from:"Bruce Woodford"

[TruthTalk] The Cross

2004-01-23 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear brothers and sisters,

I have recently been listening to Wayne Jacobsen (of www.lifestream.org) 
speaking on The Cross.  I'm beginning to realize how little appreciation 
I've had and how little I understand of the cross and it's practical 
implications in my life and relationship to the Father and the Lord Jesus.

I'm coming to realize that it is a subject of far greater importance than I 
've ever given to it before! Have any of you studied/received teaching on 
the subject of the cross so that it has made a marked difference in how you 
practically and personally relate to the Father, to the world, and to other 
believers around you?
If so, would you care to share your thoughts on any or all of the scriptures 
below?

I Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the 
gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of 
none effect.18  For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish 
foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.19  For it 
is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing 
the understanding of the prudent.20  Where is the wise? where is the scribe? 
where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of 
this world?21  For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew 
not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that 
believe.
22  For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:23  But we 
preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks 
foolishness;24  But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ 
the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

I Corinthians 2:1  And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with 
excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.2 
 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and 
him crucified.3  And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much 
trembling.4  And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of 
man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:5  That your 
faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Galatians 2:20  I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, 
but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live 
by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should 
not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set 
forth  (previously described/written), crucified among you?

Galatians 6:14  But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our 
Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the 
world.

I would really appreciate help in practically understanding these things.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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[TruthTalk] Baptism for the dead

2003-12-13 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Kevin, Dave, Judy and David,

I've been reading your posts on this subject and would like to make some
observations and suggest another view of this subject than has been
expressed.

First of all, it seems that two views have been discussed here:
(1) The Mormon view, that Christians are baptized on behalf of other people
who have already died and have been buried.
(2) The view that those to which Paul refers, who were baptized for the
dead, were not believers but pagans.

Kevin and David have concluded that this view is the correct one on the
basis of the third person pronoun they which seems to stand in contrast to
the second person pronouns ye, you and your which Paul uses of the
Corinthian saints whom he is addressing.

I agree that such pronouns are very important and need to be noted in order
to discover exactly who it is that is being referred to. But I do not find
any other reference in this chapter to pagans! But I do find the third
person pronouns they and them used a number of times in this chapter and
most of these instances refer to believers!
-In verse 10 them is used of the 500 plus brethren (v.6) and James and all
the apostles (v.7).
-In verses 18 and 20 these pronouns are used of they which are fallen
asleep in Jesus and of them that slept.
-In verse 23 they is used of theybthat are Christ's at His coming.
-In verse 35 they is used of the dead.
-In verse 35 they is used of those that are earthy.
So I see no compelling reason to conclude that that they that are baptized
for the dead in verse 29 MUST be PAGANS!!

Rather, the they in this verse refers to those whom the text designates,
namely those who are baptized for the dead!
The question remains, who are baptized FOR THE DEAD??

I think we have disregarded many statements of scripture when seeking to
understand this passage, simply because Mormons teach an entire doctrine
which is based on this verse alone!
Think about the facts of scripture:
-baptism of believers portrays death, burial and resurrection. Romans 6:3,4
-believers are dead to sin and thus freed from sin. Romans 6:2,7
-we are dead with Christ and thus will live with him. Romans 6:8
-we are to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God.
Romans 6:11
-we are alive from the dead. Romans 6:13
-we were sinners when Christ died for us Romans 5:8 and the wages of sin is
death. Romans 6:23
-we are become dead to the law by the body of Christ that we might be
married to the resurrected Christ. Romans 7:4,6
-II Cor.5:14 tells us that if one died for all, then were all dead, and
that he died for all that they which live should not henceforth live unto
themselves, but unto him which died for them and rose again.
-I through the law am dead to the law... Galatians 2:19
-I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ
liveth in me. Galatians 2:20
-We who were dead in our sins and in the uncircumcison of our flesh, God has
quickened together with Christ, having forgiven us all our trespasses.
Colossians 2:13
- Because we are dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, we should
no longer be living in the world as being subject to such ordinances as
touch not, taste not or handle not. Colossians 2:20
-We are dead and our lives are hidden with Christ in God. Colossians 3:3
-We being dead should live unto righteousness, I Peter 2:24
-The gospel is preached to them that are dead and those who believe it
live unto God in the spirit. I Peter 4:6

Now with all of this testimony of scripture before us, let me ask two
questions.
(1) According to scripture, who is to be baptized?
Disciples of Christ (Matthew 28:19),
Believers (Acts 8:37),
those who are brethren in Christ (Acts 9:17,18),
those who have received the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:47)
(2) When believers are baptized in obedience to the Word of Christ, WHOSE
DEATH ARE THEY BEING BAPTIZED FOR? WHOSE DEATH IS IN VIEW? WHOSE DEATH ARE
THEY TESTIFYING TO?
Is it not THEIR OWN???

If they have not died to sin, if they are not dead with Christ, if they are
not dead to the law, if their death did not take place by means of
crucifixion, and if they have not been quickened from the dead, THEY ARE NOT
SAVED AND THUS ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO BE BAPTIZED!!

In view of these truths, does not I Cor.15:29 teach what many other
scriptures clearly teach, that believers are baptized for the dead, i.e.
reckoning themselves to be dead indeed unto sin and alive unto God?
Does not this view have far more scriptural basis than either of the two
views previousl;y suggested?
What do you think?

Your servant for Jesus' sake,
Bruce
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[TruthTalk] Christmas trees

2003-12-06 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,

You wrote:Do you really think that what is pagan for some may not be pagan
for others??? Isn't this a classic example of humanistic moral relativism?
The main question is not what someone feels is pagan. (God doesn't really
care about our feelings when judgment day arrives, does He?) The question
should be, I think, what does the Lord say is pagan? Can we discuss it from
that angle? Ideas, anyone? How do we discover whether or not the Lord
considers having a Christmas tree is an ungodly practice from the Lord's
point of view? Marlin has brought up this issue several times, and I think
it would be a good thing to discuss as a group.

Could I suggest that consideration of scripture is always wise when seeking
to deal with such questions?

One example that comes to mind is I Cor.8. From that background, one could
ask the question: Does God consider eating meat offered to idols as
idolatry/pagan?

Can eating meat offered to idols be sinful for one person and absolutely
righteous for another? I believe that it can!

Is it then possible that the same sort of principle could be applied to
having a Christmas tree?
If one Christian views it as sinful or is stumbled by it, is it sin for him
to have one?

But for another who knows that an evergreen tree is nothing but an evergreen
tree, can it be perfectly righteous for him to have one and decorate it?

Another example is the observance of days in Romans 14. Can it be sinful
for one man to esteem one day above another? On the other hand, can it be
sinful for another man to observe every day alike?

In other words, if the Holy Spirit has convicted me that it would be sinful
for me to do a certain thing (which scripture does not specificly say is
sinful) can I rightfully teach others that it is sinful for everyone to do
that thing which scripture does not specificly say is sinful?

Do these passages shed any light on the issue of Christian's and their views
of Christmas trees?

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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[TruthTalk] Re-unite with adulterous spouse? (My apolgies!)

2003-11-27 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Folks,
My previous post in response to Izzy was my first since receiving the digest 
version of TT. I'd fully intended to delete the digest before sending my 
response but hit send before I'd done so!

Please forgive me for sending the entire digest as part of my post!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Seventh Day Sabbath Keeping

2003-11-13 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hu Slade,
You wrote:Speaking of tradition... the Original Apostolic Church kept the
Sabbath AND met to eat a communal meal on the First day of the week.

I believe the original apostolic church was found at Jerusalem. Where do you
find that the Jerusalem church kept the sabbath?

The church at Jerusalem was originally composed of Jewish people only. They
are the ones who are commanded to and ought to keep the sabbath, circumcise
their male children, keep the passover etc etc. But Gentile believers in
the church have no such responsibilities and are thus not disobedient to any
commandment of God by not keeping commandments which do not apply to them!

Also, where do you find that the Jerusalem church met for a communal meal
on the first day of the week? What about Acts 2:46?

As for the first day of the week in Acts 20:7, there is no evidence of a
church of Troasians in scripture! (No record of any conversions there,
baptisms there, believers there etc!) The disciples who came together to
break bread were all named in the context and they were Paul and his
travelling companions! The text does not say that they ONLY broke bread on
the first day of the week (breaking bread in scripture is simply the
breaking of food into portions prior to eating it). What is DOES say is,
Paul preached unto them ready to depart on the morrow. The phrase on the
first day of the week when the disciples came together to break bread is
simply a modifier which tells you when Paul preached unto them, it is not
the major emphasis of the sentence!

I believe they broke bread daily (just as you and I do) and for gospel
workers in a strange city, it would be quite natural to come together to do
so. So this was just one of many comings together to break bread.

While Israelites are commanded to observe the 7th day sabbath forever
(Ex.31:13,17), the new covenant churches of scripture were clearly
instructed by the Spirit of God through Paul as follows:And YOU (Gentiles)
being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He
quickedned together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Blottinging out the handwriting of ordinances that was against US (Paul was
an Israelite), which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing
it to His cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a
show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge
YOU (Gentiles) in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the
new moon, or of the sabbath: which are a shadow of theings to come; but the
body is of Christ. Colossians 2:13-17

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-05 Thread Bruce Woodford

Slade,
You wrote:Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh. was not a
native-born Israeli.

May I ask you why or upon what scriptural evidence you make this claim? How
could someone be of the tribe of Judah and NOT be a native born Israeli???

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Woodford
Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

Dear Slade,

I had asked if you could show even one Gentile in scripture which later

became an Israelite.

You claim that Kalev (most commonly known as Caleb) was not native born

because he had to ask for an inheritance.

Brother, this is just NOT SO! Remember the 12 spies that were sent into
the

land in Numbers 13? One man was chosen from each tribe of Israel.
Numbers

13:6 clearly shows that Caleb was an Israelite of the tribe of Judah by

birth into the family of Jephunneh.

Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.

So as far as I can tell (with no scriptural evidence to the contrary) no
one

born a Gentile has ever become and Israelite! But both Gentiles and
Jews

who are converted to Christ become Christians, members in the Body of

Christ, saints, disciples, believers etc.

So where has the false idea come from that Christians are all

Israelites???

Your brother in Christ,

Bruce

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Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-05 Thread Bruce Woodford

Him Terry,
I'll be honest with you,  ...I do not know!
Bruce

From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:51:21 -0600
Brother Bruce:

Is that the reason that the temple still had the Gentile court in 70 A.D.?

Terry

. But circumcision does not make a
 stranger into an Isrealite.
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RE: [TruthTalk] Seventh Day Sabbath Keeping

2003-11-05 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,
You wrote:Bruce, I am, as a Believer, part of spiritual Israel. I am not
a gentile (ie: heathen, pagan), and don't wish to be considered as one.
You may consider yourself to be one if you wish. Then it would make perfect
sense for you to ignore whatever you wish in the scriptures.

Dear Sister, a three questions here:
(1)Where in scripture do you find the concept of spiritual Israel???
(2)Where in scripture do you find the idea that Gentile means heathen or
pagan??? Certainly there are many Gentiles who are heathen or pagan,
but Gentile does NOT mean heathen or
pagan, it simply means nation!

In this regard, please notice Acts 15:23,24 And they wrote letters by them
after this manner: The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto
the BRETHREN WHICH ARE OF THE GENTILES in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Forasmuch as we have heard that certain which went out from us have troubled
you with words, subverting yoiur souls saying, 'Ye must be circumcised and
keep the law:' to which we gave no such commandment:

(3) From my last post, are you aware of any scriptural statements that would
refute or contradict my understanding that, The Ten Commandments as a
unit have never been addressed to or required of any Gentile! Individually,
nine of them have certainly been addressed to non-Israelites, but not all
ten and not the 4th commandment! If you believeI am wrong, I am willing to
be corrected by clear scriptural statements.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-05 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,

You wrote:Bruce, I don't have time to do the research for you, but if you
studied Jewish history you would understand that not only are gentiles
accepted into Jewry as permanent equals and Israelites, but are never
allowed to be disowned as such. Many such people who fled from Egypt were
part of the
lineage of Jesus, Himself.

Dear Sister, I'm not asking you to do my research for me! I'm asking how do
YOU, yourself know from scripture that any Gentiles ever become
Israelites???

I'm not so sure about Gentiles who fled from Egypt being part of the lineage
of Christ (how do you know this?), but I do know that a number of Gentile
women (Ruth and Rahab) are part of the lineage of Christ. Does scripture
ever teach us that they became Israelites by marrying Israelite men???

I also know that gentiles sojourning among the Israelites could be
circumcised and thus qualify to partake of the Passover. BUT are you aware
of any scripture that teaches that those who were not born Israelites became
Israelites by being circumcised? If so, are circumcised Arabs actually
Israeli's??

I've asked these questions before and am not receiving answers!

I'm hoping you might answer these questions with scripture, if indeed they
can be answered. If they cannot be answered with scripture, I just wish you
would be willing to acknowledge the fact.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-04 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,

You wrote:Bruce,  Many gentiles (gers/strangers) became Israelites.  See 
below: Izzy

Ex. 12-37 37   And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to 
Succoth,about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children.
38 And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even 
very much cattle.
41   And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, 
even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went 
out from the land of Egypt.
42   It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out 
from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all 
the children of Israel in their generations.
43   And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the 
passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
44   But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast 
circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
45   A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
46   In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the 
flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
47   All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
48   And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover 
to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near 
and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no 
uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49   One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that 
sojourneth among you.

Izzy, It is true that many who were not native born Israelites WERE 
CIRCUMCISED.  God commanded Abraham to circumcise every male that was born 
in his house and bought with his money. But circumcision does not make a 
stranger into an Isrealite.   If it did, all Arabs would be Israelites for 
they are circumcised!!!  As you have pointed out from scripture, no male 
could partake of the passover who was not circumcised. If strangers 
sojourning among Israel wanted to eat the passover, they had to be 
circumcised and in that they were circumcised they became like those who 
were born in the land. But scripture never says that circumcision alone 
makes a Gentile into an Israelite!!  It simply enables him to eat the 
passover.

Nor does scripture ever teach that circumcison of the heart makes a 
Gentile convert to Christ into an Israelite!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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RE: [TruthTalk] Seventh Day Sabbath Keeping

2003-11-04 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,

Relative to tjhe Sabbath, you quoted parts of Exodus 20:
8 Remember (1) the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 (2) Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall
not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female
servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you.

But you seem to have ignored the specific people to which these instructions
were addressed!

See verse 2: I am the Lord thy God which brought thee out of the land of
Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Such a statement could not be made of any other nation but Israel!

The Ten Commandments as a unit have never been addressed to or required of
any Gentile! Individually, nine of them have certainly been addressed to
non-Israelites, but not all ten and not the 4th commandment! If you believe
I am wrong, I am willing to be corrected by clear scriptural statements.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-03 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Slade,

I had asked if you could show even one Gentile in scripture which later
became an Israelite.

You claim that Kalev (most commonly known as Caleb) was not native born
because he had to ask for an inheritance.

Brother, this is just NOT SO! Remember the 12 spies that were sent into the
land in Numbers 13? One man was chosen from each tribe of Israel. Numbers
13:6 clearly shows that Caleb was an Israelite of the tribe of Judah by
birth into the family of Jephunneh.

Of the tribe of Judah, Caleb the son of Jephunneh.

So as far as I can tell (with no scriptural evidence to the contrary) no one
born a Gentile has ever become and Israelite! But both Gentiles and Jews
who are converted to Christ become Christians, members in the Body of
Christ, saints, disciples, believers etc.

So where has the false idea come from that Christians are all
Israelites???

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-02 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Slade,

I wrote:Can you name even one person in scripture who was born a Gentile in 
the  flesh who is called by God an Israelite after conversion to Christ? 
If  you can, you will help me a lot on this because to date, I am unaware of 
any.

You responded:Joshua

I have found 5 different Joshuas in scripture:
-the son of Nun, who succeded Moses,
-the Bethshemite of I Sam.6:18,
-the governor of the city, II Kings 23:8,
-the son of Josedech the High Priest Haggai 1:1, and
-the High Priest, Zechariah 3:1.
To which of these were you referring? And how do you know that he was born a 
Gentile and became an Israelite?

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-01 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dean,

When I wrote:Brother, are you not mixing your metaphors? A vine is NOT an
olive tree!...

You responded:*The vine (Jesus Christ John15:5) and the election are the
same as is the olive tree-due to the fact that we are the partakers of the
root and fatness of the olive tree. v.17

These statements are totally unrelated by scripture! When the Spirit uses
distinct terms, He intends distinct meanings.

You continued:Roman 9:7..but in Isaac shall thy seed be called. The
children of the flesh are represented by Abraham and the children of the
spirit are represented by Isaac-who we are grafted into the vine/olive tree
by. Those of Abraham are cast out we are grafted in.Look at Gal.4:21-31

Dean, you really need to pay attention to the text! The contrast of
Galatians 4 is not between TWO MEN (Abraham and Isaac), but rather between
TWO WOMEN (Hagar and Sarah) and their sons (Ishmael and Isaac)!

Nor does Abraham represent the children of the flesh who are cast out! Both
Ishmael and Isaac were sons of Abraham! Rather Galatians 3:29 teaches us
that, If ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to
the promise.

Further, you quoted bits and pieces of your text: For it is written,That
Abram had two sons,.. v.24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the
two covenants;...v.30 So then brethren we are not children of the bondwomen
,but of the free.

Then you made an unsubstantiated claim:The same vine- the same tree-the
same promise-the same commandments.

You would have been better to read and quote the whole text including
Galatians 4:23, ALL of v.24 and verses 25-31! None of which speak of a
vine, an olive tree or commandments!!!

Then you quoted two other texts which for the life of me I cannot see how
they have any bearing on the discussion of the vine and the olive tree!

1John 5:3 For this is the love of God,that we keep his commandments:and his
commandments are not grievous.
Matt.19:17...but if thou wilt enter into life keep the commandments.

I had written:Romans 11 does NOT teach that the olive tree is Israel, but
rather the election. See verses 5,7 and 28. As Gentiles who believe in
Christ, we are grafted in to the election but not into Israel.

You responded*As Gentiles who believe in Christ we are grafted into the
election that is the promise giving to Israel thru Isaac unto Jacob (whom is
Israel- the son of the promise-Gen.3:28 Thy name shall be no more Jacob,
but Israel...) which we are partakers of.

Dear Dean, you really had my head spinning on this one! Gen 3 has no verse
28! I finally realized you meant 32:28 (Jacob's name changed to Israel). But
there is no expression son of promise that I can find in scripture! But
in Gal.4:28 and 29 we read: Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the
children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted
him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

As far as I can tell from scripture, all Israelites became Israelites by
natural fleshly birth. (Can you name anyone in scripture who is called an
Israelite who was not born an Israelite in the flesh?) But not all flesh
born Israelites who are of Israel are Israel (prince of God)! (Romans
9:6) Instead, as the Lord Jesus plainly declared of some of them, Ye are
of your father the devil and the lusts of your father ye will do. John
8:44

Can you name even one person in scripture who was born a Gentile in the
flesh who is called by God an Israelite after conversion to Christ? If
you can, you will help me a lot on this because to date, I am unaware of any
such Israelite!

I am willing to learn from clear scriptural statements, but refuse
assumptions which have no scriptural basis at all.

Bruce

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RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-11-01 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,

In response to Dean's post, you wrote:Galatians 3:29 And if [Rom 4:13; 1
Cor 3:23] you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs
according to promise.

Replacement theology is dangerously doctrinally incorrect. We have not
replaced Abraham or his descendants. We have been grafted into them, and
that only by God's amazing grace.

Dear sister, replacement theology, as I understand, is the belief that
Israel (the nation),which was always to be quite distinct from all other
nations, has been replaced by the church, which is composed of believers
from every kindred and tongue and nation. This certainly is incorrect,
unscriptural and unsound doctrine!

Scripture clearly distinguishes between Israel, the nations (Gentiles), and
the saints in the old covenant scriptures. So too, the Jew, the Gentile and
the church of God (I Cor.10:32) are clearly distinguished in the new! Jews
never become Gentiles, Gentiles never become Jews and the church of God
never becomes Jewish or Gentile, but rather is the company in which the
barriers and enmity between the two are done away in Christ! See Ephesians
2 and 3.

Up to and including Christ, ALL of Abraham's seed were descendants by
physical birth. But Christ had no physical descendents, but rather all of
the children of God are born of the Spirit (John 3). That is why those who
are Christ's are ABRAHAM'S SEED. But scripture never ever teaches (as far
as I know) that those who are Christ's are Israelites!

I have been wrong many times and have appreciated being corrected by
scriptural statements which others have brought to my attention. If anything
I have written here is in error or contrary to clear scriptural statements
of which you are aware, I will thank you to correct me and will gladly
acknowledge my error.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-16 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,
You wrote:Bruce, I am surprised at you for wondering why the issue of the 
10 Commandments being banned by our federal government is cause for alarm to 
God-fearing Americans. It seems that if there is, indeed, a God who judges 
nations for their attitude towards Him (and His Word) that this alone is 
enough to make us shudder!

I whole heartedly agree with you that there is tremendous lack of the fear 
of God in our society, and also that God judges not only nations but men and 
women for their attitude towards Him and His Word. However, that was not the 
point I was seeking to make.  I was rather trying to emphasize that the 10 
Commandments (as a unit) were not given to all mankind inclusively, but 
rather to the nation of Israel exclusively.  (See Exodus 20:2) In fact, the 
Ten Commandments comprised the very covenant that God made with the nation 
of Israel at Sinai.(Deut 4:13; 5:3) He made no such covenant with any other 
people on earth!  However many other scriptures clearly indicate that 9 of 
the 10 ARE  required by God of all people.

Having a godly attitude toward the Word of God does NOT mean obeying every 
command given to every person, group or nation in the Book! Parents are not 
to obey commands given to children. Men are not to obey commands given to 
women. Women are not to obey commands given to men. Jews are not to obey 
commands given to Gentiles and Gentiles are not to obey commands given to 
Jews! For me to love and obey the Word of God means knowing and obeying the 
commands that God intended for me!  Obeying commands that God did not intend 
for me but rather for someone else may actually be disobedient, IF such 
obedience violates commands that are for me!

BTW, were you aware that while 13 or 14 different designations for the Ten 
Commandments are used in scripture, the term the law is NOT one of 
them?!!

The law is used of the Pentateuch (the law of Moses) and it is also used 
of the entire scriptures from Genesis to Malachi.  But nowhere in scripture 
is the termthe law used particularly and specificly of just the Ten 
Commandments.

I had asked: How many Christians that you know, who support keeping the Ten 
Commandments in Federal Buildings, feel any responsibility to keep the 
seventh day sabbath (Ex.20:8-11; Deut.5:11-14)?

You responded:I do. And the Holy Spirit is calling many others, also. Only 
He knows how many. 
Dear Sister, even though you may not be of the nation of Israel, it is 
certainly your prerogative to observe the 7th day as a sabbath if you so 
choose. (Romans 14:5,6) However, there is no scripture that indicates that 
any Gentile or any non-Jewish Christian has any RESPONSIBILITY before God to 
keep the 7th day sabbath (or any other day!)

You wrote to me:The fact that you think the Ten Commandments were ONLY 
given to the nation of Israel makes me realize that you are not quite as 
enlightened, spiritually, as I assumed you were. To whom are we grafted 
in, but the olive tree of Israel?

Izzy, I heartily acknowledge that I am not nearly as enlightened 
spiritually as I would like to be! But I am aware of the teaching relative 
to the olive tree of Romans 11. However, I am not yet aware of any 
statement in Romans 11 or any other scripture which equates the olive tree 
to Israel!  Are you?

It is my understanding that the olive tree does not picture Israel (as a 
nation), nor does it picture the sum total of Israelites which have 
acknowledged their Messiah. Neither of these things are taught or inferred 
in Romans 11. Rather, I believe, that the olive tree of this chapter 
stands for the election of which we read in Romans 11 verses 5,7,and 28.   
Israel (as a nation) was chosen (elected) by God to be a special people unto 
Himself by which God would bless the world. (Deut.7:6,7) However this 
election was NOT an election to salvation.  Many of Israel became very proud 
and haughty as a result of this election. Scripture is clear that God 
resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. So the election of Romans 
11 is a specific KIND OF PEOPLE, but it is not a national group.  The KIND 
of people which God has elected to save are clearly described in I 
Cor.1:27and 28.  The purpose why God chose to save that specific KIND is 
stated in verse 29.  Thus the election is composed of people of this KIND  
from every nation under heaven.

You wrote:We are not saved by obedience to Torah. We are not saved by 
abstinence from sin. We are saved only by faith in the redeeming sacrifice 
of Jesus! But we express our faith through obedience to His Word, as faith 
without works is dead. Would you believe a persons confession of faith in 
Christ if you knew he was an adulterer and liar? Of course not! (Bill 
Clinton comes to mind as a good example. He walked around openly flaunting 
his Bible, and he claimed to be a Believer-did you fall for it?)

I never did see any fruit (evidence of faith)  in Bill Clinton. However 
although David was an adulterer and

RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-16 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,

You wrote:Bruce, You believe that God's Torah was for Jews only; not for
ALL of God's people. However, Galatians 3 states in v7 Know ye therefore
that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

So how do you figure?

Two comments here, Sister:

(1) I have never said that God's Torah was for the Jews only! I did say
that the Ten Commandments, as a unit, including the 7th day sabbath
commandment was given only for Israel, but that individually all the other 9
commandments were also given for all peoples.

(2) re. Galatians 3:7, all children of Abraham are not Jews ! Abraham
had many sons: Ishmael, Isaac, Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbak and
Shuah. Not one of them was an Israelite although they were all of the seed
of Abraham!

Abraham had many grandsons including: Esau and Jacob, Sheba, Dedan, Ephah,
Epher, Hanoch, Abidan,Eldaah. But of all of Abraham's grandsons, not one of
them was an Israelite although all were of the seed of Abraham! Only Jacob,
when he was renamed Israel and his descendants were Israelites.

So we see one way of being the seed of Abraham is to be a direct physical
descendant of Abraham's.

But there is another way to become the seed of Abraham, and that is through
Christ. Jesus was a direct descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel),
Judah etc. But He had no physical descendants so those who are the seed of
Abraham BY FAITH, are those who are born again and transformed in their
spirits. Such DO become the seed of Abraham, but nowhere does scripture say
that they become Israel, or the seed of Israel!

Does this help?

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-15 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Judy,
You wrote:Being sworn in at Court is not the same as swearing an oath and
the Bible represents God in the Courtroom; ...

Can you tell us what the difference is? And also how swearing in court is
related to the commands of scripture to swear not at all but to let your yea
be yea and your nay, nay?

When I asked how many keep the 7th day sabbath etc...
Your esponded:...God gave this Law at the start because of transgressions
and it is impossible to be self
governing without a healthy fear of God. Since it is this law which brings
one to Christ, why do you say it is ONLY given for the nation of Israel? Is
God a respecter of persons?

When you say, this law, which law were you referring to? The sabbath
commanment? or the Ten Commandments as a unit?

Are you aware that scripture uses 13 or 14 different designations for the
Ten Commandments but Law is NOT one of them??!! The term The law is
used of the Pentateuch or of the entire scriptures from Genesis to Malachi,
but never of the Ten alone.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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RE: [TruthTalk] Something To Ponder

2003-10-14 Thread Bruce Woodford

Izzy wrote:Why do I have to swear on the Bible in court when the Ten 
Commandments cannot be displayed in a federal building?

Terry wrote:Good question, but the truth is, you are not required to swear 
on the Bible. An option is to solemnly confirm.

Bruce asks: Is it not affirm?

Izzy responded:I wouldn't trust anyone who chose that option.

But here is another perspective:  The very Bible on which people swear 
commands them not to do that very thing!!!
Matthew 5:33  Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old 
time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine 
oaths:
34  But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's 
throne:
35  Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it 
is the city of the great King.
36  Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one 
hair white or black.
37  But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is 
more than these cometh of evil.
James 5:12  But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, 
neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; 
and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

For this very reason, many godly Christians refuse to swear on the Bible in 
court but rather choose to affirm,(let their yea be yea)!

What is all the hoopla about the Ten Commandments by Christians all about??? 
 How many Christians that you know, who support keeping the Ten 
Commandments in Federal Buildings, feel any responsibility to keep the 
seventh day sabbath (Ex.20:8-11; Deut.5:11-14)?Why should a law that was 
only given for the nation of Israel be displayed in United States Federal 
buildings??

How many of these same people have married other spouses when the spouse to 
which God originally joined them was still living and thus violated the 
commandment, Thou shalt not commit adultery.?

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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[TruthTalk] Temple of God in II Thess.2:4

2003-10-05 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear brothers and sisters,

I have a question that is puzzling me and I wonder if any of you Bible
students can help me. What is
the temple (NAOS) of God in which the man of sin sits, showing himself
that he is God
( 2 Thessalonians 2:4) ?

This is the same expression that is used in 6 other texts in the new
testament:
Matthew 26:61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple
of God, and to build it in three days.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the
Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God
destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2 Corinthians 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?
for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in
them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my
people.
Revelation 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the
angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar,
and them that worship therein.
Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was
seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and
voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

The word NAOS is used of Herod's temple in Jerusalem in Matthew 23:21,35;
27:5,51; Mark 15:38; Luke
1:9,21,22; 23:45 and John 2:20

It is used of any temple made with hands in Acts 7:48 and 17:24.

It is used of the Lord Jesus' own body which was raised in three days. John
2:19,21

It is used of the believer's body. I Cor.6:19

It is used of the church, the Body of Christ in 2 Corinthians 6:16 and
Ephesians 2:21.

In Rev.11:1, the temple of God seems to be a physical temple in Jerusalem
that can be measured and which has a court around it.

In Rev.11:19, the temple of God is in heaven and inside it is the ark of His
testament (covenant).

So in which temple does the man of sin sit???

I look forward to receiving your thoughts and suggestions.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Salvation

2003-10-02 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Terry,

You wrote:I have been following your comments with great interest, and 
agreeing with many of them, but you response to Judy  was a little 
perplexing.

Could you tell me if it is your contention that repentance is not necessary 
for salvation?

Dear brother, I'm not at all sure what I may have written that might have 
caused you to question such a thing! But letme be quick to assure you that I 
certainly do believe that repentance and faith in Christ are both necessary 
for salvation. Acts 20:21 is one passage (of many) that make this clear.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Differences in Christ?

2003-10-01 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Judy,

When I wrote:I think you are well aware, for example, that Jews (even
believing Jews) have never been relieved of their responsibility relative to
physical circumcision. But Gentiles have no such responsibility. See Acts
15.
You responded:Believing Jews have no such responsibility Bruce because
since the resurrection circumcision has been that of the heart and not the
flesh, this explained by Gal 3:28 ie: there is no difference between.

Dear Sister, I find this very hard to believe! If there was a big church
council in Acts 15 which concluded that gentile believers did not need to be
circumcised, why did not that same council also make clear that Jewish
believers did not need to continue circumcision in the flesh as well??? It
is because, when God commands something to be done FOREVER by a particular
people, He does not change or cancel such a command in mid stream!!

Judy, when I referred you to numerous scriptures that explain different
responsibilities for Jews and Gentiles, bond and free and male and female,
you responded:
I see what you are saying Bruce, but the above pertains to what we do
rather than who we are.
Precisely! All responsibilities have to do with what we do! But the
DIFFERENCES in responsibilities are due to DIFFERENCES in who we are!

When I pointed out that scripture declares that we are dead to the law ,
You responded:Yes scripture does say that but we must understand that this
declaration is conditional upon our walking after the Spirit. If the flesh
remains active and kicking then we are not dead to the law because the law
is judging the deeds of the flesh as we write.

Dear sister, would you please go to Romans 7:4 and Galatians 2:19 and their
surrounding contexts and show me the condition of which you speak. Both of
these passages are speaking of A FACT OF HISTORY! (Not a conditional
promise, i.e. If you do such and such you will die to the law.)

When I wrote:As to the curse of the law, that too was fully dealt with for
us by Christ! Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made
a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a
tree: Galatians 3:13
You responded:Yes, He was made a curse for us and He paid the price for our
transgressions and iniquities. However, once more the conditions are that we
repent and turn from them.

Dear Judy, The statement of scripture in Gal.3:13 is Christ HATH REDEEMED
US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW...! Again, this is a stated fact of history
and is NOT associated with any conditional clause at all!

I also wrote:Since we are not under the law as children under a
schoolmaster but have been adopted as sons Jews and Gentiles, bondmen
and freemen and males and females can come together to minister mutually one
to another as members in the body of Christ in which we are one.
You responded:Yes potentially Bruce, but just as the Jews during the time
of Jesus' earthly ministry were potentially the children of Abraham - but
didn't walk in the faith of Abraham and so didn't receiving the blessings of
Abraham. The exact same thing applies here.

Dear sister, there is no reference at all in the text of scripture to the
potentiality of which you speak! Paul was writing to the churches of
Galatia (1:4) to brethren (1:11), to those who had received the Spirit
(3:2). There was no question that these were regenerate people so they were
already members in the Biody of Christ whether they were Jew, Greek, bond,
free, male or female.
Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

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Re: [TruthTalk] Differences between men and women etc who are in Christ

2003-10-01 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Judy,
When I wrote: The church is composed of MEN AND WOMEN who are saved
You responded:Actually today the professing church is composed of the
mixed multitude but the Church Jesus returns for is the spirits of just
men/women made perfect. The Church has been saved, is being saved, and will
be saved. It is the soul that needs saving and this happens as we walk it
out daily in the Spirit

Dear Sister, I did not speak, nor does scripture speak of the professing
church! The church of God in any community has never ever included even
one false professor! The Lord knows them that are His and it is the Lord
that adds to His church those that are being saved.

Hebrews 12:23 does NOT say that the church is the spirits of just men made
perfect! What is
DOES say is this:
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in
heaven, and to God the
Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

The church is God's new covenant people, but the spirits of just men made
perfect are the spirits
of old testament saints! See Heb.11:40

Bruce

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RE: [TruthTalk] Differences between men and women etc who are in Christ

2003-10-01 Thread Bruce Woodford

Izzy,

You asked:Would you care to define the differences between the spirit and
soul ? Which part goes to heaven? Which part do you think with, or make
decisions with, etc?
Excellent questions sister!

I Thess.5:23 makes clear that we are tripartite or 3 part beings: spirit,
soul and body.

I understand the spirit as that by which we can relate to or have fellowship
and communication with God who is a Spirit. We may worship, pray, and have
fellowship etc with God because we are spirits made in the image of God.

I understand the soul as that which enables us to relate to or have
communication with other souls. We may speak, love, hate, befriend, comfort,
aggravate, encourage or discourage other souls.
I understand our bodies as that which enables us to relate to the physical
universe around us by way of our senses.

All three need to be transformed in order to be in the kingdom of God!
Re. our spirits, See John 3:3. (Notice this passage has to do with one's
relationship to God.)

Re. our souls, see I Cor.6:9-11. (Notice that this passage has to do with
transformed relationships with other people!)

Re. our bodies, see I Cor.15:50-54. (Notice that this passage has to do with
the transformation of our bodies. Presently they are flesh and blood which
are corruptible and mortal. But at the coming of the Lord they will be
changed to be like th glorified body of the Lord Jesus which was flesh and
bones but not flesh and blood. Luke 24:39

Christians do not go to heaven when they die as most of us have been
wrongly taught! Rather, we are already seated with Christ in the heavenly
places, (Eph 2:6). This is factually true of our spirits, but our bodies
(with their 5 physical senses have no way of realizing spiritual realities!)
So it is after we die and are delivered from the limitations of our bodies
that we will truly experience what heaven is like, but we are already there
in our spirits!
I would think that thought and will (decision making) are capabilities of
the spirit. Angels are spirits and they think and exercise their wills.
What do you think, or what scriptures would you relate to such questions,
sister?
Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

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Re: [TruthTalk] Ten Commandments Support

2003-09-29 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Carrolll,

You wrote:* I would listen to this man- he is correct on the Sabbath-it is 
also observed in heaven. We stand guilty for breaking it and also stand 
guilty for not working the remaining six days.

If Marlin is right, he will be able to show commands of God addressed to 
non-Israelites requiring that they keep the 7th day sabbath. But such cannot 
be found anywhere in the Book!

It is true that God rested on the 7th day from His work of creation, but 
what scriptural statement teaches you that it is also observed in heaven?

Your servant for Jesus' sake,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Differences between men and women etc who are in Christ

2003-09-29 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Judy,

You wrote:We need to understand that the scriptures relate spiritual
truths. Sure a man and a woman have physiological differences but there is
no difference spiritually between any of these groups and since our focus is
on the Kingdom of God this is what we must communicate. This understanding
is validated by Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of
Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe for there is no
difference 1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one
body whether Jews or Greeks whether slaves or free and we were all made to
drink of one Spirit Col 3:11 A renewal in which thee is no distinction
between Greek and Jew, circumcized and uncircumcized, barbarian, scythian,
slave and freeman but Christ is all and in all

Dear Sister, I wholeheartedly agree with you that in the spiritual realm
there is no difference. Jews and Gentiles, bondmen and freemen, and men
and women are redeemed by the same blood, indwelt by the same Spirit, gifted
by the same spirit, and are members in the same body, linked to the same
Head. However, no church whether the Body of Christ, a church in a city or a
church in a house is composed simply of spirits! The church is composed of
MEN AND WOMEN who are saved. Men and women are tripartite beings (spirit,
soul, and body). It is because of differences in their tripartite beings
that they have different roles and responsibilities.

You wrote:We need to be careful that we don't turn the New Testament into a
'rule book'. BTW you never did say exactly what the differences you referred
to are.

I did refer you to numerous scriptures which make those different roles and
responsibilities very clear. You can read them for yourself.

Trust this helps,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Ten Commandments Support

2003-09-29 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Slade,

In response to my statement:No such command (i.e. to observe a 7th day
sabbath)was ever given to man (the race) at or after creation!...
You wrote:You have no proof that a Shabbat rest was NOT implemented by the
followers of YHVH before it was specifically given to Yisrael. Granted,
there is no proof the other way either. See the fault of your argument?

Brother, I am not arguing. I simply stated a fact! I never attempted to
argue that nobody ever observed a 7th day sabbath before Ex.16. I simply
stated that no command was ever given by God requiring such of the race.

I wrote:It is simply stated that on the 7th day God rested. Gen.2:2 No
observance of the 7th day by any man is ever recorded in scripture until
God commanded Israel and Israel alone to keep it as a day of rest as a sign
between them and God.

You responded:Exclusionary logic holds no water. If it did, then the only
examples of sexual immorality in the New Testament is adultery and
fornication, which mean it's perfectly fine to engage in intercourse with
animals because it is not SPECIFICALLY mentioned in the New Testament.

Dear brother, you are arguing against an argument that I never made! In the
scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament) there are commands given to
Israelites such as 7th day sabbath keeping and passover observance which are
never required of people of other nations.

There are also other commands given to both Israelites and strangers
(Gentiles). Such commands that were given in Leviticus are still valid today
and are reiterated in the Book of Acts for the instruction of new covenant
gentile believers.

In Leviticus 17 and 18 there are regulations regarding idolatry, eating of
blood, and a wide variety of illicit sexual practices including incest,
adultery, sodomy, and bestiality.

In Acts 15, the Jerusalem council was called to deal with the question of
whether or not gentile believers had to be circumcised. James focused the
attention of those gathered upon the writings of Moses. Moses never did
require Gentiles to be circumcised. But He did apply the prohibitions of
idolatry, eating of blood, and illicit sexual relations to gentiles.

As James reiterates these things, it is very clear that that he was teaching
from Lev.17 and 18. He uses one word, fornication to include ALL of the
above illicit relations. So your logic which concludes that bestiality is
perfectly fine for new covenant gentile believers is faulty! That
strangers of the O.T. and Gentiles of the new were to abstain from such
practices because they defile those who practice them and also defile the
land ios clear from Lev.17 and 18 and Acts 15.

See the letter that was written to the Gentile churches below and check out
the inserted references to Leviticus and see that Israelitres AND Gentiles
were given some of the same commands. (But, my point is that the commands to
circumcise, to observe the 7th day sabbath and to observe the passover were
NEVER given to Gentiles who were not direct physical descendants of
Abraham.)

Acts 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles
and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the
Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have
troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be
circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen
men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus
Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same
things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no
greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols (Lev.17:8,9), and from
blood (Lev.17:10-12), and from things strangled (Lev.17:13), and from
fornication(all of Lev.18, see verse 23 especially): from which if ye keep
yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

I hope this answers your objections to what I wrote.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Ten Commandments Support

2003-09-28 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Judy,
You wrote:So far as God is concerned putting on Christ means there is no
difference, this is what Gal 3:28 says.

Sister, I read Gal.3:28 over again, but I noticed that it does NOT say that
there is no difference between Jews and Greeks, bond and free and male and
female. Thank God for that! There are obviously many differences. But with
all our differences we are all one in Christ.

When I wrote:New covenant scriptures clearly teach that regenerate Jews
have responsibilities that are different from those of regenerate Greeks,
that regenerate bondmen have different responsibilities from those of
regenerate free men and that regenerate males have different
responsibilities than regenerate females. (There are distinct commands given
to each of these groups which are not required of the others.)...

You responded:I've been a student of scripture for a long time Bruce and
have never seen these different responsibilities. What is required of anyone
who comes to Christ other than to be conformed to His image?... I'm curious
about these 'different responsibilities' Bruce. What are they? We need to be
careful not to put burdens upon people that the Lord is not requiring.

Judy, I think you are well aware, for example, that Jews (even believing
Jews) have never been relieved of their responsibility relative to physical
circumcision. But Gentiles have no such responsibility. See Acts 15.
Servants and masters have differing responsibilities. See Ephesians 6:5;
Colossians 3:22; Colossians 4:1; 1 Timothy 6:1; Titus 2:9; 1 Peter 2:18

So too men and women have different responsibilities: See I Cor.11:1-16; I
Cor.14:26-40; Ephesians 5:22-25; I Tim.2:8-15; 3:8-12; II Tim.2:2-7 etc

I wrote:The point of the passage in Gal.3 is that none of these are any
longer under the schoolmaster (the law), but that by faith in Christ they
are all children of God and they are all one in Christ. Therefore in
Christ, there is no longer any barrier that hinders communion, communication
or mutual ministry between these groups because they are all members in the
same body.

And to this you responded:The law hasn't gone anywhere and yes we are free
from it so long as we walk after the Spirit. But break God's law and you
will see that it's curse still works.

Dear Sister, I never claimed that the law had gone anywhere! It is still
and will ever remain the scripture of which the theme is Christ! Nor did I
ever claim that were were free from the law! What I did say is what
scripture says, i.e. that we are not under the law. Scripture also
declares that we are dead to the law. As to the curse of the law, that too
was fully dealt with for us by Christ! Christ hath redeemed us from the
curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is
every one that hangeth on a tree: Galatians 3:13

Since we are not under the law as children under a schoolmaster but have
been adopted as sons Jews and Gentiles, bondmen and freemen and males
and females can come together to minister mutually one to another as members
in the body of Christ in which we are one.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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RE: [TruthTalk] The key?

2003-09-28 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,

Here's part two.  I trust that consideration of these truths relative to 
our walk of faith in the Spirit will be helpful to many of the Lord's dear 
people!

II. WALKING IN THE SPIRIT IS WALKING IN RIGHT RELATIONSHIP TO OTHERS.
   (With our eyes on the best interests of others.)
Romans 6:4   walk in newness of life.
Romans 13:13  Let us walk honestly, as in the day;
2 Corinthians 4:2  But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not 
walking in craftiness, nor
handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth 
commending ourselves to
every man's conscience in the sight of God.
2 Corinthians 10:3  For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the 
flesh: (WALKING IN
THE FLESH IS NOT WALKING AFTER THE FLESH!)
Ephesians 2:10  walk in good works.
Ephesians 4:1  walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Ephesians 5:2  walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us,
Ephesians 5:8  walk as children of light:
Ephesians 5:15  walk circumspectly, as wise,
Colossians 4:5 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the 
time.
1 Thessalonians 4:12   walk honestly toward them that are without,
1 John 1:7  walk in the light, as he is in the light,
2 John 1:4  I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in 
truth,
3 John 1:4   walk in truth.

III. WALKING IN THE SPIRIT IS WALKING A REGULATED WALK.  (Settles for 
nothing for one's self that is less than the best!)
 A. Everything is evaluated in view of the cross of Christ.
  Galatians 6:16  walk according to this rule,(What rule?
  -14  glorying in nothing, but in the cross of our Lord Jesus 
Christ, by whom the world is crucified
   unto me, and I unto the world.)

 B.Everything is evaluated in view of the surpassing excellency of the 
knowledge of Christ!
  Philippians 3:16  walk by the same rule(What rule?
   -8 COUNTING ALL THINGS BUT LOSS for the excellency of the knowledge 
of  Christ Jesus our
   Lord:
-SUFFERING THE LOSS OF ALL THINGS,
-COUNTING THEM BUT DUNG
   -that we may win Christ
   -9  And be found in him, not having our own righteousness, 
which is of  the law, but that
 which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness 
which is of God by faith:
   -10  That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, 
and the fellowship of his
 sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
-12 FOLLOWING AFTER, if that I may apprehend that for which also I  am 
apprehended of Christ
 Jesus.
-13 FORGETTING THE THINGS WHICH ARE BEHIND, REACHING FORTH UNTO THE 
THINGS WHICH ARE BEFORE, 14 PRESSING TOWARD THE MARK for the prize of the 
high calling of God in Christ Jesus.)

IV. WALKING IN THE SPIRIT IS WALKING A WALK OF RENUNCIATION. (Renouncing all 
that would distract us from a right relationship with God, all that would 
not have others best interests at heart and all that would have us settle 
for less than the best for ourselves.
  A.Distractions from God:
  Romans 8:1,4 walk not after the flesh
  2 Corinthians 5:7  (For we walk ...not by sight:)
  Philippians 3:18  (For many walk, ...they are the enemies of the 
cross of  Christ:

  B.Things which do not have others best interests at heart:
 Romans 13:13  Let us walk ...not in rioting and drunkenness, not in 
chambering and wantonness,
 not in strife and envying.
 1 Corinthians 3:3  as there is among you envying, and strife, and 
divisions, are ye not carnal, and
   walk as men?
  2 Corinthians 4:2  But have renounced the hidden things of 
dishonesty, not walking in craftiness,
 nor handling the word of God deceitfully
 2 Thessalonians 3:11  walk disorderly, working not at all, but are 
busybodies.
  2 Peter 2:10   walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and 
despise government.
 Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak 
evil of dignities.

 C.Settling for less than the best for ourselves:
   Ephesians 4:17   walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of 
their mind,
   Ephesians 5:15   walk ...not as fools,
   2 Peter 3:3  there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking 
after  their own lusts,
   1 John 1:6   walk in darkness,
   Jude 1:16  These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own 
lusts; and their mouth
speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration 
because of advantage.
Jude 1:18  walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Revelation 16:15  Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his 
garments, lest he walk naked,
and they see his shame.

A favourite quote about the life of faith is as follows, I don't even know 
whop said it:

So on I go not knowing, I would not if I might,
I'd rather walk in the dark with Him that walk alone in the light.
I'd rather walk by faith with Him than walk alone by sight.
Your brother

Re: [TruthTalk] Ten Commandments Support

2003-09-28 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Marlin,

I had written:.According to Ex.31:13-17 the Sabbath was a sign between
God and the children of Israel.

To which you responded:No. Read the command again. the word for means
because. It was given to man long before there ever was an Israel. It is
part of creation itself.So says the command.

Dear brother, this command is given specificly to Israel. (Ex.31:13,16 and
17)

No such command was ever given to man (the race) at or after creation! It
is simply stated that on the 7th day God rested. Gen.2:2 No observance of
the 7th day by any man is ever recorded in scripture until God commanded
Israel and Israel alone to keep it as a day of rest as a sign between them
and God.

You continued:The other part of the command, about working the SIX days, is
also part of creation. There are more work days to observe than there are
rest days.

Again, brother, no such command was ever given by God to any man until
Israel and Israel alone was commanded to work 6 days and rest the 7th.

You also wrote:It is impossible to keep the weekly sabbath everyday, as
some suppose, in order to justify sun-day worship. This would destroy God's
whole creation of a seven day week. When would anybody work?

I do not in any way support or propagate sun-day worship! Observance of
days is all part of a system that is to be foreign to new covenant saints!
See Col.2:16,17

If God intended that one day was to be observed by new covenant saints in a
particular way that was distinct from all the rest, Paul could never have
written Romans 14:5 and 6 under the inspiration of the Spirit of God!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Ten Commandments Support

2003-09-27 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Slade,
In response to my post you wrote:I have merely attempted to reconcile the
verses you quoted and the concept of There is neither Jew nor Gentile...
male nor female...

But brother, claiming that Gentiles cease to be Gentiles at conversion, that
Gentile converts are grafted into Israel and that ONLY Gentile unbelievers
are dogs are all faulty conclusions which do not reconcile anything.

Galatians 3:28 does NOT teach that, upon conversion, Jews cease to be Jews,
Greeks cease to be Greeks, bondmen cease to be bondmen, free men cease to
be free men, nor that males cease to be males or that females cease to be
females!

New covenant scriptures clearly teach that regenerate Jews have
responsibilities that are different from those of regenerate Greeks, that
regenerate bondmen have different responsibilities from those of regenerate
free men and that regenerate males have different responsibilities than
regenerate females. (There are distinct commands given to each of these
groups which are not required of the others.)

The point of the passage in Gal.3 is that none of these are any longer
under the schoolmaster (the law), but that by faith in Christ they are all
children of God and they are all one in Christ. Therefore in Christ,
there is no longer any barrier that hinders communion, communication or
mutual ministry between these groups because they are all members in the
same body.

Rather than making assumptions which are never stated in scripture, seeming
contradictions between various scriptural truths can usually be reconciled
by paying careful attention to what scripture actually SAYS.

I trust these thoughts may be helpful to overcome such perceived
difficulties.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Ten Commandments Support

2003-09-26 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Slade,
You wrote:Read Matthew 15:21-28. Ask yourself: who are the dogs? If you 
answer GENTILES, you are correct. Now read Revelation 22:14-15. Ask 
yourself: who are the dogs? If you answer GENTILES, you are correct.

I do not disgaree with you to be disagreeable, but I must disagree with you 
on both counts! In Matthew 15 the Lord Jesus was NOT saying that the 
children were Israelites and the dogs were Gentiles!  Neither does Rev.22 
teach that no Gentiles will enter through the gates into the great city, the 
holy Jerusalem!!  In fact many Isrealites after the flesh will be without 
and many Gentiles will be within the holy city!

The whole point of the Lord Jesus' conversation with the Canaanite woman was 
to determine whether or not she had faith. He concluded that indeed she had 
great faith!  Both dogs and swine (Matt.7:6) are unclean animals. When the 
terms are applied to people, they designate those who are unlean, i.e. have 
not been sanctified. Hebrews 6:11 declares that without faith it is 
impossible to please God.  So both of your Matt.15 and Rev.22 passages are 
clearly distinguishing between believers and unbelievers NOT between 
Israelites and Gentiles!!!  See parallel passages to Rev.22:14 and 15 in  
Rev.21:8 and  Rev.21:24-27 (note that the word for nations in 21:24 and 26 
is the very same Greek word as Gentiles!)

When I wrote:Do you believe that all Gentile believers should keep the Ten 
Commandments which were given specificly to the nation of Israel? Ex.20...
You responded:The term Gentile Believer is an oxymoron. They do not 
exist.

Brother, as I understand scripture, it does not support the idea that 
Gentiles cease to be Gentiles when they get saved. Rather it clearly teaches 
that those who were Gentiles before conversion remain Gentiles after 
conversion. See the following scriptural statements:
Acts 15:23  And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles 
and elders and brethren send greeting unto ***the brethren which are of the 
Gentiles*** in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
Acts 21:25  As touching ***the Gentiles which believe***, we have written 
and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep 
themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, 
and from fornication.
To the brethren at Rome who were Gentiles, Paul wrote in Romans 1:13  Now I 
would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come 
unto you, (but was let hitherto,) ***that I might have some fruit among you 
also, even as among other Gentiles.***
Romans 3:29  Is he the God of the Jews only?*** is he not also of the 
Gentiles ? Yes, of the Gentiles also:***
Romans 9:24  Even us, whom he hath called, ***not of the Jews only, but also 
of the Gentiles ***?
Romans 9:30  What shall we say then?*** That the Gentiles, which followed 
not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the 
righteousness which is of faith.***
Romans 11:11  I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God 
forbid: but rather through their fall ***salvation is come unto the 
Gentiles,***  for to provoke them to jealousy.
Romans 11:12  Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the 
diminishing of them ***the riches of the Gentiles***; how much more their 
fulness?
Romans 11:13 *** For I speak to you Gentiles,  inasmuch as I am the apostle 
of the Gentiles , I magnify mine office***:
Romans 11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this 
mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part 
is happened to Israel, ***until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.***
Romans 15:9  And ***that the Gentiles  might glorify God for his mercy***; 
as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles , 
and sing unto thy name.
Romans 15:10  And again he saith, ***Rejoice, ye Gentiles***, with his 
people.
Romans 15:11  And again, ***Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, 
all ye people.***
Romans 15:12  And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and 
he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles ;*** in him shall the Gentiles 
 trust.***
Romans 15:16  That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, 
 ministering the gospel of God, ***that the offering up of the Gentiles 
might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.***
Romans 15:27  It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. 
***For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, 
their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things.***
Romans 16:4  Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not 
only I give thanks, but also ***all the churches of the Gentiles.***
Galatians 2:12  For before that certain came from James, ***he did eat with 
the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, 
fearing them which were of the circumcision.***
Galatians 2:14  But when I saw that they walked

Re: [TruthTalk] Ten Commandments Support

2003-09-23 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Slade,

I'm just curious. Are you a Jew?

Do you believe that all Gentile believers should keep the Ten Commandments 
which were given specificly to the nation of Israel? Ex.20

Particularly, do you believe it is God's intention for all Christians to 
keep the 7th day sabbath?

It was given to Israel forever as a sign between them and God. (Ex.31:13-17) 
 If Gentiles kept the sabbath how could it be a sign for Israel??  (i.e.  
Stop signs have their purpose in specific locations such as busy 
intersections. But if everyone erected a stop sign at the end of their 
driveways, soon all stop signs would be ignored, even the ones at the 
intersections!)

Do you keep all the scriptural regulations of the sabbath?

I am convinced that God gave three physical practices that are to be 
observed by Israelites forever to clearly distinguish them from other 
nations: (1)Circumcision, Gen.17, (2)The Passover Ex.12 and (3) The seventh 
day sabbath. Ex.31.

So too God has given Christians 3 physical practices that are to mark them 
out as God's new covenant people: (1)Baptism in water Matt.28:18-20, (2)The 
Lord's Supper Luke 22:19,20 and (3) The demonstration of Christ's headship 
by men uncovering their heads and women covering theirs while praying and 
prophesying and by men keeping their hair from growing long and women 
allowing theirs to grow long. I Cor.11:1-16

Each of these three practices has two parts:
(1)Baptism demonstrates that we are the DEAD and the LIVING by immersion in 
and emergence from water.
(2)The Lord's Supper reminds us of the work of Christ at Calvary by 
partaking of the BREAD and the CUP.
(3)Just as God has crowned the Lord Jesus with glory and honour, so too what 
I do with my HEAD and my HAIR  ought to bring glory and honour to Christ my 
Head.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

From: Slade Henson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Ten Commandments Support
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:25:47 -0400
David...

I am a follower and supporter of not only the 10 commandments of Ex20 but
also the other 593 found throughout the Torah [that apply to me as a 
married
man with children who works]. According to Scripture, these should be
written on our hearts if we are seeking YHVH with all our hearts. That is
the way to save the TEN.

shalom
slade
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Original Message -
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 22 September, 2003 16:10
Subject: [TruthTalk] Ten Commandments Support
 If you are interested in signing a petition for supporting the Ten
 Commandments, click the following link:

 Click here to become part of this five-state Save the Ten Commandments
 Caravan:
 http://www.grassfire.net/37/petition.asp?PID=4565278

 Grassfire.net is taking the Ten Commandments battle from Montgomery,
 Alabama to Washington, D.C., and we want you to be a part of our
 virtual caravan!

 HELP US TAKE THE MESSAGE TO AMERICA

 Grassfire.net is sponsoring a five state Save the Ten Commandments
 Caravan urging the Supreme Court to reverse the lower court ruling
 banning the Ten Commandments from public display.

 This historic caravan which includes a spectacular lighted, mobile
 billboard of the Ten Commandments--as well as a full-scale replica of
 the Montgomery monument created by the original artist especially for
 this caravan, will conclude at the steps of the Supreme Court--the
 evening before its Fall session begins!

 Peace be with you.
 David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
--
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RE: [TruthTalk] Ethics question

2003-09-19 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,

You asked:what if the wife had a Living Will in which she had written
that she did not want to be kept alive by artificial means if she was
comatose?

I think artificial means would have to be defined more specificly. Feeding
a person, bathing them, keeping them warm or cool, giving them water are
artificial means! Would you really want to withhold such basic needs from
one who was unable to do these things for themselves? Many people who are
conscious and aware of their surroundings cannot do these things for
themselves! Why should being comatose be a reason to withhold such basic
care for the helpless?

You asked:Would you then think it was right to keep her alive by feeding
tube?

I would certainly not think that one whose body carries on functions
necessary for life should be denied food or water!

If someone cannot breathe on their own, and keeping them alive is dependent
on a machine to breathe for them, I would call that artificial means and I
personally would not want my family to go through the process of keeping me
alive by such a means.

You asked:What if the wife was young, and had not yet written a living
will, but had communicated verbally to her husband the same desire? Should
he not obey her wishes?

If I was the husband of one who had expressed such a desire, I would ask a
lot more questions such as , What do YOU mean by artificial means? Any
human assistance whatsoever? OR Normal body functions which no longer
function and can only be performed by machines?

You asked:How do you know that the person's soul has not already gone on to
be with the Lord when they are comatose for a long time?

Izzy, I don't. But I could also ask you, How could you be sure that the
person's soul HAD DEPARTED, simply because they were comatose for a long
time?

You asked:You stated that you do not believe one should be kept alive by
artificial means forever. So how long do you think they should be?

Izzy, when I think of artificial means used to keep a comatose person
alive I think of necessary bodily functions that can only be done by
machines. (i.e. there is not sufficient brain activity so a person cannot
breathe on their own, their heart will not beat on it's own, etc). How long
such should be continued would be up to the next of kin.

My daughter was on a missions trip to Ecuador this summer, 4 hours from
civilization by canoe and another 6 hours by bus from a hospital! She was
comatose for a number of hours, almost quit breathing a number of times and
was running an extremely high temperature. She was kept alive by artificial
means and a lot of prayer by her co-workers!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Ethics question

2003-09-18 Thread Bruce Woodford

Izzy,
You asked:...do you think the Lord requires someone in such a situation to 
remain married to a person in a vegetative state for years?

Matthew 19:6 says: Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What 
therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Mark 10:11,12 says: And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his 
wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.  And if a woman 
shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth 
adultery.

Romans 7:2,3 says: For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law 
to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is 
loosed from the law of her husband.
3  So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she 
shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from 
that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another 
man.

I Cor.7:10,11 says:And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, 
Let not the wife depart from her husband:  But and if she depart, let her 
remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband 
put away his wife.

I Cor.10:13 says:There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common 
to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above 
that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, 
that ye may be able to bear it.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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RE: [TruthTalk] A Good Read/Taxes

2003-09-18 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi David,

You wrote:In regard to defining person, our U.S. Code provides the 
following definition:

U.S. Code, Title 26, Subtitle F, Chapter 79, Section 7701
(30) United States person
The term ''United States person'' means -
(A) a citizen or resident of the United States,
(B) a domestic partnership,
(C) a domestic corporation,
(D) any estate (other than a foreign estate, within the meaning of
paragraph (31)), and
(E) any trust if -
(i) a court within the United States is able to exercise primary supervision 
over the administration of the trust, and
(ii) one or more United States persons have the authority to control all 
substantial decisions of the trust.

I am a citizen and resident of the United States, so I fall under this 
definition.

Yes, David, you are, and for you (as a citizen and resident not to pay 
income tax would be to be guilty of tax evasion.  But I am NOT a citizen or 
a resident of CANADA, although I was born and live within the geographical 
landmass called Canada.  You see both citizens and residents are legal 
persons created by government starting with birth registrations. Legal 
persons are THINGS to which the law gives a legal or fictional existence or 
personality, with capacity for rights or duties.

As a man, you are RECOGNIZED  by God-given features of your spirit, soul and 
body and you may be INTRODUCED to others who do not know you by men or women 
who do.  But as a legal person citizen or resident, you cannot be 
introduced. (You do not introduce THINGS!)  Things must be IDENTIFIED. So 
whenever someone wants to IDENTIFY  you as a citizen or resident, an 
introduction by a family member or friend will not do! Nor will the 
God-given features of your spirit, soul and body suffice. Things must be 
identified by features given them by their creator. The features given to 
legal persons by government are a legal name, a legal number and a legal 
document. Such documents are necessary to IDENTIFY citizens and 
residents.

When I had written:In Canadian legislation, when real flesh and blood 
people are referred to, such terms as man, woman, one, everyone etc 
are used.  But when corporations, legal persons, companies, trusts, 
organizations are refferred to, the terms person or persons are 
used!.

You responded:...Listen to yourself, Bruce.  Are you really trying to argue 
that you are not a person?  Don't you think something is wrong that you 
build such an argument, that you are not a person, in order to avoid paying 
taxes?

Dear David, In normal conversation, I do not mind the use of the word 
person because most people use the word and mean a man, woman, boy or girl 
who has been created by God. But when governments and lawyers use the term, 
they mean something totally different!  The trouble with legalese is that 
legal language is designed to deceive and confuse the ordinary man on the 
street in order to bring him into bondage.  That is why the Income Tax Act 
(Canada) and your U.S. Tax Code are unintelligible to most people!  They 
(and most other legislation) were not written to be understood by the man on 
the street, they were written primarily to deceive him and bring him into 
bondage and under the regulation of those who hate the Creator and desire to 
be creators themselves who can then regulate and enslave their creatures 
(otherwise known as citizens, residents etc).

There are many people who have been born and who live in the geographical 
territory called the United States of America who are NOT U.S. citizens , 
who are not U.S. residents and therefore are not United States persons! 
Some examples:
-ambassadors and foreign diplomats and their families,
-Amish and Mennonite people who refuse government birth registrations, or 
the use of any government I.D.
-Children of ordinary folks which are born at home and whose parents do not 
register their births with government.
-People who formerly used government I.D., but have learned how deceptive 
such 'I.D. really is and have revoked and renounced the use of all such 
I.D.

You wrote:The IRS has published a document titled, The Truth About 
Frivolous Tax Arguments.  It covers the voluntary tax argument as well as 
other schemes, and it documents case law and court rulings concerning it. 
Perhaps you should read it and offer a response for us.

I read the section on voluntary tax arguments. It is very similar to 
publications of the CCRA here in Canada. David, did you notice that this 
documents deals with legal persons designated as taxpayers?
In the Code to which it refers (dealing with Income Tax) taxpayers are 
payers of income tax.

One  who is quite happy to be a legal person (deriving their legal or 
fictional existence and personailty FROM THE LAW), uses legal I.D. and 
claims that the person IDENTIFIED on such documents is actually 
himself/herself,  does not have any power (as a legal person) to think, 
reason, or question, nor do they have the power of volition! The creators of 
legal

RE: [TruthTalk] Ethics question

2003-09-18 Thread Bruce Woodford

Izzy,
You wrote:Okay, Bruce, we all know the pat, standard, rote, expected,
programmed answers. I was hoping for a little thought on this subject.

What if someone in a vegetative coma state is already with the Lord? Do you
think the Lord expects to keep their body alive by artificial means forever?
What if it was a young woman who desired children, and now can never have
them, or experience the joy of a marriage? Does anything ever compel you to
get inside someone else's frame of mind? As long as the vegetative person
was well cared for, would God be so rigid and unfeeling that he would want
the spouse to never be able to have a life? Does your God come in a
pre-programmed box? .Nevermind. Izzy

PS In case you think that I would be so callous as to remove the feeding
tube from someone, let me remind you that I was married to someone in a very
vegetative state for 25 years! Thank the Lord, He had mercy on my situation!
ROFL!!!

Dear Sister, Please forgive me for communicating that I'd given your
question no thought! I certainly did, but you asked what God would require,
and so I thought it best not to express opinions but to the the Holy Spirit
of God speak to the situation through His own Word.

But now you have asked some other questions:
-What if someone in a vegetative coma state is already with the Lord?
If one has departed, if the soul and spirit are separated from the body, the
body is dead. There is no more need to care for such. Bury the body and the
one who was formerly married to the departed one is free to marry another.
Romans 7 is clear on that score.

-Do you think the Lord expects to keep their body alive by artificial means
forever?

No I do not.

-What if it was a young woman who desired children, and now can never have
them, or experience the joy of a marriage?

It is never God's desire that a young married woman whose husband is
physically or mentally incapacitated should bear children by any other man
while her husband is still living. Rather, in the midst of her deep trial,
it IS his purpose to make Himself known to her in all of His sufficiency for
her every need.

-Does anything ever compel you to get inside someone else's frame of mind?

Yes, when people share what is on their mind, I am often compelled to
consider their perspective. Thank you for doing just that here!

-As long as the vegetative person was well cared for, would God be so rigid
and unfeeling that he would want the spouse to never be able to have a
life?

Dear Sister, If the incapacitated spouse is in need of being well cared for,
they are still a spouse and their spouse is still married. God is never
rigid and unfeeling!! The Lord Jesus was tempted in all pointas like as we
are apart from sin and in that he himself suffered bneing tempted, He is
able to succour (help) them that are tempted.But LIFE is never to be
found in a spouse, in a happy marriage, in bearing children etc. If anyone
enters a marriage relationship thinking that LIFE is found there, they are
going to be sorely disillusioned! BUT, if they realize that LIFE is only
found in Christ (I John 5:11,12), then regardless of their circumstances,
good relationships or bad, smooth sailing or daily pain and
aggravation...they can still experience a full, joyful and meaningful life
by maintaining coomunion with and drawing their sustenance from their Lord!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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RE: [TruthTalk] Carnality

2003-09-16 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear David,

When I wrote: The word translated deny is found 13 times in scripture  
from Matthew 16:24 to John 13:38 but is never mentioned  again AFTER the 
crucifixion of Christ!...

You responded: I'm not sure what you are trying to say, Bruce. First, the 
word is mentioned after the crucifixion in the following verse: For the 
grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us 
that, DENYING ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, 
righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed 
hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus 
Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, 
and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These 
things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise 
thee. (Titus 2:11-15 KJV) But even if it was not, don't you think that the 
doctrine of Christ can be found in the gospels? What are you trying to say? 
What are you trying to argue? What's the bottom line? Do you disagree with 
the teaching that we are to deny self, meaning, deny worldly lusts of the 
flesh?

David these are good questions! Let me start with answering the last one 
first and maybe that will help you to see where i'm coming from.

Yes, brother, I do disagree! Denying self and denying ungodliness and 
worldly lusts are not synonymous.
DENYING SELF was for those contemporaries of the Lord Jesus during his 
earthly ministry who were dealing with self  life on the way to crucifixion, 
prior to death. Our DENYING UNGODLINESS AND WORLDLY LUSTS is dealing with 
defilement and corruption after death has taken place! (Our death to sin and 
the the law took place in Christ at Calvary!)

The word denying in Titus 2 is Strong's # 720 ARNEOMAI. But the word 
deny in the Gospels is Strong's #533 APARNEOMAI. The latter is the 
strengthened form of the former. The former is used primarily of 
contradicting by word. But the latter was used primarily of rejecting 
people, especially one's self as one was taking up their cross and following 
Christ to execution by crucifixion!  It is for this reason that I said no 
new covenant believer is called to deny themself,  take up their cross, 
crucify themselves, put themselves to death, or to die to self!  That was 
accomplished in Christ at Calvary!

But what we ARE to deny, as new covenant believers, is NOT OURSELVES, but 
ungodliness and  worldy lusts.  We have already died, having been 
crucified with Christ. (Gal.2:20) That can never be repeated, nor is it an 
ongoing process.  But what is to be an ongoing process is the denial of 
ungodliness and worldly lusts (Titus 2)  This is in complete harmony with 
Col.3:3 and 5.  We ARE DEAD. (v.3)

We cannot continue to put ourselves to death!  But what we are commanded to 
do is to mortify (put to death) our members which are upon the earth: 
fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence and 
covetousness, which is idolatry. (v.5)

These truths are also set forth in Romans 6.(Below).  Notice that the 
statements which I have started at the left hand are truths that took place 
at Calvary, they are what God has accomplished.  The statements which are 
set further to the right are those which are ongoing responsibilities of 
believers. Another way to consider these are that those on the left have to 
do with our crucifixion with Christ and death to sin and to the law. Those 
further to the right have to do with our denying ungodliness and worldly 
lusts

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin 
might be destroyed,
  -that henceforth we should 
not serve sin.
7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with 
him:
9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath 
no more dominion over him.
10  For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he 
liveth unto God.
11   -Likewise reckon ye also 
yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but
   alive unto God through Jesus 
Christ our Lord.
12   -Let not sin therefore reign in 
your mortal body, that ye should obey
it in the lusts thereof.
13   -Neither yield ye your members 
as instruments of unrighteousness
   unto sin: but yield 
yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from
the dead, and your members 
as instruments of righteousness unto
 God.
14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, 
but under grace.
15

Re: [TruthTalk] Carnality

2003-09-16 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Terry,

You wrote:As I said before, by choosing your verses carefully, you paint a 
picture that sounds good, even scriptural, but the Holy Spirit keeps 
whispering in my ear that what you are telling me is wrong, so let me 
quibble with you a bit.

1. I went back and looked up every reference to reprobate and reprobates, 
and to me, they sound an awful lot like what you are calling carnal 
Christians. I am not arguing that there are no carnal Christians. Only that 
they must be babes in Christ who are ignorant of what our Lord expects of 
His followers.

(I (almost) agree with you that carnal believers are babes in Christ, but 
not quite! Paul did not say that the carnal Corinthians WERE babes in 
Christ, but rather that he had to speak unto them AS UNTO BABES IN CHRIST!

They were NOT new believers, but they were bahaving AS BABES IN CHRIST!
Nor do I believe that the Corinthian believers were ignorant of what the 
Lord expected of them. Paul had spent more time instructing the Corinthian 
saints (18 months), than he had spent in almost any other place!)

2. I am not adding to God's word. I am simply trying to understand it. He 
knows my heart and He knows I am searching, not modifying.

(Brother, I cannot judge motives of the heart. I simply ask, what scriptures 
have lead you to believe that the carnal believers at Corinth were actually 
babes in Christ and ignorant of what the Lord expected of them?)

3.In Matthew 6:24, Jesus does not say This part is only for twelve men. He 
says it is for ANY man that wants to follow Him. This message was for every 
person who reads the words, those you call the multitudes.

(Terry, I agree with you that it WAS for any man who was a contemporary of 
Christ prior to His crucifixion. None of them had died to sin or died to the 
law, as we (believers have in Christ). As I mentioned before, one who took 
up his cross was one who had NOT YET BEEN CRUCIFIED, but rather was making 
his way toward death with the instrument of execution upon him.  Can you 
explain exactly how a new covenant believer can take up his cross?  What 
would it be? How would his crucifixion result by it?)

4. If Jesus Christ is your Savior, He is your Lord, your God. He is not a 
magic lamp that you put on a shelf and ignore until needed. If you do not 
take up your cross, deny yourself, and follow Him, there is a very real 
question as to whether or not you even have faith.

(Dear brother, I never expressed nor do I believe that Christ is a magic 
lamp that one can put on a shelf and ignore  until needed!  But I DO 
believe, as Paul wrote in Romans 6:16, that believers do make choices, from 
day to day and even minute to minute, as to whom they will serve. Know ye 
not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are 
to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto 
righteousness?

It was these same believers at Corinth who were making choices to serve the 
wrong master as they involved themselves in strife, division and 
denominationalism (ch.1),glorying in gross sin, (ch.5), going to law with 
one another (ch.6), abusing the Lord's supper (ch.11), abusing spiritual 
gifts (ch.14) etc.

I do not claim that such behaviour is NORMAL Christian living! Paul sternly 
rebuked them on every count! I am simply saying that when believers get 
their eyes off of Christ, they can and do make many wrong choices. One does 
not have to be a new believer to make horrendously wrong choices as a 
Christian!!)

5. Jesus has said,I will never leave or forsake you. You can take that to 
the bank. But Jesus has never said that you cannot forsake Him. He is able 
to keep us, but He will not force us to stay.
(Brother, The Lord Jesus clearly declared two things (among many others) 
concerning  His sheep:
(1) I know them... John 10:27.  Now if it is possible for one of His sheep 
to forsake Christ and in the end be lost, Christ could NEVER say to such a 
former sheep, I NEVER KNEW YOU!  But these are the exact words that He 
will speak to the lost! See Matthew 7:23
(2) I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish neither shall 
ANY MAN PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND. My Father, which gave them me, is greater 
than all; and NO MAN IS ABLE TO PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY FATHER'S HAND.  John 
10:28,29  Since any man includes you and me and no man excludes us both, 
neither one of us has the power even to pluck ourselves out of the hand of 
Christ, or out of the hand of the Father!)

6. The very fact that they did not RETAIN God would indicate to me that 
reprobates were once people who professed to believe. Like John says, They 
went out from us because they were not of us. They talked the talk., but 
they did not endure. What I guess I am saying is the easy salvation you are 
teaching is something I just cannot swallow. It sticks about half way down, 
and it tastes more like the wide road than the narrow path. I think I will 
continue to work out my own salvation with fear and

Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!

2003-09-15 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Judy,

When I wrote:Pressing on does not deny the facts that one is indeed dead 
to sin and dead to the law! Pressing on realizes that there is indeed 
victory already provided to the child of God through the person and work of 
the Lord Jesus Christ!...

You wrote: The fact is that we are to reckon ourselves dead to sin which 
is something we actively do on a daily basis. Sin can arise in a heartbeat 
and often it does We must learn to walk in the fear of God and love 
perfectly because our enemies are trying to stir up our old flesh 
constantly.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that we are to reckon ourselves to be dead 
indeed unto sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 
6:11) But the only way one can reckon anything to be true is to KNOW that it 
is actually a fact!  If we were told to reckon ourselves to be dead unto sin 
and such was not an accomplished fact, scripture would be telling us to 
deceive ourselves into reckoning something which was not true!  Our 
reckoning does not bring our death about! Our reckoning does not put the 
old man to death. Our reckoning does not cause us to live as though 
something had happened which actually did not!

You had written:IMO these doctrines deny reality and are dangerous. ...

To which I responded:I think (you can correct me if I have read you wrong) 
that the doctrines to which you refer are the ones of which I spoke, namely 
that believers are dead to sin and dead to the law.

You answered: Depends how you are stating this Bruce; it is hardly an 
accomplished past tense fact, it is true only as we discern evil and choose 
righteousness in our daily walk with Him; and this is a walk of repentance. 
If/when we sin the law is there to judge us.

Dear Sister, As I read the scripture verses that speak about being dead unto 
sin, not one of them indicates that this is true only as we discern evil 
and choose righteousness in our daily walk with Him!
Romans 6:2  God forbid. How shall we, that are DEAD TO SIN, live any longer 
therein?
Romans 6:10  For in that he died, he DIED UNTO SIN once: but in that he 
liveth, he liveth unto God.
Romans 6:11  Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be DEAD INDEED UNTO SIN, 
but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rather, Christ died unto sin once (on the cross).  WE are dead to sin 
because we are in Him so that when he died, we died! Because that is an 
accomplished fact of history, our present reckoning is solidly based on 
hiostorical fact!

I would very frankly challenge your statement, If/when we sin the law is 
there to judge us.   Can you present even one clear statement of scripture 
that indicates that,  when a believer sins, the law is there to judge them?

By way of contrast to your claim, I John 2:1 says:My little children, these 
things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an 
advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Also I Cor.1:30 states: But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is 
made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

And I Tim.1:8-11 says: But we know that the law is good, if a man use it 
lawfully;9  Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but 
for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy 
and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for 
manslayers,10  For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with 
mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be 
any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;11  According to the 
glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

The reason why the law has no joinder with us, is because we have become 
dead to the law by the body of Christ! (Romans 7:4 and Gal.2:19) He it was 
who blotted out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us and took 
it out of the way, nailing it to his cross!This too is an historical fact 
that took place at Calvary!
Colossians 2:13-15
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, 
hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;14  
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was 
contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;15  And 
having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, 
triumphing over them in it.

With these scriptures in mind, sister, could I ask you a few questions?
-Is the statement of Romans 7:4 true of you?Wherefore, my brethren, ye also 
are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye  should be married 
to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring 
forth fruit unto God.

-Is the statement of  Galatians 2:19 true of you? For I through the law am 
dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

-How many of your trespasses did Christ forgive? Col.2:13

-How many of your trespasses were future when He died in

Re: [TruthTalk] Carnality

2003-09-15 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Terry,

You wrote:Thank you Bruce. I appreciate your effort. There are questions
that remain, but maybe only the Lord has the answer. Like, how long can a
Christian remain carnal?

As long as he or she does not respond to the chastening of the Lord.
(Heb.12:5-11)
As long as God allows them to live. Many believers at Corinth were sick and
many slept (died) because they would not judge sin in their lives. (I
Cor.11:30-32) If we will not judge, God will! This word slept is never
ever used in scripture of the death of unbelievers, but only of the death of
saints.

You asked: Why would a Christian want to be carnal?

Because they love the flesh and they love the world. Brother, it is possible
for saved people to do so! James wrote to his brethren in Christ (James 1:2;
2:1,14) but called many of them adulterers and adulteresses because they
were friends with the world and not with God! James chapter 4 deals with
this very problem. So does I John 2.

You asked: If the carnal Christian can only be identified as a Christian by
his or her statement of faith, and is otherwise no different than the lost
person, why did Jesus say, you are mine IF you keep my commandments?
Three things here:
(1)We are not called to determine who is NOT a Christian. The Lord knows
them that are His and let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart
from iniquity. (II Tim.2:19) But, on the other hand, no one has any right to
expect others to believe that they are saved if they do not live like it!
But one is certainly to examine himself to see if he is in the faith!
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove
your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in
you, except ye be reprobates?

(2)If there has been no works of righteousness, there is no faith and one is
not saved. James 2:17-20

(3)Unless we are sure what scripture actually SAYS, we may be deceived! The
Lord Jesus NEVER said, you are mine IF you keep my commandments!

Keeping His commandments is not the proof of salvation, but rather the proof
that one loves Christ! (As we have seen above, it is possible for a believer
to love the world, but he cannot love the world and the Father at the same
time!)
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Keeping His commandments is not the way that one knows they BELONG TO
Christ, but it is the way that one may know that they KNOW Christ.
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his
commandments.

Keeping His commandments is not the acid test of salvation, but it is the
acid test of whether one LOVES THE CHILDREN OF GOD!
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love
God, and keep his commandments.

Finally, you asked:If his or her works are burned up and he or she has no
works, how can they have faith without works?

At first sight, I Cor.3:15 and James 2:17and 20 SEEM to present a
contradiction. But look carefully, James 2 has to do with one who has NO
WORKS and therefore NO FAITH. But the one in I Cor.3:13-15 is NOT WITHOUT
WORKS, rather, his work is work of the WRONG SORT! Possibly work which was
done sacrificially, but for wrong motives etc.

Trust these thoughts may be a help along the way.
Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] A Good Read/Taxes

2003-09-15 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Judy,

You wrote:... many years ago I made a special trip to Memphis with our 
firstborn on a Greyhound Bus to apply for and receive a green card and SSN. 
Are you now telling me that I've been had and it would have been wiser for 
me to live as an 'illegal alien?'

You got a SSN for the same reason as I did when I was a Bible Institute 
student in the United States. We both were lead to believe that it was 
required by law!  But we were both deceived by bureaucrats!  As I mentioned 
before, many Amish and Mennonites have come to Canada and the States who 
refuse such numbers but are granted landed immigrant status or whatever. Had 
you and I known that fact at the time, we could have also refused such 
numbers because they are NOT REQUIRED!  They ARE required if you wish SOCIAL 
SECURITY BENEFITS, but no one is required by law to claim such benefits!  
But now that we know the truth (i.e. that such numbers and claiming such 
benefits are not legal obligations for any) we can, and I have renounced and 
revoked such numbers and benefits. You can too, if you so desire.

You asked:What about obedience to Government as those who God has placed in 
authority over us? (Romans 13:1-4)

Judy, if you were to renounce your SSN and benefits and also your status as 
an Income Tax payer, there is not a law of the United States government that 
you would be disobeying!  Both are voluntary actions, so choosing not to 
volunteer is not disobedience! It is simply exercising your right to choose!

You wrote:Our family was with the USN for 20yrs where the SSN is 
everything. Wives must use the last four digits of their husband's SSN for 
Medical care and anything else the family needs (from the Navy that is) and 
believe it or not - God used an isolated US Navy Base to draw me back to 
Christ through the witness of godly military families.

In the past, I too have depended on a government health insurance plan. But 
the very same day that I learned the facts that I was, in fact, contributing 
to a plan that funded all abortions done in Ontario hospitals, I resigned my 
employment which required that I be enrolled in the Ontario Health Insurance 
Plan.  It was Proverbs 1:10-19 that God used to convict me. Once I knew the 
facts, I could no longer bear moral responibility for contributing to fund ( 
a common purse from which I hoped also to draw in time of need) which was 
used to fund the murders of thousands of little babies every year!

At the time, we had 5 children to feed and clothe, I had no other prospects 
of work, we had absolutely no savings and our Christian friends thought I 
had totally lost it!  We had purposed long before that we would not make 
our needs known to any but God. But during the course of the next 12 months, 
as I started a small business and my wife did some babysitting of other 
children, we cleared the grand sum of just $8000 between us!  That does not 
go very far for a family of 7!!  But that year we ate better than we had 
ever eaten before, our kids were healthier than they'd ever been before, all 
of our bills were paid before they were due and on a number of occasions 
when we had to go to the doctor or to emergency at the hospital,  God 
always provided BEFOREHAND so that we had the cash on hand to pay the bill 
before we walked out the door!  The needs that we had that exceeded our 
ability to provide for were largely provided by checks which came in the 
mail from a brother many miles away who barely knew us. He always misspelled 
my name on the checks he sent! He started sending $50 checks and then they 
increased to $100 checks and I lost track of how many we received that 
winter when business was so slow!

But when spring came and the business picked up, the checks stopped!  About 
3 years later at a Bible conference, I met the man who had sent those 
checks. I was really curious, so I asked him if 3 years earlier he had known 
anything about our situation?  He replied that he had known absolutely 
nothing except that God had told him to send us that money! When I explained 
to him why we were in need, and how God had abundantly met our need through 
him, he just shook his head and said, I didn't know anything!  It was a 
tremendous encouragement to both of us that God had been at work!!!
I share this to simply bear testimony to the faithfulness of God when His 
people obey what he tells them to do and rely on Him intsead of on the 
perverse schemes of ungodly men.  His promise still stands good today: For 
the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew 
himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him.  II 
Chron.16:9 (A perfect heart is NOT a sinless, or faultless heart! It is 
simply the heart of one who knows their need and relies on their God to meet 
that need.)

You wrote:Jesus also healed a Roman Centurian's son and chose Paul a Roman 
citizen to write most of the NT; this Paul actually wrote: 'He who was 
called in the

RE: [TruthTalk] Carnality

2003-09-15 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Terry,

In response to my last post, you wrote:Sounds good and sounds scriptural, 
but I do not believe it. Jesus said, deny self, follow me. Carnal people are 
not doing that. Jesus said , Why do you call Me Lord when you do not do as I 
tell you to do? He is not the Lord of people whose life reflects a long time 
pattern of disobedience. There is some point known only to God when He turns 
them over to a reprobate mind and writes them off. I cannot prove that with 
one verse or ten verses, but the entire word of God adds up to that.

Brother, I am thoroughly convinced that:
-The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of 
earth, purified seven times. Psalm 12:6
- Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust 
in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found 
a liar. Proverbs 30:5,6
- Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is 
of  God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom  teacheth, 
but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with 
spiritual.  I Corinthians 2:12,13

So let us consider what you have said in light of what the very words of 
scripture SAY:
Yes, in Matthew 16:24   Jesus said unto his disciples, If any man will come 
after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Brother, notice a number of things about this text:
-TO WHOM it was spoken: It was spoken to his disciples, NOT to the 
multitudes!

-WHAT was spoken: If any man will come after me...  NOT if any man will be 
saved!  The prerequisites for salvation are faith and repentance, NOT 
denying one's self, taking up one's cross, and following Christ. Those were 
the requirements for those who would come after Christ.

-WHEN these words were spoken:  They were spoken PRIOR TO CALVARY AND THE 
CRUCIFIXION.  Anyone who takes up their cross, has not yet been crucified! 
But once the Lord Jesus was crucified at Calvary (and we were crucified 
there with Him Gal.2:20) no one is ever again told to take up their cross! 
The word translated deny is found 13 times in scripture from Matthew 16:24 
to John 13:38 but is never mentioned again AFTER the crucifixion of Christ!

A new covenant believer is never instructed to deny himself. But he IS given 
many other instructions relative to himself:
Romans 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that 
is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; 
but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure 
of faith.
Romans 14:22  Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he 
that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
1 Corinthians 3:18  Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth 
to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1 Corinthians 11:28  But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of 
that bread, and drink of that cup.
1 Corinthians 11:29  For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and 
drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
Galatians 6:3  For if a man think himself to be something, when he is 
nothing, he deceiveth himself.
Galatians 6:4  But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have 
rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of 
this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.
2 Timothy 2:21  If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a 
vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared 
unto every good work.
James 1:27  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, 
To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself 
unspotted from the world.
1 John 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, 
even as he walked.
1 John 3:3  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even 
as he is pure.

What is most interesting to observe is that a believer who is living in a 
carnal (fleshly ) state is failing to be obedient to ANY  of these 
instructions relative to HIMSELF!  So I totally agree with you that those 
who are living in a carnal state are NOT BEING OBEDIENT TO CHRIST.

I also agree fully with you when you say, He is not the Lord of people 
whose life reflects a long time pattern of disobedience. But that does not 
mean that He is not the Saviour, the High priest, the Provider, or the 
Friend who will never leave nor forsake them!

But the next statement of yours, is one with which I cannot agree:  There 
is some point known only to God when He turns them (believers living in a 
carnal state) over to a reprobate mind and writes them off.

Not only is there not a verse of scripture that teaches that God ever deals 
with any of His children in this

Re: [TruthTalk] Covenant

2003-09-14 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Dave,
In response to my statement that All covenants are promises...
You wrote:I hope you don't mind me jumping into this, Bruce. May I assume
you would also say that not all promises are covenants..is that
correct?

Yes, that is correct, brother. A few months ago I was studying promises in
scripture. I found at least 4 kinds of promises in scripture:
-A PROMISE is an oral or written guarantee, pledge, or assurance.
-A COVENANT is a promise or series of promises given with a visible or
manifest token or sign. Many covenants are also made with solemn oaths
(curses).
-An OATH is a promise made by God or man on penalty of a curse.
-A VOW is a promise that is made to God by a man or woman.

So covenants are a particular kind of promise, one that is always linked
with a manifest token or sign.

I had written:In some covenants, the fulfilment of the promises of the one
party are conditional on the fulfilment of the promises of the other party.

You wrote:I was under the impression that all covenants are two-way
promises. Anything that isn't two-way would not be a covenant, but rather
simply a promise. Do you see it differently? Can you think of any Biblical
examples of a one-way covenant?

Brother, there are at least 8 or 9 divine covenants in scripture and many of
them are one way, or unconditional covenants.

(1)The first covenant found in scripture, God's covenant with every living
thing in Noah's day after the flood was such a covenant. See Genesis 9. Noah
made no promises to God.

(2)God's covenant with Abraham in Genesis 17 was also a one way covenant.
God made all the promises in connection with this covenant.

(3)So too the new covenant is composed solely of promises of God to His new
covenant people. See Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Hebrews 8:8-13

So we see that, while many covenants are two way promises, such a
characteristic is NOT a requirement that makes a promise a covenant. Rather,
covenants are distinguished from other promises by the fact that a manifest
token of the covenant is given in connection with the covenant and that
token lasts as long as the covenant itself.

The bow in the cloud is the token of the covenant with all living creatures.
Circumcision is the token of the covenant with Abraham.
The cup is the token of the new covenant.
You asked:Do you feel the new covenant is conditional, Bruce? If so, what
promises does the Lord make, and what are the conditions?

No, I do not believe the new covenant is conditional at all. The promises
which the Lord made in Jeremiah 31 are these:
(1)I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house
of Judah:
(2)I will put my law in their inward parts,
and
write it in their hearts;
and
will be their God,
and
they shall be my people.
And
they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every
man his brother, saying, Know
the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of
them unto the greatest of them,
(3)I will forgive their iniquity,
(4)I will remember their sin no more.
The promise which the Lord made in Hebrews 9:15 is
(5)The promise of eternal inheritance.

I hope this may be helpful in your on-going consideration of covenants in
scripture.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] A Good Read/Taxes

2003-09-14 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Judy,

You wrote: I understand what you are saying, have read all about the Int'l 
Monetary Fund, CFR etc The systems of this world have always been evil, 
nothing new there. Yet in His teaching Jesus tells us to give what belongs 
to Caesar back to Caesar and what belongs to God back to God. None of us 
chose this mess, we were all born into a world where these structures were 
already in place.

Dear Sister, who says that voluntary taxes belong to Caesar?? Do they belong 
to government any more than your  voluntary giving belongs to the minor 
baseball league, the cancer society, or any other charity that asks for your 
donations?? God is our creator and the acknowledgment of that fact is due to 
Him. But volunteering to acknowledge government and government agencies as 
our creator, and relying on government for aid in time of need is rendering 
unto Caesar what is God's!!

You are right that we did not choose to be born into a world with such 
structures, but we DO choose how to respond to them! We can go with the 
flow, or we can acknowledge the truth and be transformed, rather than being 
conformed to this world.

You wrote:God who still sits on the throne tells us that Governmental power 
and authority are from Him. Jesus reminded Pontius Pilate of this fact, Paul 
reiterates it in Romans 13 and Peter restates it in 1 Peter 2:13,14. We are 
also taught not to resist evil but to overcome evil with good and Jesus 
paying taxes is one example of this. God provided the money and Jesus paid. 
After all the temporal is passing away as we speak/write - and the eternal 
is what is important. Making a big todo and resisting the powers that be 
make professing believers appear to be self-righteous and over the top 
bringing no glory to God even if the argument is basically correct.

Yes, God has ordained the powers that be. But refusing to pay voluntary 
taxes to support the wicked programs of such rulers is NOT resisting evil!  
It is obeying God's commands re. not being unequally yoked together with 
unbelievers! (II Cor.6:14 and following) It is obeying God's command to have 
no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. (Ephesians 5:11) It is 
obeying God's command to refuse to cast in our lot with sinners and have one 
purse with them in supporting laying wait for blood, running to evil, taking 
away the life of the owners thereof...all for the greed of gain!  (Proverbs 
1:10-19)  It is obeying the commandments and warnings of God not to be 
surety for the debts of others. (Proverbs 6:1-5 etc)

You wrote:The whole world lieth in the evil one which means they are 
deceived and deceived ppl don't know they are deceived. God does not hold us 
morally responsible for something we have no control over. Rather he holds 
us responsible for the choice we make each day personally to do it His way 
or the way we think it should be.

You are right that God does not hold us morally responsible for something we 
have no control over. That is why the Lord Jesus and his disciples paid 
mandatory taxes and that is why I do the same.  But once I discovered that 
Income Tax was in fact a voluntary tax, I was morally responsible if I 
continued to choose to voluntarily donate funds for wicked means!

Let me illustrate the difference: My tax dollars collected in sales tax, 
goods and services tax, gasoline tax, property tax, education tax etc etc 
are used for many immoral and godless means. But God does not hold me 
morally responsible for such wicked use of tax revenue which is demanded of 
me (any more than the Lord Jesus was morally responsible for the wicked uase 
of Roman tax revenue which he gave.)

However, when such agencies as Planned Parenthood come knocking at my door 
asking for donations through The United Way, if I voluntarily contribute 
to support such agencies which promote promiscuity and abortions among 
teenagers, I MUST CERTAINLY BEAR MORAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR SUCH VOLUNTARY 
CONTRIBUTIONS BECAUSE I DO HAVE CONTROL, I DO HAVE THE CHOICE TO GIVE OR 
NOT! In the very same way, I could no longer contribute to Income Tax once I 
knew that such taxation was indeed voluntary.

In response to my comment that many Amish and Mennonites do not have S.I.N's 
or SSN's, you wrote:The Mennonites and Amish IMO have religious spirits, 
they are looked upon here as tourist attractions and novelties because of 
their old fashioned ways ATST there is no spiritual power in their lives to 
release captives and set ppl free.

Dear sister, I was not claiming that all those who refuse such numbers have 
spiritual power! I simply was proving that having such numbers is NOT a 
legal obligation for anyone. Being so numbered is strictly voluntary.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with

[TruthTalk] Carnality

2003-09-13 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Terry,

You wrote:Paul says in one place, To be carnally minded is death, but in
another place, he speaks of carnal Christians.

I think the two texts of which you speak are Romans 8:6 and I Cor.3.

First of all, I think we would be wise to notice the facts that Paul states
in I Cor.3 relative to the Corinthian believers whom he calls carnal:
(1)They are brethren and babes in Christ v.1

(2)There is envying strife and division among them and they walk as men
i.e. as natural men or unconverted men. v.31

(3)They believed on Christ as a result of the preaching of Paul and Apollos.
v.5

(4)They were God's husbandry and God's building. v.9

(5)They could build works of gold, silver, and precious stones which would
not burn when tried by fire and which would be rewarded, or they could build
works of wood, hay and stubble which would be burned up when tried by fire
and such would suffer loss. Those whose works will be burned up will be
saved, but their works will be destroyed. v.12-15

(6)They, with all other believers compose the temple of God and the Spirit
of God dwells in them. v.16

(7)If any man DEFILES the temple of God, him will God DESTROY. Both of
these are the same original word which is translated corrupt in every
other place it is used in the KJV.

(8)All things are theirs! v.21,22

(9)They are Christ's and Christ is God's. v.23

With these things in mind, let us go back and seek to discover what to be
carnally minded is death indicates.

It is very clear that it does NOT mean:
- that such will lose their salvation!( See #5 above) nor
- that Christ disowns them (See #'s 1,2,4,6,8 and 9 above).
But it is also very clear that it DOES mean:
-that such are immature (See #1 above),
-that the behaviour of such is like unconverted men and not children of
God (See #2 above),
-that there are eternal consequences for carnality:
- works will be burned up
- reward will be lost (See #5 above)
-God will corrupt or mar those who defile the temple of
God by building with the wrong
materials. (See #7 above)

Since death in scripture always designates separation, from what is one
who is carnally minded separated?

(1)While he walks after the flesh in a carnal manner:
- he is separated from fellowship with God. (See I John 1:6,7)
- he is separated from enjoying what mature believers enjoy, he is
only able to bear milk and
not the meat I Cor.1:1,2
-he is separated from the opportunity to be used as a vessel of
honour. See II Tim.2:19-22

(2)For eternity:
-he will be separated from his works which were done in carnality!
His works will all have been in
vain... whatever works were done while he was in a carnal state
will be burned up.
I Cor.3:12-15

I hope that meditation upon these truths of scripture will be helpful to you
and clarify issues over which many have been confused as a result of false
teaching and failure to give heed to what scripture actually SAYS!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] A Good Read/Taxes

2003-09-13 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Judy,

You wrote:In the USA this is what is called 'Income Tax' which law Congress 
initially enacted in 1862 to support the Civil War effort; this was a 
forerunner of our modern income tax.

If I am not mistaken, that tax to support the war effort was, in fact, 
voluntary!

You wrote:There is nothing 'voluntary' about income tax. It is withheld at 
the source and without a Social Security # it is all but impossible to get 
hired in this country that is, unless you can find someone doing things 
'under the table'; people here get in trouble for having yard sales without 
a permit.

Perry's post puts all of this in perspective. Do you see what slavery legal 
persons or franchises of corporate government are really in when they 
have to get permits to have yard sales!!!

I wrote: I pay every tax for which I am liable and which is demanded of me. 
But I refuse to contribute to Income tax because it is a voluntary tax for 
which I am not liable. There is not a single statement in our Canadian 
Income Tax Act nor in your U.S. tax laws which makes any person liable to 
pay income tax!  (By person  here, I meant flesh and blood man or woman 
created by God.  But legal persons, fictional persons, corporations, 
or franchises are a different story!)

You wrote: I don't know about Canada but in the US the Act of 1862 also 
established the office of Commissioner of Internal Revenue and the 
Commissioner was given the power to assess, levy, and collect taxes, and the 
right to enforce the tax laws through seizure of property and income and 
through prosecution. His powers and authority remain very much the same 
today; where are you getting your information from Bruce?

As Perry has pointed out, no one is required to file or pay income tax who 
has not first volunteered to get a SSN  (SIN, Social Insurance Number here 
in Canada), but once one has volunteered to become surety for the national 
debt (precisely what Social Security and Social Insurance are all about!), 
then they ARE LIABLE to pay income tax!  But those who refuse such numbers 
and thus refuse to be surety for the national debt (most Amish, many 
Mennonites and many others who decline to be so numbered, or who revoke such 
numbers and decline to volunteer to file or pay income tax) are NOT  LIABLE! 
 By the way, scripture speaks repeatedly about being surety for the debts 
of others! (See Prov.6:1-5; 11:15; 17:18; 20:16; 22:26; AND 27:13)

When I wrote that it is not necessary or required by law to have SIN's or 
SSN's, you replied: It is so here... I guess one could go hide in a cave 
somewhere for the rest of their days but if you are going to live and work 
in the U.S.A. Income tax being withheld and Social Security are a given for 
this is the law of the land and the IRS are quite diligent. They caught up 
with a friend of mine for not paying her FICA (in ignorance).

If your friend is a registered franchise with the corporate USA she is 
certainly liable to pay such taxes. Ignorant or deliberate...failure to pay 
is tax evasion!  But if she chose to revoke or rescind her registration, 
and function as a free woman, she would no longer be liable at all! The same 
is true for you as well, sister.

A few years ago, I decided to get the facts on this issue here and you may 
do the same. I walked into the large regional office of Human Resources 
Development Canada in London, Ontario. This is the agency which is 
responsible among other things to carry out the E.I.A.(Employment Insurance 
Act).  I asked five simple questions:
(1)Who is required to have a S.I.N.?  To which the clerk responded, Oh, 
EVERBODY, that works!
So, I asked the next question:

(2)Can you show me the legislation that states that?  To which she 
responded, The E.I.A. states that!
So I asked the next question:

(3)Can you show me the specific section of the E.I.A. which states that 
everbody that works has to have a S.I.N.?
The response of the agency which is charged with the responsibility to carry 
out the E.I.A. was, We don't have a copy of the E.I.A. in this building!!!
So I asked the next question:

(4)May I speak to a Human Resources agent?
After a very long wait, I was at last ushered into an office of one of the 
agents who answered the first three questions as above. I then said to him,

(5)Sir, since the HRDC is THE AGENCY which is charged with the 
responsibility of enforcing the E.I.A., and since this is one of the major 
offices of the HRDC in this country, do you really expect me to believe that 
in this entire building, there is not a single copy of the E.I.A???  I did 
not call him or the other clerk a liar! I simply asked him if he expected me 
to believe what he had just told me!!! At that, he left the room and 
returned a few minutes later with  a few photo copied pages of the E.I.A.  
(He must have gone down the street to the corner variety store to find 
it!!!)  None of the sheets which he brought me verified his claim! Later at 
the library, I found,

Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!

2003-09-13 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Judy,

You wrote:Sanctification is not a thing that happened for us 2,000yrs ago;
it is a daily choice on our part to 'work out our own salvation with fear
and trembling'.

In that there is definitely a present and future aspect to the believer's
sanctification, you are correct. But you cannot scripturally deny that
sanctification of the believer also took place in the past! Such is clearly
evident in the following passages:
Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and
from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins,
and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that
are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every
place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are
sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the
Spirit of our God.
2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a
vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared
unto every good work.
Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are
all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of
the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are
sanctified.
Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them
that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and
called:

You wrote:I was recently surprised myself to learn that Paul wrote Romans
7 after he himself had been born again for more than 20yrs. I had heard
faith teachers say that Romans 7 was describing an unregenerate man but
even Paul wrote that he had NOT already attained but that he pressed on.

That is also true! But pressing on does not deny the facts that one is
indeed dead to sin and dead to the law! Pressing on realizes that there is
indeed victory already provided to the child of God through the person and
work of the Lord Jesus Christ! Romans 7:25 and I Cor.15:57,58

You also wrote:IMO these doctrines deny reality and are dangerous.

I think (you can correct me if I have read you wrong) that the doctrines to
which you refer are the ones of which I spoke, namely that believers are
dead to sin and dead to the law. Dear sister, just remember that I did not
originate these docrtines, but they are clearly stated in scripture by the
apostle Paul under the inspiration of the Spirit of God. Such CANNOT be said
for the doctrines that state that believers must die to self, or crucify
the flesh etc etc!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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RE: [TruthTalk] Covenant

2003-09-13 Thread Bruce Woodford

Izzy,

You wrote:BTW, it seems that Bruce has mentioned he has lots of expertise
on the issue of Covenants. How about expounding, Bruce?

I do not claim to be an expert on anything, Izzy, nor an expositor! I
heard once that an expert is a former drip under pressure!!!

But I have enjoyed studying the subject of divine covenants in scripture.
All covenants are promises. In some covenants, the fulfilment of the
promises of the one party are conditional on the fulfilment of the promises
of the other party. The covenant made between God and the nation of Israel
at Sinai was such a covenant. It is this covenant which, in Heb.8:13, is
called the old covenant. Thus to use the term Old Testament or Old
Covenant of the scriptures from Genesis to Malachi is gross misnomer, but
a very common one, indeed!

In the same way, the new covenant was only dedicated at Calvary when the
Lord Jesus died! (Heb.9:16-24) So to use the term New Testament or New
Covenant of the scriptures from Matthew to Revelation is also a gross
misnomer! The vast majority of events recorded in the Gospels took place
while the old covenant made at Sinai was still in effect!

The old covenant regulated outward behaviour, but could not change the
heart. That is why it produced bondage. Gal.4:24 But the new covenant
empowers inward transformation which results in marked changes in outward
behaviour! That is why the hallmark of the new covenant is true liberty!
Gal.5:1 See also Jer.31:31-34 where the new covenant was first prophesied.

The testators of all other covenants died and remained dead. But the
testator of the new covenant rose from the dead and now lives in the power
of an endless life. Heb.7:15-19

I'm not sure whether these basic remarks address the previous discussions of
covenants or not. But feel free to ask specific questions relative to the
above or to the previous discussions and I'll try to be more specific.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] a good read!

2003-09-12 Thread Bruce Woodford

Judy,
You wrote:I've been reading all this about evading taxes and wonder where
this wisdom comes from. This isn't the example Jesus left us. Israel hated
the Romans being over them and exacting taxes, yet Jesus paid them. I have
an aunt whose son-in-law was trying to encourage her to as she called it
diddle on her taxes. She saw it as cheating her fellow man and refused to
let him do it on her behalf.
After some time he was caught and had to pay the consequences.

I don't like the fact that taxes are ever increasing or a lot of ways
Government spends our money ATST Government is ordained by God and I can't
see that letting the other guy carry the load is walking in love toward
him.

Dear sister, this thread is NOT about evading taxes or diddling on ones
taxes. It is all about obeying the Lord Jesus' commands to pay the taxes
for which one is liable, taxes which are demanded. It is also about refusing
to voluntarily contribute to programs which one does not desire to bear the
moral responsibility for. No one bears moral responsibility for the wicked
use of tax revenue which is demanded of them. But when one voluntarily
contributes to programs which one knows are wicked, one cannot escape the
moral accountability before God for the wicked use of funds which one
volunteers to contribute to such wickedness.

I pay every tax for which I am liable and which is demanded of me. But I
refuse to contribute to Income tax because it is a voluntary tax for which
I am not liable. There is not a single statement in our Canadian Income Tax
Act nor in your U.S. tax laws which makes any person liable to pay income
tax!

Many programs and services have been designed specificly to entice people
into paying (social security, Income Tax refunds, employment insurance,
welfare programs etc etc.) I do not claim any of these benfits, nor do I
have any of the required identification numbers. That is another falsehood
which has been foisted on and believed by the general public...i.e.
Everyone that works must have a Social Insurance (Social Security) number.
It just ain't so!

If you will do your own research, you will find all these things and many
more to be the truth!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!

2003-09-11 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Terry,

There may very well be (in many cases such as your friend's) a long painful 
time of disease and deterioration of the body prior to death. I certaibly 
don't deny that. But one who has a week to live is not 50%, 75% or 95% dead, 
they are alive! They die when the soul and spirit leave the body.

Scripture never ever etaches that we are in a dying process nor are we 
ever instructed to crucify ourselves! BTW crucifixion is one means of death 
by which it is impossible to commit suicide! You might get the one hand 
nailed but then you could not nail the other!

Scripture never ever instructs us to crucify the old man! It does command us 
to put off the old man with his deeds  Col.3:9

The fact of scripture that we are dead to sin does NOT mean that we are 
never tempted! It DOES mean that there is NEVER  a time in a Christian's 
experience when he or she HAS TO SIN!  We are no longer under sin's 
dominion.

The fact of scripture that we are dead to the law does NOT mean that we are 
sinlessly perfect, it DOES mean that EVERY CHARGE THAT THE LAW HAD AGAINST 
US HAS BEEN SATISFIED AND THAT WE HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED. Therefore, the law 
has no claim against the believer who has trusted in Christ. As II Cor.5:21 
declares, For He hath made Him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we 
might be made the righteousness of God in Him.

Acknowledging and believing (resting upon) these foundational facts of 
scripture give tremendous power to the child of God when tempted to sin!  
But if a believer, when tempted, thinks that he is still alive to sin (i.e. 
has to sin because he is still under sin's dominion) and still alive to the 
law (the law has many charges against him which have never been 
satisfied)...he is deceived and therefore will live out what he actually 
believes! His life will be one of continual defeat.  But knowing the truth 
will set him free!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Dare you to read this II!
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:23:13 -0500
Bruce:

I thought I had communicated so that anyone could understand.  Evidently
not.  Too bad.
I have a dear friend who has cancer.  In the past three months, he has gone
from two hundred pounds to 137 pounds.  From a big robust man to a bag of
bones.  He will not live another week.  He lives now in terrible pain. Tell
him that dying only takes only an instant.
Since many people die from old age, and since we begin to age at the time 
of
conception, I would say that we begin the dying process when we begin to
age, before we leave the womb.  Dying is a long time thing.

I am not yet able to love everyone, every moment, as I love myself.  No
matter how hard I try, I am not certain that I always do work for other men
the way I would do it for my Lord.  That is a daily struggle.  I must
consciously decide to crucify the old man and live for the Lord.
Evidently,  you are no longer tempted to sin.  Good for you.  I cannot say
that.
Terry
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RE: [TruthTalk] Fw: a good read!

2003-09-01 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy and Terry,

The whole point of the court case and her acquittal was that the IRS
attorneys failed to prove that she was liable to pay! If she was not liable,
what makes you think you were liable to sign up and volunteer in the first
place?

But it's like the army! It's totally voluntary to enlist in the army, but
once you do, you'll be court martialled if you go AWOL!!! Tax evasion is
failure to pay after you have volunteered and agreed that you are liable!!
So don't just stop filing, or they will rightfully get you for tax evasion!

There are proper legal procedures and forms by which you can retrace your
steps to the deceptions that lead you to voluneer in the first place!

Some folks have been asking me personally about this and where to start
their search. Here are some very good places to start:

A couple of sources for piles of information on the U.S. system are the
following:
(1)I started my search as a result of a video series on Creation, Evolution
and Dinosaurs by Dr. Kent Hovind of Creation Science Evangelism in
Pensacola Florida. On his 5th video in a series of 7, he deals with the
affects of the Evolutionary theory and deals with Atheism, Communism and
the New World Order. For about 10 seconds he spoke about Income Tax because
progressive heavy income tax was one of Karl Marx's 10 planks in his
Communist Manifesto. CSE and Dr. Hovind pay thousands of dollars every year
in taxes for which they are liable, but he has not filed or paid Income Tax
for over 20 years. If you call or fax them and ask for his packet of info on
Income Tax, they will send you pages and pages of info and lots of contacts
to further your own research. Their U.S. toll free number is 877-479-3466
and their fax number is: 850-479-8562. Their web site is www.drdino.com.

(2)Another valuable site is that of We The People found at
http://www.givemeliberty.org/

(3)An excellent source for info in Canada is www.detaxcanada.orgThere
are scores of people offering all kinds of detax programs and training
courses for which big bucks are charged! But Eldon Warman, who owns this
site makes his information available without charge and simply asks that
those who use it send him a donation for what they feel the informatioon has
been worth to them. It was this approach that really impressed me, and Eldon
has done his homework, you can be sure! It was his course that I followed
and his legal forms that I used when I contacted the Minister of National
Revenue here in Canada.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk]Covenants

2003-08-14 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Judy,

You wrote: Moses however is known as the mediator of God's Law (Deut 4:13) 
which is called the Law of Moses.

Sister, where in scripture is Moses referred to as such?  And where is the 
covenant made at Sinai EVER CALLED THE LAW?  The law of Moses and the 
Book of the law of Moses is the Book of Deuteronomy, NOT the ten 
commandments as many suppose! Joshua specificly said that Moses wrote about 
not lifting up iron upon stones used for the altar unto the Lord. (Joshua 
8:31)  Such was NOT written in the ten commandments, but rather in 
Deuteronomy 27:5!

You wrote for the second time:The Abrahamic covenant was also conditioned 
upon obedience. Covenants are to the death and Moses almost paid the extreme 
penalty for neglect.

But I had asked you where in Gen.17 (God's covenant with Abraham) are any 
conditions found? You did not answer this question! Also, how does such a 
condition apply to the instance you have referred to relative to Moses???

You had written that there was a covenant between God the Father and God the 
Son, to which I'd responded:I'm sorry sister, but there are no covenants in 
scripture made between divine persons!

You answered:Is this why Jesus is called the lamb slain before the 
foundation of the world? There was no human being involved here

Judy, the lamb slain before the foundation of the world was NOT  a promise 
or covenant made by the Father to the Son or vice versa!

I'd written:So God began to make covenants (binding promises) to assure 
sinful human beings that THEY COULD TRUST HIM!. But because there is no 
distrust between The Father and The Son, there is absolutely no need for any 
covenants between them! 

To this you responded:What about the cross? Jesus the man (son) did not 
want to go there to the point of sweating drops of blood. But he had learned 
obedience by the things he suffered and so submitted his will to the will of 
the Father and went to the cross despising the shame. 

All that you said above is true! But it says nothing at all about any 
distrust between divine persons, nor does it say anything at all about 
divine persons making covenants with each other! So I don't get your point.

I'd written:The covenant in Gen.17 was not made BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE 
SON! IT was made by God WITH ABRAHAM, and through him with Isaac, Jacob and 
their seed. See Exodus 2:24; Leviticus 26:42; 2 Kings 13:23; 1 Chronicles 
16:16; and Psalms 105:9 

To which you responded:Yes the Promise was to Abraham and his seed and 
Jesus is the Promise. He is the fulfillment of every covenant made with man. 


Sister, I think you are dodging the issue again. That Jesus was the promised 
seed says nothing relative to your claim that the Abrahamic covenant was a 
covenant made by the Father WITH the Son!  Scripture clearly states (the 
references I gave above) that God made this covenant WITH ABRAHAM,  NOT with 
Christ!

Judy, I asked you:Sister, can you be specific about the conditions of the 
covenant which God made with Abraham which were violated by Israel which 
violations became the reason why they were in Egyptian bondage?? Where does 
scripture state this idea??

Your response (quoted in full here with a few comments of mine in 
[brackets]), fails to show any such conditions at all!:We know that because 
of his faith Abraham pleased God and it was counted to him for righteousness 
- Abraham was called a friend of God or a 'friend of the covenant. '[This 
term is never found in scripture, sister!]  The patriarchs found themselves 
in Egypt (the house of bondage) because being moved with the sin of envy 
they sold their brother Joseph to the Ishmeelites who brought him to Egypt. 
[I don't think scripture ever states this as the reason at all!] God 
promoted Joseph who was a man of faith with the fear of God in his heart. 
When tempted by his bosses wife Joseph's response tells where he was at 
spiritually ie: how then can I do this great wickedness and sin against 
God? So God blessed and promoted Joseph and things were seemingly well with 
Israel until another king arose over Egypt who knew not Joseph (Acts 7:18). 
By this time the Israelites had lost the knowledge of God for when Moses 
tried to defend one who was being mistreated and minister to them they 
understood not (Acts 7:25)

I had written:Heb.8:10-12 does NOT say that God would put His statutes and 
commandments into their hearts but rather His LAWS.

To this you responded:It is my understanding that Moses wrote all of them 
in the Book of the Law or Torah.

Dear Sister, The Torah is the Pentateuch (Genesis to Deuteronomy) But the 
Book of the law is ONLY the Book of Deuteronomy! This is demonstrated by the 
fact that ALL the things which are said to be written by Moses in the Book 
of the Law are found in the Book of Deuteronomy ALONE!
-the curses of the covenant (Deuteronomy 29:21 and Gal.3:10) are the curses 
(Deut.28) of the covenant made in the plains of Moab, not the covenant  made 
in the

Re: [TruthTalk]Covenants

2003-08-05 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Judy,
You wrote: Wouldn't Mosaic covenant be more exact Bruce?
Actually, this covenant is not spoken of as being made with Moses, but is 
designated by...
-where it was made: Deut.29:1 in Horeb
-when it was made: Deut.29:25; I Kings 8:9; when He brought them out of 
Egypt.
-with whom it was made: I Kings 8:9 with the children of Israel

You wrote: All covenants made with God are conditional - He is the great 
and awesome God who keeps His covenant and loving kindness for those who 
love Him and keep his commandments (Daniel 9:4).

God makes covenants with men. The covenant that is in view in Dan.9:4 is the 
covenant that God made with Israel after they came out of Egypt! It WAS 
CONDITIONED UPON THEIR OBEDIENCE! See Ex.19:5

You wrote: No covenant is unconditional not even the New Covenant. The 
covenant with Abraham as well as the New Covenant are not between unequal 
parties. Abraham did not walk through the pieces, God did. In the New 
Covenant Jesus walked through the pieces on our behalf so the covenant is 
between God the Father and God the Son. Like Mephibosheth we enter the 
Covenant through adoption (as sons) by the King. We are heirs to a 
previously established covenant between God the Father and His son Jesus.

I'm sorry sister, but there are no covenants in scripture made between 
divine persons! Covenants were only established  AFTER sin had entered into 
the world and people found by experience that they could not trust one 
anothers' word or promises!  So God began to make covenants (binding 
promises) to assure sinful human beings that THEY COULD TRUST HIM!. But 
because there is no distrust between The Father and The Son, there is 
absolutely no need for any covenants between them! The covenant in Gen.17 
was not made BETWEEN THE FATHER AND THE SON! IT was made by God WITH 
ABRAHAM, and through him with Isaac, Jacob and their seed. SeeExodus 2:24; 
Leviticus 26:42; 2 Kings 13:23; 1 Chronicles 16:16;  and Psalms 105:9

You wrote:The Mosaic covenant was a revelation of God's holiness and His 
desire for a holy people. The Hebrews had found themselves in bondage to 
Egypt because they were transgressing the Abrahamic covenant (they were not 
obedient to its conditions) and so God gave them a tutor or schoolmaster in 
the form of law until the time of the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham 
(Gal 3:23-25)

Sister, can you be specific about the conditions of the covenant which God 
made with Abraham which were violated by Israel which violations became the 
reason why they were in Egyptian bondage??  Where does scripture state this 
idea??

You wrote:Note that Hebrews 9:1 describes that what was vanishing were the 
ordinances of divine service and the worldly sanctuary and not God's 
statutes and commandments which according to Hebrews 8: 10-12 had been put 
into their minds and written on their hearts.

Sister, I would remind you that the worldly sanctuary of Heb.9 along with 
it's furnishings, the ark the cherubim etc had passed away centuries before 
Hebrews 9!!!  Also Heb.8:10-12 does NOT say that God would put His statutes 
and commandments into their hearts but rather His LAWS.

Deut. 4:13 defines the specific contents of the covenant that was first made 
with them children of Israel as THE TEN COMMANDMENTS!  This is precisely the 
first covenant (Heb.8:7-9) which decayed, waxed old and was ready to vanish 
away when the Book of Hebrews was written nearly two millenia ago!

The book of the law  in which the curses were written (Gal.3:10) was the 
Book of Deuteronomy! See Deuteronomy 29:21; 30:10; 31:26; Joshua 1:8  Such 
was only a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ and we are NO LONGER UNDER 
THAT SCHOOLMASTER, BUT ARE RATHER THE CHILDREN OF GOD BY FAITH IN CHRIST 
JESUS! (Gal.3:21-26)

You wrote:God never did dwell in temples made with hands; Acts 7:48 refers 
to the prophet Nathan who told David to do what was on his heart but later 
returned with a word from God see (2 Sam 7:5-17). Vs.13 does not speak of 
Solomon; we know that Solomon's kingdom did not last forever, this verse 
refers to Jesus who is the one with the everlasting kingdom.

Judy, Exodus 25:8 specificly tells us that that children of Israel were to 
build the tabernacle as a sanctuary so God could dwell among them. True, it 
was a TENT and NOT a HOUSE as II Sam.7 states. But AFTER Solomon's temple 
was built, God did dwell there!  The Lord Jesus stated repeatedly concerning 
the temple in Jerusalem that it was HIS FATHER'S HOUSE!  God also dwelt in 
the bush, where Moses met Him! See  Deut.33:16.

You wrote: I agree that most of what we see is lopsided. ATST baby 
Christians can not be expected to do the work of the ministry, they have to 
learn.

(I don't know what ATST means!) Sister, I do not seek to be disagreeable, 
but I cannot agree with you assumption that only mature body members can 
minister. This is never stated in scripture! Think of your grandchildren 
when they were born: not one of their members

RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

2003-08-03 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Grandma Izzy!

Georgia peaches and ice cream make a great breakfast! My wife and I are 
enjoying our first grandchild at every opportunity we get, a beautiful 5 
month old bundle of joy! What a treasure they are!

You wrote:Let me put it this way--I, as a female woman-person, do not feel 
that I am an appropriate Leader of a Church Body.  However, my husband and I 
have had the desire to have a fellowship of some kind meeting in our home.  
He does not seem comfortable, either, in assuming Leadership of such a body. 
 We think it would be better to do it under the covering of our church, but 
haven't gotten around to setting that up. That's where we are. So pray for 
the Lord's leading if you wish..

Dear Sister, NO ONE, male or female and no matter how spiritually mature or 
gifted is an  appropriate Leader of a Church Body! To assume that one is 
capable of such a task is to assume that one is capable of usurping the the 
place of Christ whom God has made Head of the Body! God has already 
appointed an appropriate Leader for every gathering, namely Christ, and the 
Lord Jesus, Himself,  has promised to be there in our midst when even 2 or 3 
gather in His name! (Matthew 18:20)

See the following scriptures:
Ephesians 1:15-23:
 the God of our Lord Jesus Christ,
 the Father of glory...
hath put all things under his feet,
  AND GAVE HIM TO BE THE HEAD OVER ALL THINGS TO THE CHURCH,

  WHICH IS HIS BODY ,

  the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Ephesians 4:11-16:
Whom did Christ give?
 And he gave some apostles
  and some prophets
  and some evangelists
  and some pastors
  and teachers
Why did He give such gifts?
   For the perfecting of the saints,
Why do saints need perfecting? for the work of the 
ministry
What is the purpose of the work of the ministry?  for the edifying 
of the body of Christ:
How long is the Body to be edified?
   Till we all come in the unity of the faith,
   and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
 unto a perfect man,  unto the measure of the 
stature of the fulness of Christ:
Why is such maturity necessary?
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro,
and carried about 
with every wind of doctrine
by 
the sleight of men,
   and 
cunning craftiness,
   
whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
 But speaking the truth in love, MAY GROW UP INTO HIM IN ALL THINGS, 
WHICH IS THE HEAD,
 EVEN CHRIST:
  From whom the whole body fitly joined together
and compacted by that which 
every joint supplieth,
according to the effectual 
working in the measure of every part,
maketh increase of the body 
unto the edifying of itself in love.

Colossians 1:18:
And he (Christ) is the head of the body,
  the church:
   who is the beginning,
 the firstborn from the dead;
   that in all things he might have the preeminence.
The sad thing is that when mortal men are appointed to be leaders, a number 
of detrimental things happen:
-they usurp the place of Christ,
-they prevent the exercise of the gifts which Christ has placed in the Body 
(apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers)
-they assume that their job description is 3 fold:-perfecting the saints,
 -doing the 
work of ministry and
 -edifying 
the Body of Christ!
-because that assumption is utterly false, none of those things actually get 
done!

It takes apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers ALL doing 
their work TO PERFECT (or mature) the saints!

Then it is God's purpose that THE SAINTS do the work of the ministry!

Only when the saints do the work of the ministry is the Body actually 
edified!!!

Dear Sister, are you sure that it is God's desire and intention that you do 
anything UNDER THE COVERING of YOUR CHURCH??

What scripture(s) would teach such a concept? What does it mean 
(scripturally) to be under the covering of one's church??  I realize this 
concept of being under a covering has become a very popular teaching 
designed to enslave people to the assumed authority of men who pattern 
themselves after the leadership style of the kings of the Gentiles instead 
of after the

RE: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

2003-08-03 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Grandmother Izzy,

Please pardon my improper designation of your relation to your little
peaches!

Our grandchild is a little girl, Marika.

You asked:What in your estimation is a pastor?

First of all, the singular form of the word is NEVER used in scripture to
designate any other identifiable individuals except ABEL (the first shepherd
when there only was one of them) and the Lord or Christ!! So the vast
majority of times the word is used it speaks of a plurality of shepherds
even when there is a singular flock. (See Luke 2:8 as one example.)

Pastors are shepherds of sheep. Their role is not to be king, CEO,
president, director, chief administrator, baker or chef etc. Shepherds
smell like sheep! Shepherds know the sheep. But shepherds are never hired by
sheep, fired by sheep or salaried by sheep! But shepherds are loved by the
sheep and followed by the sheep. A man may be salaried, may be called
pastor etc, but if there are no sheep following him, he is not a pastor.
Shepherds need not be public speakers or gifted administrators, but they do
know the Owner of the sheep and have a heart to care for His sheep.

When I spoke of the five kinds of gifted men God has given to the church as
being responsible to perfect the saints so the saints can do the work of
the ministry, so the Body can be edified, you asked:But why would that
eliminate a church in the traditional sense?

Izzy, I think you answered your own question as you described the contrasts
between what happens in traditional church services and what happens in
more informal house meetings. Equipping of saints to do the work of the
ministry just DOES NOT HAPPEN in gatherings where they are expected to be
uninvolved spectators.

When I suggested that the very common teaching that people are to be under
the covering of a church or of a church leader was not at all a scriptural
teaching, you responded:Oh, goodie--I can't wait to tell my husband that I
am not under his covering!

Neither, you nor any other woman was ever under the covering of their
husband nor any other man!

But just as God is the head of Christ, and Christ is the head of the man, so
the man (husband) is also head of the woman. The covering is what the man is
to remove from his head when he prays or prophesies and is what the woman is
to put ON her head when she prays or prophesies.

What the man is to do with his head (uncover it) and what the woman is to do
with hers (cover it) both teach the very same truth!

What they are instructed to do with their physical heads while praying and
prophesying is an object lesson for the angels which demonstrates that
Christ (the head of the man) is to have the pre-eminent place (uncovered).
Col.1:18 The man (the head of the woman) is NOT to have pre-eminence! Thus,
her physical head is to be covered.

That's the only covering in scripture that I know of that God would have you
to be under!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

2003-08-02 Thread Bruce Woodford

 
will help you to see that you have probably particpated in house church 
meetings far more often than you realize!!! Why not go in for making it a 
purposeful act whenever you are with other saints???
Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bruce Woodford
Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 5:32 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches
Hi Laura,
You wrote:Believe me if my church taught false doctrine I'd be looking for 
another place to worship.
Dear Sister, does your church teach and ractice:
-that the church is to be lead by the pastor?
-that the pastor is hired and paid by the church?
-that the church building is to be maintained from the collection which 
scripture says is to be for poor saints?
-that believers are to tithe to support the pastor and the church programs?
-that in regular church gatherings the congregation is to be silent and 
listen to sermons from the pastor?
-that church members are to be accountable to the pastor or other church 
leaders?
If any of these doctrines are believed and taught in your church, there is 
very prominent false doctrine. (All of these practices are not only 
unscriptural, they are contrary to scripture!)
The church is to be lead by Christ, the Head.Shepherds are never hired, paid 
nor fired by the sheep! Shepherds are appointed by the Owner of the sheep 
and their needs are met as they labour with their own hands. Acts 20:28-35
New covenant saints have no sanctified buildings to maintain! Collections 
are for poor saints. I Cor.16:1,2 and II Cor.8 and 9
Tithing has absolutely nothing to do with new covenant saints or new 
covenant churches!
When new covenant saints assemble together they are NOT to be silent, but 
are rather to provoke one another to love and to good works, they are to 
exhort one another, they are to edify one another etc. Heb.10:24,25
All believers are accountable to God alone for their assignments and for the 
evaluation of their service. Rom.14:12. Even those who lead are accountable 
to God and must give account to Him. Heb.13:17
But sister, please do not go looking for another place We are not 
called to find a place! Old covenant woship HAD to be in the right PLACE 
because God put His name in ONE PLACE and if you didn't worship there you 
were in the wrong PLACE!
But new covenant worship is not in places. God no longer dwells in temples 
made with hands. He now dwells in PERSONS. He dwells in His people and they 
dwell in Him! Christians do not GO TO CHURCH, we ARE THE CHURCH where ever 
we go! Our responsibilility is to recognize other believers and build 
relationships with each other in our normal activities and normal gathering 
places. That is why new covenant believers gathered in homes! There was a 
church in Aquila and Priscilla's home, a church in Philemon's home, a church 
in Nymphas' home, prayer meetings in homes, breaking bread from house to 
house etc etc.
Far better to simply look for other believers who live within a few blocks 
of your home (or if you live in the country- within a few miles of your 
home) and seek to build relationships with them. Pray with them, eat with 
them, sing with them, encourage each other in the Word, when you find some 
among them who are in need, give to them.  By this shall all men know that 
ye are my disciples if ye have love one to another.
The hallmark of new covenant ministry of saints is reciprocal one 
anothering! Loving one another, praying for one another, confessing faults 
one to another, edifying one another, exhorting one another, bearing one 
another's burdens etc etc.
Your brother in Christ,
Bruce

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Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

2003-08-02 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Laura,
Welcome back!
You wrote: I still am happy with my present church and have no problem with 
you worshipping in a home setting.  Whatever floats your boat!I would 
have a problem if you said home churches were the only way to worship.

Dear Sister, Is our happiness with a situation the benchmark that should 
guide us in our Christian lives and walk with the Lord and His people?  If 
Abraham had said to the Lord, I'm quite happy here in Ur of the Chaldees, 
I'd rather not head off somewhere in the desert not knowing where I'm 
going! or I'm quite happy to stay home and not take Isaac up to mount 
Moriah, do you think he would have enjoyed the blessing of God on His life 
that God had intended?

In like manner, thousands of Christians are quite happy to stay within a 
situation that is familiar and comfortable even though they are well aware 
that many things about that situation are contrary to scripture.

I think it was you who said that if you found that your church held false 
doctrines, you'd soon be finding another church. But you haven't responded 
to my questions about many false teachings and practices that you have 
indicated are held and practiced in your church.

There is a massive difference between happiness based on a familiar comfort 
zone and joy that is based on obedience to what one knows God has convicted 
them about in His Word.  The safest, most secure, and most joyful place in 
all the universe is the place of obedience to Him.

Here's a very funny but serious song about someone who is concerned to 
maintain their comfort zone and totally unwilling to obey the Lord if he 
should call them into the unknown

PLEASE DON'T SEND ME TO AFRICA

O Lord I'm your willing servant
 You know that I have been for years
 I'm here in this pew every Sunday and Wednesday
 I've stained it with many a tear
 I've given you years of my service
 I've always given my best
 And I've never asked you for anything much
 So Lord I deserve this request
 Chorus:
 Please don't send me to Africa
 I don't think I've got what it takes
 I'm just a man, I'm not a tarzan
 Don't like lions, gorillas, or snakes
 I'll serve you here in suburbia
 In my comfortable middle class life
 But please don't send me out in the bush
 Where the natives are restless at night
 I'll see that the money is gathered
 I'll see that the money is sent
 I'll wash and stack the communion cups
 I'll tithe 11 percent
 I'll volunteer for the nursery
 I'll go on the youth retreat
 I'll usher, I'll deacon, I'll go door to door
 Just let me keep warming this seat
 Chorus:
 Please don't send me to Africa
 I don't think I've got what it takes
 I'm just a man, I'm not a tarzan
 Don't like lions, gorillas, or snakes
 I'll serve you here in suburbia
 In my comfortable middle class life
 But please don't send me out in the bush
 Where the natives are restless at night
Are homes the only place to worship?

Of course, homes are not the only place believers can worship the Lord! 
Saints can do it beside a river (Acts 16), they can do it with their backs 
beaten and bloodied in stocks in filthy prisons (Acts 16),  they can do it 
as a little band of travelling evangelists in a room of the lodging house 
where they have their temporary abode (Acts 20), they can do it as lonely 
prisoners on board ship with a mob of unbelievers around them (Acts 27).

But you will search the the new covenant scriptures in vain to find saints 
gathering in temples, sanctuaries, auditoriums etc which they have bought or 
built for the purpose! You will search in vain to find new covenant saints 
gathering to listen to a clergyman preach them a sermon. You will search 
in vain to find new covenant saints tithing to pay the salary of their 
clergyman or the mortgage on their sanctuary. And you will search in vain to 
find any flock of sheep in scripture hiring their pastors, paying their 
pastors' salaries or firing their pastors!  Those are all the 
responsibilities of the Owner of the sheep!

New covenant church always function by new covenant principles.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

2003-08-02 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Laura,

You wrote:OK Let me rephrase that! GOD has not told me to change my method
of worship!

The point is not whether He told you to change, but rather did He give you
scriptural guidance to commence your current method of worship in the
first place?

In other words is the system, in which you currently participate, patterned
after new covenant principles or those of the old covenant which has
decayed, waxed old and vanished away? Heb.8:13

When I wrote:I think it was you who said that if you found that your church
held false doctrines, you'd soon be finding another church. But you haven't
responded to my questions about many false teachings and practices that you
have indicated are held and practiced in your church

You responded:What right do you have to say that my church has many false
teachings and practices?

Please correct and pardon me if I am wrong, but I thought it was you who
told us that your church paid a pastor and he earned every cent. I think
that that was in response to the following questions which I asked you. But
if I recall, you had not responded to the rest of these questions. If these
things are not true of your present gathering, I ask you to forgive me for
making false assumptions. But if you answer yes to any of the following
questions, it is clear that your church does in fact teach and practice
false doctrine.

The following is what I'd previously written:
You wrote:Believe me if my church taught false doctrine I'd be looking for
another place to worship.
Dear Sister, does your church teach and practice:
-that the church is to be lead by the pastor?
-that the pastor is hired and paid by the church?
-that the church building is to be maintained from the collection which
scripture says is to be for poor saints?
-that believers are to tithe to support the pastor and the church programs?
-that in regular church gatherings the congregation is to be silent and
listen to sermons from the pastor?
-that church members are to be accountable to the pastor or other church
leaders?
If any of these doctrines are believed and taught in your church, there is
very prominent false doctrine. (All of these practices are not only
unscriptural, they are contrary to scripture!)

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

2003-07-18 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Laura,
You responded to my questions as follows:
 Dear Sister, does your church teach and practice:
 -that the church is to be lead by the pastor?  YES   With a board
 -that the pastor is hired and paid by the church?   Yes and he earns 
every
 penny
 -that the church building is to be maintained from the collection which
 scripture says is to be for poor saints?   YES
 -that believers are to tithe to support the pastor and the church 
programs?
 The scriptures teach this
 -that in regular church gatherings the congregation is to be silent and
 listen to sermons from the pastor?  NO
 -that church members are to be accountable to the pastor or other church
 leaders?   Not necessarilyAccountable to God
If these are truly scriptural doctrines/practices, would you please show the 
scriptures that would teach these practices to new covenant believers?

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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[TruthTalk] N.T. preaching

2003-07-17 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Gary,

I had written:Very little (If any) real ministry takes place with people
staring at the backs of other people's heads!

And you responded: What's the role of preaching in the NT? Is (NT)
preaching essential to (NT) churches; how so? (Define preaching--and, pls
try to make it interesting...I'm feelin' a little woozy this a.m. lol)

To help you stay awake, brother, I'm going to tell you that my homiletics
professors in Bible school lied to me! More on this later! God designed
new covenant preaching to be a very effective communication channel for
divine truth. Satan has sapped the life and vitality from preaching with
his substitute rhetorical sermonizing which puts multitudes to sleep every
Sunday morning!!!

There are at least a couple of basic KINDS of preaching in the new
covenant scriptures.
1.Apostolic gospel preachers, or evangelists whose intended audience was the
unconverted
-preached as town criers (the Greek word KERUSSO is used in
Matt.4:17 and
many other texts) or
-they preached as announcing good news ( the Greek word EUAGGELIZO
or
evangelize is used in Luke 4:18 and many other texts.)
- they preached (said, uttered, spoke or told) the word (the Greek
word LALEO
which is used in Mark 2:2 of the Lord Jesus' preaching the Word to
the multitudes.
-then there was bold preaching, as that of Saul at Damascus (the
Greek
PARRHESIAZOMAI, to be bold, or speak boldly).
The kind of preaching described by these words DOES NOT REQUIRE AUDIENCE
PARTICIPATION. But it is indeed a rare ocurrence in scripture where this
kind of preaching did not
elicit response from the audience! Almost always the speaker was interrupted
with questions,
opposition, or agreement from those who were convicted by the message!

2.But there is another kind of preaching which is used both by evangelists
reaching the unsaved AND
by teachers preaching to believers. This is a kind of communication which
REQUIRES
INTERACTION AND PARTICIPATION of the prime speaker with the others who are
present. It is this
kind of preaching that Paul was involved in - in Acts 20 when he preached
until midnight. This
was NOT a longwinded SERMON as many suppose! It was a very interactive and
very effective
means of communicating truth so that the hearers remembered what was spoken.
It was remembered
BECAUSE they were actively involved in the process of communication! This
preaching (the Greek
word DIALEGOMAI is also translated disputed and reasoned. It is
precisley for this reason
that we ALWAYS remember discussions in which we actively participate but
rarely remember even a
fraction of the content of lectures or sermons which we had to sit through
in silence!

It was this kind of interactive preaching that Paul used most often when
preaching in the
synagogues.(Acts 17:17 and 18:4) It seems that it was his consistent manner
of preaching among the
saints. (See Acts 19:9; 20:7 and 9)

Preaching in the first century was radically different from that to which
most Christians have become
accustomed in our day! For centuries, the homiletics classes of our
seminaries and Bible schools,
have been influenced NOT by the preaching methods of the apostles, but
rather by GREEK
RHETORIC! A rheorical question is one which does NOT anticipate an
audible response. So too, our
modern day sermonizing has completely silenced the people of God, entombed
them in pews where
questions, comments, challenges, or discussions are absolutely ANATHEMA!

This is where my homiletics professors (probably unknowingly!) lead us
preacher boys astray!
Because they had been so thoroughly indoctrinated in Greek rhetoric rather
than in apostolic
preaching, they told us that a Homily was a sermon, a monologue lecture!
They told us that
homiletics was the art of sermon preparation and delivery! The reason
why I say those professors
mislead us is because the word homily (the Greek word HOMILEO) is found
four times in the new
covenant scriptures (Luke 24:14,15 and Acts 20:11 and 24:26). In every case
it is a CONVERSATION
INVOLVING A NUMBER OF PEOPLE! It is NEVER MONOLOGUE LECTURE OR SERMON!!!

It is for this reason that I said, :Very little (If any) real ministry
takes place with people staring at the backs of other people's heads!

I trust this will help you to understand not only the role but also the
nature of genuine new covenant preaching in real new covenant church
gatherings!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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[TruthTalk] Practical Issues relative to House Churches

2003-07-17 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Laura,
You wrote:I'm interested too in who they are accountable to besides God. I 
guess I'm leery because friends of mine back in DE got mixed up in a home 
church and really were taught some false doctrine.

You have mentioned two very important items: accountability and false 
doctrine.

There is a lot of talk in churches today about accountability but very 
little sound scriptural teaching on the subject! In fact the doctrine of 
accountability which has become so common in denominational and 
institutional churches is positively false doctrine!!!

Has anyone in any religious organization or denominational church ever 
taught you that ALL accountability in scripture is VERTICAL! (i.e. Godward!) 
 That is the scriptural doctrine of accountability!
Every reference in scripture to believers giving account or being 
accountable is in reference to God! Accountability has to do with two 
things: (1)From whom do I,as a believer, get my ASSIGNMENTS? and (2)Who is 
the one who is qualified to give an accurate EVALUATION of how I have 
fulfilled such assignments?
The popular accountability doctrine teaches that I need to be under 
accountability, that I need to get my assignments from a pastor, from a 
board of directors etc and that I must report on how I have fulfilled their 
assignments so that they can evaluate my performance!  This is NOT the 
scriptural doctrine of accountability, but rather the doctrine of religious 
control which has usurped the place of Christ as Head of the members of His 
Body!

The following is an excerpt from a study and brief article I did a few years 
ago on the subject of Accountability and Supply in N.T. Ministry. (I'll be 
happy to send the entire article to any who request it.)
**
(The following are all the N.T. references I could find which deal with the 
subject of accountability. They all use the same Greek word.)

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall 
give ACCOUNT thereof in the day of judgment. Matt.12:36

Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would 
take ACCOUNT of his servants. Matt.18:23

After a long time the Lord of those servants cometh, and RECKONETH with 
them. Matt.25:19

And he called him and said unto him, How is it that I hear this of thee? 
Give ACCOUNT of thy stewardship, for thou mayest no longer be steward. Luke 
16:2

So then every one of us shall give ACCOUNT of himself to God. Rom.14:12

Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all 
things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom WE HAVE TO DO. 
Heb.4:13

Obey them which have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they 
watch for your souls, as they that must give ACCOUNT, that they may do it 
with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. Heb.13:17

The Gentiles...shall give ACCOUNT to Him that is ready to judge the quick 
and the dead. I Peter 4:5

OBSERVATIONS: While, on the human plane, we are to render OBEDIENCE to 
people whom God has given to have authourity over us:
   -children to parents
   -citizens to kings and governors
   -Christians to elders
   -employees to employers ... yet

(1)Accountability in scripture is ALWAYS VERTICAL (Godward). It is NEVER 
HORIZONTAL (manward).
(2)Accountability in scripture ALWAYS HAS TO DO WITH STEWARDSHIP WHICH IS 
RENDERED TO GOD (accounting for responsibilities or resources which have 
been entrusted to one by God.)It NEVER HAS
  TO DO WITH STEWARDSHIP WHICH IS RENDERED TO MEN(accounting for 
responsibilities or resources which have been entrusted to one by other 
men.)
(3) Accountability in scripture ALWAYS INVOLVES:
   a. GOD-GIVEN DIRECTION for one's life or service,
   b. GOD-GIVEN EVALUATION of one's life or service. (NEVER MEN'S DIRECTION 
OR EVALUATION of one's life or service.)

For these reasons CONFUSION AND CONFLICT OF INTERESTS HAVE ALWAYS PLAGUED 
CHRISTIANS WHENEVER THEY HAVE CONSIDERED THEMSELVES ACCOUNTABLE TO PARENTS, 
THE STATE, CHURCH LEADERS, EMPLOYERS, OR UNCONVERTED DONORS OR COMMUNITY 
GROUPS REGARDING THEIR MINISTRIES OR THE EXERCISE OF THEIR SPIRITUAL GIFTS 
WHICH HAVE BEEN GIVEN BY GOD!
***
Secondly, you have expressed the fear of false doctrine coming from a house 
church. I wonder, have you ever in your life before (even once or twice) 
heard of a false doctrine being taught in an institutional or denominational 
congregation?

Neither are immune to false doctrine, but let me ask you, in which kind of 
gathering is there likely to be opportunity to challenge false doctrine 
which is publicly taught?? The average believer in a house church can and 
should challenge any doctrine that is taught which is not sound! Have you 
ever tried that in an institutional church??!!!

Rather, in most such congregations you actually have to subscribe to false 
doctrine

Re: [TruthTalk] What is a new testament church?

2003-07-16 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Laura,

You wrote:
Interesting method of worship. Where do you send your tithe and do you
support mission programs.
New covenant believers are never taught to tithe! Rather than 10% being the
Lord's, new covenant believers are taught that they are stewards of 100% of
what their Lord has entrusted to them and will be called to give account for
how they used and invested the WHOLE AMOUNT! We believe that the TOTAL is
the Lord's and we are simply stewards of HIS resources which He has
entrusted to us.Tithes were commanded to Israel under the old covenant for
the support of the Levites and priests (a distinct priestly family who did
not receive an inheritance of land like the other tribes.)

But all new covenant believers are priests, ministers, clergy, and are all
ordained to bear fruit that remains, so there is NO PRIESTLY CLASS to be
supported. So for what purpose would tithes be paid by new covenant
saints??? Actually we give a lot more than 10 % to be invested in eternal
investments (getting the Word of God into people and people into the Word of
God.) Right now there are 4 young people ages 18-22 from the house church
here who are out of the country this summer on missions trips. They have
been recipients of personal and anonymous gifts from the saints. All of us
lay by in store as God has prospered us (in a special drawer at home, a
special bank account, or a special place in wallet or purse) and give to
needy people or projects as God directs us individually. There is far more
joy this way than simply contibuting to an offering from which others
determine how it will be spent.

You see new covenant believers have no salaries to pay to a priestly class
and they have no obligation to contribute to offerings for the purchase
and maintenance of religious buildings (mortgages, utilities, insurance,
renovations etc) so 100% of their giving can be invested in actual ministry
with eternal dividends guaranteed! Such principles bring tremendous liberty
and joy in giving as unto the Lord!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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[TruthTalk] What is a new testament church?

2003-07-15 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
On Truth Talk, is it not our purpose to be speaking the truth in love 
Eph.4:15?
With this in view, I would like to ask a few questions with the intent of 
encouraging some heart to heart truth talks among us:

(1)What is a new testament/covenant church?
(2)How can you know for sure that the church of which  you are a part is 
actually a new covenant church?
(3)If the mission/organization/ministry with which you work claims to plant 
new testament churches, how can  you be sure they are true to their claim?
(4)Many gatherings which claim to be new testament churches are almost 
excusively patterned after old covenant principles and practices.What are 
the marks which clearly distinguish between old covenant practices and new 
covenant practices? Can you tell the difference?
(5)If you moved into a new community looking for a new covenant church, 
exactly what would you be looking for? How would you recognize it when you 
saw it?

Where would such a church gather?
How would the headship of Christ be demonstrated in its gatherings?
What would be its' membership requirements?
What would be the credentials of its' leadership?
How would they be recognized?
How would they function?
How would their needs be met?
What would be the credentials of its' ministers?
How would they be recognized?
How would they function?
How would their needs be met?
What principles would govern its' finances and use of money?
How would the funds that it disbursed be collected?
Who would disburse it's funds?
If any of these questions have a bearing on truths which the Lord has taught 
to you through His Word, or through the hard knocks of life, please share 
those truths from your heart to ours!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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[TruthTalk] Not yet married

2003-07-15 Thread Bruce Woodford

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

In view of rapidly declining moral standards in the world and in the
church...
In view of the declining percentage of couples getting married compared to
those who live together...
In view of the rapid increase in percentages of married couples getting
divorced

Could I speak to all those not yet married, who hope to be married or who
are actually planning to be married?

Does scripture, does the church, can you YOURSELF speak with conviction to
the two sets of questions below? If you AND your intended spouse cannot
answer the following questions with certainty and Biblical conviction, I
would plead with you to put all marriage plans on hold UNTIL YOU CAN!!

(1)What kind of unions does God join together? If you plan to get married in
the near future, how can you be sure that God will join the union you are
about to enter? If you are entering a marriage union and retaining the right
to sever that union in the event of specified perils are you sure you
understand the nature of unions which God joins? Does God join all legal
marriages? What kinds of unions does God NOT join? Is it possible that the
union you are anticipating is such a union? What distinguishes between
unions that God joins and those which He doesn't?

(2)What kind of unions are they which man has no right to put asunder? If
you plan to marry soon, are you convinced that neither you, your intended
spouse, nor any judge or lawyer will ever have the right to put asunder the
union which you are about to enter? What impact do you think one's personal
concept of marriage has upon one's determination to honor (for better or for
worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health till death do us
part) the marriage covenant into which they enter?

Scriptural answers to such questions will definitely guide you to know
whether to proceed with or to terminate prospective marriage plans.

If you do not yet have the personal and Biblical convictions necessary to
answer the questions above, could I encourage you to ASK your specific
questions here?

If you have come to personal and Biblical convictions by which you can
ANSWER the questions above, could I encourage you to do so for the benefit
of those seeking such convictions of their own?

These considerations also deal with those who are ALREADY MARRIED. Scripture
clearly guides those who are in unions which God has joined AND those who
are in unions which God has NOT joined. I would suggest that already
married situations be dealt with in a similar manner on a separate thread.
i.e. those who are seeking answers to ASK the questions, and those who have
formed scriptural convictions that answer the questions above to seek to
ANSWER those questions

Let us speak truth to one another that will encourage faithfulness to God,
to His Word and to marriage unions which He, Himself has joined.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] What is a new testament church?

2003-07-15 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Terry,
You wrote:You are asking too many questions at one time.  Anyone  trying to 
answer would have to write a book.  We are still working on speaking the 
truth in love ( with limited success).

Brother, I did not intend to ask anyone to answer all the questions, but 
just put them out as food for thought. If one grabs your attention, make 
some comments and let us purpose to have a meaningful and edifying 
conversation/discussion. I constantly need to be moved on in my 
understanding and appreciation of the things of God from where I am and what 
I currently understand to where He wants me to be and what He wants me to 
understand.  I'm learning that God often works that transformation through 
interaction with other saints in whom He is doing the very same work!

I look forward to hearing what God is doing/teaching in the lives of others 
of my brothers and sisters regarding the church.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus is Jehovah]

2003-07-15 Thread Bruce Woodford

Izzy wrote:
I agree--we are all in the ministry;
just with different callings.
Mine is mostly inside the home.
Gary Ottoson responded:
Maybe this is why BW wants to know what an NT church is--how would Izzy's 
qualify?
Actually, I think Izzy's kind of ministry qualifies well.  Most new covenant 
gatherings took place in homes!

Very little (If any) real ministry takes place with people staring at the 
backs of other people's heads! People tend to do such things in religious 
buildings but NOT in homes! In any sort of gathering in a home people 
naturally arrange themselves so they can look one another in the eye and 
converse with one another freely. It is in such contexts that real ministry 
takes place!

Let's hear more folks tell about ministry inside the home!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus is Jehovah]

2003-07-14 Thread Bruce Woodford

Izzy,
You wrote:
That's cool. Do you have to support a family on this non-charging system?
Do you have ordinary expenses, such as a
house/utilities/food/clothing/car/insurance/etc? It seems that the Lord has
put you in a blessed situation where you can live such a giving life.
Meanwhile, I enjoy our family system: I work for free and my husband works
a
regular job for a paycheck to support us. We haven't figured out any
better
way.
Yes, my wife and I have 5 children. Three are still at home. Actually this
summer, only one is at home and two are away on missions trips. Yes, we rent
a home, eat lots of food, wear clothes, pay utilities etc. But we have no
car and do not have any insurance of any kind. The Lord exercised my heart
many years ago regarding insurance with such passages as Prov.1:10-19;
6:1-5; 11:15; 17:18; 20:16; 22:26; 27:13; Is.30:1-7; 31:1-3; and II
Cor.6:14-7:1 . Instead we have assurance. Life assurance, fire assurance,
assurance of the provision of all our needs, investment assurance (when you
invest in eternal commodities i.e. getting people into the Word and the Word
into people) you are guaranteed returns of 30,60 or 100 FOLD! No investment
on earth can even touch returns of that magnitude! I love it when insurance
salesmen or investment counsellors call! I ask them if their plans can
even come close to the guaranteed returns of my investments?? Has opened
not a few conversations about eternity!

The only individual which God ever called a fool was one who invested
everything he had in a place he had to leave!

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus is Jehovah]

2003-07-09 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,
Re my comments on Christ in Hebrews 1, you asked:How does knowing this
change your daily life, Bruce?

Excellent question! I have maintained that no one believes anything which
they do not practice, or apply practically in their own lives. We can
PROFESS to believe many things and have a long list of lofty doctrines on a
Doctrinal Statement to which we subscribe, but how we live our lives from
day to day is our real doctrinal statement. That is the one the world
reads and that is the one on which every believer will be judged at the
Judgment seat of Christ.

The apostle Paul never wrote or subscribed to a written doctrinal
statement! Rather, he urged the Philippian saints to do nothing more and
nothing less than Those things, which they had both learned, and received,
and heard, and seen in him! Philippians 4:9 He also told the believers,
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. He had nothing to do
with orthodox doctrinal statements, but rather lived an orthodox
lifestyle!

So how does what I believe about Christ affect my daily life? I view myself
as simply a servant of His.
I learned from Ps.123:2 that a servant looks to the hand of his master. (I
believe for two things:)
(1)For his assignments (what tasks the master expects him to accomplish each
day.)
(2)For the supply of his needs.

For many years I was a self-employed business man who thought that he was
in charge. But the Lord forceably brought to my attention that if I was
His servant, I was not to be in charge at all but rather under authority
to my rightful Master!

I used to write invoices and charge for my services. But He began to show
me that when a Master assigns a servant to work, the servant does not look
to others for his needs, or write invoices to those whom the Master has
assigned him to serve! He rather looks to the hand of the one who assigned
the work in the first place and in so doing remembers His Lord's directive:
Freely ye have received, freely give! So for the last 4 years now, I have
sought to view the Lord Jesus Christ not only as my Savior, but also as my
Lord, my Master, and my Employer. Oh how faithful He has proven Himself to
be!!

Your brother in the service of the very Best of Masters,
Bruce
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Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus is Jehovah]

2003-07-07 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi!
Have just been observing Truth Talk the last week or so, so don't know how 
long this discussion has been going or what scriptures have been considered.

Hebrews 1 comes to mind in which are stated 24 facts about the Lord Jesus 
which I have  put in BOLD:
1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto 
the fathers by the prophets,
2  Hath in these last days spoken unto us by HIS SON, WHOM HE HATH APPOINTED 
HEIR OF ALL THINGS, BY WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS;
3  WHO BEING THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS GLORY, AND THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS 
PERSON, AND UPHOLDING ALL THINGS BY THE WORD OF HIS POWER, WHEN HE HAD BY 
HIMSELF PURGED OUR SINS, SAT DOWN ON THE RIGHT HAND OF THE MAJESTY ON HIGH;
4 BEING MADE SO MUCH BETTER THAN THE ANGELS, AS HE HATH BY INHERITANCE 
OBTAINED A MORE EXCELLENT NAME THAN THEY.
5  For unto which of the angels said he I WILL BE TO HIM A FATHER , AND HE 
SHALL BE TO ME A SON?
6  And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he 
saith, AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.
7  And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his 
ministers a flame of fire.
8  But unto the Son he saith, THY THRONE O GOD, IS FOR EVER AND EVER: A 
SCEPTRE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS IS THE SCEPTRE OF THY KINGDOM.
9  THOU HAST LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND HATED INIQUITY; THEREFORE GOD, EVEN 
THY GOD, HATH ANOINTED THEE WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE THY FELLOWS.
10 AND, THOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING HAST LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH; 
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORK OF THY HANDS.
11  They shall perish; but THOU REMAINEST;  and they all shall wax old as 
doth a garment;
12  And AS A VESTURE SHALT THOU FOLD THEM UP, and they shall be changed: BUT 
THOU ART THE SAME, AND THY YEARS SHALL NOT FAIL.

Bruce Woodford

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---BeginMessage---

DaveH,
Keep up the good work! You are about to discover the Trinity on your own! You see, we are both right because of the Triune nature of God! The very point is that Jesus is separate from the Father in person, but the same as the father in being, That is how the apparent paradox that we have seen over the last few posts is resolved!
Perry
From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

To: TruthTalk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus is Jehovah] 

Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2003 23:54:41 -0700 

 

 

 

 

  DavidH, 

  

  In John 8:54 (KJV): Jesus answered, If I honor myself my honor is nothing: 

  it is my Father that honoreth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God. 

  

  Here Jesus affirms that it is His Father whom the Jews worship. This also 

  contadicts your theory that Jesus and Jehovah of the old testament are the 

  same, just as does the previous verse I quoted. 

 

DAVEH: Consider the context of what Jesus was saying, and who he was speaking to, Perry. Vs 58 pretty much confirms that Jesus was the God of the OT the Jews worshipped 

 

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." 

 

note in the next verse, they understood him to claim to be the God of the OT, as they then 

 

"took up stones to cast at him:" 

 

  So, we have Jesus saying that the temples were His Father's house, and even 

  confirming that the Jews worshipped His Father. I guess 6000 years of Jews 

  and 2000 years of Christians are all wrong, and DavidH is right? (Look! 

  Everyone is marching out of step but my son!) 

  

  Perry 

  

  From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

  Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus is Jehovah 

  Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2003 06:54:27 -0700 

   

   

   

  Charles Perry Locke wrote: 

   

DavidH, 



You haved begged the question David. You have created a logical 

inconsistency, then when confronted on it, swept it under the rug! This 

  is 

typical of LDS theology, and yours in particular. Would you like to take 

  a 

second stab at explaining the inconsistency you have created? 

   

  DAVEH: No Perry, I don't see it as an inconsistency at all. Whatever 

  Jesus does is to glorify his Father..whether it be die on the cross, or 

  have an edifice built for him. The two are one in purposeto bring 

  to pass the immortality and 

  eternal life of man. 

   

Perry 



From: Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Jesus is Jehovah 

Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2003 23:15:25 -0700 

 

 

 

Charles Perry Locke wrote: 

 

  DaveH, 

  

  If Jesus was the God of the OT that the Jews worshiped (Jehovah), 

  then 

it 

  must be for Jesus that they built the temple(s). Yet Jesus calls

RE: [TruthTalk] Jesus is Jehovah]

2003-07-07 Thread Bruce Woodford

Hi Izzy,
Thanks for the welcome!
I think that Hebrews one is one of the most direct and forceful passages of
scripture regarding the deity of Christ!
He is the Creator of all things.
He is the express image of God's person.
He is to be worshipped.
When He folds up the heavens and the earth as a garment, He will remain
unchanged!

And yet, He is the One who purged our sins by making Himself of no
repuation, taking upon Him the form of a servant and was made in the
likeness of men, and being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself
unto death, even the death og the cross! Wherefore, God hath highly exalted
Him, and given Him a name that is above every name, that at the name of
Jesus, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that HE IS LORD, to the
glory of God, the Father!

Hallelujah! What a Savior!

Ixxy, you asked how I'd describe the trinity. I've never seen the trinity
in scripture! BUT, I do see how John describes the three who are one!
I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the
Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Your brother in Christ,
Bruce
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