Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
No, John. Ask Bill. I'm sure he understood. Bill put Elohim as the subject making Yeshua YHWH. This translation from the Hebrew and Aramaic texts of the New Testament puts YHWH as the subject making Yeshua Elohim. It calls into question the reliability of Bill's point about the triune decision where Yeshua would be part of the decision making process to make himself YHWH and Messiah. There are some other points to be made, but if you can't see this point, there is no reason to go into it further. David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 3:09 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? The Hebraic-Roots Version translates Acts 2:36 as: Truly therefore, let know all the house of Yisra'el that YHWH and the Messiah has made Eloah this Yeshua, whom you crucified.DM and this, in fact, validates Bill's thesis !! Surely you know better than to hang the entire gospel on one's interpretation of one sermon. We are not told the entire message of Peter, so we don't really know all the things Peter hammered upon concerning repentance.DM I doubt that Bill's whole theology on this matter comes from this assage -- but surely it is of value to discus what IS written. There is no question whatsoever that Peter was calling them to a point of view about Christ that they (the Jews) had gotten wrong. Luke want's Theophilus to see the importance of Jesus as YHWH and Messiah -- and the role this played in the conversion (repentance) of the very people who had Him crucified . jd -- Original message -- From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill wrote: Please consider this with me: the Hebrew speaking Jews present that day would have heard Peter saying to them that Elohim hath made that same Yeshua . . . both Yahweh and Messiah. Does this mean that God made Jesus divine? No, it means that Elohim -- a plural noun; hence it being a triune decision -- made Yeshua the one whom the Jews had been worshiping throughout their history as a people. Peter is saying to them that the one whom they had nailed to the cross was the very covenant- keeping YHWH of their fathers. Hence they were cut to the heart and feared greatly. What must they do? they asked. They must change their minds about this Jesus and be baptized (in his name no less!) into the forgiveness of sins, whereupon they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Hebraic-Roots Version translates Acts 2:36 as: Truly therefore, let know all the house of Yisra'el that YHWH and the Messiah has made Eloah this Yeshua, whom you crucified. So I'm not sure about your emphasis on Elohim and the triune decision. Bill wrote: To shift the emphasis from this to a general call to turn from sin, which is what most preaching on repentance entails, is to miss the thrust of Peter's sermon: that this Jesus whom they had crucified was in fact their LORD and Christ; it is therefore to miss the primary aspect of repentance -- that they believe in this Yahweh who saves -- and to make that which is now but a subsidiary, although an important one, the main point, thus changing the thrust of the Gospel. Surely you know better than to hang the entire gospel on one's interpretation of one sermon. We are not told the entire message of Peter, so we don't really know all the things Peter hammered upon concerning repentance. I'm not going to quibble with you about your putting an emphasis upon people changing their minds about who Jesus is. It is important! I would not quibble with you in saying that repentance from sin is subsidiary to repenting about one's attitude toward Jesus. On the other hand, if you are going to quibble about preachers who might sometimes put the emphasis on repenting from sin, repenting from their evil deeds, then you will hear some comment from me on that. Heb. 6:1 says that an elementary principle of the doctrine of Christ is repentance from dead works. This clearly links repentance and sin. Many other passages likewise do the same. Fo r example: Revelation 16:11 (11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. Revelation 9:21 (21) Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. Revelation 2:21-23 (21) And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. (22) Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. (23) And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 2 Corinthians 12:21 (21) And lest, when I come again, my God
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Yes, John, very well stated. Sin can and does exist apart from the Law. And you are also right that Jonah was not calling them to live their lives as the Jews. So you see, there are many things upon which we agree. There is nothing explicitly stated in this post with which I disagree. Perhaps you should reconsider the depth of our disagreements. Perhaps you object to me more on a personal and relationship level and less on an ideological level. Could that be clouding your judgment of what I write? David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? well, Nineveh was not under the Law. Jonah does not call them to the Law. And it is the Law that defines sin to be sin. Can sin exist apart from the law? Paul says it does. Jonah is certainly not calling them to live their lives as the Jews lived theirs !! jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I'm not surprised since you and Bill are so into culture and all that - but don't bring God into your folly. The pagan Persian City of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Luke 11:32) And what do you suppose his message to them was? From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of total depravity and this comes out of a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006 -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
- Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: 1/14/2006 2:20:45 PM Subject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: 'Lance Muir' Sent: January 14, 2006 14:18 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Of course it is sin and needs repenting of. (JD is actually making the same vocabulary mistake below as DM.) But it is not immorality; in fact, it is morality.Where this wholediscussion of repentance began was with a critique ofstreet preachers' focus on repentance as a call to turn from immoral living to moral living.As pointed out long ago by Bill and/or JD, the repentance urged on people in much biblical preaching was not a call to moral living, but a call to recognize God. Insofar as it was a call to moral living,it was to people who were already the people of God, and was a call to recognize God as covenant partner.Peter's sermon fits right into that and moves beyond it;the covenant is gathered up in Christ who turns out to be both its maker and keeper, and that is why repentance is sealed by being baptized into him. D cd: Debbie would yoube so kind as to explain more on this? Thanks. From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 1:45 PMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 12:54 Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Well it is something that needs to be repented of JD; if it is not sin, then why the need to repent? Dead works is something lifeless as opposed to works of righteousness which are the fruit of walking after the spirit. One is dead religion - the other is life and peace. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:17:39 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes -- and who said that "repentance from dead works" is speaking of sin, anyway? "Dead works" is that body of works that convinces someone that she is accpted by God RATHER THAN PLACING HER FAITH IN THE CHRIST and allowing Him and Him alone to be glorified in this [saving] function. Bill's comment is brilliant, I think, and as it is attached to Acts 2 -- the best possible understanding of what happened on that First Day. There is no reason to think that the Hebrews writer has something else in mind when he speaks of repentance from the failing effort of self justification. jd From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Debbie Sawczak Dead worksis not the same as immorality, which is what I think David means by sin. IMO, that [his equating sin with immorality] is where this false and hence problematic distinction arises between repentance from 'sin' and repentance from a failure to recognize who Christ is. yD From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:01 AMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 09:38 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Re: repentance: basically, your admitting that Bill's understanding of the Acts passage he postedis correct--i'd agree that's bible teaching however, the point you are trying tomake about it, represented below,is a scripturedog that don't hunt--as usual, itis your own private notion universalized, shot through with geekness butrooted plainly (through contrast) in personalized philosophy,over which you sprinklesome home-brew holy waterlabeled 'Heb 6:1' the issue historically is that you don't study and think much about (e.g.) Heb 6:1 while continually presupposing that it matches your philosophical bias,bec to you it sounds alwayslike it does in the end, it simply ain't bible teaching, Bro On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:46:06 -0500 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:|| Surely you know better than to hang the entire gospel on one's interpretation of one sermon. || Heb. 6:1 says that an elementary principle of the doctrine of Christ is repentance from dead works. This clearly links repentance and sin. || --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006 --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006 --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006 --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
I will entertain the possiblility that you are correct. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes, John, very well stated. Sin can and does exist apart from the Law. And you are also right that Jonah was not calling them to live their lives as the Jews. So you see, there are many things upon which we agree. There is nothing explicitly stated in this post with which I disagree.. Perhaps you should reconsider the depth of our disagreements. Perhaps you object to me more on a personal and relationship level and less on an ideological level. Could that be clouding your judgment of what I write? David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 4:36 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospe l? well, Nineveh was not under the Law. Jonah does not call them to the Law. And it is the Law that defines sin to be sin. Can sin exist apart from the law? Paul says it does. Jonah is certainly not calling them to live their lives as the Jews lived theirs !! jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I'm not surprised since you and Bill are so into culture and all that - but don't bring God into your folly. The pagan Persian City of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Luke 11:32) And what do you suppose his message to them was? From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; bec ause after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes out of a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) r eminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D-- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006 -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
I assumed the quoted translation to be an interlinear and literal translation, in which case the reading is both typically difficult but supportive of Bill's comments. Look at the quote and you will see the need for further 'translation." Truly therefore, let know all the house of Yisra'el that YHWH and the Messiah has made Eloah this Yeshua, whom you crucified." This appears to be an interlinear and literal translation. It's difficulty is attached to its literal nature: I assumed this translation to be in agreement with the gk text, not counter to thegk text as you seem to claim. And this is how I solved the "syntaxual"problems: (and I did this almost as a matter of instinct - beingaccustomedto the same difficulties in the literal translations of the gk interlinears.) Truly therefore, let know all the house of Yisra'el that YHWH and the I therefore truly say this, let all the House of Israel know that Messiah has made Eloah this Yeshua, whom you crucified."God has made this Jesus YHWH and Messiah , whom you crucified. Is this a literal translation of the Hebrew Roots text? It certainly appears to be. jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] No, John. Ask Bill. I'm sure he understood. Bill put Elohim as the subject making Yeshua YHWH. This translation from the Hebrew and Aramaic texts of the New Testament puts YHWH as the subject making Yeshua Elohim. It calls into question the reliability of Bill's point about the "triune decision" where Yeshua would be part of the decision making process to make himself YHWH and Messiah. There are some other points to be made, but if you can't see this point, there is no reason to go into it further. David Miller - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org ; TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 3:09 PM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gosp el?The Hebraic-Roots Version translates Acts 2:36 as: "Truly therefore, let know all the house of Yisra'el that YHWH and the Messiah has made Eloah this Yeshua, whom you crucified." DM and this, in fact, validates Bill's thesis !!Surely you know better than to hang the entire gospel on one's interpretation of one sermon. We are not told the entire message of Peter, so we don't really know all the things Peter hammered upon concerning repentance. DM I doubt that Bill's whole theology on this matter comes from this assage -- but surely it is of value to discus what IS written. There is no question whatsoever that Peter was calling them to a point of view about Christ that they (the Jews) had gotten wrong. Luke want's Theophilus to see the importance of Jesus as YHWH and Messiah -- and the role this played in the conversion (repentance) of the very people who had Him crucified . jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Bill wrote:Please consider this with me: the Hebrew speakingJews present that day would have heard Peter sayingto them that "Elohim hath made that same Yeshua . . .both Yahweh and Messiah." Does this mean that Godmade Jesus divine? No, it means that Elohim -- a pluralnoun; hence it being a triune decision -- made Yeshua theone whom the Jews had been worshiping throughout theirhistory as a people. Peter is saying to them that the onewhom they had nailed to the cross was the very covenant-keeping YHWH of their fathers. Hence they were cut tothe heart and feared greatly. What must they do? they asked. t; They must change their minds about this Jesus and be baptized(in his name no less!) into the forgiveness of sins, whereuponthey would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Hebraic-Roots Version translates Acts 2:36 as: "Truly therefore, let know all the house of Yisra'el that YHWH and the Messiah has made Eloah this Yeshua, whom you crucified." So I'm not sure about your emphasis on Elohim and the triune decision. Bill wrote:To shift the emphasis from this to a general call to turnfrom sin, which is what most preaching on repentanceentails, is to miss the thrust of Peter's sermon: that thisJesus whom they had crucified was in fact their LORDand Christ; it is therefore to miss the primary aspect ofrepentance -- that they believe in this Yahweh who saves < BR> -- and to make that which is now but a subsidiary, althoughan important one, the main point, thus changing the thrustof the Gospel. Surely you know better than to hang the entire gospel on one's interpretation of one sermon. We are not told the entire message of Peter, so we don't really know all the things Peter hammered upon concerning repentance. I'm not going to quibble with you about your putting an emphasis upon people changing their minds about who Jesus is. It is important! I would not quibble with you in
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Re: repentance: basically, your admitting that Bill's understanding of the Acts passage he postedis correct--i'd agree that's bible teaching however, the point you are trying tomake about it, represented below,is a scripturedog that don't hunt--as usual, itis your own private notion universalized, shot through with geekness butrooted plainly (through contrast) in personalized philosophy,over which you sprinklesome home-brew holy waterlabeled 'Heb 6:1' the issue historically is that you don't study and think much about (e.g.) Heb 6:1 while continually presupposing that it matches your philosophical bias,bec to you it sounds alwayslike it does in the end, it simply ain't bible teaching, Bro On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:46:06 -0500 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:|| Surely you know better than to hang the entire gospel on one's interpretation of one sermon. || Heb. 6:1 says that an elementary principle of the doctrine of Christ is repentance from dead works. This clearly links repentance and sin. ||
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
The Hebraic-Roots Version translates Acts 2:36 as:"Truly therefore, let know all the house of Yisra'el that YHWH and the Messiah has made Eloah this Yeshua, whom you crucified." DM and this, in fact, validates Bill's thesis !! Surely you know better than to hang the entire gospel on one's interpretation of one sermon. We are not told the entire message of Peter, so we don't really know all the things Peter hammered upon concerning repentance. DM I doubt that Bill's whole theology on this matter comes from this passage -- but surely it is of value to discus what IS written. There is no question whatsoever that Peter was calling them to apoint of view about Christ that they (the Jews) had gotten wrong. Luke want's Theophilus to see the importance of Jesus as YHWH and Messiah -- and the role this played in the conversion (repentance) of the very people who had Him crucified . jd -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Bill wrote: Please consider this with me: the Hebrew speaking Jews present that day would have heard Peter saying to them that "Elohim hath made that same Yeshua . . . both Yahweh and Messiah." Does this mean that God made Jesus divine? No, it means that Elohim -- a plural noun; hence it being a triune decision -- made Yeshua the one whom the Jews had been worshiping throughout their history as a people. Peter is saying to them that the one whom they had nailed to the cross was the very covenant- keeping YHWH of their fathers. Hence they were cut to the heart and feared greatly. What must they do? they asked. They must change their minds about this Jesus and be baptized (in his name no less!) into the forgiveness of sins, whereupon they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Hebraic-Roots Version translates Acts 2:36 as: "Truly therefore, let know all the house of Yisra'el that YHWH and the Messiah has made Eloah this Yeshua, whom you crucified." So I'm not sure about your emphasis on Elohim and the triune decision. Bill wrote: To shift the emphasis from this to a general call to turn from sin, which is what most preaching on repentance entails, is to miss the thrust of Peter's sermon: that this Jesus whom they had crucified was in fact their LORD and Christ; it is therefore to miss the primary aspect of repentance -- that they believe in this Yahweh who saves -- and to make that which is now but a subsidiary, although an important one, the main point, thus changing the thrust of the Gospel. Surely you know better than to hang the entire gospel on one's interpretation of one sermon. We are not told the entire message of Peter, so we don't really know all the things Peter hammered upon concerning repentance. I'm not going to quibble with you about your putting an emphasis upon people changing their minds about who Jesus is. It is important! I would not quibble with you in saying that repentance from sin is subsidiary to repenting about one's attitude toward Jesus. On the other hand, if you are going to quibble about preachers who might sometimes put the emphasis on repenting from sin, repenting from their evil deeds, then you will hear some comment from me on that. Heb. 6:1 says that an elementary principle of the doctrine of Christ is repentance from dead works. This clearly links repentance and sin. Many other passages likewise do the same. Fo r example: Revelation 16:11 (11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. Revelation 9:21 (21) Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. Revelation 2:21-23 (21) And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. (22) Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. (23) And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 2 Corinthians 12:21 (21) And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not rep ented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. Paul makes a connection between repentance and works in his appeal to Agrippa: Acts 26:19-20 (19) Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: (20) But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. We have to understand the difference between a sowing ministry and a reaping ministry. They are not the same. They have a different emphasis. John the Baptist represents the sowing
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Debbie: I am trying to say that repentance from dead works is activity that results in self-justification - we repent from that and , in so doing, turn to the only other alternative, Jesus. Does this clarify my remarks? Help !! jd -- Original message -- From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Debbie Sawczak To: 'Lance Muir' Sent: January 14, 2006 14:18 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Of course it is sin and needs repenting of. (JD is actually making the same vocabulary mistake below as DM.) But it is not immorality; in fact, it is morality.Where this wholediscussion of repentance began was with a critique ofstreet preachers' focus on repentance as a call to turn from immoral living to moral living.As pointed out long ago by Bill and/or JD, the repentance urged on people in much biblical preaching was not a call to moral living, but a call to recognize God. Insofar as it was a call to moral living,it was to people who were already the people of God, and was a call to recognize God as covenant partner.Peter's sermon fits right into that and moves beyond it;the covenant is gathered up in Christ who turns out to be both its maker and keeper, and that is why repentance is sealed by being baptized into him. D From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 1:45 PMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 12:54 Subject: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Well it is something that needs to be repented of JD; if it is not sin, then why the need to repent? Dead works is something lifeless as opposed to works of righteousness which are the fruit of walking after the spirit. One is dead religion - the other is life and peace. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 17:17:39 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes -- and who said that "repentance from dead works" is speaking of sin, anyway? "Dead works" is that body of works that convinces someone that she is accpted by God RATHER THAN PLACING HER FAITH IN THE CHRIST and allowing Him and Him alone to be glorified in this [saving] function. Bill's comment is brilliant, I think, and as it is attached to Acts 2 -- the best possible understanding of what happened on that First Day. There is no reason to think that the Hebrews writer has something else in mind when he speaks of repentance from the failing effort of self justification. jd From: "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Debbie Sawczak Dead worksis not the same as immorality, which is what I think David means by sin. IMO, that [his equating sin with immorality] is where this false and hence problematic distinction arises between repentance from 'sin' and repentance from a failure to recognize who Christ is. yD From: Lance Muir [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2006 10:01 AMTo: Debbie SawczakSubject: Fw: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 14, 2006 09:38 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Re: repentance: basically, your admitting that Bill's understanding of the Acts passage he postedis correct--i'd agree that's bible teaching however, the point you are trying tomake about it, represented below,is a scripturedog that don't hunt--as usual, itis your own private notion universalized, shot through with geekness butrooted plainly (through contrast) in personalized philosophy,over which you sprinklesome home-brew holy waterlabeled 'Heb 6:1' the issue historically is that you don't study and think much about (e.g.) Heb 6:1 while continually presupposing that it matches your philosophical bias,bec to you it sounds alwayslike it does in the end, it simply ain't bible teaching, Bro On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 23:46:06 -0500 "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:|| Surely you know better than to hang the entire gospel on one's interpretation of one sermon. || Heb. 6:1 says that an elementary principle of the doctrine of Christ is repentance from dead works. This clearly links repentance and sin. || --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006 --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006 --No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006 --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/229 - Release Date: 1/13/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
stunninglybeautiful prose, Pastor On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 20:56:13 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: || repentance from dead works is activity that results in self-justification - we repent from that and , in so doing, turn to the only other alternative, Jesus. ||
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
well, Nineveh was not under the Law. Jonah does not call them to the Law. And it is the Law that defines sin to be sin. Can sin exist apart from the law? Paul says it does. Jonah is certainly not calling them to live their lives as the Jews lived theirs !! jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I'm not surprised since you and Bill are so into culture and all that - but don't bring God into your folly. The pagan Persian City of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Luke 11:32) And what do you suppose his message to them was? From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
I am hoping that the answer is not what I think it is. Perhaps Judy has been right all along in her appraisal of you boys and I am the one who has been thinking too optimistically about your salvation and ontological status in Jesus Christ. DM Is this supposed to matter? -- Original message -- From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lance wrote: DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. Lance, I try not to make assumptions about what other people believe. Let Bill clarify his position first if you don't mind. I don't know whether or not Bill excludes the concept of sin from repentance. If he does, you will be hearing me expound upon our differences. You forget that you and Bill are better read and trained in theological matters. I am ignorant in this area. What seems clear to you is not clear to me. I didn't even notice that there might be a difference in our understanding of the word repentance until subsequent reads of his post prompted by your post claiming that Bill did not answer in the affirmative t hat repentance is part of the gospel. I'm expecting to see some back pedalling by Bill perhaps prompted from private posts by you, or to see Bill clarify his viewpoint on the place of the call to repentance in the preaching of the gospel. If Bill does have an esoteric definition of repentance, then his perspective that most people have no idea what it means to repent takes on many other considerations. Is salvation found in turning away from sin and turing to the person of Jesus Christ, or is it found by changing one's philosophy about the Godhead, from Judaic monotheism to understanding the Trinity! I'm truly still shell shocked that this is where we are at in our discussion. I am hoping that the answer is not what I think it is. Perhaps Judy has been right all along in her appraisal of you boys and I am the one who has been thinking too optimistically about your salvation and ontological status in Jesus Ch rist. David Miller.- Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:56 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?EVERYONE on TT, Judy, believes their observations to be 'rooted and grounded' in Scripture. Each believes, where they are in their journey just now, to have reflected that which the Lord Himself would have them say. I BELIEVE THIS OF YOU. I BELIEVE THIS OF DM. ETC. However, when one encounters duplicity, faulty argumentation, a careless 'reading' of another's 'mail'..then, a corrective must be offered. Also JT, you and DM, rather strangely I would suggest, regularly demean any who acknowledge the contribution of another believer in print. It's almost like suggesting that all sufficiency is to be found in 'God, The Book, and You'. Accessing any other source whatsoe ver is cause for criticism. Now, as to the matter of 'repentance' (please correct me Bill if I'm misrepresenting you on this) DM and Bill have differing understandings. DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 13, 2006 06:29 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes out of a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D-- No virus found in this outgoing message.. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006 -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Death reigned from Adam to Moses and it reigned over Nineveh in Jonah's day.. So obviously the wages of sin is death with or without a written Law. Jonah called on these people to repent and they did do that in sackcloth and ashes... even without theological permission. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:36:00 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: well, Nineveh was not under the Law. Jonah does not call them to the Law. And it is the Law that defines sin to be sin. Can sin exist apart from the law? Paul says it does. Jonah is certainly not calling them to live their lives as the Jews lived theirs !! jd On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I'm not surprised since you and Bill are so into culture and all that - but don't bring God into your folly. The pagan Persian City of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Luke 11:32) And what do you suppose his message to them was? From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
It does to the merciful and caring heart .. Yesit does. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:37:39 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am hoping that the answer is not what I think it is. Perhaps Judy has been right all along in her appraisal of you boys and I am the one who has been thinking too optimistically about your salvation and ontological status in Jesus Christ. DM Is this supposed to matter? From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lance wrote: DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. Lance, I try not to make assumptions about what other people believe. Let Bill clarify his position first if you don't mind. I don't know whether or not Bill excludes the concept of sin from repentance. If he does, you will be hearing me expound upon our differences. You forget that you and Bill are better read and trained in theological matters. I am ignorant in this area. What seems clear to you is not clear to me. I didn't even notice that there might be a difference in our understanding of the word repentance until subsequent reads of his post prompted by your post claiming that Bill did not answer in the affirmative t hat repentance is part of the gospel. I'm expecting to see some back pedalling by Bill perhaps prompted from private posts by you, or to see Bill clarify his viewpoint on the place of the call to repentance in the preaching of the gospel. If Bill does have an esoteric definition of repentance, then his perspective that most people have no idea what it means to repent takes on many other considerations. Is salvation found in turning away from sin and turing to the person of Jesus Christ, or is it found by changing one's philosophy about the Godhead, from Judaic monotheism to understanding the Trinity! I'm truly still shell shocked that this is where we are at in our discussion. I am hoping that the answer is not what I think it is. Perhaps Judy has been right all along in her appraisal of you boys and I am the one who has been thinking too optimistically about your salvation and ontological status in Jesus Ch rist. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:56 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? EVERYONE on TT, Judy, believes their observations to be 'rooted and grounded' in Scripture. Each believes, where they are in their journey just now, to have reflected that which the Lord Himself would have them say. I BELIEVE THIS OF YOU. I BELIEVE THIS OF DM. ETC. However, when one encounters duplicity, faulty argumentation, a careless 'reading' of another's 'mail'..then, a corrective must be offered. Also JT, you and DM, rather strangely I would suggest, regularly demean any who acknowledge the contribution of another believer in print. It's almost like suggesting that all sufficiency is to be found in 'God, The Book, and You'. Accessing any other source whatsoe ver is cause for criticism. Now, as to the matter of 'repentance' (please correct me Bill if I'm misrepresenting you on this) DM and Bill have differing understandings. DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 13, 2006 06:29 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes out of a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, befor
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
But aren't you the one who preaches that one cannot do the works of God without the Spirit of God? jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Death reigned from Adam to Moses and it reigned over Nineveh in Jonah's day.. So obviously the wages of sin is death with or without a written Law. Jonah called on these people to repent and they did do that in sackcloth and ashes... even without theological permission. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:36:00 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: well, Nineveh was not under the Law. Jonah does not call them to the Law. And it is the Law that defines sin to be sin. Can sin exist apart from the law? Paul says it does. Jonah is certainly not calling them to live their lives as the Jews lived theirs !! jd On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I'm not surprised since you and Bill are so into culture and all that - but don't bring God into your folly. The pagan Persian City of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Luke 11:32) And what do you suppose his message to them was? From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
By the way -- ae yo going to answer my question aobut your belief regarding the deity of Christ? Was He God before He became flesh? Was (is) He God afterwards? If God is the same yesterday, today and forever, how can this be? Please answer. jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] It does to the merciful and caring heart .. Yesit does. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:37:39 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am hoping that the answer is not what I think it is. Perhaps Judy has been right all along in her appraisal of you boys and I am the one who has been thinking too optimistically about your salvation and ontological status in Jesus Christ. DM Is this supposed to matter? From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Lance wrote: DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. Lance, I try not to make assumptions about what other people believe. Let Bill clarify his position first if you don't mind. I don't know whether or not Bill excludes the concept of sin from repentance. If he does, you will be hearing me expound upon our differences. You forget that you and Bill are better read and trained in theological matters. I am ignorant in this area. What seems clear to you is not clear to me. I didn't even notice that there might be a difference in our understanding of the word repentance until subsequent reads of his post prompted by your post claiming that Bill did not answer in the affirmative t hat repentance is part of the gospel. I'm expecting to see some back pedalling by Bill perhaps prompted from private posts by you, or to see Bill clarify his viewpoint on the place of the call to repentance in the preaching of the gospel. If Bill does have an esoteric definition of repentance, then his perspective that most people have no idea what it means to repent takes on many other considerations. Is salvation found in turning away from sin and turing to the person of Jesus Christ, or is it found by changing one's philosophy about the Godhead, from Judaic monotheism to understanding the Trinity! I'm truly still shell shocked that this is where we are at in our discussion. I am hoping that the answer is not what I think it is. Perhaps Judy has been right all along in her appraisal of you boys and I am the one who has been thinking too optimistically about your salvation and ontological status in Jesus Ch rist. David Miller. ; - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:56 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?EVERYONE on TT, Judy, believes their observations to be 'rooted and grounded' in Scripture. Each believes, where they are in their journey just now, to have reflected that which the Lord Himself would have them say. I BELIEVE THIS OF YOU. I BELIEVE THIS OF DM. ETC. However, when one encounters duplicity, faulty argumentation, a careless 'reading' of another's 'mail'..then, a corrective must be offered. Also JT, you and DM, rather strangely I would suggest, regularly demean any who acknowledge the contribution of another believer in print. It's almost like suggesting that all sufficiency is to be found in 'God, The Book, and You'. Accessing any other source whatsoe ver is cause for criticism. ; Now, as to the matter of 'repentance' (please correct me Bill if I'm misrepresenting you on this) DM and Bill have differing understandings. DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 13, 2006 06:29 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes out of a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: From: Debbie Sawcz ak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Yes ... and Jonah was called by God andanointed to speak bythe Spirit of God.. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 23:15:38 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But aren't you the one who preaches that one cannot do the works of God without the Spirit of God? jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Death reigned from Adam to Moses and it reigned over Nineveh in Jonah's day.. So obviously the wages of sin is death with or without a written Law. Jonah called on these people to repent and they did do that in sackcloth and ashes... even without theological permission. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:36:00 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: well, Nineveh was not under the Law. Jonah does not call them to the Law. And it is the Law that defines sin to be sin. Can sin exist apart from the law? Paul says it does. Jonah is certainly not calling them to live their lives as the Jews lived theirs !! jd On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I'm not surprised since you and Bill are so into culture and all that - but don't bring God into your folly. The pagan Persian City of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Luke 11:32) And what do you suppose his message to them was? From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
And what does that have to do with the people of Nineveh? They don't have to have the Spirit to do right as long as the preacher has the Spirit? jd -- Original message -- From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes ... and Jonah was called by God andanointed to speak bythe Spirit of God.. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 23:15:38 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But aren't you the one who preaches that one cannot do the works of God without the Spirit of God? jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Death reigned from Adam to Moses and it reigned over Nineveh in Jonah's day.. So obviously the wages of sin is death with or without a written Law. Jonah called on these people to repent and they did do that in sackcloth and ashes... even without theological permission. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:36:00 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: well, Nineveh was not under the Law. Jonah does not call them to the Law. And it is the Law that defines sin to be sin. Can sin exist apart from the law? Paul says it does. Jonah is certainly not calling them to live their lives as the Jews lived theirs !! jd On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I'm not surprised since you and Bill are so into culture and all that - but don't bring God into your folly. The pagan Persian City of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Luke 11:32) And what do you suppose his message to them was? From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
God is the Creator of the ppl in Nineveh also and He is merciful and longsuffering enough to want to give them one more chance which they took for a measure of time even though they regressedlater and were eventually destroyed. Their response to Jonah's warningbought them sometime but unfortunately they did not gain eternity. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 23:24:19 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And what does that have to do with the people of Nineveh? They don't have to have the Spirit to do right as long as the preacher has the Spirit? jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yes ... and Jonah was called by God andanointed to speak bythe Spirit of God.. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 23:15:38 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But aren't you the one who preaches that one cannot do the works of God without the Spirit of God? jd From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] Death reigned from Adam to Moses and it reigned over Nineveh in Jonah's day.. So obviously the wages of sin is death with or without a written Law. Jonah called on these people to repent and they did do that in sackcloth and ashes... even without theological permission. On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 21:36:00 + [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: well, Nineveh was not under the Law. Jonah does not call them to the Law. And it is the Law that defines sin to be sin. Can sin exist apart from the law? Paul says it does. Jonah is certainly not calling them to live their lives as the Jews lived theirs !! jd On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I'm not surprised since you and Bill are so into culture and all that - but don't bring God into your folly. The pagan Persian City of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Luke 11:32) And what do you suppose his message to them was? From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
EVERYONE on TT, Judy, believes their observations to be 'rooted and grounded' in Scripture. Each believes, where they are in their journey just now, to have reflected that which the Lord Himself would have them say.I BELIEVE THIS OF YOU. I BELIEVE THIS OF DM. ETC. However, when one encounters duplicity, faulty argumentation, a careless 'reading' of another's 'mail'..then, a corrective must be offered. Also JT, you and DM, rather strangely I would suggest, regularly demean any who acknowledge the contribution of another believer in print. It's almost like suggesting that all sufficiency is to be found in 'God, The Book, and You'. Accessing any other source whatsoever is cause for criticism. Now, as to the matter of 'repentance' (please correct me Bill if I'm misrepresenting you on this) DM and Bill have differing understandings. DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 13, 2006 06:29 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERYONE on TT, Judy, believes their observations to be 'rooted and grounded' in Scripture. Each believes, where they are in their journey just now, to have reflected that which the Lord Himself would have them say.I BELIEVE THIS OF YOU. I BELIEVE THIS OF DM. ETC. Yes However, when one encounters duplicity, faulty argumentation, a careless 'reading' of another's 'mail'..then, a corrective must be offered. Also JT, you and DM, rather strangely I would suggest, regularly demean any who acknowledge the contribution of another believer in print. I can't relate to the above accusation since I don't recall either myself or DM demeaning anyone at all, much less regularly It's almost like suggesting that all sufficiency is to be found in 'God, The Book, and You'. Accessing any other source whatsoever is cause for criticism. I see you put your own spin on it Lance. DM reads other books and I do also even quoting them at times. However, I don't look to them as a source of Truth and this is the difference. Now, as to the matter of 'repentance' (please correct me Bill if I'm misrepresenting you on this) DM and Bill have differing understandings. DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I don't know what DM has to say about this but IMO Bill like your "D" has a view that is rooted in Calvinism. From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
You've provided me with an excellent illustration, JT. Neither 'my "D" (as you now refer to her..DM's "D" also JT as he longs for her return to TT. Did you know that?) Though both 'D" and Bill would possess much more of a genuine understanding of Calvin 'in their pinky fingers' (a DM saying I shall reference often)than you would should you read him for the balance of your life, neither of them is 'a Calvinist'. Did you know that even Calvin was not a 'Calvinist'? (I say this based on post-Calvin Calvinism). As an addendum to the 'ism' thingy, let me suggest that 'Strongism' may be much more hazardous to your spiritual health than almost any other 'ism'. I commend to you and DM a more gentle spirit wherein you listen to that which the Lord has to say to you both. Don't be so occupied with tearing down. Be kinder and gentler JT DM. You are NOT INSPIRED just plain old servants of the Living God along with the rest of us. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 13, 2006 07:36 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERYONE on TT, Judy, believes their observations to be 'rooted and grounded' in Scripture. Each believes, where they are in their journey just now, to have reflected that which the Lord Himself would have them say.I BELIEVE THIS OF YOU. I BELIEVE THIS OF DM. ETC. Yes However, when one encounters duplicity, faulty argumentation, a careless 'reading' of another's 'mail'..then, a corrective must be offered. Also JT, you and DM, rather strangely I would suggest, regularly demean any who acknowledge the contribution of another believer in print. I can't relate to the above accusation since I don't recall either myself or DM demeaning anyone at all, much less regularly It's almost like suggesting that all sufficiency is to be found in 'God, The Book, and You'. Accessing any other source whatsoever is cause for criticism. I see you put your own spin on it Lance. DM reads other books and I do also even quoting them at times. However, I don't look to them as a source of Truth and this is the difference. Now, as to the matter of 'repentance' (please correct me Bill if I'm misrepresenting you on this) DM and Bill have differing understandings. DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I don't know what DM has to say about this but IMO Bill like your "D" has a view that is rooted in Calvinism. From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I'm not surprised since you and Bill are so into culture and all that - but don't bring God into your folly. The pagan Persian City of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Luke 11:32) And what do you suppose his message to them was? From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Lance wrote: DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. Lance, I try not to make assumptions about what other people believe. Let Bill clarify his position first if you don't mind. I don't know whether or not Bill excludes the concept of sin from repentance. If he does, you will be hearing me expound upon our differences. You forget that you and Bill are better read and trained in theological matters. I am ignorant in this area. What seems clear to you is not clear to me. I didn't even notice that there might be a difference in our understanding of the word repentance until subsequent reads of his post prompted by your post claiming that Bill did not answer in the affirmative that repentance is part of the gospel. I'm expecting to see some back pedalling by Bill perhaps prompted from private posts by you, or to see Bill clarify his viewpoint on the place of the call to repentance in the preaching of the gospel. If Bill does have an esoteric definition of repentance, then his perspective that most people have no idea what it means to repent takes on many other considerations. Is salvation found in turning away from sin and turing to the person of Jesus Christ, or is it found by changing one's philosophy about the Godhead, from Judaic monotheism to understanding the Trinity! I'm truly still shell shocked that this is where we are at in our discussion. I am hoping that the answer is not what I think it is. Perhaps Judy has been right all along in her appraisal of you boys and I am the one who has been thinking too optimistically about your salvation and ontological status in Jesus Christ. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:56 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? EVERYONE on TT, Judy, believes their observations to be 'rooted and grounded' in Scripture. Each believes, where they are in their journey just now, to have reflected that which the Lord Himself would have them say. I BELIEVE THIS OF YOU. I BELIEVE THIS OF DM. ETC. However, when one encounters duplicity, faulty argumentation, a careless 'reading' of another's 'mail'..then, a corrective must be offered. Also JT, you and DM, rather strangely I would suggest, regularly demean any who acknowledge the contribution of another believer in print. It's almost like suggesting that all sufficiency is to be found in 'God, The Book, and You'. Accessing any other source whatsoever is cause for criticism. Now, as to the matter of 'repentance' (please correct me Bill if I'm misrepresenting you on this) DM and Bill have differing understandings. DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 13, 2006 06:29 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of total depravity and this comes out of a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006 -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
"Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 5:51 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I'm not surprised since you and Bill are so into culture and all that - but don't bring God into your folly. The pagan Persian City of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Luke 11:32) And what do you suppose his message to them was? From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:52:22 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You've provided me with an excellent illustration, JT. Neither 'my "D" (as you now refer to her..DM's "D" also JT as he longs for her return to TT. Did you know that?) Though both 'D" and Bill would possess much more of a genuine understanding of Calvin 'in their pinky fingers' (a DM saying I shall reference often)than you would should you read him for the balance of your life, neither of them is 'a Calvinist'. I did not say that Bill or your "D" were Calvinists Lance and am not impressed by the volume of his writings they understand. What I am saying is that they have his concept of how and when 'repentance' happens. He believed that because of 'total depravity' (which is a Calvinistic construct) men are unable to repent until Christ receives them or they receive Christ. Did you know that even Calvin was not a 'Calvinist'? (I say this based on post-Calvin Calvinism). As an addendum to the 'ism' thingy, let me suggest that 'Strongism' may be much more hazardous to your spiritual health than almost any other 'ism'. Do you suggest I change to Youngs or Crudens? I commend to you and DM a more gentle spirit wherein you listen to that which the Lord has to say to you both. Don't be so occupied with tearing down. Be kinder and gentler JT DM. You are NOT INSPIRED just plain old servants of the Living God along with the rest of us. What good is an uninspired servant? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERYONE on TT, Judy, believes their observations to be 'rooted and grounded' in Scripture. Each believes, where they are in their journey just now, to have reflected that which the Lord Himself would have them say.I BELIEVE THIS OF YOU. I BELIEVE THIS OF DM. ETC. Yes However, when one encounters duplicity, faulty argumentation, a careless 'reading' of another's 'mail'..then, a corrective must be offered. Also JT, you and DM, rather strangely I would suggest, regularly demean any who acknowledge the contribution of another believer in print. I can't relate to the above accusation since I don't recall either myself or DM demeaning anyone at all, much less regularly It's almost like suggesting that all sufficiency is to be found in 'God, The Book, and You'. Accessing any other source whatsoever is cause for criticism. I see you put your own spin on it Lance. DM reads other books and I do also even quoting them at times. However, I don't look to them as a source of Truth and this is the difference. Now, as to the matter of 'repentance' (please correct me Bill if I'm misrepresenting you on this) DM and Bill have differing understandings. DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I don't know what DM has to say about this but IMO Bill like your "D" has a view that is rooted in Calvinism. From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Did their paganism and total lack of Godly comprehension keep them from repenting? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:16:17 -0700 "Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I'm not surprised since you and Bill are so into culture and all that - but don't bring God into your folly. The pagan Persian City of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Luke 11:32) And what do you suppose his message to them was? From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
A fair last question. You, JT, ask and answer that question in your writings on TT daily. (i.e. not much good) - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 13, 2006 08:04 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:52:22 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You've provided me with an excellent illustration, JT. Neither 'my "D" (as you now refer to her..DM's "D" also JT as he longs for her return to TT. Did you know that?) Though both 'D" and Bill would possess much more of a genuine understanding of Calvin 'in their pinky fingers' (a DM saying I shall reference often)than you would should you read him for the balance of your life, neither of them is 'a Calvinist'. I did not say that Bill or your "D" were Calvinists Lance and am not impressed by the volume of his writings they understand. What I am saying is that they have his concept of how and when 'repentance' happens. He believed that because of 'total depravity' (which is a Calvinistic construct) men are unable to repent until Christ receives them or they receive Christ. Did you know that even Calvin was not a 'Calvinist'? (I say this based on post-Calvin Calvinism). As an addendum to the 'ism' thingy, let me suggest that 'Strongism' may be much more hazardous to your spiritual health than almost any other 'ism'. Do you suggest I change to Youngs or Crudens? I commend to you and DM a more gentle spirit wherein you listen to that which the Lord has to say to you both. Don't be so occupied with tearing down. Be kinder and gentler JT DM. You are NOT INSPIRED just plain old servants of the Living God along with the rest of us. What good is an uninspired servant? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERYONE on TT, Judy, believes their observations to be 'rooted and grounded' in Scripture. Each believes, where they are in their journey just now, to have reflected that which the Lord Himself would have them say.I BELIEVE THIS OF YOU. I BELIEVE THIS OF DM. ETC. Yes However, when one encounters duplicity, faulty argumentation, a careless 'reading' of another's 'mail'..then, a corrective must be offered. Also JT, you and DM, rather strangely I would suggest, regularly demean any who acknowledge the contribution of another believer in print. I can't relate to the above accusation since I don't recall either myself or DM demeaning anyone at all, much less regularly It's almost like suggesting that all sufficiency is to be found in 'God, The Book, and You'. Accessing any other source whatsoever is cause for criticism. I see you put your own spin on it Lance. DM reads other books and I do also even quoting them at times. However, I don't look to them as a source of Truth and this is the difference. Now, as to the matter of 'repentance' (please correct me Bill if I'm misrepresenting you on this) DM and Bill have differing understandings. DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I don't know what DM has to say about this but IMO Bill like your "D" has a view that is rooted in Calvinism. From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Now Lance this is a good of example of who cuts off dialogue ... constantly. What I wrote is not ad hom - neither is it misrepresentation. Both of you constantly evaluate everything through both culture and vocabulary type eyeglasses. I would call your characterization of myself, Izzy, DavidM, Kevin and Dean as fundamentalists much more of an ad hom and misrepresentative statement. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:08:23 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 'since you and Bill are so into culture and all that'. Your posts are rife with ad homs and misrepresentations that it isn't even worth the time to offer a corrective so On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I'm not surprised since you and Bill are so into culture and all that - but don't bring God into your folly. The pagan Persian City of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Luke 11:32) And what do you suppose his message to them was? From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
No backpedaling, David: turning from sin is subsidiary to genuine repentance. I will explain further later. In the meantime why don't you read Peter's sermon in Acts 2, asking yourself what prompted his hearers' question: What shall we do? (v37) - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:04 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Lance wrote: DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. Lance, I try not to make assumptions about what other people believe. Let Bill clarify his position first if you don't mind. I don't know whether or not Bill excludes the concept of sin from repentance. If he does, you will be hearing me expound upon our differences. You forget that you and Bill are better read and trained in theological matters. I am ignorant in this area. What seems clear to you is not clear to me. I didn't even notice that there might be a difference in our understanding of the word repentance until subsequent reads of his post prompted by your post claiming that Bill did not answer in the affirmative that repentance is part of the gospel. I'm expecting to see some back pedalling by Bill perhaps prompted from private posts by you, or to see Bill clarify his viewpoint on the place of the call to repentance in the preaching of the gospel. If Bill does have an esoteric definition of repentance, then his perspective that most people have no idea what it means to repent takes on many other considerations. Is salvation found in turning away from sin and turing to the person of Jesus Christ, or is it found by changing one's philosophy about the Godhead, from Judaic monotheism to understanding the Trinity! I'm truly still shell shocked that this is where we are at in our discussion. I am hoping that the answer is not what I think it is. Perhaps Judy has been right all along in her appraisal of you boys and I am the one who has been thinking too optimistically about your salvation and ontological status in Jesus Christ. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:56 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? EVERYONE on TT, Judy, believes their observations to be 'rooted and grounded' in Scripture. Each believes, where they are in their journey just now, to have reflected that which the Lord Himself would have them say. I BELIEVE THIS OF YOU. I BELIEVE THIS OF DM. ETC. However, when one encounters duplicity, faulty argumentation, a careless 'reading' of another's 'mail'..then, a corrective must be offered. Also JT, you and DM, rather strangely I would suggest, regularly demean any who acknowledge the contribution of another believer in print. It's almost like suggesting that all sufficiency is to be found in 'God, The Book, and You'. Accessing any other source whatsoever is cause for criticism. Now, as to the matter of 'repentance' (please correct me Bill if I'm misrepresenting you on this) DM and Bill have differing understandings. DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 13, 2006 06:29 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of total depravity and this comes out of a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006 -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
'since you and Bill are so into culture and all that'. Your posts are rife with ad homs and misrepresentations that it isn't even worth the time to offer a corrective so - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 13, 2006 07:51 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I'm not surprised since you and Bill are so into culture and all that - but don't bring God into your folly. The pagan Persian City of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Luke 11:32) And what do you suppose his message to them was? From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
One thing I will say about you Lance, and this is an observation rather than ad hom. You are a MASTER of the put down. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:10:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A fair last question. You, JT, ask and answer that question in your writings on TT daily. (i.e. not much good) On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:52:22 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You've provided me with an excellent illustration, JT. Neither 'my "D" (as you now refer to her..DM's "D" also JT as he longs for her return to TT. Did you know that?) Though both 'D" and Bill would possess much more of a genuine understanding of Calvin 'in their pinky fingers' (a DM saying I shall reference often)than you would should you read him for the balance of your life, neither of them is 'a Calvinist'. I did not say that Bill or your "D" were Calvinists Lance and am not impressed by the volume of his writings they understand. What I am saying is that they have his concept of how and when 'repentance' happens. He believed that because of 'total depravity' (which is a Calvinistic construct) men are unable to repent until Christ receives them or they receive Christ. Did you know that even Calvin was not a 'Calvinist'? (I say this based on post-Calvin Calvinism). As an addendum to the 'ism' thingy, let me suggest that 'Strongism' may be much more hazardous to your spiritual health than almost any other 'ism'. Do you suggest I change to Youngs or Crudens? I commend to you and DM a more gentle spirit wherein you listen to that which the Lord has to say to you both. Don't be so occupied with tearing down. Be kinder and gentler JT DM. You are NOT INSPIRED just plain old servants of the Living God along with the rest of us. What good is an uninspired servant? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERYONE on TT, Judy, believes their observations to be 'rooted and grounded' in Scripture. Each believes, where they are in their journey just now, to have reflected that which the Lord Himself would have them say.I BELIEVE THIS OF YOU. I BELIEVE THIS OF DM. ETC. Yes However, when one encounters duplicity, faulty argumentation, a careless 'reading' of another's 'mail'..then, a corrective must be offered. Also JT, you and DM, rather strangely I would suggest, regularly demean any who acknowledge the contribution of another believer in print. I can't relate to the above accusation since I don't recall either myself or DM demeaning anyone at all, much less regularly It's almost like suggesting that all sufficiency is to be found in 'God, The Book, and You'. Accessing any other source whatsoever is cause for criticism. I see you put your own spin on it Lance. DM reads other books and I do also even quoting them at times. However, I don't look to them as a source of Truth and this is the difference. Now, as to the matter of 'repentance' (please correct me Bill if I'm misrepresenting you on this) DM and Bill have differing understandings. DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I don't know what DM has to say about this but IMO Bill like your "D" has a view that is rooted in Calvinism. From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
"Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown." - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 5:51 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I'm not surprised since you and Bill are so into culture and all that - but don't bring God into your folly. The pagan Persian City of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Jonah (Luke 11:32) And what do you suppose his message to them was? From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D --No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006 -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by Plains.Net, and is believed to be clean.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Bill wrote: ... turning from sin is subsidiary to genuine repentance. I'm glad to hear you say this Bill. Perhaps Lance is the one who disagrees then. Either that, or he misunderstands. Bill wrote: ... read Peter's sermon in Acts 2, asking yourself what prompted his hearers' question: What shall we do? (v37) It appears to me that they were convicted of their sin of having crucified Jesus. Peter got a little personal. He said, God hath made that same Jesus, whom YE have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Kind of sounds like Street Preaching to me. :-) David Miller -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Thanks Jt but, I can't hold a candle to you, IMO. You just appear not to know you're doing it, whereas I actually do. (know that you're doing it) - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 13, 2006 08:28 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? One thing I will say about you Lance, and this is an observation rather than ad hom. You are a MASTER of the put down. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:10:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A fair last question. You, JT, ask and answer that question in your writings on TT daily. (i.e. not much good) On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 07:52:22 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You've provided me with an excellent illustration, JT. Neither 'my "D" (as you now refer to her..DM's "D" also JT as he longs for her return to TT. Did you know that?) Though both 'D" and Bill would possess much more of a genuine understanding of Calvin 'in their pinky fingers' (a DM saying I shall reference often)than you would should you read him for the balance of your life, neither of them is 'a Calvinist'. I did not say that Bill or your "D" were Calvinists Lance and am not impressed by the volume of his writings they understand. What I am saying is that they have his concept of how and when 'repentance' happens. He believed that because of 'total depravity' (which is a Calvinistic construct) men are unable to repent until Christ receives them or they receive Christ. Did you know that even Calvin was not a 'Calvinist'? (I say this based on post-Calvin Calvinism). As an addendum to the 'ism' thingy, let me suggest that 'Strongism' may be much more hazardous to your spiritual health than almost any other 'ism'. Do you suggest I change to Youngs or Crudens? I commend to you and DM a more gentle spirit wherein you listen to that which the Lord has to say to you both. Don't be so occupied with tearing down. Be kinder and gentler JT DM. You are NOT INSPIRED just plain old servants of the Living God along with the rest of us. What good is an uninspired servant? On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:56:35 -0500 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EVERYONE on TT, Judy, believes their observations to be 'rooted and grounded' in Scripture. Each believes, where they are in their journey just now, to have reflected that which the Lord Himself would have them say.I BELIEVE THIS OF YOU. I BELIEVE THIS OF DM. ETC. Yes However, when one encounters duplicity, faulty argumentation, a careless 'reading' of another's 'mail'..then, a corrective must be offered. Also JT, you and DM, rather strangely I would suggest, regularly demean any who acknowledge the contribution of another believer in print. I can't relate to the above accusation since I don't recall either myself or DM demeaning anyone at all, much less regularly It's almost like suggesting that all sufficiency is to be found in 'God, The Book, and You'. Accessing any other source whatsoever is cause for criticism. I see you put your own spin on it Lance. DM reads other books and I do also even quoting them at times. However, I don't look to them as a source of Truth and this is the difference. Now, as to the matter of 'repentance' (please correct me Bill if I'm misrepresenting you on this) DM and Bill have differing understandings. DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. I don't know what DM has to say about this but IMO Bill like your "D" has a view that is rooted in Calvinism. From: Judy Taylor How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of "total depravity" and this comes outof
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Perhaps not, David. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 13, 2006 08:58 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Bill wrote: ... turning from sin is subsidiary to genuine repentance. I'm glad to hear you say this Bill. Perhaps Lance is the one who disagrees then. Either that, or he misunderstands. Bill wrote: ... read Peter's sermon in Acts 2, asking yourself what prompted his hearers' question: What shall we do? (v37) It appears to me that they were convicted of their sin of having crucified Jesus. Peter got a little personal. He said, God hath made that same Jesus, whom YE have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Kind of sounds like Street Preaching to me. :-) David Miller -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
FALSE HUMILITY, DM!! 'you and Bill are better read andtrained in theological matters'. You are, for a self-taught person, well read yourself. - Original Message - From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 13, 2006 08:04 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? Lance wrote: DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. Lance, I try not to make assumptions about what other people believe. Let Bill clarify his position first if you don't mind. I don't know whether or not Bill excludes the concept of sin from repentance. If he does, you will be hearing me expound upon our differences. You forget that you and Bill are better read and trained in theological matters. I am ignorant in this area. What seems clear to you is not clear to me. I didn't even notice that there might be a difference in our understanding of the word repentance until subsequent reads of his post prompted by your post claiming that Bill did not answer in the affirmative that repentance is part of the gospel. I'm expecting to see some back pedalling by Bill perhaps prompted from private posts by you, or to see Bill clarify his viewpoint on the place of the call to repentance in the preaching of the gospel. If Bill does have an esoteric definition of repentance, then his perspective that most people have no idea what it means to repent takes on many other considerations. Is salvation found in turning away from sin and turing to the person of Jesus Christ, or is it found by changing one's philosophy about the Godhead, from Judaic monotheism to understanding the Trinity! I'm truly still shell shocked that this is where we are at in our discussion. I am hoping that the answer is not what I think it is. Perhaps Judy has been right all along in her appraisal of you boys and I am the one who has been thinking too optimistically about your salvation and ontological status in Jesus Christ. David Miller. - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 6:56 AM Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? EVERYONE on TT, Judy, believes their observations to be 'rooted and grounded' in Scripture. Each believes, where they are in their journey just now, to have reflected that which the Lord Himself would have them say. I BELIEVE THIS OF YOU. I BELIEVE THIS OF DM. ETC. However, when one encounters duplicity, faulty argumentation, a careless 'reading' of another's 'mail'..then, a corrective must be offered. Also JT, you and DM, rather strangely I would suggest, regularly demean any who acknowledge the contribution of another believer in print. It's almost like suggesting that all sufficiency is to be found in 'God, The Book, and You'. Accessing any other source whatsoever is cause for criticism. Now, as to the matter of 'repentance' (please correct me Bill if I'm misrepresenting you on this) DM and Bill have differing understandings. DM should, IMO, acknowledge, clarify, and expound that difference then, just move on. I'm with Bill on this one. God is with Bill on this one, IMO, of course. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 13, 2006 06:29 Subject: Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel? How interesting - Debbie Sawzak is of a Calvinistic bent; because after all it is his doctrine that claims one must be regenerated before it is possible to repent because of total depravity and this comes out of a misunderstanding of the spiritual realities involved. On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:21:05 -0500 Lance Muir [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: From: Debbie Sawczak Is repentance part of the Gospel? Yes, the NT is replete with directives to repent. But repentance is not a means by which or through which people are saved. It is Jesus Christ who is our Savior. Salvation is in him, complete with mediation on our behalf. Repentance is therefore our response to the greatest news the world has ever heard; it is our response to the good news of Jesus Christ. Amen. Lance, I now see what you meant today about the exchange bw Bill and David, having read the full message from Bill. The above is the crux, isn't it? It (esp the part I bolded) reminds me of what Victor said numerous times in his Human Person course: I know Christ first of all, before anything else, as my Saviour. The accountability, the repentance, arise out of that. D -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.17/226 - Release Date: 1/10/2006 -- Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man. (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Bill wrote:... read Peter's sermon in Acts 2, asking yourself what prompted his hearers' question: "What shallwe do?" (v37) DM It appears to me that they were convicted of their sin of having crucifiedJesus. BT The call to repentance, then, was a call for them to change their minds about the person of Jesus. In other words, it was a call to belief in him as theirLORD and Christ. DM Peter got a little personal. He said, "God hath made that sameJesus, whom YE have crucified, both Lord and Christ." BT Exactly, prior to that point they did not believe Jesus was who he claimed to be. They would not have crucified him if they had believed he were those things.IF they were now to realign themselves with truth, they would have to change their beliefs concerning who he was.. . . . . which brings us to the main point of Peter's sermon.Please consider this with me: the Hebrew speaking Jews present that day would have heard Peter saying to them that "Elohim hath made that same Yeshua . . . both Yahweh and Messiah." Does this mean that God made Jesus divine?No, it means that Elohim -- a plural noun; hence it being a triunedecision --made Yeshua the one whom the Jewshad been worshiping throughout their historyas apeople. Peter is saying to them that the one whom they had nailed to the cross was the very covenant-keeping YHWH of their fathers. Hence they were cut to the heart and feared greatly. What must they do? they asked. They must change their minds about this Jesus and be baptized (in his name no less!) into the forgiveness of sins, whereupon they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. To shift the emphasis from this to a general call to turn from sin, which is what most preaching on repentance entails, is to miss the thrust of Peter's sermon: that this Jesus whom they had crucified was in fact theirLORD andChrist; it is therefore to miss the primary aspect of repentance --that they believe in this Yahweh who saves --and to make that which is now but a subsidiary, although an important one,themain point, thus changing the thrust of the Gospel. Bill
Re: Fw: [TruthTalk] What is the gospel?
Bill wrote: Please consider this with me: the Hebrew speaking Jews present that day would have heard Peter saying to them that Elohim hath made that same Yeshua . . . both Yahweh and Messiah. Does this mean that God made Jesus divine? No, it means that Elohim -- a plural noun; hence it being a triune decision -- made Yeshua the one whom the Jews had been worshiping throughout their history as a people. Peter is saying to them that the one whom they had nailed to the cross was the very covenant- keeping YHWH of their fathers. Hence they were cut to the heart and feared greatly. What must they do? they asked. They must change their minds about this Jesus and be baptized (in his name no less!) into the forgiveness of sins, whereupon they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The Hebraic-Roots Version translates Acts 2:36 as: Truly therefore, let know all the house of Yisra'el that YHWH and the Messiah has made Eloah this Yeshua, whom you crucified. So I'm not sure about your emphasis on Elohim and the triune decision. Bill wrote: To shift the emphasis from this to a general call to turn from sin, which is what most preaching on repentance entails, is to miss the thrust of Peter's sermon: that this Jesus whom they had crucified was in fact their LORD and Christ; it is therefore to miss the primary aspect of repentance -- that they believe in this Yahweh who saves -- and to make that which is now but a subsidiary, although an important one, the main point, thus changing the thrust of the Gospel. Surely you know better than to hang the entire gospel on one's interpretation of one sermon. We are not told the entire message of Peter, so we don't really know all the things Peter hammered upon concerning repentance. I'm not going to quibble with you about your putting an emphasis upon people changing their minds about who Jesus is. It is important! I would not quibble with you in saying that repentance from sin is subsidiary to repenting about one's attitude toward Jesus. On the other hand, if you are going to quibble about preachers who might sometimes put the emphasis on repenting from sin, repenting from their evil deeds, then you will hear some comment from me on that. Heb. 6:1 says that an elementary principle of the doctrine of Christ is repentance from dead works. This clearly links repentance and sin. Many other passages likewise do the same. For example: Revelation 16:11 (11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds. Revelation 9:21 (21) Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. Revelation 2:21-23 (21) And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. (22) Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. (23) And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 2 Corinthians 12:21 (21) And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. Paul makes a connection between repentance and works in his appeal to Agrippa: Acts 26:19-20 (19) Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: (20) But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. We have to understand the difference between a sowing ministry and a reaping ministry. They are not the same. They have a different emphasis. John the Baptist represents the sowing ministry. It is the Elijah ministry. It is also a last days ministry. It prepares the way for the Lord. The focus of it is upon sin, righteousness, and the judgment to come. Consider what Jesus taught in the following passage: John 4:37-38 (37) And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. (38) I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours. Clearly, such a passage reveals how God uses different men and different ministries to effect his work. Even Jesus reaped where he had not sown. John the Baptist prepared the way before him. Therefore, it is not good for any who might focus upon the reaping ministry to be schismatic toward the one in the sowing ministry. Someone has to plow up the soil, break it up, and plant the seed. Someone else comes along and reaps what was sown. Different tools and different methods are used in both works, but both works are of the Lord. I think we should agree that repentance is part
