RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Judy, You seem to be having an identity crisis here. jt: I can't imagine why you would think such a thing. JH: Sure you can. You put your words into a one to one relationship between yourself and the Bible. When Judy speaks we should really say the Bible speaks. I myself have fallen for this temptation more than once (I remember distinctly doing it in a post to David Miller – it was a display of the pride in my heart). Is the viewpoint below what the Bible says or what you perceive the Bible says? jt: You and Lance just love the word "perceive", it's where we hang all our differences - right? JH: Absolutely. You think with a distinct ‘modern’ mindset that comes straight out of the enlightenment. You are so steeped in it you are unable to climb the walls out. All you can claim is that it is your interpretation of what the Bible says. jt: That's all anyone who doesn't see it as you do is able to do so far as you are concenrned isn't it? JH: What one can claim is that they have a proper confidence in what they teach and think. This is not absolute certainty. It avoids such pride. It refuses to confuse God’s word with our word. What is hoped is that our words become a faithful interpretation of God’s words, that others may see through what we say to what God is saying to our hearts. You can go so far as saying that you believe the Holy Spirit revealed this interpretation to you through scripture. However, you can never divorce what is your interpretation from what may actually be being said. This notion seems to give you fits. It has been illustrated to you time and time again yet you cannot see it. jt: The same is true for you, Lance, TFT, Bill and whoever else is hanging onto your peculiar view of the incarnation. I have no problem with my vision and am not in the habit of taking fits. Wrong on both points. JH: You are correct here. Lance, TFT, Bill, and myself can never divorce what is their interpretation from what may actually be being said. There are no rules for you that are not rules for us as well. When I say that this notion seems to give you fits I am pointing out how incredibly hard it is for this truth to enter into your heart. Your modern mindset blocks every attempt to understanding on this important point. At some point in time you will have to learn how to read your Old Testament through the lens of Jesus Christ. jt: No problems with the OT Jonathan. God does not change. He says "I am the Lord, I change not" Neither does Jesus who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever" Looks to me as though the problem is yours rather than mine. JH: The above is my opinion of your reading of the OT. I believe you do not read it through the lens of Jesus Christ, nor even attempt to. It leads you to misrepresenting texts all over the place. Deuteronomy 28 and 29 must be understood in the light of who Jesus is and what He has done. If you read it with an Israeli mindset you will come out all wrong. If you choose a Christian mindset (and I pray that you do) you will finally come to understand the law and its place in our lives. jt: There is just one mindset with which to read God's Word and this is the "mind of the Spirit" which is the same as "the mind of Christ" I don't place myself or anyone else under the law. You really need to understand sin and it's ramifications in the lives of people Jonathan. Righteousness is something you do, it is not a concept of the incarnation. JH: Judy there are multiple mindsets with which to read God’s Word. Do not confuse your opinion with the ‘mind of Christ’. In the same way, I do not confuse my opinion with it. When you do that you will find yourself with a new Bible, one that still speaks today to our hearts, one that illuminates salvation, one that edifies instead of destroys. You will begin to worship the Word instead of the word. jt: I don't want or need a "new Bible" the ones I have speak to my heart all the time. I want to know God's ways and walk in them. What would make you imply that the Bible does not speak to my heart? This is really a presumptuous statement. JH: God’s grace is such that we may have our doctrine upside down and He still blesses and loves us. What I pray for is that your doctrines would come in line with who God is. I did not mean to imply that the Bible does not speak to your own heart, only that the speaking that it would do under a more faithful mindset would be incredible. Interestingly enough Izzy who is as mad as a hatter at me right now actually gave a compassionate reply to my statement below. Although she may agree with you doctrinally she is in a whole other class when it comes to compassion. I feel that you believe your do
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
DavidM:I don't hate him. I don't speak evil of him. My 'opinion' of his brightness or, lack of same, is simply based on many (many) hours of interviews & talks which have been televised over the last several years.Though it's not a high compliment, I'd pick him over our last Prime Minister. From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: June 09, 2004 18:55 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false > Lance gets political and says: > > From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere > > but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be > > the 'world leader' for four more years ... > > 1. Bush is not a fundamentalist. > > 2. Bush is not stupid. > > Please try to substantiate your characterizations or retract them. > > Also, why do you hate our President and speak evil of him? > > Peace be with you. > David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/9/2004 7:05:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is not a rumour. It was instituted in Bill C250. This is the section in our criminal code that speaks against hate crimes/propaganda. It amended the law to add that one may not incite hatred towards someone based upon their sexual orientation. The debate surrounding this obviously controversial law continues but from what I have seen it is limiting what people can say from the pulpit in case it is considered a message of hate that could potentially lead to a crime. It is a limitation on our freedom of speech. Thanks for the info, Jonathon. This is exactly what I fear is happening in this country. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/9/2004 4:53:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I said this: tad bit on the arrogant side of the ledger, me thinks. You might not agree with Izzy, being Canadian and all, but her defense of country (her country, not yours) is understandable. Apparently you think that you should be able to attack anyone's country without the risk of backlash by those who are "ignorant" of your sense of truth. Your response was this: If you want to read putdowns read Izzyâs posts John. To say that she has proceeded in an unchristian manner and has an unhealthy attitude in not a put down; it is an observation of how she has chosen to act on this forum. Observation: these are the specific words I call into question: One of my points to Izzy (I believe it was missed) was that in the past 4 months I have been on TT she has flitted around discussing the more superficial topics leaving the doctrinal debates for others. In this paragraph of thought, Izzy is on a par with a ditsy blond who "flits" about and is concerned with only the superficial. In the 4 months, this is all that you have noticed in regard to Linda. Your words, not mine. Those words have nothing to do with issues and everything to do with the supposed shallowness of Izzy. I am not going to debate my critique of your comments because, quite frankly, they are beyond debate. I believe your response to be below the belt and I do not care what Izzy does in response, as far as this post is concerned. I do not think Izzy is without fault, but, again, this post is addressed to you and your words. Don't mean to anger you -- just to point out that your notion of someone's dimwitted concerns for everything except country is not germane to any point of any discussion. I will leave it at that. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
You obviously aren’t from Missouri. Remember Harry Truman? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 7:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false In a message dated 6/9/2004 1:02:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OR it could just be the next best thing to a good punch in the nose. Izzy Easy does, girl. Peace not war. You have ruffled my feathers (yes, genuine chi chi chicken). John
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Izzy, John, It is not a rumour. It was instituted in Bill C250. This is the section in our criminal code that speaks against hate crimes/propaganda. It amended the law to add that one may not incite hatred towards someone based upon their sexual orientation. The debate surrounding this obviously controversial law continues but from what I have seen it is limiting what people can say from the pulpit in case it is considered a message of hate that could potentially lead to a crime. It is a limitation on our freedom of speech. If you go to www.google.ca (or com) and type in Bill c250 you will see a lot of information on it. Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 9:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false In a message dated 6/9/2004 1:16:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So why didn’t you answer my question—I really want to hear from you that this rumor was false. Izzy Actually I have heard the same thing from a number of pastors who insist that they know it to be true. Specifically, I have heard that it is unlawful to preach against gays , even in the pulpit. J
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/9/2004 1:16:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So why didnât you answer my questionâI really want to hear from you that this rumor was false. Izzy Actually I have heard the same thing from a number of pastors who insist that they know it to be true. Specifically, I have heard that it is unlawful to preach against gays , even in the pulpit. J
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/9/2004 1:02:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OR it could just be the next best thing to a good punch in the nose. Izzy Easy does, girl. Peace not war. You have ruffled my feathers (yes, genuine chi chi chicken). John
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Judy Taylor wrote: From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy has made many comments on the link between sin and illness. I believe her viewpoint to be completely unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those that live with illness regardless of the severity. jt: I agree Jonathan that sickness is hurtful and so is sin - it is hurtful to us and everyone around us. Judy is not the one making that connection Jonathan. Believe it or not it is Biblical. There would be no sickness but for sin and God Himself outlines the blessings that come from obedience and the curses that come through disobedience (which are every sickness and plague that can be named) in Deuteronomy 28 and Deuteronomy 29. Just because noone wants to accept this or talk about it today does not make it invalid. --- For what it's worth guys, you both have valid points. There was no sickness until there was sin. Put another way, sickness entered the picture because sin entered the picture. Sickness is plainly one of the penalties for sin. Having siad that, let me point out that not all sick people are sick because they are being punished for their sin. Some are. Some ain't. The man or woman with AIDS quite possibly got it in the process of sinning, but the baby born with aids got it because a parent sinned.. Miriam was stricken with leprosy for one reason. The blind man in John 9:3 was born blind for a totally different reason, so that God could be glorified when he was healed. Drunks destroy their liver through continual sin, but a lot of godly people get catarracts through no fault of their own. I am certain that Judy did not mean to imply that Jonathan was ill because of his sin, but because all illness came into being because we are all sinners, or in David Millers case, WERE sinners :-) . Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Hi Judy, You seem to be having an identity crisis here. Is the viewpoint below what the Bible says or what you perceive the Bible says? All you can claim is that it is your interpretation of what the Bible says. You can go so far as saying that you believe the Holy Spirit revealed this interpretation to you through scripture. However, you can never divorce what is your interpretation from what may actually be being said. This notion seems to give you fits. It has been illustrated to you time and time again yet you cannot see it. At some point in time you will have to learn how to read your Old Testament through the lens of Jesus Christ. Deuteronomy 28 and 29 must be understood in the light of who Jesus is and what He has done. If you read it with an Israeli mindset you will come out all wrong. If you choose a Christian mindset (and I pray that you do) you will finally come to understand the law and its place in our lives. When you do that you will find yourself with a new Bible, one that still speaks today to our hearts, one that illuminates salvation, one that edifies instead of destroys. You will begin to worship the Word instead of the word. Interestingly enough Izzy who is as mad as a hatter at me right now actually gave a compassionate reply to my statement below. Although she may agree with you doctrinally she is in a whole other class when it comes to compassion. I feel that you believe your doctrine below so much that it limits your ability to be loving; perhaps it is time for the truth. Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 9:17 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy has made many comments on the link between sin and illness. I believe her viewpoint to be completely unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those that live with illness regardless of the severity. jt: I agree Jonathan that sickness is hurtful and so is sin - it is hurtful to us and everyone around us. Judy is not the one making that connection Jonathan. Believe it or not it is Biblical. There would be no sickness but for sin and God Himself outlines the blessings that come from obedience and the curses that come through disobedience (which are every sickness and plague that can be named) in Deuteronomy 28 and Deuteronomy 29. Just because noone wants to accept this or talk about it today does not make it invalid. jonathan: This is an extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived with chronic illness for the last 16 years. You should see the posts that I have drafted in my head in response. The reason they have never seen the light of day is because I know it would not be wise to post them. This is one of my sacred cows. jt: Not unusual Jonathan; there is hardly a family alive who has not or is not touched by something chronic, either physically or behaviorally, and that inclues me and mine. I am still dealing with my own stuff but I find denial gets one nowhere. It's good to agree with God because only the truth will make any of us free - experientially free - not just in theoretically free. Judyt
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Hi John, I must disagree with you here; perhaps you haven’t yet read the entire conversation between Izzy and I. What I think has nothing to do with being Canadian. I would feel exactly the same way if I was American (My sister lives and works in America – I have close ties there). I do not think that anyone should attack another country but I definitely feel that we should be able to critique them. To critique, to have an opinion is not to attack. Surely you don’t disagree? As I mentioned to Izzy, if there are things said about Canada I am open to discuss them. There would be no spit fire defense, only dialogue. If you want to read putdowns read Izzy’s posts John. To say that she has proceeded in an unchristian manner and has an unhealthy attitude in not a put down; it is an observation of how she has chosen to act on this forum. Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 3:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false In a message dated 6/9/2004 5:58:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One of my points to Izzy (I believe it was missed) was that in the past 4 months I have been on TT she has flitted around discussing the more superficial topics leaving the doctrinal debates for others. Then when her country’s actions are called into question her rockets fire and she proceeds to attack in an unchristian manner (and of course justifies it by saying my manners are bad and that it is sin to question America and asks that God forgive my jealousy). This seems to me to be a very unhealthy attitude. A tad bit on the arrogant side of the ledger, me thinks. You might not agree with Izzy, being Canadian and all, but her defense of country (her country, not yours) is understandable. Apparently you think that you should be able to attack anyone's country without the risk of backlash by those who are "ignorant" of your sense of truth. If I decided to go after Cana dah , well, I would expect some spite fire defense from you. So lets chalk it up to what is natural and normal and leave off the putdowns. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Unreal David. You are far too smart for this kind of talk. How does calling someone sincere yet relatively stupid speaking evil or something even close to hate? To critique a person is to analyze their character and their actions. You may not agree with a critique (i.e. you do not believe that Bush has made stupid decisions) but there is no hate or evil here, merely an opinion. Jonathan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 6:56 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance gets political and says: > From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere > but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be > the 'world leader' for four more years ... 1. Bush is not a fundamentalist. 2. Bush is not stupid. Please try to substantiate your characterizations or retract them. Also, why do you hate our President and speak evil of him? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Hi Izzy, This is getting so tiring. The real vs false in the title comes into play here. Keep in mind that I did watch the unprovoked assault (I was home sick that day and watched it in real time as I happened to have CNN on). Keep in mind that I am probably closer distance wise to the location of the attack than you are. Keep in mind that 24 innocent Canadians were killed in the attacks as well. Keep in mind that I do not believe that the attack was just against America although it took place on American soil; it was against the Western world. Keep in mind that I include Canada in that critique. I never in any way, shape, form or fashion said any of my remarks on the incredible tragedy of 9/11 with a smirk. I never said that it was anything close to being ‘finally…what you had coming to you.’ Those are lies you have made up. You are mad at a perception in your own mind. My attitude has never approached anything evil, hateful, or disgusting. You owe me an apology for these lies. Either back them up with actual quotes from me or retract them. As I pointed out time and time again (with no response from you – did you even read my posts?) my problem with you is your rejection of critical thinking regarding the attacks. To say they were because of hatred does not answer the question. It begs another: Why is the Western world (personified by America) hated? Then you start getting somewhere. Am I dismissing your anger regarding the injustice of the attacks? No! It angers me as well. Rather I am saying that 2 and a half years later it is time to be reflective and learn from the tragedy. Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 4:27 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Just keep in mind, Jonathan, how you might feel if you watched an unprovoked assault on your nation with 3000 innocent Canadians killed by perverts who just hate you for being Canadians, and then someone said to you with a smirk, “Well, maybe now you will try to figure out why they didn’t like you. You finally got what you had coming to you.” You should expect an angry response to such an evil attitude. And then you have the NERVE to accuse me of confusing America with God and an “unhealthy attitude”??? You are a real piece of liberal work. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hughes Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 6:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Aye thank you Lance, However I am afraid that the message will fall on deaf ears or else you will be accused of making hateful, disgusting posts with slurs. Sigh. Her posts in the last half hour that I have been writing this continue in this vein. It is sad. One of my points to Izzy (I believe it was missed) was that in the past 4 months I have been on TT she has flitted around discussing the more superficial topics leaving the doctrinal debates for others. Then when her country’s actions are called into question her rockets fire and she proceeds to attack in an unchristian manner (and of course justifies it by saying my manners are bad and that it is sin to question America and asks that God forgive my jealousy). This seems to me to be a very unhealthy attitude. My opinion is as follows: It is good to love your country. It is good to be grateful to your country for the freedoms, opportunities and safety it provides. It is good to pray for and support your leaders. It is bad to confuse our country with God. It is bad to confuse prosperity with blessing. It is bad when patriotism keeps us from listening, from being whole. It is bad to not be able to listen to criticism. It is bad to refuse to listen when our sacred cow is being addressed. (note that when I switch to the bad here I intentionally switch from ‘your’ to ‘our’ in order to highlight that we are all in this together. I do not want any one to feel attacked here. You may also replace ‘good’ with Christian and ‘bad’ with unchristian.) That being said I do understand that when our sacred cows are being prodded it is a painful process. It is often easier to respond in anger (I know I have in times when my sacred cows have been poked. For example, Judy has made many comments on the link between sin and illness. I believe her viewpoint to be completely unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those that live with illness regardless of the severity. This is an extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived with chronic illness for the last 16 years. You should see the posts that I have drafted in my head in response. The reason they have never seen the light of day is because I know it would not be wise to post them. This is one of my sacred cows. What I need to do is to listen to Judy, to really hear what she is
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Lance gets political and says: > From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere > but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be > the 'world leader' for four more years ... 1. Bush is not a fundamentalist. 2. Bush is not stupid. Please try to substantiate your characterizations or retract them. Also, why do you hate our President and speak evil of him? Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Sigh of relief. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 2:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Izzy:Relax. We ain't been sucked down the vortex of sin's whirlpool just yet. I carry & sell a number of titles that would be described as critiquing homosexuality. One of Canada's leading authorities, who has paid dearly for his position, is a friend and regular shopper in our store. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 09, 2004 16:15 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false So why didn’t you answer my question—I really want to hear from you that this rumor was false. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 1:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Just two eh? Hardly a groundswell. Sort of like 'The Mouse that Roared' with Peter Sellers. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 09, 2004 15:31 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false So it is unanimous from the Canadians. (Why am I not surprised?) So why didn’t you answer my question—I really want to hear from you that this rumor was false. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 7:03 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Izzy:Read Jonathan's two excellent posts again. I fear that this 'religious spirit' has clouded yout judgment, at least when it comes to the US of A. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 09, 2004 08:45 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Perhaps only someone who was born and raised in this incredible nation, with the freedoms we enjoy, can understand why we are flag wavers. BTW, I heard a rumor that in Canada it is illegal to READ anything anti-homosexual. Is that possible??? That would certainly make the Bible illegal. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Follow up: When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and sift through the reasons why. On my first visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country. Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another. So, pray for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of God.. - Original Message - From: Jonathan Hughes To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 19:33 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false My, my, lots of political stews today. My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true. It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize something. (By the way I think it was to get the Western world to realize something, not just America). Do you honestly think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores? Why do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel? I have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my backpack or clothing. It was amazing the different reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with. Do you have any clue as to what your country is accountable for? Do you have any grasp of your country’s history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but vehemently hate you? When one insults President Bush, one insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love him. Your logic is ridiculous! If what you say is true this means that one cannot c
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Izzy:Relax. We ain't been sucked down the vortex of
sin's whirlpool just yet. I carry & sell a number of titles that would be
described as critiquing homosexuality. One of Canada's leading authorities, who
has paid dearly for his position, is a friend and regular shopper in our
store.
- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June 09, 2004 16:15
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of
Christ -- the real vs false
So
why didnt you answer my questionI really want to hear from you that this
rumor was false. Izzy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 1:48
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of
Christ -- the real vs false
Just two eh?
Hardly a groundswell. Sort of like 'The Mouse that Roared' with Peter
Sellers.
-
Original Message -
From: ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June 09,
2004 15:31
Subject: RE:
[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs
false
So
it is unanimous from the Canadians.
(Why am I not surprised?) So why didnt you answer my questionI
really want to hear from you that this rumor was false.
Izzy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 7:03
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of
Christ -- the real vs false
Izzy:Read
Jonathan's two excellent posts again. I fear that this 'religious spirit'
has clouded yout judgment, at least when it comes to the US of
A.
-
Original Message -
From: ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June 09,
2004 08:45
Subject: RE:
[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs
false
Perhaps
only someone who was born and raised in this incredible nation, with the
freedoms we enjoy, can understand why we are flag wavers. BTW, I heard a rumor that in
Canada it is illegal to READ
anything anti-homosexual. Is
that possible??? That would certainly make the Bible illegal. Izzy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:40
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of
Christ -- the real vs false
Follow up:
When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins
to become important to sort and sift through the reasons
why.
On my first
visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi
Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center
stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours)
covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion
here (cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in
your country.
Jesus (the
Jew) the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic
covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no
nation set above another.
So, pray
for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a
'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of God..
-
Original Message -
From: Jonathan
Hughes
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June 07,
2004 19:33
Subject: RE:
[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs
false
My, my, lots of
political stews today. My advice: actually listen to what others
think of America; it just may be
true. It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get
you to realize something. (By the way I think it was to get the
Western world to realize something, not just America).
Do you honestly
think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores?
Why do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they
travel? I have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was
taught very early to always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my
backpack or clothing. It was amazing the different reaction I
received as oppo
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Just keep in mind, Jonathan, how you might feel if you watched an unprovoked assault on your nation with 3000 innocent Canadians killed by perverts who just hate you for being Canadians, and then someone said to you with a smirk, “Well, maybe now you will try to figure out why they didn’t like you. You finally got what you had coming to you.” You should expect an angry response to such an evil attitude. And then you have the NERVE to accuse me of confusing America with God and an “unhealthy attitude”??? You are a real piece of liberal work. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hughes Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 6:52 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Aye thank you Lance, However I am afraid that the message will fall on deaf ears or else you will be accused of making hateful, disgusting posts with slurs. Sigh. Her posts in the last half hour that I have been writing this continue in this vein. It is sad. One of my points to Izzy (I believe it was missed) was that in the past 4 months I have been on TT she has flitted around discussing the more superficial topics leaving the doctrinal debates for others. Then when her country’s actions are called into question her rockets fire and she proceeds to attack in an unchristian manner (and of course justifies it by saying my manners are bad and that it is sin to question America and asks that God forgive my jealousy). This seems to me to be a very unhealthy attitude. My opinion is as follows: It is good to love your country. It is good to be grateful to your country for the freedoms, opportunities and safety it provides. It is good to pray for and support your leaders. It is bad to confuse our country with God. It is bad to confuse prosperity with blessing. It is bad when patriotism keeps us from listening, from being whole. It is bad to not be able to listen to criticism. It is bad to refuse to listen when our sacred cow is being addressed. (note that when I switch to the bad here I intentionally switch from ‘your’ to ‘our’ in order to highlight that we are all in this together. I do not want any one to feel attacked here. You may also replace ‘good’ with Christian and ‘bad’ with unchristian.) That being said I do understand that when our sacred cows are being prodded it is a painful process. It is often easier to respond in anger (I know I have in times when my sacred cows have been poked. For example, Judy has made many comments on the link between sin and illness. I believe her viewpoint to be completely unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those that live with illness regardless of the severity. This is an extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived with chronic illness for the last 16 years. You should see the posts that I have drafted in my head in response. The reason they have never seen the light of day is because I know it would not be wise to post them. This is one of my sacred cows. What I need to do is to listen to Judy, to really hear what she is saying without confusing it with the baggage I bring with it. For you Izzy perhaps I should concentrate on the devotion and love you have for your leaders. I respect your love for them. What I question is a love that strikes back in anger and stops conversation, fencing me off, refusing to listen and learn from other people’s opinions.) What I plead and beg of Izzy is to listen to what others have to say, to ask the tough questions we want to avoid. If it makes you angry this is often a sign of some sort of blockage. It is far too easy to confuse our anger with righteous anger. This means becoming vulnerable as the Spirit strips us of our mis-truths. In this way we can heal. In this way even our countries can heal. Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 7:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Follow up: When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and sift through the reasons why. On my first visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country. Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another. So, pray for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
So why didn’t you answer my question—I really want to hear from you that this rumor was false. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 1:48 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Just two eh? Hardly a groundswell. Sort of like 'The Mouse that Roared' with Peter Sellers. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 09, 2004 15:31 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false So it is unanimous from the Canadians. (Why am I not surprised?) So why didn’t you answer my question—I really want to hear from you that this rumor was false. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 7:03 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Izzy:Read Jonathan's two excellent posts again. I fear that this 'religious spirit' has clouded yout judgment, at least when it comes to the US of A. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 09, 2004 08:45 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Perhaps only someone who was born and raised in this incredible nation, with the freedoms we enjoy, can understand why we are flag wavers. BTW, I heard a rumor that in Canada it is illegal to READ anything anti-homosexual. Is that possible??? That would certainly make the Bible illegal. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Follow up: When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and sift through the reasons why. On my first visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country. Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another. So, pray for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of God.. - Original Message - From: Jonathan Hughes To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 19:33 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false My, my, lots of political stews today. My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true. It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize something. (By the way I think it was to get the Western world to realize something, not just America). Do you honestly think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores? Why do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel? I have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my backpack or clothing. It was amazing the different reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with. Do you have any clue as to what your country is accountable for? Do you have any grasp of your country’s history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but vehemently hate you? When one insults President Bush, one insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love him. Your logic is ridiculous! If what you say is true this means that one cannot critique anybody as that would mean critiquing everyone that is even faintly involved with them (and by faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they look like. I doubt you are claiming an actual relationship with Bush). For someone who refused to enter into theological debates you sure are willing to enter the political arena. Which do you care about more? Which is worth discussion more? Is it more important to think rightly about your country or about God? Do you realize that God is not American (or Canadian or any other nationality)? Do you confuse America’s prosperity with God’s blessing? Do you realize (even faintly, c’mon throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is to be unapologetically anti-Christian? >From some of
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
I believe God still forgives venial sins. Iz You ended a sentence with a preposition in spite of your edumucation.
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
OR it could just be the next best thing to a good punch in the nose. Izzy To act out a feeling of offense is a manipulative effort at silencing the opposition. A friend JDavid
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Just two eh? Hardly a groundswell. Sort of
like 'The Mouse that Roared' with Peter Sellers.
- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June 09, 2004 15:31
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of
Christ -- the real vs false
So
it is unanimous from the Canadians.
(Why am I not surprised?) So why didnt you answer my questionI really
want to hear from you that this rumor was false.
Izzy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 7:03
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of
Christ -- the real vs false
Izzy:Read
Jonathan's two excellent posts again. I fear that this 'religious spirit' has
clouded yout judgment, at least when it comes to the US of
A.
-
Original Message -
From: ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June 09,
2004 08:45
Subject: RE:
[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs
false
Perhaps
only someone who was born and raised in this incredible nation, with the
freedoms we enjoy, can understand why we are flag wavers. BTW, I heard a rumor that in
Canada it is illegal to READ
anything anti-homosexual. Is
that possible??? That would certainly make the Bible illegal. Izzy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:40
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of
Christ -- the real vs false
Follow up:
When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to
become important to sort and sift through the reasons
why.
On my first
visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi
Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center
stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours)
covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here
(cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado,
Atlanta) I
noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country.
Jesus (the
Jew) the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic
covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation
set above another.
So, pray for
your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a
'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of God..
-
Original Message -
From: Jonathan
Hughes
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June 07,
2004 19:33
Subject: RE:
[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs
false
My, my, lots of
political stews today. My advice: actually listen to what others
think of America; it just may be
true. It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get
you to realize something. (By the way I think it was to get the
Western world to realize something, not just America).
Do you honestly
think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores? Why
do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel? I
have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was taught very early to
always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my backpack or clothing. It
was amazing the different reaction I received as opposed to the Americans
I traveled with. Do you have any clue as to what your country is
accountable for? Do you have any grasp of your countrys history (or
do you think like Judy that the Dark Ages were actually dark?) and why so
many people not only dislike you but vehemently hate
you?
When one insults
President Bush, one insults President Bush not you or those that admire
and love him. Your logic is ridiculous! If what you say is
true this means that one cannot critique anybody as that would mean
critiquing everyone that is even faintly involved with them (and by
faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they look like. I
doubt you are claiming an actual relationship with
Bush).
For someone who
refused to enter into theological debates you sure are willing to enter
the political arena. Which do you care about more? Which is
worth discussion more? Is it more important to think rightly about
your country or about God? Do you realize that God is not American
(or Canadian or any ot
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
So it is unanimous from the Canadians. (Why am I not surprised?) So why didn’t you answer my question—I really want to hear from you that this rumor was false. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 7:03 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Izzy:Read Jonathan's two excellent posts again. I fear that this 'religious spirit' has clouded yout judgment, at least when it comes to the US of A. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 09, 2004 08:45 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Perhaps only someone who was born and raised in this incredible nation, with the freedoms we enjoy, can understand why we are flag wavers. BTW, I heard a rumor that in Canada it is illegal to READ anything anti-homosexual. Is that possible??? That would certainly make the Bible illegal. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Follow up: When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and sift through the reasons why. On my first visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country. Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another. So, pray for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of God.. - Original Message - From: Jonathan Hughes To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 19:33 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false My, my, lots of political stews today. My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true. It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize something. (By the way I think it was to get the Western world to realize something, not just America). Do you honestly think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores? Why do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel? I have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my backpack or clothing. It was amazing the different reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with. Do you have any clue as to what your country is accountable for? Do you have any grasp of your country’s history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but vehemently hate you? When one insults President Bush, one insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love him. Your logic is ridiculous! If what you say is true this means that one cannot critique anybody as that would mean critiquing everyone that is even faintly involved with them (and by faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they look like. I doubt you are claiming an actual relationship with Bush). For someone who refused to enter into theological debates you sure are willing to enter the political arena. Which do you care about more? Which is worth discussion more? Is it more important to think rightly about your country or about God? Do you realize that God is not American (or Canadian or any other nationality)? Do you confuse America’s prosperity with God’s blessing? Do you realize (even faintly, c’mon throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is to be unapologetically anti-Christian? >From some of your previous posts praising your country and its leaders one would think that you think that to be American (to agree/accept and live under the Bill of Rights and the American dream) is to be Christian. Enough politics for me. Either change the name of the thread or actually begin discussing the Mediation of Christ. Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance, Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another ar
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/9/2004 11:41:24 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John: Not one of my 'opinions' is inspired. They are just that, opinions. I'd always want for them to be subjected to the severest critique. Great. My here is done. Back to the job site. David, John
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/9/2004 11:53:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You ended a sentence with a preposition in spite of your edumucation. I know AND IT FELT GOOD DOING IT 11 jds
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/9/2004 5:58:38 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One of my points to Izzy (I believe it was missed) was that in the past 4 months I have been on TT she has flitted around discussing the more superficial topics leaving the doctrinal debates for others. Then when her countryâs actions are called into question her rockets fire and she proceeds to attack in an unchristian manner (and of course justifies it by saying my manners are bad and that it is sin to question America and asks that God forgive my jealousy). This seems to me to be a very unhealthy attitude. A tad bit on the arrogant side of the ledger, me thinks. You might not agree with Izzy, being Canadian and all, but her defense of country (her country, not yours) is understandable. Apparently you think that you should be able to attack anyone's country without the risk of backlash by those who are "ignorant" of your sense of truth. If I decided to go after Cana dah , well, I would expect some spite fire defense from you. So lets chalk it up to what is natural and normal and leave off the putdowns. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
You ended a sentence with a preposition in spite of your edumucation. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 09, 2004 14:45 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Now, here with this post, I very much agree with Lance. We (the US) are not a "Christian nation." We are a nation with a whole bunch of Christians. The religious tenets that formed the foundation of our nation are, without question, being eroded. And, if the trend does not stop, there will come a time when this nation will become an enemy to the cause of Christ. We need to be careful wedding the flag and the cross. And don't get me wrong. I as red necked as they come when concerns this country -- but we ARE citizens of another world, not this onesomething I must continually remind myself of.JohnIn a message dated 6/9/2004 4:42:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Follow up: When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and sift through the reasons why. On my first visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country. Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came to fulfill, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another. So, pray for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of God..
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Now, here with this post, I very much agree with Lance. We (the US) are not a "Christian nation." We are a nation with a whole bunch of Christians. The religious tenets that formed the foundation of our nation are, without question, being eroded. And, if the trend does not stop, there will come a time when this nation will become an enemy to the cause of Christ. We need to be careful wedding the flag and the cross. And don't get me wrong. I as red necked as they come when concerns this country -- but we ARE citizens of another world, not this onesomething I must continually remind myself of. John In a message dated 6/9/2004 4:42:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Follow up: When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and sift through the reasons why. On my first visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country. Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came to fulfill, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another. So, pray for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of God..
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Replying (this time) to: JDavid:Point well made and, it didn't even make me angry. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 09, 2004 14:28 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false In a message dated 6/9/2004 2:56:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John: Not one of my 'opinions' is inspired. They are just that, opinions. I'd always want for them to be subjected to the severest critique.Hope you understood what I was pointing to -- that opinion is opinion. the problem with disagreeing on issues of substance (and that is at the heart of the existence of TT ) is that we all tend to get a little testy about the others opinion. To call Bush "stupid" is, in fact, to insult all those who believe in his leadership and character. To act out a feeling of offense is a manipulative effort at silencing the opposition. Both sides are wrong, as I see it, at the same time. Yet both sides speak as if inspired and, therefore, right without and beyond debate. Learning to disagree with an intelligent emotional bias that is rooted in a caring for the other individual is something we should all share as a point of community on this list. I believe the Lord in I Co 13 put it this way: love . does not seek its own." A friendJDavid
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/9/2004 2:56:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: John: Not one of my 'opinions' is inspired. They are just that, opinions. I'd always want for them to be subjected to the severest critique. Hope you understood what I was pointing to -- that opinion is opinion. the problem with disagreeing on issues of substance (and that is at the heart of the existence of TT ) is that we all tend to get a little testy about the others opinion. To call Bush "stupid" is, in fact, to insult all those who believe in his leadership and character. To act out a feeling of offense is a manipulative effort at silencing the opposition. Both sides are wrong, as I see it, at the same time. Yet both sides speak as if inspired and, therefore, right without and beyond debate. Learning to disagree with an intelligent emotional bias that is rooted in a caring for the other individual is something we should all share as a point of community on this list. I believe the Lord in I Co 13 put it this way: love . does not seek its own." A friend JDavid
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Judyt:An aside re Deut 28,29. I believe some of this has been previously addressed but, would you continue to stone a recalcitrant youth? etc. Does Jesus' birth,baptism, temptation, life, death, resurrection, ascension, and ongoing Mediation include the subject at hand whatsoever? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 09, 2004 09:16 Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false From: "Jonathan Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judy has made many comments on the link between sin and illness. I believe her viewpoint to be completely unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those that live with illness regardless of the severity. jt: I agree Jonathan that sickness is hurtful and so is sin - it is hurtful to us and everyone around us. Judy is not the one making that connection Jonathan. Believe it or not it is Biblical. There would be no sickness but for sin and God Himself outlines the blessings that come from obedience and the curses that come through disobedience (which are every sickness and plague that can be named) in Deuteronomy 28 and Deuteronomy 29. Just because noone wants to accept this or talk about it today does not make it invalid. jonathan: This is an extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived with chronic illness for the last 16 years. You should see the posts that I have drafted in my head in response. The reason they have never seen the light of day is because I know it would not be wise to post them. This is one of my sacred cows. jt: Not unusual Jonathan; there is hardly a family alive who has not or is not touched by something chronic, either physically or behaviorally, and that inclues me and mine. I am still dealing with my own stuff but I find denial gets one nowhere. It's good to agree with God because only the truth will make any of us free - experientially free - not just in theoretically free. Judyt
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Izzy:Read Jonathan's two excellent posts again. I
fear that this 'religious spirit' has clouded yout judgment, at least when it
comes to the US of A.
- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June 09, 2004 08:45
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of
Christ -- the real vs false
Perhaps
only someone who was born and raised in this incredible nation, with the
freedoms we enjoy, can understand why we are flag wavers. BTW, I heard a rumor that in
Canada it is illegal to READ
anything anti-homosexual. Is that
possible??? That would certainly make the Bible illegal. Izzy
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:40
AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of
Christ -- the real vs false
Follow up: When
a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become
important to sort and sift through the reasons why.
On my first
visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi
Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center stage,
lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the
backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)".
During subsequent visits (California,
Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in
your country.
Jesus (the Jew)
the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He
did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation set above
another.
So, pray for
your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious
spirit'. I believe that this is not of God..
-
Original Message -
From: Jonathan Hughes
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June 07,
2004 19:33
Subject: RE:
[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs
false
My, my, lots of
political stews today. My advice: actually listen to what others think
of America; it just may be
true. It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you
to realize something. (By the way I think it was to get the Western
world to realize something, not just America).
Do you honestly
think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores? Why
do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel? I
have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was taught very early to
always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my backpack or clothing. It
was amazing the different reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I
traveled with. Do you have any clue as to what your country is
accountable for? Do you have any grasp of your countrys history (or
do you think like Judy that the Dark Ages were actually dark?) and why so
many people not only dislike you but vehemently hate
you?
When one insults
President Bush, one insults President Bush not you or those that admire and
love him. Your logic is ridiculous! If what you say is true this
means that one cannot critique anybody as that would mean critiquing
everyone that is even faintly involved with them (and by faintly involved I
mean someone who knows what they look like. I doubt you are claiming
an actual relationship with Bush).
For someone who
refused to enter into theological debates you sure are willing to enter the
political arena. Which do you care about more? Which is worth
discussion more? Is it more important to think rightly about your
country or about God? Do you realize that God is not American (or
Canadian or any other nationality)? Do you confuse Americas
prosperity with Gods blessing? Do you realize (even faintly, cmon
throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is to be
unapologetically anti-Christian? >From some of your previous posts
praising your country and its leaders one would think that you think that to
be American (to agree/accept and live under the Bill of Rights and the
American dream) is to be Christian.
Enough politics for
me. Either change the name of the thread or actually begin discussing
the Mediation of Christ.
Jonathan
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of
ShieldsFamilySent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:43
PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of
Christ -- the real vs false
Lance,
Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant
Canadian insult. S
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Aye thank you Lance, However I am afraid that the message will fall on deaf ears or else you will be accused of making hateful, disgusting posts with slurs. Sigh. Her posts in the last half hour that I have been writing this continue in this vein. It is sad. One of my points to Izzy (I believe it was missed) was that in the past 4 months I have been on TT she has flitted around discussing the more superficial topics leaving the doctrinal debates for others. Then when her country’s actions are called into question her rockets fire and she proceeds to attack in an unchristian manner (and of course justifies it by saying my manners are bad and that it is sin to question America and asks that God forgive my jealousy). This seems to me to be a very unhealthy attitude. My opinion is as follows: It is good to love your country. It is good to be grateful to your country for the freedoms, opportunities and safety it provides. It is good to pray for and support your leaders. It is bad to confuse our country with God. It is bad to confuse prosperity with blessing. It is bad when patriotism keeps us from listening, from being whole. It is bad to not be able to listen to criticism. It is bad to refuse to listen when our sacred cow is being addressed. (note that when I switch to the bad here I intentionally switch from ‘your’ to ‘our’ in order to highlight that we are all in this together. I do not want any one to feel attacked here. You may also replace ‘good’ with Christian and ‘bad’ with unchristian.) That being said I do understand that when our sacred cows are being prodded it is a painful process. It is often easier to respond in anger (I know I have in times when my sacred cows have been poked. For example, Judy has made many comments on the link between sin and illness. I believe her viewpoint to be completely unbiblical and extremely hurtful to those that live with illness regardless of the severity. This is an extremely touchy subject for me as I have lived with chronic illness for the last 16 years. You should see the posts that I have drafted in my head in response. The reason they have never seen the light of day is because I know it would not be wise to post them. This is one of my sacred cows. What I need to do is to listen to Judy, to really hear what she is saying without confusing it with the baggage I bring with it. For you Izzy perhaps I should concentrate on the devotion and love you have for your leaders. I respect your love for them. What I question is a love that strikes back in anger and stops conversation, fencing me off, refusing to listen and learn from other people’s opinions.) What I plead and beg of Izzy is to listen to what others have to say, to ask the tough questions we want to avoid. If it makes you angry this is often a sign of some sort of blockage. It is far too easy to confuse our anger with righteous anger. This means becoming vulnerable as the Spirit strips us of our mis-truths. In this way we can heal. In this way even our countries can heal. Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 7:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Follow up: When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and sift through the reasons why. On my first visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country. Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another. So, pray for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of God.. - Original Message - From: Jonathan Hughes To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 19:33 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false My, my, lots of political stews today. My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true. It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize something. (By the way I think it was to get the Western world to realize something, not just America). Do you honestly think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores? Why do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel? I have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) an
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Perhaps only someone who was born and raised in this incredible nation, with the freedoms we enjoy, can understand why we are flag wavers. BTW, I heard a rumor that in Canada it is illegal to READ anything anti-homosexual. Is that possible??? That would certainly make the Bible illegal. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2004 5:40 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Follow up: When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and sift through the reasons why. On my first visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country. Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another. So, pray for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of God.. - Original Message - From: Jonathan Hughes To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 19:33 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false My, my, lots of political stews today. My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true. It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize something. (By the way I think it was to get the Western world to realize something, not just America). Do you honestly think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores? Why do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel? I have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my backpack or clothing. It was amazing the different reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with. Do you have any clue as to what your country is accountable for? Do you have any grasp of your country’s history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but vehemently hate you? When one insults President Bush, one insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love him. Your logic is ridiculous! If what you say is true this means that one cannot critique anybody as that would mean critiquing everyone that is even faintly involved with them (and by faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they look like. I doubt you are claiming an actual relationship with Bush). For someone who refused to enter into theological debates you sure are willing to enter the political arena. Which do you care about more? Which is worth discussion more? Is it more important to think rightly about your country or about God? Do you realize that God is not American (or Canadian or any other nationality)? Do you confuse America’s prosperity with God’s blessing? Do you realize (even faintly, c’mon throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is to be unapologetically anti-Christian? >From some of your previous posts praising your country and its leaders one would think that you think that to be American (to agree/accept and live under the Bill of Rights and the American dream) is to be Christian. Enough politics for me. Either change the name of the thread or actually begin discussing the Mediation of Christ. Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance, Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to insult him because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically pro-American). When you insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone else who admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for our nation. Perhaps Torrance hasn’t taught you any better manners than that? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Follow up: When a sufficient number (?) of people (countries) dislike you it begins to become important to sort and sift through the reasons why. On my first visit to a Christian Booksellers meeting (Texas) I attended a performance by Sandi Patti (a then well known Christian performer). When she appeared center stage, lit by a single spot, regailed in white, a massive flag (yours) covering the backdrop, I remember thinking: "there's a little confusion here (cross/flag)". During subsequent visits (California, Colorado, Atlanta) I noted that RELIGION ABOUNDS in your country. Jesus (the Jew) the second Adam came to fulfil, in obedience, the Abrahamic covenant. He did this for all of humankind in all of history, with no nation set above another. So, pray for your leaders, be 'good citizens' but, please don't participate in a 'religious spirit'. I believe that this is not of God.. - Original Message - From: Jonathan Hughes To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 19:33 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false My, my, lots of political stews today. My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true. It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize something. (By the way I think it was to get the Western world to realize something, not just America). Do you honestly think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores? Why do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel? I have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my backpack or clothing. It was amazing the different reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with. Do you have any clue as to what your country is accountable for? Do you have any grasp of your countrys history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but vehemently hate you? When one insults President Bush, one insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love him. Your logic is ridiculous! If what you say is true this means that one cannot critique anybody as that would mean critiquing everyone that is even faintly involved with them (and by faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they look like. I doubt you are claiming an actual relationship with Bush). For someone who refused to enter into theological debates you sure are willing to enter the political arena. Which do you care about more? Which is worth discussion more? Is it more important to think rightly about your country or about God? Do you realize that God is not American (or Canadian or any other nationality)? Do you confuse Americas prosperity with Gods blessing? Do you realize (even faintly, cmon throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is to be unapologetically anti-Christian? >From some of your previous posts praising your country and its leaders one would think that you think that to be American (to agree/accept and live under the Bill of Rights and the American dream) is to be Christian. Enough politics for me. Either change the name of the thread or actually begin discussing the Mediation of Christ. Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:43 PMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance, Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to insult him because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically pro-American). When you insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone else who admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for our nation. Perhaps Torrance hasnt taught you any better manners than that? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
John: Not one of my 'opinions' is inspired. They are just that, opinions. I'd always want for them to be subjected to the severest critique. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 08, 2004 21:12 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false In a message dated 6/8/2004 9:25:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Izzy:Sorry, God did not put GWB into office you did.An opinion no more inspired than Izzy's.John
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/8/2004 10:07:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Surprise, my furriner brother! You have no idea just how often I have done that, mostly with posts from you and G. It's not that I have anything against y'all. I just cannot comprehend how either of you think. Do you by any chance write poetry? Terry Terry's high regard for poetry is evident with this timely question. :) John
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/8/2004 9:25:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Izzy:Sorry, God did not put GWB into office you did. An opinion no more inspired than Izzy's. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Terry: Sorry, Terry what I said IS what the Bible teaches (as I see it). - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 08, 2004 13:28 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance Muir wrote: Izzy:Sorry, God did not put GWB into office you did.=Sorry Lance. That is not what the Bible teaches. Our votes are just a formality.Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Lance Muir wrote: Izzy:Sorry, God did not put GWB into office you did. = Sorry Lance. That is not what the Bible teaches. Our votes are just a formality. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Terry:I do not but, it is my understanding that G does. No doubt 'bout it though 3 out 5 of my posts are unnecessarily difficult to read. - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 08, 2004 13:06 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Terry:Why not take the advice to you gave to me? Just delete and, move on to matters that you estimate to be worthy of placing fingers on a keyboard? LanceSurprise, my furriner brother! You have no idea just how often I have done that, mostly with posts from you and G. It's not that I have anything against y'all. I just cannot comprehend how either of you think. Do you by any chance write poetry?Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Terry:Why not take the advice to you gave to me? Just delete and, move on to matters that you estimate to be worthy of placing fingers on a keyboard? Lance Surprise, my furriner brother! You have no idea just how often I have done that, mostly with posts from you and G. It's not that I have anything against y'all. I just cannot comprehend how either of you think. Do you by any chance write poetry? Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Izzy:Sorry, God did not put GWB into office you
did.
- Original Message -
From:
ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June 08, 2004 10:55
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of
Christ -- the real vs false
Lance,
Perhaps Powell or Cheyney would have made better
Presidents in some way or another. But God knew that we would need a President
with the (male apparatus) to make war on Terrorism. Thanks for the comments.
BTW,
I like Bush better than either of them.
But GW is not nearly Conservative enough for me. Often the policies he pushes through
upset me. But I'm not one to miss
the forest for the trees.
Izzy
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lance
MuirSent: Tuesday, June 08,
2004 2:48 AMTo:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of
Christ -- the real vs false
Izzy: Just an
observation based on public performance.You made it an insult. Powell or
Cheyney would have made better Presidents than Bush.
Just a note on
Chretien (our now former Prime Minister):He probably couldn't have held his
own in any debate with your current President.
Lance
From: ShieldsFamily
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: June 07,
2004 15:43
Subject: RE:
[TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs
false
Lance,
Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant
Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his
academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to
insult him because they disagree with his policies (which are
unapologetically pro-American).
When you insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone else who
admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for our
nation. Perhaps Torrance hasnt taught
you any better manners than that? Izzy
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lance Muir
From someone who is
likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to
be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been
examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Oh, did Rush say that, too? (Happy thought!) :-) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 2:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Izzy:Too much Rush. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 16:03 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance, your political astuteness is dwarfed only by your humility. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 9:34 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance Muir wrote: J&T: How 'bout a website hosted by y'all. People would write outlining the 'teaching' in question. Then, kind of like Ebert & Roeper, (thumbs up/down) you could pronounce on it to the benefit of the world at large. Or, on a scale of 1-5 horse apples, you could work with a picture of a horse dispensing apples on the aforementioned 'teaching' Have I ever mentioned what a privilege it is for me (us?) to read the musings of two such Bibically informed (?)persons as yourselves? === What a great idea! Send me your tithes and offerings and we will get right on it. If everyone else is making a buck on Jesus, we might as well jump in too. Terry :-)
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Lance, Perhaps Powell or Cheyney would have made better Presidents in some way or another. But God knew that we would need a President with the (male apparatus) to make war on Terrorism. Thanks for the comments. BTW, I like Bush better than either of them. But GW is not nearly Conservative enough for me. Often the policies he pushes through upset me. But I'm not one to miss the forest for the trees. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2004 2:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Izzy: Just an observation based on public performance.You made it an insult. Powell or Cheyney would have made better Presidents than Bush. Just a note on Chretien (our now former Prime Minister):He probably couldn't have held his own in any debate with your current President. Lance From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 15:43 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance, Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to insult him because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically pro-American). When you insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone else who admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for our nation. Perhaps Torrance hasn’t taught you any better manners than that? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Judyt:There are times when you amaze me! How you can, on occasion, misunderstand everything I've written, is simply beyond me. Have a good day. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 08, 2004 09:46 Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judyt: Happily Judy, the world is larger than your perception or familiarity. jt: The philosophy of my unbelieving family overseas exactly Lance and this is one of the reasons why I left at such a young age; they literally reverence broadmindedness.. and have the same liberal views about religion and the USA and it's leadership as you and Jonathan articulate here on the TT list. 'Spin' Judy? We've all got a 'spin'! That is the interpretation that we place on the Scriptures we quote. As you quote more than most I'd suggest we're privy to your 'spin' more than most. jt: No Lance, we don't all have spin. Spin is a reality out there in the world where politics is the art of compromise and manipulation is the name of the game. I don't play that game anymore but I recognize it because I've been there and done that. I am now living another reality in which there is a "spirit of Truth" and a "spirit of error" - I have found the pearl of great price. 'Fool' Judy? I don't think that Terry is a fool any more than I'd think it of you. jt: Then why did you speak it of him or George W. Bush (whichever one it was intended for)? Do you realize that "by our words we are justified, and by our words we are condemned?" My perception (though it's God's and not mine that matters) of you (and Terry) is: faithful servants of our Lord who operate, largely, within a biblicist and fundamentalist framework. It's a comfortable though somewhat restrictive and moralistic way of thinking and speaking. But, if it 'works' for you then keep at it. jt: Would you also say that the Lord has other "faithful servants" who operate outside of a basic Biblical framework and who are loose and immoral in their way of thinking and speaking Lance? From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 08, 2004 08:07 Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance Muir wrote to Terry: My hero is neither. From one 'leading authority' to another allow me to suggest that you check out TFT. He's considered by some, to be the leading theologian in the English speaking world for the 20 century. jt: So? Who are these "some?" They must not be well known or read because I had never heard of TFT until you introduced him on TT - also what does this have to do with anything since TFT adds a different spin to the Word of Truth? Jesus is the one building His Church. From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em. jt: Just like your mentor you don't take Jesus' words seriously do you Lance? What does Jesus say about calling your brother "Raca!" (Matthew 5:22) Referring to a professing believer as "stupid or fool" is the same thing. We are told in Romans 13:1 and other places that God lifts up and God brings down. Our calling as believers is to "pray for them" rather than express uninformed opinions about them lest like Job (see Job 38:2) we be called on the carpet and confronted for our own sin of darkening counsel by words without knowledge. When one's opinions function with the vacuity that yours do I read them with a smile. I don't need to hit delete. jt: There you go again Lance - I see the truth of God coming from Terry in a spirit of love.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Terry:Thanks for illustrating biblicism and fundamentalism in one fell swoop. No indeed, I wouldn't think that you would wish to read TFT any further than you have. As you've misread him so far its probably best to leave well enough (bad enough?) alone. JUST A NOTE AS I TRUST THAT SOME FURTHER REAL CONVERSATION MIGHT TAKE PLACE. YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE READ/AGREED WITH/DISAGREED WITH OR, EVEN HAVE HEARD OF TFT IN ORDER TO SERVE GOD WELL AND FAITHFULLY FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIVES. WERE YOU TO DISCOVER IN RETROSPECT THAT HE DID INDEED SPEAK ACCURATELY OF GOD AND THE GOSPEL YOU STILL DON'T NEED TO HAVE KNOWN THAT. Terry:Why not take the advice to you gave to me? Just delete and, move on to matters that you estimate to be worthy of placing fingers on a keyboard? Lance - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 08, 2004 08:33 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 6/7/2004 6:27:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If it offends you to hear that (in my opinion) part of what Torrance is serving as meat is in reality nothing more than horse apples, I suggest you learn to poke the delete key at least once. This is a discussion group,you know.. TerryAnything specific in mind, Terry?John>From what little I have read, I get a picture of God painted by Torrance. In this picture we have a creator wringing His hands and desperatly hoping that everyone will see the light. A God who, even though He condemns a person to eternal torment, still loves that person deeply and is all broken up about losing one of His creations. Torrance is on target in some areas, but this one dimension diety negates anything else he has to say that would interest me. The God I know, knew from the get go that most would be lost. He is not surprised and is not mourning. If He hates sin, by extention He must at some point hate the unrepentant sinner, or He would simply remove the penalty for unrightessness instead of consigning said sinner to eternal damnation. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Judyt: Happily Judy, the world is larger than your perception or familiarity. 'Spin' Judy? We've all got a 'spin'! That is the interpretation that we place on the Scriptures we quote. As you quote more than most I'd suggest we're privy to your 'spin' more than most. 'Fool' Judy? I don't think that Terry is a fool any more than I'd think it of you. My perception (though it's God's and not mine that matters) of you (and Terry) is: faithful servants of our Lord who operate, largely, within a biblicist and fundamentalist framework. It's a comfortable though somewhat restrictive and moralistic way of thinking and speaking. But, if it 'works' for you then keep at it. Lance - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 08, 2004 08:07 Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance Muir wrote to Terry: My hero is neither. From one 'leading authority' to another allow me to suggest that you check out TFT. He's considered by some, to be the leading theologian in the English speaking world for the 20 century. jt: So? Who are these "some?" They must not be well known or read because I had never heard of TFT until you introduced him on TT - also what does this have to do with anything since TFT adds a different spin to the Word of Truth? Jesus is the one building His Church. From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em. jt: Just like your mentor you don't take Jesus' words seriously do you Lance? What does Jesus say about calling your brother "Raca!" (Matthew 5:22) Referring to a professing believer as "stupid or fool" is the same thing. We are told in Romans 13:1 and other places that God lifts up and God brings down. Our calling as believers is to "pray for them" rather than express uninformed opinions about them lest like Job (see Job 38:2) we be called on the carpet and confronted for our own sin of darkening counsel by words without knowledge. When one's opinions function with the vacuity that yours do I read them with a smile. I don't need to hit delete. jt: There you go again Lance - I see the truth of God coming from Terry in a spirit of love.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 6/7/2004 7:42:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I take offense and find it a bit smug of you to make the comment above. It is easy to sit in your armchair, far removed from the action, and call someone stupid. Bush has had a tough row to hoe, and I think he has done better than most others would have. I shudder to think how 9/11 and the days that followed would have been handled by Al Gore, or, heaven forbid, by John Kerry!!! Call me what you will...I will take a Bush over a Gore or a Kerry ANY day. Perry, not as moderator What is a fundalmentalist, anyway? I can tell you one thing (and then I will keep quiet on politics), the reason I will never again vote Democrat has everything to do with the fact that this political party stands for absolutely nothing that anyone (Christian) on this list stands for in terms of moral imperative and political freedoms. Do we realize that the people who want to compromise with the Jihad Muslims of this world, the liberal left, are the very people the Jihad Muslims dispise the most because of their gross immorality??!!! Bush has finally said, you have killed well over 4300 of our people over the last 17 years -- and enough is enough. We had just finished 8 years with a President who literally governed with his pants down during office hours, a president who had made the decision to cut the military, hoping to live and let live -- and they came after us anyway. 9-11 was almost entirely planned on Clinton's watch, not Bush's. Let's not forget, that Reagan one day told Kadafy, stop training the hijackers. Kadafy paid no attention, and Reagan sent several F14's, bombed Kadafy's home, killed one of his sons and forced a very gutless Omar into a five year exile. Standing in circles with arms intertwined and singing "Hands Across the Ocean" will get us all killed. And anyone who knows anything about bullies knows that I speak the truth. J Smithson -- back on the wagon Well said. A big amen. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 6/7/2004 6:27:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If it offends you to hear that (in my opinion) part of what Torrance is serving as meat is in reality nothing more than horse apples, I suggest you learn to poke the delete key at least once. This is a discussion group,you know.. Terry Anything specific in mind, Terry? John >From what little I have read, I get a picture of God painted by Torrance. In this picture we have a creator wringing His hands and desperatly hoping that everyone will see the light. A God who, even though He condemns a person to eternal torment, still loves that person deeply and is all broken up about losing one of His creations. Torrance is on target in some areas, but this one dimension diety negates anything else he has to say that would interest me. The God I know, knew from the get go that most would be lost. He is not surprised and is not mourning. If He hates sin, by extention He must at some point hate the unrepentant sinner, or He would simply remove the penalty for unrightessness instead of consigning said sinner to eternal damnation. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Izzy:Too much Rush. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 16:03 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance, your political astuteness is dwarfed only by your humility. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Monday, June 07, 2004 9:34 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance Muir wrote: J&T: How 'bout a website hosted by y'all. People would write outlining the 'teaching' in question. Then, kind of like Ebert & Roeper, (thumbs up/down) you could pronounce on it to the benefit of the world at large. Or, on a scale of 1-5 horse apples, you could work with a picture of a horse dispensing apples on the aforementioned 'teaching' Have I ever mentioned what a privilege it is for me (us?) to read the musings of two such Bibically informed (?)persons as yourselves? ===What a great idea! Send me your tithes and offerings and we will get right on it. If everyone else is making a buck on Jesus, we might as well jump in too.Terry :-)
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Izzy: Just an observation based on public performance.You made it an insult. Powell or Cheyney would have made better Presidents than Bush. Just a note on Chretien (our now former Prime Minister):He probably couldn't have held his own in any debate with your current President. Lance From: ShieldsFamily To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 15:43 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance, Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to insult him because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically pro-American). When you insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone else who admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for our nation. Perhaps Torrance hasnt taught you any better manners than that? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/7/2004 5:40:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It would be hard to make a convincing argument that we are a Christian nation, but people do not fly planes into buildings because we are sinful or arrogant. They fly planes into buildings because they are stupid. Terry How do you like them apples, Jonathon? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/7/2004 4:39:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: My, my, lots of political stews today. My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true. It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize something. (By the way I think it was to get the Western world to realize something, not just America). What do you want to bet the Jihad Muslims want America out of the picture so they can control (eventually) the entire world for their god? There isn't any other message. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/7/2004 7:42:45 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I take offense and find it a bit smug of you to make the comment above. It is easy to sit in your armchair, far removed from the action, and call someone stupid. Bush has had a tough row to hoe, and I think he has done better than most others would have. I shudder to think how 9/11 and the days that followed would have been handled by Al Gore, or, heaven forbid, by John Kerry!!! Call me what you will...I will take a Bush over a Gore or a Kerry ANY day. Perry, not as moderator What is a fundalmentalist, anyway? I can tell you one thing (and then I will keep quiet on politics), the reason I will never again vote Democrat has everything to do with the fact that this political party stands for absolutely nothing that anyone (Christian) on this list stands for in terms of moral imperative and political freedoms. Do we realize that the people who want to compromise with the Jihad Muslims of this world, the liberal left, are the very people the Jihad Muslims dispise the most because of their gross immorality??!!! Bush has finally said, you have killed well over 4300 of our people over the last 17 years -- and enough is enough. We had just finished 8 years with a President who literally governed with his pants down during office hours, a president who had made the decision to cut the military, hoping to live and let live -- and they came after us anyway. 9-11 was almost entirely planned on Clinton's watch, not Bush's. Let's not forget, that Reagan one day told Kadafy, stop training the hijackers. Kadafy paid no attention, and Reagan sent several F14's, bombed Kadafy's home, killed one of his sons and forced a very gutless Omar into a five year exile. Standing in circles with arms intertwined and singing "Hands Across the Ocean" will get us all killed. And anyone who knows anything about bullies knows that I speak the truth. J Smithson -- back on the wagon
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/7/2004 7:24:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: J&T: How 'bout a website hosted by y'all. People would write outlining the 'teaching' in question. Then, kind of like Ebert &Roeper, (thumbs up/down) you could pronounce on it to the benefit of the world at large. Or, on a scale of 1-5 horse apples, you could work with a picture of a horse dispensing apples on the aforementioned 'teaching' Not to take sides, here, but this is funny. Every keep smiling. JD Smithers
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/7/2004 6:27:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If it offends you to hear that (in my opinion) part of what Torrance is serving as meat is in reality nothing more than horse apples, I suggest you learn to poke the delete key at least once. This is a discussion group,you know.. Terry Anything specific in mind, Terry? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
In a message dated 6/7/2004 2:54:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I wouldn't want to be trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but Torrance said" would you?? I am currently reading Torrence. So far there is nothing in his worded ministry that tells me he is of the Devil. Whether I agree or disagree with Torrence on any of several issues, has nothing to do with the notion that he is a discisple --- barnyard surplus and all (an illustion to Terrys post). What Torrence has done for me to this point in time is this; he has given me the motivation to start thinking again. In the end, my "theology" will reflect something of Torrence as well as the philosphy of the manifested God in scripture, David Brooks Smithson, Charlie Frayer, Jeff Mabee, Tim Howard, Lance Muir, JD Flanagin, Carl Ketcherside, Bill Taylor, Terry Whathisname, and, perhaps, some of my own thinking. John Smithsonian
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Jonathan, I have never heard of any American pretending to be a Canadian. I would rather travel as a road apple, which is what I think of your disgusting hateful post. How can you think that people flew planes into the World Trade Center “to get us to realize something”? What would that be—how evil people are who hate America??? Have you taken into account the enormous generosity America has had towards other backwards countries (such as your own)? Have you considered how many of the world’s Christian ministries are American? How many Americans spew venom against their neighbor like Canadians do? You have returned hatred for kindness. I count it all up to jealousy. May God forgive you all for it. It explains your weird, liberal (everyone is saved no matter what they do) theology completely. You can keep it. Izzy PS I don’t “argue” doctrine, but I do state what I believe, if you haven’t noticed. I have not chosen to argue politics—just to defend my country. Why should I have to do that with other “Christians”? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Hughes Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 5:33 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false My, my, lots of political stews today. My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true. It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize something. (By the way I think it was to get the Western world to realize something, not just America). Do you honestly think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores? Why do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel? I have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my backpack or clothing. It was amazing the different reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with. Do you have any clue as to what your country is accountable for? Do you have any grasp of your country’s history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but vehemently hate you? When one insults President Bush, one insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love him. Your logic is ridiculous! If what you say is true this means that one cannot critique anybody as that would mean critiquing everyone that is even faintly involved with them (and by faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they look like. I doubt you are claiming an actual relationship with Bush). For someone who refused to enter into theological debates you sure are willing to enter the political arena. Which do you care about more? Which is worth discussion more? Is it more important to think rightly about your country or about God? Do you realize that God is not American (or Canadian or any other nationality)? Do you confuse America’s prosperity with God’s blessing? Do you realize (even faintly, c’mon throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is to be unapologetically anti-Christian? >From some of your previous posts praising your country and its leaders one would think that you think that to be American (to agree/accept and live under the Bill of Rights and the American dream) is to be Christian. Enough politics for me. Either change the name of the thread or actually begin discussing the Mediation of Christ. Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance, Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to insult him because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically pro-American). When you insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone else who admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for our nation. Perhaps Torrance hasn’t taught you any better manners than that? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Jonathan Hughes wrote: My, my, lots of political stews today. My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true. It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize something. (By the way I think it was to get the Western world to realize something, not just America). It would be hard to make a convincing argument that we are a Christian nation, but people do not fly planes into buildings because we are sinful or arrogant. They fly planes into buildings because they are stupid. Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
My, my, lots of political stews today. My advice: actually listen to what others think of America; it just may be true. It may be false but people flew planes into buildings to get you to realize something. (By the way I think it was to get the Western world to realize something, not just America). Do you honestly think that Americans are well thought of outside of your shores? Why do you think many of them pretend to be Canadian when they travel? I have done a lot of traveling (3 continents) and I was taught very early to always have a Canadian flag somewhere on my backpack or clothing. It was amazing the different reaction I received as opposed to the Americans I traveled with. Do you have any clue as to what your country is accountable for? Do you have any grasp of your country’s history (or do you think like Judy that the Dark Ages were actually dark?) and why so many people not only dislike you but vehemently hate you? When one insults President Bush, one insults President Bush not you or those that admire and love him. Your logic is ridiculous! If what you say is true this means that one cannot critique anybody as that would mean critiquing everyone that is even faintly involved with them (and by faintly involved I mean someone who knows what they look like. I doubt you are claiming an actual relationship with Bush). For someone who refused to enter into theological debates you sure are willing to enter the political arena. Which do you care about more? Which is worth discussion more? Is it more important to think rightly about your country or about God? Do you realize that God is not American (or Canadian or any other nationality)? Do you confuse America’s prosperity with God’s blessing? Do you realize (even faintly, c’mon throw me a bone here) that being unapologetically pro-American is to be unapologetically anti-Christian? >From some of your previous posts praising your country and its leaders one would think that you think that to be American (to agree/accept and live under the Bill of Rights and the American dream) is to be Christian. Enough politics for me. Either change the name of the thread or actually begin discussing the Mediation of Christ. Jonathan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Monday, June 07, 2004 3:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance, Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to insult him because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically pro-American). When you insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone else who admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for our nation. Perhaps Torrance hasn’t taught you any better manners than that? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Or PM Martin, God forbid. -Original Message- I shudder to think how 9/11 and the days that followed would have been handled by Al Gore, or, heaven forbid, by John Kerry!!! Call me what you will...I will take a Bush over a Gore or a Kerry ANY day. Perry, not as moderator -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Lance, Some Americans (myself included) would consider this to be another arrogant Canadian insult. Some of us are of the opinion that President Bush, with his academic credentials included, is a LOT smarter than those who choose to insult him because they disagree with his policies (which are unapologetically pro-American). When you insult President Bush, you insult me and everyone else who admires and loves him, AND considers him to be an answer to prayer for our nation. Perhaps Torrance hasn’t taught you any better manners than that? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em.
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
ROFL J Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Good morning Lance. My missive was a question. The question was," Is your hero a false teacher, or simply ignorant?"(Choose one). You apparently overlooked that question mark. It would seem that I have gored your favorite ox, and now you are calling for us to keep our opinions to ourselves uinless we can be nicer to Torrance. Sorry, but that will not happen. I have been around horses most of my life. I am one of the world's leading authorities on horse apples, and when I see horse apples I recognize them and identify them as what they are. I do not need to study them under a microscope for days or weeks. If it offends you to hear that (in my opinion) part of what Torrance is serving as meat is in reality nothing more than horse apples, I suggest you learn to poke the delete key at least once. This is a discussion group,you know.. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
\o/ !HALALU Yah! \o/ Greetings in the Matchless Name of YahShua !! It is true that he looks good when compared to Clinton or Kerry ... Looks can be deceiving. Ahava b' YahShua (Love in The SAVIOUR) Baruch YHVH, (Bless The LORD) Bro. Chris a servant of YHVH
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Terry: Pay more attention then. You've missed this concerning the 'enlightened' one. - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 11:46 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance Muir wrote: Terry: My hero is neither. From one 'leading authority' to another allow me to suggest that you check out TFT. He's considered to be, by some, (not by you I know but, then you haven't read him) to be the leading theologian in the English speaking world for the 20 century. From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em. When one's opinions function with the vacuity that yours do I read them with a smile. I don't need to hit delete. =It is always nice to know that I have managed to give someone a smile. Hope I brightened your day.As for the election. I will not be voting FOR anyone. I will be voting against Kerry. By the way, what makes you think that Bush is a fundamentalist? I have not heard him use the great power that the Lord has given him to lead our country in prayer, or to proclaim the abortionists to be murderers, or to beg the citizens to turn from their sin. It is true that he looks good when compared to Clinton or Kerry, but who doesn't? As far as I can tell, he is more interested in being a politician than a fundamentalist.Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Lance Muir wrote: Terry: My hero is neither. From one 'leading authority' to another allow me to suggest that you check out TFT. He's considered to be, by some, (not by you I know but, then you haven't read him) to be the leading theologian in the English speaking world for the 20 century. From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em. When one's opinions function with the vacuity that yours do I read them with a smile. I don't need to hit delete. = It is always nice to know that I have managed to give someone a smile. Hope I brightened your day. As for the election. I will not be voting FOR anyone. I will be voting against Kerry. By the way, what makes you think that Bush is a fundamentalist? I have not heard him use the great power that the Lord has given him to lead our country in prayer, or to proclaim the abortionists to be murderers, or to beg the citizens to turn from their sin. It is true that he looks good when compared to Clinton or Kerry, but who doesn't? As far as I can tell, he is more interested in being a politician than a fundamentalist. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Lance Muir wrote: J&T: How 'bout a website hosted by y'all. People would write outlining the 'teaching' in question. Then, kind of like Ebert & Roeper, (thumbs up/down) you could pronounce on it to the benefit of the world at large. Or, on a scale of 1-5 horse apples, you could work with a picture of a horse dispensing apples on the aforementioned 'teaching' Have I ever mentioned what a privilege it is for me (us?) to read the musings of two such Bibically informed (?)persons as yourselves? === What a great idea! Send me your tithes and offerings and we will get right on it. If everyone else is making a buck on Jesus, we might as well jump in too. Terry :-)
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
"Not the moderator: Take offence all you like. I'm a bit of a political junkie. Let's just say that he did well to surround himself with people who are smart (unlike himself). C'mon Perry, he's all you've got so you've got to make do the best of a pretty bad lot. - Original Message - From: "Charles Perry Locke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: June 07, 2004 10:42 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false > >Lance wrote to Terry: > > From someone who is likely to re-electa sincere but pretty stupid > >fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years... > > I take offense and find it a bit smug of you to make the comment above. It > is easy to sit in your armchair, far removed from the action, and call > someone stupid. Bush has had a tough row to hoe, and I think he has done > better than most others would have. I shudder to think how 9/11 and the days > that followed would have been handled by Al Gore, or, heaven forbid, by John > Kerry!!! Call me what you will...I will take a Bush over a Gore or a Kerry > ANY day. > > Perry, not as moderator > > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Lance wrote to Terry: From someone who is likely to re-electa sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years... I take offense and find it a bit smug of you to make the comment above. It is easy to sit in your armchair, far removed from the action, and call someone stupid. Bush has had a tough row to hoe, and I think he has done better than most others would have. I shudder to think how 9/11 and the days that followed would have been handled by Al Gore, or, heaven forbid, by John Kerry!!! Call me what you will...I will take a Bush over a Gore or a Kerry ANY day. Perry, not as moderator -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
J&T: How 'bout a website hosted by y'all. People would write outlining the 'teaching' in question. Then, kind of like Ebert & Roeper, (thumbs up/down) you could pronounce on it to the benefit of the world at large. Or, on a scale of 1-5 horse apples, you could work with a picture of a horse dispensing apples on the aforementioned 'teaching' Have I ever mentioned what a privilege it is for me (us?) to read the musings of two such Bibically informed (?)persons as yourselves? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 10:04 Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I am not real certain Judy. I would like to think that the false teacher would have to be deliberately teaching false doctrine to in some way benefit himself instead of the Lord, but that can not cover all the bases. There are some teaching obvious lies that actually believe that they have the truth. They teach it in good conscience because it is what they have been taught. Still, they are false teachers. jt: False teachers are discussed in 2 Peter 2 vs.9 says "The Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished; but chiefly them that walk after the flesh..[] and vs.17 describes them as wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest to whom the mist of darkness is reserved forever, for when they speak great swelling words of vanity they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption; for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage [] terryc: How the Lord views this I don't know. Is it worse to teach that Allah is God than it is to teach that you can pray to Mary or one of the Saints? Both are false teachings. How about those who teach prosperity theology? Are they worse than those who say God chose some to be saved and some to be lost and there is nothing you can do to change it? jt: I don't know if any of the above are worse than the rest. I do know that God allows them to test our hearts (see Deuteronomy 13:3-5) terryc: Would God send them to Hell as quickly as He would Pagan Wolf? Personally, I have more respect for Pagan Wolf than I do some of those who teach easy salvation that only requires an agreement that Jesus is Lord but never mentions dying to self and following Him. jt: I hear you. Pagan Wolf is what he is and doesn't pretend to be anything else.. so we know not to follow him; but those who come in the name of Christ with a false message/teaching are playing with issues of life and death. terryc: I think that like most sin, false teaching would have to be the pattern of your life rather than a rare slip up. At least I hope so. When I was first saved I was made a Sunday school teacher. Not because I was knowlegable, but because no one wanted to teach and they needed a warm body. Looking back, I can see areas where I was dangerously close to being a false teacher, and maybe was one on occasion. Not that I have attained perfection and am incapable of error now. I just have a lot more Bible study behind me now than I did then and am less likely to take a wrong turn than I was in those days. Good thing that God looks at the heart, huh? jt: You are so right. You shouldn't have been put in that position as a very young believer - at least the intent of your heart was right and so God could eventually shine more light on your path. My walk has been similar but I've always been a learner. I see "false teachers" as setting themselves up as an authority but they teach another way to heaven.. Judy Taylor wrote: jt: Doesn't Satan always hang his lies on truth? He would not succeed in deceiving without it. The Koran is 50% scripture and every cult uses some mixture of twisted scripture in their teachings - they just add and subtract a few things. When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he used scripture, presented with his spin of course but it was God's truth he perverted. How do his (Satan's) ministers present themselves as 'angels of light without God's Word?' I wouldn't presume to judge Torrance the man, that is God's business but it is our responsibility to be Berean and judge his public teaching in the light of God's Word. I consider it false enough to be dangerous. How would you define a false teacher Terry? From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Terry, you write: It would appear from reading just a fraction of what Torrance ta
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Terry: My hero is neither. From one 'leading authority' to another allow me to suggest that you check out TFT. He's considered to be, by some, (not by you I know but, then you haven't read him) to be the leading theologian in the English speaking world for the 20 century. From someone who is likely to re-elect a sincere but pretty stupid fundamentalist Christian to be the 'world leader' for four more years, I'd say you have not been examining 'horse apples' but eatin 'em. When one's opinions function with the vacuity that yours do I read them with a smile. I don't need to hit delete. - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 09:26 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Lance Muir wrote: Hi Terry/Judy:TF a false teacher? This then would indicate that you two have read or listened to him with sufficient care and thoughtfulness to have distinguished the true from the false (according to your own perception of the truth). If circumstances could be reversed would this make the two of you 'false teachers'? This isn't the way to carry on a discussion re: the content of one's teaching vis a vis it's faithfulness to God and His Gospel. As the TV has an on/off switch so I'd suggest you opt out of the discussion if you don't wish to scrutinize it with care.--Good morning Lance. My missive was a question. The question was," Is your hero a false teacher, or simply ignorant?"(Choose one). You apparently overlooked that question mark. It would seem that I have gored your favorite ox, and now you are calling for us to keep our opinions to ourselves uinless we can be nicer to Torrance. Sorry, but that will not happen. I have been around horses most of my life. I am one of the world's leading authorities on horse apples, and when I see horse apples I recognize them and identify them as what they are. I do not need to study them under a microscope for days or weeks.If it offends you to hear that (in my opinion) part of what Torrance is serving as meat is in reality nothing more than horse apples, I suggest you learn to poke the delete key at least once. This is a discussion group,you know.. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Lance Muir wrote: Hi Terry/Judy:TF a false teacher? This then would indicate that you two have read or listened to him with sufficient care and thoughtfulness to have distinguished the true from the false (according to your own perception of the truth). If circumstances could be reversed would this make the two of you 'false teachers'? This isn't the way to carry on a discussion re: the content of one's teaching vis a vis it's faithfulness to God and His Gospel. As the TV has an on/off switch so I'd suggest you opt out of the discussion if you don't wish to scrutinize it with care. -- Good morning Lance. My missive was a question. The question was," Is your hero a false teacher, or simply ignorant?"(Choose one). You apparently overlooked that question mark. It would seem that I have gored your favorite ox, and now you are calling for us to keep our opinions to ourselves uinless we can be nicer to Torrance. Sorry, but that will not happen. I have been around horses most of my life. I am one of the world's leading authorities on horse apples, and when I see horse apples I recognize them and identify them as what they are. I do not need to study them under a microscope for days or weeks. If it offends you to hear that (in my opinion) part of what Torrance is serving as meat is in reality nothing more than horse apples, I suggest you learn to poke the delete key at least once. This is a discussion group,you know.. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Judyt: I saying #2. No, no, no don't flee to the 'dark ages' as an excuse. Look in your church. Look in your neighborhood. Look in your state. Look in your country. Look in your world. Now, now, now! All of this is happening now. Just how uninformed are you, Judy? Honestly, if you truly don't know that this is so then, I need to give you a 'pass' on such such matters.. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 08:42 Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false You said all that to say what Lance? That the wisdom of scripture/Bible is unreliable or that people (genuine believing Christians IYO) are hopelessly sinful and ignorant? I would point out that the Church was into apostasy by the 2nd century and that most of what you mention below took place during the dark ages when God's truth was chained to an apostate pulpit - and people walked in what they were told by the magisterium of an apostate religious system. We are presently living in a new day. From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judyt:Perhaps you are, Judy. People who believed that the earth was flat (with Bible to support it); people who believed the sun revolved around the earth (with Bible to support it), people who believed that slavery was good (with Bible to support it); people who believed that women are chattel (with Bible to support it) exemplified the sort of 'certainty' that you do about most matters 'Biblical'. PS read genuine believing Christians' for the word 'people' From: Judy Taylor From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judyt:Do you honestly believe, even for a nanosecond, that any one who reads him thinks like that? I recognize that 'cheap shots' are made by all on TT from time to time but, often they have some basis in fact. If you've never received an 'assist' in your perception of God and the Gospel by a human being then, praise God! 'cause you're an anomally. jt: I don't remember ever saying that I've never sat under any ministry or received teaching from anyone. To the contrary - this is how I have learned (the hard way) to be responsible to evaluate everything I read/hear in the light of God's Word especially today since there is more divination, apostasy, and false teaching out there now than there has ever been in the history of the Church. I do not take cheap shots Lance, I am as serious about this as I can be. From: Terry Clifton Judy Taylor wrote: I wouldn't want to be trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but Torrance said" would you??It would appear from reading just a fraction of what Torrance taught, that his teaching is a mixture. Part truth, and part oats that have already been through the horse. If this is true, does that make him a false teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of us?Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Judyt:Perhaps you are, Judy. People who believed that the earth was flat (with Bible to support it); people who believed the sun revolved around the earth (with Bible to support it), people who believed that slavery was good (with Bible to support it); people who believed that women are chattel (with Bible to support it) exemplified the sort of 'certainty' that you do about most matters 'Biblical'. PS read genuine believing Christians' for the word 'people' - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 07:52 Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Judyt:Do you honestly believe, even for a nanosecond, that any one who reads him thinks like that? I recognize that 'cheap shots' are made by all on TT from time to time but, often they have some basis in fact. If you've never received an 'assist' in your perception of God and the Gospel by a human being then, praise God! 'cause you're an anomally. jt: I don't remember ever saying that I've never sat under any ministry or received teaching from anyone. To the contrary - this is how I have learned (the hard way) to be responsible to evaluate everything I read/hear in the light of God's Word especially today since there is more divination, apostasy, and false teaching out there now than there has ever been in the history of the Church. I do not take cheap shots Lance, I am as serious about this as I can be. From: Terry Clifton Judy Taylor wrote: I wouldn't want to be trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but Torrance said" would you??It would appear from reading just a fraction of what Torrance taught, that his teaching is a mixture. Part truth, and part oats that have already been through the horse. If this is true, does that make him a false teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of us?Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Judyt:No, I wouldn't put Jesus in the same category. However, I would put you, Terry, Izzy, DavidM, DaveH, Laura, G, and all the rest of us in 'that' category. Are we both reading the posts on TT?? Do you not perceive how one's 'perception' of the truth is 'colored', bent, skewed, influenced?? Once again:'genuine' beliver + God's Word + Holy Spirit=a 'gazillion' churches, books, preachers, participants in chat rooms or, one's perception of the truth. Other than yourself does anyone else disagree with this equation? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 07, 2004 07:42 Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Terry/Judy:TF a false teacher? This then would indicate that you two have read or listened to him with sufficient care and thoughtfulness to have distinguished the true from the false (according to your own perception of the truth). jt: Lance it intrigues me that you always use the qualifier "your own perception of the truth" Truth is what it is and it is not difficult, it is written right there in scripture. I daresay if Jesus Himself walked amongst us you would put him in the same category. Don't you believe Jeremiah 31:33, or Hebrews 8:8-11? Is noone able to perceive truth by the ministry of the Holy Spirit? Has God lost the battle and the adversary clouded the issues so that the truth is hidden from everyone who does not agree with you, Bill, Jonathan, and Torrance? If circumstances could be reversed would this make the two of you 'false teachers'? jt: What circumstances? This isn't the way to carry on a discussion re: the content of one's teaching vis a vis it's faithfulness to God and His Gospel. As the TV has an on/off switch so I'd suggest you opt out of the discussion if you don't wish to scrutinize it with care. jt: I've fallen for this one in trying to dialogue with die hard members of the rcc even going so far as to buy their new catechism which was a waste of time/money and didn't help any of us because if we will not unify around the truth of God's Word there can be no unity. We would be much wiser to scrutinize the Word of God the bread from heaven because to validate your beliefs you will need to show them in the Word of God (in balance and in context). So far your group has put forth a few scriptures that appear to validate these claims ignorting those that would need to be excised if this theory were true. We know we are making progress when we don't have to modify or cut out any scripture to fit our doctrine. From: Judy Taylor From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Terry, you write: It would appear from reading just a fraction of what Torrance taught, that his teaching is a mixture. Part truth, and part oats that have already been through the horse. If this is true, does that make him a false teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of us? Terry jt: Doesn't Satan always hang his lies on truth? He would not succeed in deceiving without it. The Koran is 50% scripture and every cult uses some mixture of twisted scripture in their teachings - they just add and subtract a few things. When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he used scripture, presented with his spin of course but it was God's truth he perverted. How do his (Satan's) ministers present themselves as 'angels of light without God's Word?' I wouldn't presume to judge Torrance the man, that is God's business but it is our responsibility to be Berean and judge his public teaching in the light of God's Word. I consider it false enough to be dangerous. How would you define a false teacher Terry? ===Judy Taylor wrote:I wouldn't want to be trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but Torrance said" would you??
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Hi Terry/Judy:TF a false teacher? This then would indicate that you two have read or listened to him with sufficient care and thoughtfulness to have distinguished the true from the false (according to your own perception of the truth). If circumstances could be reversed would this make the two of you 'false teachers'? This isn't the way to carry on a discussion re: the content of one's teaching vis a vis it's faithfulness to God and His Gospel. As the TV has an on/off switch so I'd suggest you opt out of the discussion if you don't wish to scrutinize it with care. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 06, 2004 17:49 Subject: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Terry, you write: It would appear from reading just a fraction of what Torrance taught, that his teaching is a mixture. Part truth, and part oats that have already been through the horse. If this is true, does that make him a false teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of us? Terry jt: Doesn't Satan always hang his lies on truth? He would not succeed in deceiving without it. The Koran is 50% scripture and every cult uses some mixture of twisted scripture in their teachings - they just add and subtract a few things. When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he used scripture, presented with his spin of course but it was God's truth he perverted. How do his (Satan's) ministers present themselves as 'angels of light without God's Word?' I wouldn't presume to judge Torrance the man, that is God's business but it is our responsibility to be Berean and judge his public teaching in the light of God's Word. I consider it false enough to be dangerous. How would you define a false teacher Terry? ===Judy Taylor wrote:I wouldn't want to be trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but Torrance said" would you??
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Judyt:Do you honestly believe, even for a nanosecond, that any one who reads him thinks like that? I recognize that 'cheap shots' are made by all on TT from time to time but, often they have some basis in fact. If you've never received an 'assist' in your perception of God and the Gospel by a human being then, praise God! 'cause you're an anomally. - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: June 06, 2004 16:10 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false Judy Taylor wrote: I wouldn't want to be trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but Torrance said" would you??It would appear from reading just a fraction of what Torrance taught, that his teaching is a mixture. Part truth, and part oats that have already been through the horse. If this is true, does that make him a false teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of us?Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Judy Taylor wrote: From: Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi Terry, you write: It would appear from reading just a fraction of what Torrance taught, that his teaching is a mixture. Part truth, and part oats that have already been through the horse. If this is true, does that make him a false teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of us? Terry jt: Doesn't Satan always hang his lies on truth? He would not succeed in deceiving without it. The Koran is 50% scripture and every cult uses some mixture of twisted scripture in their teachings - they just add and subtract a few things. When Satan tempted Jesus in the wilderness, he used scripture, presented with his spin of course but it was God's truth he perverted. How do his (Satan's) ministers present themselves as 'angels of light without God's Word?' I wouldn't presume to judge Torrance the man, that is God's business but it is our responsibility to be Berean and judge his public teaching in the light of God's Word. I consider it false enough to be dangerous. How would you define a false teacher Terry? === I am not real certain Judy. I would like to think that the false teacher would have to be deliberately teaching false doctrine to in some way benefit himself instead of the Lord, but that can not cover all the bases. There are some teaching obvious lies that actually believe that they have the truth. They teach it in good conscience because it is what they have been taught. Still, they are false teachers. How the Lord views this I don't know. Is it worse to teach that Allah is God than it is to teach that you can pray to Mary or one of the Saints? Both are false teachings. How about those who teach prosperity theology? Are they worse than those who say God chose some to be saved and some to be lost and there is nothing you can do to change it? Would God send them to Hell as quickly as He would Pagan Wolf? Personally, I have more respect for Pagan Wolf than I do some of those who teach easy salvation that only requires an agreement that Jesus is Lord but never mentions dying to self and following Him. I think that like most sin, false teaching would have to be the pattern of your life rather than a rare slip up. At least I hope so. When I was first saved I was made a Sunday school teacher. Not because I was knowlegable, but because no one wanted to teach and they needed a warm body. Looking back, I can see areas where I was dangerously close to being a false teacher, and maybe was one on occasion. Not that I have attained perfection and am incapable of error now. I just have a lot more Bible study behind me now than I did then and am less likely to take a wrong turn than I was in those days. Good thing that God looks at the heart, huh? Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
Judy Taylor wrote: I wouldn't want to be trying to stand in 'the day of the Lord' holding on to "but Torrance said" would you?? It would appear from reading just a fraction of what Torrance taught, that his teaching is a mixture. Part truth, and part oats that have already been through the horse. If this is true, does that make him a false teacher, or just another imperfect human like the rest of us? Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Mediation of Christ -- the real vs false
How very BIZARRE. A gospel of noninvolvement. A gospel that permits every form of evil. Who could possibly believe this??? (Please—don’t answer!) Izzy ie Torrance teaches: "From beginning to end what Jesus Christ has done for you he has done not only as God but as man. He has acted in your place in the whole range of your human life and activity, including your personal decisions, and your responses to God's love, and even your acts of faith. He has believed for you, fulfilled your human response to God, even made your personal decision for you, so that he acknowledges you before God as one who has already responded to God in him, who already believed in God through him, and whose personal decision is already implicated in Christ's self-offering to the Father, in all of which he has been fully and completely accepted by the Father, so that in Jesus Christ you are already accepted by him" If this is truth then there is nothing left to renounce or to overcome because it's all been taken care of - He did it all.
