date:20050215

In a message dated 2/14/2005 3:20:38 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


I think it is a refusal on our part to let the truth of who we are in Christ evaluate and minister to those infirmities; in fact, it can be nothing other than this, because there is no part of our nature which has not been taken up and redeemed in Christ.
 
Bill 


Yes indeed. 

Thanks

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Perversion

2005-02-15 Thread Judy Taylor






On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:15:17 -0700 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  jt: People who have been made free in Christ no 
  longer have "those tendencies" Jesus not only paid the price for 
  our sin, he also gives us freedom from the power of it in our lives when we 
  come to Him with our whole heart.
  
  Judy, do you live your life completely free of 
  temptation? If not, then do you deny that it is the things that you are 
  mostinclined towards that are now your greatest source of temptation? 
  Can one be tempted by something she has no inclination to do? Of course not! 
  
  
  jt: I'm not saying that I am never 
  tempted Bill or that I am not dealing with my own family stuff - that's just a 
  fact of life and God allows us to be tested. He also allowsSatan to come 
  periodically to check our foundation so we areforewarned. But I 
  don't believe that after a genuine conversion God leaves anyone with 
  uncontrollable tendencies (unless they want them).
  
  Jesus says temptation begins within us. If you 
  didn't have the internal desire, the "temptation" could not attract you. Jesus 
  said, "For from within, out of a person's heart, come evil thoughts, 
  sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, deceit, 
  eagerness for lustful pleasure, envy, slander, pride, and foolishness. All 
  these vile things come form within" (Mar 7.21-23. Emphasis 
  mine).
  
  jt:Basically 
  correct. However, when we are walking intheNew Covenant 
  promise we should have a new heart of fleshwith God's Law written in it. 
  (Jer 31:33) along with the power of the Holy Spiritto overcome. 
  This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 7 and the answer in Romans 
  8:1b
  
  And James saysthere is an army of evil 
  desires within you: "What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they 
  come from your desires that battle within you?"(Jam 4.1). 
  
  jt: In the 4th Chapter James is 
  speaking to ppl who are walking after the flesh rather than after the Spirit 
  and in Vs.4. he addressesthem asspiritual adulterers and 
  adultresses -friends with the world and enemies of God. These are not 
  ppl who have held on to their freedom in Christ - they need to 
  repent.
  
  To say that people who have been made free in 
  Christ no longer have "those tendencies," is to say that they no longer suffer 
  temptation. Are you willing to go this far? Do you have a tendency to be 
  prideful? Do you tend toward foolishness? Are you quarrelsome? Do you tend 
  toward any of these things?
  
  jt: I don't believe that people who 
  arefree in Christ no longer suffer temptation.Scripture teachesthat there is no 
  temptation that is not common to man - but we are never tempted beyond what we 
  are able to bear and with the temptation Godmakes a way of 
  escape.
  
  The tendency of "gay types" towards sexual 
  immoralitycomes from the same source as your tendencies; they come from 
  within them. And like you, if they are believers in Christ, they 
  nolonger have to give in to those desires, but to say that because 
  theyhave been made free in Christ,they must no longer be tempted, 
  is wrong. I hope you will reconsider your statement. Bill
  
  jt:I don't see a problem with 
  my statement Bill - rather I see a contradiction with what you teach because 
  if this problem was assumed or whatever the word you use is - through the 
  incarnation then why isn't it healed? In fact why isn't anything 
  healed? Why is the divorce rate and sickness in the Church as bad as it 
  is out there in the world? 
  
  My belief is that 
  Salvation is a walk or grace in whichGod does not free us from 
  everything instantly becausewithout a little maturity we would not be 
  strong enough to holdthe groundand resist the enemy - However, we 
  are freed from enough so that for the most part we have have victory in our 
  daily lives (when keeping our eyes on Jesus) and I have seen Him deliver 
  ppl from some heavy duty addictions (like homosexuality) immediately to 
  encourage and give them a good start. But we have to want God more than 
  we want our sin to stay delivered. I have a friend who was instantly 
  set freefrom years and years of addiction to tobacco and she was a very 
  heavy smoker. judyt
  
  
From: Judy Taylor 

Bill Taylor wrote:

Bill, there is no question that we can apply the 
word perverts to homos. They practice sexual perversion. It takes a 
humble man to agree with God, even when that doesn't sound politically 
correct or "nice". IzWhere is this "humble man" who 
agrees with God? In John's address he said that he was also speaking of 
people who have those tendencies but are not acting on 
them. That is not perversion, Izzy -- it may even be righteousness: 
"And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were 
sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the 
Spirit of our

Re: [TruthTalk] Original Sin

2005-02-15 Thread Judy Taylor





Bill writes:I think it is a refusal on our part to let the truth of who we are in Christ 
evaluate and minister to those infirmities; in fact, it can be nothing 
other than this, because there is no part of our nature which has not been taken 
up and redeemed in Christ.Bill 

jt: I think it is a refusal 
on our part to identify with the cross of Christ and to part with the old man 
who should bereckoned dead and buried so that we can walk in newness of 
life. It's akin togetting about withthis corpse on one's back 
and suffocating in the stench of rotting flesh. God has done all He is 
going to do, His hands are tied. If we love the old stinkin' flesh nature 
so much, He will let us have it. jt

Re: [TruthTalk] Sodomites

2005-02-15 Thread Judy Taylor






On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:47:30 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  In a message dated 2/14/2005 5:27:16 PM Pacific 
  Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:SODOMITE is a BIBLE word. 
  God calls them an ABOMINATION hardly a "NICE" thing to say A non practicing 
  Sodomite is still a Sodomite. When you steal that makes you a thief, if you 
  stop has your nature changed? The only thing that can make one righteous 
  is the blood of Christ not going cold turkeyJD: That last sentence, 
  Kevin, is one most of us agree with. Oh, wait a minute. I 
  see what you are saying. What you meant to say is this: 
  "The only thing that can make one righteous in all that he 
  does and thinks is the blood of Christ working to cause right actions on our 
  part, not 'going cold turkey' which cannot be done apart from the 
  blood. " I think that is what you meant to say.. Here is 
  what I intend to say --- 
  NONSENSE jt: He is saying John that a 
  Sodomite who is notout there recruiting young boys and men on the street 
  but who is eaten up with the desire to do so anyway is not a righteous 
  man. Neither isthe heterosexual married man who is constantly 
  sinning with his eyes and committing adultery in his heart. What is so 
  NONSENSICAL about this? - it is SCRIPTURAL. 
  jt

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

We should down play their sin and shelter them. we can win them by befriending them
Is this what you are leaning towards? Bill Taylor wrote: Terry wrote If I recall correctly, Bill, John said that theseparticular "Gay" people were unsaved. I believe he was patiently waitingfor them to come around. That, I believe, would indicate that their mindswere still desperately wicked, would it not? Terry, here is the sequence leading up to your statement: David wrote: Sorry, but I didn't smile. Kevin is right. Kevin is veryconsistent in that he teaches we should be intolerant. That is why he gives theMormons a hard time. Yet, Kevin is not as intolerant as the sodomites who preach tolerance, but then they commit all manner of intolerance, hatred and violence when someone opposes their agenda. David Miller. John replied: And they are homosexuals, not sodomites. And David
responded Why? What's wrong with using Biblical terms? Then John wrote: Well, for one thing, it does not include the lesbianside of the circumstance nor does it apply to a hugh population of gaytypes. Many do not practice sodomy. Jd To which Terry responded: How about perverts? That should cover thewhole filty disgusting bunch. Terry -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let
your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 2/14/2005 7:19:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
God's Spirit cannot work through hermeneutics and contextual studies of the original text? OH I have been looking for the Originals, you found them?Unless a bunch of word wranglers Collate a bunch of ms we can not get to the real meanings nuance?
JD SAYS Kevin, what is your point. You have gone to college yet you seem to angered at the very thought of higher education. You pretend to think you are on to something really important when you keep reminding us that there are not originals without being able to answer the question, "So what?" You prefer a bible that has RCC tradition written all over it's scholarship -- and yes, I have heard of the Church of England. What was the really big difference between the two, at the time of the KJV, again? I have forgotten. Something to do with the Pope and, and, what else?
KD says You have made an assertion what is the evidence?JD SAYS You volunteer as a member of an e-mail discussion group and then get all bunched up when someone wants to have a discussion with you that involves something more than, "Yeah, Kev, you are right, again." "Come, let us reason together" is good advice you despise. Here is a fact, Kev without going to original text, there is much that you cannot know about the biblical message. None of that study is necessary for salvation -- because salvation has nothing to do with 'study." and everything to do with being in the very person of Christ as you understand that to be. But, having said that, again, there is
so much that you miss when to presist in this willful ignorance you seem to find so holy. JD KD says First go ahead then show us just what we cannot know. get out your books and give us a whopper. I am sure everyone is curious about this. Just what are we missing? But you still have not told us where that "Original text is. While each Greek text has it's own readings which differ from each other in thousands of places, how do we know which is right? If the greek texts come from the Minority manuscripts which have been shown to be hopelessly corrupted how can a "scholar" turn them to pure? The following verse seems to say the Holy Spirit not Scholars will guide us into ALL Truth All this strife about words
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
KD says I find that there are many spirits saying they have something you don't have. All the cults Allure their prospects and beguile unstable souls. Some bite onto the hook. It is "desired" to make one wise."You do not have this want some?"LDS have additional scripture (maybe you are missing something)Allured through a Covetous spirit?
And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat
2 Pt talks of False teachers And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you
lest any man should beguile you with enticing words
For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

Sodomite is the Bible word unless it has been excised of anything pertaining to sex perverts like the NIV that had two practicing perverts on the commitee. Go ahead try to find anything against perverts in that book. Remodeling before they move in?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 2/14/2005 5:21:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Bill wrote:... he said that he was also speaking ofpeople who have those tendencies butare not acting on them.Nevertheless, I also will point out that 1 Cor. 6:9 condemns the effeminate right along with adulterers and homosexuals. Would you consider the effeminate to be perverts?David Miller. Here is one thing that I do knowhomosexuality [the NT word for, aahh, homosexuality] is one of 26 sins listed in Romans 1. And the point of Romans 1? Does the phrase " and such are some of you" ring any bells? Envy and disobeying our parents are just as bad as homosexuality... same list, same ultimate conclusion. I actually believe
that if we are given to confession [i.e. "if we keep on confessing .. " ] , two things happen; (1) we are finally honest enough with ourselves to admit that continual confession necessarily means continuing sin issues AND (2) He is faithful and just to keep on cleansing us !!! The kid who gets heated up with this particular lust, needs to confess and continually focus on the restorative grace of His God in Christ. He, nor anyone, must stop sinning to be saved. taking on the new nature will solve a lot of sin problems -- but those sins that so easily beset us They MAY take a lifetime to overcome. You think this to be a soft and permissive gospel? Try preaching it. Nothing permissive about. In dealing with those who are not miraculously redeemed from their sin, the only
process is that which I have referred to above it is true for us all. And, so, when that kid "stumbles and falls," he is called to return to His faith -- to hide in it. Do you know how many continue in this "permissive gospel?" Next to none. And why is that? BECAUSE IT IS NOT PERMISSIVE AT ALL, Enid. And it is the only gospel we have. And it is the only HOPE we have to be saved wholly by ANOTHER. JD
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Re: [TruthTalk] Perversion




Judy,

You started out criticizing what I had said about 
those who have tendencies, but are not acting upon them. You did that with these 
words:"People who have been made free in Christ no 
longer have "those tendencies" Jesus not only paid the price for 
our sin, he also gives us freedom from the power of it in our lives when we come 
to Him with our whole heart."

I then responded to you and asked that you 
reconsider what you had said. Instead of doing that, you pulled a switch on us: 
"I'm not saying that I am never tempted Bill or that I am 
not dealing with my own family stuff - that's just a fact of life and God allows 
us to be tested. He also allowsSatan to come periodically to check our 
foundation so we areforewarned. But I don't believe that after a 
genuine conversion God leaves anyone with uncontrollable tendencies (unless they want 
them)." Do you see how you change the dynamics ofour 
conversation when you add a new word to mine? You added "uncontrollable" to what 
I had said about tendencies,in effect producing the antithesis of my 
assertion that these people were no longer acting upon their 
tendencies.This is called a straw-man, Judy. It is proof positive that you 
cannot deal with what I said based upon the merits of my argument. Instead you 
have to change the argument to fit with your defense. This is no different than 
what DeHaan did with his shady use of Greek words. It is dishonest.It is 
also why I grow so weary of dialoguing with you. The rest of your statement 
rests upon this fallacy and is therefore of no concern to me. Please do not 
respond to any more of my posts for a while. 

Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Judy 
  Taylor 
  To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
  
  Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 4:15 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Perversion
  
  
  
  On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:15:17 -0700 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  

jt: People who have been made free in Christ no 
longer have "those tendencies" Jesus not only paid the price 
for our sin, he also gives us freedom from the power of it in our lives when 
we come to Him with our whole heart.

Judy, do you live your life completely free of 
temptation? If not, then do you deny that it is the things that you are 
mostinclined towards that are now your greatest source of temptation? 
Can one be tempted by something she has no inclination to do? Of course not! 


jt: I'm not saying that I am 
never tempted Bill or that I am not dealing with my own family stuff - 
that's just a fact of life and God allows us to be tested. He also 
allowsSatan to come periodically to check our foundation so we 
areforewarned. But I don't believe that after a genuine 
conversion God leaves anyone with uncontrollable tendencies (unless they 
want them).

Jesus says temptation begins within us. If you 
didn't have the internal desire, the "temptation" could not attract you. 
Jesus said, "For from within, out of a person's heart, come evil 
thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, wickedness, 
deceit, eagerness for lustful pleasure, envy, slander, pride, and 
foolishness. All these vile things come form within" (Mar 7.21-23. 
Emphasis mine).

jt:Basically 
correct. However, when we are walking intheNew Covenant 
promise we should have a new heart of fleshwith God's Law written in 
it. (Jer 31:33) along with the power of the Holy Spiritto 
overcome. This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 7 and the 
answer in Romans 8:1b

And James saysthere is an army of evil 
desires within you: "What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they 
come from your desires that battle within you?"(Jam 4.1). 


jt: In the 4th Chapter James is 
speaking to ppl who are walking after the flesh rather than after the Spirit 
and in Vs.4. he addressesthem asspiritual adulterers and 
adultresses -friends with the world and enemies of God. These are not 
ppl who have held on to their freedom in Christ - they need to 
repent.

To say that people who have been made free in 
Christ no longer have "those tendencies," is to say that they no longer 
suffer temptation. Are you willing to go this far? Do you have a tendency to 
be prideful? Do you tend toward foolishness? Are you quarrelsome? Do you 
tend toward any of these things?

jt: I don't believe that people 
who arefree in Christ no longer suffer 
temptation.Scripture teachesthat there is no temptation that is not common 
to man - but we are never tempted beyond what we are able to bear and with 
the temptation Godmakes a way of escape.

The tendency of "gay types" towards sexual 
immoralitycomes from the same source as your tendencies; they come 
from within them. And like you, if

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

Bill Taylor wrote:
Nothing here about patiently waiting for them to come around.

 

Two things to note.  First, patiently come around was my term, not 
John's  He put it a different way.
Second, this was some time back, when he was talking about his 
counselling business or ministry or whatever he calls it. You could go 
back through the archives, or you could ask John.
Terry

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

It was not my motive to nail you, Terry. If you think you are right, I will
trust your memory to suffice.

Blessings,

Bill


- Original Message -
From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 7:13 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers


 Bill Taylor wrote:

 Nothing here about patiently waiting for them to come around.
 
 
 
 Two things to note.  First, patiently come around was my term, not
 John's  He put it a different way.
 Second, this was some time back, when he was talking about his
 counselling business or ministry or whatever he calls it. You could go
 back through the archives, or you could ask John.
 Terry

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.




--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to 
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  In a message dated 2/14/2005 5:21:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  

  Bill wrote:
  
  
... he said that he was also speaking of
people who have those tendencies but
are not acting on them.

  
  

Nevertheless, I also will point out that 1 Cor. 6:9 condemns the effeminate 
  


  right along with adulterers and homosexuals.  Would you consider the 
effeminate to be perverts?

  


  David Miller. 
  

  
  
Here is one thing that I do knowhomosexuality [the NT word for, 
aahh, homosexuality]  is one of 26 sins listed in Romans 1.And the 
point of Romans 1?   Does the phrase " and such are some of you"  ring any 
bells?   Envy and disobeying our parents are just as bad as 
homosexuality... same list, same ultimate conclusion.  

I actually believe that if we are given to confession  [i.e.  "if we keep on 
confessing .. " ] , two things happen;  (1) we are finally honest enough with 
ourselves to admit that continual confession necessarily means continuing sin 
issues AND  (2)  He is faithful and just to keep on cleansing us  !!!   The 
kid who gets heated up with this particular lust,  needs to confess and 
continually focus on the restorative grace of His God in Christ.   He, nor anyone, 
must stop sinning to be saved.   taking on the new nature will solve a lot of sin 
problems--but those sins that so easily beset us    They  MAY 
take a lifetime to overcome.

You think this to be a soft and permissive gospel?   Try preaching it.   
Nothing permissive about.   In dealing with those who are not miraculously 
redeemed from their sin,  the only process is that which I have referred to above   
it is true for us all.   And, so, when that kid "stumbles and 
falls,"  he is called to return to His faith  --  to hide in it.   Do you know 
how many continue in this "permissive gospel?"  Next to none.  And why is 
that?  BECAUSE IT IS NOT PERMISSIVE AT ALL, Enid.   And it is the only gospel we 
have.  And it is the only HOPE we have      to be saved wholly by ANOTHER.  
 

Jd
  

The last line makes sense, John. We are branches. We get all we get
from the vine. Salvation comes to the branch via the vine. 

Having pointed that out, let me also say that the branch is then
either to produce good fruit or be cut off. No branch produces good
fruit on one twig and bad fruit on the next.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] The Nature of Jesus (God's image)





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  In a message dated 2/14/2005 5:36:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
Nice Isogesis


  
  
You glory in your "ignorance," and then use "isogesis."   Just showin off  ??

JD
  


There has been a lot of that lately. Not all of it by Kevin.

Re: [TruthTalk] Son of Man

You are about to see the difference between a theologian (i.e. BillyT) and a preacher (that would be me, in this case). William would actually know where to begin -- I do not. But here goes, anyway.

Taking one's concordance into hand and looking up "son of man" finds someone like me in a state of confusion. I have always thought of the "son of Man" as applied to Christ as a statement of His humanity -- his physical birth, the limitations of an earthly existence, His suffering and death for and on our behalf. And then I read that He (as son of Man) sits on the heavenly throne, is the judge of us all, is Lord of the sea, has command of the angels and has the same relationship with the heavenly Father as does the son of God.

With that same concordance in hand, as I stared at the biblical references, I realized that Christ is the one who applies the title to Himself, exclusively. While Luke, for example, is busy establishing Jesus as the " son of God" in his most unique of genealogies, Luke's Jesus is busy expanding on the idea that He is the Son of man. While Matthew concerns himself with the virgin birth, his Jesus is adopting the notion of "son of man." Likewise Mark and John --- all four authors concerned that we see Jesus as "son of God" (making Himself equal to God) while it is Jesus Himself, not the Four Authors, who claims "son of man" for Himself.

If one understands the connection between Dan 7:13 14 and the first century belief that this passage was more than a theocratic statement of one nation (Israel) over others (the four beasts), that it was a picture of the coming of the Messiah, then one realizes the cultural impact of this claim of Jesus -- that, as "son of man" He is the Christ of God.

One cannot read Dan 7 without seeing something of the divine in the one who is like a son of Man. It is inescapable. And, as one reads of the comments and implications of "son of man" in the public ministry of Jesus, the divine is, likewise, inescapable.

The "son of God" and the "son of man" are NOT two phrases that neatly explain the two very separate natures of the one we call Jesus Christ anymore more than the two words (Jesus and Christ) can be fully separated in our minds. The Son suffers and dies and is exalted. Likewise for the "son of man."

The difference between the two, perhaps can be seen in the fact that "son of God" is an observation made by others [for the most part], explained and verified by others and accepted or received by Jesus. It is the truth. On the other hand, "son of man" is a claim made by Jesus Himself. In it, he does not claim the virgin birth, per se, or an incarnate existence per se. Rather, He claims the title and ministry of "Messiah" in the phrase "son of Man." It is not that He is a part of a larger collective we call "humanity," but that He is Messiah and has come to prepare and receive His kingdom. Where the Jew of the day was looking for an earthly kingdom and a very physical king, he was offered a kingdom of greater proportions than he (the Jew) had understood, a kingdom that included (hopefully) all of mankind in and through a Messiah who would and could TRULY deliver us all from the bonds of slavery -- whatever that "slavery" might entail.

For this Jew, suddenly, the words of Daniel 7 and the symbols of divine involvement become something very different -- suddenly he realizes that the apocalyptic tone of the passage IS REAL. That the Messiah is not of divine quality but of divine nature -- that Son of God and Son of Man are not to be separated that the Minister of God and the Messiah of God ARE ONE AND THE SAME. He suddenly realizes that his Messiah is the Great God Almighty !! Praise the Lord.

The confusion I referred to earlier was ended the moment I realized that the phrase "son of Man " was not about "man" at all but about "Messiah." Of course, the incarnation and all that it supposes is inextricably related to "Messiah," but the emphasis is not the incarnation, but the Ministry. It is not just that God in Christ is our savior -- ,but that God In Messiah is our savior. God ties together the Divine, the Incarnate ultimately glorified AND the very existence and historicity of Israel as He brings together man unto Himself.

The Smithmesiter has spoken.

Re: [TruthTalk] Cult behavior

In a message dated 2/14/2005 3:10:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


John wrote:
I have some experience with gay types
as well -- almost none of them were
criminals

Gay types? If you mean that they were homosexuals, then they were criminals 
according to the law of God. Homosexuality is a crime according to God's 
law. In fact, homosexuality is a crime that deserves the death penalty.



So is any hint of sin. That is where the unmeritorious grace of God comes in, but you know this. My use of "criminal" has to do with my response to something Terry said and should have been dealt with in that context. Maybe your next effort will find you closer to the peg. 

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

In a message dated 2/14/2005 3:10:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Let me turn the bulb on if I may. Remember "God reveals things to the 
simple that He hides from the wise"? He was comparing folks with 
degrees and libraries and titles to quilt makers and rednecks and 
grandmas from Australia.



Putting me in the "wise" column is much too gracious an act on your part -- but thanks, anyway. 

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Sodomites

So you do not agree Sodomite is a Bible word?Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 02:47:30 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

In a message dated 2/14/2005 5:27:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:SODOMITE is a BIBLE word. God calls them an ABOMINATION hardly a "NICE" thing to say A non practicing Sodomite is still a Sodomite. When you steal that makes you a thief, if you stop has your nature changed? The only thing that can make one righteous is the blood of Christ not going cold turkeyJD: That last sentence, Kevin, is one most of us agree with. Oh, wait a minute. I see what you are saying. What you meant to say is this: "The only thing that can make one righteous in all that he does and thinks is the blood of Christ working to cause right actions on our part, not 'going cold turkey' which cannot be done apart from the blood. " I think that is what you meant to say.. Here is what I
 intend to say --- NONSENSE jt: He is saying John that a Sodomite who is notout there recruiting young boys and men on the street but who is eaten up with the desire to do so anyway is not a righteous man. Neither isthe heterosexual married man who is constantly sinning with his eyes and committing adultery in his heart. What is so NONSENSICAL about this? - it is SCRIPTURAL. jt
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Re: [TruthTalk] Son of Man

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 It is not 
just that God in Christ is our savior  --  ,but that God In Messiah is our 
savior.   God ties together the Divine, the Incarnate ultimately glorified AND 
the very existence and historicity of  Israel as He brings together man unto 
Himself.   

The Smithmesiter has spoken.  
 

==
I don't quite know what you m,ean here,John.  Messiah and Christ mean the same thing.  One is Greek.  The other is Hebrew.
 

Terry




 

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[TruthTalk] Authority over nature: Follow-up

2005-02-15 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: TTers, as most of you will recall, we had a very lively debate re the ability of Christians to exercise control over nature. This led further to persons questioning whether God uses these types of disasters to judge nations, and even whether He gets so intimately involved in these areas of our lives atall. Well, I feel it is instructive to give an update on the Ivan situation, and subsequent events regarding some of what I shared at that time.
Not long after Ivan struck, I was talking with a close sister in the Lord about the tragedy of Grenada and the decimation caused by that hurricane. How taken aback was I to learn that a ministry based in the U.S. with which she was very closely associated had an open air meeting in their national stadium in April of last year called on the Prime Minister to have a national day of repentance, stressing that God was willing to forgive the nation for it's evils and that He has a plan for them. Needless to say the Prime Minister never called such a day. It did reaffirm to me though, what I had been saying on TT, that God prefers to get the warning out to people before judgement comes, and also that God does allow these things as judgement over the nations, if they will not repent and if no one stands in the gap for them. The idea is, when judgement comes, the people understand that God is dealing with them.
Quite providentially, I had the opportunity to speak with two teachers from Grenada who were in TnT (Trinidad and Tobago) to collect relief supplies collected for the people there. I asked them about the meeting in the stadium calling for a day of repentance. One confirmed it, and further added that people are always coming to Grenada and calling for repentance, but no one takes them on. She then said that up to two weeks before Ivan struck, a man was walking the streets and calling on people to repent: same reaction!!! How amazing.
The U.S. based preacher returned to Grenada after Ivan and had another public meeting. This time people were packed in their cars outside the meeting grounds to hear what the servant of God had to say to them. Again he stipulated to the Prime Minister the need to call for a day of repentance. When the Prime Minister came to speak, he announced that there will be a day of thanksgiving... The whole crowd shouted him down with "Repentance! Repentance!"
It seems that God got His message accross.
These things are real, and storms et al don't come to clean up nature, or by happenstance but, in addition to judgement, also to clean up men's hearts. Why then should we fight them off? Because God prefers to have the storm of the Gospel going forth in the highways and byways, rather than having to allow the enemy to unleash his broadside against a people. When adequately warned, any attendant catastrophe can more easily be attributed to their hardness of heart and can evoke a wave of contrition as happened in Greneda. And that gospel offensive is the responsibility of those are His.

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Partial Repost: Re: [TruthTalk] Five Million

2005-02-15 Thread michael douglas

michael douglas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Michael D:
Anyway to some serious stuff. Ivan was originally due to hit Barbados flush. THe Lord showed to my prayer partner and me during a time of prayer, three Caribbean nations that were in serious jeopardy. They are Jamaica, Guyana and Barbados. This was at the end of last week (Thursday,I believe). He showed my prayer partner that the pride of the Bajans (Barbadians) had stirred His anger (they are actually a very proud people). Both of my parents are from Barbados, and many of their relatives live their. One of my sisters does as well.
This revelation came to him just as the Lord had me taking a bit of a strange turn as we were winding down a long session of sharing around the things of God aand prayer. The Lord just put Jamaica on my heart, and I started to prophesy over it and to take up a lamentation over it. The Lord had me speaking that He was in sadness over Jamaica, that it was a land that He loved and longed to draw her unto Himself. Alot of sadness was being expressed in that prophesy, but interspersed with joy. It took me by surprise, but I stepped out in faith and strove to flow with the Spirit. He then had me do something similar with Guyana (the only English-speaking Caribbean country located in South America). This was more than a bit unusual the way it happened. When I was done, I thought my prayer partner would have a further confirming word on those countries. Then he shared with me on what the Lord was showing him about Barbados when I was speaking over Jamaica.
Strange thing, this happened before this threat of Ivan materialized in the way that it did. You can imagine how taken aback we were as the events of this week unfolded, and finding that Jamaica, after the initial onslaught of Ivan, was directly in the path of this fella. Never did we realize how dramatic and immanent God's word to us was. Through it all we have prayed for God's mercy and fought the storm for dear life.
It still baffles me how folks can be so apathetic about something so serious. The people of Grenada were that way because they hadn't experienced anything like that for almost fifty years. Now Ivan has left 90% of the buildings either destroyed or badly damaged, down to the Prime Minister's residences (official and private) and the Governor General's. All that was left standing of the latter's is the foundation.
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Re: [TruthTalk] Perversion

This is no different than what DeHaan did with his shady use of Greek words. It is dishonest.
KD SAYS The editors of the DIFFERENT Greek Editions are Masters of the word game like masters of 2 card Monty. Watch carefully. 
Romans 3 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God
"... blood is used in this passage [Romans 3:25] in the same way that it is used in a number of other places in the New Testament, that is, to indicate a violent death. ... Although this noun [propitiation] (and its related forms) is sometimes used by pagan writers in the sense of propitiation (that is, an act to appease or placate a god), it is never used this way in the Old Testament." EUGENE NIDA A Translators Handbook on Pauls Letter to the Romans (UBS translations department Secretary and father of Dynamic Equivalency)
Where is God's SURE WORD?
I still am not settled with which GREEK? Especially troublesome is that they contradict one another! Aleph 1, Aleph 2, Aleph 3, B1, B2, B3, C, L, W, Textus Receptus, W/H, Scriveners, Alfred, Griesbach, Elzevir, Erasmus, Tischendorf, Lachman, Souter, von, Soden, Hodge-Farstad, If it is Nestles-Alandwhich edition1-27?
Which Printing? UBS-Aland, Black, Metzger, Wiggren?
Why have so many Scholars departed from the faith while sorting thru the pile?
By what Authority do "scholars" change the very words of God?
Silence is golden, No Answers from the cult of the Greek!
http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/coats-twolies.html
The Two Lies, by Daryl R. Coats The "doctrine" that an idea which can be expressed in Hebrew or Greek somehow can't be expressed in English (even though a large portion of Greek vocabulary has been absorbed into the English vocabulary, the largest of any language in history) is nothing but "scholarly" ethnocentricity. The fact that the Bible in English is still the word of God has not stopped a vast number of preachers, teachers, and scholars from saying otherwise: "What this means in the original Greek"; "a better translation would be"; "the Hebrew actually says . . . " I have yet to see an example of "going back to the Greek" that was not a waste of time for one or both of these reasons: (1) the passage in question was clear to begin with; or (2) the word(s) in question could be explained by a dictionary instead of a lexicon.
"Going back to the Greek" is usually a good, "scholarly, acceptable" way of getting rid of distasteful doctrines and/or setting up scholarship as a final authority. For example, here is how most scholars and expositors explain what "inspired" means: "The phrase 'given by inspiration of God' is all one word in the Greek, theopneustos - literally, God breathed." Yet when I look up "theopneustos" in my lexicon, I find only this: "given by inspiration of God." 
The Greek game is like chasing your tail.

Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




Judy,

You started out criticizing what I had said about those who have tendencies, but are not acting upon them. You did that with these words:"People who have been made free in Christ no longer have "those tendencies" Jesus not only paid the price for our sin, he also gives us freedom from the power of it in our lives when we come to Him with our whole heart."

I then responded to you and asked that you reconsider what you had said. Instead of doing that, you pulled a switch on us: "I'm not saying that I am never tempted Bill or that I am not dealing with my own family stuff - that's just a fact of life and God allows us to be tested. He also allowsSatan to come periodically to check our foundation so we areforewarned. But I don't believe that after a genuine conversion God leaves anyone with uncontrollable tendencies (unless they want them)." Do you see how you change the dynamics ofour conversation when you add a new word to mine? You added "uncontrollable" to what I had said about tendencies,in effect producing the antithesis of my assertion that these people were no longer acting upon their tendencies.This is called a straw-man, Judy. It
 is proof positive that you cannot deal with what I said based upon the merits of my argument. Instead you have to change the argument to fit with your defense. This is no different than what DeHaan did with his shady use of Greek words. It is dishonest.It is also why I grow so weary of dialoguing with you. The rest of your statement rests upon this fallacy and is therefore of no concern to me. Please do not respond to any more of my posts for a while. 

Bill

- Original Message - 
From: Judy Taylor 
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org 
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 4:15 AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Perversion



On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 21:15:17 -0700 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


jt: People who have been made free in

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

Bill wrote:
 The truth is that there are some who
 have these tendencies who have not
 or are no longer acting upon their
 sexual desires. Whether they have
 stopped that which was once their
 lifestyle, or they have never acted
 upon their desires in the first place,
 the question remains: Why must they
 necessarily be filthy, disgusting perverts?
 I think Paul thought they did not have to
 be; hence his statement: And such were
 some of you. But you were washed, but
 you were sanctified, but you were justified
 in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the
 Spirit of our God.

If an adulterer comes to Christ and no longer commits adultery, do we 
continue to call him an adulterer?  I think not.  In like manner, a 
homosexual who comes to Christ and no longer commits homosexuality should no 
longer be called a homosexual.  Do you agree?

The reason this is important is because there is this HUGE politically 
correct lie out there that homosexuals are born that way and that homosexual 
rights is a civil rights issue.  Laws are being changed all over the country 
to add sexual orientation to their anti-discrimination laws.

Homosexuality is defined by behavior just like the terms adultery and 
fornication.  If a female becomes born again, she is still a female, and if 
a black person becomes born again, he is still a black person, but when a 
homosexual becomes born again, he is no longer a homosexual.  Homosexuality 
is a sin, but being female or being black is not.  See the difference?

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

JD SAYS Here is one thing that I do knowhomosexuality [the NT word for, aahh, homosexuality] is one of 26 sins listed in Romans 1. And the point of Romans 1? Does the phrase " and such are some of you" ring any bells? Envy and disobeying our parents are just as bad as homosexuality... same list, same ultimate conclusion.
My Bible says:
Romans 1 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts
God gave them over to a reprobate mind
Being filled with all unrighteousness
If you want to be in the same league as these folk have at it man!
Are you given OVER to VILEness UNCLEANess?
Are you, Given OVER to a REPROBATE MIND?
Are you, Filled with ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS?
And such may be some of you I'll opt out.
Food for thought
Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 2/14/2005 5:21:37 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Bill wrote:

... he said that he was also speaking of
people who have those tendencies but
are not acting on them.

Nevertheless, I also will point out that 1 Cor. 6:9 condemns the effeminate

right along with adulterers and homosexuals. Would you consider the
effeminate to be perverts?

David Miller.

Here is one thing that I do knowhomosexuality [the NT word for,
aahh, homosexuality] is one of 26 sins listed in Romans 1.And the
point of Romans 1? Does the phrase " and such are some of you" ring any
bells? Envy and disobeying our parents are just as bad as
homosexuality... same list, same ultimate conclusion.

I actually believe that if we are given to confession [i.e. "if we keep on
confessing .. " ] , two things happen; (1) we are finally honest enough with
ourselves to admit that continual confession necessarily means continuing sin
issues AND (2) He is faithful and just to keep on cleansing us !!! The
kid who gets heated up with this particular lust, needs to confess and
continually focus on the restorative grace of His God in Christ. He, nor anyone,
must stop sinning to be saved. taking on the new nature will solve a lot of sin
problems--but those sins that so easily beset us They MAY
take a lifetime to overcome.

You think this to be a soft and permissive gospel? Try preaching it.
Nothing permissive about. In dealing with those who are not miraculously
redeemed from their sin, the only process is that which I have referred to above
it is true for us all. And, so, when that kid "stumbles and
falls," he is called to return to His faith -- to hide in it. Do you know
how many continue in this "permissive gospel?" Next to none. And why is
that? BECAUSE IT IS NOT PERMISSIVE AT ALL, Enid. And it is the only gospel we
have. And it is the only HOPE we have to be saved wholly by ANOTHER.

Jd
The last line makes sense, John. We are branches. We get all we get from the vine. Salvation comes to the branch via the vine. Having pointed that out, let me also say that the branch is then either to produce good fruit or be cut off. No branch produces good fruit on one twig and bad fruit on the next.Terry

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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

If he does not commit the act but still lusts after flesh, what then.
If he does not commit the act BUT:
If he is given over to a reprobate mind, what then?
If he is given up to ALL UNCLEANess, what then?
Can a reprobate given over by God be saved?Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In like manner, a homosexual who comes to Christ and no longer commitshomosexuality should nolonger be called a homosexual. Do you agree?I certainly do, -- AND NEITHER SHOULD HE BE CALLED A FILTHY DISGUSTINGPERVERT!Bill- Original Message -From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:42 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers Bill wrote: The truth is that there are some who have these tendencies who have not or are no longer acting upon their sexual desires. Whether they have stopped that which was once their lifestyle, or they have never acted upon their desires in the first place, the question remains: Why must they
necessarily be filthy, disgusting perverts? I think Paul thought they did not have to be; hence his statement: "And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God." If an adulterer comes to Christ and no longer commits adultery, do we continue to call him an adulterer? I think not. In like manner, a homosexual who comes to Christ and no longer commits homosexuality shouldno longer be called a homosexual. Do you agree? The reason this is important is because there is this HUGE politically correct lie out there that homosexuals are born that way and thathomosexual rights is a civil rights issue. Laws are being changed all over thecountry to add "sexual orientation" to their anti-discrimination
laws. Homosexuality is defined by behavior just like the terms adultery and fornication. If a female becomes born again, she is still a female, andif a black person becomes born again, he is still a black person, but when a homosexual becomes born again, he is no longer a homosexual.Homosexuality is a sin, but being female or being black is not. See the difference? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let
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Re: [TruthTalk] Greek Game

Would God use men like these?
The Filth and Corruption are everywhere around the 2 Card Monty Greek game

http://www.angelfire.com/la/prophet1/lex1.html
The 'Nazi connection' will shock Christians of even nominal sensitivities. Adolf Hitler's name is a household word, used synonymously with the consummate evil of this century. Gerhard Kittel's name is a household wordamong New Testament Greek scholars. It would seem the chasm between two such men would be monumental. Kittel edited the ten volume standard reference work used in New Testament Greek word studies, the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. The NIV translators relied on its judgements when selecting words, as do all translators. When a pastor or 'media preacher' elaborates with reference to 'the Greek', it is virtually certain he is citing a judgement about the correct meaning or choice of a word from this dictionary or an abridged compendium which has adopted its citations.





   Kittel's labors on his ten volume Greek New Testament dictionary began the same year he became Hitler's 'hired man'. Kittel's trial, conviction and imprisonment for his key part in the extermination of two thirds of Europe's Jewish population is a harsh fact, hidden to those pridefully seeking 'hidden' meaning in the Greek. This same pride impels New Age mystics in their pursuit of hidden 'gnosis' or knowledge.
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Re: [TruthTalk] Cult behavior

Kevin wrote:
 On what Authority do you CHANGE
 the Words of God?

I do not change the words of God.  God's word was not written in English. 
Furthermore, the English language has changed since the KJV.  Therefore, I 
explain what God's Word is concerning His use of the word hairesis.

Kevin wrote:
 1 Tim 6:1 that the name of God
 and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
 You still have not told us how one might
 Blaspheme Doctrine

Look at the entire passage you quote:

1 Timothy 6:1-2
(1) Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters 
worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not 
blasphemed.
(2) And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because 
they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and 
beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

The passage asks servants to walk with an obedient and submissive attitude 
toward their masters.  If, on the other hand, the servants rebuked their 
masters for their evil ways, and if the servants acted holier than thou to 
their masters, the masters would curse the church and the teaching of Christ 
which put in their heads the idea that the servants were righteous but the 
masters were evil and heading to hell because they did not embrace the 
teaching of Christ.  That is how one would blaspheme the doctrine of God. 
The masters would curse the teaching of Christ because of the disrespect 
they saw in its followers.  In order to avoid having some blaspheme the 
teaching of Christ, which is the way of Christ, Paul exhorts servants to 
count their masters worthy of honor.

Kevin wrote:
 Heresy means heresy except if if goes against
 your deeply held theology.

No, the word has changed over time.  It originally refered to a faction or 
sect, which is related to the modern understanding of an errant opinion. 
Sects are often created by disseminating errant opinions, and so the term 
heresy has come to mean an errant opinion, the cause of cults, rather than 
the creation of cults themselves.

I'm just trying to help you see the object to which Scriptures points. 
Scripture is concerned more with behavior than it is with opinions that are 
right or wrong.  Context has a big role to play here.  Paul emphasized 
justification being by grace through faith without works whereas James 
emphasized justification by works and not by faith alone.  In the right 
context, these doctrines both can produce good fruit, but in the wrong 
context, they both can cause bad fruit.  As you well know, nobody should be 
going up to a sinner at Mardi Gras and teaching them about justification by 
faith through grace apart from anything they do.

Kevin wrote:
 Changing the pure words of God to suit your
 tatse is a better example of scraping the bottom
 of the barrel

I am not changing the words of God.  I am simply helping you understand 
their meaning.  Using a dictionary is not changing words.

Kevin wrote:
 What version are you using mine
 says DAMNABLE HERESIES
 Can you find ONE version that says
 Damnable Factions other than the
 David Miller version?

Sure.  Following are a few of them:

Douay-Rheims:
2 Peter 2:1
(1) But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall 
be among you lying teachers who shall bring in sects of perdition and deny 
the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

The Message:
2 Peter 2:1
(1) But there were also lying prophets among the people then, just as there 
will be lying religious teachers among you. They'll smuggle in destructive 
divisions, pitting you against each other--biting the hand of the One who 
gave them a chance to have their lives back! They've put themselves on a 
fast downhill slide to destruction,

Weymouth Translation:
2 Peter 2:1
(1) But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be 
teachers of falsehood among you also, who will cunningly introduce fatal 
divisions, disowning even the Sovereign Lord who has redeemed them, and 
bringing on themselves swift destruction.

Young's Literal Translation:
2 Peter 2:1
(1) And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among 
you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive 
sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick 
destruction,

Kevin wrote:
 Gal 5 Now the works of the flesh are manifest,
 which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
 lasciviousness,...seditions, heresies
 Why is Heresy in this list of personal behaviors?
 So lets put your word in here
 FACTIONS, that they which do such things shall
 not inherit the kingdom of God. Seems seditions may
 be closer to what you are trying to prove.

I'm not trying to prove anything, Kevin.  The Scriptures are not open for 
private interpretation.  We need to read the text and let it speak for 
itself.  That is all I am doing.

Kevin wrote:
 Aniother [sic] Great example of ISOgesis [sic]

Aw,

Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus' Nature

Izzy wrote:
 David, then why does scripture say that sin
 entered the human race thru Adam (not Eve)
 since she ate the apple first, and she was
 deceived

Eve was made for Adam and from Adam; therefore, Adam was in authority over 
her.  Her sin is attributed to Adam the same way that we say George Bush led 
this country into war with Iraq, even though some soldier down on the front 
line fired the first shot.  Likewise, one of my daughters once went into a 
neighbor's house with a friend.  They brought the garden hose in with them 
and sprayed their living room down real good.  Guess who is responsible and 
who is blamed?  Guess who the man of the house came looking for? That's 
right.  Me.  I didn't do it, but because it was my child, it was as good as 
if I had done it.

This, incidentally, is the reason Paul can talk about Righteousness being 
attributed to us because of Christ's righteousness.  Just as bad things come 
upon us from those in authority over us, so do good things.  This is the way 
that God has ordained it to be.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

Bill Taylor quoted John:
 Well, for one thing, it does not include the
 lesbian side of the circumstance nor does it
 apply to a hugh population of gay types.
 Many do not practice sodomy.

I thought he was trying to say that there are many homosexuals who had not 
yet experienced anal sex, but perhaps only oral sex or some other of their 
various perversions.  John is sometimes very difficult to understand.  I 
still think he has been tainted by the homosexual agenda and their lies. 
Just the use of the word gay tells me that, and the use of the phrase gay 
types tells even more.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

John wrote:
 And the point of Romans 1?   Does the
 phrase  and such are some of you  ring
 any bells?

No, this phrase does not ring any bells with me.  That's the point, John. 
The Bible does not teach that some of us are homosexuals.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


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how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

David Miller wrote:
 ... a homosexual who comes to Christ and 
 no longer commits homosexuality should no
 longer be called a homosexual.  Do you agree?

Bill Taylor wrote:
 I certainly do, -- AND NEITHER SHOULD 
 HE BE CALLED A FILTHY DISGUSTING
 PERVERT!

Agreed!  I think Terry agrees with this too.

See, we are in unity and speak the same thing.  :-)

Peace be with you.
David Miller.

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Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

Bill Taylor wrote:
In like manner, a homosexual who comes to Christ and no longer commits
homosexuality should no
longer be called a homosexual.  Do you agree?
I certainly do, -- AND NEITHER SHOULD HE BE CALLED A FILTHY DISGUSTING
PERVERT!
Bill
 

===
I agree too.  Once saved, he is an ex pervert, just as I am an ex 
adulterer, fornicator, thief, liar, etc.
Terry

--
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ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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Re: [TruthTalk] Cult behavior

David says Aw, come on, Kevin, you can't even spell it right. Try "eisogesis" not "ISOgesis."

KD SAYS Aw c'mon try eisegesis NOT "eisogesis"
It is Anglicized as Isogesis or for the greekettes eisegesis
Please use the correct spelling if you are going to try to correct someones spellingEtymology: Greek eis into (akin to Greek en in)

You did change the PURE words of God from "Damnable heresy" to "Damnable Factions"
On What Authority, are you a translator as well as a prophet?

David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Kevin wrote: On what Authority do you CHANGE the Words of God?I do not change the words of God. God's word was not written in English. Furthermore, the English language has changed since the KJV. Therefore, I explain what God's Word is concerning His use of the word "hairesis."Kevin wrote: 1 Tim 6:1 that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed. You still have not told us how one might Blaspheme DoctrineLook at the entire passage you quote:1 Timothy 6:1-2(1) Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.(2) And they that have believing masters, let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved,
 partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.The passage asks servants to walk with an obedient and submissive attitude toward their masters. If, on the other hand, the servants rebuked their masters for their evil ways, and if the servants acted "holier than thou" to their masters, the masters would curse the church and the teaching of Christ which put in their heads the idea that the servants were righteous but the masters were evil and heading to hell because they did not embrace the teaching of Christ. That is how one would blaspheme the doctrine of God. The masters would curse the teaching of Christ because of the disrespect they saw in its followers. In order to avoid having some blaspheme the teaching of Christ, which is the way of Christ, Paul exhorts servants to count their masters worthy of honor.Kevin wrote: Heresy means heresy except if if goes against your deeply held theology.No,
 the word has changed over time. It originally refered to a faction or sect, which is related to the modern understanding of an errant opinion. Sects are often created by disseminating errant opinions, and so the term heresy has come to mean an errant opinion, the cause of cults, rather than the creation of cults themselves.I'm just trying to help you see the object to which Scriptures points. Scripture is concerned more with behavior than it is with opinions that are right or wrong. Context has a big role to play here. Paul emphasized justification being by grace through faith without works whereas James emphasized justification by works and not by faith alone. In the right context, these doctrines both can produce good fruit, but in the wrong context, they both can cause bad fruit. As you well know, nobody should be going up to a sinner at Mardi Gras and teaching them about justification by faith through grace apart from
 anything they do.Kevin wrote: Changing the pure words of God to suit your tatse is a better example of scraping the bottom of the barrelI am not changing the words of God. I am simply helping you understand their meaning. Using a dictionary is not changing words.Kevin wrote: What version are you using mine says DAMNABLE HERESIES Can you find ONE version that says "Damnable Factions" other than the David Miller version?Sure. Following are a few of them:Douay-Rheims:2 Peter 2:1(1) But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be among you lying teachers who shall bring in sects of perdition and deny the Lord who bought them: bringing upon themselves swift destruction.The Message:2 Peter 2:1(1) But there were also lying prophets among the people then, just as there will be lying religious teachers among you. They'll
 smuggle in destructive divisions, pitting you against each other--biting the hand of the One who gave them a chance to have their lives back! They've put themselves on a fast downhill slide to destruction,Weymouth Translation:2 Peter 2:1(1) But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be teachers of falsehood among you also, who will cunningly introduce fatal divisions, disowning even the Sovereign Lord who has redeemed them, and bringing on themselves swift destruction.Young's Literal Translation:2 Peter 2:1(1) And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,Kevin wrote: Gal 5 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness,
 lasciviousness,...seditions, heresies Why is Heresy in this list of personal behaviors? So lets put

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

Kevin wrote:
 What about the Adulterer in his heart.
 The man who only looks.

Such a man is guilty before God.

Kevin wrote:
 Jesus said this LOOKER has COMMITED Adultery.

No, he said he has committed adultery in his heart.  Not the same thing, but 
wrong behavior nonetheless.

Kevin wrote:
 Sin is a heart problem and does not have
 to be an observable action, it could just
 be a thought.

Heart problems are observable actions to God, and sometimes to us too. 
Haven't you ever watched a man commit eye rape before?

Kevin wrote:
 Why is this so hard to understand?
 Having some bad thoughts?.
 Action  Behavior show what is in the heart.

Nothing hard to understand about this.  Why do you think it is hard to 
understand?

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


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Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Son of Man

Kevin wrote:
 How can we trust you after this
 learned piece of work?

LOL.  Kevin, take it easy, man.  Back off.  This is a discussion list.  So 
the man became transparent and shared his thoughts, is that any reason to 
slap him down?  Instruct him in the spirit of meekness.  I had hoped to 
mention this Ezekiel thing too, but I was taking time to consider how to be 
meek and gentle about it.  Now you have blasted him, and what am I to do? 
The damage has been done.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers




Kevin wrote:
 Can a reprobate given over by God be saved?

Interesting question. I suspect you wouldget many different 
answers to this question on this list.

Peace be with you.David Miller.

Re: [TruthTalk] Son of Man

He holds himself up as a pastor.
He holds himself up as a teacherHe constantly slaps others and calls names.
I am taking it easy.
David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Kevin wrote: How can we trust you after this learned piece of work?LOL. Kevin, take it easy, man. Back off. This is a discussion list. So the man became transparent and shared his thoughts, is that any reason to slap him down? Instruct him in the spirit of meekness. I had hoped to mention this Ezekiel thing too, but I was taking time to consider how to be meek and gentle about it. Now you have blasted him, and what am I to do? The damage has been done.Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join,
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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

OK thank you David, this is the point of distinction I was trying to make with the fact that Sodomites are given over  given up by God. There is something about certain sins, that prevent his long suffering.David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
John wrote: And the point of Romans 1? Does the phrase " and such are some of you" ring any bells?No, this phrase does not ring any bells with me. That's the point, John. The Bible does not teach that some of us are homosexuals.Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
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Re: [TruthTalk] Cult behavior

Kevin wrote:
 Aw c'mon try eisegesis NOT eisogesis
 It is Anglicized as Isogesis or for the greekettes
 eisegesis Please use the correct spelling if you
 are going to try to correct someones spelling
 Etymology: Greek eis into (akin to Greek en in)

LOL.  Well, Kevin, I knew you didn't like Greek, so I was trying to use a 
popular Anglican spelling for you.  :-)

Kevin wrote:
 You did change the PURE words of God
 from Damnable heresy to  Damnable Factions
 On What Authority, are you a translator as well
 as a prophet?

Please define PURE words of God.  Is the King James Version the PURE words 
of God?  If so, which version?  Did you change the PURE words of God when 
you wrote above Damnable heresy instead of damnable heresies?

I did not change anything.  I was trying to help you see that the word 
heresies as inspired and written by the Holy Ghost is meant to convey the 
idea of factions.  Why do you so fervently resist this understanding?

I believe that we each have authority from God to read his word and 
interpret its meaning, whether that means going to the original languages or 
not.  One does not need to know Greek to arrive at what I have been saying. 
One only needs the Spirit of God to enlighten his mind.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

So Bill how many have you loved into the Kingdom so far?
What scriptures teach this Philosophy?Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




By the way, David, I am not a supporter of the gay rights movement for the very reasons that you articulate below; however as a Christian I am committed to treating them with dignity and Christian charity. I would like to share a story with you from J.B. Torrance's Worship, Community, and the Triune God of Grace (IVP: Downers Grove, 1996). I read this and could not get it out of mind; it continues to shape my thinking in this area:

The Two Hands of God. A colleague of mine for many years, Roland Walls, lives ... in Roslin village,a few miles out of Edinburgh. One day I noticed in his garden a piece of sculpture I had not seen before. He told me about it. A young sculptor, brought up among the Exclusive Brethren, one day confessed to the fellowship that he was gay. As a result, he was asked to leave the Assembly. In his distress, he found his way to the Roslin Community, where Roland found him on his knees in prayer in the chapel. The young man poured out his story and unburdened his heart. At the end of their conversation, Rolandsimply put his arms around him and gave him a hug! That hug symbolizedeverythingfor the man. He knewhe was loved, accepted, forgiven. He went back, found a block of sandstone and carved out a figure of the two Adams. They are kneeling, embracing one another. Christ has his head on the right shoulder of fallen Adam, and
 fallen Adam lays his head on the right shoulder of Christ, the second Adam. The only way in which one can distinguish between the two is by the nail prints in the hands of Christ. That sculptor saw himself in fallen Adam, and in that symbolic hug he saw himself accepted in Christ, the second Adam. There [in that sculpture] one sees in... Pauline theology... -- that what was lost in Adam has been restored in Christ. ... It is the biblical concept of "the one and the many" -- that we, the many, can see ourselves accepted by grace in Christ, the one mediator, who fulfills God's purpose -- to gather together all things in Christ, the head (anakephalaiosis) -- the doctrine of "recapitulation" [see e.g.,Eph 1.10].
Our job, it seems to me, as Christians is not to convict people of their sins; that is the work of the Holy Spirit. Our job is to love them, to accept them, to embrace them, as Roland did the young man, sinners that they are, that they might know the abounding grace and forgiveness of their Lord. I am very confident, David, that if we will content ourselves with doing our part, we shall discover that the Holy Spirit will have little difficulty in doing his.

Bill


- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers
 In like manner, a homosexual who comes to Christ and no longer commits homosexuality should no longer be called a homosexual. Do you agree?   I certainly do, -- AND NEITHER SHOULD HE BE CALLED A FILTHY DISGUSTING PERVERT!  Bill - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street PreachersBill wrote:   The truth is that there are some who   have these tendencies who have
 not   or are no longer acting upon their   sexual desires. Whether they have   stopped that which was once their   lifestyle, or they have never acted   upon their desires in the first place,   the question remains: Why must they   necessarily be filthy, disgusting perverts?   I think Paul thought they did not have to   be; hence his statement: "And such were   some of you. But you were washed, but   you were sanctified, but you were justified   in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the   Spirit of our God."   If an adulterer comes to Christ and no longer commits adultery, do we  continue to call him an adulterer? I think not. In like manner, a  homosexual who comes to Christ and no longer commits homosexuality
 should no  longer be called a homosexual. Do you agree?   The reason this is important is because there is this HUGE politically  correct lie out there that homosexuals are born that way and that homosexual  rights is a civil rights issue. Laws are being changed all over the country  to add "sexual orientation" to their anti-discrimination laws.   Homosexuality is defined by behavior just like the terms adultery and  fornication. If a female becomes born again, she is still a female, and if  a black person becomes born again, he is still a black person, but when a  homosexual becomes born again, he is no longer a homosexual. Homosexuality  is a sin, but being female or being black is not. See the difference?   Peace be with you.  David
 Miller.--  "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every

RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus' Nature









Izzy wrote:

 David, then why does scripture say that sin

 entered the human race thru Adam (not Eve)

 since she ate the apple first, and she was

 deceived



Eve was made for Adam and from Adam; therefore, Adam was in authority
over 

her. Her sin is attributed to Adam the same way that we say George
Bush led 

this country into war with Iraq, even though some soldier down
on the front 

line fired the first shot. Likewise, one of my daughters once went
into a 

neighbor's house with a friend. They brought the garden hose in with
them 

and sprayed their living room down real good. Guess who is responsible
and 

who is blamed? Guess who the man of the house came looking for? That's


right. Me. I didn't do it, but because it was my child, it was as good
as 

if I had done it.



This, incidentally, is the reason Paul can talk about Righteousness
being 

attributed to us because of Christ's righteousness. Just as bad things
come 

upon us from those in authority over us, so do good things. This is
the way 

that God has ordained it to be.



Peace be with you.

David Miller. 



David, do you mean my husband should take
the blame for my sins??? (What a COOL thought!)Do your wifes sins accrue
to your personal account as well? Izzy

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

David wroteI thought he was trying to say that there are many
homosexuals who had not yet experienced anal sex, but perhaps only oral sex
or some other of their various perversions.

Well, there you go: yet another reading on John's text. All the more reason
to withhold judgment until it becomes evident the meaning he is attempting
to convey.

Bill

PS The word gay, while not an accurate depiction of the homosexual
lifestyle, has nonetheless become a figurative convention in our language.
To use gay interchangeably with homosexual in this day and age does not
necessarily indicate any bias at all on the part of the speaker. BUT,
because it is no longer a social convention to call a homosexual a
sodomite, to do so is to demonstrate a strong and negative bias. This, it
seems to me, ought to be at least a heads up to you and others who may still
want to reach these people with the Gospel of our Lord (Moreover, the
question as to whether it is right or wrong for Christian to employ that
language in in-house discussions of homosexuality is quite beside the
point.)


- Original Message -
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers


 Bill Taylor quoted John:
  Well, for one thing, it does not include the
  lesbian side of the circumstance nor does it
  apply to a hugh population of gay types.
  Many do not practice sodomy.

 I thought he was trying to say that there are many homosexuals who had not
 yet experienced anal sex, but perhaps only oral sex or some other of their
 various perversions.  John is sometimes very difficult to understand.  I
 still think he has been tainted by the homosexual agenda and their lies.
 Just the use of the word gay tells me that, and the use of the phrase
gay
 types tells even more.

 Peace be with you.
 David Miller.


 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers













-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 2:51 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers



John wrote:

 And the point of Romans 1? Does the

 phrase  and such are
some of you ring

 any bells?



No, this phrase does not ring any bells with me. That's the point,
John. 

The Bible does not teach that some of us are homosexuals.



Peace be with you.

David Miller. 



It doesnt ring a bell with me either,
because it was misquoted to change the meaning:

I Corinthians 6:11And such were some of you: but ye
are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord
Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.



Izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers





















From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Miller
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005
3:14 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons
and Street Preachers







Kevin wrote:





 Can a reprobate given over by God be saved?











Interesting question. I suspect you wouldget many different
answers to this question on this list.











Peace be with you.
David Miller.



Kevin, that was my question to you
(remember the swine/pearls thing?) a while back. Izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Son of Man









Ill vouch for thatJD has
called KD ignorant twice since I started reading posts at this
sitting. I, for one, am tired of it. Izzy











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kevin Deegan
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005
3:23 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Son of
Man







He holds himself up as a pastor.





He holds himself up as a teacher
He constantly slaps others and calls names.





I am taking it easy.






David
 Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:





Kevin wrote:
 How can we trust you after this
 learned piece of work?

LOL. Kevin, take it easy, man. Back off. This is a discussion list. So 
the man became transparent and shared his thoughts, is that any reason to 
slap him down? Instruct him in the spirit of meekness. I had hoped to 
mention this Ezekiel thing too, but I was taking time to consider how to be 
meek and gentle about it. Now you have blasted him, and what am I to do? 
The damage has been done.

Peace be with you.
David Miller. 


--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend
who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
and he will be subscribed.









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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

Great. Let's let it go now, and on a high note! Cool.

Bill
- Original Message -
From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

 Bill Taylor wrote:

 In like manner, a homosexual who comes to Christ and no longer commits
 homosexuality should no
 longer be called a homosexual.  Do you agree?

 I certainly do, -- AND NEITHER SHOULD HE BE CALLED A FILTHY DISGUSTING
 PERVERT!

 Bill

 ===
 I agree too.  Once saved, he is an ex pervert, just as I am an ex
 adulterer, fornicator, thief, liar, etc.
 Terry

 --
 Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

 If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

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Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] Authority over nature: Guyana









Michael D, Im always so joyful to
hear from you! Thank you for the updates. 

Today I received this email from a
friend, and if it is true it shows that our Lord 

can still protect His own from the wind
and waves today:



Subject: Tsunami
testimony



God Protects His own!

We know that 80% of the town of Meulaboh
in Aceh was destroyed by the
Tsunami waves and 80% of the people also died. This is one of the
towns that was hit the hardest.

But there is a fantastic testimony from Meulaboh. In that town are
about 400 Christians. They wanted to celebrate Christmas on December 25th
but
were not allowed to do so by the Muslims of Meulaboh. They were told if
they wanted to celebrate Christmas they needed to go outside the city of
Meulaboh on a high hill and there celebrate Christmas.

Because the Christians desired to celebrate Christmas the 400
believers left the city on December 25th and after they celebrated
Christmas they
stayed overnight on the hill.

As we all know the morning of December 26 there was the earthquake
followed by the Tsunami waves destroying most of the city of Meulaboh and
thousands were killed. The 400 believers were on the mountain and were all
saved
from destruction.

Now the Muslims of Meulaboh are saying that the God of the Christians
punished us for forbidding the Christians from celebrating Christmas
in the city. Others are questioning why so many Muslims died while not even
one of the Christians died there.

Had the Christians insisted on their rights to celebrate Christmas in
the city, they would have all died. But because they humbled themselves
and followed the advice of the Muslims they all were spared destruction
and can now testify of God's marvelous protection.

This is a testimony of the grace of God and the fact that as believers
we have no rights in the world. Our right is come before God and commit
our lives to Him. Our right is kneeling down before the Lord almighty and
commit our ways to Him. He is our Father and is very capable to care for
His
children. Praise the Name of the Lord.

RE: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers










Here is one thing that I do knowhomosexuality [the NT word for, aahh,
homosexuality] is one of 26 sins listed in Romans 1.
And the point of Romans 1? Does the phrase  and such are some
of you ring any bells? Envy and disobeying our parents
are just as bad as homosexuality... same list, same
ultimate conclusion. 

I actually believe that if we are given to confession [i.e.
if we keep on confessing ..  ] , two things happen; (1) we
are finally honest enough with ourselves to admit that continual confession
necessarily means continuing sin issues AND (2) He is faithful and
just to keep on cleansing us !!! The kid who gets heated up
with this particular lust, needs to confess and continually focus on the
restorative grace of His God in Christ. He, nor anyone, must stop
sinning to be saved. taking on the new nature will solve a lot
of sin problems -- but those sins that
so easily beset us  They MAY take a lifetime to
overcome. 

You think this to be a soft and permissive gospel? Try preaching it.
Nothing permissive about. In dealing with those who are not
miraculously redeemed from their sin, the only process is that which I
have referred to above  it is true
for us all. And, so, when that kid stumbles and
falls, he is called to return to His faith -- to hide
in it. Do you know how many continue in this permissive
gospel? Next to none. And why is that? BECAUSE IT IS
NOT PERMISSIVE AT ALL, Enid.
And it is the only gospel we have. And it is the only HOPE we have
 to be saved wholly by ANOTHER. JD



JD, this
sounds like a continual confessing theology, instead of a repenting and putting
away sin theology. Sounds permissive as H-E-double-hockey-sticks to
me. Izzy

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

Bill Taylor wrote:
David wroteI thought he was trying to say that there are many
homosexuals who had not yet experienced anal sex, but perhaps only oral sex
or some other of their various perversions.
Well, there you go: yet another reading on John's text. All the more reason
to withhold judgment until it becomes evident the meaning he is attempting
to convey.
Bill
PS The word gay, while not an accurate depiction of the homosexual
lifestyle, has nonetheless become a figurative convention in our language.
To use gay interchangeably with homosexual in this day and age does not
necessarily indicate any bias at all on the part of the speaker. BUT,
because it is no longer a social convention to call a homosexual a
sodomite, to do so is to demonstrate a strong and negative bias. This, it
seems to me, ought to be at least a heads up to you and others who may still
want to reach these people with the Gospel of our Lord (Moreover, the
question as to whether it is right or wrong for Christian to employ that
language in in-house discussions of homosexuality is quite beside the
point.)

===
Go spend a few years living with them, Bill, then tell me all about it.
As for me, I will call them like I see them. A brood of vipers is still
a brood of vipers, even if you describe them as our animal friends.
Terry

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you
ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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RE: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers











===

Go spend a few years living with them, Bill, then tell me all about
it. 

As for me, I will call them like I see them. A brood of vipers is
still 

a brood of vipers, even if you describe them as our animal friends.

Terry





ROFL!!! Terry, you need to write a book. J Izzy

[TruthTalk] A vote for the right man:Joseph

2005-02-15 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]

   Subject: Fwd: Vote today For Joseph Smith Jr. as Greatest
American
   Subject: Vote today For Joseph Smith Jr. as Greatest American

   What a great way of expressing our love for our prophet!

   You probably have heard or seen this somewhere before, but the
time 
is drawing to a close to vote.  I think it would be an honor to have him

thus honored.

  Discovery Channel is holding a nationwide vote to find out who the 
Greatest American is of all time.  When you think of the Greatest
American, 
what single person -- living or dead -- comes to mind as it's best
example? 
  Someone who seized opportunities, saw things in a different way, or
stood 
out in a crowd? Someone who demonstrated determination, vision, and hard

work? These are the questions that the Discovery Channel is asking 
Americans to cast your vote.  Then, in June 2005, the Discovery Channel
will 
have a special program listing from 100 -1 all the top Americans
according 
to the voting results.

   Wouldn't it be great to have Joseph Smith, Jr. as one of those
100 
people?  Or, even better to have him listed in the top 25?  This year is

the 175th Anniversary of the Organization of the Church of Jesus Christ
of 
Latter-day Saints, and the 200th Anniversary of the Prophet Joseph
Smith's 
birthday.  How appropriate would it be if he were listed by the
Discovery 
Channel as one of the top American's of all time? I dare say that it
would 
be very appropriate and wonderful to see him included in that list.

  The only way it can happen though, is for you and any other friend 
you have to vote for him.  Please forward this e-mail to every LDS you
know 
so that we can show the world that Joseph Smith, Jun. is a Great
American 
and truly made a difference in the world.  Click below to go to the 
Discovery Channel web site to cast your vote.  You are given the chance
to 
put in 5 entries and to vote 3 times so be sure to use all of your
chances!

   Remember, enter the correct name of Joseph Smith, Jr.

   http://www.discovery.com

   Please pass this on!  Let's show America who a truly great
American 
is and what he has done for this country! 

--
Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know 
how you ought to answer every man.  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

Bill says BUT, because it is no longer a social convention to call a homosexual a"sodomite," to do so is to demonstrate a strong and negative bias.
KD says Therefore the Bible is outdated and needs to be updated to keep up with the times Since the book still uses the word Sodomite if we do not update it; that would leave people thinking God has Strong Negative Bias towards this behavior.
Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
David wrote I thought he was trying to say that there are manyhomosexuals who had not yet experienced anal sex, but perhaps only oral sexor some other of their various perversions.Well, there you go: yet another reading on John's text. All the more reasonto withhold judgment until it becomes evident the meaning he is attemptingto convey.BillPS The word "gay," while not an accurate depiction of the homosexuallifestyle, has nonetheless become a figurative convention in our language.To use "gay" interchangeably with "homosexual" in this day and age does notnecessarily indicate any bias at all on the part of the speaker. BUT,because it is no longer a social convention to call a homosexual a"sodomite," to do so is to demonstrate a strong and negative bias. This, itseems to me, ought to be at least a heads up to you and
others who may stillwant to reach these people with the Gospel of our Lord (Moreover, thequestion as to whether it is right or wrong for Christian to employ thatlanguage in in-house discussions of homosexuality is quite beside thepoint.)- Original Message -From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 1:47 PMSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers Bill Taylor quoted John: Well, for one thing, it does not include the lesbian side of the circumstance nor does it apply to a hugh population of gay types. Many do not practice sodomy. I thought he was trying to say that there are many homosexuals who had not yet experienced anal sex, but perhaps only oral sex or some other of their various perversions. John is sometimes very difficult to understand. I still
think he has been tainted by the homosexual agenda and their lies. Just the use of the word "gay" tells me that, and the use of the phrase"gay types" tells even more. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you mayknow how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6)http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have afriend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

BILL says Our job is to love them, to accept them, to embrace them,

KD says Maybe you should organize a group of Christians  createa HUG Ministry. Find the next Sodmite parade or Leather gathering and give them all big christian Love Hugs.

"Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions." G K Chesterton

"Political correctness does not legislate tolerance; it only organizes hatred" Jacques Barzun

In the world it is called Tolerance, but in hell it is called Despair, the sin that believes in nothing, cares for nothing, seeks to know nothing, interferes with nothing, enjoys nothing, hates nothing, finds purpose in nothing, lives for nothing, and remains alive because there is nothing for which it will die. Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:




By the way, David, I am not a supporter of the gay rights movement for the very reasons that you articulate below; however as a Christian I am committed to treating them with dignity and Christian charity. I would like to share a story with you from J.B. Torrance's Worship, Community, and the Triune God of Grace (IVP: Downers Grove, 1996). I read this and could not get it out of mind; it continues to shape my thinking in this area:

The Two Hands of God. A colleague of mine for many years, Roland Walls, lives ... in Roslin village,a few miles out of Edinburgh. One day I noticed in his garden a piece of sculpture I had not seen before. He told me about it. A young sculptor, brought up among the Exclusive Brethren, one day confessed to the fellowship that he was gay. As a result, he was asked to leave the Assembly. In his distress, he found his way to the Roslin Community, where Roland found him on his knees in prayer in the chapel. The young man poured out his story and unburdened his heart. At the end of their conversation, Rolandsimply put his arms around him and gave him a hug! That hug symbolizedeverythingfor the man. He knewhe was loved, accepted, forgiven. He went back, found a block of sandstone and carved out a figure of the two Adams. They are kneeling, embracing one another. Christ has his head on the right shoulder of fallen Adam, and
 fallen Adam lays his head on the right shoulder of Christ, the second Adam. The only way in which one can distinguish between the two is by the nail prints in the hands of Christ. That sculptor saw himself in fallen Adam, and in that symbolic hug he saw himself accepted in Christ, the second Adam. There [in that sculpture] one sees in... Pauline theology... -- that what was lost in Adam has been restored in Christ. ... It is the biblical concept of "the one and the many" -- that we, the many, can see ourselves accepted by grace in Christ, the one mediator, who fulfills God's purpose -- to gather together all things in Christ, the head (anakephalaiosis) -- the doctrine of "recapitulation" [see e.g.,Eph 1.10].
Our job, it seems to me, as Christians is not to convict people of their sins; that is the work of the Holy Spirit. Our job is to love them, to accept them, to embrace them, as Roland did the young man, sinners that they are, that they might know the abounding grace and forgiveness of their Lord. I am very confident, David, that if we will content ourselves with doing our part, we shall discover that the Holy Spirit will have little difficulty in doing his.

Bill


- Original Message - 
From: "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers
 In like manner, a homosexual who comes to Christ and no longer commits homosexuality should no longer be called a homosexual. Do you agree?   I certainly do, -- AND NEITHER SHOULD HE BE CALLED A FILTHY DISGUSTING PERVERT!  Bill - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 12:42 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street PreachersBill wrote:   The truth is that there are some who   have these tendencies who have
 not   or are no longer acting upon their   sexual desires. Whether they have   stopped that which was once their   lifestyle, or they have never acted   upon their desires in the first place,   the question remains: Why must they   necessarily be filthy, disgusting perverts?   I think Paul thought they did not have to   be; hence his statement: "And such were   some of you. But you were washed, but   you were sanctified, but you were justified   in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the   Spirit of our God."   If an adulterer comes to Christ and no longer commits adultery, do we  continue to call him an adulterer? I think not. In like manner, a  homosexual who comes to Christ and no longer commits homosexuality
 should no  longer be called a homosexual. Do you agree?   The reason this is important is because there is this HUGE politically  correct lie out there that homosexuals are born that way and that homosexual  rights is a civil rights issue. Laws

Re: [TruthTalk] Cult behavior

I have a Perfect Savoir who has put His Pure Words in a Perfect bookTerry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Kevin Deegan wrote:Pure word of God is what I hold in my hands. AV1611 I did not intend to change heresy to heresies just a typo as you know i make a lot o them! I fervently resist because I was enlightened to the fact that I have the very words of God in my hand. Those that want to deny such have an agenda. If it says heresy then heresy it is. My God was very capable of using the word heresy or the word sect. He was active in its transmission translation. Anyone that thinks God is capable of creating ALL complexities of the things laws of the universe but is incapable of Preserving His word and presenting His word to me in my hand in Black White is ready for the funny farmI do not have to worry that the Greek says or the originals (which do not exist anywhere) sayThe very word of God says in my language
that I can understand so that I can do it!If we can not trust the book then we of all people are most miserable.My very salvation depends on the words of life written down in that book. I have a sure word not a almost perfect book.It is like a contract Kevin, you are playing my song. Shout it from the house tops.Terry--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
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Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

Yes he came to seek save the lost. But where is this love gospel in the scripture you quote?

If this is the True way, what of all the old divines of every stripe, they had it wrong by preaching against sin naming names?

"In my preaching of the Word, I took special notice of this one thing, namely, that the Lord did lead me to begin where His Word begins with sinners; that is, to condemn all flesh, and to open and allege that the curse of God, by the Law, doth belong to and lay hold on all men as they come into the world, because of sin." John Bunyan

The man who does not know the nature of the Law, cannot know the nature of sin. John Bunyon

"Be cold, sober, wise, circumspect. Keep yourself low by the ground avoiding high questions. Expound the Law truly and open the veil of Moses to condemn all flesh and prove all men sinners, and set at broach the mercy of our Lord Jesus, and let wounded consciences drink of Him." William Tyndale.
"Before I preach love, mercy, and grace, I must preach sin, Law, and judgement." -John Wesley

"Evermore the Law must prepare the way for the gospel. To overlook this in instructing souls is almost certain to result in false hope, the introduction of a false standard of Christian experience, and to fill the Church with false converts... Time will make this plain." -Charles Finney ( I guess timehas)
Robbie Flockart, who preached for years in the Edinboro streets, says, It is in vain to sew with the silk thread of the gospel, unless you use the sharp needle of the law.
"Some of my brethren do not care to preach eternal wrath and its terrors. This is a cruel mercy, for they ruin souls by hiding from them their ruin. If they must needs try to sew without a needle, I cannot help it; but I do not mean to be so foolish myself; my needle may be old-fashioned, but it is sharp, and when it carries with it the silken thread of the gospel, I am sure good work is done by it. You cannot get a harvest if you are afraid of disturbing the soil, nor can you save souls if you never warn them of hell fire. We must tell the sinner what God has revealed about sin, righteousness, and judgment to come. Still, brethren, we must not plough all day. No, no, the preaching of the law is only preparatory to the preaching of the gospel" Charles Spurgeon

"Lower the Law, and you dim the light by which man perceives his guilt. This is a very serious loss to the sinner, rather than a gain; for it lessens the likelihood of his conviction and conversion... I say you have deprived the gospel of its ablest auxiliary [most powerful weapon] when you have set aside the Law. You have taken away from it the schoolmaster that is to bring men to Christ... They will never accept grace till they tremble before a just and holy Law. Therefore the Law serves a most necessary and blessed purpose and it must not be removed from its place" -Charles Spurgeon Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Kevin asks What scriptures teach this Philosophy?

Now behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus who was a chief tax collector, and he was rich.And he sought to see who Jesus was, but could not because of the crowd, for he was of short stature.So he ran ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see Him, for He was going to pass that way.And when Jesus came to the place, He looked up and saw him, and said to him, "Zacchaeus, make haste and come down, for today I must stay at your house."So he made haste and came down, and received Him joyfully.But when they saw it, they all complained, saying, "He has gone to be a guest with a man who is a sinner."Then Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord, I give half of my goods to the poor; and if I have taken anything from anyone by false accusation, I restore fourfold."And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham;"for the Son of Man has
come to seek and to save that which was lost." -- Luke 19:2-10Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

By the way, David, I am not a supporter of the gay rights movement for the very reasons that you articulate below; however as a Christian I am committed to treating them with dignity and Christian charity. I would like to share a story with you from J.B. Torrance's Worship, Community, and the Triune God of Grace (IVP: Downers Grove, 1996). I read this and could not get it out of mind; it continues to shape my thinking in this area:

The Two Hands of God. A colleague of mine for many years, Roland Walls, lives ... in Roslin village,a few miles out of Edinburgh. One day I noticed in his garden a piece of sculpture I had not seen before. He told me about it. A young sculptor, brought up among the Exclusive Brethren, one day confessed to the fellowship that he was gay. As a result, he was asked to leave the Assembly. In his distress, he found his way to the Roslin Community, where Roland found him on his knees in prayer in the chapel. The young man poured out his story and unburdened his

RE: [TruthTalk] Son of Man

"When respect is not afforded to those so well-deserved, it speaks ill of the one who feels he cannot afford to give it."ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:









Ill vouch for thatJD has called KD ignorant twice since I started reading posts at this sitting. I, for one, am tired of it. Izzy





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 3:23 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Son of Man


He holds himself up as a pastor.

He holds himself up as a teacherHe constantly slaps others and calls names.

I am taking it easy.

David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Kevin wrote: How can we trust you after this learned piece of work?LOL. Kevin, take it easy, man. Back off. This is a discussion list. So the man became transparent and shared his thoughts, is that any reason to slap him down? Instruct him in the spirit of meekness. I had hoped to mention this Ezekiel thing too, but I was taking time to consider how to be meek and gentle about it. Now you have blasted him, and what am I to do? The damage has been done.Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have
 a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.



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RE: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

Yes I remember. I preach to every one that is the commission it is their responsibility to see what they do with it. Only God knows which are reprobates.There are also some the bible calls simple ones who have not yet started the slide downward.There is ample evidence in the bible that we are to dust off our feet also when the message is not recieved.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:















From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David MillerSent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 3:14 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers


Kevin wrote:

 Can a reprobate given over by God be saved?



Interesting question. I suspect you wouldget many different answers to this question on this list.



Peace be with you.David Miller.

Kevin, that was my question to you (remember the swine/pearls thing?) a while back. Izzy
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Re: [TruthTalk] Greek Game

In a message dated 2/14/2005 3:10:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Since the greekophiles use THE original text, we know there is only ONE original text, right?


Kevin -- no one argues with you about the absense of the original text. It is nowhere to be found. All the more reason to compare what we do have. That is how we got the English bible, whether KJV or the NASV or whatever. If you cannot understand this, you really do not need to be involved in any kind of teaching. 

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

In a message dated 2/15/2005 5:38:39 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Sodomite is the Bible word unless it has been excised of anything pertaining to sex perverts like the NIV that had two practicing perverts on the commitee. Go ahead try to find anything against perverts in that book. Remodeling before they move in?




No wonder you think the KJV is inspired -- it may be the only translation that translates the Hebrew word (qadesh) "sodomites." Such is not the case in the New KJV, NIV, NASV -- probably the RSV. The reason? Because "qadesh" actually references the act of sodomy AND prostitution in pagan religious services. The translation "sodomite" is much to limiting as a translation. 

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

In a message dated 2/15/2005 6:14:16 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

counselling business or ministry or whatever he calls it. You could go 
back through the archives, or you could ask John.


I am a finish carpenter and cabinet maker. Retired pastor after 14 years but still licensed. A member of the American Association of Christian Counselors -- using that occasion as a ministry. It is not a business. I do not put that out as making me something special. If more qualified Disciples would take the time to qualify themselves as "pastoral counselors," this world would be a better place and an avenue for sharing the Living Christ would be broader opportunity. 

I have "specialized" in marital counseling and the sin of sexual perversion. You would agree with nearly everything I say in marriage counseling; you would be very disagreeable with what I counsel to those who have sexual sin issues -- so, for the most part, I keep that aspect of the ministry to myself. 

I have seen my name (?) in more than one post between you and Bill about something that I said some time ago about the homosexuals. If it is important and I can help with whatever I said, let me know. 

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Son of Man

In a message dated 2/15/2005 10:40:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


" It is not 
just that God in Christ is our savior -- ,but that God In Messiah is our 
savior. God ties together the Divine, the Incarnate ultimately glorified AND 
the very existence and historicity of Israel as He brings together man unto 
Himself. 

The Smithmesiter has spoken. 
 

==

I don't quite know what you m,ean here,John. Messiah and Christ mean the same thing. One is Greek. The other is Hebrew.
 

Terry




Yes, I should have said " ..God in Jesus as the son of God .." I will make note of that. Thanks

Jd

Re: [TruthTalk] Perversion

In a message dated 2/15/2005 11:41:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

This is no different than what DeHaan did with his shady use of Greek words. It is dishonest.
KD SAYS The editors of the DIFFERENT Greek Editions are Masters of the word game like masters of 2 card Monty. Watch carefully.

Romans 3 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

"... blood is used in this passage [Romans 3:25] in the same way that it is used in a number of other places in the New Testament, that is, to indicate a violent death. ... Although this noun [propitiation] (and its related forms) is sometimes used by pagan writers in the sense of propitiation (that is, an act to appease or placate a god), it is never used this way in the Old Testament." EUGENE NIDA A Translators Handbook on Pauls Letter to the Romans (UBS translations department Secretary and father of Dynamic Equivalency)
Where is God's SURE WORD?

I still am not settled with which GREEK? Especially troublesome is that they contradict one another! Aleph 1, Aleph 2, Aleph 3, B1, B2, B3, C, L, W, Textus Receptus, W/H, Scriveners, Alfred, Griesbach, Elzevir, Erasmus, Tischendorf, Lachman, Souter, von, Soden, Hodge-Farstad, If it is Nestles-Aland which edition 1-27?

Which Printing? UBS-Aland, Black, Metzger, Wiggren?

Why have so many Scholars departed from the faith while sorting thru the pile?

By what Authority do "scholars" change the very words of God?

Silence is golden, No Answers from the cult of the Greek!

I would discuss this with someone of understanding, Kevin. You consistently ignore the fact that your precious KJV would not exist apart from the hermeneutical practices and scholarship you deny. The only people I have ever met who think the way you do are Missionary Baptists. Is this your background?

But until you explain how it is that the scholarship of those who gave you the KJV is acceiptable but all other scholarship is hell bound, I have no desire to discuss this

Re: [TruthTalk] Son of Man

In a message dated 2/15/2005 12:26:16 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


With that same concordance in hand, as I stared at the biblical references, I realized that Christ is the one who applies the title to Himself, exclusively.
 KD SAYS Ye do err not knowing the scripture "Pastor"

 Ever read Ezekial in the OT?

 He is called "son of man" 4 times in chapter two alone. 6 times in Chap 3

 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.

 How can we trust you after this learned piece of work?



So you can count. So what? It has nothing to do with what I wrote. Your tone makes me think you disagree with the article. If so, what? As far as "trust," you and I have nothing in commom, Kevin. Trust is not an issue. We are only opponents and you have made that abundantly clear. 

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

In a message dated 2/15/2005 12:48:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Bill Taylor quoted John:
Well, for one thing, it does not include the
lesbian side of the circumstance nor does it
apply to a hugh population of gay types.
Many do not practice sodomy.

I thought he was trying to say that there are many homosexuals who had not 
yet experienced anal sex, but perhaps only oral sex or some other of their 
various perversions. John is sometimes very difficult to understand. I 
still think he has been tainted by the homosexual agenda and their lies. 
Just the use of the word "gay" tells me that, and the use of the phrase "gay 
types" tells even more.


It might be time for you to retire from the "prophet" business. You have expressed a personal judgment about me, and then offered a pretense for that determination. Very sad. 

JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

In a message dated 2/15/2005 1:56:40 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Our job, it seems to me, as Christians is not to convict people of their sins; that is the work of the Holy Spirit. Our job is to love them, to accept them, to embrace them, as Roland did the young man, sinners that they are, that they might know the abounding grace and forgiveness of their Lord. I am very confident, David, that if we will content ourselves with doing our part, we shall discover that the Holy Spirit will have little difficulty in doing his.
 


Excellent.

Re: [TruthTalk] Son of Man

In a message dated 2/15/2005 2:50:20 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


 Ill vouch for thatJD has called KD ignorant twice since I started reading posts at this sitting. I, for one, am tired of it. Izzy

 




No I haven't. His comments are incredibly ignorant and I am getting tired of THAT

jd

RE: [TruthTalk] A vote for the right man:Joseph









You've GOT to be kidding. Hellloo!



-Original Message-



 Subject: Fwd: Vote today For Joseph Smith Jr. as Greatest

American

 Subject: Vote today For Joseph Smith Jr. as Greatest
American



 What a great way of expressing our love for our prophet!

RE: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

























BILL says Our job is to love them, to accept them, to
embrace them,











KD says Maybe you should organize a group of Christians 
createa HUG Ministry. Find the next Sodmite parade or Leather gathering
and give them all big christian Love Hugs.



ROFL!!!

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

In a message dated 2/15/2005 3:06:56 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

JD, this sounds like a continual confessing theology, instead of a repenting and putting away sin theology. Sounds permissive as H-E-double-hockey-sticks to me. Izzy



It is biblical, Izzy. Pure D bible. In I JO 1:9, the confession IS continual. No need to cuss, or maybe that is permited in your theology. 

Jd

RE: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers





















From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin Deegan
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005
8:38 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons
and Street Preachers







Bill says BUT, because it is no longer a social
convention to call a homosexual a
sodomite, to do so is to
demonstrate a strong and negative bias.



KD says
Therefore the Bible is outdated and needs to be updated to keep up with the
times Since the book still uses the word Sodomite if we do not update it; that
would leave people thinking God has Strong Negative Bias towards this behavior.


LOL! I had it wrongKevin and Terry need to write
a book Together! (The Book of Common Sense.) J Izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers





















From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005
11:19 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons
and Street Preachers





In a message dated 2/15/2005 3:06:56 PM Pacific Standard
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




JD, this sounds like a
continual confessing theology, instead of a repenting and putting away sin
theology. Sounds permissive as H-E-double-hockey-sticks to me. Izzy



It is biblical, Izzy. Pure D bible. In I JO 1:9, the
confession IS continual. No need to cuss, or maybe that is permited
in your theology. 
Jd



Oh, Hell is VERY permissive about sin,
JD. Very. It is always hungry for more lost souls. Izzy

Re: [TruthTalk] Son of Man

In a message dated 2/15/2005 7:11:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 "When respect is not afforded to those so well-deserved, it speaks ill of the one who feels he cannot afford to give it."

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 Ill vouch for thatJD has called KD ignorant twice since I started reading posts at this sitting. I, for one, am tired of it. Izzy





Please re-post those two occasions, Linda, in which I have called names. My intentions are to comment only on the dialogue and I beleive I have veen very consistent in that effort. If I haven't been as consistent in that as I think, I need to know. 

John

Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons and Street Preachers

In a message dated 2/15/2005 9:32:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


It is biblical, Izzy. Pure D bible. In I JO 1:9, the confession IS continual. No need to cuss, or maybe that is permited in your theology. 
Jd

 

Oh, Hell is VERY permissive about sin, JD. Very. It is always hungry for more lost souls. Izzy



You have seen me call Kevin "ignorant" at twice. Prove it or recant.

RE: [TruthTalk] Son of Man





















From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005
11:34 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Son of
Man





In a message dated 2/15/2005 7:11:34 PM Pacific Standard
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:




When respect is not afforded to those so
well-deserved, it speaks ill of the one who feels he cannot afford to give
it.

ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 




Ill
vouch for thatJD has called KD ignorant twice since I started reading posts
at this sitting. I, for one, am tired of it. Izzy







Please re-post those two occasions, Linda, in which I have called names.
My intentions are to comment only on the dialogue and I beleive I have veen
very consistent in that effort. If I haven't been as consistent in
that as I think, I need to know.
John





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005
10:55 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons
and Street Preachers



But, having said that,
again, there is so much that you miss when to presist in this willful ignorance
you seem to find so holy. 







In a message dated 2/14/2005 5:36:34 PM
Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


You glory in your ignorance, and then use
isogesis. Just showin off ??





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005
11:02 PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mormons
and Street Preachers



We are all something on that list,
David. That is the point of Romans 2:1ff. That is the
danger of judging others. 
JD

Re: [TruthTalk] Son of Man