supplied, is a ninety-five percent rate of failure is considered normal by those who claim to be healers? jt: Working of miracles and gifts of healing are two of the "spiritual gifts Jesus left to the Church when he ascended; they operate as the Spirit wills and are not subject to the whims of men. terry: Were the failures the fault of the healer or the healee? jt: I know of one pastor who is seeing people healed under his ministry and he teaches sanctification. He is of the opinion that sin in the body of Christ is why people are not being healed. This is what he learned when he sought God about it being in dismay over what he was seeing. terry: Were five percent really healed, or were they deluded? jt: I believe there are some genuine healings; having his people going around dressed in the curse certainly is not glorifying God and outwardly there is no difference between the world and the Church right now which should not be. terry: Were all of the supposed healings something internal that could not be seen, or did someone have an ear reattached or a disfigurment such as caused by leprosy healed where the healing was immeadiate and obvious to everyone? jt: Miracles have been known to happen but sadly they are the exception rather than the rule because of our unbelief and sin. terry: If Benny Hinn and others like him can do these things, I know of some leper colonies where they would be most welcome. jt: Doesn't work like that Terry because God does not perform on demand. Jesus only did what he first saw the Father doing and He is the pattern. judyt
RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Bill wrote: > My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. > Before judging me too hastily I ask that you first hear > me out. I would like to ask that you please read this post > in its entirety. It will be long but I want you to know > what I am doing and why I am doing it. Hear me out and > judge me later, if that is your desire. But please do > not judge me before knowing my motives -- Is that too > much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about > me, he does not care about us, he cares only about himself. Bill, my heart is hurting so much right now. I am interested in discussing this further for the sake of learning, but I'm not sure I have the stomach for it. I know it is not your fault that I came across as an accuser. People often perceive me this way, especially on e-mail, and so I know that the problem is ever present with me and not with you. I am a poor communicator. I am not your accuser, and being perceived as your accuser is the last thing I would want to perpetuate. As I have said before, you are a theology professor in our midst. All my formal education has been in the biological sciences. I have never been to seminary, nor have I even taken any kind of religion class whatsoever. When it comes to the matters that we are discussing, I am completely self taught. You, on the other hand, are much more learned than me in these areas. I crave to know the things that you know. You are the teacher and I am the student in these matters, but I am not a student who knows nothing at all. I have attempted to increase my knowledge and understanding, so I come to class here with some preconceived notions. I basically have worked through computer software programs to learn Greek and have several Greek texts here and grammars and textbooks that I work through to try and better my understanding. You, on the other hand, have sat under these same teachers who have written the materials that I have used. You have had the personal face to face instruction, and you have been able to raise questions to your instructors. When you speak things contrary to my preconceived notions, I have a passion to understand and get to the truth. I always assume that you are right and I am wrong, but before I can conform to your way of understanding, I have to find out what it is about my way of thinking that is wrong. My questions are framed so that I can get to the bottom of what is wrong with my thinking. I need to voice objections that arise in my mind so I can hear you answer them and thereby increase my understanding. At no time have I ever had a desire to accuse you of anything, but simply to be honest and open about what goes on in my mind, even if the thoughts I have are not pleasant. I see this as inviting you to respond to objections with the goal of putting to rest whatever it might be that would cause me to continue to think differently than you. Well, your last post certainly does raise more questions in my mind, but your perception that I am accusing you is very disturbing to me and overrides my desire to learn. I think I will just set all this aside for now. Maybe I can come back to it later and raise some of the technical points that are in my mind. I think you grossly misunderstand my perspective. On the other hand, if talking about this is going to separate us and cause you to perceive me as your accuser, then I will simply hold my tongue. Satan is the accuser of the brethren, and if I have become your accuser, then something is terribly wrong with me. Even if the truth is that I am not your accuser but simply perceived to be your accuser, something is still terribly wrong, probably with the way that I communicate. Maybe I have a faulty attitude. Unless we can agree to discuss our differences of perspective without considering the other person to be outside of Christ, then we might as well not discuss at all. It is times like this when I feel very tempted to abandon e-mail altogether as a way to increase knowledge and understanding, but then I look back on how much e-mail discussions like this have motivated me to study further. Such is very good fruit that I appreciate. Especially in this discussion, you have motivated me tremendously to study further and for that I would like to thank you. I have consulted numerous Greek texts on 1 John 5:18 that I have never before felt necessary to do, and I have dug in on my studies in a way that before seemed unnecessary to me. Yet if this is a one way street with me benefiting and you not benefiting, then I must lay it all aside. Far be it from me to better myself to the detriment of you. I'm very sorry for coming across as an accuser. Please forgive me. I will be praying today about how I can change, so that I might be a blessing to you. If you or any other elders among us have any words for me, whether public or private, I welcome your instruction to me. I am truly sorry. I am believing in the Lord to c
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
David, I haven't made it all the way through your post, but I have to say this. I did not intend to imply anything other than that satan is "our accuser." I see how you could see otherwise. Izzy and everyone else too. I am sorry. He is the one who does not care about us. That is what concerns me so when we Christians lower ourselves to accusing other Christians before we know their motives, their heart condition. Please forgive MY FAILURE TO COMMUNICATE this better. I felt like you were questioning my integrity throughout the last several posts, suggesting that I had failed to consider this and that. The truth is I thought I was being upfront with you, explaining what I was doing and why. Each time I would answer one round of questions, you would ask more, again questioning my motives. I am so sorry I misunderstood you. I do not want to hurt you or anyone. I am beginning to wonder if maybe e-correspondence is possible between Christians. It seems to bring out the worst in all of us. Please forgive me. Give me a call if you like, or let me know. I will call you. Bill - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 9:17 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection > Bill wrote: > > My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. > > Before judging me too hastily I ask that you first hear > > me out. I would like to ask that you please read this post > > in its entirety. It will be long but I want you to know > > what I am doing and why I am doing it. Hear me out and > > judge me later, if that is your desire. But please do > > not judge me before knowing my motives -- Is that too > > much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about > > me, he does not care about us, he cares only about himself. > > Bill, my heart is hurting so much right now. I am interested in > discussing this further for the sake of learning, but I'm not sure I > have the stomach for it. I know it is not your fault that I came across > as an accuser. People often perceive me this way, especially on e-mail, > and so I know that the problem is ever present with me and not with you. > I am a poor communicator. I am not your accuser, and being perceived as > your accuser is the last thing I would want to perpetuate. > > As I have said before, you are a theology professor in our midst. All > my formal education has been in the biological sciences. I have never > been to seminary, nor have I even taken any kind of religion class > whatsoever. When it comes to the matters that we are discussing, I am > completely self taught. You, on the other hand, are much more learned > than me in these areas. I crave to know the things that you know. You > are the teacher and I am the student in these matters, but I am not a > student who knows nothing at all. I have attempted to increase my > knowledge and understanding, so I come to class here with some > preconceived notions. I basically have worked through computer software > programs to learn Greek and have several Greek texts here and grammars > and textbooks that I work through to try and better my understanding. > You, on the other hand, have sat under these same teachers who have > written the materials that I have used. You have had the personal face > to face instruction, and you have been able to raise questions to your > instructors. When you speak things contrary to my preconceived notions, > I have a passion to understand and get to the truth. I always assume > that you are right and I am wrong, but before I can conform to your way > of understanding, I have to find out what it is about my way of thinking > that is wrong. My questions are framed so that I can get to the bottom > of what is wrong with my thinking. I need to voice objections that > arise in my mind so I can hear you answer them and thereby increase my > understanding. At no time have I ever had a desire to accuse you of > anything, but simply to be honest and open about what goes on in my > mind, even if the thoughts I have are not pleasant. I see this as > inviting you to respond to objections with the goal of putting to rest > whatever it might be that would cause me to continue to think > differently than you. > > Well, your last post certainly does raise more questions in my mind, but > your perception that I am accusing you is very disturbing to me and > overrides my desire to learn. I think I will just set all this aside > for now. Maybe I can come back to it later and raise some of the > technical points that are in my mind. I think you grossly misunderstand > my perspective. On the other hand, if talking about this is going to > separate us and cause you to perceive me as your accuser, then I will > simply hold my tongue. Satan is the accuser of the brethren, and if I > have become your accuser, then something is terribly wrong with me. > Even if the truth is that I am not your accuser but simply perceived
[TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Bill wrote:> My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. Before judging me too hastily I ask that you first hear > me out. I would like to ask that you please read this post in its entirety. It will be long but I want you to know > what I am doing and why I am doing it. Hear me out and judge me later, if that is your desire. But please do > not judge me before knowing my motives -- Is that too much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about > me, he does not care about us, he cares only about himself. Bill, my heart is hurting so much right now. I am interested in discussing this further for the sake of learning, but I'm not sure I have the stomach for it. I know it is not your fault that I came across as an accuser. People often perceive me this way, especially on e-mail, and so I know that the problem is ever present with me and not with you. I am a poor communicator. I am not your accuser, and being perceived as your accuser is the last thing I would want to perpetuate. jt: Are you sure Bill perceives you as his accuser DavidM? I read it differently but then I've been wrong before. judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Judy, you are s right. I see quite clearly now the concern. I was talking about what happens to Christians when we fail to trust first. Pretty soon the accuser is having his way with us, and more than that, we are doing his bidding. We forget to identify the enemy. It's kind of like the Grinch that stole Christmas. We turn the whos into whats, thereby impersonalising persons. We start thinking about "what" they have done and forget "who" they are in Christ. The next thing you know is we're stealing the joy down in who-ville. The whole time our enemy is smiling. I am sorry I didn't communicate this better. Thank you for getting it. Right on. Bravo. bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 9:29 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Bill wrote:> My accuser claims I have mishandled the Word of God. Before judging me too hastily I ask that you first hear > me out. I would like to ask that you please read this post in its entirety. It will be long but I want you to know > what I am doing and why I am doing it. Hear me out and judge me later, if that is your desire. But please do > not judge me before knowing my motives -- Is that too much to ask? -- because our accuser does not care about > me, he does not care about us, he cares only about himself. Bill, my heart is hurting so much right now. I am interested in discussing this further for the sake of learning, but I'm not sure I have the stomach for it. I know it is not your fault that I came across as an accuser. People often perceive me this way, especially on e-mail, and so I know that the problem is ever present with me and not with you. I am a poor communicator. I am not your accuser, and being perceived as your accuser is the last thing I would want to perpetuate. jt: Are you sure Bill perceives you as his accuser DavidM? I read it differently but then I've been wrong before. judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Children
All right. A "child prodigy" must mean something to you that it does not mean in the field of education. These have obviously become "buzzwords" to describe something that you are seeing in the circles that I do not frequent. As for me, I have had the blessing of both teaching and learning from my children. They know and love God. They have personal relationships with the Father and His Son. In some ways they can be smarter than I because they have gifts that I do not have. For instance, I taught them music. I cannot play piano, except slowly to plunk out parts and harmonies. My children, on the other hand are gifted and they can move an audience in worship to God with their playing of the instrument. Your blanket stipulation would prevent Godly children from serving other brethren until they are age 30. I go along with Paul's admonition to Timothy: 2TI 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 1TI 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 2:51 AM Subject: [TruthTalk] Christian Children From: "Marlin Halverson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> jt: I've never stated that children could not be converted John, what I am saying is that child prophets and child prodigies are out of character for the ministry of God's Spirit in the Church. Children are not responsible for their own spiritual life under Judaism until they are at least 13yrs old and even Jesus who had a full measure of God's Spirit did nothing publicly before the age of 30yrs. When did things change? marlin: No change at all. Judaism is religion and tradition, not the word of God. jt: I meant Israel and they were God's Old Covenant Church; they are the ones who preserved God's Word for our present generation and yes I was aware of Samuel but he is the exception; God was upset and not speaking to Eli. Even so, we have no record that Samuel was a boy prodigy. Did he become the prophet before he was of age that you know of? The Word of God tells of Samuel long before Judaism developed. There were other children inspired of God in the scripture, even from the womb. Joseph, Samson, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, Jesus. jt: OK Joseph had a dream and his brothers tried to kill him over it. Still he waited a long time and was sorely tested before it came to fruition.The parents of Samson, John the Baptist, and Jesus were warned ahead of time that these children would serve God but none of them to my knowledge were sent out as a child prodigy. Do you know of one who was? Even in the passages below Samuel as a child did not know who was speaking to him. Eli had to teach him. judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Lance Muir wrote: IF, using a brush so broad as to be akin to a spray gun, we were to say that the operative word from Adam through Israel is DISOBEDIENCE and, the operative word in the Incarnate Israelite, Jesus is OBEDIENCE then (I'd appreciate others reframing the following question in as many ways as possible) is the life of the believer today to be characterized as a mixture of both? May the believer's life, this side of eternity, ever arrive at ONLY THE LATTER? Lance Ideally, yes. Realistically, we can only come close, and that only with maturity. You learn to walk. Terry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Charles Perry Locke wrote: It does answer the question, Terry, but let me take this a step further. Do you think it is possible that this pastor never really believed in the first place? Perhaps he just reached the point where he became honest about his unbelief. I have a hard time imagining that those who truly believe would ever turn away, or to put it another way, that God could not retiain those whom the Holy Spirit has drawn to Him. Perry A lot of things are possibile, but I have no reason to doubt the pastors word. As to whether one who is truly saved could ever turn away, again I cannot tell for certain, but human love is a strange thing. Sometimes those most visably attached to one another, the most caring, the most affectionate, are the first ones who end up divorced. For some reason, love dies due to no fault of the partner. Our relationship to our Lord is something like that. He loved us first, and we return that love. His love is perfect. Ours is not. The parable of the sower paints a picture of a body of believers. Some had hard hearts and did not believe. Some believed a short time. Others believed a little longer, and still others believed to the end of the road. The ones who finished the race got the prize, but I would not say that some of the others never believed. This is a stretch I know, but just for a moment, put yourself in Jesus' place. Would you want to be married to a bride that you had to constantly steer in the right direction? One that did not consider your wishes? Would you force that bride to cook and clean and return your love, or would you choose a bride that did these things with joy, living to please you? How do you see it? Terry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
[TruthTalk] Christian Children
From: "Marlin Halverson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> All right. A "child prodigy" must mean something to you that it does not mean in the field of education. These have obviously become "buzzwords" to describe something that you are seeing in the circles that I do not frequent. jt: Have no idea what kinds of circles those would be Marlin. I'm just talking about what we've been discussing here on TT. As for me, I have had the blessing of both teaching and learning from my children. They know and love God. They have personal relationships with the Father and His Son. In some ways they can be smarter than I because they have gifts that I do not have. For instance, I taught them music. I cannot play piano, except slowly to plunk out parts and harmonies. My children, on the other hand are gifted and they can move an audience in worship to God with their playing of the instrument. jt: That is wonderful Marlin, I'm glad you enjoy your children so much. Still I hope you can agree with me that children must be taught and that this is the responsibility of parents and those in the body of Christ who are mature. They too must learn to "try the spirits to see if they are of God" Just because a child comes up with something does not make it holy and pure because he/she is a child. Innocent children can be deceived just like anyone else and Jesus as a child was subject to his parents. Your blanket stipulation would prevent Godly children from serving other brethren until they are age 30. I go along with Paul's admonition to Timothy: 2TI 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.1TI 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity. jt: Children are free to serve in many ways, just not in positions of authority and I don't see any indication that the Holy Spirit uses them in the distribution of spiritual gifts. Timothy's mother and grandmother raised him to know God's Word but we need to remember that when Paul wrote these epistles he was pastoring a church at Ephesus so he was no longer a child. he was a young man who was wiser than most because of his grounding in God's Word. judyt From: Judy Taylor From: "Marlin Halverson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> jt: I've never stated that children could not be converted John, what I am saying is that child prophets and child prodigies are out of character for the ministry of God's Spirit in the Church. Children are not responsible for their own spiritual life under Judaism until they are at least 13yrs old and even Jesus who had a full measure of God's Spirit did nothing publicly before the age of 30yrs. When did things change? marlin: No change at all. Judaism is religion and tradition, not the word of God. jt: I meant Israel and they were God's Old Covenant Church; they are the ones who preserved God's Word for our present generation and yes I was aware of Samuel but he is the exception; God was upset and not speaking to Eli. Even so, we have no record that Samuel was a boy prodigy. Did he become the prophet before he was of age that you know of? The Word of God tells of Samuel long before Judaism developed. There were other children inspired of God in the scripture, even from the womb. Joseph, Samson, Jeremiah, John the Baptist, Jesus. jt: OK Joseph had a dream and his brothers tried to kill him over it. Still he waited a long time and was sorely tested before it came to fruition.The parents of Samson, John the Baptist, and Jesus were warned ahead of time that these children would serve God but none of them to my knowledge were sent out as a child prodigy. Do you know of one who was? Even in the passages below Samuel as a child did not know who was speaking to him. Eli had to teach him. judyt
Yo, BLAINE -- Re: [TruthTalk] Science and Scriptural dietary requirements
Title: Romans , Chapter 14
\o/ !HALALU Yah!
\o/
Greetings Blaine in the Matchless
Name of YahShua [that's the name Jesus was called by His mom, dad,
brothers, sisters, disciples and others who loved Him]
!!
Rife only noted the swine connection as a curiosity to him. He did
not test for it but just happened to notice it kept turning up. The other
foods that are forbidden in Scripture very well may have the same or a similar
problem.
To quote the son of Nun, "As for me and my house we will serve YHVH", so no, I/we do not consume those animals
that you listed.
When an auto manufacturer places in the manual to use gasoline for fuel I
do not put in diesel fuel. Most people are not that smart about when it
comes to their own bodies. I stick to the Life Manual of Scripture.
As to eating zoo animals ... do you visit a dairy farm and divvy up one of
the herd for
lunch?
Ahava b' YahShua
(Love in The
SAVIOUR)
Baruch
YHVH,
Chris Barr
a servant of
YHVH
- Original Message -
From:
Blaine
Borrowman
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 04/12/2004 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Science and
Scriptural dietary requirements
Blaine: Is swine the only thing that
produces this susecptibility to cancer? There are many foods
popular today besides pigmeat that are forbidden by the OT. Shrimp,
for one. Do you eat shrimp? Does it do the same as pork once it
gets in the blood? And what about vulture? Or catfish? Or
DOG? Or Horsemeat? (:>) Bytheway, Giraffe is not
forbidden--it parts the hoof and chews the cud. Next time I visit the
zoo, hmmm, which shall I have, a neck steak, or . .
.?
- Original Message -
From:
Chris Barr
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 5:18
PM
Subject: [TruthTalk] Science and
Scriptural dietary requirements
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/
Greetings in the Matchless Name
of YahShua [that's the name Jesus
was called by His mom, dad, brothers, sisters, disciples and
others who loved Him] !!
Royal
Raymond Rife created a microscope (The Universal Microscope) in the 1920s
which was more powerful than ANY microscope available today. You can read
about it in many places including the annals of The Smithsonian Institution
("The New Microscopes" 1944/1945).Extensive research by Rife with
his microscope led to development of a cure for cancer that was PROVEN to be
100% effective in 1930s trials overseen by the AMA, The University of
Southern California, and Dr. Milbanks Johnson, M.D. (President, Los Angeles
County Medical Society at the time) at what would later come to be known as
the renowned Scripps Clinic in La Jolla, CA.Part of his research
with the microscope revealed to him a specific state that the blood MUST be
in for cancer to develop. In his notes he made notation of a curiosity to
him. He had discovered that pork caused the specific state for cancer to
develop and grow very rapidly. Whenever a test subject consumed pork, their
blood entered into that specific state of the blood that he had discovered
was necessary for cancer to develop. The blood would maintain this state for
up to nine hours after ingestion of pork.Rife was not a religious
man. He had no saving faith. He didn't understand that pork was unclean and
not to be consumed according to the commandment of Scripture. He did learn
from his own studies NOT to consume pork due to scientific
reasons!Here is another related note I received more than five years
ago:- Original Message - From: "Dell N Griffin"Sent:
2/19/99 4:55 PMSubject: pork and cancer
Shalom,
Thought I would forward this to you, re: what we discussed earlier
aboutthe BLOOD being the abode of the soul and why eating swine is
prohibitedby the Torah. Hope it doesn't spoil anyone's appetite.
Shabbat Shalom,Dell
FROM: "The Cancer Cure That Worked!" by Barry Lynes> Quoting
the first page of Chapter 18:
Gruner was a Canadian cancer researcher who worked with Rife (inventor
ofthe Rife Machine). As he wrote to Dr. Milbank Johnson in the
late1930'', his contemporaries simply wouldn't look at what was before
theireyes. In the 1940's Gruner argued in essays and books (An
Interpretationof Cancer and the Study of Blood in Cancer) that
pleomorphism was aphenomenon in other diseases. Why, he asked, were
experts so reluctantto examine a similar biological process when it came
to cancer?
Gruner: "Viruses in the strict sense are mostly discredited where
canceris in question. However, the newer pleomorphists stand in
markedcontrast. The virus form, to them, is one phase in the life
history ofmany, if not all bacteria. The bacteria forms do not produc
[TruthTalk] ?? "gifts (plural) of healings (plural)" ??
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! Received this study some time back on the spiritual gifts. The following portion intrigued me ... Now to consider "gifts of healing". Note that in 1 Corinthians 12, three verses (9, 28, 30) refer to gifts of healing, or gifts of healings. Note that they are gifts (plural); and they are given to an individual one. Verse 8 starts, "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom ...". Verse 9 says, "... to another the gifts of healing ...". We see by the context of the whole chapter that Yahweh by His Spirit gives the gifts to individuals severally as He will. An individual person can have one or all of the gifts. The point I make now is that individual ones have gifts, more than one gift of healing. Checking in Strong's Concordance for the meaning of the word "healing", we find that it means "a cure". Therefore individuals, some of them in the assembly, are endowed with gifts of a cure, or have the cure, or cures, when necessary. A cure brings about a healing. Let's read an example of this in 2 Kings 20:1-7. King Hezekiah was sick and near death. He was told by Yahweh through Isaiah that he was going to die. Hezekiah prayed to Yahweh, weeping bitterly. Isaiah was leaving; but Yahweh told him to go back and tell Hezekiah He had heard his prayer and seen his tears, and He would heal him, and add fifteen years to his days. Isaiah said, "Prepare a poultice of figs". They did so and applied it to the boil, and he recovered. The healing really came about because of Hezekiah's prayer; but the cure was the figs, and Isaiah had it. Asa, another king (2 Chronicles 16:12-13) was diseased severely. He sought the physicians rather than Yahweh. He died. What would have been the cure in his case? We do not know because he did not seek Yahweh. Which would you rather do? So knowing that these verses in 1 Corinthians 12 mean "gifts of a cure", we can respect those that Yahweh has set in the assembly who have these gifts, and enjoy the benefits as Yahweh provides them when needed (1 Corinthians 12:28). These saints very much want to share what they have. Maybe we'll then go less or not at all to the doctors of Egypt, gladly listening to the saint's messages of healing and how we ought to be eating, etc. as well, knowing that it is Yahweh that gives them these gifts to not only benefit themselves but the whole assembly. Ones having these gifts likely know of numerous cures for numerous ailments. That is why The Word says giftS in the plural. If it meant one gift of miraculous healing, it would read gift, singular. There were, and are, of course, miraculous healings as previously mentioned, but Scripture does not say they are the result of someone having the gift (singular) of healing. Healings brought about by means of a cure are really a miracle too. With the disciples, a power from Yahshua and FAITH was involved, and maybe sometimes a cure too (see Luke 9:6, Rotherham). Today it is FAITH, and a CURE may be involved. Yahweh still heals almost instantly sometimes, but probably more often a cure is shown after prayer. Prayer of faith and cures can go hand in hand, and Yahweh does the healing. In my own personal family life there have been instances of Yahweh healing after prayer, and a cure or cures involved. Once our son was very, very sick abed. I called for elders -- not physicians. One elder brought along a book telling some things to do. I gave the boy cures -- steam, hot fomentations, garlic, lemon juice. He was well in 3 days, and a cough he had had for months also disappeared. Before calling for the elders, I didn't know what to do. Another time my back "went out" while driving to work. Yah got me home, and my wife drove me to a chiropractor. I was better for a while but the back got bad again. I decided to do as Yahshua said about praying believing. I prayed that I wouldn't have to go to the chiropractor any more for my back, and repeated "He will heal me. He will heal me." By a miracle He did. I had no pain for about 2 weeks. But then it began to come back. Why? I didn't know. Talking to an Adventist friend about my cousin's wife's bad back, he said, "She needs carrot juice". I had the sense to realize the message was for me and began to drink it. Probably knowing nothing about gifts of cures at the time, I thought likely my pain had come back so I would get myself and family on a better diet. I didn't realize the raw carrot juice was the Scriptural gift of a cure the Adventist had for me. He didn't know it was for me either. I also decided on my own (right or wrong) to eat almost all raw food for about 3 years. To this day, many years later, I have never had to go back to the chiropractor for my back. I've drunk many gallons of carrot juice. I also had been told I had a heart leakage. I'm not told
[TruthTalk] Packaging ...
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings David et al in the Matchless Name of YahShua ! "Judge not according to the packaging, but judge righteous judgment." -- John 7:24 ... words of The Saviour in the BRSV (Barr Revised Standard Version) > Do you recognize any possibility for improvement here, or am I now> considered a reprobate fool for even speaking to you in this manner?> Yes, I recognize possiblity for improvement. No, one is not considered a reprobate fool for the manner in which they speak to me. I am but a servant of YHVH, reprobation is determined in accordance with He and not with I. Your arguments regarding how I conduct myself are flawed (Scripture out of context and outright errors). For instance, Balaam did not become known as a false prophet because of a bad attitude. His downfall was the love of money (root of all evil ... like in modern medicine) and compromise -- including teaching how to compromise others. He did the latter due to the former. "Rightly dividing The Word" and all ... I follow the example of my Master. He was more tender with the blatant heathens (most but not all the time) than with the religious folk. I am the same. One slanderer here likes to note how "angry" I am. Scripture says, "BE angry and sin not". Anger is not a problem, but rather what you do with it may be a problem. My Master is angry with the wicked EVERY DAY. However, I'm one of the most jovial people you would ever meet (if you would meet with me). My writing is determined as I'm directed by The Almighty. I do not EVER write without praying aforetime, then writing prayerfully, and praying before I hit the send button. I don't find you (or about anyone else on TT) to be honest in their motives. You don't have to live nearby in this information age. I do as much (or more) of my business by e-mail, telephone and letter as I do by personal visit. Of course, much more can be gained much more quickly in person than by other options. You, probably more than any else here (with the possible exception of Izzy's sweetie) could quickly grasp and utilize with yourself and others the things with which The Almighty has gifted me. It would be well worth your time to come up for a day, weekend, or more. As to "being open and honest with you" ... the role of prophets has traditionally (in Scripture) and historically not been well received by most ... Matthew 7:13-14 again in action. Now, for the rabble rousers here, being a prophet is not a big deal -- other than having a possibility for greater judgment (Yacov 3:1). A prophet is simply one role of the body, and the eye is not greater than the hand. People get so easily bent over one who is (or says he is) a prophet. That is a sign of their carnality. Ahava b' YahShua (Love in The SAVIOUR) Baruch YHVH, Chris Barr a servant of YHVH - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: 04/11/2004 8:12 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] More recent than 50 years ago? > Chris wrote:> > Also, I don't know ANY incurable diseases. As one > > of my early mentors and teachers, Dr. John Christopher, > > noted, "There are no incurable diseases but there are > > incurable people." Again, you don't make sense speaking > > of someone recovering from Crohn's and then calling it > > incurable.> > > > I've NEVER known a case of carpal tunnel syndrome, acid > > reflux, or allergies that was not healed when following > > proper nutritional instruction. More than 20 years ago > > I had a woman with an "incurable" case of genital herpes > > brought to me and that was cleared up, too (still have a > > very nice thank you note from that one). I've accomplished > > MUCH that medicine says can't be done. Most of those > > accomplishments have been by way of info about 50 years > > old and older. Raised up 8 children without doctor bills. > > Hosea 4:6 is still true, today.> > Chris, I think you probably have some helpful information for all of us,> but the packaging of it is somewhat troublesome. It is like everyone is> the devil who does not agree with you in everything you say. > > Personally, I live similar to you in that I don't run off to medical> doctors. I think the medical community tends to get too much of a free> pass in our society and alternatives are not given their due> appreciation. I fully realize that if someone goes to a doctor and> dies, people think nothing of it and it is assumed that all that could> be done for them was done. However, if somebody does not go to the> doctor but prays continually for healing and dies, people get up in arms> about how they should have went to the doctor. Truly our society> respects doctors more than prayer when it comes to the healing of the> body.> > I personally like the nutrition approach that you take. I wish you> lived nearby so that I could talk with y
[TruthTalk] Idolatry and Christianity
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua ! The prophet Hosea in chapter 4 and verse 6 directly addresses the sad state of Christianity today. The churches have been compromised through deception by the wicked one and his lies. Church people gather at the altars of Aesculapius. The healing snake god of the Greeks adorns the "emblem" of modern medical practitioners. The Hippocratic oath is often spoken of as a great thing. Medical doctors swear this oath upon graduation. Do you know how that oath begins? " I swear by Apollo the healer, by Aesculapius, by Health and all the powers of healing, and call to witness all the gods and goddesses that I may keep this Oath and Promise to the best of my ability and judgment ... " The Almighty ONE has given us the means for health but most have rejected it, and rather embraced that which is CONDEMNED in Scripture. We who are holiness peoples have high standards in so many ways but have been deceived by the serpent again through our eating (both what is put into our mouths and in how much we eat). I have been trying to get this word out for many years now. The few who have heeded this word of truth that The Almighty ONE has given me for His children have seen mighty blessings and even tremendous miracles. Sadly, they have been few while the many ignore the truth to their own despair. Children (and adults) have been taught about "good" drugs versus "bad" drugs. That is like speaking of "good" witches and "bad" witches. Do you know why the "JUST SAY NO TO DRUGS" campaign can NEVER be successful? The Saviour said to let your yea be yea and your nay be nay, and that anything else is SIN. Children are told, "JUST SAY NO TO DRUGS". Then when they have a headache and come to mommy or daddy they are told, "HERE, TAKE THIS ASPIRIN". The way that The Almighty ONE wired our grey matter is in black and white. Yes is yes, and no is no. If you "mix 'n' match" as it were then your grey matter cancels out the black and white messages and then it's "anything goes". Children are told that drugs are BOTH bad AND good. THAT short circuits the wiring. "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and SORCERERS, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and WHOSOEVER LOVETH AND MAKETH A LIE." (Rev. 22:14-15) SORCERERS = pharmakos (Strong's #5333 ... the same as 5332) from pharmakeus (Strong's #5332) from pharmakon (a drug, i.e. spell-giving potion; a druggist ["pharmacist"] or poisoner, i.e. [by extension] a magician:--sorcerer) AS IN PHARMACY/PHARMACEUTICALS.Interesting "company" that SORCERERS are placed in Scripturally. See also Rev. 21:8, 18:23 and 9:21. For instance, elevated cholesterol is not due to a deficiency of a particular man-made drug ($10 BILLION annual sales). It is due to a deficiency of an element created by The Almighty ONE. The cause is the intentional consumption of good food made by The Creator that is perverted by the creation (man). Eating refined (white) sugar and refined (white) flour is the source of the problem. The missing element can only be replaced in a very specific form. Other forms will do little, nothing, or in some cases even do damage. The foundation of modern medicine is rooted in the works of Louis Pasteur who named Roman Catholicism as his faith though he did not practice it. Catholicism was very influential in 19th century France. Pasteur never missed an opportunity to promote himself and his ideas amongst the influential from Emperor Napoleon III to leading Paris academicians and church officials. Pasteur was obsessed with fame and fortune. Meanwhile in the far corners of France labored Antoine Béchamp from that century to the next. He was born before and lived long after Pasteur. He was a man of great faith who credited The Almighty often in his scientific writings (amongst the most voluminous in recorded history). Antoine Béchamp received degrees and was a university professor in medicine, pharmacy, biology, chemistry and physics. Béchamp was the greatest scientist in recorded history though even his name is unknown to almost all. All the discoveries that Pasteur claimed (that were true) were stolen by him from Antoine Béchamp. However, Pasteur was not bright enough to understand them so his presentation of these truths was basically upside down and inside out. He published fictional studies that were never done. It is upon his twisted interpretation that our medical sciences are based. There is enough truth there to effect much change. Yet the error from this thieving liar has resulted in more human suffering and death than Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined. Béchamp was also the first casualty of the new "science falsely so called" (I Timothy 6:20) of evolution. He was the leading (and practically only vocal) opponent of evolution
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Children
All this worry because I recounted the answered prayers of an innocent child. I continually ask God to pour out His spirit upon my children and to bless them. Why would I or my child receive a snake when we ask for a fish? Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? MAT 7:9-11 jt: "Children are free to serve in many ways, just not in positions of authority and I don't see any indication that the Holy Spirit uses them in the distribution of spiritual gifts. ..."
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
Terry Clifton wrote: Dave wrote: So Terry, do you think a saved Christian who converts to Mormonism has lost their salvation? = God's ways are beyond my understanding Dave. Some places in the Bible make it look as though God will accept about anyone, no matter how screwed up their theology, as long as they have even a little faith. Other places indicate that God is big on obedience, and you better do it His way or go to Hell. Since there is no more important item on my list than spending eternity with my Lord (and avoiding Hell), I generally tend to go with the be obedient route. Why take chances? Paul told those who were calling themselves Christians, yet trying to gain favor with God by keeping the law , that they had "Fallen from Grace". In my opinion, Mormons do the same thing with the same result. Adding to the requirement for salvation says that Jesus alone is not enough. DAVEH: You are suggesting LDS theology adds to the requirements, yet you seem to have requirements for salvation too, do you not Terry? It seems to be a matter of where the line is drawn in your theological world. In the LDS realm, grace is the action Jesus did (I don't think I worded it very well) that makes it possible for us to be saved. Had he not atoned for our sins, nor been resurrected so we too can enjoy that gift.then nothing we could do on our own could bring salvation to ourselves. Therefore.it is by the grace of Jesus we are saved. That does not mean we do not have to meet certain requirements as many Christians believe. Jesus gave the requirementsand as I see it, many Christians want to minimize the importance and necessity of some of those requirements. I would hope that the Lord sees you as confused but sincere, and allows you to spend eternity with Him, but I sure would not bet on it, as your whole system of belief contradicts much of God's word. DAVEH: I respectfully disagree. No hard feelings, just the truth as I am able to see it. DAVEH: I understand. And that is why I ask the questions I do.I am curious as to why you believe the way you do, Terry. Terry -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Pseudo Science
In a message dated 4/11/2004 7:21:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Also God is the healer and any healing by other means is divination. God can't use a doctor? JS said: Those who use divination and evil spirits to are not and cannot be children of God. God does not offer serpents to those who ask for bread. jt: What are you saying John? Anyone can be deceived. Just quoting a little scripture. You can look it up in your Strong's. That is Christ's word on the issue. Sure, we can be deceived but the point is this: God deceives no one. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Children
In a message dated 4/11/2004 7:38:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: john: This is absolutely over the top, even for judyt. You must believe in childhood conversion inspite of the fact that not one such example is given in NT scripture. jt: I've never stated that children could not be converted John, what I am saying is that child prophets and child prodigies are out of character for the ministry of God's Spirit in the Church. Children are not responsible for their own spiritual life under Judaism until they are at least 13yrs old and even Jesus who had a full measure of God's Spirit did nothing publicly before the age of 30yrs. When did things change? judyt Apparently you have misread my post. I don't believe anything has changed in that regard. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Pseudo Science
In a message dated 4/11/2004 7:51:51 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: have trouble equating healing with bread. As to the statistics you supplied, is a ninety-five percent rate of failure is considered normal by those who claim to be healers? Were the failures the fault of the healer or the healee? Were five percent really healed, or were they deluded? Were all of the supposed healings something internal that could not be seen, or did someone have an ear reattached or a disfigurment such as caused by leprosy healed where the healing was immeadiate and obvious to everyone? If Benny Hinn and others like him can do these things, I know of some leper colonies where they would be most welcome. Terry I believe in present day healing. I attend a pentecostal assembly. And I have seen, sad to say, much tom-foolery in regard to healing. It does not discourage my belief in healing because that was Paul's problem as well -- so he and others caution against false prophets and the proper use and place of tongues (fo example). I also must admit that I do not believe in faith healers. I experience the filling of God during any worship/song service. With Benny, his ego clearly gets in the way of true ministry. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
In a message dated 4/11/2004 11:16:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: If anybody deserves to be excluded from TT for contrarian views, it is me with my LDS biased beliefs. FTR..DavidM has gone to extraordinary lengths to defend my presence in TT. Maybe BillT is talking about the ultimate conclusion that logic demands as a result of the "eprfection" theology as opposed to Miller's sense of benevolence. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/11/2004 11:16:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: If anybody deserves to be excluded from TT for contrarian views, it is me with my LDS biased beliefs. FTR..DavidM has gone to extraordinary lengths to defend my presence in TT. Maybe BillT is talking about the ultimate conclusion that logic demands as a result of the "eprfection" theology as opposed to Miller's sense of benevolence. John DAVEH: Though I may have misunderstood Bill's post, let it be known that DavidM has treated me very kindly and drawn sharp criticism from others for doing so. -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain Five email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
In a message dated 4/12/2004 4:26:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Bill, Funny, I thought the discussion between you and David was about Greek translations, but now I realize it was really all about you. Guess that shows what I know. You have no idea how shocking and hurtful your words, below, are. I am literally crying for David Miller right now because I know how hurt he will be to read this. I think TT is too much for me to take, Izzy I am thinking that if we can't be honest with each other, there is no point in this or any other discussion group. Bill's intend is well placed. Even though DavidM believes in sanctification, he is not perfect and his imperfection comes to light in much of his discussion. The shocking part of all this is knowing that each of us over step the bounds from time to time. David is not worse or better than most on this list. Nothing wrong with kind hearted criticism. I enjoyed the honesty on Bill's part. Some time ago, I decided to not argue with criticism coming from anyone when that criticism in about how I act or react to others. I counsel others often with this advise: "What harm is there in accepting the criticism of your [spouse] --- even if it is wrong what is the harm?" You are a sweet heart, Izzy..but Bill and David are big boys --- and it will work out just fine, from what I think I see in each of their lives.. (just trying to encourage). John
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
In a message dated 4/12/2004 6:23:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: So Terry, do you think a saved Christian who converts to Mormonism has lost their salvation? = God's ways are beyond my understanding Dave. Some places in the Bible make it look as though God will accept about anyone, no matter how screwed up their theology, as long as they have even a little faith. Other places indicate that God is big on obedience, and you better do it His way or go to Hell. Since there is no more important item on my list than spending eternity with my Lord (and avoiding Hell), I generally tend to go with the be obedient route. Why take chances? Paul told those who were calling themselves Christians, yet trying to gain favor with God by keeping the law , that they had "Fallen from Grace". In my opinion, Mormons do the same thing with the same result. Adding to the requirement for salvation says that Jesus alone is not enough. I would hope that the Lord sees you as confused but sincere, and allows you to spend eternity with Him, but I sure would not bet on it, as your whole system of belief contradicts much of God's word. No hard feelings, just the truth as I am able to see it. Terry I think Terry's answer is heartfelt and right on. but let me ask this, directed to DaveH: Does the Mormon church view as saved those who leave that church _ I mean, my wife was given a letter of excommunication when she left. And I am not just trying to turn question back onto you. Your question could have something do with our (yours and mine, for example) sense of fellowship in Christ? John Smithson
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
In a message dated 4/12/2004 9:21:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Judy, you are s right. I see quite clearly now the concern. I was talking about what happens to Christians when we fail to trust first. Pretty soon the accuser is having his way with us, and more than that, we are doing his bidding. We forget to identify the enemy. It's kind of like the Grinch that stole Christmas. We turn the whos into whats, thereby impersonalising persons. We start thinking about "what" they have done and forget "who" they are in Christ. The next thing you know is we're stealing the joy down in who-ville. The whole time our enemy is smiling. I am sorry I didn't communicate this better. Thank you for getting it. Right on. Bravo. actually, Bill, I even misunderstood this accuser thing. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Packaging ...
In a message dated 4/12/2004 4:41:34 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I follow the example of my Master. He was more tender with the blatant heathens (most but not all the time) than with the religious folk. I am the same. No He wasn't. Chris. He went after those LEADERS who OPPOSED everything He stood for. He treated Judas with a degree of tenderness. Upon His return from the grave, He never mentioned His displeasure at the fact that none of the disciples except John remained with Him to the end. Absolutely no one on this list comes even close to the description of those whom Him opposed. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Children
In a message dated 4/12/2004 5:11:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: All this worry because I recounted the answered prayers of an innocent child. I thought your testimony was great and not one negative anything came to mind. My children are likewise a blessing. If any of you are interested, allow me to announce that my son, Russ, is taking his band on tour. His music is Christian, all origianal, and the appeal is more to the youth. If you would use his ministry, let me know -- we can send a CD if you like. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Christian Perfection
On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 20:37:50 -0700 Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: [re:]..a saved Christian who converts to Mormonism... there is no way anybody could persuade such a person to do this you have no clue about the role of the Holy Spirit in conversion to Christ--try studying chapter one of Calvin's Institutes G ~ P 235
