Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
And since it is the spiritual condition under discussion, this would be "spiritually dead" right JD? On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:27:09 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That would be the word "dead" or the phrase " dead already" -- kind of like your discussion with Bill at this point. JdFrom: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Izzy asks Do you have a ?biblical term? that expresses man?s spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Okay, I willaddress your question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can then address that aspect in abstention of the others.I do not accept that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the form it was structured. In other words, I stumped you, huh? J When the biblical authors speak to living subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being. So you think a person cannot be spiritually dead until they are physically dead? If a person is physically alive, he is also spiritually alive??? He is speaking metaphorically about the hopelessness and helplessness of their entire former existencein the depravity of their fallen state. I mplicit in his use of the term "dead" is the conveyance that they could do nothing of themselves to remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former state. Agreed, of course. I hope this will satisfy your request and trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this discussion. No, not really, but I think you must be tuckered out, Bill. I think if I keep pointing out the holes in your theory, so to speak, you might get either really angry or have to give up and agree with me once in a while. J Thank you for your patience and the charity with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse with you when we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless you, Absolutely likewise, Bill, and thanks, as it was enjoyable. izzy Bill judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Of course they did JD, and some even explain what they mean. We have Jesus discourse with Nicodemus in John 3 where hejuxtaposes spiritual with physical birth; andan object lesson is given for this in Gal 4:29 where two of Abrahams sons - one born offlesh and the other born of the spirit are contrasted. The child of flesh persecuting the one born of the spirit just as the flesh always strives against the spirit. 1 Peter 1:23 speaks of being born again not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible. So what is the problem??? Water Baptism alone may symbolize something but Mark 16:16 spells it out. The one who believes and is baptized is saved. If they believe not they are damned. Baptism is not mentioned in part B because it is possible for someone to be baptized and be damned. judyt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:07:24 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I asked for examples of those who heard these words of Christ and were sent into all the world (the 12 apostles). They and the other evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born again in order to be saved. Never. Why? We have thrown water baptism out as that sacrament that symbolizes our inclusion in Christ and have preached "the sinners prayer" as if this were a biblical teaching. I would expect that if our doctrine were thiers of so many years ago, that we would talk or act like them on some level.JD From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, I give you scripture (You must be born again, for example) and then you tell me it doesn?t count because there was a better translation meaning another thing entirely, or it was a nonbiblical term, or then you don?t care if it?s a biblical or not as long as it?s a biblical concept, or?izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, itbecomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
They and the other evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born again in order to be saved. What? Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit... 1 PETER 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 JN 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 1 JN 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 JN 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. JN 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I asked for examples of those who heard these words of Christ and were sent into all the world (the 12 apostles). They and the other evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born again in order to be saved. Never. Why? We have thrown water baptism out as that sacrament that symbolizes our inclusion in Christ and have preached "the sinners prayer" as if this were a biblical teaching. I would expect that if our doctrine were thiers of so many years ago, that we would talk or act like them on some level. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:31:14 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death JD, I give you scripture (You must be born again, for example) and then you tell me it doesn?t count because there was a better translation meaning another thing entirely, or it was a nonbiblical term, or then you don?t care if it?s a biblical or not as long as it?s a biblical concept, or?izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:44 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, itbecomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Do you have a secret decoder ring? Maybe if I quickly blink my eyes as I am reading[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This bears repeating -- so here it is again -- let it sink in. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:06:31 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 by contrast, G-m's apply(theoretical) obedience training, manipulating a dog to a certain behavior, to the subjects of NT because they never volunteered to love Love.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:00:38 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..volunteeringto loveLove, like the Ap John does,to lovehim who volunteers to love me perpetually, unconditionally, isthe normal modern response to the NT it's rooted in(his) healing.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:57 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' || __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Seems like from G-m's perspective Godwill windup with a pack of wild dogs JDin heaven On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you have a secret decoder ring? Maybe if I quickly blink my eyes as I am reading[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This bears repeating -- so here it is again -- let it sink in. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] by contrast, G-m's apply(theoretical) obedience training, manipulating a dog to a certain behavior, to the subjects of NT because they never volunteered to love Love.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:00:38 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..volunteeringto loveLove, like the Ap John does,to lovehim who volunteers to love me perpetually, unconditionally, isthe normal modern response to the NT it's rooted in(his) healing.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:57 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' || __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Blainer: That's too easy--give me a harder one. :) In a message dated 7/28/2005 10:33:07 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I can make anyone or anything appear evilif I choose to--it is just a matter of which perspective I choose to adopt. If that is so, please give us an example of how the Southern Baptists are evil. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin wrote: You should have said: not wanting to face the facts I ignore them. Blainer: You missed the point. You can give out with all the facts you want, it is your interpretation of the facts that I contend with. You consistently interpret facts with a slanted bias--slanted in favor of putting the LDS Church in the worst possible light. I can make anyone or anything appear evilif I choose to--it is just a matter of which perspective I choose to adopt. In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:21:26 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Not wanting to JUMP to conclusions, I have drawn none.
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
It only makes sense to those in the right Klingon time travelwave length, Kevin. That's why I don't even bother to read the stuff. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:44 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Do you have a secret decoder ring? Maybe if I quickly blink my eyes as I am reading[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This bears repeating -- so here it is again -- let it sink in. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:06:31 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 by contrast, G-m's apply(theoretical) obedience training, manipulating a dog to a certain behavior, to the subjects of NT because they never volunteered to love Love.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:00:38 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..volunteeringto loveLove, like the Ap John does,to lovehim who volunteers to love me perpetually, unconditionally, isthe normal modern response to the NT it's rooted in(his) healing.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:57 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' || __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Apparently you missed the post recently where I said we just baptized 193 people at our church JD. Regarding your last sentence, I'm all for it--why don't you give it a try? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:07 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death I asked for examples of those who heard these words of Christ and were sent into all the world (the 12 apostles). They and the other evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born again in order to be saved. Never. Why? We have thrown water baptism out as that sacrament that symbolizes our inclusion in Christ and have preached "the sinners prayer" as if this were a biblical teaching. I would expect that if our doctrine were thiers of so many years ago, that we would talk or act like them on some level. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:31:14 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death JD, I give you scripture (You must be born again, for example) and then you tell me it doesn?t count because there was a better translation meaning another thing entirely, or it was a nonbiblical term, or then you don?t care if it?s a biblical or not as long as it?s a biblical concept, or?izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:44 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, itbecomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Blainerb: Sorry Kevin, as usual, you have either been reading the wrong stuff, or you are making this up as you go along, trying to build a case. Joseph Smith had the Urim Thummim restored to him in July, 1828. Using it, he received a new revelation reprimanding him for allowing Martin Harris to have the 116 page manuscript and telling him the designs of God could not be frustrated. The UT was again taken from him, but later restored after a period of probation. Using it, he then received a revelation telling him 1) of the evil intentions of those who stole the manuscript, and 2) that he was not to re-translate the same portion of the plates as before, but was totranslate froma different section of the plates covering the same time period. (A Comprehensive History of the Church, B.H. Roberts, Vol 1, pages 111-112) In a message dated 7/28/2005 11:26:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The angel took them away from Joe because he LOST 116 pages of God's word, they were NOT RESTORED in the "restoration"! How was it that the "God" of Mormonism could be FRUSTRATED in his purpose of translation?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:39:19 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Urim and Thummim Was just a SEER STONE as J Fielding Smith said Blainer: The seer stone was used in place of the urim and thummim, but was not actually such. It had similar powers, however. The urim and thummim was a pair of stones, primarily, set in a rim like a pair of eye-glasses. See: Ex. 28:30; Lev. 8:8; Deut 33:88
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Since this "spiritual condition" you speak of includes the physical body - the correct word would be "dead" or "death.'Look, what Bill is trying to get across is that aside from the metaphorical language used to teach biblical concepts, the reality is this: there is not a dual reality when it comes to man. He is mind, body/soul, and spirit. That is what he is. The threecannot be separated and survive. THAT is why the physical body will be raised --- because there is no life for man apart from the three and no eternal life apart from God. "That which is flesh" and that "which is spirit" IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5), You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught in scripture at all, which is not fine. Many argue thatman is given choices in life that are "spiritual" and "non-spiritual." ALL choices are "spiritual" because man cannot be separated from such. As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree with this - input please), your use of "spiritual" is fine as long as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an autonomy in each of its two ontological states -- body and soul living together until judgment day. We are one being, ontologically speaking, and nothing in scripture denies this or teaches other wise. Since man is a spirit filled being (John 3:21; Phil 2:12-13) he destroys himself when he tries to live his life apart from God --- such is impossible and death is its only result. This is not some liberal teaching that takes us away from God !!! Such a conclusion is thoughtless bordering. Rather, it puts God in man and offers man a choice - to accept this gifted presence and live, or reject what cannot be rejected and die. This teaching insists upon repentance (a change of mind), preaching to the lost that they must stop thinking they are autonomous AND ACTING OUT THAT THOUGHTLESSNESS, and accept what is given to them and live as if LIFE were an integral part of who they are because tht is the way itis. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:57:51 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death And since it is the spiritual condition under discussion, this would be "spiritually dead" right JD? On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:27:09 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That would be the word "dead" or the phrase " dead already" -- kind of like your discussion with Bill at this point. JdFrom: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Izzy asks Do you have a ?biblical term? that expresses man?s spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Okay, I willaddress your question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can then address that aspect in abstention of the others.I do not accept that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the form it was structured. In other words, I stumped you, huh? J When the biblical authors speak to living subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being. So you think a person cannot be spiritually dead until they are physically dead? If a person is physically alive, he is also spiritually alive??? He is speaking metaphorically about the hopelessness and helplessness of their entire former existencein th e depravity of their fallen state. I mplicit in his use of the term "dead" is the conveyance that they could do nothing of themselves to remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former state. Agreed, of course. I hope this will satisfy your request and trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this discussion. No, not really, but I think you must be tuckered out, Bill. I think if I keep pointing out the holes in your theory, so to speak, you might get either really angry or have to give up and agree with me once in a while. J Thank you for your patience and the charity with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse with you when we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless you, Absolutely likewise, Bill, and thanks, as it was enjoyable. izzy Bill judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Debbie wrote: David, I appreciate the substance and tone of this post you wrote to Judy (apart from whether or not I happen to have the same opinion about spiritual inheritance). Thank you for the kind words, Debbie, but now my curiosity is piqued. Do you have a system of understanding spiritual inheritance? If so, please discuss it with us. Address the following points: 1. Is there such a thing as spirit? My answer would be yes. 2. Where does the spirit come from? Is it inherited, something passed down from Adam? My answer would be no. God creates the spirit for each individual that comes into this world at the time the individual is born. 3. Are any spiritual traits of parents passed down to their children through some kind of transferrence involving the conception of life in the womb? My answer would be no. I offer my answers above, not on any authority, but on my current perspective which is subject to change when better information comes my way. I look forward to hearing your perspective on this subject. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:21:48 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Since this "spiritual condition" you speak of includes the physical body - the correct word would be "dead" or "death.' jt: Why not allow scripture to interpret scripture JD? Death scripturally can be either the absence of spiritual life or the end of days absence of breath because of sickness and disease or old age. Both are valid. Look, what Bill is trying to get across is that aside from the metaphorical language used to teach biblical concepts, the reality is this: there is not a dual reality when it comes to man. He is mind, body/soul, and spirit.That is what he is. The threecannot be separated and survive. jt: Why not see what the scriptures say about this and if they don't agree with Bill then you can decide whose report you will believe. 1 Thess 5:23,24 speaks of the God of Peace sanctifying us completely and identifies the complete man as spirit, soul, and body. All three are to be preserved blameless. Now if they are not to be thought of separately then why are these verses in the Bible and why does Heb 4:12 speak of the separation of spirit and soul. I would think these issues are important since the Word of God addresses them. THAT is why the physical body will be raised - because there is no life for man apart from the three and no eternal life apart from God. "That which is flesh" and that "which is spirit" IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5), jt: I believe you are wrong about this JD. The rich man in Hades who wanted Lazarus to come and help him- did he have his body down there with him? When Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison - where are their bodies? This is important - If you can't identify flesh then how are you going to keep from walking in it? You will never get out of captivity that way and the body you are in right now is not going to heaven the way it is. You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught in scripture at all, which is not fine. jt: And you and your friend use a non-biblical word to express a tritheism that is not taught in scripture. Godhead is the scriptural term and mankind is also a triune being. How is it that you can accept all of these non-biblical concepts concerning the Godhead(where does anyone get the idea that there is dancing going on?) and yet refuse to accept the concept that our bodies contain a soul and spirit which harmonize and work together the same way the Godhead does ie none is complete without the others and they submit one to the other. Many argue thatman is given choices in life that are "spiritual" and "non-spiritual." ALL choices are "spiritual" because man cannot be separated from such. jt: I wouldn't argue with your point above, but I would add that there are two spiritual kingdoms vying for the allegiance of manking and we need to know which one we are communing with and walking in lock-step with. As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree with this - input please), your use of "spiritual" is fine as long as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an autonomy in each of its two ontological states -- body and soul living together until judgment day.We are one being, ontologically speaking, and nothing in scripture denies this or teaches other wise. jt: Now you are verging off into philosophy JD. Howare we ever going to try the spirits and prove what is of God if you are constantly going off into mixture? Ontology is a metaphysical term. Can we use the same plainness of speech Paul spoke of in 1 Cor to discuss spiritual realities - Please JD? Since man is a spirit filled being (John 3:21; Phil 2:12-13) he destroys himself when he tries to live his life apart from God - such is impossible and death is its only result. jt: Ppl can be demonized for a long time before God's mercy runs it's course and physical death ensues. Look at how long he gave the Amorite nations - 400 years wasn't it? Before He said - That's it. Today we have all kinds of weird spiritualities calling themself godly who will also inherit the wind unless they repent and turn. This is not some liberal teaching that takes us away from God !!! Such a conclusion is thoughtless bordering. jt: Any teaching that ignores or negates God's holiness and his justice and focuses upon his love to the exclusion of all else is a liberal teaching and will take people away from God. Rather, it puts God in man and offers man a choice - to accept this gifted presence and live, or reject what cannot be rejected and die. jt: Only one problem JD. God does not go where He is not invited - just because the worlds (and we) are held
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
Blainerb:Be my guests. I would even provide you with a few beers/wines to help you get through the difficult times ahead before thegrand finale, butyou seem out of it already, so no need!! "They are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink." Isaiah 29:9 In a message dated 7/28/2005 10:59:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We'll hold our collective breaths Blaine. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:07 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth! Don't worry about it--sorry to have offended you with the numbers andglory of the upcoming Kingdom Come, where "an innumerable company of angels" will usher in the millennium of Christ's reign. see Hebrews 12:20-25
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
John wrote: ... there is not a dual reality when it comes to man. He is mind, body/soul, and spirit. That is what he is. The three cannot be separated and survive. Even if this were true, this does not mean that we cannot talk about what each part contributes. When talking about the physical body, I can talk about different organs and tissues, whether they be the heart, the lungs, the stomach, the brain, the muscles, the skin, etc. Being reductionistic is not a sin and it is not improper even if the body cannot exist without all parts connected and functioning together. John wrote: THAT is why the physical body will be raised --- because there is no life for man apart from the three and no eternal life apart from God. That which is flesh and \ that which is spirit IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5), The state of mind is described as either carnal or spiritual, but this does not mean that there is not a real flesh and a real spirit that is being talked about. You cannot use the context of Romans 8 to deny the reality of the physical body or to deny the reality of the spirit. John wrote: You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught in scripture at all, which is not fine. Sorry, but the dualism is taught in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. I don't have time to write a book for you right now showing it everywhere. If you are interested, ask, and I will post passages as I have time. You can start with the formation of Adam from the dust of the ground, and what it took to make him alive. John wrote: Many argue that man is given choices in life that are spiritual and non-spiritual. Right. This is the state of mind that you referenced in Romans 8. Men can mind things that are spiritual or mind things that are not spiritual (carnal). John wrote: ALL choices are spiritual because man cannot be separated from such. Wrong, John. Read Romans 8:5 again. They that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh, but they that are after the spirit the things of the spirit. Some choices are spiritual (motivated by the spirit) and some choices are carnal (motivated by the flesh). John wrote: As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree with this - input please), your use of spiritual is fine as long as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an autonomy in each of its two ontological states -- body and soul living together until judgment day. We are one being, ontologically speaking, and nothing in scripture denies this or teaches other wise. Scripture certainly does teach dualism. Please do not be so ignorant. Have you not read in Revelation 6, how the souls of those who were slain were under the altar of God, asking how long they would wait for the judgment? These were conscious souls under the altar of God in heaven? Where were their bodies? In the ground on earth. And have you not read Luke 16, how when Lazarus died, the angels carried him to Abraham's bosom, but the rich man found himself in hell? Where was the rich man's body? Jesus says his body was buried. If you are going to rebuke anyone for teaching dualism, you had better start with rebuking Jesus. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
My Lord is returning momentarily, and I dont plan to meet him in a drunken stupor. Your god, however, will arrive when hell freezes over. (Got your snowshoes on?) izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 11:10 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth! Blainerb:Be my guests. I would even provide you with a few beers/wines to help you get through the difficult times ahead before thegrand finale, butyou seem out of it already, so no need!! They are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink. Isaiah 29:9 In a message dated 7/28/2005 10:59:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We'll hold our collective breaths Blaine. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:07 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth! Don't worry about it--sorry to have offended you with the numbers andglory of the upcoming Kingdom Come, where an innumerable company of angels will usher in the millennium of Christ's reign. see Hebrews 12:20-25
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
One positive from your expressed inability (below) -- at least there is no logical way you can be critical of Denver's resident theologican. That s good. JD-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:43:57 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Do you have a secret decoder ring? Maybe if I quickly blink my eyes as I am reading[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This bears repeating -- so here it is again -- let it sink in. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:06:31 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 by contrast, G-m's apply(theoretical) obedience training, manipulating a dog to a certain behavior, to the subjects of NT because they never volunteered to love Love.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:00:38 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..volunteeringto loveLove, like the Ap John does,to lovehim who volunteers to love me perpetually, unconditionally, isthe normal modern response to the NT it's rooted in(his) healing.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:57 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' || __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
I kinda of like your perspective on G's perspective. Jd-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 09:48:35 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Seems like from G-m's perspective Godwill windup with a pack of wild dogs JDin heaven On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 04:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do you have a secret decoder ring? Maybe if I quickly blink my eyes as I am reading[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This bears repeating -- so here it is again -- let it sink in. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] by contrast, G-m's apply(theoretical) obedience training, manipulating a dog to a certain behavior, to the subjects of NT because they never volunteered to love Love.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:00:38 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..volunteeringto loveLove, like the Ap John does,to lovehim who volunteers to love me perpetually, unconditionally, isthe normal modern response to the NT it's rooted in(his) healing.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:57 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' || __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Hey Iz, To my knowledge, Joseph Smith never said what color the sky was. (If I said he did,would you argue the point?:).However,he oncepointed up into the night skytowards the constellation Sagittarius,and said, "God lives up yonder." It turns out he was, according to discoveries made in the early 1900's, pointing right into the center of the Milky Way Galaxy.That seems a logical place for God to live, but then that is IMHO. Blainerb In a message dated 7/29/2005 9:23:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JD, if I said the sky is blue you would argue with it. Don't you ever get tired of being obtuse? Prayer CAN also be verbal! Remember, Jesus did it? And Jesus told us how to pray (verbally)??? And it was actually, like, talking to God? (duh.) What was the Lord's Prayer all about, anyway? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:23 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thamas had a conversation with Christ. Prayer is something much different, sometimes requiring the assistance of the Spirit when our words are not sufficient. In fact, we are told to "pray without ceasing." If you think pryaer is talking --you are lost on this one. Prayer is much more a communion with God than is talking to Him. JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Are we all mad because Professor Ottoson does not write at a 4th grade level? I like it for just that reason. I have to sit and think about it for a while. It is almost always good - and at times profound. JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:28:35 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 It only makes sense to those in the right Klingon time travelwave length, Kevin. That's why I don't even bother to read the stuff. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:44 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Do you have a secret decoder ring? Maybe if I quickly blink my eyes as I am reading[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This bears repeating -- so here it is again -- let it sink in. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:06:31 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 by contrast, G-m's apply(theoretical) obedience training, manipulating a dog to a certain behavior, to the subjects of NT because they never volunteered to love Love.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:00:38 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..volunteeringto loveLove, like the Ap John does,to lovehim who volunteers to love me perpetually, unconditionally, isthe normal modern response to the NT it's rooted in(his) healing.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:57 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' || __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Why not just admit you can not make "anything" you want appear Evil. LDS are brought up in a culture and in a worldview that trains them to filter out, discardany information that is does not fit or is contrary to that worldview.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: That's too easy--give me a harder one. :) In a message dated 7/28/2005 10:33:07 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I can make anyone or anything appear evilif I choose to--it is just a matter of which perspective I choose to adopt. If that is so, please give us an example of how the Southern Baptists are evil. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin wrote: You should have said: not wanting to face the facts I ignore them. Blainer: You missed the point. You can give out with all the facts you want, it is your interpretation of the facts that I contend with. You consistently interpret facts with a slanted bias--slanted in favor of putting the LDS Church in the worst possible light. I can make anyone or anything appear evilif I choose to--it is just a matter of which perspective I choose to adopt. In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:21:26 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Not wanting to JUMP to conclusions, I have drawn none. Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Like good song lyrics or a poem. You can't be lazy. Debbie - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Are we all mad because Professor Ottoson does not write at a 4th grade level? I like it for just that reason. I have to sit and think about it for a while. It is almost always good - and at times profound. JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:28:35 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 It only makes sense to those in the right Klingon time travelwave length, Kevin. That's why I don't even bother to read the stuff. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:44 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Do you have a secret decoder ring? Maybe if I quickly blink my eyes as I am reading[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This bears repeating -- so here it is again -- let it sink in. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:06:31 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 by contrast, G-m's apply(theoretical) obedience training, manipulating a dog to a certain behavior, to the subjects of NT because they never volunteered to love Love.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:00:38 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..volunteeringto loveLove, like the Ap John does,to lovehim who volunteers to love me perpetually, unconditionally, isthe normal modern response to the NT it's rooted in(his) healing.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:57 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' || __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Amen (this coming from one who is about to see a Batman movie ). JD-Original Message-From: Debbie Sawczak debbie@kest.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 15:18:50 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Like good song lyrics or a poem. You can't be lazy. Debbie - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Are we all mad because Professor Ottoson does not write at a 4th grade level? I like it for just that reason. I have to sit and think about it for a while. It is almost always good - and at times profound. JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:28:35 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 It only makes sense to those in the right Klingon time travelwave length, Kevin. That's why I don't even bother to read the stuff. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:44 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Do you have a secret decoder ring? Maybe if I quickly blink my eyes as I am reading[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This bears repeating -- so here it is again -- let it sink in. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:06:31 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 by contrast, G-m's apply(theoretical) obedience training, manipulating a dog to a certain behavior, to the subjects of NT because they never volunteered to love Love.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:00:38 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..volunteeringto loveLove, like the Ap John does,to lovehim who volunteers to love me perpetually, unconditionally, isthe normal modern response to the NT it's rooted in(his) healing.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:57 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' || __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
I can't say I've thought about it with any thoroughness before (which is why I didn't want to commit myself to an endorsement of that content of your post). I will do some thinking about it now, though, and may return to it as per your request. My answer to your first question will obviously constrain all the rest so that I might have to recast them. Debbie - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Debbie wrote: David, I appreciate the substance and tone of this post you wrote to Judy (apart from whether or not I happen to have the same opinion about spiritual inheritance). Thank you for the kind words, Debbie, but now my curiosity is piqued. Do you have a system of understanding spiritual inheritance? If so, please discuss it with us. Address the following points: 1. Is there such a thing as spirit? My answer would be yes. 2. Where does the spirit come from? Is it inherited, something passed down from Adam? My answer would be no. God creates the spirit for each individual that comes into this world at the time the individual is born. 3. Are any spiritual traits of parents passed down to their children through some kind of transferrence involving the conception of life in the womb? My answer would be no. I offer my answers above, not on any authority, but on my current perspective which is subject to change when better information comes my way. I look forward to hearing your perspective on this subject. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
On pages 111-112 we find verses 1-14 of DC 29. What does DC 29 have to do with this? I do not see what context or verse to which you refer. There are 50 total verses in this one! http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/29 Since we were talking about SEER Stones maybe you refer to the top of page 111 where we find DC 28 verse 11 http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/28 11) And again, thou shalt take thy brother, Hiram Page, between him and thee alone, and tell him that those things which he hath written from that bstone are not of me and that Satan deceivethhim; When we check the note 11b we find: http://scriptures.lds.org/tgs/sorcery See also False Prophets; Magician; Superstitions We Find : enchanter - familiar spirits - evil spirits - soothsayers - divination - astrologers - sorcerers - witchcrafts http://scriptures.lds.org/tgs/sprsttns See also Idolatry; Sorcery; Wizardry What is the difference between Pages Stone Joes? What is it that shows that Page's was of Satan Joe's was of god? Why is Page's Sorcery Witchcraft not Joe's? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: Sorry Kevin, as usual, you have either been reading the wrong stuff, or you are making this up as you go along, trying to build a case. Joseph Smith had the Urim Thummim restored to him in July, 1828. Using it, he received a new revelation reprimanding him for allowing Martin Harris to have the 116 page manuscript and telling him the designs of God could not be frustrated. The UT was again taken from him, but later restored after a period of probation. Using it, he then received a revelation telling him 1) of the evil intentions of those who stole the manuscript, and 2) that he was not to re-translate the same portion of the plates as before, but was totranslate froma different section of the plates covering the same time period. (A Comprehensive History of the Church, B.H. Roberts, Vol 1, pages 111-112) In a message dated 7/28/2005 11:26:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The angel took them away from Joe because he LOST 116 pages of God's word, they were NOT RESTORED in the "restoration"! How was it that the "God" of Mormonism could be FRUSTRATED in his purpose of translation?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:39:19 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Urim and Thummim Was just a SEER STONE as J Fielding Smith said Blainer: The seer stone was used in place of the urim and thummim, but was not actually such. It had similar powers, however. The urim and thummim was a pair of stones, primarily, set in a rim like a pair of eye-glasses. See: Ex. 28:30; Lev. 8:8; Deut 33:88 Yahoo! Mail for Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
I would read it if it was understandable. We need a Translator, I think we have one on TT.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It only makes sense to those in the right Klingon time travelwave length, Kevin. That's why I don't even bother to read the stuff. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:44 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Do you have a secret decoder ring? Maybe if I quickly blink my eyes as I am reading[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This bears repeating -- so here it is again -- let it sink in. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:06:31 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 by contrast, G-m's apply(theoretical) obedience training, manipulating a dog to a certain behavior, to the subjects of NT because they never volunteered to love Love.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:00:38 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..volunteeringto loveLove, like the Ap John does,to lovehim who volunteers to love me perpetually, unconditionally, isthe normal modern response to the NT it's rooted in(his) healing.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:57 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' || __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
"They are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink." Is 29:9 So you agree, the CONTEXT of IS 29:9 is JUDGEMENT? How could that be seeing as it is a prooftext for the BoM coming out of the ground from a FAMILIAR (Evil) Spirit? Why did you leave out the NEXT Verse? As you sometimes say HMMNNN... 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered Seems CONTEXTis a spirit ofDEEP SLEEP upon SEERS PROPHETS! These guys teach "Precepts of Men" Verse 13 Can you think of a Modern Fulfillment of this? If I was you I would take the advice of the last verse: They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb:Be my guests. I would even provide you with a few beers/wines to help you get through the difficult times ahead before thegrand finale, butyou seem out of it already, so no need!! "They are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink." Isaiah 29:9 In a message dated 7/28/2005 10:59:08 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We'll hold our collective breaths Blaine. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:07 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth! Don't worry about it--sorry to have offended you with the numbers andglory of the upcoming Kingdom Come, where "an innumerable company of angels" will usher in the millennium of Christ's reign. see Hebrews 12:20-25 __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
JD wrote: Now, Terry is just making up stuff without giving a response to my objections.Come on in -- its FREE -- but you can't stay in our FREE home unless you pay $750 a month after the first month ...and never ever forget, it's all FREE.Terry Either you are saved by works or you are not ... many on this forum try to have it both ways. If you are going to use the free home analogy, I see it more like someone in authority giving you a home to stay in free without giving up his own authority. Then if you get in the home and tear it up and show disrespect for it, he comes back and kicks you out (e.g., see Luke 12:45-46). Was the home free? Sure, but there were some responsibilities and expectations that came with you receiving this free gift. Do you see it differently? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Kevin Deegan wrote: I would read it if it was understandable. We need a Translator, I think we have one on TT. = Maybe if you were on the right medication you could understand. You need to be able to see what normal people cannot. Just let it float around in your mind for a while as you float around the room and it will become awesome. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Kevin wrote: Nice THEORY Where are the facts? You nor BT can prove this Theory anymore than proving the Tooth Fairy! I gave you some facts with Ezekiel 18 and Exodus 20:5. More facts are available to those who have a heart that desires to learn. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
[Hiram Page] obtained a stone through which he received some spurious revelations. ... So Hiram Page decided to settle the question as to where Zion was to be built through his magical stoneOliver Cowdery and the Whitmer family were deceived by the false declarations of Hiram Page. "More Remarkable Stories of How We Got the Revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants,Barrett" quoted in Tanner 1968, 6 Brother Hiram Page had in his possession a certain stone, by which he had obtained certain 'revelations' concerning the upbuilding of Zion, the order of the Church, etc., all of which were entirely at variance with the order of God's house The Whitmer family and Oliver Cowdery, were believing much in the things set forth by this stone... (Smith 1902, 1:109-110) So according to Joe, when Oliver Cowdery and the Whitmer family believed his claim to receive revelations from his seer stone they were people full of faith, but when they believed revelations from Hiram Page's stone they were credulous and deceived.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On pages 111-112 we find verses 1-14 of DC 29. What does DC 29 have to do with this? I do not see what context or verse to which you refer. There are 50 total verses in this one! http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/29 Since we were talking about SEER Stones maybe you refer to the top of page 111 where we find DC 28 verse 11 http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/28 11) And again, thou shalt take thy brother, Hiram Page, between him and thee alone, and tell him that those things which he hath written from that bstone are not of me and that Satan deceivethhim; When we check the note 11b we find: http://scriptures.lds.org/tgs/sorcery See also False Prophets; Magician; Superstitions We Find : enchanter - familiar spirits - evil spirits - soothsayers - divination - astrologers - sorcerers - witchcrafts http://scriptures.lds.org/tgs/sprsttns See also Idolatry; Sorcery; Wizardry What is the difference between Pages Stone Joes? What is it that shows that Page's was of Satan Joe's was of god? Why is Page's Sorcery Witchcraft not Joe's? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: Sorry Kevin, as usual, you have either been reading the wrong stuff, or you are making this up as you go along, trying to build a case. Joseph Smith had the Urim Thummim restored to him in July, 1828. Using it, he received a new revelation reprimanding him for allowing Martin Harris to have the 116 page manuscript and telling him the designs of God could not be frustrated. The UT was again taken from him, but later restored after a period of probation. Using it, he then received a revelation telling him 1) of the evil intentions of those who stole the manuscript, and 2) that he was not to re-translate the same portion of the plates as before, but was totranslate froma different section of the plates covering the same time period. (A Comprehensive History of the Church, B.H. Roberts, Vol 1, pages 111-112) In a message dated 7/28/2005 11:26:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The angel took them away from Joe because he LOST 116 pages of God's word, they were NOT RESTORED in the "restoration"! How was it that the "God" of Mormonism could be FRUSTRATED in his purpose of translation?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:39:19 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Urim and Thummim Was just a SEER STONE as J Fielding Smith said Blainer: The seer stone was used in place of the urim and thummim, but was not actually such. It had similar powers, however. The urim and thummim was a pair of stones, primarily, set in a rim like a pair of eye-glasses. See: Ex. 28:30; Lev. 8:8; Deut 33:88 Yahoo! Mail for MobileTake Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
David Miller wrote: Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another. Judy wrote: Then he is saying the same as what Lance would harp on constantly which is that noone can know what they think they know (if it conflicts with his doctrine) which contradicts scripture itself because it is written The spiritual man judges ALL things yet he himself is rightly judged by noone (1 Cor 2:15) This would only be true if learning ONLY happened in that way. I'm certainly not saying that. Do you recognize this ambient effect of our culture which teaches us things and gives us our perspective? Does it have ANY influence in your life whatsoever? Judy wrote: I don't know much of anything about Benedict Arnold, in fact I just had to ask my husband who he was. Guy Fawkes would mean more to me since I was raised in the British system \ and we would have a bonfire on Guy Fawkes day. Ok, so you have a different culture. Can you understand how my perspective of the word Benedict might be different than either you or the new Pope because of my culture? Guy Fawkes is not somebody I know of from culture, but only from history books. Perhaps you have a perspective about him that is negative from your culture? Do people in your culture sling his name around like they do Benedict Arnold here in the United States? David Miller wrote: The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. ... The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine. Judy wrote: Are you kidding? At the church I grew up in we heard nothing like that and I personally did not begin to study to show myself approved to God until after I was born again The point is that there are concepts that have been thrust upon you by others that find their way into your mind. You attend a Presbyterian church. Whether you realize it or not, your mind is probably bombarded often with the teachings of both Augustine and Calvin. Do you truly not recognize this? The Bible says: Colossians 2:8 (8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Does not this passage indicate that philsophy and traditions of men impact upon us? Does it not warn us of this effect? Clearly this work is upon us whether we like it or not, or the Scriptures would not warn us to beware of it. Judy wrote: What other way is there to explain what took place in the garden David? Adam did not die physically for 960 more years so unless God lied or changed his mind as JD claims and did not follow through - then Adam died but not physically. One other way to understand this is that he was delivered over to the spirit of death on that day. He died, not in the sense that he dropped dead immediately, but in the sense that he was delivered over to the power of death. He became mortal and subject to sin, sickness, disease, and death. Have you ever heard of a Jewish man disowning his son who converted to Christianity? What does he say? You are dead. You are no longer my son. You are no longer in my life. You are dead. Does he mean that his son literally dropped dead? No, he means that his relationship with him is over. Did Adam die spiritually that day? Yes, in a metaphoric way, he did. Did Adam die physically that day? Yes, in a metaphoric way, he did. This is all that I am saying. Judy wrote: Well yes, that is the way it works. Both Adam and the creation were cursed at the same time and the curse is always implemented by the powers of darkness who only work death and destruction. They never bless. Actually biology responds to psychology and psychology responds to spirituality. In a spiritual person, you are right about biology responding to psychology and psychology responding to spirituality. However, in a carnal person, the reverse is true. The psychology (soul) responds to the body and the spirit responds to the psychology. Judy wrote: Prior to Adams sin noone would have wanted to stab anyone's heart Murder was not a reality until after the fall and neither was mortality. Well, if you don't like the hypothetical, how about Adam falling off of a high cliff? The point is that Adam cannot die unless he is mortal. If God jumped off a cliff, guess what. He would not die. He is immortal. If Adam jumped off a cliff before he had sinned, he would not have died. That is my
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Judy wrote: David sins follow family trees, the characteristics of spirituality follow families. This is true, but there are two types of sin sources that need to be considered. There also are different mechanisms by which these are transferred to future generations. The flesh has a sin nature which is transferred to children through chemicals in their genes called DNA. Spirit, however, is not transferred by DNA. Spirit is created by God and has nothing to do with the flesh. This is why identical twins who have identical genetic material share many physical traits but are different in spirit (they have different personalities right from birth). Judy wrote: That is the sin and iniquity we are conceived in (Ps 51) Right, this refers to the sin nature of the flesh which is transferred via DNA to the children. Judy wrote: and when ppl participate in the same sin that their ancestors \ did we see the movement of sin through the generations. This is called the old man or the carnal nature. Ok, but the participation is something beyond just the inheritance of the sinful nature. The inheritance aspect does not require participation in order to be recognized. Participation then will involve other elements that are not inherited, spiritual elements, which might be the same spirits that operated in the ancestor. Observing them and their influence in future generations does not mean that it was inherited from the parents. Judy wrote: When the first Adam died, his body went back to the dust and a kingdom transferred by its fallen nature to his seed. I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that a kingdom was transferred when he died and his body went back to the dust? If so, how would this be viewed as inheritance? I don't see it as such, but as a transfer of authority in the same way that the Vice President takes over for the President when he dies. I think you are confusing the issues of inheritance with familial authority. Judy wrote: Generational sin is a spiritual rather than a psychological issue and acting it out always follows unless the child dies in infancy. What foundation do you have for saying this? Are all people subject to generational sin? David Miller wrote: I believe in a concept of curses being passed on to future generations, but not in the same sense of inheritance as we find for physical inheritance. It is only through authority that parents give to evil spirits through their sin that allows curses to be passed on. How else do we understand the Lord's teaching in Ezekiel 18? Judy wrote: Ezekiel 18 is exhorting these ppl to repent and turn so that generational iniquity willl not be their ruin. It has always been true that we are judged for our own transgression; Vs26,27 explain how when the wicked turn to righteousness or the righteous turn to wickedness each is judged/rewarded accordingly. The point is that the Jews were using the same verse that you do to create a proverb that basically said the children's teeth were set on edge by the parents. God hated this proverb. Ezekiel 18:1-3 (1) The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, (2) What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Judy wrote: These ppl were falsely accusing God. Yeah, they were accusing God of cursing the children because of the sins of the parents. They were saying that the children had no choice but to sin because of what the parents had done. They were using God's own Holy Word to teach this doctrine. Ezekiel 18:19-20 (19) Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. (20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Judy wrote: Exactly - no problem there. We don't have to walk in the iniquity of our fathers but most of us do because of ignorance. Earlier you said that the children will walk in the iniquity of the fathers, unless they die in infancy. It sounds to me like you are not being consistent, or perhaps I am not understanding you. This is one passage that I think puts Calvinism back into proper perspective. Doesn't the son bear the iniquity of the father? God says, the son that hath done that which is lawful and right ... he shall surely live... the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man.
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Joe the SEER Joseph, Jr., could see, by placing a stone of singular appearance in his hat, in such a manner as to exclude all light; at which time they pretended he could see all things within and under the earth, that he could see within the above mentioned caves, large gold bars and silver plates that he could also discover the spirits in whose charge these treasures were, clothed in ancient dress."William Stafford quoted in Michael H. Marquardt and Wesley P. Walters, Inventing Mormonism: Tradition the Historical Record, Smith Research Assoc. [Signature Books], 1994, p. 66.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Hiram Page] obtained a stone through which he received some spurious revelations. ... So Hiram Page decided to settle the question as to where Zion was to be built through his magical stoneOliver Cowdery and the Whitmer family were deceived by the false declarations of Hiram Page. "More Remarkable Stories of How We Got the Revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants,Barrett" quoted in Tanner 1968, 6 Brother Hiram Page had in his possession a certain stone, by which he had obtained certain 'revelations' concerning the upbuilding of Zion, the order of the Church, etc., all of which were entirely at variance with the order of God's house The Whitmer family and Oliver Cowdery, were believing much in the things set forth by this stone... (Smith 1902, 1:109-110)So according to Joe, when Oliver Cowdery and the Whitmer family believed his claim to receive revelations from his seer stone they were people full of faith, but when they believed revelations from Hiram Page's stone they were credulous and deceived.Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On pages 111-112 we find verses 1-14 of DC 29. What does DC 29 have to do with this? I do not see what context or verse to which you refer. There are 50 total verses in this one! http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/29 Since we were talking about SEER Stones maybe you refer to the top of page 111 where we find DC 28 verse 11 http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/28 11) And again, thou shalt take thy brother, Hiram Page, between him and thee alone, and tell him that those things which he hath written from that bstone are not of me and that Satan deceivethhim; When we check the note 11b we find: http://scriptures.lds.org/tgs/sorcery See also False Prophets; Magician; Superstitions We Find : enchanter - familiar spirits - evil spirits - soothsayers - divination - astrologers - sorcerers - witchcrafts http://scriptures.lds.org/tgs/sprsttns See also Idolatry; Sorcery; Wizardry What is the difference between Pages Stone Joes? What is it that shows that Page's was of Satan Joe's was of god? Why is Page's Sorcery Witchcraft not Joe's? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: Sorry Kevin, as usual, you have either been reading the wrong stuff, or you are making this up as you go along, trying to build a case. Joseph Smith had the Urim Thummim restored to him in July, 1828. Using it, he received a new revelation reprimanding him for allowing Martin Harris to have the 116 page manuscript and telling him the designs of God could not be frustrated. The UT was again taken from him, but later restored after a period of probation. Using it, he then received a revelation telling him 1) of the evil intentions of those who stole the manuscript, and 2) that he was not to re-translate the same portion of the plates as before, but was totranslate froma different section of the plates covering the same time period. (A Comprehensive History of the Church, B.H. Roberts, Vol 1, pages 111-112) In a message dated 7/28/2005 11:26:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The angel took them away from Joe because he LOST 116 pages of God's word, they were NOT RESTORED in the "restoration"! How was it that the "God" of Mormonism could be FRUSTRATED in his purpose of translation?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:39:19 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Urim and Thummim Was just a SEER STONE as J Fielding Smith said Blainer: The seer stone was used in place of the urim and thummim, but was not actually such. It had similar powers, however. The urim and thummim was a pair of stones, primarily, set in a rim like a pair of eye-glasses. See: Ex. 28:30; Lev. 8:8; Deut 33:88 Yahoo! Mail for MobileTake Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
That seems a logical place for God to live So he lives next door to the god of the Jehovahs Witnesses? God resides on the star Alcyone in the constellation Pleiades. Reconciliation page 14 Studies Vol. 3, pg. 327 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Iz, To my knowledge, Joseph Smith never said what color the sky was. (If I said he did,would you argue the point?:).However,he oncepointed up into the night skytowards the constellation Sagittarius,and said, "God lives up yonder." It turns out he was, according to discoveries made in the early 1900's, pointing right into the center of the Milky Way Galaxy.That seems a logical place for God to live, but then that is IMHO. Blainerb In a message dated 7/29/2005 9:23:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JD, if I said the sky is blue you would argue with it. Don't you ever get tired of being obtuse? Prayer CAN also be verbal! Remember, Jesus did it? And Jesus told us how to pray (verbally)??? And it was actually, like, talking to God? (duh.) What was the Lord's Prayer all about, anyway? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:23 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thamas had a conversation with Christ. Prayer is something much different, sometimes requiring the assistance of the Spirit when our words are not sufficient. In fact, we are told to "pray without ceasing." If you think pryaer is talking --you are lost on this one. Prayer is much more a communion with God than is talking to Him. JD Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
O so he writes way above our heads? Next thing you know you will be telling us to approve of the Emperor's new clothes! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are we all mad because Professor Ottoson does not write at a 4th grade level? I like it for just that reason. I have to sit and think about it for a while. It is almost always good - and at times profound. JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:28:35 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 It only makes sense to those in the right Klingon time travelwave length, Kevin. That's why I don't even bother to read the stuff. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:44 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Do you have a secret decoder ring? Maybe if I quickly blink my eyes as I am reading[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This bears repeating -- so here it is again -- let it sink in. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:06:31 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 by contrast, G-m's apply(theoretical) obedience training, manipulating a dog to a certain behavior, to the subjects of NT because they never volunteered to love Love.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:00:38 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..volunteeringto loveLove, like the Ap John does,to lovehim who volunteers to love me perpetually, unconditionally, isthe normal modern response to the NT it's rooted in(his) healing.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:57 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' || __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Get on board the Magical Mystery Tour BusDebbie Sawczak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Like good song lyrics or a poem. You can't be lazy. Debbie - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 2:55 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Are we all mad because Professor Ottoson does not write at a 4th grade level? I like it for just that reason. I have to sit and think about it for a while. It is almost always good - and at times profound. JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 10:28:35 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 It only makes sense to those in the right Klingon time travelwave length, Kevin. That's why I don't even bother to read the stuff. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:44 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Do you have a secret decoder ring? Maybe if I quickly blink my eyes as I am reading[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This bears repeating -- so here it is again -- let it sink in. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:06:31 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 by contrast, G-m's apply(theoretical) obedience training, manipulating a dog to a certain behavior, to the subjects of NT because they never volunteered to love Love.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:00:38 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..volunteeringto loveLove, like the Ap John does,to lovehim who volunteers to love me perpetually, unconditionally, isthe normal modern response to the NT it's rooted in(his) healing.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:57 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' || __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
n na NA Noow I gaA itTerry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: I would read it if it was understandable. We need a Translator, I think we have one on TT. =Maybe if you were on the right medication you could understand. You need to be able to see what normal people cannot. Just let it float around in your mind for a while as you float around the room and it will become awesome.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Facts to prove that JT was influenced by ...David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin wrote: Nice THEORY Where are the facts? You nor BT can prove this Theory anymore than proving the Tooth Fairy!I gave you some facts with Ezekiel 18 and Exodus 20:5. More facts are available to those who have a heart that desires to learn.Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Now that I would like to see - After all the accusations I've still not seen any factual information showing howwhat I am sayingis the same as Augustine- in fact I found a whole list of things that are in conflict. He would have excommunicated me with the Donatists and other hereticks for sure. Do you really think TT is a Magical Mystery Tour Kevin :) this is too funny. ROTFL On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Facts to prove that JT was influenced by ...David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin wrote: Nice THEORY Where are the facts? You nor BT can prove this Theory anymore than proving the Tooth Fairy!I gave you some facts with Ezekiel 18 and Exodus 20:5. More facts are available to those who have a heart that desires to learn.Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Terry wrote: Maybe if you were on the right medication you could understand. You need to be able to see what normal people cannot. Just let it float around in your mind for a while as you float around the room and it will become awesome. ROTFLOL! You crack me up, Terry. I guess the medication of choice would be Vicodin? :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Debbie wrote: Like good song lyrics or a poem. You can't be lazy. What about a bad song or poem, where you take the time to try and understand, but then you are upset with the meaning you uncovered. This kind of reminds me of some of my preaching adventures in the nightclub districts. I sometimes wear this all black T-shirt with red flames on it. The words say, REPENT OR PERISH. When I'm walking to my preaching spot, these clubbers sometimes stop me to read my shirt. Wait, let me read your shirt. They are expecting to read some vulgar joke or something, then when they read out loud, RE-PENT OR PER---ISH OH MAN! UGH...! They act like I just slugged them or something. Not what they were expecting to find. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Blaine wrote: ... pointing right into the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. That seems a logical place for God to live, but then that is IMHO. Why not the center of the universe instead of the center of the galaxy? Why not the center of our solar system (the sun)? Can you tell us a little more of your thinking? By the way, the center of our galaxy is thought to have a massive black hole. That sounds more like a place where maybe Satan lives. Maybe Kevin also thinks that the center of our galaxy would be the logical place where Joseph Smith would point out is the home of his god. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Kevin wrote: Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
So David, now you and BT are in one accord so we may as well discontinue the dialogue. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:49:14 -0400 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Kevin wrote: Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Debbie wrote: Like good song lyrics or a poem. You can't be lazy.DM wrote: What about a bad song or poem, where you take the time to try and understand, but then you are upset with the meaning you uncovered. Abad song or poem is onewhose meaning upsets you?? But in any case, as I understood them, G's detractors were complaining about the accessibility, not the value,of the meaning of his posts. Of course, few things are accessible to the lazy, who then have nothing to evaluate. Debbie
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Yes; after all, that IS a sure sign of the end of
the world!! (Or at least Judy's world.)
Debbie
- Original Message -
From:
Judy
Taylor
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:02
PM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual
Death
So David, now you and BT are in one accord so we may
as well discontinue
the dialogue. jt
On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:49:14 -0400 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Kevin wrote: Facts to prove that JT was influenced by
Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been
influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan,
etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?
Peace be with you. David Miller.
-- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt,
that you may know how you ought to answer every man."
(Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If
you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and
you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to
join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he
will be subscribed.
judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the
Lord,
are changed into the same image from glory to
glory,
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians
3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
However, speaking of T-shirts not saying what you expect them to say: last summer I saw someone in a parking lot whose T-shirt read, in large black caps, PERPETUAL CONJECTURE. I thought that was a pretty intriguing thing to put on a T-shirt and I also liked the sound of the words (as in, their aural effect. I amreminded of the poet Annie Dillard's mother who heard a baseball umpire on the radio say "Terwilliger bunts one!" and often repeated it just for love of its sound.). BUT then when I looked at the T-shirt again, it said nothing of the kind! There were large black caps, it was definitely the same T-shirt on the same person facing the same way, but it said something completely different which I don't even remember. It was the weirdest thing. No doubt some people who like to think of me as an agnostic (who wants her ears tickled) would attach great significance to this... but no, such I'm not. Maybe it was a temptation... Debbie - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 6:40 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Debbie wrote: Like good song lyrics or a poem. You can't be lazy. What about a bad song or poem, where you take the time to try and understand, but then you are upset with the meaning you uncovered. This kind of reminds me of some of my preaching adventures in the nightclub districts. I sometimes wear this all black T-shirt with red flames on it. The words say, "REPENT OR PERISH." When I'm walking to my preaching spot, these clubbers sometimes stop me to read my shirt. "Wait, let me read your shirt." They are expecting to read some vulgar joke or something, then when they read out loud, "RE-PENT OR PER---ISH OH MAN! UGH...!" They act like I just slugged them or something. Not what they were expecting to find. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Kevin Deegan wrote: That seems a logical place for God to live So he lives next door to the god of the Jehovahs Witnesses? God resides on the star Alcyone in the constellation Pleiades. Reconciliation page 14 Studies Vol. 3, pg. 327 Now I'm confused (even more than usual). What happened to Kolub? Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin wrote: Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Good question - it appears as though to some people I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God. I'd like to see the facts myself. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin wrote: Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
G's detractors were complaining about the accessibility, not the value,of the meaning of his posts. Of course, few things are accessible to the lazy, who then have nothing to evaluate. "When Bernie stood up, he was reborn, and he yelled, Thank you, Jesus! over and over, tears pouring down his cheeks - Now there was what I call preaching! says Johns Uncle Val, Bernies brother, a deacon and Pastor Ingqvists faithful critic. He says of the pastors sermons, He mumbles. He murmers. Its a lot of on-the-one-hand-this, on-the-other-hand-that. He never comes straight out. He never puts the hay down where the goats can get it. Its a lot of talk, and many a Sunday Ive walked away with no idea what he said. Cant remember even where he started from. You never had that problem with the old preachers. There was never a moments doubt. It was Repent or Be Damned. We need that. This guy, he tries to please everybody. Just once I wish hed raise his voice and pound on the pulpit. That way Id know he wasnt talking in his sleep" Keillor 320.Debbie Sawczak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Debbie wrote: Like good song lyrics or a poem. You can't be lazy.DM wrote: What about a bad song or poem, where you take the time to try and understand, but then you are upset with the meaning you uncovered. Abad song or poem is onewhose meaning upsets you?? But in any case, as I understood them, G's detractors were complaining about the accessibility, not the value,of the meaning of his posts. Of course, few things are accessible to the lazy, who then have nothing to evaluate. Debbie Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Maybe she'll have to take a Break, go on a Vacation?Debbie Sawczak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes; after all, that IS a sure sign of the end of the world!! (Or at least Judy's world.) Debbie - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death So David, now you and BT are in one accord so we may as well discontinue the dialogue. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:49:14 -0400 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Kevin wrote: Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[TruthTalk] Anonymous Poem
For all you "poetry" lovers, here is a poem written by a hurting person with a demon problem that illustrates the difference between spirit soul. My brain is so busy Inside my head But yet in my heart Everything's dead My head and my heart Argue a lot My head tries to be What my heart is not My heart is unhappy It wants to cry It hurts so much That I want to die I need to scream I need to cry I want to kill And I don't know why I need to be loved For all that I am Not only the part That fits another's plan My dearest longing In this world would be If my heart and my head Would start to agree Anonymous judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Now I'm confused (even more than usual). What happened to Kolub? TerryKOLOB RECORDS It is the Record Label of those Spiffy Clean veneer OSMONDS! http://www.deuceofclubs.com/lps/kolob.htm Well actually it is a really cool park http://www.americansouthwest.net/utah/zion/kolob_canyons.html OR it is PLANET LDS! Kolob governs all the planets which belong to the same order as the earth and is after the reckoning of the Lord's times, seasons and revolutions thereof. One revolution of Kolob is a day unto the Lord and one day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years on earth. Kolob means "the first creation." It is the name of the planet "nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God." It is "first in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. . . . One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth." Book of Abraham, pp. 34-35; Abra. 3:3-9. Mormon Doctrine, p.428 It is said that god also has a secret summer residence called "Area LDS" There, testing of Eternal progressions, fly byes, and first attempts at Organizing new planets are performed,just in case of those dreadful misfires that occur once in a while. You know how embarassing it is for a new god to blow it right spank in front of the whole council of gods. And who could forget that GREAT HYMN of the faith? If You Could Hie to Kolob, 284 - William W. Phelps 1. If you could hie to Kolob In the twinkling of an eye,And then continue onward With that same speed to fly,Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity,Find out the generation Where Gods began to be? 2. Or see the grand beginning, Where space did not extend?Or view the last creation, Where Gods and matter end?Me thinks the Spirit whispers, No man has found pure space,Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place. 3. The works of God continue, And worlds and lives abound;Improvement and progression Have one eternal round.There is no end to matter; There is no end to space;There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race. 4. There is no end to virtue; There is no end to might;There is no end to wisdom; There is no end to light.There is no end to union; There is no end to youth;There is no end to priesthood; There is no end to truth. 5. There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;There is no end to being; There is no death above.There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;There is no end to being; There is no death above. Hear it here: http://nowscape.com/mormon/images/If_You_Could_Hie_To_KOLOB_from_Levi_Sisemore.mid It is said that Kolob may have been the INSPIRATION for this well known song! http://solosong.net/wish.html Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: That seems a logical place for God to live So he lives next door to the god of the Jehovahs Witnesses? God resides on the star Alcyone in the constellation Pleiades. Reconciliation page 14 Studies Vol. 3, pg. 327 Now I'm confused (even more than usual). What happened to Kolub?Terry Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
In a message dated 7/30/2005 2:56:11 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So according to Joe, when Oliver Cowdery and the Whitmer family believed his claim to receive revelations from his seer stone they were people full of faith, but when they believed revelations from Hiram Page's stone they were credulous and deceived. Blainerb: Good, very good! you are learning! You must be taking smart pills!!
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Just Because! I know the church is True BECAUSE I know the church is True[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/30/2005 2:56:11 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So according to Joe, when Oliver Cowdery and the Whitmer family believed his claim to receive revelations from his seer stone they were people full of faith, but when they believed revelations from Hiram Page's stone they were credulous and deceived. Blainerb: Good, very good! you are learning! You must be taking smart pills!! Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Kevin Deegan wrote: [Hiram Page] obtained a stone through which he received some spurious revelations. ... So Hiram Page decided to settle the question as to where Zion was to be built through his magical stoneOliver Cowdery and the Whitmer family were deceived by the false declarations of Hiram Page. "More Remarkable Stories of How We Got the Revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants,Barrett" quoted in Tanner 1968, 6 Brother Hiram Page had in his possession a certain stone, by which he had obtained certain 'revelations' concerning the upbuilding of Zion, the order of the Church, etc., all of which were entirely at variance with the order of God's house The Whitmer family and Oliver Cowdery, were believing much in the things set forth by this stone... (Smith 1902, 1:109-110) I have a few stones that I will sell at a modest price to anyone wanting to start their own religion. I will even throw in a couple of bricks and a pebble if the price is right. Guaranteed to fit in your hat. Do not delay. Act now! Items will be delivered in a plain brown wrapper. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:21:48 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Since this "spiritual condition" you speak of includes the physical body - the correct word would be "dead" or "death.' jt: Why not allow scripture to interpret scripture JD? Death scripturally can be either the absence of spiritual life or the end of days absence of breath because of sickness and disease or old age. Both are valid. LOL, Judy. You admonish me to "let scripture interpret scripture" and they you off me NO scripture. Look, what Bill is trying to get across is that aside from the metaphorical language used to teach biblical concepts, the reality is this: there is not a dual reality when it comes to man. He is mind, body/soul, and spirit.That is what he is. The threecannot be separated and survive. jt: Why not see what the scriptures say about this and if they don't agree with Bill then you can decide whose report you will believe. 1 Thess 5:23,24 speaks of the God of Peace sanctifying us completely and identifies the complete man as spirit, soul, and body. All three are to be preserved blameless. Now if they are not to be thought of separately then why are these verses in the Bible You have used my words if you believe that "total man" and "complet man" speak ofthe same unity. I do. My body is made up of physical components. The components of a man are body, soul and spirit.Man is not complete without all three. and why does Heb 4:12 speak of the separation of spirit and soul. This word of God can distinguish between, spirit and soul, between joints and marrow and between the thoughts of the heart and the intentions of the heart (often, two very different things.) This verse has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I would think these issues are important since the Word of God addresses them. I agree, so lets use scripture that speaks to the subject at hand and stay on point, shall we? THAT is why the physical body will be raised - because there is no life for man apart from the three and no eternal life apart from God. "That which is flesh" and that "which is spirit" IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5), jt: I believe you are wrong about this JD. I was quoting scripture, Judy. Those who are of the flesh are those who HAVE THEIR MINDS SET ON THINGS OF THE FLESH. Those who are of the Spirit have their minds set on things of the Spirit m Romans 8:5. You can believe I am wrong all you want -- but I am hanging with Paul on this one. The rich man in Hades who wanted Lazarus to come and help him- did he have his body down there with him? No Judy -- he just had a tongue !!! I will be back. I have to go into the other room and laugh for a while. When Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison - where are their bodies? This is important - If you can't identify flesh then how are you going to keep from walking in it? You will never get out of captivity that way and the body you are in right now is not going to heaven the way it is. Of course it isn't. What in this world are you talking about. Our bodies will be raised and then transformed into some form of which we know nothing. You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught in scripture at all, which is not fine. jt: And you and your friend use a non-biblical word to express a tritheism that is not taught in scripture. Godhead is the scriptural term "Godhead" is an English interpretation of a biblical (read:Greek) word. In other words, "Godhead" is not a biblical word -- it is an interpretation. A better word may be "essence." "Trinity" is a non-bliblical word that gives us the FAther, the Son and the Spirit (that's three ) . When we say "the trinity" we are saying "the three." and mankind is also a triune being. How is it that you can accept all of these non-biblical concepts concerning the Godhead(where does anyone get the idea that there is dancing going on?) and yet refuse to accept the concept that our bodies contain a soul and spirit which harmonize and work together the same way the Godhead does ie none is complete without the others and they submit one to the other. I am sorry, Judy, but there is nothing in the above with which I disagree. How does your point argue against mine/ I missed it. Many argue thatman is given choices in life that are "spiritual" and "non-spiritual." ALL choices are "spiritual" because man cannot be separated from such. jt: I wouldn't argue with your point above, but I would add that there are two spiritual kingdoms vying for the allegiance of manking and we need to know which one we are communing with and walking in lock-step with. Apparently the flat tire has been fixed and the auto is running down the road in good shape. Amen to the above. As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree with this - input please), your use of "spiritual" is fine as long as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
And if you believe that I have some Swamp Land on Kolob I can sell you!Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: [Hiram Page] obtained a stone through which he received some spurious revelations. ... So Hiram Page decided to settle the question as to where Zion was to be built through his magical stoneOliver Cowdery and the Whitmer family were deceived by the false declarations of Hiram Page. "More Remarkable Stories of How We Got the Revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants,Barrett" quoted in Tanner 1968, 6 Brother Hiram Page had in his possession a certain stone, by which he had obtained certain 'revelations' concerning the upbuilding of Zion, the order of the Church, etc., all of which were entirely at variance with the order of God's house The Whitmer family and Oliver Cowdery, were believing much in the things set forth by this stone... (Smith 1902, 1:109-110)I have a few stones that I will sell at a modest price to anyone wanting to start their own religion. I will even throw in a couple of bricks and a pebble if the price is right. Guaranteed to fit in your hat.Do not delay. Act now!Items will be delivered in a plain brown wrapper.Terry__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Or reefers? iz -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 4:35 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Terry wrote: Maybe if you were on the right medication you could understand. You need to be able to see what normal people cannot. Just let it float around in your mind for a while as you float around the room and it will become awesome. ROTFLOL! You crack me up, Terry. I guess the medication of choice would be Vicodin? :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Perpetual Conjecture? That's funny. I think that's the place where Lance dwells isn't it? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie SawczakSent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:48 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 However, speaking of T-shirts not saying what you expect them to say: last summer I saw someone in a parking lot whose T-shirt read, in large black caps, PERPETUAL CONJECTURE. I thought that was a pretty intriguing thing to put on a T-shirt and I also liked the sound of the words (as in, their aural effect. I amreminded of the poet Annie Dillard's mother who heard a baseball umpire on the radio say "Terwilliger bunts one!" and often repeated it just for love of its sound.). BUT then when I looked at the T-shirt again, it said nothing of the kind! There were large black caps, it was definitely the same T-shirt on the same person facing the same way, but it said something completely different which I don't even remember. It was the weirdest thing. No doubt some people who like to think of me as an agnostic (who wants her ears tickled) would attach great significance to this... but no, such I'm not. Maybe it was a temptation... Debbie - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 6:40 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Debbie wrote: Like good song lyrics or a poem. You can't be lazy. What about a bad song or poem, where you take the time to try and understand, but then you are upset with the meaning you uncovered. This kind of reminds me of some of my preaching adventures in the nightclub districts. I sometimes wear this all black T-shirt with red flames on it. The words say, "REPENT OR PERISH." When I'm walking to my preaching spot, these clubbers sometimes stop me to read my shirt. "Wait, let me read your shirt." They are expecting to read some vulgar joke or something, then when they read out loud, "RE-PENT OR PER---ISH OH MAN! UGH...!" They act like I just slugged them or something. Not what they were expecting to find. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Debbie, let me go on record as complaining about the value and meaning of G's posts. Mercifully, they also cannot be understood. :-) izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie SawczakSent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 5:23 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 Debbie wrote: Like good song lyrics or a poem. You can't be lazy.DM wrote: What about a bad song or poem, where you take the time to try and understand, but then you are upset with the meaning you uncovered. Abad song or poem is onewhose meaning upsets you?? But in any case, as I understood them, G's detractors were complaining about the accessibility, not the value,of the meaning of his posts. Of course, few things are accessible to the lazy, who then have nothing to evaluate. Debbie
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Well, maybe this is part of the 90% between DM and myself but -- Judy, my dear,Calvanism is a definite part of your theology. Presbyterianism is Calvanism institutionalized. i do not think this is evil -- but it is true. When DM speaks of "truism," in your case, how could this not be true? JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:23:13 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Good question - it appears as though to some people I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God. I'd like to see the facts myself. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan openairmission@yahoo.com writes: Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin wrote: Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
When DM speaks of "truism," in your case, how could this not be true? This has got to be a FIRST JD agrees with DM? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, maybe this is part of the 90% between DM and myself but -- Judy, my dear,Calvanism is a definite part of your theology. Presbyterianism is Calvanism institutionalized. i do not think this is evil -- but it is true. When DM speaks of "truism," in your case, how could this not be true? JD-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:23:13 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Good question - it appears as though to some people I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God. I'd like to see the facts myself. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan openairmission@yahoo.com writes: Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin wrote: Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
DM -- you should work to remove your own ignorance before continuing this discussion. I will wait until this ignorance (of yours) has been left behind. JD-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:23:29 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death John wrote: ... there is not a dual reality when it comes to man. He is mind, body/soul, and spirit. That is what he is. The three cannot be separated and survive. Even if this were true, this does not mean that we cannot talk about what each part contributes. When talking about the physical body, I can talk about different organs and tissues, whether they be the heart, the lungs, the stomach, the brain, the muscles, the skin, etc. Being reductionistic is not a sin and it is not improper even if the body cannot exist without all parts connected and functioning together. John wrote: THAT is why the physical body will be raised --- because there is no life for man apart from the three and no eternal life apart from God. "That which is flesh" and \ that "which is spirit" IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5), The state of mind is described as either carnal or spiritual, but this does not mean that there is not a real flesh and a real spirit that is being talked about. You cannot use the context of Romans 8 to deny the reality of the physical body or to deny the reality of the spirit. John wrote: You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught in scripture at all, which is not fine. Sorry, but the dualism is taught in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. I don't have time to write a book for you right now showing it everywhere. If you are interested, ask, and I will post passages as I have time. You can start with the formation of Adam from the dust of the ground, and what it took to make him alive. John wrote: Many argue that man is given choices in life that are "spiritual" and "non-spiritual." Right. This is the state of mind that you referenced in Romans 8. Men can mind things that are spiritual or mind things that are not spiritual (carnal). John wrote: ALL choices are "spiritual" because man cannot be separated from such. Wrong, John. Read Romans 8:5 again. "They that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh, but they that are after the spirit the things of the spirit." Some choices are spiritual (motivated by the spirit) and some choices are carnal (motivated by the flesh). John wrote: As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree with this - input please), your use of "spiritual" is fine as long as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an autonomy in each of its two ontological states -- body and soul living together until judgment day. We are one being, ontologically speaking, and nothing in scripture denies this or teaches other wise. Scripture certainly does teach dualism. Please do not be so ignorant. Have you not read in Revelation 6, how the souls of those who were slain were under the altar of God, asking how long they would wait for the judgment? These were conscious souls under the altar of God in heaven? Where were their bodies? In the ground on earth. And have you not read Luke 16, how when Lazarus died, the angels carried him to Abraham's bosom, but the rich man found himself in hell? Where was the rich man's body? Jesus says his body was buried. If you are going to rebuke anyone for teaching dualism, you had better start with rebuking Jesus. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Actually, David, I think I will go with my analogy if it is alright with you. It makes my point andsays exactly what I want it to say. Again, either you are saved by works or you are not. Jd-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 16:24:18 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 JD wrote: Now, Terry is just making up stuff without giving a response to my objections."Come on in -- its FREE -- but you can't stay in our FREE home unless you pay $750 a month after the first month ...and never ever forget, it's all FREE."Terry Either you are saved by works or you are not ... many on this forum try to have it both ways. If you are going to use the free home analogy, I see it more like someone in authority giving you a home to stay in free without giving up his own authority. Then if you get in the home and tear it up and show disrespect for it, he comes back and kicks you out (e.g., see Luke 12:45-46). Was the home free? Sure, but there were some responsibilities and expectations that came with you receiving this free gift. Do you see it differently? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
