Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ryan Cunningham]

> El sept 7, 2016, a las 4:17 AM, Simos Xenitellis  
> escribió:
> 
> On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:08 AM, Ryan Cunningham
>  wrote:
>> 
>> I have heard recently that Ubuntu has plans to cancel support for processors 
>> in the Intel 80386 family (and clones of the same). This is impacting me 
>> because I have a 32-bit Ubuntu machine (powered by an Intel 80586) which 
>> runs Ubuntu 16.10. This machine, a home laptop converted into a server, is 
>> only in the testing phase right now and probably will remain there for 6 
>> years at most. That is, until I obtain my bachelor's degree in 
>> elementary/high school education and my teaching certificate (I am going to 
>> use this machine for a school I will thereafter create).
> 
> Hi!
> First of all, regardless of all other decisions that be taken, you are
> fine with 16.04 at least until the year 2021.
> 
> I am not addressing your request, I am focusing on the practicalities
> of maintaining an old laptop as a server.
> I assume your laptop was made around the year 2000-2003 because the
> CPU is Intel 80586.

Sorry, I made a mistake: My computer’s CPU is actually an Intel 80686.

> [. . .]
> 
> You should get health metrics from this laptop in order to assess
> whether it can work reliably until 2021.
> Specifically,
> 
> A. Hard disk health status.
> 
> Install "smartnontools" (extract health data from inside the hard disk) with
> 
> sudo apt install smartmontools
> 
> Then, obtain the hard disk health status report by running
> 
> sudo smartctl -a /dev/hda
> 
> This command will read the internal attributes that are stored on the hard 
> disk.
> Among those attributes, the important ones are
> 1. Power_On_Hours (how many hours the hard disk was on, which
> coincides with the laptop being on).
> The "Raw Value" is the number of hours. The maximum I ever saw on a
> working disk was 1.
> I am really interested in seeing your value for this one.

“Smartctl open device: /dev/hda failed: No such device”

I’ve tried /dev/sda: By doing so, I get 6016 Power_On_Hours . . .

> 2. Reallocated_Sector_Ct (how many bad sectors have been reallocated
> to the buffer space).
> Here the Raw value should be 0.

. . . and a Reallocated_Sector_Ct of “0 (2000 0).”

> B. CPU Temperature
> 
> Install "lm-sensors" (read motherboard sensor values)
> 
> sudo apt install lm-sensors
> 
> Configure "lm-sensors"
> 
> sudo sensors-detect
> 
> (answer Yes to the autodetection).
> 
> Finally, read the current sensor values with
> 
> sensors
> 
> The temperatures when your laptop is idle, should be below 50C. If
> they are over 60C when idle, you have heating issues.

Mine is 38 deg. C right now.

> 
> Nowdays, instead of having an old laptop as a server, the common thing
> to do is get a Small Board Computer (SBC),
> like the Raspberry Pi. There are cheaper versions, and they start at
> around $15. You can get them to run Ubuntu just fine.
> 
> Hope this helps,
> Simos

Sincerely,

Ryan Cunningham


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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Xen]

Ralf Mardorf schreef op 18-09-2016 16:01:


with or without 32 bit support.


The whole point was that "with or without" is not good enough.

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

My main point simply is, that at the moment 32 bit still is supported
for a while by the traditional releases and in the future snaps might
replace the kind of releases we are used to, with or without 32 bit
support. However, Oli already explains why 32 bit for snaps still is
more important.

I do not prefer snaps over a traditional install, I only wanted to
point out that something is happening.

Regards,
Ralf

PS: Btw. on an Arch mailing list SSE is discussed, for either 32 bit
and 64 bit architecture. When SSE4 was mentioned for 64 bit
architecture by a subscriber, AMD 64 bit CPU users still mentioned to
expect getting SSE2 packages. Changes regarding architecture are made
by any distro. Arch unlikely drops 32 bit architecture, but perhaps
will switch from SSE to SSE2 for 32 bit.

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Xen]

Oliver Grawert schreef op 18-09-2016 15:09:

hi,
On So, 2016-09-18 at 14:14 +0200, Xen wrote:

 
That won't install Ubuntu onto a 32-bit system, now will it.


it will, and snappy images will actually be staying around for 32bit
since they target embedded, where you even still see a lot new 32bit
only devices being produced and where memory size of the binaries can
be essential (32bit ones being smaller on disk and consuming less ram)

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-snappy/xenial/current/ ...


So what would that imply

Do I need a running system to unpack e.g. ubuntu-core-16-i386.img.xz 
onto a root filesystem and then chroot and install grub?


Is there going to be an installer experience as well? But that would 
require 32-bit (Ubiquity) ISOs.




on 64bit desktops 32bit snaps can very well run... by design a snap
ships its needed libs along (pretty much like a static build) and all
amd64 based systems providing snap support are able to execute the
32bit snaps (the snap runtime environment on amd64 ships the 32bit libc
by default to guarantee that).


I think it's not bad that Linux goes away from the "library network" 
disaster that we've had for so long.


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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Oliver Grawert]

hi,
On So, 2016-09-18 at 14:14 +0200, Xen wrote:
> 
> That won't install Ubuntu onto a 32-bit system, now will it.

it will, and snappy images will actually be staying around for 32bit
since they target embedded, where you even still see a lot new 32bit
only devices being produced and where memory size of the binaries can
be essential (32bit ones being smaller on disk and consuming less ram)

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-snappy/xenial/current/ ...

> 
> Even if a decision is made (ever) to transition all 32-bit packages
> to a 
> snaps system so that ordinary 64-bit people can still use them that
> will 
> probably be rife with problems (will non-snap 32-bit apps be able to
> use 
> snap 32-bit libraries?) 

on 64bit desktops 32bit snaps can very well run... by design a snap
ships its needed libs along (pretty much like a static build) and all
amd64 based systems providing snap support are able to execute the
32bit snaps (the snap runtime environment on amd64 ships the 32bit libc
by default to guarantee that).

i think what ralf refers to in his other bits is rather the point that
you can use snaps on all distros (snappy exists for all of them,
despite not being provided by default on most), but this is not
actually relevant for this thread ...

ciao
oli

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Xen]

Ralf Mardorf schreef op 18-09-2016 7:19:


Perhaps the data is already there, but not in the way you wish. Maybe
it's a complete step into another direction. It might be just the first
step, of other steps, that maybe will follow one after the other.


I'm not sure what you are on, or on about...

I am sure you are talking about packaging i386-32-bit apps as "snaps"?


A super wild ass guess http://snapcraft.io/ . Since you like data, at
least by Arch it never ever will be adapted. Mentioning Arch, just
because it's available by the Arch user repository and got a single
vote there, is confronted with alternatives to snapcraft, that are much
more accepted outside of the Ubuntu community. Let alone that for
Archers the complete approach is less interesting at all. Following
Arch mailing lists, I know what I'm talking about. OTOH if you follow
https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/snapcraft you would notice
that it's a pet issue of Mark Shuttleworth. Note, I do _not_ claim that
there are plans to completely switch to the snap approach, I just want
to point out, that in the back-room there possibly are thoughts about
completely different approaches.


That won't install Ubuntu onto a 32-bit system, now will it.

Even if a decision is made (ever) to transition all 32-bit packages to a 
snaps system so that ordinary 64-bit people can still use them that will 
probably be rife with problems (will non-snap 32-bit apps be able to use 
snap 32-bit libraries?) that doesn't mean it would be the correct 
approach, nor that it would be a sane approach to lessen the development 
or packaging burden, particularly not of the requirement to test ISOs? 
Well from a certain point of view if you can push everything into a 
snaps system


But at the same time most people probably don't want it, and

Where is the data you mention? You vagely hint at its existence. But 
unless you and I both know it, any discussion about it will be void, 
because you are still making assumptions here and allusions.


You allude that the "data exists" but that it would point in the 
direction of providing snaps.


Oh, do you know? Or is that just your wild guess based on infinite faith 
in the wisdom of those who make the decisions.


There is not a single number in your post. Not even the number 32.

Just saying that wild allusions to the existence of never-seen data do 
not cut the mark here, not even the Mark Shuttleworth mark ;-).


And it gives me an even stronger impression, if you mention that here in 
such a way, that the powers that be ... err the people that make the 
decisions do not really want other people to have the same kind of data?


You can fight about non-existent data all you want but unless you have 
some you won't make a dent in a pack of butter and any statement anyone 
can make, either pro or against, will be largely ineffective.


They remain wild guesses and I maintain that if the will had been there 
(or the honesty and fairness, perhaps) with sufficient transparency 
people could have seen that really according to the numbers and 
solutions and creative solutions available, providing 32-bit ISOs (not 
necessarily talking about packages here) would remain a low-cost 
proposition.


This eagerness to dump lesser-used alternatives is, I believe, not based 
on facts.


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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Xen]

Thierry Andriamirado schreef op 12-09-2016 19:54:


I understand that the Ubuntu developers must choose.
What is important now is to know that doing advocacy for Linux in
developing countries  must integrate this 2021 deadline.


Late to the ball, but...

I think that if you really did the calcuations you would find that the 
effort or resources required to support 32-bit i386 compared to or 
relative to or as a part of the total effort required to ship ISOs 
regardless, is minimal.


In these discussions, almost never numbers are actually named.

If shipping a distribution of Ubuntu on ISO takes 1000 man hours (units, 
so to speak) and the i386-32-bit takes 10 of that, is that significant? 
It is never going to be 500. We can never agree on anything if we don't 
know the numbers, and people like to exaggerate what they don't know if 
they are in favour (of discontinuing) but never use actual data on the 
subject.


So what is this huge effort required to continue i386-32-bit images?

It's probably only going to come down to testing, isn't it? But why, 
actually, should testing i386 take so much time if amd64 has already 
been tested? Differences between the ISOs will be absolutely minimal 
apart from all the i386 packages, that are needed to be kept supported 
anyway?


If the kernel is no longer producing an image that will run on i386-32 
bit, fair point. From the point of view of security updates, maybe 
difficult. Who takes the burden for that. But that is Linux-wide, in a 
sense. If people would get together (and I am sure they do) it is not 
hard to keep supporting that community-wide.


So what are we actually talking about here? Only ISO-testing, really?

How much effort does it require to release a i386-32-bit specific 
version, compared to the full total?


In other words, what are the /marginal costs/, in percentage?

I am reminded of many companies here wanting to do away with paper mail. 
They voice concerns about the environment and we all know or could see 
that the impact of a few thin bank transaction sheets once a month is 
going to be completely insignificant on the grand scheme of things. 
Companies advise you not to print their documents because it would have 
such a big impact on the environment. And it is ludicrous. Any 
functioning organisation needs paper or something of the kind. Trying to 
cut down on the minimal amount you use just to send email through an 
actual mailbox (ie., paper mail) in order to "save the environment" is 
just a scam for being able to cut down on costs a little bit and 
disenfranchise people in the mean time who now no longer have paper 
copies unless they print them themselves -- so where is the cost savings 
there? Paper copies are absolutely required for many "home" 
administrations and paper is more reliable than having digital copies 
lying somewhere around. Aside from these concerns, it is pretty clear 
the advantages of "digital" are getting exaggerated while the 
disadvantages are hardly ever named, particularly by those who want to 
cut back on costs and jobs.


I can grab a copy from my local administration in seconds, if I did that 
digitally online, it might take minutes, particularly if I have to use a 
password reset form for it ;-). Then, if I want to use it for most 
purposes, I need to print it. Now I suddenly require the ownership of a 
functioning printer that will work (in my case) in Linux.


Living light is nice, but at this point central administration and 
online access of it hardly has any advantage for me apart from being 
able to access it anywhere.


And it's not that there are no advantages, it is just that the 
disadvantages are never named.


It is unfair and deceitful and they are just trying to save money and 
lose employees, they are not really doing it for you.


Now not saying that the same has to be true here (particularly the 
losing of employees ;-)), but


I just think it is important to know what actual numbers we are talking 
about here before anyone can make a reasonable assessment, because many 
discussions are held on "hear say" data that is never quantified, but 
only qualified by those who want to get rid of it as "too much".


And my feeling is simply that if we actually knew the numbers, we would 
find that:


- i386-32-bit doesn't take more than 20% of resources of the total, if 
at all

- most of it probably goes into testing
- you could choose to stage testing of 32-bit after 64-bit has been 
completed, or something similar


- you could choose to release 32-bit at a later release date, so it only 
needs to test particular differences for 32-bit, which would be 
absolutely minimal if the issues of 64-bit have been worked out.


- kernel work for 32-bit could be shared with other distro's, and I 
don't know the Debian road map for this.


So I think that when it comes down to it the real costs are not that 
great if you play it well and if there are some problems to be solved, 
you should just go 

Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Simos Xenitellis]

On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:54 PM, Thierry Andriamirado
 wrote:
>
>
> Le 11 septembre 2016 21:43:03 UTC+03:00, Ralf Mardorf 
>  a écrit :
>
>>That's entirely true. For users who don't need the user-friendliness
>>provided by Ubuntu there are anyway better distros available to "tune"
>>weak computers more easily. Anyway, for doing this much knowledge is
>>required. The user-friendliness of Ubuntu has got several weak points,
>
> I thought Ubuntu was a good Linux distro and I was happy that "everybody" 
> could use it (desktop, education..)
> But if I understand what is happening, do we have to stop pushing Ubuntu to 
> users owning old hardwares, and go back to Debian as in the good old day? 5 
> years remaining until 2021, and we always hope to use newly acquired 
> equipment over 5 years.
>

I did not see a link to a definite discussion that 686 ("i386") will
not be supported any more in future versions.
Once it becomes official, I would consider to start worrying.
For now, there is guaranteed support up to the next five years and it
would be premature to act.

Simos

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Thierry Andriamirado]

Le 11 septembre 2016 21:43:03 UTC+03:00, Ralf Mardorf 
 a écrit :

>That's entirely true. For users who don't need the user-friendliness
>provided by Ubuntu there are anyway better distros available to "tune"
>weak computers more easily. Anyway, for doing this much knowledge is
>required. The user-friendliness of Ubuntu has got several weak points,

I thought Ubuntu was a good Linux distro and I was happy that "everybody" could 
use it (desktop, education..)
But if I understand what is happening, do we have to stop pushing Ubuntu to 
users owning old hardwares, and go back to Debian as in the good old day? 5 
years remaining until 2021, and we always hope to use newly acquired equipment 
over 5 years.

>but its importance shouldn't be underestimated, especially, but not
>only, for less educated people. The distro's name "Ubuntu" wasn't
>chosen
>randomly. This word has got a meaning.

This word, the name Ubuntu, was one of the reasons I downloaded Ubuntu (maybe) 
10 years ago. Eventually, it replaced my Debian boxes one by one, and even a 
RedHat one and a Mandriva one ;)
The name and the fact that its creator was South African, has created in me a 
lot of hope. Naively, I must say ;)

>During this thread somebody mentioned computers somewhere in the bush.

Me.

>The users of those computers had no chance to participate on the
>survey.
>
>So IMHO the question is a trade-off. The Ubuntu maintainers could
>support both 64 bit and 32 bit support in the past and they are still
>doing it. By keeping the boats and computers in the bush in mind, is
>continuing to drag around this anchor in the future still worth the
>effort?
>
>I had more tendencies to say "no" before this discussion started.

I understand that the Ubuntu developers must choose.
What is important now is to know that doing advocacy for Linux in developing 
countries  must integrate this 2021 deadline.

>During
>this discussion my opinion tends more and more to think that 32 bit
>support by Ubuntu still is very important. Taking no account that PAE

This is my opinion too.
Now, if we can not, well.. we can not! ;)
We'll see.

>What is the borderline requirement for the Ubuntu user target group,
>resp. who is this target group?

That is now the question. As I have now to adapt my Linux distros advocacies 
and recommendations.

Regards,
Thierry


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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Tom H]

On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 1:43 PM, John Moser  wrote:
> On Sun, 2016-09-11 at 12:52 -0400, Tom H wrote:
>>
>> I've only read a quarter (or less) of the posts in this thread so I
>> don't know how it went from "32-bit ISOs are being deprecated" to
>> social and economic pseudo-commentary (I can make an educated guess!)
>> but do you really think that this is the best use of
>> ubuntu-devel-discuss@?
>
> As much as I enjoy discussing economics, it's really hard to separate
> this from political contexts.

That's why it was sometimes called political economy.

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Tom H]

On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 1:30 PM, Ralf Mardorf
 wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 12:52:14 -0400, Tom H wrote:
>>
>> do you really think that this is the best use of ubuntu-devel-discuss@?
>
> Does somebody need 32 bit support?
>
> Neither it was me who opened this thread, nor do I need 32 bit support
> myself. There were just flimsy excuses for dropping 32 bit support,
> resp. how to still get 32 bit packages without an ISO and I argue
> against those contradictions. It wasn't even me who started this
> discussion about poor regions on this planet.
>
> However, if we care about poor regions on this planet, then such a
> discussion is required.

Simply because you care about certain regions of the world doesn't
mean that Ubuntu does or should.

Ubuntu has limited resources. Its developers have decided that their
time and skills and Ubuntu's hardware and software assets are better
used on something other than 32-bit ISOs.

As an Ubuntu user, I applaud this decision because it means,
theoretically, that means that the flavor that I'm using will see more
TLC. We're back to selfishness :)

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Oliver Grawert]

hi,
Am Sonntag, den 11.09.2016, 19:30 +0200 schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 12:52:14 -0400, Tom H wrote:
> > 
> > do you really think that this is the best use of ubuntu-devel-
> > discuss@?
> Does somebody need 32 bit support?
> 
yes ... as i said in my opening mail, people using proprietary software
that only runs in 32bit multiarch (think steam, i don't think there is
actually 64bit client). 

and someone else asked if there are still 32bit boards in production
... yes they are .. in the embedded world they are even very prominent
and with snappy ubuntu offers an install image for such devices.

snappy as well as multiarch setups base on deb packages from the
archive. so 32bit *packages* will not go away any time soon, at least
for the above package-sets.

also ripping out 32bit builds from debian-installer would be some
effort vs. just having it build the netinst and mini.iso 32bit binaries
along with the rest, so i guess there will even be an installer
(despite not officially supported)

i doubt though that we will have supported ubuntu-desktop package sets
or fully fledged isos for 32bit in the future.

ciao
oli

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Nils Kassube]

Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> My apologies, I wanted to say that a kernel without PAE enabled was
> dropped. Actually I don't know if any CPU usable with the supported 32
> bit packages, that are i585 or whatever else, are unable to handle
> PAE. I'm to lazy to google this ;).

There is the AMD Geode LX800 used in Alix machines (500 MHz / 256 MB 
RAM). If you would call them "usable" is up to you, but for me they are 
useful for recording DVB-T. As there is no PAE support in 14.04, I have 
to build my own kernel, but I can live with that. :)


Nils


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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 20:43:03 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>Taking no account that PAE was dropped a while back

My apologies, I wanted to say that a kernel without PAE enabled was
dropped. Actually I don't know if any CPU usable with the supported 32
bit packages, that are i585 or whatever else, are unable to handle PAE.
I'm to lazy to google this ;).

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 13:43:32 -0400, John Moser wrote:
>There is no use dragging around a boat anchor just in case you meet
>someone who has a boat.  Someone else is already in the business of
>making and selling boat anchors.

That's entirely true. For users who don't need the user-friendliness
provided by Ubuntu there are anyway better distros available to "tune"
weak computers more easily. Anyway, for doing this much knowledge is
required. The user-friendliness of Ubuntu has got several weak points,
but its importance shouldn't be underestimated, especially, but not
only, for less educated people. The distro's name "Ubuntu" wasn't chosen
randomly. This word has got a meaning.

Apart from our different world views there still remains the trade-off.

Fair enough, there was a survey on many, if not all Ubuntu related
mailing lists about the need of 32 bit support. I forwarded this survey
to Ubuntu Studio, but didn't participate myself, since my opinion
regarding 32 bit support is ambivalent.

During this thread somebody mentioned computers somewhere in the bush.
The users of those computers had no chance to participate on the survey.

So IMHO the question is a trade-off. The Ubuntu maintainers could
support both 64 bit and 32 bit support in the past and they are still
doing it. By keeping the boats and computers in the bush in mind, is
continuing to drag around this anchor in the future still worth the
effort?

I had more tendencies to say "no" before this discussion started. During
this discussion my opinion tends more and more to think that 32 bit
support by Ubuntu still is very important. Taking no account that PAE
was dropped a while back, it starts with dropping a still wide used
computer architecture and easily could end in dropping CPU
compatibility even for 64 bit hardware. I know proprietary software for
Linux that already requires SSE3. Regarding my world view my 64 bit CPU
isn't old, but it only provides SSE2.

What is the borderline requirement for the Ubuntu user target group,
resp. who is this target group?

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[John Moser]

On Sun, 2016-09-11 at 12:52 -0400, Tom H wrote:
> On Sun, Sep 11, 2016, Ralf Mardorf 
> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > You are quoting me out of context. The context is that the poor
> > can't
> > donate new computers and they can't pay for infrastructure, such as
> > internet access for everyone. _BUT_ rich people could, they are
> > just
> > not interested in doing it, they are greedy.
> You mean selfish. So what? We all are!
> 
> I've only read a quarter (or less) of the posts in this thread so I
> don't know how it went from "32-bit ISOs are being deprecated" to
> social and economic pseudo-commentary (I can make an educated guess!)
> but do you really think that this is the best use of
> ubuntu-devel-discuss@?
> 

As much as I enjoy discussing economics, it's really hard to separate
this from political contexts.

The major point of contention is whether Ubuntu targets old systems and
third-world e-reuse programs.  I have said an organization specifically
targeting those uses and managing collection, software provision, and
distribution would be more-efficient (cheaper) and more-effective
(better results) than tacking on so-called "support" for an imaginary,
ill-defined, and minority use case to a general-purpose effort.

There is no use dragging around a boat anchor just in case you meet
someone who has a boat.  Someone else is already in the business of
making and selling boat anchors.

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 12:52:14 -0400, Tom H wrote:
>do you really think that this is the best use of ubuntu-devel-discuss@?

Does somebody need 32 bit support?

Neither it was me who opened this thread, nor do I need 32 bit support
myself. There were just flimsy excuses for dropping 32 bit support,
resp. how to still get 32 bit packages without an ISO and I argue
against those contradictions. It wasn't even me who started this
discussion about poor regions on this planet.

However, if we care about poor regions on this planet, then such a
discussion is required.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: [OT] Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 12:27:20 -0400, John Moser wrote:
>YES THEY NEED TECHNOLOGICAL PROGRESS!

I don't argue against this. There's nothing wrong with technological
progress per se. To exercise moderation is required regarding
consuming by the rich. Btw. Africa is a topic for it's own. Nestlé,
Monsanto, Wall Street, Weapons from all Western nations, Religions, all
that pseudo-progress brings about evil to Africa and absolutely nothing
good.

But then again, should they use oldish computers, while all the
operating systems are made for new computers? Either continue operating
systems to support old computers and/or donate new computers. This is
on-topic.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Tom H]

On Sun, Sep 11, 2016, Ralf Mardorf  wrote:
>
> You are quoting me out of context. The context is that the poor can't
> donate new computers and they can't pay for infrastructure, such as
> internet access for everyone. _BUT_ rich people could, they are just
> not interested in doing it, they are greedy.

You mean selfish. So what? We all are!

I've only read a quarter (or less) of the posts in this thread so I
don't know how it went from "32-bit ISOs are being deprecated" to
social and economic pseudo-commentary (I can make an educated guess!)
but do you really think that this is the best use of
ubuntu-devel-discuss@?

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[OT] Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[John Moser]

On Sun, 2016-09-11 at 17:24 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 15:58:44 +0300, Thierry Andriamirado wrote:
> > 
> > Le 10 septembre 2016 20:13:47 UTC+03:00, Ralf Mardorf
> >  a écrit :
> >  
> > > 
> > > It's not the task of the poor to help the poor.
> > Of course IT IS! ;)
> > I'm not so poor compared to many malagasy people, but being in a
> > poor
> > country, I should be one of the first to raise their hands to speak
> > for these "poors" who still use old hardwares. With the help of
> > those
> > in rich countries. ;)  
> You are quoting me out of context. The context is that the poor can't
> donate new computers and they can't pay for infrastructure, such as
> internet access for everyone. _BUT_ rich people could, they are just
> not interested in doing it, they are greedy.

Stop that.

Everybody loves to say "X has less and Y has more, Y is greedy!"  This
has lead to enormous political problems preventing any effective aid to
the economically disadvantaged.

To illustrate in a somewhat off-topic direction:  the United States can
implement the modern concept of a Universal Basic Income (UBI) as a
Universal Social Security (USS) for $1 trillion lower burden on the
taxpayer, without raising taxes on the rich.  This can easily end
homelessness and hunger across the nation; create an enormous demand
for jobs (which eventually requires shorter working hours to
counterbalance); and remediate an incredibly faulty welfare system that
would take too long to discuss here.

And yes, it really is a trillion dollars:  https://bluecollarlunch.word
press.com/2016/07/22/a-basic-income-is-a-trillion-dollars-cheaper/

Most UBI proponents oppose this because IT DOESN'T TAX THE RICH MORE.
 Many people also get angry because the income bump "doesn't make
businesses pay"--your effective "minimum wage" goes up, but the evil,
greedy business doesn't have to pay it, so this is wrong.

In other words:  people are less-interested in helping the poor and
more interested in attacking people or classes of people whom they
dislike.

People attacked the American Red Cross WHILE THEY WERE STOPPING A
CHOLERA EPIDEMIC IN HAITI, going so far as to complain that ARC hired
contractors who then made a profit--never mind that they actually got
food, water, sanitization, vaccination, government disaster response
programs for future crises, and temporary shelter distributed to people
who would be dead by now; there's evil rich people to burn, and nobody
really cares about dirty poor people on some barely-developed island
somewhere.

Do you have any concept of how many people suffer and die every year
because everyone is focused on how to pry money away from businesses
and high-income individuals instead of how to effectively address
societal problems by organized effort or public policy?



That doesn't even go into the economic considerations.  People still
think money is wealth; but money is backed by the productive output of
a population.  Want to see how it really works?

In America, we outsource a lot.  We import labor and goods (ultimately
labor).  Even when we bring things from China, someone has to ship it,
someone has to stock it, someone has to retail it.  There's a huge
amount of labor just in moving and selling goods.

Americans have income, from jobs.  When goods and services are
purchased, that money is business revenue.  Revenue goes to individuals
(wages), other businesses (overhead), and profits.  Put the wages and
profits together, and you have income.  All of the income in America is
equivalent to all of the business productive output; import goods are
bought and thus the money goes out of the country, while those goods
are sold locally and the price then divided between wages and business
profits, thus reflecting the production of retail and shipping
services.  IT services and made-in-America things (e.g. food?) are of
course tangibly made here.

The ability to keep importing goods, of course, predicates on our
ability to produce more goods.  America does trade away a lot of grain,
IT services, and electronics goods (iPhones made in China by the
specifications of Apple; China gets its cut, but so does the US).

Take a step back and look at all the money moving around.

Every dollar spent represents somethings that was made, shipped, and
sold.  If we produce half as much but still employed as many people for
the same yearly wage, everything would cost twice as much--suddenly
we're making 5,000 instead of 10,000, but we're still paying Charlie
$40,000/year, and have to divvy his salary up into the price of each of
these.  That means Charlie ultimately can only buy half as much.

So you look at these poor countries and tell me what they're missing.

The answer isn't money, computers, or a modern welfare system to make
their rich people pay for their poor people.

The answer is technology.

Man learned to sharpen a pointy stick and spend less time hunting.  He
learned to plant 

Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sun, 11 Sep 2016 15:58:44 +0300, Thierry Andriamirado wrote:
>Le 10 septembre 2016 20:13:47 UTC+03:00, Ralf Mardorf
> a écrit :
>  
>>It's not the task of the poor to help the poor.
>
>Of course IT IS! ;)
>I'm not so poor compared to many malagasy people, but being in a poor
>country, I should be one of the first to raise their hands to speak
>for these "poors" who still use old hardwares. With the help of those
>in rich countries. ;)  

You are quoting me out of context. The context is that the poor can't
donate new computers and they can't pay for infrastructure, such as
internet access for everyone. _BUT_ rich people could, they are just
not interested in doing it, they are greedy.

Without the context of a computer mailing list, sure, there are more
important issues. Not only computer usable for illiterates. Freedom,
access to clean water, clothes etc.. People should fight for their human
rights. However, in some countries they are even limited in fighting
for their rights, sometimes due to not having the money, nor the
education to do this. In my country poor people could sue
administrative bodies for free and even the poorest citizens at least
have the required minimum of education to do so. In some other
countries people have to struggle to survive. They have nothing that
allows them to fight for their rights.

I guess this is really off-topic.

Ubuntu is related to computers, so the context in regards to the Ubuntu
philosophy at least should be about the right way to provide world wide
computers and internet access. This already includes some real human
rights, such as the right to get a little bit of education, to at least
use a computer based on pictogram instead of written words. Btw. I
doubt that there are a lot of unused Braille devices available people
like to donate. Serious donations are not second hand things, the owner
don't want to use anymore. Sure, poor people only can donate those
things they don't need anymore, hence it's the task of the rich. Even
in my country the rich get richer in hundreds of percent within the
last decades, while the poor get poorer and poorer and even those who
have got jobs, get not that much percent more reward, to compensate
rising prices.

Btw. I'm from Germany one of the richest nations, but de facto even we
have got real poverty. I worked for children who have nothing to eat,
in Germany, we just have some super rich people, but the same kind of
poverty as some other countries else. This is due to the unwillingness
to really change something.

That's why I mentioned this:

Ralf:
>Oli:  
>> you know that our society isn't like what you dream of here
>
>"I Have a Dream" - Martin Luther King
>
>We can't go on as we did for decades.  

We make progress regarding computers. The computer you buy today is
already old next week. We don't need this kind of progress. What we
need is social progress.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Simos Xenitellis]

On Fri, Sep 9, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Alexandre Strube  wrote:
> Are you suggesting a full port to Raspberry Pi instead?
>

The RPi II is one option, and it is not the most affordable one.
There are also the Pine64 and the OrangePi developer boards which are
way cheaper.
Their support for the mainline kernel may not be there yet, however
there is work being done.

For such devices, you can use Ubuntu Core (snappy),
https://developer.ubuntu.com/en/snappy/start/
Ubuntu Core works already for the RPi 2.

Regarding the cost of such devices, it can be quite low. For example,
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/1553371
For the import duty and taxes, one can check at
http://www.dutycalculator.com/country-guides/Import-duty-taxes-when-importing-into-Brazil/
(for Brazil).

Please note that those second-hand PCs that make it to Africa, are
meant to be used and then at the end of their life, to be properly
recycled.
The proper recycle costs a lot of money, and in most cases it does not
happen and the PCs end up in a landfill.
Many old computers from Europe end up in Africa to be used as
second-hand, however for Europe it is just a cheap way to avoid paying
for the proper recycling within Europe.

Simos

> 2016-09-09 3:00 GMT+02:00 Simos Xenitellis :
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Thierry Andriamirado
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Le 8 septembre 2016 01:35:05 UTC+03:00, John Moser
>> >  a écrit :
>> >>
>> >>> There are countless very old computers running Ubuntu, in Developing
>> >>> Countries.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>It's not my fault nobody counted.
>> >
>> > It's nobody's fault: many of those Ubuntu boxes are used in villages in
>> > the bush, and are not even connected to the Internet. Updated from time to
>> > time via CD-Rom..
>> >
>>
>> As far as I know, many of the second-hand old PCs that make it to the
>> developing world, are old computers from companies and universities in
>> Europe.
>> A proper disposal in the EU costs money, so they donate them to
>> intermediaries (so no cost for the companies) that send them to
>> developing countries.
>> Those that receive them, end up paying quite some money (50-100€?),
>> which is good profit to the intermediaries.
>>
>> Considering that at least until 2021 we will be fine regarding 32-bit
>> support,
>> I think it would be good to gradually get people to switch to
>> small-board computers.
>> These are nowdays quite cheap, and you can get a quad-core SBC with
>> 2GB RAM for under 30€.
>>
>> Simos
>>
>> --
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>
>
>
>
> --
> []
> Alexandre Strube
> su...@ubuntu.com

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Thierry Andriamirado]

Le 10 septembre 2016 20:13:47 UTC+03:00, Ralf Mardorf 
 a écrit :

>It's not the task of the poor to help the poor.

Of course IT IS! ;)
I'm not so poor compared to many malagasy people, but being in a poor country, 
I should be one of the first to raise their hands to speak for these "poors" 
who still use old hardwares.
With the help of those in rich countries. ;)

>need to buy some very exclusive and expensive hardware for one domain, 
>
>pro-audio. My professional sound card does cost more than my computer,

Komplete Audio 6 FTW! ;)
Sorry for the off-topic.

Thierry

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Thierry Andriamirado]

Le 10 septembre 2016 13:38:17 UTC+03:00, Oliver Grawert 

>when i was still LTSP and edubuntu upstream i worked very closely with
>[1], they actually know what they are doing and make sure to only ship
>usable bits ... they ship it to places where people live that would
>never be able to achieve a computer at all ... to places where there is
>partially not even power and where internet access means that once a
>week a guy with a moped comes by with a usb stick that proxies your
>mails and websites you want to read. following your logic would mean

That is the use case I'm talking about. Thank you.

>recycling is a matter of "done right", just saying "the whole approach
>is wrong" is very short sighted...

I actually understand what you are both saying.
Fact is that many ONGs (and private initiatives) make donations. Some are 
recycled hardware, some are new ones. I for myself can't tell how many very old 
hardware are donated per year. I just know they continue to be distributed for 
sure.
And as they can't continue to use modern windows, nor XP, this is a "very good" 
opportunity to install Ubuntu or Debian on them.

When I was IT Director in the Deputy Prime Ministry here in Madagascar 10 years 
ago, we have created an opened access room filled with the ministry's old 
computers. All running Linux. It was an opportunity not only to show that Linux 
was "usable", but also to benefit from the old hardware, in a department (800 
employees) that sorely needed computers.

We must do with our resources. But we can do that ONLY if Linux distribs 
continue to work on what we own.

Actually I'm not sure that these old computers will disappear by 2021. If so, I 
hope we'll still be able to compile Debian's i386.

Regards,
Thierry



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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Brendan Perrine]

On Wed, 07 Sep 2016 11:11:50 +0200
Oliver Grawert  wrote:

> archive will still persist for quite some time, there is to much
 Well as I think this thread has views as an iso tester for lubuntu sometimes 
LTS point releases feel some of the most crunched for times in testing. If the 
too many iso images need to be tested. I don't know how many downloads there 
are for 32 bit point releases. However in areas with no internet having all the 
SRU on installs would be nice. but since I don't know of new 32 bit hardware  
is made it won't be to support new hardware. I don't know the download 
statistics here and it could be that lots of people with older machines put LTS 
on them and sometimes even the point release to get all updates which if you 
could download once on slow internet sounds really nice. 
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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

Hi Oli :)

let us focus on the things we have in common. IMO you and I do a good job  
in helping users at Ubuntu users mailing list :).
Regarding how often somebody should or should not replace hardware we have  
different points of view.


On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 13:57:14 +0200, Oliver Grawert  wrote:

On Sa, 2016-09-10 at 13:13 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 12:38:17 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote:
>It is good to recycle, but it's not good the way it is done now, for
still usable gear and by exploiting the poor.


no, it is a matter how and through which organisation you recycle ...
"the way it is done now" totally depends on the way people do their
donation, give your old HW to people that can actually do something
good with it and who will get it in the right hands and you voted with
your feet, very simple.


Indeed it's not wrong in general to give away old hardware.


or you are a gamer that only buys a new graphics card every three years
instead of buying a new console every year ...


I already pointed out that there are exceptional domains, that unlikely  
affect most users.



you know that our society isn't like what you dream of here


"I Have a Dream" - Martin Luther King

We can't go on as we did for decades.


if you have three jobs to earn just enough to pay your rent, fill your
fridge and get your kids dressed, where would the money come from to
give them a computer ? are you saying it is better for them to not have
one at all than to re-use older hardware ?


It's not the task of the poor to help the poor.


how much first hand knowledge of recycling do *you* actually have
beyond having read that news article/seen that documentary ? how many
people did you *meet* that could not afford a computer at all and were
overly happy to be able to build their own and take it home ...


I'm using hardware from bulk dump a much myself and I'm using computers as  
long as possible. Fortunately I can repair gear myself. However, even I  
need to buy some very exclusive and expensive hardware for one domain,  
pro-audio. My professional sound card does cost more than my computer, but  
I started with second hand pro-sumer audio gear that was very cheap and  
nearly as good as the pro device.



yes, there are drawbacks in recycling if you go down to the level of
having people sitting on a trash dump dissolving PCBs with poisonous
liquids etc ... if you don't like that, simply don't do it ... go the
other route, support the recycling organisations that do something with
the hardware ...


+1


how about we stop this thread here, it isn't really ubuntu related any
more ... both our points of view are clear and apparently i cant
convince you of mine and i wont agree with yours, so lets just move on
with life before we go more off topic ...


+1

Anyway, I like to give feedback too others, not only to you ;).

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 12:38:17 +0200, Oliver Grawert wrote:
>hi,
>Am Samstag, den 10.09.2016, 12:05 +0200 schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
>
>> As already pointed out, recycling or refurbishing for the poor
>> already
>> is the wrong approach, only using computers for a longer period of
>> time
>> and repairing components of computers, instead of replacing them
>> completely solves environmental and social problems. The poot should
>> use the same computers as the rich. Recycling does not mean that it
>> doesn't cause e-waste and waste by idiotic traffic there and back to
>> foreign country's slums and that workers aren't exploited. Just rare
>> earth elements are recycled and much e-waste remains. The complete
>> approach is wrong.  
>
>so you think it is better to not recyle and re-use the materials that
>were retrieved at the cost of the workers health but instead use them
>longer and buy then new stuff that was again retrieved at the cost of
>worker lives ? that's a strange statement.

It is good to recycle, but it's not good the way it is done now, for
still usable gear and by exploiting the poor.

>if they want computers in a country that does not produce them itself
>there will be transport costs and the related pollution in either case.
>the trick here is to sort out the crap *before* you cause transport
>costs and pollution, to actually get usable stuff to the people ...

Simply donate new computers instead of giving them your old, as an
excuse to buy a new one for yourself. They then need to do the same as
you should do, use those computers as long as possible.

>when i was still LTSP and edubuntu upstream i worked very closely with
>[1], they actually know what they are doing and make sure to only ship
>usable bits ... they ship it to places where people live that would
>never be able to achieve a computer at all ...

But why donating old instead of new computers? Greed?

>to places where there is
>partially not even power and where internet access means that once a
>week a guy with a moped comes by with a usb stick that proxies your
>mails and websites you want to read. following your logic would mean
>that all these people would never get access to wider information and
>education...

No, in a social, human world, we don't donate crap, we don't help the
rich, we help the poor.

>if you look at the US there are people that can hardly afford a living.
>yet [2] will enable the kids of such families to 
>a) actually learn how a computer works and 
>b) build their own one in courses to take home with them ... 
>again these are people that wouldn't have had access to a computer at
>all ...

Why wouldn't the have access to computers at all. The only way in you
mind is donating the computers that other people do not want to use?

>recycling is a matter of "done right", just saying "the whole approach
>is wrong" is very short sighted...

Inform yourself about how recycling is done and when recycling makes
really sense.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Oliver Grawert]

hi,
Am Samstag, den 10.09.2016, 12:05 +0200 schrieb Ralf Mardorf:

> As already pointed out, recycling or refurbishing for the poor
> already
> is the wrong approach, only using computers for a longer period of
> time
> and repairing components of computers, instead of replacing them
> completely solves environmental and social problems. The poot should
> use the same computers as the rich. Recycling does not mean that it
> doesn't cause e-waste and waste by idiotic traffic there and back to
> foreign country's slums and that workers aren't exploited. Just rare
> earth elements are recycled and much e-waste remains. The complete
> approach is wrong.

so you think it is better to not recyle and re-use the materials that
were retrieved at the cost of the workers health but instead use them
longer and buy then new stuff that was again retrieved at the cost of
worker lives ? that's a strange statement.

if they want computers in a country that does not produce them itself
there will be transport costs and the related pollution in either case.
the trick here is to sort out the crap *before* you cause transport
costs and pollution, to actually get usable stuff to the people ...

when i was still LTSP and edubuntu upstream i worked very closely with
[1], they actually know what they are doing and make sure to only ship
usable bits ... they ship it to places where people live that would
never be able to achieve a computer at all ... to places where there is
partially not even power and where internet access means that once a
week a guy with a moped comes by with a usb stick that proxies your
mails and websites you want to read. following your logic would mean
that all these people would never get access to wider information and
education...

if you look at the US there are people that can hardly afford a living.
yet [2] will enable the kids of such families to 
a) actually learn how a computer works and 
b) build their own one in courses to take home with them ... 
again these are people that wouldn't have had access to a computer at
all ... 

recycling is a matter of "done right", just saying "the whole approach
is wrong" is very short sighted...

ciao
oli

[1] http://www.linux4afrika.de
[2] http://www.freegeek.org/



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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 04:56:02 -0400, JMZ wrote:
>On 09/10/2016 04:17 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>
>
>> Technical progress is not the same as human progress. Computer
>> progress is just required in a few domains, that are completely
>> irrelevant for most computer users, but human kind needs progress,
>> we can't continue our social and ecological misbehaviour much longer.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Ralf
>>  
>
>Ralf, as you know, computer recycling is big business in North America 
>and the EU.  There's a depot in my American town where people throw
>away unused technology for recycling.  Developed countries can recycle
>as users buy new boxes.  It's just not realistic to expect this level
>of ecological ability in most countries.  We can work on developing a
>green computer recycling system in other places, but achieving that
>goal might take a long time.  Until then, it's just important to get
>the world online.

As already pointed out, recycling or refurbishing for the poor already
is the wrong approach, only using computers for a longer period of time
and repairing components of computers, instead of replacing them
completely solves environmental and social problems. The poot should
use the same computers as the rich. Recycling does not mean that it
doesn't cause e-waste and waste by idiotic traffic there and back to
foreign country's slums and that workers aren't exploited. Just rare
earth elements are recycled and much e-waste remains. The complete
approach is wrong.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[JMZ]

On 09/10/2016 04:17 AM, Ralf Mardorf wrote:



Technical progress is not the same as human progress. Computer progress
is just required in a few domains, that are completely irrelevant for
most computer users, but human kind needs progress, we can't continue
our social and ecological misbehaviour much longer.

Regards,
Ralf



Ralf, as you know, computer recycling is big business in North America 
and the EU.  There's a depot in my American town where people throw away 
unused technology for recycling.  Developed countries can recycle as 
users buy new boxes.  It's just not realistic to expect this level of 
ecological ability in most countries.  We can work on developing a green 
computer recycling system in other places, but achieving that goal might 
take a long time.  Until then, it's just important to get the world online.


Jordan

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Sat, 2016-09-10 at 03:55 -0400, JMZ wrote:
> On 09/09/2016 06:06 PM, Thierry Andriamirado wrote:
> > Le 9 septembre 2016 04:00:12 UTC+03:00, Simos Xenitellis a écrit :
> > > 
> > > Considering that at least until 2021 we will be fine regarding 32-
> > > bit support, I think it would be good to gradually get people to
> > > switch to small-board computers.
> > Right.
> > 
> > 
> > These are nowdays quite cheap, and you can get a quad-core SBC with
> > 2GB RAM for under 30€.
> > I hope prices of those hardwares will quickly drop. They are still
> > inexistant here, and the day you'll find one, you'll buy it 200 € :(
> > 
> Rural SBC clusters might work.  A 64-bit multi-core SBC cluster in the
> mairie? Homes use recycled 32-bit boxes with low RAM and a small hard
> drive.  This will be enough to log into the SBC for data or internet
> when available.  It's okay if the 32-bit kernels are not updated that
> much.  We just have to keep 32-bit alive.
>
> There's got to be a foundation which could sell SBC's for 20 euro each
> as a development project.

This doesn't help to keep old hardware, to avoid depletion of rare earth
elements, let alone that this "buy something new, to replace something
that still does the job" attitude also comes with bad social aspects.

If kernels aren't updated, then it easily affects software, e.g. dkms
might be unable to build virtualbox modules.

Technical progress is not the same as human progress. Computer progress
is just required in a few domains, that are completely irrelevant for
most computer users, but human kind needs progress, we can't continue
our social and ecological misbehaviour much longer.

Regards,
Ralf

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[JMZ]

Rural SBC clusters might work.  A 64-bit multi-core SBC cluster in the 
mairie? Homes use recycled 32-bit boxes with low RAM and a small hard 
drive.  This will be enough to log into the SBC for data or internet 
when available.  It's okay if the 32-bit kernels are not updated that 
much.  We just have to keep 32-bit alive.


There's got to be a foundation which could sell SBC's for 20 euro each 
as a development project.


Jordan


On 09/09/2016 06:06 PM, Thierry Andriamirado wrote:


Le 9 septembre 2016 04:00:12 UTC+03:00, Simos Xenitellis 
 a écrit :


Considering that at least until 2021 we will be fine regarding 32-bit
support,
I think it would be good to gradually get people to switch to
small-board computers.

Right.


These are nowdays quite cheap, and you can get a quad-core SBC with
2GB RAM for under 30€.

I hope prices of those hardwares will quickly drop. They are still inexistant 
here, and the day you'll find one, you'll buy it 200 € :(

Thierry.




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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Thierry Andriamirado]

Le 9 septembre 2016 04:00:12 UTC+03:00, Simos Xenitellis 
 a écrit :

>Considering that at least until 2021 we will be fine regarding 32-bit
>support,
>I think it would be good to gradually get people to switch to
>small-board computers.

Right.

>These are nowdays quite cheap, and you can get a quad-core SBC with
>2GB RAM for under 30€.

I hope prices of those hardwares will quickly drop. They are still inexistant 
here, and the day you'll find one, you'll buy it 200 € :(

Thierry.

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Alexandre Strube]

Are you suggesting a full port to Raspberry Pi instead?

2016-09-09 3:00 GMT+02:00 Simos Xenitellis :

> On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Thierry Andriamirado
>  wrote:
> >
> >
> > Le 8 septembre 2016 01:35:05 UTC+03:00, John Moser <
> john.r.mo...@gmail.com> a écrit :
> >>
> >>> There are countless very old computers running Ubuntu, in Developing
> >>> Countries.
> >>>
> >>
> >>It's not my fault nobody counted.
> >
> > It's nobody's fault: many of those Ubuntu boxes are used in villages in
> the bush, and are not even connected to the Internet. Updated from time to
> time via CD-Rom..
> >
>
> As far as I know, many of the second-hand old PCs that make it to the
> developing world, are old computers from companies and universities in
> Europe.
> A proper disposal in the EU costs money, so they donate them to
> intermediaries (so no cost for the companies) that send them to
> developing countries.
> Those that receive them, end up paying quite some money (50-100€?),
> which is good profit to the intermediaries.
>
> Considering that at least until 2021 we will be fine regarding 32-bit
> support,
> I think it would be good to gradually get people to switch to
> small-board computers.
> These are nowdays quite cheap, and you can get a quad-core SBC with
> 2GB RAM for under 30€.
>
> Simos
>
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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Simos Xenitellis]

On Thu, Sep 8, 2016 at 6:10 PM, Thierry Andriamirado
 wrote:
>
>
> Le 8 septembre 2016 01:35:05 UTC+03:00, John Moser  a 
> écrit :
>>
>>> There are countless very old computers running Ubuntu, in Developing
>>> Countries.
>>>
>>
>>It's not my fault nobody counted.
>
> It's nobody's fault: many of those Ubuntu boxes are used in villages in the 
> bush, and are not even connected to the Internet. Updated from time to time 
> via CD-Rom..
>

As far as I know, many of the second-hand old PCs that make it to the
developing world, are old computers from companies and universities in
Europe.
A proper disposal in the EU costs money, so they donate them to
intermediaries (so no cost for the companies) that send them to
developing countries.
Those that receive them, end up paying quite some money (50-100€?),
which is good profit to the intermediaries.

Considering that at least until 2021 we will be fine regarding 32-bit support,
I think it would be good to gradually get people to switch to
small-board computers.
These are nowdays quite cheap, and you can get a quad-core SBC with
2GB RAM for under 30€.

Simos

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[John Moser]

On Thu, 2016-09-08 at 18:10 +0300, Thierry Andriamirado wrote:
> 
> Le 8 septembre 2016 01:35:05 UTC+03:00, John Moser  l.com> a écrit :
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > There are countless very old computers running Ubuntu, in
> > > Developing
> > > Countries.
> > > 
> > It's not my fault nobody counted.
> It's nobody's fault: many of those Ubuntu boxes are used in villages
> in the bush, and are not even connected to the Internet. Updated from
> time to time via CD-Rom..
> 

Sorry, my socialization is kind of poor, and I never know what's going
to come across.

I was implying that the ideal that there are some unknown "Many" and
that such things serve some dire purpose is imaginative because there
aren't even estimates on program size, much less impact.  Essentially,
you were begging the question, and I called you on it.

So what we have here is an imaginary program with an imaginary impact
that is more-likely to exist the closer we get to 0 (that is:  it's
almost-certain someone in some bush country has 1 or more such
machines; it becomes less-certain the larger we scale).  Directly, the
probability of size can't be known (i.e. estimates are impossible);
indirectly, because the probability of size can't be known, there is a
larger probability of any such thing being smaller and less-effective
--two independent traits stemming from the common cause of not having a
well-defined and well-operating program.

It would be safe to assume OLPC is much larger in scope of impact
because OLPC has a structured program working to maximize effectiveness
and distribution, whereas the supposed Ubuntu systems are theoretically
out there somewhere for some reason as consequence of some effort by
someone.

I remain unconvinced of imaginary things--including the imaginary
mountain where one might expect to find at least a molehill.  When you
get a picture of Bigfoot, let me know.

That explanation should be crass enough to sink in.

> -- 
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> 

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Thierry Andriamirado]

Le 8 septembre 2016 01:35:05 UTC+03:00, John Moser  a 
écrit :
>
>> There are countless very old computers running Ubuntu, in Developing
>> Countries.
>> 
>
>It's not my fault nobody counted.

It's nobody's fault: many of those Ubuntu boxes are used in villages in the 
bush, and are not even connected to the Internet. Updated from time to time via 
CD-Rom..

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Wed, 7 Sep 2016 15:04:21 -0700, Brendan Perrine wrote:
>I have a computer that I have only had for a little more than 2 years
>that already has more than 10,000 powered on hours on two disks
>granted these are newer than pata disks

As already pointed out, HDDs suffer from spinning down and up,
not that much from usage. Those two SATA drives are from a home
computer that relatively often is turned off and on, IOW it's not up
for several hundred days, sometimes the HDDs spin down and up several
times a day. There's not really a difference to IDE drives.

[root@moonstudio weremouse]# smartctl -a /dev/sda|grep Hours
  9 Power_On_Hours  0x0032   100   100   000Old_age   Always   
-   41986
[root@moonstudio weremouse]# smartctl -a /dev/sdb|grep Hours
  9 Power_On_Hours  0x0032   100   100   000Old_age   Always   
-   33917
240 Head_Flying_Hours   0x0032   100   100   000Old_age   Always   
-   33917
[root@moonstudio weremouse]# uptime|cut -d, -f1
 00:50:53 up 8 days

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[John Moser]

On Wed, 2016-09-07 at 15:54 +0300, Thierry Andriamirado wrote:
> 
> Le 7 septembre 2016 04:58:44 UTC+03:00, John Moser  l.com> a écrit :
> > 
> > 
> > that context are uncommon by nature.  That in an of itself seems to
> > warrant a project specially dedicated to e-waste reuse programs,
> > rather
> > than a best-effort and costly nod to the concept of older systems.
> There are countless very old computers running Ubuntu, in Developing
> Countries.
> 


It's not my fault nobody counted.

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Brendan Perrine]

On Wed, 7 Sep 2016 14:17:25 +0300
Simos Xenitellis  wrote:

> The "Raw Value" is the number of hours. The maximum I ever saw on a


I have a computer that I have only had for a little more than 2 years that 
already has more than 10,000 powered on hours on two disks granted these are 
newer than pata disks 
-- smartctl 6.6 2016-05-31 r4324 [x86_64-linux-4.4.0-9136-generic] (local build)
Copyright (C) 2002-16, Bruce Allen, Christian Franke, www.smartmontools.org

=== START OF READ SMART DATA SECTION ===
SMART Attributes Data Structure revision number: 16
Vendor Specific SMART Attributes with Thresholds:
ID# ATTRIBUTE_NAME  FLAG VALUE WORST THRESH TYPE  UPDATED  
WHEN_FAILED RAW_VALUE
  1 Raw_Read_Error_Rate 0x000b   100   100   016Pre-fail  Always   
-   0
  2 Throughput_Performance  0x0005   139   139   054Pre-fail  Offline  
-   72
  3 Spin_Up_Time0x0007   131   131   024Pre-fail  Always   
-   282 (Average 294)
  4 Start_Stop_Count0x0012   100   100   000Old_age   Always   
-   776
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   005Pre-fail  Always   
-   0
  7 Seek_Error_Rate 0x000b   100   100   067Pre-fail  Always   
-   0
  8 Seek_Time_Performance   0x0005   126   126   020Pre-fail  Offline  
-   32
  9 Power_On_Hours  0x0012   099   099   000Old_age   Always   
-   10404
 10 Spin_Retry_Count0x0013   100   100   060Pre-fail  Always   
-   0
 12 Power_Cycle_Count   0x0032   100   100   000Old_age   Always   
-   776
192 Power-Off_Retract_Count 0x0032   100   100   000Old_age   Always   
-   810
193 Load_Cycle_Count0x0012   100   100   000Old_age   Always   
-   810
194 Temperature_Celsius 0x0002   166   166   000Old_age   Always   
-   36 (Min/Max 17/44)
196 Reallocated_Event_Count 0x0032   100   100   000Old_age   Always   
-   0
197 Current_Pending_Sector  0x0022   100   100   000Old_age   Always   
-   0
198 Offline_Uncorrectable   0x0008   100   100   000Old_age   Offline  
-   0
199 UDMA_CRC_Error_Count0x000a   200   200   000Old_age   Always   
-   2555
 for my hard drive although this one is sata hard drive although for a desktop 
so it would have less power cycles and less physical movement that can mess up 
the drive. I don't have a 32 bit only laptop handy at the moment and I am 
probably an extreme edge case I have my mom laptop from about 2008 which is 64 
bit and still has a pata drive in it. 

I checked a laptop used from my mom with and it had 9,330 power on hours on a 
pata disk but this particular laptop has a 64 bit processor but came with 32 
bit windows vista. 

These are all in my posession right now of hardware I have on me. All the hard 
drives had zero reallocated sectors. I do understand hard drives eventually 
fail. I don't think they fail quite that often or all die by 10,000 power on 
hours. Although hard drive failure is mostly what hardware failures I have had. 

Brendan Perrine 

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Alan Pope]

Hi,

On 7 September 2016 at 12:17, Simos Xenitellis
 wrote:
> The mechanical harddisk should be a PATA (that is, IDE and not SATA),
> meaning that it is not replaceable with a new disk; PATA disks are not
> manufactured any more.

A minor point, but there's a company called Kingspec who sell new PATA
SSDs, still.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kingspec-128GB-Solid-Notebook-Laptop/dp/B00HWOYY72

Good for bringing a speed boost, and life to older computers. I know a
few people who use them, and swear by them.

Cheers,
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Community Manager

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+44 (0) 7973 620 164
alan.p...@canonical.com
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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Thierry Andriamirado]

Le 7 septembre 2016 14:17:25 UTC+03:00, Simos Xenitellis 
 a écrit :

>I am not addressing your request, I am focusing on the practicalities
>of maintaining an old laptop as a server.
>I assume your laptop was made around the year 2000-2003 because the
>CPU is Intel 80586.

I still own and use such an old computer. Its still on my desk right now, and 
another (older) one is awaiting to be repaired.

>The mechanical harddisk should be a PATA (that is, IDE and not SATA),
>meaning that it is not replaceable with a new disk; PATA disks are not
>manufactured any more.
>In addition, it cannot accept a converter between PATA and SATA so
>that you can use a new hard disk (no space for converter in a laptop).
>By using the laptop as a server, it is always on. This causes issues
>with the mechanical hard disk that would limit its lifespan.
>In addition, the thermal paste that transfers heat away from the CPU
>and towards the heatsink should probably be dry by now. That is, the
>thermal paste might not work at all.

I saw a "new" PATA harddisk few weeks ago here in Madagascar. I think I'd buy 
one, actually. Not so expensive, AFAIR.


>Nowdays, instead of having an old laptop as a server, the common thing
>to do is get a Small Board Computer (SBC),
>like the Raspberry Pi. There are cheaper versions, and they start at
>around $15. You can get them to run Ubuntu just fine.

That's in my plans. But not easy to find them, and at the right price, here 
ATM. It's easier for us to keep our old machines up and running, for eg. for 
local photos sharing, etc..
Obviously not for watching videos ;)

Cheers

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Thierry Andriamirado]

Le 7 septembre 2016 04:58:44 UTC+03:00, John Moser  a 
écrit :
>
>that context are uncommon by nature.  That in an of itself seems to
>warrant a project specially dedicated to e-waste reuse programs, rather
>than a best-effort and costly nod to the concept of older systems.

There are countless very old computers running Ubuntu, in Developing Countries.

It is very important to keep them running. Important for the whole Ubuntu 
Community too, as we are educating futur users, admins, contributors and 
developers.

Ubuntu should IMO keep supporting them, whatever by which mean. Not easy, but 
we have to find some viable solution.
Thanks for having launch this thread! (Y)

Thierry.

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Wed, 7 Sep 2016 14:17:25 +0300, Simos Xenitellis wrote:
>By using the laptop as a server, it is always on. This causes issues
>with the mechanical hard disk that would limit its lifespan.

JFTR spinning a HDD down and up shortens the lifespan much more than
continuous operation.

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Wed, 7 Sep 2016 13:08:12 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote:
>On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 22:15:40 -0400, JMZ wrote:  
>>Wow, thanks John.  Your intensive explanation of e-waste and its
>>impact on the environment and human labor is very enlightening.
>
>But it's a lie, completely wrong, ignoring what should be done in the
>first place!  

PS: How do we get the rare earth elements for new unites? Only by
exploiting humans and the environment.

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Simos Xenitellis]

On Wed, Sep 7, 2016 at 3:08 AM, Ryan Cunningham
 wrote:
>
> I have heard recently that Ubuntu has plans to cancel support for processors 
> in the Intel 80386 family (and clones of the same). This is impacting me 
> because I have a 32-bit Ubuntu machine (powered by an Intel 80586) which runs 
> Ubuntu 16.10. This machine, a home laptop converted into a server, is only in 
> the testing phase right now and probably will remain there for 6 years at 
> most. That is, until I obtain my bachelor's degree in elementary/high school 
> education and my teaching certificate (I am going to use this machine for a 
> school I will thereafter create).

Hi!
First of all, regardless of all other decisions that be taken, you are
fine with 16.04 at least until the year 2021.

I am not addressing your request, I am focusing on the practicalities
of maintaining an old laptop as a server.
I assume your laptop was made around the year 2000-2003 because the
CPU is Intel 80586.
The mechanical harddisk should be a PATA (that is, IDE and not SATA),
meaning that it is not replaceable with a new disk; PATA disks are not
manufactured any more.
In addition, it cannot accept a converter between PATA and SATA so
that you can use a new hard disk (no space for converter in a laptop).
By using the laptop as a server, it is always on. This causes issues
with the mechanical hard disk that would limit its lifespan.
In addition, the thermal paste that transfers heat away from the CPU
and towards the heatsink should probably be dry by now. That is, the
thermal paste might not work at all.

You should get health metrics from this laptop in order to assess
whether it can work reliably until 2021.
Specifically,

A. Hard disk health status.

Install "smartnontools" (extract health data from inside the hard disk) with

sudo apt install smartmontools

Then, obtain the hard disk health status report by running

sudo smartctl -a /dev/hda

This command will read the internal attributes that are stored on the hard disk.
Among those attributes, the important ones are
1. Power_On_Hours (how many hours the hard disk was on, which
coincides with the laptop being on).
The "Raw Value" is the number of hours. The maximum I ever saw on a
working disk was 1.
I am really interested in seeing your value for this one.
2. Reallocated_Sector_Ct (how many bad sectors have been reallocated
to the buffer space).
Here the Raw value should be 0.

B. CPU Temperature

Install "lm-sensors" (read motherboard sensor values)

sudo apt install lm-sensors

Configure "lm-sensors"

sudo sensors-detect

(answer Yes to the autodetection).

Finally, read the current sensor values with

sensors

The temperatures when your laptop is idle, should be below 50C. If
they are over 60C when idle, you have heating issues.

Nowdays, instead of having an old laptop as a server, the common thing
to do is get a Small Board Computer (SBC),
like the Raspberry Pi. There are cheaper versions, and they start at
around $15. You can get them to run Ubuntu just fine.

Hope this helps,
Simos

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 22:15:40 -0400, JMZ wrote:
>Wow, thanks John.  Your intensive explanation of e-waste and its
>impact on the environment and human labor is very enlightening.

But it's a lie, completely wrong, ignoring what should be done in the
first place!

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 06 Sep 2016 21:58:44 -0400, John Moser wrote:
>Collecting, inventorying, and preparing e-waste as a
>refurbished good incurs more labor per unit than rolling new units off
>an assembly line

That's evil bullshit! If we simply use our own computers for a very
long period of time, instead to updating the hardware for no valid
reason, then something like this wouldn't happen:
http://andrewmcconnell.photoshelter.com/gallery/GoLuiBLHIsmM

There's actually no need to refurbish, simply using computers as long
as possible is required.

The problem already is, that even my old 64 bit CPU does not support
SSE3. I guess my hardware is even not 10 years old and can't be used
with some Linux software I need, because it requires SSE3, even while
there actually wouldn't be the need for it, SSE2 would do the job, too.

It's just politic, greed that rules. It has nothing to do with such
idiotic excuses.

Shame on You!

[weremouse@moonstudio ~]$ sudo hwinfo --cpu
01: None 00.0: 10103 CPU
  [Created at cpu.460]
  Unique ID: rdCR.j8NaKXDZtZ6
  Hardware Class: cpu
  Arch: X86-64
  Vendor: "AuthenticAMD"
  Model: 15.107.2 "AMD Athlon(tm) X2 Dual Core Processor BE-2350"
  Features: 
fpu,vme,de,pse,tsc,msr,pae,mce,cx8,apic,sep,mtrr,pge,mca,cmov,pat,pse36,clflush,mmx,fxsr,sse,sse2,ht,syscall,nx,mmxext,fxsr_opt,rdtscp,lm,3dnowext,3dnow,rep_good,nopl,extd_apicid,pni,cx16,lahf_lm,cmp_legacy,svm,extapic,cr8_legacy,3dnowprefetch,vmmcall,lbrv
  Clock: 2100 MHz
  BogoMips: 4199.83
  Cache: 512 kb
  Units/Processor: 2
  Config Status: cfg=new, avail=yes, need=no, active=unknown

02: None 01.0: 10103 CPU
  [Created at cpu.460]
  Unique ID: wkFv.j8NaKXDZtZ6
  Hardware Class: cpu
  Arch: X86-64
  Vendor: "AuthenticAMD"
  Model: 15.107.2 "AMD Athlon(tm) X2 Dual Core Processor BE-2350"
  Features: 
fpu,vme,de,pse,tsc,msr,pae,mce,cx8,apic,sep,mtrr,pge,mca,cmov,pat,pse36,clflush,mmx,fxsr,sse,sse2,ht,syscall,nx,mmxext,fxsr_opt,rdtscp,lm,3dnowext,3dnow,rep_good,nopl,extd_apicid,pni,cx16,lahf_lm,cmp_legacy,svm,extapic,cr8_legacy,3dnowprefetch,vmmcall,lbrv
  Clock: 2100 MHz
  BogoMips: 4199.83
  Cache: 512 kb
  Units/Processor: 2
  Config Status: cfg=new, avail=yes, need=no, active=unknown

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Oliver Grawert]

hi,
Am Mittwoch, den 07.09.2016, 02:43 +0200 schrieb Ralf Mardorf:
> On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 17:08:30 -0700, Ryan Cunningham wrote:
> > 
> > I have heard recently that Ubuntu has plans to cancel support for
> > processors in the Intel 80386 family (and clones of the same).
> Hi,
> 
> I'm not a developer. However, already 3 years ago i386 support was
> removed from Linux 3.8. I guess you are confusing i386 with 32 bit in
> general. It's confusing that Ubuntu 32 bit packages are named i386,
> while actually they are not i386. I don't know, I guess they are
> i586.
> But yes, dropping 32 bit support completely seems to happen
> relatively
> soon.

thats unlikely ;)

32bit installer/image support (and the related iso testing that hogs a
lot of time) might be dropped at some point soon, thats true. but the
archive will still persist for quite some time, there is to much
nonfree software that neeeds 32bit multiarch support (32bit is also
immensely important in embedded and IoT where you are memory
constrained), so the packages in the archive will still be built. as
long as this is the case you can always use a 16.04 installer and then
upgrade to the latest release. 

ciao
oli

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Colin Law]

On 7 Sep 2016 1:09 a.m., "Ryan Cunningham" 
wrote:
>
> [The following message is a re-post from an aborted message thread
originally sent to .]
>
> Attn. Ubuntu Developers:
>
> I have heard recently that Ubuntu has plans to cancel support for
processors in the Intel 80386 family (and clones of the same). This is
impacting me because I have a 32-bit Ubuntu machine (powered by an Intel
80586) which runs Ubuntu 16.10. This machine, a home laptop converted into
a server, is only in the testing phase right now and probably will remain
there for 6 years at most.

Would you not be better to go back to 16.04 LTS which will be supported
till April 2021?

Colin
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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[JMZ]

On 09/06/2016 09:58 PM, John Moser wrote:



Is this even worth the resources?  There are multiple issues here, most
obvious being the distinction between a current-generation operating
system (Ubuntu) and a special-purpose software project (to target
legacy hardware).  Is legacy 32-bit support part of Ubuntu's mission,
or are resources best diverted to improving the system for the other
99.99% of use cases?  Like it or not, i586 is probably less than one in
ten thousand installations.



Wow, thanks John.  Your intensive explanation of e-waste and its impact 
on the environment and human labor is very enlightening.  Now I'll think 
twice about recommending Pentium 4's as good candidates for 
low-intensity computing.  Better to leave them at the dump.


I don't spend more than $200 on a laptop or desktop. Two/three-year-old 
off lease 64-bit machines are everywhere.  Still, the <$200 price band 
may be expensive for startup schools, low-income people, etc.  Perhaps 
donation money should be given for the purchase of used dual cores or 
better.  A mass market non-upgradeable $50 64-bit slim client would be 
helpful even in developed countries, but I see no profit there.


Jordan

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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[John Moser]

On Tue, 2016-09-06 at 21:33 -0400, JMZ wrote:
> Hi Ryan,
> 
> When you say "Ubuntu 16.10" I wonder if you mean that you are
> running 
> gnome with the unity shell or just the command line only. Running any
> of 
> the graphical enviroments (save maybe lxde) on a 80586 would be
> pretty 
> exceptional.
> 
> 

> Pentium 4/4 HT systems (which are still 80586 chipset basically) can
> be 
> got even at community trash dumps.  If you're starting a school,
> setting 
> up donated Pentium 4's and old dual-cores with Lubuntu or another
> lxde 
> distro might be your best bet.  This is especially true if all
> you're 
> running is Firefox and LibreOffice, or similar.
> 

Is this even worth the resources?  There are multiple issues here, most
obvious being the distinction between a current-generation operating
system (Ubuntu) and a special-purpose software project (to target
legacy hardware).  Is legacy 32-bit support part of Ubuntu's mission,
or are resources best diverted to improving the system for the other
99.99% of use cases?  Like it or not, i586 is probably less than one in
ten thousand installations.


E-waste reuse is itself an economics issue.  We like to think we can
donate those systems to some poor people somewhere; but that has a huge
array of complexities:

* Humans have to eat, among other things, and so their labor time is at
  a premium:  you trade the labor time to produce one good for the
  labor time to produce another, e.g. food, and thus any volunteered
  time is a real cost paid by the volunteer;

* Collecting, sorting, and shipping those things takes human labor; 

* The logistics takes an immense amount of labor:  who gets these
  computers, what are their requirements, how do we optimize the
  benefit for their particular poverty case, and so forth;

* The targets of e-waste reuse are frequently poor nations with
  unreliable or expensive access to electricity and even waste
  disposal

E-waste reuse can actually cost as much or more than new production,
and has runtime costs because it's less-efficient to use, maintain, and
even power.  Collecting, inventorying, and preparing e-waste as a
refurbished good incurs more labor per unit than rolling new units off
an assembly line; the cost advantage depends on if the components cost
more than the additional labor.  Even then, there's a lot of cost in
developing the logistics of using something out-of-date in a modern
environment.

Even if you can co-opt slave labor into the deal, is supporting this
kind of specialized use costly for the Ubuntu maintainers?  Just
running a build of the OS as 32-bit is inadequate; with the broad range
of out-of-date hardware left behind by modern system software, you'd
need to respond to ad-hoc support issues with varied hardware
configurations breaking because all hardware configurations used in
that context are uncommon by nature.  That in an of itself seems to
warrant a project specially dedicated to e-waste reuse programs, rather
than a best-effort and costly nod to the concept of older systems.



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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[JMZ]

Hi Ryan,

When you say "Ubuntu 16.10" I wonder if you mean that you are running 
gnome with the unity shell or just the command line only. Running any of 
the graphical enviroments (save maybe lxde) on a 80586 would be pretty 
exceptional.


I agree somewhat that 80586 single core processor support could be 
relegated to the community.  However, community maintenance can be 
spotty, with updates coming down the pike irregularly.  It'd be better 
if Canonical can hold on and at officially support 32-bit systems with 
Lubuntu (which could be designated "the only 32-bit flavor").


Pentium 4/4 HT systems (which are still 80586 chipset basically) can be 
got even at community trash dumps.  If you're starting a school, setting 
up donated Pentium 4's and old dual-cores with Lubuntu or another lxde 
distro might be your best bet.  This is especially true if all you're 
running is Firefox and LibreOffice, or similar.


Jordan


On 09/06/2016 08:08 PM, Ryan Cunningham wrote:

[The following message is a re-post from an aborted message thread originally sent to 
.]

Attn. Ubuntu Developers:

I have heard recently that Ubuntu has plans to cancel support for processors in 
the Intel 80386 family (and clones of the same). This is impacting me because I 
have a 32-bit Ubuntu machine (powered by an Intel 80586) which runs Ubuntu 
16.10.




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Re: My opinion on Ubuntu cancelling Intel 80386/80386-clone processor support

[Ralf Mardorf]

On Tue, 6 Sep 2016 17:08:30 -0700, Ryan Cunningham wrote:
>I have heard recently that Ubuntu has plans to cancel support for
>processors in the Intel 80386 family (and clones of the same).

Hi,

I'm not a developer. However, already 3 years ago i386 support was
removed from Linux 3.8. I guess you are confusing i386 with 32 bit in
general. It's confusing that Ubuntu 32 bit packages are named i386,
while actually they are not i386. I don't know, I guess they are i586.
But yes, dropping 32 bit support completely seems to happen relatively
soon.

Regards,
Ralf

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