Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Yep. We're very pleased that there are OEMs selling computers with Ubuntu pre-installed, so that millions more people are using Free Software. And we're happy to accept feedback from those OEMs on problems their customers have with Ubuntu, even if some of that feedback is private. We're not going to make unrealistic demands that they do all their product development in public. We couldn't do that even if we wanted to, precisely because Ubuntu is Free Software. In my opinion we should rather point to build a distributed usability study. Some of us teach ubuntu to ordinary persons; when there are doubts about usability, such as the new behaviour of update-notifier, a set of fixed-answer questions should be prepared (perhaps starting from a discussion on this list). All of us will be able to try this on our... patients :) and report how they react, together with some data on their age, profession, computer science exposure and so on. Then we will not have to choose between observations such as my grandma would never understand the new behaviour of the apache restart mechanism - not that she uses linux - or even the PC, though AND closed-source studies. What I expect for example is that for the new update notifier behaviour we would get a lot of users just getting used to close the window that pops up in the middle of their work and ignore the upgrades. But I might be proven wrong, so that would be a good question to ask. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
2009/3/22 Vincenzo Ciancia cian...@di.unipi.it: Yep. We're very pleased that there are OEMs selling computers with Ubuntu pre-installed, so that millions more people are using Free Software. And we're happy to accept feedback from those OEMs on problems their customers have with Ubuntu, even if some of that feedback is private. We're not going to make unrealistic demands that they do all their product development in public. We couldn't do that even if we wanted to, precisely because Ubuntu is Free Software. In my opinion we should rather point to build a distributed usability study. Some of us teach ubuntu to ordinary persons; when there are doubts about usability, such as the new behaviour of update-notifier, a set of fixed-answer questions should be prepared (perhaps starting from a discussion on this list). All of us will be able to try this on our... patients :) and report how they react, together with some data on their age, profession, computer science exposure and so on. Then we will not have to choose between observations such as my grandma would never understand the new behaviour of the apache restart mechanism - not that she uses linux - or even the PC, though AND closed-source studies. What I expect for example is that for the new update notifier behaviour we would get a lot of users just getting used to close the window that pops up in the middle of their work and ignore the upgrades. But I might be proven wrong, so that would be a good question to ask. It is very good idea and I dream myself about something like that for very long time, but there are bunch of problems - first of all, how to make OEMs to trust this? (as they will get result and they will have to work with it) Yes, you can create strong methodology, be very careful about selecting data and drawing concludions, but still...how they will now that result isn't affected by some thirty party, interested in them to fail? How you would ease their paranoia? :) I see two parts of this which needs solving: 1) Create study platform for testing such stuff like gui changes 2) Create trust to this study platform within interested players - commercial OEMs, non-commercials, universies; Propably will need stearing from Cannonical, but I think it can be done. Even more - I think it is time to get this right. Freedesktop.org was right way to star this (as on collaboration and standardizing things), but we need to get to second level. Cheers, Peter. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
2) Create trust to this study platform within interested players - commercial OEMs, non-commercials, universies; Is Canonical not interested in brining these OEMs and other commercial entities into the community or does it find it's job is now just to shield them from the community? I hope that commercial interests are willing to become full members as is deserved of any productive member of this community. Willing and able to participate in discussion, sharing information about relevant findings and new developments. This is why I'm so happy to see Dell reps at UDS, it feels like they have a stake in what goes on in the wider Ubuntu community and they're willing to work inside the community instead of outside. So in answer: considering the views of all community members should cover OEMs and other organisations views. So we have no need for special caveats. Regards, Martin -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
By the way, as innocent bystander of all this disscussion, I wanted to check out that icon which was replacement of new NM zero signal strength icon (as I understood, design team overlook decision of using it and provided better alternative), but I really can't find it. It doesn't appear in upgrades, nor in daily live cd. Where I can take a look at it? Or I was wrong about whole better alternative thing? :) Thanks everyone for trying to get Ubuntu better. Let's hope our discusion about different icons for different connections will bring some fruit and bug reports in a future. Cheers, Peter. 2009/3/21 (``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo ubu...@bugabundo.net: Olá Matthew e a todos. On Friday 20 March 2009 11:29:56 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Thanks for your efforts. I hope you can understand I can, of course. I'm not a one side person... I listen to all sides if possible. Thanks for your efforts. -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786 GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB http://BUGabundo.net -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss -- mortigi tempo Pēteris Krišjānis -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Op vrijdag 20-03-2009 om 17:48 uur [tijdzone +], schreef Matthew Paul Thomas: Yep. We're very pleased that there are OEMs selling computers with Ubuntu pre-installed, so that millions more people are using Free Software. And we're happy to accept feedback from those OEMs on problems their customers have with Ubuntu, even if some of that feedback is private. We're not going to make unrealistic demands that they do all their product development in public. Studies that haven't seen any peer review aren't very convincing in both the scientific community *and* the open source community though, and there is a good reason for that. Even if many ordinary people maybe won't be able to judge such a study, I'm sure they will have more trust in a study that's available for public scrutiny than in some secret report that impacts their daily life. Imagine the government would decide that internet should be forbidden for common citizens, pointing to a secret report as proof, and cut off all internet access, how would you react? For all we know, their claim might be as valid as this OEM usability study... Conclusion: I hope Canonical does everything possible to explain psychology 101 to their OEM partners. :-P -- Jan Claeys -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
On 20/03/2009 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: That's a reasonable complaint, but not an easy one to address. OEMs don't want to give their hardware competitors any ideas prematurely Come on! That's the opposite of the spirite of free software - or at least of open source. Closed-source companies too, do not want to give their competitors any ideas, be it prematurely or not, that's how they laugh in your face when you propose them open strategies. If they publish their results, chances are that some expert will be able to referee their work and eventually publish a critic comment; and maybe that would outline some mistake in the studies and then convince everybody that a certain design is not such a good idea as it seemed from the OEM study. That's quite in the spirit of open-* and we should try to stick to this attitude rather than justifying what will be wrong for the entire community. This is not meant to accuse you or canonical in any way; perhaps I just want to point out the obvious: how it looks like on our free-software-enthusiasts side. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 (``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo wrote on 19/03/09 01:18: ... I'm sleepy and have bad memory, but AFAIR this all tread as been kept active because Design Team as one or more _closed source_ studies from OEMs that state that the old icon as bad UI, while most of us actually like it and understood it. ... That's a reasonable complaint, but not an easy one to address. OEMs don't want to give their hardware competitors any ideas prematurely, so they want to keep hardware-related usability test results confidential. And since they (correctly!) treat the hardware and software as an integrated system, software usability issues end up private too. I'm seeking approval from the OEM to publish here just the portion of their summary of findings that deals with the Network Manager icon in particular. (But, no promises.) ... As promised, I again asked today, the new batch of students of my FOSS class, while showing off Ubuntu (GNOME) 8.10, what they though about the update-notifier icon, and the NM icon. ... Thanks for your efforts. I hope you can understand, though, that an expert-run study of what potential customers actually do must outweigh a survey of what FOSS enthusiasts say they think.* Of course a public study of what potential customers actually do would be even better than a private one, so we're continuing to pursue the possibility of public user testing too. * http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20010805.html is a good read, if you can avoid being outraged by the title. ;-) Cheers - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknDfi8ACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrNYwCdEB4c/VHcMry5ZZMqe8vYG38R JvQAmgMcHjtOXo7lrT5VUSRl01kDkess =v4bC -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Vincenzo Ciancia wrote on 20/03/09 12:36: On 20/03/2009 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: That's a reasonable complaint, but not an easy one to address. OEMs don't want to give their hardware competitors any ideas prematurely Come on! That's the opposite of the spirite of free software - or at least of open source. That's not surprising, since the word software appears nowhere in the text you quoted. ;-) Closed-source companies too, do not want to give their competitors any ideas, be it prematurely or not, that's how they laugh in your face when you propose them open strategies. Yep. We're very pleased that there are OEMs selling computers with Ubuntu pre-installed, so that millions more people are using Free Software. And we're happy to accept feedback from those OEMs on problems their customers have with Ubuntu, even if some of that feedback is private. We're not going to make unrealistic demands that they do all their product development in public. We couldn't do that even if we wanted to, precisely because Ubuntu is Free Software. If they publish their results, chances are that some expert will be able to referee their work and eventually publish a critic comment; and maybe that would outline some mistake in the studies and then convince everybody that a certain design is not such a good idea as it seemed from the OEM study. ... That's true. An expert-run user test where the results were public would be better than an expert-run user test where the results are confidential. (If you have the resources to run public tests like that, please get in touch.) But an expert-run user test where the data is confidential is still much better than none at all. Cheers - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAknD1voACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrzJgCdF8vnVMRmlcuCRHp/BLhsGqTi ERwAoKijvfIe4DR7pjxY24wZCKZ1aDoM =OIc9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Olá Matthew e a todos. On Friday 20 March 2009 11:29:56 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Thanks for your efforts. I hope you can understand I can, of course. I'm not a one side person... I listen to all sides if possible. Thanks for your efforts. -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Olá Mackenzie e a todos. On Tuesday 17 March 2009 21:26:05 Mackenzie Morgan wrote: I thought he was saying that the OEMs agreed with you... I'm sleepy and have bad memory, but AFAIR this all tread as been kept active because Design Team as one or more _closed source_ studies from OEMs that state that the old icon as bad UI, while most of us actually like it and understood it. The current icon is way better then the one that lead me to email the list so thanks for listening to us, showing that asking us for feedback can and will make Ubuntu better, without the need for us to brining fire and rocks to the table. Now we only have to expect that the Design Team (and other not so Community driven Canonical Task forces) talk to us, let us know their ideas, put them on a PPA and let us try them to get feedback. We have seen the Artwork Team do this in the past and AFAIR it worked out pretty well, dont you? As promised, I again asked today, the new batch of students of my FOSS class, while showing off Ubuntu (GNOME) 8.10, what they though about the update-notifier icon, and the NM icon. As expected (by me and many others here) pretty much all of them stated that to see an *red* icon popup on the tray would lead them to either hover the mouse over to see a balloon or click on it. A popunder was heavily discourage by the more advanced users too. Since all of them came from Windows, the NM icon was a well known icon, but gave them extra options. The only thing they always request me to show them is to explain how to get VPN working (mandatory on our University). It has a been a *long* standing bug to include NM-PPTP on the default Desktop install (but size restrains, not many users using it, etc) as kept it back, but needing net to install a package to have network seems a bit ironic to me! Also the new NM interface to set a VPN requires a few extra mouse clicks (after NM-pptp is installed), making it an even more hard to get concept. Going OT, would any one go For or Against having NM vpn option auto launching some kind of VPN friendly UI to get the NM-pptp/openvpn/cvpn like we do for codecs? -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
hi, Am Dienstag, den 17.03.2009, 18:55 + schrieb Mat Tomaszewski: (``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo wrote: Olá Mat e a todos. On Tuesday 17 March 2009 14:31:59 Mat Tomaszewski wrote: - why not show separate icons for all connection types in the panel? because gnome, kde, freedesktop all want to reduce the number of stuff on the notification bar. That's great, in principle that sounds like a totally right way to go. Yet at the same time most people raise the need for a precise information about their connection status. One of the things we're debating on now is what the user *really* needs to see on his panel as a persistent indicator. One of the results of this debate is already visible in Jaunty, with messaging indicator aiming to replace all the various icons thrown in by different messaging apps. The next steps will inevitably include the N-M behaviours and icons, and it would be great to hear what the individual views on that are. your system can only use one default route (you can set multiple, but only the last set default one will be used as actual default), the interface this route points to should be the one you show the icon for, additional interfaces should be configurable through the menu (if you change to a different default interface it should indeed change the icon) that way you dont waste panel space for confusing information and show the most relevant info the user needs to know about. ciao oli signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
your system can only use one default route [snip] dont waste panel space for confusing information and show the most relevant info the user needs to know about. Have to agree with Oli here. N-M should handle the logic for switching between different networks but in the tray, only one icon should be displayed - the connection currently being used. - Encrypted - Non-encrypted I personally think this more advanced information should be displayed when clicking (or hovering - another debate i'm sure) on the N-M icon. My reasoning being that additional states is confusing and a user knowledgeable about wireless security should also know which networks they automatically connect to. 4. VPNs 5. Bluetooth threading The case of VPNs is interesting and I don't feel it fits into this connection list since it's another layer on top of an already established connection. In the case that you are VPNing over a wireless network, you would like to see both the wireless signal strength and the VPN indicator. Maybe a second icon on the tray should display once connected. Need feedback here from those who use VPN more than I do. Bluetooth threading? (tethering) is a case which I know little about and others will have to help here as well. From my perspective I now sit with 4 network connections and 3 states: 1. Wired 2. Wireless 3. Mobile (3G / Edge) 4. Bluetooth Tethering 1. No connection 2. Connecting 3. Connected (Active) Is there a page where we could put some of this icon/state info into so it's a little more organized? -a -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
On Wednesday 18 March 2009 9:32:36 am Andrew Barbaccia wrote: The case of VPNs is interesting and I don't feel it fits into this connection list since it's another layer on top of an already established connection. In the case that you are VPNing over a wireless network, you would like to see both the wireless signal strength and the VPN indicator. Maybe a second icon on the tray should display once connected. Need feedback here from those who use VPN more than I do. The VPN indicator lock is sufficient. It does its job of notifying me when vpnc has disassociated just fine. If only command line vpnc was so lovely. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
The VPN indicator lock is sufficient. It does its job of notifying me when vpnc has disassociated just fine. If only command line vpnc was so lovely. How does this work currently. I'm unaware as others on this list are too probably. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mat Tomaszewski wrote on 16/03/09 10:02: Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: ... and it's not what OS X does. OS X shows 0 signal icon for both no signal and disconnected. Not sure what I've missed? ... Yes, but Bugabundo's original complaint was about when wireless is off completely: The new icon is very deceiving, making me think I have my WiFi On, but with no signal. Right, so the problem that we have lies somewhere else: N-M at the moment does not allow us to send a different icon for wireless off, but card is present (kill switch) case and wireless on, but no connection established. Facing this problem, until we change the N-M behaviour, the best we can do is to display wireless off (empty bars with red X) for both cases. This is what we've decided upon here and until now no one proposed anything better. Mac OS X icon for wireless off: http://sfghdean.ucsf.edu/wireless/images/ucsf-clinical-mac/wifism01.jpg Mac OS X icon for wireless on but disconnected: http://www.its.ipfw.edu/wireless/images/mac/mac-open-internet-connection.gif. For Ubuntu it's a bit tricker, because we want to distinguish between (1) no connection with wireless off, (2) no connection with wireless on, (3) connected with wireless (at various signal strengths), and (4) connected with wired. Exactly, but first we need N-M to allow us to send right icon for each of the above. Cheers, M. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
The challenge that we're facing is: - we have at least 3 types of network connections that should be represented by the appropriate icon: 1. Wireless 2. Wired 3. 3G Throw general modem connection in a bowl, because it would be needed for bluetooth and simple dialups (which I hope will be supported somewhere in the future by N-M). Just my two euro cents, Peter. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Throw general modem connection in a bowl, because it would be needed for bluetooth Bluetooth has already got its own icon and connection manager. This need improving, too, but as a separate track. I was talking about Bluebooth modems. Yes, there are even two connection managers for managing bluez (gnome-bluetooth and bluez-admin), but they just for general bluetooth connections. Anyway, generic modem version would be a must. I know everyone[1] uses 3G today, but I still wait for N-M to do something amazing and provide simple interface for serial/winmodems. It shouldn't be hard to do, should it :) Cheers, Peter. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Andrew Barbaccia wrote: The challenge that we're facing is: - we have at least 3 types of network connections that should be represented by the appropriate icon: 1. Wireless 2. Wired 3. 3G Each of these has potentially 4 different states: - card present, but switched off - card present, but no connection - connecting - connection established (w/various signal strenghts for wireless and 3G) any help/suggestions are most welcome. Here are my suggestions: - The connecting icon is the same swirling circles for all connection types. - The connection strength for wireless and 3G could be the current bars icon but with a 3G bubble in the corner. If that's too small then possibly different color bars would be sufficient? I believe that switched off is a subset of no connection, so I would use something like this: - Empty bars icon with a slash through it. When the user clicks to connect to a network, it should show: Wireless radio switched off or No wireless connections found or a list of available networks to connect to. I think it would be useful for the community to voice a few sets of options so Mat can discuss with OEMs and maybe present a solution that works for both. Thanks for these suggestions Andrew, some good ideas there. Few questions: - why not show separate icons for all connection types in the panel? - could we merge the connecting animation with the actual icon? - how should the N-M menu behave if there are 2 types of connection active at the same time? Speaking about OEMs - I'm not directly responsible for cooperation with the OEMs, but to be honest, it's usually us coming to them with good ideas and them getting excited about it, rather than the other way round :) We're trying to use their expertise in UI design and user research to the benefit of all Ubuntu users. M. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Olá Mat e a todos. On Monday 16 March 2009 19:28:46 Mat Tomaszewski wrote: It's difficult for me (and I think for anyone) to consider statements like that a constructive dialogue. I'm the OP of this thread! I was the one who asked for an explanation of why the icon changed (without prior consultant of the ubuntu testers community) and if it was possible to redo. I also posted opinions from new users (latter agree to be the target public). If my statements dont always look as you would like them to look, place your self on my shoes where stuff i've been seeing in its place for 3 years all of the sudden changes, and all I get is: OEMs closed studies says so. :) There's that smile again. Unless your close to me, and I find you funny, most of the meaning of using it on a serious thread is lost. -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Olá Mat e a todos. On Tuesday 17 March 2009 09:59:21 Mat Tomaszewski wrote: - we have at least 3 types of network connections that should be represented by the appropriate icon: 1. Wireless 2. Wired 3. 3G 4. VPNs 5. Bluetooth threading Each of these has potentially 4 different states: - card present, but switched off - card present, but no connection - connecting - connection established (w/various signal strenghts for wireless and 3G) - Encrypted - Non-encrypted With all of this the WPA/WPA2 symbol was lost too Now I never know if I'm connected to a protected network or a Open one! -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Olá Mat e a todos. On Tuesday 17 March 2009 14:31:59 Mat Tomaszewski wrote: - why not show separate icons for all connection types in the panel? because gnome, kde, freedesktop all want to reduce the number of stuff on the notification bar. -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB http://BUGabundo.net signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
(``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo wrote: Olá Mat e a todos. On Tuesday 17 March 2009 14:31:59 Mat Tomaszewski wrote: - why not show separate icons for all connection types in the panel? because gnome, kde, freedesktop all want to reduce the number of stuff on the notification bar. That's great, in principle that sounds like a totally right way to go. Yet at the same time most people raise the need for a precise information about their connection status. One of the things we're debating on now is what the user *really* needs to see on his panel as a persistent indicator. One of the results of this debate is already visible in Jaunty, with messaging indicator aiming to replace all the various icons thrown in by different messaging apps. The next steps will inevitably include the N-M behaviours and icons, and it would be great to hear what the individual views on that are. Cheers, M. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
I'd suggest only showing the icon for the currently used connection (even if you're connected using several methods at the same time NM only uses one of them for the Internet, right?) and let placing the mouse over the icon display a bubble with more detailed information about all connections. Just an idea :). -- Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT) Ubuntu Developer. Debian Contributor. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
On Tuesday 17 March 2009 2:29:24 pm (``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo wrote: Olá Mat e a todos. On Monday 16 March 2009 19:28:46 Mat Tomaszewski wrote: It's difficult for me (and I think for anyone) to consider statements like that a constructive dialogue. I'm the OP of this thread! I was the one who asked for an explanation of why the icon changed (without prior consultant of the ubuntu testers community) and if it was possible to redo. I also posted opinions from new users (latter agree to be the target public). If my statements dont always look as you would like them to look, place your self on my shoes where stuff i've been seeing in its place for 3 years all of the sudden changes, and all I get is: OEMs closed studies says so. I thought he was saying that the OEMs agreed with you... -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
On Tuesday 17 March 2009 10:50:55 Andrew Barbaccia wrote: - The connection strength for wireless and 3G could be the current bars icon but with a 3G bubble in the corner. If that's too small then possibly different color bars would be sufficient? How about an icon that includes a generic cell phone (instead if 3G)? This icon could be used for the three related cases: 3G, EDGE and bluetooth modem (I only regard the third as an alias to one of the two previous, please corect me if I'm wrong). regards FF -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
(``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo wrote: Olá Matthew e a todos. On Thursday 12 March 2009 09:54:05 Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: The Design team has just discussed this and we agree it's confusing. The two-monitors icon sucked, but our first try at a replacement wasn't so hot. :-) We will have another go, considering the cross and slash possibilities proposed here, and we'll seek a UI freeze exception for 9.04 for a replacement icon. On tonight's Linux Class, I went and asked my students (most of them are using GNU/Linux for the 1st time, and systems have Ubuntu 8.10) what they thought about the update-notifier (and it was showing Critical updates) and the NM icon. Sure UM was confusing at 1st, but after explaining some used it latter to get a PPA update. The NM icon didnt made any of them (at least the ones who replied) confused, and only a girl had trouble finding the VPN setting. One user had trouble understanding why the icon changed from wired to areal icon once he connected to wifi, but 3 secs later just forgot about it, cause it worked. When I mentioned that the new icon would just be the areal one, most asked why?. Talking to Linux long(er) time users and mentioning the UM change (no easy icon, popunder window) they all get scared. I'll let you know more after next classes and our monthly LoCoTeam meeting. That's an interesting feedback, thanks. However, I would not treat Linux Class students as representative for the population of all potential Ubuntu users :) Of course they would not have any problem with the old icon, neither would you or I. I'm pretty sure they'll get used to the new icon very quickly, too. The request to change the icon came originally from various OEMs we cooperate with, backed up by their studies (not available for public, unfortunately). We'll now be very closely looking at all feedback we're getting for the new icon. I encourage everyone to keep their eyes open, too :) Many thanks, Mat -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mat Tomaszewski wrote on 07/03/09 13:17: Nicolò Chieffo wrote: I totally agree that it's confusing Is it confusing just because it's different to what you've been used to? I know it's not a justification, but OSX have been using exactly the same metaphor for many years now and it seems to be working out very well. As a couple of small corrections to this, it's not a metaphor, Agreed :) and it's not what OS X does. OS X shows 0 signal icon for both no signal and disconnected. Not sure what I've missed? M. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Olá Mat e a todos. On Monday 16 March 2009 10:58:55 Mat Tomaszewski wrote: That's an interesting feedback, thanks. However, I would not treat Linux Class students as representative for the population of all potential Ubuntu users :) Most of them are brand new users, using a GNU/Linux distro for the 1st time. It seems exactly the target ppl. The request to change the icon came originally from various OEMs we cooperate with So OEMs now count more then Community? Thanks, that was exactly what *we* wanted to here. -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
On Mon, 2009-03-16 at 14:24 +, (``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo wrote: ... On Monday 16 March 2009 10:58:55 Mat Tomaszewski wrote: ... The request to change the icon came originally from various OEMs we cooperate with So OEMs now count more then Community? Thanks, that was exactly what *we* wanted to here. I'm sorry to have to point this out, but this is the sort of attitude that doesn't bring us any further. Actually, we simply don't know the background here. For example, if these OEMs actually ran controlled experiments, they have hard data that, as far as I can tell, no one in the open community has. Unless we find a way to run controlled, repeatable experiments by ourselves, all we are doing here is bikeshedding, and hard data wins over bikeshedding anytime. Additionally, I don't think that mailing-list bikeshedding is the right way to design good interactive software, anyway. Canonical's design team is definitely paying attention to us (as we can see from their active participation in this list) but they are aren't making their decisions solely based on our input, which, in my opinion, is also the right thing for them to do. Best wishes, M. S. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
I agree that using the zero signal icon for no connection is really confusing. Is there some easy way to revert this on my system? -- Siegfried-Angel Gevatter Pujals (RainCT) Ubuntu Developer. Debian Contributor. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Hello Matthew, As a couple of small corrections to this, it's not a metaphor, and it's not what OS X does. The Design team has just discussed this and we agree it's confusing. The two-monitors icon sucked, but our first try at a replacement wasn't so hot. :-) We will have another go, considering the cross and slash possibilities proposed here, and we'll seek a UI freeze exception for 9.04 for a replacement icon. Thanks for raising the issue. Part of the problem is that your trying to merge two concepts into one. On the one hand you have Network Connection and on the other you have Online Status The first is what we use to connect to eth0 (a label that needs replacing) or connect to a wifi network, it's what you get with a physical connection. So an ethernet connection should show a filled plug icon (just like mac osx) and a wifi connection shows the signal strength. the disconnected icon can show the unplugged icon or the no wifi connection icon (on mac I thought it has a black line through it) The second concept is Online Status, a completely under served status. Are we online? Would the lay person grok that they are online from this icon or would it show that they are in fact sitting behind a paywall? I don't think it's as useful to equate network connectivity to online status. I think we may need two separate icons, or one of these newfangled status widgets and more robust NM APIs for giving that status to apps. Regards, Martin Owens PS, My ideal table of Statuses: 0:Offline 1:Network Connection 2:Router Visible 3:DNS Visible 4:HTTP redirects to router address 5:Search Domains Visible (i.e google.com) (assume your fully online) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Martin Pitt wrote: Mat Tomaszewski [2009-03-16 10:02 +]: OS X shows 0 signal icon for both no signal and disconnected. Not sure what I've missed? Even if that is really so, I really don't think that we ought to copy such confusions from OS X, Absolutely, hence the change we just made (also thanks to the feedback from this group) :) M. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
(``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo wrote: Olá Mat e a todos. On Monday 16 March 2009 10:58:55 Mat Tomaszewski wrote: That's an interesting feedback, thanks. However, I would not treat Linux Class students as representative for the population of all potential Ubuntu users :) Most of them are brand new users, using a GNU/Linux distro for the 1st time. It seems exactly the target ppl. If you're right, we'll soon find out :) The request to change the icon came originally from various OEMs we cooperate with So OEMs now count more then Community? No, but they provide a user reseach that we would not be able to conduct otherwise. Thanks, that was exactly what *we* wanted to here. I hope by saying *we* you mean *you*, or maybe other community members have already chosen their representative to speak for them? :) M. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:45:59 + Mat Tomaszewski mat.tomaszew...@canonical.com wrote: I hope by saying *we* you mean *you*, or maybe other community members have already chosen their representative to speak for them? :) Even with the smiley I think this kind of response discourages constrcutive dialogue and is not in keeping with the atmosphere we try to keep in Ubuntu (yes, I know this not something I always excel in either). Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Scott Kitterman wrote: On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:45:59 + Mat Tomaszewski mat.tomaszew...@canonical.com wrote: I hope by saying *we* you mean *you*, or maybe other community members have already chosen their representative to speak for them? :) Even with the smiley I think this kind of response discourages constrcutive dialogue It's difficult for me (and I think for anyone) to consider statements like that a constructive dialogue. and is not in keeping with the atmosphere we try to keep in Ubuntu (yes, I know this not something I always excel in either). :) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 14:45:59 + Mat Tomaszewski mat.tomaszew...@canonical.com wrote: (``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo wrote: Olá Mat e a todos. On Monday 16 March 2009 10:58:55 Mat Tomaszewski wrote: That's an interesting feedback, thanks. However, I would not treat Linux Class students as representative for the population of all potential Ubuntu users :) Most of them are brand new users, using a GNU/Linux distro for the 1st time. It seems exactly the target ppl. If you're right, we'll soon find out :) The request to change the icon came originally from various OEMs we cooperate with So OEMs now count more then Community? No, but they provide a user reseach that we would not be able to conduct otherwise. Thanks, that was exactly what *we* wanted to here. I hope by saying *we* you mean *you*, or maybe other community members have already chosen their representative to speak for them? :) M. Well, I guess I should say I agree most of the time with BUGabundo. Since he does state things, I see no point in jumping in with me too. Which, come to think of it, does make him my spokesman unless I speak up, does it not? Thanks. -- Charlie Kravetz Linux Registered User Number 425914 [http://counter.li.org/] Never let anyone steal your DREAM. [http://keepingdreams.com] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mat Tomaszewski wrote on 16/03/09 10:02: Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: ... and it's not what OS X does. OS X shows 0 signal icon for both no signal and disconnected. Not sure what I've missed? ... Yes, but Bugabundo's original complaint was about when wireless is off completely: The new icon is very deceiving, making me think I have my WiFi On, but with no signal. Mac OS X icon for wireless off: http://sfghdean.ucsf.edu/wireless/images/ucsf-clinical-mac/wifism01.jpg Mac OS X icon for wireless on but disconnected: http://www.its.ipfw.edu/wireless/images/mac/mac-open-internet-connection.gif. For Ubuntu it's a bit tricker, because we want to distinguish between (1) no connection with wireless off, (2) no connection with wireless on, (3) connected with wireless (at various signal strengths), and (4) connected with wired. Cheers - -- Matthew Paul Thomas http://mpt.net.nz/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkm+i60ACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecqEhACfZ6GWj7WE6DNGGeFld/ukctUd jtQAnjWA1QOL9mH2zeR2l3qwCR0c2nTP =oPz6 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
On Monday 09 March 2009 01:09:34 Darren Albers wrote: On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 6:45 PM, (``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo ubu...@bugabundo.net wrote: human-icon-theme (0.33.2) jaunty; urgency=low * Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon -- Kenneth Wimer kw...@ubuntu.com Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:36:53 +0100 Can this be reverted? The new icon is very deceiving, making me think I have my WiFi On, but with no signal. I rather have the old icon back. Thanks -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss Normally I wouldn't get involved in a usability dispute (Usability to me = Terminal) but my wife used my Ubuntu laptop and couldn't figure out why she couldn't get out when the wireless icon showed that way (I had it off from using an Aircard). If we don't want to use the normal icon please consider something more obvious like the bars icon with a slash through it? Right, testing has shown that we needed to work on this some more. I've now added a red box with a white X in it to denote the problem. Test it, once it is sponsored in main for Jaunty. -- Ken -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 6:45 PM, (``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo ubu...@bugabundo.net wrote: human-icon-theme (0.33.2) jaunty; urgency=low * Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon -- Kenneth Wimer kw...@ubuntu.com Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:36:53 +0100 Can this be reverted? The new icon is very deceiving, making me think I have my WiFi On, but with no signal. I rather have the old icon back. Thanks -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786 GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss Normally I wouldn't get involved in a usability dispute (Usability to me = Terminal) but my wife used my Ubuntu laptop and couldn't figure out why she couldn't get out when the wireless icon showed that way (I had it off from using an Aircard). If we don't want to use the normal icon please consider something more obvious like the bars icon with a slash through it? -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
I totally agree that it's confusing -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Nicolò Chieffo wrote: I totally agree that it's confusing Is it confusing just because it's different to what you've been used to? I know it's not a justification, but OSX have been using exactly the same metaphor for many years now and it seems to be working out very well. There was a significant problem with the old icon (2 monitors), it was *totally* mysterious (what 2 monitors have to do with network connection?) and we had many complaints. There were couple of other reasons for trying out this new solution: 1. The *only* way to connect to a wireless network (which is the essence of connectivity these days) is by clicking on the network icon. Therefore it should be something that users would associate with wireless networking. 2. Having 0 signal = not connected may not be true from technical perspective, but it is true from practical perspective. You have no signal, therefore you won't be able to browse the web. Click on the icon to do something about it (check what's going on, connect to a different network, etc). I appreciate critical voices, but please be constructive. One thing I'm sure of is that we will not bring back the old icon. :) Any suggestions as to how to improve the current situation are more than welcome! Many thanks, Mat -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
I appreciate critical voices, but please be constructive. One thing I'm sure of is that we will not bring back the old icon. :) Any suggestions as to how to improve the current situation are more than welcome! Ok, I will be constructive: we need to find a generic icon that represent all types of connections: the 2 monitors icon was introduced to look like windows I think. I have a question: when you connect to a GPRS connection, do you have the same icon as the wifi? if a common icon can't be found, the current one plus a red cross in the bottom right is ok for me. Now I'm doing a search at icons in gnome-look -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Mat Tomaszewski wrote: Nicolò Chieffo wrote: I totally agree that it's confusing Is it confusing just because it's different to what you've been used to? I know it's not a justification, but OSX have been using exactly the same metaphor for many years now and it seems to be working out very well. There was a significant problem with the old icon (2 monitors), it was *totally* mysterious (what 2 monitors have to do with network connection?) and we had many complaints. There were couple of other reasons for trying out this new solution: 1. The *only* way to connect to a wireless network (which is the essence of connectivity these days) is by clicking on the network icon. Therefore it should be something that users would associate with wireless networking. 2. Having 0 signal = not connected may not be true from technical perspective, but it is true from practical perspective. You have no signal, therefore you won't be able to browse the web. Click on the icon to do something about it (check what's going on, connect to a different network, etc). I appreciate critical voices, but please be constructive. One thing I'm sure of is that we will not bring back the old icon. :) Any suggestions as to how to improve the current situation are more than welcome! There *is* a difference between 0 signal and not connected, even from a practical perspective - 0 signal means you need to move closer to the access point, not connected means you have to initiate a connection - they're different failure modes with different practical action required. I agree that it's a problem that there is no obvious icon to represent the abstract concept of network. In absence of any better suggestions, I agree with Nicolò Chieffo's suggestion - a red cross overlaid on the existing icon would be a reasonable solution. Max. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
(``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo wrote: human-icon-theme (0.33.2) jaunty; urgency=low * Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon -- Kenneth Wimer kw...@ubuntu.com Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:36:53 +0100 Can this be reverted? The new icon is very deceiving, making me think I have my WiFi On, but with no signal. I rather have the old icon back. Not only deceiving but really wrong, IMHO. I have a WLAN USB stick which has no signal strength indication. How can I distinguish between WiFi on and network offline? Nils -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Max Bowsher wrote: Mat Tomaszewski wrote: Nicolò Chieffo wrote: I totally agree that it's confusing Is it confusing just because it's different to what you've been used to? I know it's not a justification, but OSX have been using exactly the same metaphor for many years now and it seems to be working out very well. There was a significant problem with the old icon (2 monitors), it was *totally* mysterious (what 2 monitors have to do with network connection?) and we had many complaints. There were couple of other reasons for trying out this new solution: 1. The *only* way to connect to a wireless network (which is the essence of connectivity these days) is by clicking on the network icon. Therefore it should be something that users would associate with wireless networking. 2. Having 0 signal = not connected may not be true from technical perspective, but it is true from practical perspective. You have no signal, therefore you won't be able to browse the web. Click on the icon to do something about it (check what's going on, connect to a different network, etc). I appreciate critical voices, but please be constructive. One thing I'm sure of is that we will not bring back the old icon. :) Any suggestions as to how to improve the current situation are more than welcome! There *is* a difference between 0 signal and not connected, even from a practical perspective - 0 signal means you need to move closer to the access point, not connected means you have to initiate a connection - they're different failure modes with different practical action required. It's a corner case (when your signal strenght is 0 you're likely to get disconnected anyway), but yes, agreed :) I agree that it's a problem that there is no obvious icon to represent the abstract concept of network. In absence of any better suggestions, I agree with Nicolò Chieffo's suggestion - a red cross overlaid on the existing icon would be a reasonable solution. +1 from me. Thanks! Mat -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
are you going to change also nm-connection-editor.png ? what is the offline icon in KDE? proposal 1: we have 4 kind of network devices in the system (eth, wifi, gprs, modem). It's not a good idea to forget the other icons. So the best proposal for me would be a 'morphing' icon that is before a cable + red cross (if an ethernet device is available), then the 0 signal wifi + red cross (if a wifi device is available), the the 0 signal gprs + red cross (if a gprs device is available), then a modem + red cross (if a modem device is available). proposal 2: Type --- Icon folder folder file file email mail trash trash network net? In fact the meaning of network is that your computer is connected with other computers creating a logical net. Simple proposal: one computer in the bottom right, over a net (drawn with dotted or dashed lines) [O.T. starts here] the 2 monitors icon was introduced to look like windows I think. Yes, and that kinda answers the question why we didn't particularily like it ;) Windows is not bad... it's just different. Apple is worse (philosophically speaking): closed source + closed hardware licences only + price really overcharged = devil (for me) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Alexander Sack wrote: On Sat, Mar 07, 2009 at 11:17:32AM +, Mat Tomaszewski wrote: Nicolò Chieffo wrote: I totally agree that it's confusing Is it confusing just because it's different to what you've been used to? I know it's not a justification, but OSX have been using exactly the same metaphor for many years now and it seems to be working out very well. I have no strong opinion about this, except that its a coin flip which trades new confusion by exising users with no confusion for mac users migrating to ubuntu. Personally, I think there is no clear win with this new approach. However, i think there is a better solution available and if we think that that solution is the right way to go, we might consider to skip the current 00_signal step and wait for the right fix; which could be like: 1. if no wireless card is available use the wired disconnected icon +1 2. if wireless card is available and you are not connected, use a searching icon if no APs are in reach/known or if there APs visible use a proper signal strength but indicate that we are not connected by using a grey/inactive appearence. I'm more in favour of a simple solution - 0 signal+red x for not connected and then various signal strengths when connected. Mat -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Olá Nicolò e a todos. On Saturday 07 March 2009 13:11:29 Nicolò Chieffo wrote: proposal 1: we have 4 kind of network devices in the system (eth, wifi, gprs, modem). It's not a good idea to forget the other icons. So the best proposal for me would be a 'morphing' icon that is before a cable + red cross (if an ethernet device is available), then the 0 signal wifi + red cross (if a wifi device is available), the the 0 signal gprs + red cross (if a gprs device is available), then a modem + red cross (if a modem device is available). I like the idea of the red cross! -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
Olá Mat e a todos. On Saturday 07 March 2009 11:17:32 Mat Tomaszewski wrote: Is it confusing just because it's different to what you've been used to? I know it's not a justification, but OSX have been using exactly the same metaphor for many years now and it seems to be working out very well. Never used a mac so i cant say, but i like the old icon, thats why i emailed the list in the 1st place! took me a few ours and reading the change log to understand why the heck my wifi was at zero, even though I hadnt connected it yet.. even restarted NM daemon and nm-applet to be sure. There was a significant problem with the old icon (2 monitors), it was *totally* mysterious (what 2 monitors have to do with network connection?) and we had many complaints. mysterious?? it works *very* well to me. are we starting another UM word war? why do u guys feel the need to change what is *already* great? Complains? can you give us one LP bug please? 1. The *only* way to connect to a wireless network (which is the essence of connectivity these days) is by clicking on the network icon. Therefore it should be something that users would associate with wireless networking. I use wired everyday... how about that.. how wait... where do I press now to setup a manual IP? I only see and antena icon enh? I appreciate critical voices, but please be constructive. One thing I'm sure of is that we will not bring back the old icon. :) Any suggestions as to how to improve the current situation are more than welcome! Earlier I saw one: red cross!!! -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
On Saturday 07 March 2009 6:17:32 am Mat Tomaszewski wrote: Nicolò Chieffo wrote: I totally agree that it's confusing Is it confusing just because it's different to what you've been used to? I know it's not a justification, but OSX have been using exactly the same metaphor for many years now and it seems to be working out very well. There was a significant problem with the old icon (2 monitors), it was *totally* mysterious (what 2 monitors have to do with network connection?) and we had many complaints. What about a greyed-out icon? -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
On Saturday 07 March 2009 11:15:29 am (``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo wrote: There was a significant problem with the old icon (2 monitors), it was *totally* mysterious (what 2 monitors have to do with network connection?) and we had many complaints. mysterious?? it works *very* well to me. are we starting another UM word war? why do u guys feel the need to change what is *already* great? Complains? can you give us one LP bug please? If you don't think of a monitor as being the entire computer (maybe they should be iMacs?), 2 monitors connected could just be a KVM switch. Also, that network monitor applet looks similar so it then it gets confusing for new users. They delete the notification area and nm-applet disappears. Then they try to add it back with network monitor applet and can't figure out why it doesn't show networks anymore. I'm sure you've seen this in #ubuntu before. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
On Saturday 07 March 2009 8:11:29 am Nicolò Chieffo wrote: are you going to change also nm-connection-editor.png ? what is the offline icon in KDE? It's an unplugged cable. -- Mackenzie Morgan http://ubuntulinuxtipstricks.blogspot.com apt-get moo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
On 07/03/2009 Mat Tomaszewski wrote: There was a significant problem with the old icon (2 monitors), it was *totally* mysterious (what 2 monitors have to do with network connection?) Two monitors represent two connected or disconnected computers (depending on other factors, e.g. the icon having a red cross on it). 2. Having 0 signal = not connected may not be true from technical perspective, but it is true from practical perspective. You have no signal, therefore you won't be able to browse the web. Click on the icon to do something about it (check what's going on, connect to a different network, etc). Everything these days can be argumented by saying that one should not take the practical point of view, but this change is extremely wrong, if you pass me the term. If there is no connection, there is no connection and I should try to connect. This I can do by looking at available wireless networks, or by plugging ethernet in. If there is low signal, I have to improve the signal, e.g. by moving the laptop. As usual, what I can say is do whatever you want with ubuntu, it's yours. However, I used to think that ubuntu was also mine, so let me spend a sentence on this. In my opinion, this change makes you think that you are connected and signal is low, even though you are not connected. Hence, you may not realise that you *have to* connect. If you travel a lot (as I do), it happens to have bad connections that sometimes don't work at all. Having a way to distinguish the two cases is very important in this case. Vincenzo -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
human-icon-theme (0.33.2) jaunty; urgency=low * Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon -- Kenneth Wimer kw...@ubuntu.com Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:36:53 +0100 Can this be reverted? The new icon is very deceiving, making me think I have my WiFi On, but with no signal. I rather have the old icon back. Thanks -- Hi, I'm BUGabundo, and I am Ubuntu (whyubuntu.com) (``-_-´´) http://LinuxNoDEI.BUGabundo.net Linux user #443786GPG key 1024D/A1784EBB My new micro-blog @ http://BUGabundo.net ps. My emails tend to sound authority and aggressive. I'm sorry in advance. I'll try to be more assertive as time goes by... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon
(``-_-´´) -- BUGabundo wrote: human-icon-theme (0.33.2) jaunty; urgency=low * Replacing network-offline (old version 2xmonitor) with NM wlan 0% signal strength icon -- Kenneth Wimer kw...@ubuntu.com Thu, 05 Mar 2009 18:36:53 +0100 Can this be reverted? The new icon is very deceiving, making me think I have my WiFi On, but with no signal. I rather have the old icon back. Thanks I agree, this really is an unpleasant regression. Totally counter-intuitive and misleading. The concept of being associated with a wireless network but having very low signal, vs. the concept of not being associated at all, are very much distinct and should not be confused in this way. Thanks, Max. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
