Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Steve Willoughby]

Steve Willoughby wrote:
Likewise, there's a reason the IDE environments like Visual Studio or 
Eclipse, and pointy-clicky-WYSIWYG editing tools exist.  They're much 
easier for beginners to learn, not as intimidating, but in the end they 


For example, I use pyWin or IDLE all the time if I want to play 
interactively with the interpreter or demonstrate a really simple thing. 
 If I go to write a 10,000-line or 50,000-line application you can bet 
money it will be with vim or emacs (or maybe eclipse but usually not 
even that).


On the other hand, I'm teaching some people in my family how to program 
computers, and for the time being they have enough to learn just 
mastering the basics.  They're using IDLE and pyWin.  Those are easy, 
obvious how to do what they need to do, and can focus on learning Python 
itself without remembering what key does what in the editor.


I love those simpler, more visual, editors for situations like that.
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Steve Willoughby]

As a meta-comment on this discussion (hopefully to avoid fueling the 
editor holy war further), there's a reason sophisticated editors such as 
vi[m] and EMACS (and a dozen others I could name) exist and remain 
popular so long after they were introduced (which may well have been 
longer ago than some on this list have been alive).  They tend to be 
very, very, very good at doing certain things with text.


Complaints about not liking the style of the interface or standard 
keybindings are understandable, but generally with these sophisticated 
tools, it's possible to completely redefine all of those elements to 
suit your personal style anyway.


However, in my experience, complaints about these editors lacking 
capability or being too awkward to really use effectively generally stem 
from a lack of experience or in-depth knowledge of how to use those 
tools.  I've heard many people say how they can't believe people would 
struggle through using vi when it's so fast and easy to use a mouse and 
easy-to-remember keys and menus, and how much faster they can perform 
their editing operations that way.  And many times when I've worked with 
them on something and fired up vi and started flying all over the 
document changing things, or using the more powerful commands to make 
transformations over the whole text with a few keystrokes, I've heard 
"I... didn't know you could DO that!"  (and I know people who know vi 
much, much better than I do).  Like any complex tool, the time you 
invest in learning how to *really* harness its power will pay off.


Likewise, there's a reason the IDE environments like Visual Studio or 
Eclipse, and pointy-clicky-WYSIWYG editing tools exist.  They're much 
easier for beginners to learn, not as intimidating, but in the end they 
don't pay off with anywhere close to the amount of 
text-document-altering power.  Their payoff is in another arena... 
things like having an IDE write giant chunks of boilerplate code for 
you, or making it easy for people whose editing needs are just to tweak 
a few lines here and there in an existing document (like an 
auto-generated template from the IDE).


They're just tools.  Pick the ones that work for the jobs you need to 
get done, but don't assume that the other ones are pointless.  They may 
either have points you don't need, or you may not have realized their 
importance yet.


--steve
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Alan Gauld]

"Lie Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote


No offense (to you and to other vi(m) fans),


No offense taken, as I said right at the beginning of this
thread, editors are a religious battleground for
programmers and elicit very personal reactions.
Personally I use over a dozen editors on a regular basis
but only about 3 or 4 heavily - all of which are quite
different in style.

not in their subconsciousness -- humans think visually when 
navigating

(up is located somewhere higher than down)[2].


Actually humans think in lots of different ways. Programmers
tend not to think visually but verbally (or more accuratelty
symbolically) which is one reason so called visual programming
environments have failed to take off!


[2] That's why no TV remote put their buttons in this arrangements:


Some do, I used to own one (a Philips as I recall)! :-)

they think that programmers insert texts less often than changing 
text?

I'm not sure, probably that's their workflow.


It's not so much "changing" its navigating. Studies have shown that
programmers spend most of their time going back over code they
have alrweady written (or someone else has) and making small
changes. Thats exactly where vi/vim excels. In fact when I used
to work exclusively on Unix I used emacs for the initial text creation
(because it is better at that) but then used vi (actually viper mode
in Xemacs) for editing changes thereafter. The best of both worlds!

which is a waste of movement compared to modern text editor. 
Compared to

just clicking then typing


But you can do that in vim. It is fully mouse aware and you
can position the cursor, select text and more all with the mouse.

should change to a laptop, in which the distance between the 
touchpad
and keyboard is really close (you could, sort of, say that the 
keyboard

and the touchpad is a singular device).


I do use a laptop but laptop pointers are universally awful in my
experience!


I could even argue that moving the hand from the home position to
touchpad is shorter than moving the hand from home position to Esc 
key,

which you have to do many times in vim.


Thats a valid point, but less so in vim.
The ESC key was originally easily within reach of the little finger
but with the introduction of PCs it has moved further away.


text editor, you could use shift+directional[1] to select text very
quickly, you can't do that in the almighty vim, you must instead 
type


You can use the usual selection movements using Visual mode
in vim. drag select or shift select both work as expected


"y(ank)-an_obscure_direction_that_is_slow_to_work_with


But no vim power user does that.
They use the navigational power of vim to jump directly
to where they want to be. As i said earlier I virtually never
use the number commands, I use the search features or
the t/f set. Thus yt or yf or for long sections

,.//y


[1] directional isn't only up, down, left, and right, but also home,
end, page up, page down, and ctrl+directional, most people never 
fully
utilize the extended directionals and instead uses the mouse (or in 
case

of vim users, keyboards) more than is really necessary (instead of
balancing between keyboard and mouse usage).


And all of those movements exist in vi.vim plus quite
a few others as well - half page movements up down left and right
movement to/from a letter or regex etc etc

Its not visual and if you like visual you probably won't like vi 
(which

is ironic since vi is short for visual! - as opposed to line oriented)


I know I can use the arrow key, but that doesn't seems to be the
preferred choice of vim-ers when they're in editing mode (now with
correct terminology)


Experienced users prefer hjkl purely because its faster than
stretching to the arrow keys... But beginners nearly always
use the arrow keys.

(when I had the time I will surely approach them), I never thought 
SQL

as a programming language,


SQL is fully Turing complete. Some people write full business 
applications
in pure SQL. its just a different way of thinking about control flow 
etc.

Its more akin to prolog than Python.

redundant and is pale compared to modern text-editor that do 
acknowledge

mouse as a primary input device.


vim does use the mouse as a primary device.
I'm confused at the comments re vim but I totally understand them
in the context of vi.

But back to what I said at the beginning, if you don't like vi./vim
there are lots of other choices and just go with the one that works
for you.

Alan g. 



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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Lie Ryan]

On Sat, 2008-08-16 at 11:20 -0500, W W wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Lie Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> I agree it is very powerful, at its time, when computers are
> keyboard-only and terminal-only. But now, most of its power is
> largely
> redundant and is pale compared to modern text-editor that do
> acknowledge
> mouse as a primary input device.
> 
> I've never met anyone who could edit faster with a mouse than I can
> with my basic knowledge of vi.

I think the greatest bottleneck in editing isn't the tool itself, but
how fast the editor can identify what to edit/write next (the slowest
thing attached to a computer is between the keyboard and chair). And if
you're doing an editing contest, I'm sure I can fare _at_least_ as fast
as you.

> Bottom line - you don't like to use vi (or prefer to use your mouse).

Don't take it wrong, I don't hate vi, I like to use it too in certain
circumstances, I only thought it was way too overrated.

> Those of us who use vi have experienced its benefits. (And using
> visual mode to yank helps eliminate counting errors ;) )
> 
> Neither of us will change, and making arguments to the contrary is
> worse than arguing about religion (although one could very well argue
> that choice of editors is practically a religion, and I'm sure there
> are many folks out there who defend their editor more than their
> religion).

> 
> Bottom line v.2, People should use what works best for them.
> 

I won't try to change you if you won't. I agree with you though: "choose
what's works best for you". For me: touchpad+keyboard combination allows
the fastest editing speed a typical vim-ers would have a hard time to
match.

> -Wayne
> 

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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Kent Johnson]

This is getting pretty far off topic. Let's not have an editor
flamewar please. If you like vim, great! Use it! If you don't like
vim, great! Use something else. If everyone liked the same editor
features there wouldn't be so many to choose from.

Thanks,
Kent
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[W W]

On Sat, Aug 16, 2008 at 11:07 AM, Lie Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> I agree it is very powerful, at its time, when computers are
> keyboard-only and terminal-only. But now, most of its power is largely
> redundant and is pale compared to modern text-editor that do acknowledge
> mouse as a primary input device.
>

I've never met anyone who could edit faster with a mouse than I can with my
basic knowledge of vi.

Bottom line - you don't like to use vi (or prefer to use your mouse).

Those of us who use vi have experienced its benefits. (And using visual mode
to yank helps eliminate counting errors ;) )

Neither of us will change, and making arguments to the contrary is worse
than arguing about religion (although one could very well argue that choice
of editors is practically a religion, and I'm sure there are many folks out
there who defend their editor more than their religion).

Bottom line v.2, People should use what works best for them.

-Wayne
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Lie Ryan]

> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 21:31:51 +0100
> From: "Alan Gauld" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?
> To: tutor@python.org
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> reply-type=original
> 
> 
> "Lie Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
> 
> > I've seen vi(m) being praised a lot, well, personally the thing
> that 
> > I
> > hate the most about vim is its directional button (khjl) which is
> > unnatural
> 
> But very logical and easy to remember when you recall
> that ^H was backspace (go left), and ^j was linefeed
> (go down)  and the typists home position has the right hand
> on ,j,k,l, (and if you use your imagination K looks a bit like
> an up arrow and L like a right facing symbol - but personally
> I think that's coincidental!) and shifting one position left is
> an easy reach. (BTW A lot of early terminal games, especially
> on Unix use the hjkl format. And so, of course does the
> bash shell and more (and maybe less?) )

No offense (to you and to other vi(m) fans), but that argument is
forcing itself way too much[1], humans doesn't think in such terms --
not in their subconsciousness -- humans think visually when navigating
(up is located somewhere higher than down)[2].

[1] (to note: it isn't that I don't remember the buttons, but I found
myself subconsciously pressing j when I want to go up and k when I want
to go down nearly all the time)

[2] That's why no TV remote put their buttons in this arrangements:
right
down up left

Though I do admit that plane pilots do have their own queerness on
choosing the direction their plane goes when they move their joystick,
somehow it does feels more natural.

> > touchpad and keyboard 2) the keyboard is smaller, 3) many of the 
> > hotkeys
> > require pressing Esc first to get out from editing/inserting mode, 
> > which
> > is just as inconvenient as reaching the Ctrl. And for vi(m), after 
> > going
> > to command/shortcut mode and pressing the shortcut, then most of the
> > time you have to go back to editing mode by pressing i/a/etc, that 
> > is
> > much worse than the Ctrl craziness.
> 
> Remember that the default mode in vi is "editing mode" with is 
> actually

OK, wrong terminology, I'm not too much fan of vi(m) myself, pardon for
that. 

> where you type commands. The mode you call editing mode is
> actually insert mode and only applies for the duration of a command.
> Thus it is logical, from command mode, to enter a command, enter trext
> and then hit ESC to escape from insert mode back to the native
> editing/command mode. You have to get used to the idea that inserting
> text is not the default activity, navigating and changing text is - 
> which is

To me, as a programmer, navigating, inserting, deleting, and editing are
four basic operation when editing a text, I can't stand inserting and
deleting (or any one of them) being called second to the others. Why do
they think that programmers insert texts less often than changing text?
I'm not sure, probably that's their workflow.

> what most programmers do most of the time. So a command in
> vim consists of:
> 
> [[]]

which is a waste of movement compared to modern text editor. Compared to
just clicking then typing, pressing command then typing then escape is
redundant. For those that used vim because you don't want your hand to
be getting back and forth from the keyboard to mouse when typing, you
should change to a laptop, in which the distance between the touchpad
and keyboard is really close (you could, sort of, say that the keyboard
and the touchpad is a singular device). 

I could even argue that moving the hand from the home position to
touchpad is shorter than moving the hand from home position to Esc key,
which you have to do many times in vim. And as an addition, in a modern
text editor, you could use shift+directional[1] to select text very
quickly, you can't do that in the almighty vim, you must instead type
"y(ank)-an_obscure_direction_that_is_slow_to_work_with_because_you_have_to_carefully_count_first_how_many_characters_or_words_or_lines_you_want_to_yank_,_what_makes_it_worse_is_you_cannot_realize_counting_mistake_until_you_putted_the_text_,_also_if_you_make_a_mistake_you_have_to_do_it_from_beginning_instead_of_continuing_where_you_left_off_before-ESCAPE(From_this_mess)"

[1] directional isn't only up, down, left, and right, but also home,
end, page up, page down, and ctrl+directional, most people never fully
utilize the extended directionals and instead uses the mouse (or in case
of vim users, keyboards) more than is really necess

Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Eike Welk]

On Tuesday 12 August 2008, Jaggo wrote:
> Hello.
>
> I haven't much experience with programming.
>
> I'd like to point this question to programmers who write in editors
> other than the default PyWin32:
>
> Why do you use your editor rather than using Pywin? What feature
> has editor X got that PyWin hasn't?
> (That is, other than "My editor runs on unix / linux"; while that
> does count for something it is rather irrelevant to my current
> situation.)
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Omer.

If you want to try out something basic, try Rope:
http://rope.sourceforge.net/ropeide.html

If has fairly good syntax completion and it is good in renaming 
everything (variables, classes, functions). It has also syntax 
coloring.
However, it is ugly as hell, and the usability is horrible. It has no 
graphical debugger. I just read that it comes with EMACS keybindings, 
so you'll have to edit a configuration file to set it to something 
sane. 

It should run on Windows too, since it is written in pure Python. I 
really used it to write a small program. It is definitely usable.
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Steve Willoughby]

Alan Gauld wrote:


"Lie Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote


I've seen vi(m) being praised a lot, well, personally the thing that I
hate the most about vim is its directional button (khjl) which is
unnatural


But very logical and easy to remember when you recall
that ^H was backspace (go left), and ^j was linefeed
(go down)  and the typists home position has the right hand
on ,j,k,l, (and if you use your imagination K looks a bit like


Not only that, but a lot of early terminals actually had arrow symbols 
printed on the h j k l keycaps, so no imagination necessary :)


So a lot of it is tradition mixed with convenience (even if they're not 
strictly on the home positions, they're very easy and natural to get to 
as opposed to more mnemonic key bindings like ^P or ^N or whatever). 
Arrangements like wasz would probably have worked fine too but just 
didn't happen to.



Remember that the default mode in vi is "editing mode" with is actually
where you type commands. The mode you call editing mode is
actually insert mode and only applies for the duration of a command.
Thus it is logical, from command mode, to enter a command, enter trext
and then hit ESC to escape from insert mode back to the native
editing/command mode. You have to get used to the idea that inserting
text is not the default activity, navigating and changing text is - 
which is

what most programmers do most of the time. So a command in
vim consists of:


I guess this is where having come from TECO before learning vi paid off 
for me, so that was really ingrained by then :)



But the whole point of vi/vim is that you are required to change your
way of thinking about text editing. It is a different approach in the
same way that Lisp or Prolog  or SQL are very different approaches
to programming from Python. There is no escaping the fact that
vi/vim are very powerful but only after you invest heavily in learning
their ethos. Until you do they will drive you nuts! But if you use
them regularly that only last a week or so... :-)


And that's an excellent point with regard to languages too.  Learning a 
new language is always a good thing to do if it changes how you look at 
programming.  Only knowing how to edit text in one fashion with one tool 
makes as much sense as only knowing one way to write a program, in one 
language.


--steve
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Alan Gauld]

"Lie Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote

I've seen vi(m) being praised a lot, well, personally the thing that 
I

hate the most about vim is its directional button (khjl) which is
unnatural


But very logical and easy to remember when you recall
that ^H was backspace (go left), and ^j was linefeed
(go down)  and the typists home position has the right hand
on ,j,k,l, (and if you use your imagination K looks a bit like
an up arrow and L like a right facing symbol - but personally
I think that's coincidental!) and shifting one position left is
an easy reach. (BTW A lot of early terminal games, especially
on Unix use the hjkl format. And so, of course does the
bash shell and more (and maybe less?) )

touchpad and keyboard 2) the keyboard is smaller, 3) many of the 
hotkeys
require pressing Esc first to get out from editing/inserting mode, 
which
is just as inconvenient as reaching the Ctrl. And for vi(m), after 
going

to command/shortcut mode and pressing the shortcut, then most of the
time you have to go back to editing mode by pressing i/a/etc, that 
is

much worse than the Ctrl craziness.


Remember that the default mode in vi is "editing mode" with is 
actually

where you type commands. The mode you call editing mode is
actually insert mode and only applies for the duration of a command.
Thus it is logical, from command mode, to enter a command, enter trext
and then hit ESC to escape from insert mode back to the native
editing/command mode. You have to get used to the idea that inserting
text is not the default activity, navigating and changing text is - 
which is

what most programmers do most of the time. So a command in
vim consists of:

[[]]

The good news about vim (as opposed to vi) is that you don't
need to do that nearly as often since it recognises the arrow
keys and you can do basic deletion etc while in insert mode.

But the whole point of vi/vim is that you are required to change your
way of thinking about text editing. It is a different approach in the
same way that Lisp or Prolog  or SQL are very different approaches
to programming from Python. There is no escaping the fact that
vi/vim are very powerful but only after you invest heavily in learning
their ethos. Until you do they will drive you nuts! But if you use
them regularly that only last a week or so... :-)

HTH,

Alan G 



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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Jeff Johnson]

You can use just the Editor if you wish.  Editor.py is the program.

Dick Moores wrote:

Thanks for the info. I'll take a look at Dabo.

Dick


--
Jeff

Jeff Johnson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phoenix Python User Group - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Jeff Johnson]

It has a Run command on the menu and copies your .py to a temp file and
executes it.  Output is displayed in the lower split window.  It works
very nice without ever having to leave the editor.

I will tell you that I am not a person that likes a lot of features.  It
does indenting and code coloring and I can make changes, save and run it
all in the editor.

YMMV

--
Jeff

Jeff Johnson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phoenix Python User Group - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Dick Moores wrote:

At 06:36 AM 8/14/2008, Jeff Johnson wrote:
I use Dabo's Editor.py.  It has templates to provide code 
highlighting, etc. in many languages.  I also like the way it runs 
Python programs.


Could you tell us what you like about the way it runs Python programs?

Thanks,

Dick Moores




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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Lie Ryan]

On Wed, 2008-08-13 at 16:59 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:04:40 -0500
> From: "W W" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?
> To: "Dick Moores" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: Python Tutor List 
> Message-ID:
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> As far as vi/vim being better than other editors, well that depends on
> your
> personal preference and experience, but if you're a touch typist,
> prefer to
> use the keyboard, and hate wasting  motions and extra keystrokes...
> vi/vim
> is probably for you.

I've seen vi(m) being praised a lot, well, personally the thing that I
hate the most about vim is its directional button (khjl) which is
unnatural (a better choice would be gamer's wasd or ijkl[1], even jhkl
would be better (like the default except with the up and down
inverted)). I found most of the hotkeys provided in vi(m) useless, why?
Because I'm using a laptop and is very adept at using touchpad, 1) there
is only a very short distance for going back and forth between the
touchpad and keyboard 2) the keyboard is smaller, 3) many of the hotkeys
require pressing Esc first to get out from editing/inserting mode, which
is just as inconvenient as reaching the Ctrl. And for vi(m), after going
to command/shortcut mode and pressing the shortcut, then most of the
time you have to go back to editing mode by pressing i/a/etc, that is
much worse than the Ctrl craziness.

So, a simple recommendation from me: If you're a programmer (or a fast
typer) and you hate vim but hate using the mouse even further, try
buying a laptop and get a degree in touchpad mastery

[1] if you argued that w or i is not in the home position, neither is h.

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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Dick Moores]

At 06:36 AM 8/14/2008, Jeff Johnson wrote:
I use Dabo's Editor.py.  It has templates to provide code 
highlighting, etc. in many languages.  I also like the way it runs 
Python programs.


Could you tell us what you like about the way it runs Python programs?

Thanks,

Dick Moores


By the way, Dabo is a database/business object centric framework for 
Python which wraps WxPython.  But you can use just the Editor or 
other parts you like.  It is not intended to be a web framework.


http://dabodev.com/wiki/FrontPage


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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Dick Moores]

At 04:54 PM 8/14/2008, bob gailer wrote:

Dick Moores wrote:

At 08:58 PM 8/13/2008, bob gailer wrote:
One thing I really like about Python Win is the integrated 
debugger, which takes no time to start up. SPE OTOH uses WinPDB 
which runs as a separate process that takes (in the demo video) 15 
seconds to start (each time it is requested)! Since I depend 
heavily on the debugger that delay would drive me crazy!


Hm, I just measured how long Ulipad takes to get going with WinPDB, 
a plug-in: 20 seconds, but 10 seconds for a restart.


Since you mention Ulipad I may have tried WinPDB there instead of 
SPE. I just remember trying it and not liking it. Python Win is 
totally integrated and seamless.


Other than the time to start, could you compare debugging with 
Python Win and debugging with WinPDB?


I'll taks a stab. All I know about WinPDB is what I see in the SPE 
video, so it probably is not the truth. What I see is a screen 
cluttered with a lot of windows, and having to switch application to 
access the output window or the code editor to make changes. Wth 
PyWin I work in the same familiar environment. The interactive 
window is available for viewing output and entering Python 
statements and expressions. If I want to see the stack or watch 
variables I can open floating or dockable windows.


Python Win serves my workflow. I am editing a script. I decide to 
run it so I can see what steps it takes and what values my variables 
are getting.


All I have to is press F10 in the active window and execution starts 
with the first statement. I can set breakpoints with F9, control 
execution with F11 F10 shift-F11 F5 and shift-F5. I can edit my 
source on the fly (changes of course do not take effect until the 
next execution cycle, and I must take care to not delete or add 
lines (the debugger does not know about such changes).


I can set a condition for a breakpoint.

OTOH WinPDB displays more information (witness locals globals 
exceptions and threads). I don't know how PythonWin handles threads.


Thanks very much for taking the time to write about something I've 
long wondered about.


As a Python learner, I found that getting acquainted with WinPDB made 
such a big difference in my ability to program, that I'm reluctant to 
change. I learned to use it through 



BTW you can set a condition for a breakpoint with it: See this 
example towards the bottom of the tutorial:


==
we need to set our conditional breakpoint. Look for the line number 
of the while loop statement:



while divisor <= 0:and set a conditional breakpoint for when divisor 
reaches the value 1.



bp 35, divisor == 1


Dick


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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[bob gailer]

Dick Moores wrote:

At 08:58 PM 8/13/2008, bob gailer wrote:
One thing I really like about Python Win is the integrated debugger, 
which takes no time to start up. SPE OTOH uses WinPDB which runs as a 
separate process that takes (in the demo video) 15 seconds to start 
(each time it is requested)! Since I depend heavily on the debugger 
that delay would drive me crazy!


Hm, I just measured how long Ulipad takes to get going with WinPDB, a 
plug-in: 20 seconds, but 10 seconds for a restart.


Since you mention Ulipad I may have tried WinPDB there instead of SPE. I 
just remember trying it and not liking it. Python Win is totally 
integrated and seamless.


Other than the time to start, could you compare debugging with Python 
Win and debugging with WinPDB?


I'll taks a stab. All I know about WinPDB is what I see in the SPE 
video, so it probably is not the truth. What I see is a screen cluttered 
with a lot of windows, and having to switch application to access the 
output window or the code editor to make changes. Wth PyWin I work in 
the same familiar environment. The interactive window is available for 
viewing output and entering Python statements and expressions. If I want 
to see the stack or watch variables I can open floating or dockable windows.


Python Win serves my workflow. I am editing a script. I decide to run it 
so I can see what steps it takes and what values my variables are getting.


All I have to is press F10 in the active window and execution starts 
with the first statement. I can set breakpoints with F9, control 
execution with F11 F10 shift-F11 F5 and shift-F5. I can edit my source 
on the fly (changes of course do not take effect until the next 
execution cycle, and I must take care to not delete or add lines (the 
debugger does not know about such changes).


I can set a condition for a breakpoint.

OTOH WinPDB displays more information (witness locals globals exceptions 
and threads). I don't know how PythonWin handles threads.


YMMV.

HTH.

--
Bob Gailer
Chapel Hill NC 
919-636-4239


When we take the time to be aware of our feelings and 
needs we have more satisfying interatctions with others.


Nonviolent Communication provides tools for this awareness.

As a coach and trainer I can assist you in learning this process.

What is YOUR biggest relationship challenge?

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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Jeff Johnson]

I use Dabo's Editor.py.  It has templates to provide code highlighting, 
etc. in many languages.  I also like the way it runs Python programs.


By the way, Dabo is a database/business object centric framework for 
Python which wraps WxPython.  But you can use just the Editor or other 
parts you like.  It is not intended to be a web framework.


http://dabodev.com/wiki/FrontPage


--
Jeff

Jeff Johnson
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phoenix Python User Group - [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Jaggo wrote:

Hello.

I haven't much experience with programming.

I'd like to point this question to programmers who write in editors 
other than the default PyWin32:


Why do you use your editor rather than using Pywin? What feature has 
editor X got that PyWin hasn't?
(That is, other than "My editor runs on unix / linux"; while that does 
count for something it is rather irrelevant to my current situation.)


Thanks in advance,
Omer.



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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[OmerT]

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 7:20 AM, Dick Moores <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 08:58 PM 8/13/2008, bob gailer wrote:
>>
>> One thing I really like about Python Win is the integrated debugger, which
>> takes no time to start up. SPE OTOH uses WinPDB which runs as a separate
>> process that takes (in the demo video) 15 seconds to start (each time it is
>> requested)! Since I depend heavily on the debugger that delay would drive me
>> crazy!
>
> Hm, I just measured how long Ulipad takes to get going with WinPDB, a
> plug-in: 20 seconds, but 10 seconds for a restart.
>
> Other than the time to start, could you compare debugging with Python Win
> and debugging with WinPDB?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dick Moores
>


Isn't that a bit system-dependent? PyWin starts for me in <5 seconds
on my spankin' new 2 gb ram, E8400 at 3 ghz.
SPE (the .pyw file) took ~7 seconds to start.
(Haven't WinPDB to test..)

Omer.
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Dick Moores]

At 08:58 PM 8/13/2008, bob gailer wrote:
One thing I really like about Python Win is the integrated debugger, 
which takes no time to start up. SPE OTOH uses WinPDB which runs as 
a separate process that takes (in the demo video) 15 seconds to 
start (each time it is requested)! Since I depend heavily on the 
debugger that delay would drive me crazy!


Hm, I just measured how long Ulipad takes to get going with WinPDB, a 
plug-in: 20 seconds, but 10 seconds for a restart.


Other than the time to start, could you compare debugging with Python 
Win and debugging with WinPDB?


Thanks,

Dick Moores



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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[bob gailer]

Marc Tompkins wrote:

Good Things about SPE:
-  Tabbed editing
-  "Output" pane, plus separate terminal pane for quickies
-  Click on any line in an error traceback to jump to the offending 
line. Any file that isn't already, opens automatically when you click 
it. 
-  Left pane toggles between:
   -  Code outline; specially formatted comment lines appear as 
section headers in outline

   -  Todo list
   -  Index
   -  Notes
   -  TabNanny compiling checker (finds errors that work OK now, but 
might bite you later)

   -  File browser
-  Collapse/expand blocks of code for compact viewing
-  Syntax highlighting (of course!)
-  Code completion, inline help with function/method parameters
-  Excellent integration with WinPdb debugger
-  Excellent integration with PyDoc documentation 
generation/formatting/printing

-  TabNanny

Not-so-Good Things:
-  Integrated subversion would be a nice plus.  (Actually, I use 
Bazaar anyway.)
-  Programs you start from inside the IDE run as children of SPE, so 
inherit SPE's environment.  Not really a Bad Thing, just something to 
be aware of - if you make changes to the environment, and want your 
program to see them, run it from outside SPE or else restart SPE 
(which takes a fraction of the time it takes to restart Eclipse, by 
the way.)
One thing I really like about Python Win is the integrated debugger, 
which takes no time to start up. SPE OTOH uses WinPDB which runs as a 
separate process that takes (in the demo video) 15 seconds to start 
(each time it is requested)! Since I depend heavily on the debugger that 
delay would drive me crazy!
 

--
Bob Gailer
Chapel Hill NC 
919-636-4239


When we take the time to be aware of our feelings and 
needs we have more satisfying interatctions with others.


Nonviolent Communication provides tools for this awareness.

As a coach and trainer I can assist you in learning this process.

What is YOUR biggest relationship challenge?

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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[bob gailer]

Marc Tompkins wrote:

  On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 1:10 AM, vishwajeet singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
  
  
I use pydev eclipse plugin for python and it saves
me alot time.
Packages and modules can be maintained pretty well and if error is in
some dependent file I dont have to go to that folder to open it eclipse
does it for me.
Integration with subversion and JIRA also help me to work in a better
way.

  
  
I tried pydev for about a week - I'd started using SPE (Stani's Python
Editor, http://pythonide.stani.be/)
  
  
  


What gives with that link? I get a page titled

SPE IDE - Stani's Python Editor
Free python IDE for Windows,Mac & Linux with
UML,PyChecker,Debugger,GUI design,Blender & more

but I can't find any links to get more information or download SPE!

There is a request for donation link!

http://sourceforge.net/projects/spe/?abmode=1 looks more promising!

-- 
Bob Gailer
Chapel Hill NC 
919-636-4239

When we take the time to be aware of our feelings and 
needs we have more satisfying interatctions with others.

Nonviolent Communication provides tools for this awareness.

As a coach and trainer I can assist you in learning this process.

What is YOUR biggest relationship challenge?



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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Tim Johnson]

On Tuesday 12 August 2008, Jaggo wrote:
> Hello.
>
> I haven't much experience with programming.
>
> I'd like to point this question to programmers who write in editors other
> than the default PyWin32:
>
> Why do you use your editor rather than using Pywin? What feature has editor
> X got that PyWin hasn't?
  I use emacs. Oh, I work on the linux OS - no Pywin here! :-)
  Because I am also a lisp programmer, I can write code in elisp to leverage
  emacs to be more productive. One thing I haven't looked into but am meaning
  to is a system call pymacs, (quoting the synopsis)
"""
Pymacs is a powerful tool which, once started from Emacs, allows both-way 
communication between Emacs Lisp and Python. Pymacs aims Python as an 
extension language for Emacs rather than the other way around, and this 
asymmetry is reflected in some design choices. Within Emacs Lisp code, one 
may load and use Python modules. Python functions may themselves use Emacs 
services, and handle Emacs Lisp objects kept in Emacs Lisp space.
"""
MTCW
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Alan Gauld]

"Dick Moores" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote


(both were included). Can you help me out? gvim is GUI-vim,
I think. Isn't that what I want to learn? Is gvim a cut-down
version of vim, but enables you to use your mouse ( :set mouse=a)?


No gvim is a superset of vim. It has more colours, mouse commands,
toolbars etc. Plus you can resize windows, scroll, change split window
ratios etc

But the keyboard command set is identical since the
underlying core code is the same.


Alan G 



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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[W W]

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 10:09 AM, Dick Moores <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At 07:58 AM 8/13/2008, W W wrote:
>
>> As far as any keyboard commands that I use, I've not seen any difference
>> between vim, vi, and gvim. The main difference is syntax highlighting.
>>
>
> Uh, oh. What's the difference between syntax highlighting in vim and in
> gvim?
>
>
Ah, pardon me. That should be vi, and vim/gvim.

IIRC, vi doesn't do syntax highlighting.
-Wayne
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[ALAN GAULD]

>  If I want to delete 10 lines of code, 10dd does it. 
> If I want to change a word, cw. If I want to change 
> several words, the number of words followed by cw.

Yes thats what I mean about consistency.

10dd - delete 10 lines
10cc - change10 lines
10yy - yank(copy) 10 lines

etc...

I rarely use the numbersthough becase the magic feature for me is the range 
commands.

/fromstr/,/tostring/

applies cmd to the range of lines containing fromstr to the next 
line containing tostring

And cmd can be almost any editing command.

similarly you can apply commands to only those lines 
containing a given string.

Also rectangular mode is great for messing with 
comments (almost essential in assembler code!)

etc etc etc

However I'll stop here because its got little 
to do with python and the vim advocacy pages have 
more than enough of this kind of promo material :-)
Although of course you can get aversion of vim that 
uses python as its macro language! (But actually I 
don't use it)

Alan G.
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[ALAN GAULD]

> Everybody who uses vim raves about its greatness, but it 
> took me less time to write my first useful Python program 
> than it did to figure out how to open, change, and save a 
> file in vim.  OK, I exaggerate a BIT...)

But not much.  - The point about vi/vim is that it is 
written for power users. It makes no compromises 
for newbies. As such it has one of the steepest 
learning curves of any editir. But once you grasp 
the concepts it is one of(if not the) fasyest text 
editors around. Everything is designed to minimise 
typing for expert users- on the basis that you 
will spend far more time using it as an expert 
than you will becoming an expert.

My first experience of vi was on the OS/9 real-time OS at uni.
I had no alternative editor so I had to learn it (it was called 
scred = scvreen editor - on OS/9!) but I hated it after Turbo 
Pascal!

then at work we moved fopm Vax to unix and I came across 
vi again. but this time surrounded by ex unix hackers who 
showed me its mysteries. More importantly they introduced 
me to tutvi (aka vitutor) which was where I had the flash of 
light that showed the logic in the keystrokes and in the modal 
way of working. I used vi/emacs equally on *nix systems 
ever since (and even ex sometimes - ex is the line mode 
of vi! - think edlin on DOS...

When I moved to PC I found that emacs didn't seem to
work so well on Windows so I stopped using it, but vim 
(gvim) was as good as ever!

On the subject of eclipse, i tried it, and am now having 
to use it at work, and it was nice but slowww. 
Now I have a much faster PC I might try pydev again.
Anyone know how to get a >>> prompt in eclipse?

BTW One final option that i really like as a vim 
alternative for newbies is Scite.
Its a more powerful version of the Pythonwin editor 
so everything you know from pythonwin works but 
it also does a zillion other languages plus has 
tabbed editing.
Plus its very small and works from a flash drive so 
is easy to carry around.


HTH,

Alan G
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Dick Moores]

At 07:58 AM 8/13/2008, W W wrote:
As far as any keyboard commands that I use, I've not seen any 
difference between vim, vi, and gvim. The main difference is syntax 
highlighting.


Uh, oh. What's the difference between syntax highlighting in vim and in gvim?

Thanks,

Dick



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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[W W]

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 9:42 AM, Dick Moores <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> Since downloading vim 7.2 yesterday, I've had some trouble distinguishing
> vim and gvim (both were included). Can you help me out? gvim is GUI-vim, I
> think. Isn't that what I want to learn? Is gvim a cut-down version of vim,
> but enables you to use your mouse ( :set mouse=a)?
>

As far as I know/have used, gvim is simply vim, but for lack of a better
comparison, in its own terminal. The same thing you would have if you were
to type "vim" at the command line.

Honestly, the only thing I know how to do with the mouse in gvim is paste
(middle click in linux). Or access the menus. That's one of the main reasons
I /use/ vim - so I don't have to touch the mouse :)

As far as any keyboard commands that I use, I've not seen any difference
between vim, vi, and gvim. The main difference is syntax highlighting.

-Wayne



-- 
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gluttonous, mendacious, violent, lascivious, lazy, cowardly: every weakness,
every vice, has found its defenders, its rhetoric, its ennoblement and
exaltation, but stupidity hasn't. - Primo Levi
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Dick Moores]

At 07:04 AM 8/13/2008, W W wrote:
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 7:31 AM,
Dick Moores <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:




And read this:

http://www.moolenaar.net/habits.html

Hey, that looks very useful! Thanks.

How about the O'Reilly book? <

http://www.bestbookdeal.com/book/detail/059652983X/>


 I've never read it, but looking at the summary it appears to give
you the power and knowledge to become a vi/vim god... My current
knowledge of vi/vim is probably maybe about 1% of what I could possibly
know and utilize. For instance, I currently rely on other people to write
my syntax files (the ones that govern highlighting, indention, et al).
The list of commands I use could probably fit on a 3x5 notecard if you
wrote small enough. But really it's enough for the casual and educational
(read: my c++ class at the University of Central Arkansas) coding that I
do. And I find it quicker (as in I'm able to edit and create more lines
of code), more powerful (its features are more versatile and
customizable), and more comfortable (I'm not constantly moving my hands
around. They more or less stay stationary. I don't move back & forth
to the mouse, I'm not constanly pushing ctrl, pg up/dn, home/end/del)
than any other editor I've used. I've used note/wordpad, the microsoft
visual studio editors, and IDLE and the ActiveState python editor.

Once you're done with the vimtutor, and if(when ;) ) you find you enjoy
vim, 
Since downloading vim 7.2 yesterday, I've had some trouble distinguishing
vim and gvim (both were included). Can you help me out? gvim is GUI-vim,
I think. Isn't that what I want to learn? Is gvim a cut-down version of
vim, but enables you to use your mouse ( :set mouse=a)?
if you feel that you want to be
able to do insane things, or you just wish you had a feature that was
available in some other IDE, I'd bet that book is a good source. If
you're just the average joe coder, my guess is that you'll be able to
find all the information you want/need out on the web in various
places.



Still, for all of the reasons that other people mention, and my
biggest reason is that I can select and move around massive amounts of
code without moving my hands much. If I want to delete 10 lines of code,
10dd does it. If I want to change a word, cw. If I want to change several
words, the number of words followed by cw.

and I find the autocomplete WAY useful.
and then you will most likely never go back - at least I
haven't/don't. I feel crippled when I program in  anything without
the power of vi/vim, even though I can probably almost match my speed
with some of the ctrl+ and shift+ hotkeys in most editors.

Is it better than in other editors? 


The autocomplete, or vi/vim? 
Autocomplete.
Autocomplete is probably as good
as most other editors. As you're typing, if you want autocomplete you
push ctrl+n and it pops down a list of available matches. You push ctrl+n
to cycle through the matches, and then either hit enter or continue
typing.
As far as vi/vim being better than other editors, well that depends on
your personal preference and experience, but if you're a touch typist,
prefer to use the keyboard, and hate wasting  motions and extra
keystrokes... vi/vim is probably for you.
Well, I'm very probably going to stick with Ulipad, but I want to get
reacquainted with vim.
Thanks,
Dick
===
Have you seen Kelie Feng's video introducing the terrific and free
IDE, Ulipad?
<
http://www.rcblue.com/u3/> 
Get Ulipad 3.9 from
<
http://code.google.com/p/ulipad/downloads/list>
svn for the latest revision
<
http://ulipad.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/>
Mailing list for Ulipad:
<
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/ulipad>



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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Dick Moores]

At 07:04 AM 8/13/2008, W W wrote:
On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 7:31 AM,
Dick Moores <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:




And read this:

http://www.moolenaar.net/habits.html

Hey, that looks very useful! Thanks.

How about the O'Reilly book? <

http://www.bestbookdeal.com/book/detail/059652983X/>


 I've never read it, but looking at the summary it appears to give
you the power and knowledge to become a vi/vim god... My current
knowledge of vi/vim is probably maybe about 1% of what I could possibly
know and utilize. For instance, I currently rely on other people to write
my syntax files (the ones that govern highlighting, indention, et al).
The list of commands I use could probably fit on a 3x5 notecard if you
wrote small enough. But really it's enough for the casual and educational
(read: my c++ class at the University of Central Arkansas) coding that I
do. And I find it quicker (as in I'm able to edit and create more lines
of code), more powerful (its features are more versatile and
customizable), and more comfortable (I'm not constantly moving my hands
around. They more or less stay stationary. I don't move back & forth
to the mouse, I'm not constanly pushing ctrl, pg up/dn, home/end/del)
than any other editor I've used. I've used note/wordpad, the microsoft
visual studio editors, and IDLE and the ActiveState python editor.

Once you're done with the vimtutor, and if(when ;) ) you find you enjoy
vim, 
Since downloading vim 7.2 yesterday, I've had some trouble distinguishing
vim and gvim (both were included). Can you help me out? gvim is GUI-vim,
I think. Isn't that what I want to learn? Is gvim a cut-down version of
vim, but enables you to use your mouse ( :set mouse=a)?
if you feel that you want to be
able to do insane things, or you just wish you had a feature that was
available in some other IDE, I'd bet that book is a good source. If
you're just the average joe coder, my guess is that you'll be able to
find all the information you want/need out on the web in various
places.



Still, for all of the reasons that other people mention, and my
biggest reason is that I can select and move around massive amounts of
code without moving my hands much. If I want to delete 10 lines of code,
10dd does it. If I want to change a word, cw. If I want to change several
words, the number of words followed by cw.

and I find the autocomplete WAY useful.
and then you will most likely never go back - at least I
haven't/don't. I feel crippled when I program in  anything without
the power of vi/vim, even though I can probably almost match my speed
with some of the ctrl+ and shift+ hotkeys in most editors.

Is it better than in other editors? 


The autocomplete, or vi/vim? 
Autocomplete.
Autocomplete is probably as good
as most other editors. As you're typing, if you want autocomplete you
push ctrl+n and it pops down a list of available matches. You push ctrl+n
to cycle through the matches, and then either hit enter or continue
typing.
As far as vi/vim being better than other editors, well that depends on
your personal preference and experience, but if you're a touch typist,
prefer to use the keyboard, and hate wasting  motions and extra
keystrokes... vi/vim is probably for you.
Well, I'm very probably going to stick with Ulipad, but I want to get
reacquainted with vim.
Thanks,
Dick
===
Have you seen Kelie Feng's video introducing the terrific and free
IDE, Ulipad?
<
http://www.rcblue.com/u3/> 
Get Ulipad 3.9 from
<
http://code.google.com/p/ulipad/downloads/list>
svn for the latest revision
<
http://ulipad.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/>
Mailing list for Ulipad:
<
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/ulipad>



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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[W W]

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 7:31 AM, Dick Moores <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
>
> And read this: http://www.moolenaar.net/habits.html
>
>
> Hey, that looks very useful! Thanks.
>
> How about the O'Reilly book? 
>  >
>

 I've never read it, but looking at the summary it appears to give you the
power and knowledge to become a vi/vim god... My current knowledge of vi/vim
is probably maybe about 1% of what I could possibly know and utilize. For
instance, I currently rely on other people to write my syntax files (the
ones that govern highlighting, indention, et al). The list of commands I use
could probably fit on a 3x5 notecard if you wrote small enough. But really
it's enough for the casual and educational (read: my c++ class at the
University of Central Arkansas) coding that I do. And I find it quicker (as
in I'm able to edit and create more lines of code), more powerful (its
features are more versatile and customizable), and more comfortable (I'm not
constantly moving my hands around. They more or less stay stationary. I
don't move back & forth to the mouse, I'm not constanly pushing ctrl, pg
up/dn, home/end/del) than any other editor I've used. I've used
note/wordpad, the microsoft visual studio editors, and IDLE and the
ActiveState python editor.

Once you're done with the vimtutor, and if(when ;) ) you find you enjoy vim,
if you feel that you want to be able to do insane things, or you just wish
you had a feature that was available in some other IDE, I'd bet that book is
a good source. If you're just the average joe coder, my guess is that you'll
be able to find all the information you want/need out on the web in various
places.

>
> Still, for all of the reasons that other people mention, and my biggest
> reason is that I can select and move around massive amounts of code without
> moving my hands much. If I want to delete 10 lines of code, 10dd does it. If
> I want to change a word, cw. If I want to change several words, the number
> of words followed by cw.
>
> and I find the autocomplete WAY useful.
>
> and then you will most likely never go back - at least I haven't/don't. I
> feel crippled when I program in  anything without the power of vi/vim, even
> though I can probably almost match my speed with some of the ctrl+ and
> shift+ hotkeys in most editors.
>
> Is it better than in other editors?
>

The autocomplete, or vi/vim? Autocomplete is probably as good as most other
editors. As you're typing, if you want autocomplete you push ctrl+n and it
pops down a list of available matches. You push ctrl+n to cycle through the
matches, and then either hit enter or continue typing.

As far as vi/vim being better than other editors, well that depends on your
personal preference and experience, but if you're a touch typist, prefer to
use the keyboard, and hate wasting  motions and extra keystrokes... vi/vim
is probably for you.

HTH,
Wayne



-- 
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every vice, has found its defenders, its rhetoric, its ennoblement and
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[OmerT]

To sum things up,

Thank you,

Hansen, Mike
Steve Willoughby
Chad Crabtree
johnf
Alan Gauld
Dick Moores
vishwajeet singh
Marc Tompkins

I reckon I'll give SPE a chance at the moment, and add vim to my ever
growing list of things to try out once and when I get bored.
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Marc Tompkins]

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 4:15 AM, Dick Moores <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I've marked your list with *** for yes; ### for no; ??? for not sure or not
> sure what you mean.
>
 At 03:06 AM 8/13/2008, Marc Tompkins wrote:
>
>-  Todo list ??? But TODO's in code are flagged
>
> I'd never used it before, but I just tried it: I inserted "# Todo: stuff"
on line 24 of my program and it appeared in the Todo list.  So the same, I
guess.

>-  Index ??? If you mean a browser of functions, classes, and variables,
> then yes.
>
> Yup.

>-  TabNanny compiling checker (finds errors that work OK now, but might
> bite you later)  ???
>
> I don't remember now where I saw the name "TabNanny" - I just ran the
checker, and it didn't say that (maybe it was in the first version of SPE I
used.)  Looking at menu, I see that it's PyChecker.  I've never compared
head-to-head with pylint, but it finds the same stuff that lint would

> but indentation problems are taken care of.
>
>  Now, that gets a "" from me.  SPE lets you set whether the tab key
should insert tabs or spaces, and if (as is recommended) you chose spaces,
then how many.  Also whether to automatically convert tabs to spaces in
files that you open.   If that's what you mean... well, I wouldn't write
Python in an editor that didn't do that.  (OK, I do use Notepad, or joe, or
what have you, in a pinch.  But not for any longer than I have to.)
If you mean, does it read my mind and realize that when I wrote

if something:
this
that
the other

I really meant

if something:
this
that
the other

then no, it's not that smart.  Damn.


>
> I didn't know SPE had come so far. However, Ulipad has most of what you
> list, and more.
>

> Some more features are:
> Code snippets window
>
That's what I use the Notes area for.

> FTP window
>
Now, I can see how that would be useful, but I love me some FileZilla.  I'm
not sure I'd use an FTP window in my editor unless it was as good...

>
> can group files in "sessions"
>
They're called "Workspaces" in SPE

>
> "live" regex
>
SPE has Kiki, which I've never tried - I usually muck around in the Terminal
area and cut-and-paste when my regex is working.

>
> search and replace
>
Well, yeah... I thought that one was kind of obvious; even IDLE has that.

>
> search in files
>
Yup.

>
> syntax checker
>
SPE shows a warning when you open any of (, {, [, ''', or """, and it sticks
around till everything matches.  Improperly continued lines, bad indentation
(AHA! That's what you meant - the kind of indentation error that would blow
up.  Yeah, that's covered.)

>
> spell check
>
How does that work?  I generally use camelCased names that would fail a
spellcheck anyway, and if I misspell any Python keywords then I get a nice
easy error message.

>
> pylint
>
As before - PyChecker.  No idea of the relative merits.

>
> svn support
>
Ah well.

>
> a great many keybindings, mostly for the editor
>
Not a clue - not something I've been curious about...

>
> And last but not least, a developer who is quick to respond to email, or to
> posts on the Ulipad mailing list.
>
I've never tried - I liked it, an update came out, I liked it even better -
but a quick look at the lists seems promising, and for what it's worth he's
frequently in the wxpython groups.   To me, the best customer service is the
kind you never need to use (not saying bad things don't happen, just that
they haven't to me.  Yet.  Knock on wood.)

I don't mean to be such an evangelist for it, but it seemed I'd left a few
things out.
-- 
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Dick Moores]

At 04:22 AM 8/13/2008, W W wrote:
On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 11:17
PM, Dick Moores
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


At 05:11 PM 8/12/2008, Alan Gauld wrote:

I use Pythonwin for most of my short programming tasks

(with occasional forays into other tools like PyCrust and SPE) but
for serious programming I use vim. Why?

Alan,

I used vi/vim a lot years ago in the shell account days. You've got
me wanting to take a look at vim for Windows. I just downloaded the
"Self-installing executable   gvim##.exe" which
is listed on <

http://www.vim.org/download.php#pc>. Is this the sort of vim
you're talking about? 


Make sure you run vimtutor ;)
OK!
And read this:

http://www.moolenaar.net/habits.html
Hey, that looks very useful! Thanks.
How about the O'Reilly book?
<
http://www.bestbookdeal.com/book/detail/059652983X/>
and then you will most likely
never go back - at least I haven't/don't. I feel crippled when I program
in  anything without the power of vi/vim, even though I can probably
almost match my speed with some of the ctrl+ and shift+ hotkeys in most
editors.
Still, for all of the reasons that other people mention, and my biggest
reason is that I can select and move around massive amounts of code
without moving my hands much. If I want to delete 10 lines of code, 10dd
does it. If I want to change a word, cw. If I want to change several
words, the number of words followed by cw.
and I find the autocomplete WAY useful.
Is it better than in other editors? 
Dick Moores



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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[W W]

On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 11:17 PM, Dick Moores <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  At 05:11 PM 8/12/2008, Alan Gauld wrote:
>
> I use Pythonwin for most of my short programming tasks
> (with occasional forays into other tools like PyCrust and SPE) but for
> serious programming I use vim. Why?
>
>
> Alan,
>
> I used vi/vim a lot years ago in the shell account days. You've got me
> wanting to take a look at vim for Windows. I just downloaded the 
> "*Self-installing
> executable*   gvim##.exe" which is listed on 
> .
> Is this the sort of vim you're talking about?
>

Make sure you run vimtutor ;)

And read this: http://www.moolenaar.net/habits.html

and then you will most likely never go back - at least I haven't/don't. I
feel crippled when I program in  anything without the power of vi/vim, even
though I can probably almost match my speed with some of the ctrl+ and
shift+ hotkeys in most editors.

Still, for all of the reasons that other people mention, and my biggest
reason is that I can select and move around massive amounts of code without
moving my hands much. If I want to delete 10 lines of code, 10dd does it. If
I want to change a word, cw. If I want to change several words, the number
of words followed by cw.

and I find the autocomplete WAY useful.

HTH,
Wayne
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Dick Moores]

At 03:06 AM 8/13/2008, Marc Tompkins wrote:
I tried pydev for about a week -
I'd started using SPE (Stani's Python Editor,
http://pythonide.stani.be/)
after about five days of Python, and was feeling a bit guilty that I was
still using "training wheels"...  Damn, that week
sucked.  More than ever, I pity full-time Java coders and the
monstrosities they have to put up with.  I tried Wing for a few
days; meh.  I ran back to SPE as fast as I could, and have only
flirted with vim since.  (Vi and vim have been New Year's
resolutions of mine for about twenty years now.  Everybody who uses
vim raves about its greatness, but it took me less time to write my first
useful Python program than it did to figure out how to open, change, and
save a file in vim.  OK, I exaggerate a BIT...)
Good Things about SPE: 
-  Tabbed editing ***
-  "Output" pane, plus separate terminal pane for quickies
***
-  Click on any line in an error traceback to jump to the offending
line. Any file that isn't already, opens automatically when you click
it.  ***
-  Left pane toggles between: 
   -  Code outline; specially formatted comment lines
appear as section headers in outline ###
   -  Todo list ??? But TODO's in code are flagged
   -  Index ??? If you mean a browser of functions,
classes, and variables, then yes.
   -  Notes ***
   -  TabNanny compiling checker (finds errors that work
OK now, but might bite you later)  ??? but indentation problems are
taken care of.
   -  File browser ***
-  Collapse/expand blocks of code for compact viewing ***
-  Syntax highlighting (of course!) ***
-  Code completion, inline help with function/method parameters
***
-  Excellent integration with WinPdb debugger ***
-  Excellent integration with PyDoc documentation
generation/formatting/printing ??? I think so, but don't use it.
-  TabNanny ???
I didn't know SPE had come so far. However, Ulipad has most of what you
list, and more. I've marked your list with *** for yes; ### for no; ???
for not sure or not sure what you mean. 
Some more features are:
Code snippets window
FTP window
can group files in "sessions"
"live" regex
search and replace
search in files
syntax checker
spell check
pylint 
svn support
a great many keybindings, mostly for the editor
And last but not least, a developer who is quick to respond to email, or
to posts on the Ulipad mailing list.
See my sig for a video demo.
Dick Moores
===
Have you seen Kelie Feng's video introducing the terrific and free
IDE, Ulipad?
<
http://www.rcblue.com/u3/> 
Get Ulipad 3.9 from
<
http://code.google.com/p/ulipad/downloads/list>
svn for the latest revision
<
http://ulipad.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/>
Mailing list for Ulipad:
<
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/ulipad>



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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Marc Tompkins]

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 1:10 AM, vishwajeet singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I use pydev eclipse plugin for python and it saves me alot time.
> Packages and modules can be maintained pretty well and if error is in some
> dependent file I dont have to go to that folder to open it eclipse does it
> for me.
> Integration with subversion and JIRA also help me to work in a better way.
>

I tried pydev for about a week - I'd started using SPE (Stani's Python
Editor, http://pythonide.stani.be/) after about five days of Python, and was
feeling a bit guilty that I was still using "training wheels"...  Damn, that
week sucked.  More than ever, I pity full-time Java coders and the
monstrosities they have to put up with.  I tried Wing for a few days; meh.
I ran back to SPE as fast as I could, and have only flirted with vim since.
(Vi and vim have been New Year's resolutions of mine for about twenty years
now.  Everybody who uses vim raves about its greatness, but it took me less
time to write my first useful Python program than it did to figure out how
to open, change, and save a file in vim.  OK, I exaggerate a BIT...)

Good Things about SPE:
-  Tabbed editing
-  "Output" pane, plus separate terminal pane for quickies
-  Click on any line in an error traceback to jump to the offending line.
Any file that isn't already, opens automatically when you click it.
-  Left pane toggles between:
   -  Code outline; specially formatted comment lines appear as section
headers in outline
   -  Todo list
   -  Index
   -  Notes
   -  TabNanny compiling checker (finds errors that work OK now, but might
bite you later)
   -  File browser
-  Collapse/expand blocks of code for compact viewing
-  Syntax highlighting (of course!)
-  Code completion, inline help with function/method parameters
-  Excellent integration with WinPdb debugger
-  Excellent integration with PyDoc documentation
generation/formatting/printing
-  TabNanny

Not-so-Good Things:
-  Integrated subversion would be a nice plus.  (Actually, I use Bazaar
anyway.)
-  Programs you start from inside the IDE run as children of SPE, so inherit
SPE's environment.  Not really a Bad Thing, just something to be aware of -
if you make changes to the environment, and want your program to see them,
run it from outside SPE or else restart SPE (which takes a fraction of the
time it takes to restart Eclipse, by the way.)

One Of These Days, I'm sure I'll get around to learning vim, and I'll wonder
what I ever did without it.  Until then, I'm using SPE.

-- 
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[vishwajeet singh]

I use pydev eclipse plugin for python and it saves me alot time.
Packages and modules can be maintained pretty well and if error is in some
dependent file I dont have to go to that folder to open it eclipse does it
for me.
Integration with subversion and JIRA also help me to work in a better way.

On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 1:11 PM, Alan Gauld <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

>
> "Dick Moores" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote
>
>> You've got me wanting to take a look at vim for Windows. I just downloaded
>> the "Self-installing executable   gvim##.exe" which is listed on <
>> http://www.vim.org/download.php#pc>. Is this the sort of vim you're
>> talking about?
>>
>
> Yes that's the one. I'm on v6.3 but I think the latest version is
> up to 7.x? However I tend not to use the newest features so 6.3 meets my
> needs.
>
> Alan G.
>
>
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-- 
Cheers,
Vishwajeet
http://www.singhvishwajeet.com
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Alan Gauld]

"Dick Moores" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote 

You've got me wanting to take a look at vim for Windows. 
I just downloaded the "Self-installing executable   gvim##.exe" 
which is listed on < http://www.vim.org/download.php#pc>. 
Is this the sort of vim you're talking about? 


Yes that's the one. I'm on v6.3 but I think the latest version is
up to 7.x? However I tend not to use the newest features so 
6.3 meets my needs.


Alan G.

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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Dick Moores]

At 05:11 PM 8/12/2008, Alan Gauld wrote:
I use Pythonwin for most of my
short programming tasks
(with occasional forays into other tools like PyCrust and SPE) but for
serious programming I use vim. Why?
Alan,
I used vi/vim a lot years ago in the shell account days. You've got me
wanting to take a look at vim for Windows. I just downloaded the
"Self-installing executable   gvim##.exe"
which is listed on
<
http://www.vim.org/download.php#pc>. Is this the sort of vim
you're talking about? 
Dick Moores
Python 2.51
Win XP
===
Have you seen Kelie Feng's video introducing the terrific and free
IDE, Ulipad?
<
http://www.rcblue.com/u3/> 
Get Ulipad 3.9 from
<
http://code.google.com/p/ulipad/downloads/list>
svn for the latest revision
<
http://ulipad.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/>
Mailing list for Ulipad:
<
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/ulipad>


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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Alan Gauld]

"Jaggo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote


I haven't much experience with programming.

Why do you use your editor rather than using Pywin? 


Thats one of the most contentious issues in programming. 
Coders love their editors like other people love their pets!



What feature has editor X got that PyWin hasn't?


PyWin is a pretty basic editor. Although its much better 
than Notepad and indeed better than IDLE it is still a long 
way short of the power that heavyweight editors like vim, 
emacs, eclipse and so forth have.


I use Pythonwin for most of my short programming tasks
(with occasional forays into other tools like PyCrust and 
SPE) but for serious programming I use vim. Why?


1) Split screen editing of single or multiple files
2) the ability to perform any edit command without taking 
my hands from the keybioard home positioon - very important 
for touch typists! (actually its a lie, I'm not a touch typist, 
but many coders are and its a big deal for them!)
3) integration with the OS. Piping bufrers through the shell, 
running shell commands into a buffer, use of grep to find 
and navigate to files etc
4) navigation around code using tags. GoTo Tag and 
autoloading a file is great.
5) macros. Being able to easily record a keyboard macros 
to automate repetitive tasks is fabulous
6) command repeat compbined with next search. Use the 
n key to go to the next search location and '.' to repeat 
the last editing command at that point is super fast.
7) syntax highlighting in multiple languages not just 
python means I can load SQL files, batch files, HTML 
files etc etc and they are all syntax coloured (Note that 
scintilla the editing widget used in Pythonwin does this 
but pythonwin doesn't use it!)
8) intuitive commands. Once you figure out the arcane 
logic used in the vi command set you can pretty much 
guess what any given command will be.
9) built in help system for the editor. The pythonwin help  
system is more interested in the COM programming etc. 
Its nowhere near as full as the vim help


Against that, pythonwin gains from:

1) easy to learn
2) familiar style to other windows apps
3) better debugger than vim
4) better code browser than vim
5) better collapsing mode than vim
6) better tooltip help

So as a beginner I'd stick to Pythonwin. Once you have got 
the language under your belt you can start lokintg at power 
editors. I'd probably start with Eclipse. It is a more modern 
design than vim but packed with power tools and lots of 
add-in plugins. It may not be quite as fast in pure productivity 
terms but its a lot less intimidating than either vim or emacs.


HTH,


--
Alan Gauld
Author of the Learn to Program web site
http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld

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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[johnf]

On Tuesday 12 August 2008 11:31:44 am Jaggo wrote:
> Hello.
>
> I haven't much experience with programming.
>
> I'd like to point this question to programmers who write in editors other
> than the default PyWin32:
>
> Why do you use your editor rather than using Pywin? What feature has editor
> X got that PyWin hasn't?
> (That is, other than "My editor runs on unix / linux"; while that does
> count for something it is rather irrelevant to my current situation.)
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Omer.

I use wing.  Wing does cost $ (but they have a freebie).  So why am I willing 
to pay for the use of of editor when VIM, eclipse, and many others are 
available free of any cost.   Because I use it on a daily basis and it is 
simple.  I don't have to recall just how to get something done using a 
special command.  I can write scripts, debug (has a very good debugger), code 
completion, provides project management.  Etc... etc...  The bottom line is I 
like it and I'm not alone there are a large number of pro's using wing.  

But you should fine out what you like by testing the editors.  There is a 
large list of editors available including the latest from Netbeans.  

-- 
John Fabiani
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Chad Crabtree]

Well I would imagine that many of the programmers here use emacs or
vim.  I use vim, however I've used komodo for python and I liked it a
lot.

However if you are going to program a great deal (I don't' know what
your intentions are) then I recomend taking the 20-40 hour it takes to
learn emacs or vim.  These editors allow you to shovel around code
like your a ditch digger, with cybernetic implants.

Vim has code completion and it's very easy to use your keyboard to
switch to specific tabs, instead of ctrl-tab,tab,tab,tab,tab,tab.  It
does have command completion though it requires you to tell it how to
do so.  Syntax highlighting and many other must haves for me. There is
one thing that VIM and emacs have for them that many of the more GUI
editors lack.  That is terminal support that is equal to the GUI
version.

I do a lot of system administration just to get my programming tasks
done and I often do not have physical access to the machine so I need
to do it remotely.  Which is a huge win for me.

On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 4:09 PM, Steve Willoughby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jaggo wrote:
>>
>> Why do you use your editor rather than using Pywin? What feature has
>> editor
>> X got that PyWin hasn't?
>> (That is, other than "My editor runs on unix / linux"; while that does
>> count
>> for something it is rather irrelevant to my current situation.)
>
> I use a different editor (in my case vim) because it has a lot of advanced
> editing features (regular expression searching and replacing, filtering
> ranges of text through commands, and a list of scores of other things) that
> don't exist in the simpler editors built into most IDEs like Pywin or IDLE.
>
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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Steve Willoughby]

Jaggo wrote:

Why do you use your editor rather than using Pywin? What feature has editor
X got that PyWin hasn't?
(That is, other than "My editor runs on unix / linux"; while that does count
for something it is rather irrelevant to my current situation.)


I use a different editor (in my case vim) because it has a lot of 
advanced editing features (regular expression searching and replacing, 
filtering ranges of text through commands, and a list of scores of other 
things) that don't exist in the simpler editors built into most IDEs 
like Pywin or IDLE.


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Re: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?

[Hansen, Mike]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jaggo
> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 12:32 PM
> To: tutor@python.org
> Subject: [Tutor] What has Editor X got that PyWin32 hasn't?
> 
> Hello.
> 
> 
> I haven't much experience with programming.
> 
> I'd like to point this question to programmers who write in 
> editors other than the default PyWin32:
> 
> Why do you use your editor rather than using Pywin? What 
> feature has editor X got that PyWin hasn't?
> (That is, other than "My editor runs on unix / linux"; while 
> that does count for something it is rather irrelevant to my 
> current situation.)
> 
> Thanks in advance,
> Omer.

Is that the editor that comes with Activestate's Python distribution
for Windows? If so, I haven't used in a very long time.

I switch between VIM and Komodo IDE. I don't remember the pythonwin
editor having code completion for python, syntax highlighting for
other languages(Perl?  Ruby? HTML?), ftp, integration with your
favorite source code control system, a spell checker, the ability to
script it or record macros, an MP3 player, voice recognition, a Vulcan
mind-meld programming link,    oh... those last three are probably
in emacs..  %-)

Mike
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