Re: Proposal: include Brasero by default

[Jan Claeys]

Op donderdag 17-01-2008 om 22:29 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Jo-Erlend
Schinstad:
> On 17/01/2008, Jan Claeys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Op dinsdag 15-01-2008 om 11:51 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Wouter
> > Stomp:
> > > I would also like to argue for this: Brasero does everything n-c-b
> > > does, and more.
> >
> > Does it provide all the context menu stuff in nautilus which I think is
> > actually n-c-b's strongest point?

> If you mean write to disk, then that's just a matter of adding the
> entry to the menu. You can burn an image to disk by running "brasero
> -i ", and you can burn the contents of the CD/DVD Writer
> window with "brasero -ncb", etc.

I was talking about the context menu for e.g. *.iso files (burn to disk)
and when a mounted CD/DVD is selected (which allows you to copy it to
another CD or make an image from it).  Maybe there are some other
integration things too that i don't use.

If Brasero is going to replace n-c-b, care should be taken to make sure
we don't lose any of this functionality.


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Re: Proposal: include Brasero by default

[Jan Claeys]

Op dinsdag 15-01-2008 om 11:51 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Wouter
Stomp:
> I would also like to argue for this: Brasero does everything n-c-b
> does, and more.

Does it provide all the context menu stuff in nautilus which I think is
actually n-c-b's strongest point?


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Re: Proposal: include Brasero by default

[David Prieto Ucha]

Hi again Matthew,

Yes there is. That problem is less serious, because people who use photo
> or music management applications typically use them more frequently than
> they use nautilus-cd-burner, so they have more time to learn the
> inconsistencies. But it is still suboptimal that, for example, deleting
> an item in F-Spot, in Rhythmbox, and in Nautilus is done with three
> gratuitously different menu items.
>
> I didn't say "exactly like", I said "a strict superset of". And the
> reason not being a superset makes the app more complex is, as I also
> said in the part you snipped, "All these differences people shouldn't
> have to learn".


I understand your points, and although I strongly disagree with some of them
I can only accept your view on the subject and hope it's for the better -
I'm just a user, after all.

I still feel deeply uncomfortable about having two separate apps for disc
burning, though, so I would like to file some bugs in hopes that Brasero
will in upcoming versions be suitable even for beginners. I can start with
the ones you already said but, could you -if you have the spare time- say if
there is anything else you find unacceptable? And in case those issues are
solved for, say, Hardy+1, would it be OK to move Brasero to places → cd
creator, and ditch NCB altogether?

Regards,

David.
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Re: Proposal: include Brasero by default

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

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David Prieto Ucha wrote:
> 
>> Removing nautilus-cd-burner wouldn't fix the problem you describe:
>> unnecessary UI inconsistency would still exist with Brasero vs. Nautilus
>> itself. Why is creating a new folder done one way in Nautilus, and
>> another way in Brasero? Why is removing files from a folder done way in
>> Nautilus, and another way in Brasero? Why does the confirmation alert
>> for replacing an item with the same name have different text and buttons
>> in Brasero than it does in Nautilus? Why does Brasero refer to
>> non-existent "projects"? And so on.
> 
> I think those would only qualify as inconsistencies if the user happens to
> expect a burning app to have the same interface as the file manager, which I
> think is not the case. I mean, we have a photo management app that does NOT
> look exactly like the file manager and a music management app that does NOT
> look exactly like the file manager, and there was never a problem with
> those.

Yes there is. That problem is less serious, because people who use photo
or music management applications typically use them more frequently than
they use nautilus-cd-burner, so they have more time to learn the
inconsistencies. But it is still suboptimal that, for example, deleting
an item in F-Spot, in Rhythmbox, and in Nautilus is done with three
gratuitously different menu items.

> What makes you believe that it would be otherwise with CD burning? Why do
> you think NOT looking and behaving exactly like a file manager makes
> a burning app more complex to use?

I didn't say "exactly like", I said "a strict superset of". And the
reason not being a superset makes the app more complex is, as I also
said in the part you snipped, "All these differences people shouldn't
have to learn".

For example, Brasero has a handy capacity indicator for burnable discs,
but because it's in Brasero, I can use it only for burnable discs. If it
was available in Nautilus (and therefore also in nautilus-cd-burner), I
could use it for all devices, including USB keys and external hard drives.

> I'm eager to do some  testing with family and friends, BTW. Get them to burn
> some stuff with Brasero, see if they have any problems or raise any of the
> afforementioned issues.

User testing would be great! There are some tips for how to do it on the
Ubuntu wiki.  Remember,
though, that user testing usually finds only big problems -- it rarely
finds small problems, and designing solutions to the problems is a
separate process.

Cheers
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Re: Proposal: include Brasero by default

[Jo-Erlend Schinstad]

On 16/01/2008, Corey Burger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The difference here is that burning a cd of files is basically the
> same as managing files, as where as managing your music/photos is a
> very different thing, with defined tasks, etc. For that matter, Fspot
> and RB should make it trivial to burn photo/music/mp3 cds within their
> interfaces, leaving NCB for burning random files.
>
> Corey

I couldn't disagree more. Should xchat have its own CD burner, for
instance? To burn logs or downloaded files to a cd? No, what we need,
is a single, available and reasonably simple way of doing things, not
one way for each conceivable application. It would be impossible to
manage, and making the system alot less clean. Or would it be possible
to convert all open source applications this way? I don't think so,
even if we wanted to.

Brasero is easy to use. I think it should be moved from Sound & Video
to Accessories or System Tools though. Backing up data doesn't have
anything to do with sound or video, even if it's possible to backup
music too.

Jo-Erlend Schinstad

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Re: Proposal: include Brasero by default

[Corey Burger]

On Jan 15, 2008 2:12 PM, David Prieto Ucha <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Removing nautilus-cd-burner wouldn't fix the problem you describe:
> > unnecessary UI inconsistency would still exist with Brasero vs. Nautilus
> > itself. Why is creating a new folder done one way in Nautilus, and
> > another way in Brasero? Why is removing files from a folder done way in
> > Nautilus, and another way in Brasero? Why does the confirmation alert
> > for replacing an item with the same name have different text and buttons
> > in Brasero than it does in Nautilus? Why does Brasero refer to
> > non-existent "projects"? And so on.
>
> I think those would only qualify as inconsistencies if the user happens to
> expect a burning app to have the same interface as the file manager, which I
> think is not the case. I mean, we have a photo management app that does NOT
> look exactly like the file manager and a music management app that does NOT
> look exactly like the file manager, and there was never a problem with
> those. What makes you believe that it would be otherwise with CD burning?
> Why do you think NOT looking and behaving exactly like a file manager makes
> a burning app more complex to use?

The difference here is that burning a cd of files is basically the
same as managing files, as where as managing your music/photos is a
very different thing, with defined tasks, etc. For that matter, Fspot
and RB should make it trivial to burn photo/music/mp3 cds within their
interfaces, leaving NCB for burning random files.

Corey

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Re: Proposal: include Brasero by default

[David Prieto Ucha]

>
> Removing nautilus-cd-burner wouldn't fix the problem you describe:
> unnecessary UI inconsistency would still exist with Brasero vs. Nautilus
> itself. Why is creating a new folder done one way in Nautilus, and
> another way in Brasero? Why is removing files from a folder done way in
> Nautilus, and another way in Brasero? Why does the confirmation alert
> for replacing an item with the same name have different text and buttons
> in Brasero than it does in Nautilus? Why does Brasero refer to
> non-existent "projects"? And so on.


I think those would only qualify as inconsistencies if the user happens to
expect a burning app to have the same interface as the file manager, which I
think is not the case. I mean, we have a photo management app that does NOT
look exactly like the file manager and a music management app that does NOT
look exactly like the file manager, and there was never a problem with
those. What makes you believe that it would be otherwise with CD burning?
Why do you think NOT looking and behaving exactly like a file manager makes
a burning app more complex to use?

I'm eager to do some  testing with family and friends, BTW. Get them to burn
some stuff with Brasero, see if they have any problems or raise any of the
afforementioned issues.
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Re: Proposal: include Brasero by default

[Matthew Paul Thomas]

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Wouter Stomp wrote:
>...
> What is even more important is that ncb and brasero have a very, very
> similar user interface, but not exactly the same. This can be very
> confusing, as it feels like you are working with the same application
> but then e.g. suddenly the burn cd button has moved to a different
> location.
>...

Removing nautilus-cd-burner wouldn't fix the problem you describe:
unnecessary UI inconsistency would still exist with Brasero vs. Nautilus
itself. Why is creating a new folder done one way in Nautilus, and
another way in Brasero? Why is removing files from a folder done way in
Nautilus, and another way in Brasero? Why does the confirmation alert
for replacing an item with the same name have different text and buttons
in Brasero than it does in Nautilus? Why does Brasero refer to
non-existent "projects"? And so on.

All these differences people shouldn't have to learn. The ideal data CD
(and CD image) burning interface would be a strict superset of the
normal interface for the file manager. nautilus-cd-burner provides this
for many use cases, but it's missing basic features (like multi-session
burning) that Brasero provides.

So if you want to solve the duplication problem thoroughly, implement
the missing data CD features in nautilus-cd-burner (branching it if
necessary), and the missing audio CD features in Rhythmbox. :-)

Cheers
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Re: Proposal: include Brasero by default

[David Prieto]

> I would also like to argue for this: Brasero does everything n-c-b
> does, and more. One of the goals/specs set for hardy is reducing
> duplication within Ubuntu. If we would add brasero but keep n-c-b as
> well we will be increasing the amount of duplicate functionality.
> 
> What is even more important is that ncb and brasero have a very, very
> similar user interface, but not exactly the same. This can be very
> confusing, as it feels like you are working with the same application
> but then e.g. suddenly the burn cd button has moved to a different
> location.
> 
> Some concerns have been raised about brasero being a more advanced
> program with more options that you don't really need, but I think that
> is not the case. The programs, if you disable the sidebar in both,
> look almost identical. There is no options or preferences dialog in
> brasero. It does all things ncb does with equal ease, but at the same
> time it doesn't have the limitations that I mentioned in my first
> email.


That's exactly my point. In Bug #183130 Sebastien says that
"nautilus-cd-burner is easier to use for simple task", but how exactly
is that so? I have both open now and they look basically the same to me,
except brasero has a bar indicating how much free space I have left.
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Re: Proposal: include Brasero by default

[Wouter Stomp]

On Jan 15, 2008 10:00 AM, David Prieto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  Have you thought of the possibility (since Brasero does everything
> Nautilus-cd-burner does, and more) to have the places → cd creator menu item
> launch Brasero? It would be good not to overpopulate the menus, and having
> two different applications for a single task would confuse newcomers anyway.

I would also like to argue for this: Brasero does everything n-c-b
does, and more. One of the goals/specs set for hardy is reducing
duplication within Ubuntu. If we would add brasero but keep n-c-b as
well we will be increasing the amount of duplicate functionality.

What is even more important is that ncb and brasero have a very, very
similar user interface, but not exactly the same. This can be very
confusing, as it feels like you are working with the same application
but then e.g. suddenly the burn cd button has moved to a different
location.

Some concerns have been raised about brasero being a more advanced
program with more options that you don't really need, but I think that
is not the case. The programs, if you disable the sidebar in both,
look almost identical. There is no options or preferences dialog in
brasero. It does all things ncb does with equal ease, but at the same
time it doesn't have the limitations that I mentioned in my first
email.

Wouter.

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Re: Proposal: include Brasero by default

[David Prieto]

Hi Sebastien,


> That has already been discussed to the desktop team meeting some days
> ago and we decided to give it a try


Have you thought of the possibility (since Brasero does everything
Nautilus-cd-burner does, and more) to have the places → cd creator menu
item launch Brasero? It would be good not to overpopulate the menus, and
having two different applications for a single task would confuse
newcomers anyway.
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Re: Proposal: include Brasero by default

[Sebastien Bacher]

On lun, 2008-01-14 at 12:55 +0100, Wouter Stomp wrote:
> Hello all,
> 
> I originally posted this to ubuntu-devel-discuss, but I thought it
> might interest people on this list as well, so I decided to post my
> proposal here as well:

That has already been discussed to the desktop team meeting some days
ago and we decided to give it a try

Sebastien Bacher




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