Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Martin Owens]

On Tue, 2011-02-22 at 15:27 +0300, Сергей wrote:
> It's obviously not a
> problem of one person (as some people seem to be trying to present
> it) 

I don't think the worlds problems are due to one person, but the
problems of this member's behavior are a continuing issue. Thorwill
didn't leave because of 'lack of direction', he left because of bad
behavior.

We can get distracted by leadership questions once we've sorted out this
issue which continues to harm this team.

Martin,


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Vishnoo]

Since some of the recent active members are new, A few notes:

Kenneth Wimer is still the team leader, but since his new job, he has
gotten very busy with work and less active here.

Thorsten Wilms had been the wiki admin for the Artwork/* section for
more than 3-4 yrs. And he had been the longest active member here until
recently. He subscribed to the Artwork/* section namespace and kept it
organized.
You wouldnt believe the amount of cleanup he had to do, to keep things
in order. People would often submit their theme proposals/design ideas
in the wrong place or edit the wrong page with the wrong info. The
content would not even be related to artwork, might just be random
ideas.
So I've been helping him recently with the wiki.

Both Kenneth, Thorsten and several of the older Ubuntu members hang out
in #ubuntu-artwork IRC channel, and also the Canonical design team
members hang out there.
Changes to the wiki are *not* done by just one person's wishes, atleast
one other member is always consulted before editing or moving content.

So even if Thorsten(being the wiki admin) wanted to move content, he
would first notify/ask Kenneth, over irc, and then move content. This is
quicker since the senior members always hang out there and the channel
is logged.
So If I've had to move the content I'd ask Thorsten or Kenneth first, on
the irc channel, and only after getting a go-ahead from them would then
move it appropriately.

=

On Tue, 2011-02-22 at 17:11 +0300, Сергей wrote:
2011/2/22 Vishnoo 
> On Tue, 2011-02-22 at 15:27 +0300, Сергей wrote:
> >  people messing up the official wiki without discussing the changes
> > first as a consequence.
> 
> 
> Let me ask this first, When should content/tasks be added to the
> official wiki?
> 
> Everything shall be kept in personal namespaces or some staging section of 
> the wiki, and applied to the main wiki when it's finished and accepted in the 
> decision-making process.
> 
> 

Exactly why I moved that task to John's namespace with the comment:
" Personal interest page, not yet accepted as a task for the artwork
team. So moving it to John's page "



On Tue, 2011-02-22 at 15:27 +0300, Сергей wrote:
> 
> I think we need to generalize the facts and go from particular cases
> to more general issues. Let's recall the annoying cases first: Natty
> wallpaper specification war-of-edits intertwined with Flick group
> duplication (links: 1, 2, 3, 4 and probably more),


As I mentioned above, The task was added to the Artwork team's namespace
before bringing up any discussion nor was it approved, hence it was
moved to the user's namespace pending the discussion here.


>  conflict about the way to list tasks (everybody got pissed off and
> the page got abandoned). 

That page was recently completely redone by John and Thorsten[as the
wiki admin] found it difficult to maintain the wiki and thought it was
an appropriate change to be made. He also asked the question here and
waited for one week(?) before making the changes. And no one else
replied. Not sure who "everybody" refers to here.

Contrary to your belief (since you were not aware), Thorsten or my edits
are not done just by one person's initiative. There is *always* a second
consult.

> It's obviously not a problem of one person 

Nope, its the same person who has repeatedly used(abused?) the Artwork/*
namespace as he wished *without consulting* anyone else and the
subsequent edits to the  pages were *reverts*. Note nothing was
wrong/misleading was added there.


IMO, If we had reacted quicker about John's illustration wiki page too,
there would have been less of a debacle with the second group.
Once task is in the Artwork wiki namespace people think it is official
and approved task. 

This adding of ones own self interest tasks *must* be avoided.


> QUESTIONABLE BLOCK:
> Actually, I think we need more than that. We need a clear process for
> writing specifications, with Canonical Design Team involved.

I dont think Canonical design team are they required to do more work
here nor will help with this.

They work only on Ubuntu and not on the sister distros.
If they have announced a task for Ubuntu, it already has a
specification.
They have always announced with what they require. That is all they are
looking for. There is no additional work required from anyone in this
team to write new (improved?) specs for the Ubuntu tasks announced by
the design team. All that is required is to submit work. 

If the task is for a sister distro, then there needs to be work done by
the team member who takes the initiative. This we cant expect help from
Canonical design team. Whoever takes on the task, acts as the design
team for the sister distro.


Let's get atleast one thing very very clear:

 For *Ubuntu* tasks announced by design team, *no secondary action* from
anyone in the community here is required(myself included). No one needs
to improve anything to announced tasks.
All that i

Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Сергей]

2011/2/22 Vishnoo 

> On Tue, 2011-02-22 at 15:27 +0300, Сергей wrote:
> >  people messing up the official wiki without discussing the changes
> > first as a consequence.
>
> Let me ask this first, When should content/tasks be added to the
> official wiki?
>

Everything shall be kept in personal namespaces or some staging section of
the wiki, and applied to the main wiki when it's finished and accepted in
the decision-making process.
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Vishnoo]

On Tue, 2011-02-22 at 15:27 +0300, Сергей wrote:
>  people messing up the official wiki without discussing the changes
> first as a consequence. 

Let me ask this first, When should content/tasks be added to the
official wiki?


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Сергей]

I guess we got off the initial topic.

We first need to identify the issue to fix the situation.
> We need to state clearly what our problem is, before we seek advice from
> Jono/Ivanka.


I think we need to generalize the facts and go from particular cases to more
general issues. Let's recall the annoying cases first: Natty wallpaper
specification war-of-edits intertwined with Flick group duplication (links:
1 ,
2,
3 ,
4and
probably more), conflict
about the way to list
tasks(everybody
got pissed off and the page got abandoned). It's obviously not a
problem of one person (as some people seem to be trying to present it)
because different people were involved in the cases listed above. The
problem #1 as I see it: lack of decision-making process. And *people messing
up the official wiki without discussing the changes first* as a consequence.
As a former wiki admin, I do know a solution. But I don't want to propose it
because we don't have a decision-making process and therefore we won't be
able to accept or decline it (recursive issue, lol). That's why I want
somebody with experience and authority to come and establish the rule.

QUESTIONABLE BLOCK:
Actually, I think we need more than that. We need a clear process for
writing specifications, with Canonical Design Team involved. It will prevent
cases like duplication of places to submit entries (like it happened with
Natty wallpapers flickr group) and questionable specification details (like
it happened with Natty alternate wallpapers proposal). Incomplete and
proposal specifications must be in a separate place, not on the main board,
etc.
END OF QUESTIONABLE BLOCK
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Vishnoo]

On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 08:44 -0500, Saleel Velankar wrote:
>  If I have to go to the blog to find out about important changes, then
> what exactly is the point of being here?

Regarding Communications from the design team, IMO, this cycle they have
improved this multifold. 
We have an increased number of design team members subscribed here and
answering questions, than last cycle.
If someone asks a question, they are responding. Afair, all (almost?)
questions raised for the design team have been responded to.

Regarding directing to blogs, i recall Ivanka posting the survey here
too. Or, some member or the other has reposted the blog posts here. IIRC
we may have missed the submissions update post alone, we could request
them to make sure to post here too. 

The situation is not yet perfect but it's better. 
We also need to understand that most of the design team members are
completely new to open source and it might take a while for them to
adjust.


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Vishnoo]

On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 08:44 -0500, Saleel Velankar wrote:
> 
> I asked for critique on a wallpaper idea I was playing with, and other
> than yourself I got 0 feedback. Again what is the point? I could have
> --no I should have just asked for your opinion over IRC. It would have
> been a heck of a lot quicker.

How would you suggest we increase critique on this list?

A while ago, I had suggested that we make sure that the team here is
notified about submissions and that we discuss, which had people for and
against and it ended in a draw.

Look at the Ubuntu CD cover discussion, the only reason there is an
"art/design" discussion was because the original author showcased his
work here. and he modified his work accordingly. 
Without similar announcements I'm not sure how art discussions will
happen here.

Anyone got any ideas how to improve this?

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Martin Owens]

On Sat, 2011-02-19 at 16:37 +0530, Vishnoo wrote:
> 
> 
> Sure, a meeting to resolve this sounds good.
> 
> Someone kindly take the initiative and set a date&time when John can
> attend.

We tried that. It didn't work so well. I think we'd need personal
attention from the CC. As an Ubuntu team our communal authority is the
Code of Conduct and the Community Council. Jono and Ivanka are great
people to go to for advice and they will help, but they're not the right
people if they are the only people to get involved.

Martin,


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Сергей]

>
> Banning a person is the last resource. If you have tried to resolve the
> issue privately and failed, why don't you take it publicly? We can have a
> meeting on IRC with John and the rest of the team and see if we can agree on
> how to move forward. What do you think?
>

I don't quite like the idea... I mean, this seems sane, but there are
shortcomings in this approach too. And I think we should consult Ivanka
Majic or Jono Bacon or other experienced person before taking *any* action.
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Vishnoo]

On Sat, 2011-02-19 at 00:36 -0600, Leandro Gómez wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Vishnoo  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 19:30 -0500, coz DS wrote:
> >
> > We all need to do our part in trying to talk with jbaer,
> other
> > than those that already have, to help him understand that
> his behavior
> > is not team oriented and a destructive path which only leads
> to people
> > leaving the group. 
> >
> > I personally want to know why this decision... why these
> > misleading links ,, What the hell was he thinking!
> >
> >  Events like this, which compound the existing issues
> the group
> > has,, only pushes away any possibility of real recognition
> of the
> > community art team by canonical!
> >
> > coz
> 
> 
> 
> I'm +1 on this, exactly why us banning him is not going to
> help.
> 
> John needs to explain his actions and course-correct his
> attitude.
> He needs to correct his behavior, or if he is not able to
> correct
> himself he needs to quit on his own.
> 
> Someone else banning him wont help here, and might blow this
> 'silly
> drama' out of proportion
> 
> 
> 
> To me, this whole situation has already been blown out of proportion. 
> 
> 
> Really... it's a no brainer. If someone is threatening the team, what
> do you do? Wait and see if the problem resolves itself or take action?
> 
> 
> Banning a person is the last resource. If you have tried to resolve
> the issue privately and failed, why don't you take it publicly? We can
> have a meeting on IRC with John and the rest of the team and see if we
> can agree on how to move forward. What do you think?
> 
> 
> Cheers,
>  

Sure, a meeting to resolve this sounds good.

Someone kindly take the initiative and set a date&time when John can
attend.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Leandro Gómez]

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Vishnoo  wrote:

> On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 19:30 -0500, coz DS wrote:
> >
> > Hey guys
> >
> >  Bad taste.. wrong timing...or just plain being an ass... the
> > links offered by jbaer came at  an inappropriate time.
> > Let the judging of the included wallpapers finish..then do what you
> > like... but official stuff needs to have a single place for
> > submissions.
> >
> > I have really never heard any "harsh" criticisms of work.. if they
> > are bad pieces  and saying "these are bad"  is harsh then please more
> > harshness :)
> >  Quite frankly I can go to  gnome-look.org and download wallpapers
> > without worries, or create my own, so I am not clear on the
> > "explanation" given by him.
> >
> >The private emails, which initially tried to  resolve this issue,
> > were a great idea,,, it failed,, I dont think private conversations
> > are needed any longer.
> >
> >   Also... people...please remember that NO ONE on the community art
> > team is going to have final say for ANY content that makes it into
> > Ubuntu,,, that is strictly Canonical's decision...but the
> > opportunity , this judging is giving the community, is one step closer
> > to the community art team becoming a formidable force in making final
> > decisions of Ubuntu's content. However, with this "major" glitch in
> > the process, we have taken several steps backwards, perhaps more!
> >Imagine the disappointment and frustration that is going to arise
> > from those that submitted work to a "false"  site in hopes of their
> > pieces being included in Ubuntu release once they find out ... all too
> > late... that they have been mislead !
> >
> > We all need to do our part in trying to talk with jbaer, other
> > than those that already have, to help him understand that his behavior
> > is not team oriented and a destructive path which only leads to people
> > leaving the group. We should also try to contact everyone that has
> > submitted work to his links, so they know their work will NOT be
> > considered.
> >
> > I personally want to know why this decision... why these
> > misleading links ,, What the hell was he thinking!
> >
> >  Events like this, which compound the existing issues the group
> > has,, only pushes away any possibility of real recognition of the
> > community art team by canonical!
> >
> > "Banning"  him will only exacerbate the   situation.
> >
> >   welcomed or not...those are my thoughts on the issue.
> >
> >
> >
> > coz
>
>
> I'm +1 on this, exactly why us banning him is not going to help.
>
> John needs to explain his actions and course-correct his attitude.
> He needs to correct his behavior, or if he is not able to correct
> himself he needs to quit on his own.
>
> Someone else banning him wont help here, and might blow this 'silly
> drama' out of proportion
>
>
To me, this whole situation has already been blown out of proportion.

Really... it's a no brainer. If someone is threatening the team, what do you
do? Wait and see if the problem resolves itself or take action?

Banning a person is the last resource. If you have tried to resolve the
issue privately and failed, why don't you take it publicly? We can have a
meeting on IRC with John and the rest of the team and see if we can agree on
how to move forward. What do you think?

Cheers,


> --
> Cheers,
> Vish
>
>
> --
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> ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Vishnoo]

On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 19:30 -0500, coz DS wrote:
> 
> Hey guys
> 
>  Bad taste.. wrong timing...or just plain being an ass... the
> links offered by jbaer came at  an inappropriate time.
> Let the judging of the included wallpapers finish..then do what you
> like... but official stuff needs to have a single place for
> submissions.
>   
> I have really never heard any "harsh" criticisms of work.. if they
> are bad pieces  and saying "these are bad"  is harsh then please more
> harshness :)
>  Quite frankly I can go to  gnome-look.org and download wallpapers
> without worries, or create my own, so I am not clear on the
> "explanation" given by him.
>  
>The private emails, which initially tried to  resolve this issue,
> were a great idea,,, it failed,, I dont think private conversations
> are needed any longer.  
> 
>   Also... people...please remember that NO ONE on the community art
> team is going to have final say for ANY content that makes it into
> Ubuntu,,, that is strictly Canonical's decision...but the
> opportunity , this judging is giving the community, is one step closer
> to the community art team becoming a formidable force in making final
> decisions of Ubuntu's content. However, with this "major" glitch in
> the process, we have taken several steps backwards, perhaps more!
>Imagine the disappointment and frustration that is going to arise
> from those that submitted work to a "false"  site in hopes of their
> pieces being included in Ubuntu release once they find out ... all too
> late... that they have been mislead !
>   
> We all need to do our part in trying to talk with jbaer, other
> than those that already have, to help him understand that his behavior
> is not team oriented and a destructive path which only leads to people
> leaving the group. We should also try to contact everyone that has
> submitted work to his links, so they know their work will NOT be
> considered.
>
> I personally want to know why this decision... why these
> misleading links ,, What the hell was he thinking!
> 
>  Events like this, which compound the existing issues the group
> has,, only pushes away any possibility of real recognition of the
> community art team by canonical!
>   
> "Banning"  him will only exacerbate the   situation. 
>  
>   welcomed or not...those are my thoughts on the issue.
> 
>
> 
> coz


I'm +1 on this, exactly why us banning him is not going to help.

John needs to explain his actions and course-correct his attitude.
He needs to correct his behavior, or if he is not able to correct
himself he needs to quit on his own. 

Someone else banning him wont help here, and might blow this 'silly
drama' out of proportion

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Vish


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[coz DS]

2011/2/18 Leandro Gómez 

> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Vishnoo  wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 15:17 -0600, Leandro Gómez wrote:
>> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Vishnoo  wrote:
>> > On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 13:47 -0600, Leandro Gómez wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I don't like the way this is discussion is turning out.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Of course, one disruptive member can cause a lot of
>> > problems. People
>> > > get frustrated, they resign and cease contributing to the
>> > team.
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > People resigning is what Сергей mentioned as the issue that is
>> > frustrating him.
>> > And hence why I mention how *very* hard Thorsten and Martin
>> > tried to
>> > talk to John into being more part of the team effort instead
>> > of his
>> > disruptive behavior.
>> >
>> > > But, honestly, do you really think the problems of this team
>> > can be
>> > > attributed to one single person's actions?
>> >
>> >
>> > No, this team as other problems too and they need to be fixed
>> > as well.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I agree. I've been on this team for four whole years and there's a lot
>> > of things that needs to be fixed.
>> >
>> >
>> > If one member of the team is disruptive and causes a lot of problems,
>> > I think it's time for the admin to moderate him/her on the list or ban
>> > the person if the problem persists. Sadly, I'm not an admin, so I
>> > can't do anything.
>> >
>> >
>> > Please, fix this so we can move on.
>> >
>>
>> I wish it were as simple as just banning him!
>> Sadly banning John from this mailing list alone does not solve the
>> problems he creates.
>>
>>
> Well, there's not much more we can do?
>
>
>> He actively contacts a large number of artists 'privately' and asks them
>> to take part in the existing contests, presenting himself as the
>> representative of the Ubuntu artwork community , and grabs their
>> interest.
>> Until this part everything is fantastic, but beyond this is where things
>> go completely wrong. He misdirects them to his private groups claiming
>> those to be the place to participate.
>> Why I never understood, but in his own words relying to the previous
>> thread: " I set up an environment which would protect their
>> contributions from the harsh criticism often found on this list. " !!!?
>>
>> IMO, he is acting like a Nigerian spam scammer, just robbing people of
>> their hard work.
>>
>> I'm not sure where/how this behavior can be stopped.
>>
>>
> You can't prevent people from creating private groups. The only thing we
> can do is to improve our communication skills and keep people informed.
>
> I think this is a clear example of what happens when you don't have
> appointed leaders or official communication channels and that is -IMO- our
> main problem. Not John, or Joseph, or Francesco. We need leadership and
> direction.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> Vish
>>
>>
>> --
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>> ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
>> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
>>
>
>
> --
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> ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
>
>
Hey guys

 Bad taste.. wrong timing...or just plain being an ass... the links
offered by jbaer came at  an inappropriate time.
Let the judging of the included wallpapers finish..then do what you like...
but official stuff needs to have a single place for submissions.

I have really never heard any "harsh" criticisms of work.. if they are
bad pieces  and saying "these are bad"  is harsh then please more harshness
:)
 Quite frankly I can go to  gnome-look.org and download wallpapers without
worries, or create my own, so I am not clear on the "explanation" given by
him.

   The private emails, which initially tried to  resolve this issue,  were a
great idea,,, it failed,, I dont think private conversations are needed any
longer.

  Also... people...please remember that NO ONE on the community art team is
going to have final say for ANY content that makes it into Ubuntu,,, that is
strictly Canonical's decision...but the opportunity , this judging is giving
the community, is one step closer to the community art team becoming a
formidable force in making final decisions of Ubuntu's content. However,
with this "major" glitch in the process, we have taken several steps
backwards, perhaps more!
   Imagine the disappointment and frustration that is going to arise from
those that submitted work to a "false"  site in hopes of their pieces being
included in Ubuntu release once they find out ... all too late... that they
have been mislead !

We all need to do our part in trying to talk with jbaer, other than
those that already have, to help him understand that his behavior is not
team oriented and a destructive path which only leads to people leaving the
group. We should also try 

Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Leandro Gómez]

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 4:09 PM, Vishnoo  wrote:

> On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 15:17 -0600, Leandro Gómez wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Vishnoo  wrote:
> > On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 13:47 -0600, Leandro Gómez wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't like the way this is discussion is turning out.
> > >
> > >
> > > Of course, one disruptive member can cause a lot of
> > problems. People
> > > get frustrated, they resign and cease contributing to the
> > team.
> > >
> >
> >
> > People resigning is what Сергей mentioned as the issue that is
> > frustrating him.
> > And hence why I mention how *very* hard Thorsten and Martin
> > tried to
> > talk to John into being more part of the team effort instead
> > of his
> > disruptive behavior.
> >
> > > But, honestly, do you really think the problems of this team
> > can be
> > > attributed to one single person's actions?
> >
> >
> > No, this team as other problems too and they need to be fixed
> > as well.
> >
> >
> >
> > I agree. I've been on this team for four whole years and there's a lot
> > of things that needs to be fixed.
> >
> >
> > If one member of the team is disruptive and causes a lot of problems,
> > I think it's time for the admin to moderate him/her on the list or ban
> > the person if the problem persists. Sadly, I'm not an admin, so I
> > can't do anything.
> >
> >
> > Please, fix this so we can move on.
> >
>
> I wish it were as simple as just banning him!
> Sadly banning John from this mailing list alone does not solve the
> problems he creates.
>
>
Well, there's not much more we can do?


> He actively contacts a large number of artists 'privately' and asks them
> to take part in the existing contests, presenting himself as the
> representative of the Ubuntu artwork community , and grabs their
> interest.
> Until this part everything is fantastic, but beyond this is where things
> go completely wrong. He misdirects them to his private groups claiming
> those to be the place to participate.
> Why I never understood, but in his own words relying to the previous
> thread: " I set up an environment which would protect their
> contributions from the harsh criticism often found on this list. " !!!?
>
> IMO, he is acting like a Nigerian spam scammer, just robbing people of
> their hard work.
>
> I'm not sure where/how this behavior can be stopped.
>
>
You can't prevent people from creating private groups. The only thing we can
do is to improve our communication skills and keep people informed.

I think this is a clear example of what happens when you don't have
appointed leaders or official communication channels and that is -IMO- our
main problem. Not John, or Joseph, or Francesco. We need leadership and
direction.

Cheers,


> --
> Cheers,
> Vish
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Vishnoo]

On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 15:17 -0600, Leandro Gómez wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Vishnoo  wrote:
> On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 13:47 -0600, Leandro Gómez wrote:
> >
> > I don't like the way this is discussion is turning out.
> >
> >
> > Of course, one disruptive member can cause a lot of
> problems. People
> > get frustrated, they resign and cease contributing to the
> team.
> >
> 
> 
> People resigning is what Сергей mentioned as the issue that is
> frustrating him.
> And hence why I mention how *very* hard Thorsten and Martin
> tried to
> talk to John into being more part of the team effort instead
> of his
> disruptive behavior.
> 
> > But, honestly, do you really think the problems of this team
> can be
> > attributed to one single person's actions?
> 
> 
> No, this team as other problems too and they need to be fixed
> as well.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. I've been on this team for four whole years and there's a lot
> of things that needs to be fixed.
> 
> 
> If one member of the team is disruptive and causes a lot of problems,
> I think it's time for the admin to moderate him/her on the list or ban
> the person if the problem persists. Sadly, I'm not an admin, so I
> can't do anything.
> 
> 
> Please, fix this so we can move on.
>  

I wish it were as simple as just banning him!
Sadly banning John from this mailing list alone does not solve the
problems he creates.

He actively contacts a large number of artists 'privately' and asks them
to take part in the existing contests, presenting himself as the
representative of the Ubuntu artwork community , and grabs their
interest.
Until this part everything is fantastic, but beyond this is where things
go completely wrong. He misdirects them to his private groups claiming
those to be the place to participate.
Why I never understood, but in his own words relying to the previous
thread: " I set up an environment which would protect their
contributions from the harsh criticism often found on this list. " !!!?

IMO, he is acting like a Nigerian spam scammer, just robbing people of
their hard work.

I'm not sure where/how this behavior can be stopped.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Leandro Gómez]

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:07 PM, Vishnoo  wrote:

> On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 13:47 -0600, Leandro Gómez wrote:
> >
> > I don't like the way this is discussion is turning out.
> >
> >
> > Of course, one disruptive member can cause a lot of problems. People
> > get frustrated, they resign and cease contributing to the team.
> >
>
> People resigning is what Сергей mentioned as the issue that is
> frustrating him.
> And hence why I mention how *very* hard Thorsten and Martin tried to
> talk to John into being more part of the team effort instead of his
> disruptive behavior.
>
> > But, honestly, do you really think the problems of this team can be
> > attributed to one single person's actions?
>
> No, this team as other problems too and they need to be fixed as well.
>
>
I agree. I've been on this team for four whole years and there's a lot of
things that needs to be fixed.

If one member of the team is disruptive and causes a lot of problems, I
think it's time for the admin to moderate him/her on the list or ban the
person if the problem persists. Sadly, I'm not an admin, so I can't do
anything.

Please, fix this so we can move on.


> But, Thorsten has been part of this team for a very very long time and
> if he had to decide to resign mainly because of one person.
> Then surely this person is a *very* disruptive element and shows how
> incorrigible his behavior is.
> Usually people listen when advised, but John just does not want to
> collaborate.
> There has to be a line drawn at some point and just say enough is
> enough.
> Or as Martin put it "This is not how communities are run and I ask you
> again to step down from the group."
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Vish
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Vishnoo]

On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 13:47 -0600, Leandro Gómez wrote:
> 
> I don't like the way this is discussion is turning out. 
> 
> 
> Of course, one disruptive member can cause a lot of problems. People
> get frustrated, they resign and cease contributing to the team.
> 

People resigning is what Сергей mentioned as the issue that is
frustrating him.
And hence why I mention how *very* hard Thorsten and Martin tried to
talk to John into being more part of the team effort instead of his
disruptive behavior.

> But, honestly, do you really think the problems of this team can be
> attributed to one single person's actions?

No, this team as other problems too and they need to be fixed as well.

But, Thorsten has been part of this team for a very very long time and
if he had to decide to resign mainly because of one person. 
Then surely this person is a *very* disruptive element and shows how
incorrigible his behavior is.
Usually people listen when advised, but John just does not want to
collaborate. 
There has to be a line drawn at some point and just say enough is
enough. 
Or as Martin put it "This is not how communities are run and I ask you
again to step down from the group."


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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Сергей]

2011/2/18 Vishnoo 

> I doubt that, even Thorsten and Martin tried to talk to him in private
> off the mailing list and try to resolve these issues of
> mis-communication, mis-representations.
> But nothing seems to help, hence the magnitude of frustration you notice
> in the replies from Thorsten and Martin.
>

Oh well. Anyway, this goes beyond my experience or knowledge. I think we
have the problem stated quite clearly now, let's ask Ivanka or Jono for
advice.

But, honestly, do you really think the problems of this team can be
> attributed to one single person's actions?
>
+1
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Leandro Gómez]

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 1:14 PM, Vishnoo  wrote:

> On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 21:10 +0300, Сергей wrote:
> > 2011/2/18 Vishnoo 
> > People want to have fun and be productive, and not to
> > constantly have to
> > worry about people creating their own sub-groups and
> > sabotaging existing
> > process for their personal interest.
> >
> > I'm absolutely sure that all people on this list have good
> > intentions.
> >
> I doubt that, even Thorsten and Martin tried to talk to him in private
> off the mailing list and try to resolve these issues of
> mis-communication, mis-representations.
> But nothing seems to help, hence the magnitude of frustration you notice
> in the replies from Thorsten and Martin.
>
>
I don't like the way this is discussion is turning out.

Of course, one disruptive member can cause a lot of problems. People get
frustrated, they resign and cease contributing to the team.

But, honestly, do you really think the problems of this team can be
attributed to one single person's actions?



> --
> Cheers,
> Vish
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Vishnoo]

On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 21:10 +0300, Сергей wrote:
> 2011/2/18 Vishnoo 
> People want to have fun and be productive, and not to
> constantly have to
> worry about people creating their own sub-groups and
> sabotaging existing
> process for their personal interest.
> 
> I'm absolutely sure that all people on this list have good
> intentions. 
> 
I doubt that, even Thorsten and Martin tried to talk to him in private
off the mailing list and try to resolve these issues of
mis-communication, mis-representations. 
But nothing seems to help, hence the magnitude of frustration you notice
in the replies from Thorsten and Martin.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Сергей]

2011/2/18 Vishnoo 

> People want to have fun and be productive, and not to constantly have to
> worry about people creating their own sub-groups and sabotaging existing
> process for their personal interest.
>

I'm absolutely sure that all people on this list have good intentions.
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Vishnoo]

On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 20:02 +0300, Сергей wrote:
> 2011/2/18 Vishnoo 
> @Сергей, Leandro Gómez, Saleel Velankar:
>  can you clearly state what issue has been troubling you?
> 
> My issue is that most people got disappointed and discouraged to the
> point of leaving the team.

We cant really blame him for this, look at the unnecessary drama one
person insists on causing always! 
People want to have fun and be productive, and not to constantly have to
worry about people creating their own sub-groups and sabotaging existing
process for their personal interest.

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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Leandro Gómez]

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 1:00 AM, Vishnoo  wrote:

> Hi,
> Thorsten's recent mail "Goodbye", has generated some response and there
> has been reference to issues and seeking advice from Jono/Ivanka.
>
> Highlighting the relevant replies:
>
> On Thu, 2011-02-17 at 18:40 +0100, Thorsten Wilms wrote:
> > Our combined inability or unwillingness to deal with repeated
> > misrepresentations and incredible ignorance from one member pisses me
> > off to no end and spoils the last bit of fun.
>
> On Thu, 2011-02-17 at 13:41 -0500, Martin Owens wrote:>
> > I understand, I've reduced my participation because of the same member.
> > This team isn't worth being involved with any more because it's a team
> > that only exists to serve one member; a member who will distort, lie and
> > outright misrepresent in order to bully the consensus so things are done
> > his way.
>
> To me, it is pretty clear what Martin and Thorsten refer to.
>
> On Thu, 2011-02-17 at 13:43 -0600, Leandro Gómez wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Сергей  wrote:
> >> On the other hand, the issues are pointed out, so now we can work on
> solving them. After reading Martin's message I think we shall ask Ivanka or
> even Jono Bacon for advice. We just can't let the team fall apart!
> >
> > Yes, it's definitely time to do something. I'm +1 on seeking advice from
> Ivanka and Jono.
> >
>
> On Thu, 2011-02-17 at 18:08 -0500, Saleel Velankar wrote:
> > Thorwil,
> > I too have been dialing back my participation on the list for the very
> same reasons you state.
>
>
> @Сергей, Leandro Gómez, Saleel Velankar:
>  can you clearly state what issue has been troubling you?
>
>
Indecision, lack of identity as a team/community, no goals/objectives
whatsover, no discussion on the list on important issues (something that may
suggest that this is a rather autocratic community), no clear rules for
contributing (plus rules that changes all the time).

In the end, the main problem is that there's a total absence of leadership.



> We first need to identify the issue to fix the situation.
> We need to state clearly what our problem is, before we seek advice from
> Jono/Ivanka.
>
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> Vish
>
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Сергей]

2011/2/18 Vishnoo 

> @Сергей, Leandro Gómez, Saleel Velankar:
>  can you clearly state what issue has been troubling you?
>

My issue is that most people got disappointed and discouraged to the point
of leaving the team.
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Re: [ubuntu-art] Dealing with issues and seeking advice

[Saleel Velankar]

>Saleel Velankar: can you clearly state what issue has been troubling you?

Look I do not want to spend my time talking about how to set up the wiki, or
which groups to add stuff into. I have no interest in dealing with proposals
which are added without discussion, and specs that are pulled without
comment. I have no interest. zilch. schunya. zero interest
in administrating. I came to this list because I thought there was artwork
to get done and it seems infinitely clear to me now that there isn't. If I
have to go to the blog to find out about important changes, then what
exactly is the point of being here?

I asked for critique on a wallpaper idea I was playing with, and other than
yourself I got 0 feedback. Again what is the point? I could have --no I *
should* have just asked for your opinion over IRC. It would have been a heck
of a lot quicker.

For me to contribute, I want a clear system in place. with rules. with
objectives. without a whole lot of herping and derping.

Respectfully,
Saleel
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