Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
Bill Kendrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: > I, too, am keeping an eye on the KDE answer to The Gimp, since > Gimp is about the only GTK+ based app I've got on my desktop > these days. :^) You *do* use GTK-QT, I hope. (Gives you KDE widgets, colours and icons in GTK apps.) -- Karl Ove Hufthammer ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
On Thu, Jan 13, 2005 at 10:50:44AM +0100, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote: > The new Gimp 2 (currently 2.2.2) interface is *much* better than > earlier versions, though. I honestly don't find it much different, in so far as being kind of a weird interface compared to other apps. It IS quite improved, and much more useful. I might just be used to it, but I'm not sure how much more /usable/ it is. I, too, am keeping an eye on the KDE answer to The Gimp, since Gimp is about the only GTK+ based app I've got on my desktop these days. :^) Note: I love The Gimp, and often help answer people's questions about it, and have done numerous presentations on it. :) -bill! ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
Albert Cahalan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: >> The Gimp's GUI is indeed terrible (and not 'standard'!). > > I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the GUI is terrible. > If you enable the menubar though, it's fairly standard. The new Gimp 2 (currently 2.2.2) interface is *much* better than earlier versions, though. -- Karl Ove Hufthammer ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
On Wed, 2005-01-12 at 17:24, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote: > Albert Cahalan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in > > The Gimp is more age-appropriate. It has a standard GUI > > (and an insane one too, but you can ignore that) > > The Gimp's GUI is indeed terrible (and not 'standard'!). I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks the GUI is terrible. If you enable the menubar though, it's fairly standard. I think the problems run deeper than the surface. In any case, they have a Bugzilla. You can help them to see the light. They'll most likely brush you off, but with enough distinct bug reporters... well, one can hope. KDE has something that might be more to your liking. It's not as powerful as the Gimp, but it's way easier and has a totally standard Qt-based interface. Probably the Tux Paint documentation should point to both of these, to handle kids that are getting too old for Tux Paint. ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 11:07:50PM +0100, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote: > Bill Kendrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: > > > Also, while I had to duplicate others' work (those who make Oops ... s/had/hate/ > > operating systems like Linux and Windows), we might want to > > support 'user sessions' /within/ Tux Paint. > > Sounds complicated. Complication I'd like to avoid. ;^) > >> Preferably the images should be moved to the trashcan in the > >> users system (KDE, GNOME, Windows, Mac), and not deleted. > >> (But we don't need a UI for getting it back.) > > > > Not a bad idea! > > But non-trivial to implement. We must first check if the user is > running either KDE or GNOME (or something else), and then check > where the trashcan is placed (not, it's *not* always in > Desktop/Trashcan). For Windows I guess the location is stored some > obscure place in the registry. I was afraid someone'd mention that. ;) -bill! ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 11:24:03PM +0100, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote: > The Gimp's GUI is indeed terrible (and not 'standard'!). I'll say this: it's better than Blender. ;) -bill! ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 06:06:34PM -0400, Ben Armstrong wrote: > In the end, I think there's a place both for "personal stuff" and > sharing when it comes to Tux Paint. I'd like to see Tux Paint operate > equally well in both environments. The --nodelete idea is a great way > to do this, because every child can have their own stuff & not have it > wrecked, and yet all pictures on the shared account are available for > others to view, admire, and copy without deleting the original. Sounds great, esp. when combined with "--saveovernew" mode. :) -bill! ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
Ben Armstrong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Because of the cognitive skills and time factors I mentioned > in my last post, I think this is not always a bad idea. Do we > have an emerging pattern of various settings that, taken as a > group, make good defaults for a group environment? If so, > should we ship a docs/examples/tuxpaint.group.conf with > "typical" settings for such use? saveover=new? (This should also automatically be implied by --nodelete.) Perhaps uppercase=yes for young children? (Though many of strings used do not fit when rended as all uppercase.) And I believe there is a bug report of a slideshow feature that would be useful in a group context. -- Karl Ove Hufthammer ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
Albert Cahalan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: >>> That button makes me nervous. >>> >>> a. mistakes >>> b. destruction of another kid's work >>> c. destruction of own work >>> >>> If anything should be hard to get at, this is it. >>> Control-click or shift-click would do. >> >> No, don't make it more difficult to use. It pops up a warning >> dialogue, so (a) and (c) should ~never happen. > > I think it's time you and your kids migrated to the Gimp. > Your changes are nice for high school kids, but terrible > for normal 5-year-old kids. Hmm? My changes? I have advocated having *no* changes here. It's you that that wanted to change the delete button we currently have to some obscure 'Alt-Ctrl-Shift-click' combination. > The Gimp is more age-appropriate. It has a standard GUI > (and an insane one too, but you can ignore that) The Gimp's GUI is indeed terrible (and not 'standard'!). -- Karl Ove Hufthammer ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
Bill Kendrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: > Also, while I had to duplicate others' work (those who make > operating systems like Linux and Windows), we might want to > support 'user sessions' /within/ Tux Paint. Sounds complicated. >> Preferably the images should be moved to the trashcan in the >> users system (KDE, GNOME, Windows, Mac), and not deleted. >> (But we don't need a UI for getting it back.) > > Not a bad idea! But non-trivial to implement. We must first check if the user is running either KDE or GNOME (or something else), and then check where the trashcan is placed (not, it's *not* always in Desktop/Trashcan). For Windows I guess the location is stored some obscure place in the registry. -- Karl Ove Hufthammer http://blogg.huftis.org/ ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
On Wed, 2005-01-12 at 17:46 -0400, Ben Armstrong wrote: > I can imagine in a lab/classroom setting that gives children > the freedom to do so, such sharing could be commonplace, or the computer > might be set up without accounts altogether. This would be a good > thing, and I think is something the design of Tux Paint should > accomodate for. I just wanted to say a couple of more words about this, because I really feel strongly about it: Consider the social factors: Just like sharing of personal toys, sharing of personal accounts demonstrates the child has learned social behaviour. All of my children, except the three year old, understand "ownership" of each of their accounts, and all of the things that entails: privacy, organizing it the way they want it, and not wanting to have it wrecked. They also understand that when they use another person's account, they should respect that person's privacy, arrangement of their account the way they want it, and not wanting to have it wrecked. Now, consider the social implications of a classroom or lab where there are no personal accounts at all. Does it lead to deliberate vandalism of each others drawings? If so, are there consequences? What can a child whose drawing has been deliberately vandalised do about it? Social context is everything, of course. This could be either a great learning experience in the right context, or an absolutely horrible, unmanageable mess ni the wrong context. But that's up to those setting up the lab, isn't it? I prefer to see the positive potential. How about sharing of ideas? Increased ease of collaboration, or learning from each others' styles? Here is the computer, a wonderful medium on which drawings can be made, copied and modified over and over again, all from the same original. Having all children use one computer and one account means an opportunity for this kind of creative sharing that wouldn't be there if each user had their own account. In the end, I think there's a place both for "personal stuff" and sharing when it comes to Tux Paint. I'd like to see Tux Paint operate equally well in both environments. The --nodelete idea is a great way to do this, because every child can have their own stuff & not have it wrecked, and yet all pictures on the shared account are available for others to view, admire, and copy without deleting the original. Ben ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
On Wed, 2005-01-12 at 13:24 -0800, Bill Kendrick wrote: > You'd be surprised how many schools just use the same single account > for ALL users in a class... or worse yet, in an entire school! :^( Because of the cognitive skills and time factors I mentioned in my last post, I think this is not always a bad idea. Do we have an emerging pattern of various settings that, taken as a group, make good defaults for a group environment? If so, should we ship a docs/examples/tuxpaint.group.conf with "typical" settings for such use? Maybe also a docs/examples/tuxpaint.ltsp.conf? What other "typical" usage scenarios can we think of? Ben ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
On Wed, 2005-01-12 at 22:05 +0100, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote: > Albert Cahalan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: > > >> Yeah, "where to put delete?" has been my issue all along. > > > > That button makes me nervous. > > b. destruction of another kid's work > (b) is a more general problem, solved by kids having their own > account (usually the case for schools, and in Linux?). But we > could add a 'nodelete' option (if it doesn't exist already -- I > can't be bothered to check). For very small kids (ages 2 to 4,) having to log in may not be worth the effort to support it. Also, where computers are a limited resource, kids are numerous, and total time available to play is short, login time per child can be quite brief. In such an environment, having to log out and log in again takes away from the total time available to play. I have observed this pattern among my children at home (all five of whom have their own accounts, by the way, and range from ages 3 to 14,) when time is short, and another child wants to play on the computer: a child will voluntarily help a (usually younger) child out by sharing her account. I can imagine in a lab/classroom setting that gives children the freedom to do so, such sharing could be commonplace, or the computer might be set up without accounts altogether. This would be a good thing, and I think is something the design of Tux Paint should accomodate for. Let's not rule out certain kinds of use just because they don't fit our preconceptions. I think we should expect a certain amount of sharing of sessions, either informally between kids with their own accounts, or because the system is set up to be always logged in for all kids to use. Ben ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
On Wed, 2005-01-12 at 16:05, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote: > Albert Cahalan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: > > >> Yeah, "where to put delete?" has been my issue all along. > > > > That button makes me nervous. > > > > a. mistakes > > b. destruction of another kid's work > > c. destruction of own work > > > > If anything should be hard to get at, this is it. > > Control-click or shift-click would do. > > No, don't make it more difficult to use. It pops up a warning > dialogue, so (a) and (c) should ~never happen. I think it's time you and your kids migrated to the Gimp. Your changes are nice for high school kids, but terrible for normal 5-year-old kids. The Gimp is more age-appropriate. It has a standard GUI (and an insane one too, but you can ignore that) and it offers all the power you want. You can even teach scripting. ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 10:05:26PM +0100, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote: > (b) is a more general problem, solved by kids having their own > account (usually the case for schools, and in Linux?). But we > could add a 'nodelete' option (if it doesn't exist already -- I > can't be bothered to check). Not a bad idea. Also, while I had to duplicate others' work (those who make operating systems like Linux and Windows), we might want to support 'user sessions' /within/ Tux Paint. This can be handled, partially, with the "--savedir" option, at the moment. You'd be surprised how many schools just use the same single account for ALL users in a class... or worse yet, in an entire school! :^( > Preferably the images should be moved to the trashcan in the users > system (KDE, GNOME, Windows, Mac), and not deleted. (But we don't > need a UI for getting it back.) Not a bad idea! -bill! ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
Albert Cahalan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: >> Yeah, "where to put delete?" has been my issue all along. > > That button makes me nervous. > > a. mistakes > b. destruction of another kid's work > c. destruction of own work > > If anything should be hard to get at, this is it. > Control-click or shift-click would do. No, don't make it more difficult to use. It pops up a warning dialogue, so (a) and (c) should ~never happen. (b) is a more general problem, solved by kids having their own account (usually the case for schools, and in Linux?). But we could add a 'nodelete' option (if it doesn't exist already -- I can't be bothered to check). > With all modifier keys, supress comfirmation. > (Alt-Ctrl-Shift-click) > > Perhaps there should be support for undo, at least > until the open mode is left. Preferably the images should be moved to the trashcan in the users system (KDE, GNOME, Windows, Mac), and not deleted. (But we don't need a UI for getting it back.) -- Karl Ove Hufthammer ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
On Wed, 2005-01-12 at 13:21, Bill Kendrick wrote: > On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 07:13:38PM +0100, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote: > > But in Tux Paint we need the ability delete the images. Therefore > > double-clicking the images (or clicking 'Open') works better. (And > > this is the way open dialogues on Linux and Windows work.) > > Yeah, "where to put delete?" has been my issue all along. That button makes me nervous. a. mistakes b. destruction of another kid's work c. destruction of own work If anything should be hard to get at, this is it. Control-click or shift-click would do. With all modifier keys, supress comfirmation. (Alt-Ctrl-Shift-click) Perhaps there should be support for undo, at least until the open mode is left. ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
On Wed, Jan 12, 2005 at 07:13:38PM +0100, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote: > But in Tux Paint we need the ability delete the images. Therefore > double-clicking the images (or clicking 'Open') works better. (And > this is the way open dialogues on Linux and Windows work.) Yeah, "where to put delete?" has been my issue all along. -bill! ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
Albert Cahalan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: >> I disagree. I think Tux Paint should work like other >> Linux/Windows programs (only with different-*looking* >> controls). In those programs, the open dialogue have 'Open' >> and 'Cancel' buttons. Consistency is a good thing! (Back >> should be renamed 'Cancel', BTW.) > > Consider all the web browsers and web sites. Why? Why not consider all other user applications with open dialogues? This is a better object for comparison. > The back button takes you back. > A single click on a thumbnail will load an image. But in Tux Paint we need the ability delete the images. Therefore double-clicking the images (or clicking 'Open') works better. (And this is the way open dialogues on Linux and Windows work.) >> And we *can* get rid of the 'Colours' label, and increasing >> the space for the colours buckets. > > The stamps need the space more. Fine by me. > Grabbing the label too would be another much-needed slot. Well, I don't like this idea as much. :) -- Karl Ove Hufthammer ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
On Wed, 2005-01-12 at 11:40, Karl Ove Hufthammer wrote: > Bill Kendrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: > >> The "Load" dialog has lots of dead space. > > > >> There are some other > >> possibilities though: the toolbar could be active, so that > >> the "Back" button becomes unneeded. > > > > I've thought of this in the past, as well. I think we should > > go this route. > > I disagree. I think Tux Paint should work like other Linux/Windows > programs (only with different-*looking* controls). In those > programs, the open dialogue have 'Open' and 'Cancel' buttons. > Consistency is a good thing! (Back should be renamed 'Cancel', > BTW.) Consider all the web browsers and web sites. The back button takes you back. A single click on a thumbnail will load an image. Clicking on the side navigation menu will leave the thumbnail page. > And we *can* get rid of the 'Colours' > label, and increasing the space for the colours buckets. The stamps need the space more. Grabbing the label too would be another much-needed slot. ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
Bill Kendrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: >> I think that "New" should have a dialog. It would be like >> the "Load" dialog, containing the starters and a blank >> canvas. > > This is not a bad idea. I agree. >> The "Load" dialog has lots of dead space. > >> There are some other >> possibilities though: the toolbar could be active, so that >> the "Back" button becomes unneeded. > > I've thought of this in the past, as well. I think we should > go this route. I disagree. I think Tux Paint should work like other Linux/Windows programs (only with different-*looking* controls). In those programs, the open dialogue have 'Open' and 'Cancel' buttons. Consistency is a good thing! (Back should be renamed 'Cancel', BTW.) >> BTW, the green labels can simply be removed. Especially >> the "Colors" one is useless, but I don't think the other >> two are particularly useful either. Little kids simply >> click on them instead of reading them, thus receiving no >> benefit and a loss of screen space. > > What do other folks think about this? I'm not sure it's a bad > idea, but I'm also not totally sold on it. :^) Me neither. While I agree they aren't *needed*, they still add some colour to the UI. But perhaps they should be changed to not look so much like buttons? And we *can* get rid of the 'Colours' label, and increasing the space for the colours buckets. -- Karl Ove Hufthammer ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
Re: [Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
On Thu, Dec 23, 2004 at 09:02:34AM -0500, Albert Cahalan wrote: > I think that "New" should have a dialog. It would be like > the "Load" dialog, containing the starters and a blank > canvas. This is not a bad idea. > This gets the starters out of the "Load" dialog, > reducing confusion. It also makes for easy selection of > a background color. (if the starters don't get moved, > then instead the "New" button should be eliminated in > favor of an all-white starter) I think the 'New' button should stay, but bring up a dialog. > The "Load" dialog has lots of dead space. > There are some other > possibilities though: the toolbar could be active, so > that the "Back" button becomes unneeded. I've thought of this in the past, as well. I think we should go this route. > BTW, the green labels can simply be removed. Especially > the "Colors" one is useless, but I don't think the other > two are particularly useful either. Little kids simply > click on them instead of reading them, thus receiving no > benefit and a loss of screen space. What do other folks think about this? I'm not sure it's a bad idea, but I'm also not totally sold on it. :^) Thanks! Happy Holidays, everyone!!! -bill! [EMAIL PROTECTED] Have I been helpful? http://newbreedsoftware.com/http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=billkendrick ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
[Tuxpaint-dev] dead space and New dialog
I think that "New" should have a dialog. It would be like the "Load" dialog, containing the starters and a blank canvas. This gets the starters out of the "Load" dialog, reducing confusion. It also makes for easy selection of a background color. (if the starters don't get moved, then instead the "New" button should be eliminated in favor of an all-white starter) The "Load" dialog has lots of dead space. The obvious solution is to enlarge the dialog to cover the tools, tool options, and color selector. There are some other possibilities though: the toolbar could be active, so that the "Back" button becomes unneeded. The buttons could go in the tool option area on the right, or even in the far right side of the Tux area. Better yet, the buttons could be eliminated (one click to load a file) if the highly-dangerous delete feature were moved elsewhere. BTW, the green labels can simply be removed. Especially the "Colors" one is useless, but I don't think the other two are particularly useful either. Little kids simply click on them instead of reading them, thus receiving no benefit and a loss of screen space. Thoughts? ___ Tuxpaint-dev mailing list Tuxpaint-dev@tux4kids.net http://tux4kids.net/mailman/listinfo/tuxpaint-dev
