Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Just in case there's any question at the moment... HUGS! You ALL deserve them! -Paul -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
On Wed, Jul 15, 2009 at 11:33 AM, Neal Bussett wrote: > The disconnect is that the point of that project (User Groups Contacts) > is to ... > There's nothing personal here [...] The scope of that project has not changed - the only change was the removal of the link. It all comes down to many different kinds of assumptions about website viewers, group purpose and identity. This link issue doesn't seem solvable in email given the discussion so far and the 30+ comments. We have many OSCON items that could use all the attention that's been spent on this thread. Two examples: we need people who will be physically helping to sign up for times at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/OSCON2009 and if we hope to offer CDs at the booth to start burning them. There are only a few days left for all the preparations to come together. Neal and Nathan, I heard you are not able to physically help, right? Grant Bowman https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Larry Cafiero wrote: > I don't think this addresses what Paul's talking about, which seems to > be a recurring problem with this thread when either Nathan or Neil (or > both) respond -- the constant disconnect and redirection that happens in > what appears to be an attempt at grinding things to a halt over a > personality conflict (i.e., Grant proposed it, so we don't want to do it). > $NEW_UBUNTU_USER and $LOCO_PARTICIPANT will find the one that's > next-closest, if s/he so desires. The point here is that you go with the > best link you can find to put on your page. Is it going to have inactive > groups on it? Count on it. Is that a reason to exclude it? Absolutely not. The disconnect is that the point of that project (User Groups Contacts) is to connect our LoCo to LUGs, and that groups list was created as a by-product of that project, so we can keep track of LUGs we want to touch base with. That page was never designed to connect arbitrary people to LUGs (sending people isn't a bad thing, but that's not the goal of this project). The Groups link was a place to hastily put LUGs so we can then follow up on them *for* that project. As it stands now, however, this group link has overshadowed the project it exists to support and isn't even properly linked to from the projects page. Feature creep on a project level, if you will. If we want to discuss the redefinition of the UGC project's scope, then we should have a discussion about that, not just choose to do it and not tell anyone that you decided to fundamentally change the scope of a project. (Which is effectively the situation we're in currently.) There's nothing personal here, regardless of what you may have been told. > The fact of the matter is, you're not going to find a perfect LUG list, > and to base your argument on this, ahem, "fact" borders on ridiculous. Nathan was commenting that instead of spending time on our own private LUG list, people who want to create/contribute to one should do so in a proper venue, one where more people can benefit because it's not hidden away on a LoCo team's subpage of a subpage. It's all about scope, and again, keeping ourselves focused on what the LoCo (or specifically this project) is here to do, instead of turning it into a playground for pet-projects that don't necessarily belong. If we want to create an awesome-list-of-LUGs, let's do it properly. Let's contribute to the other LUG listings, or if there's no usable list site out there, *then* we'll look into creating one without whatever problems exist with the current ones. Does anyone have any suggestions for sites that we can spruce up? Or is the environment right now one where it would be better to start from scratch? Neal Bussett Ubuntu California -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
"On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Nathan Haines wrote in response to Paul Reiber: On Tue, 2009-07-14 at 15:42 -0700, Paul Reiber wrote: >> hrm... translation: "no, Grant (and everyone else)... 'cause I want it >>this other way" >I think Neal adequate described the reasoning behind the removal of the link, and he did so at Grant's insistence." I don't think this addresses what Paul's talking about, which seems to be a recurring problem with this thread when either Nathan or Neil (or both) respond -- the constant disconnect and redirection that happens in what appears to be an attempt at grinding things to a halt over a personality conflict (i.e., Grant proposed it, so we don't want to do it). Ludicrous arguments like this bear me out: Bill Kendrick wrote: > Is the giant LUG list over at Linux Online (linux.org) not sufficient? > (One nice thing about it, is that it seems to automatically ping groups > every year, to make sure information is kept up-to-date. Though, of course, > I'm not sure how may LUGs _do_ keep their stuff up-to-date there.) > And Nathan replies: "It's a perfect example of the difficulty of the problem. Cerritos LUG, which would have been the perfect one for me location-wise, has been dead for years--yet is still there." Perfect example? Are you kidding me? Oh, wait. I get your point, Nathan: If I find a LUG in my area that's no longer active, I'm going to immediately just give up on participating in the California LoCo. Shoot, I'm just going to bag the whole Linux thing and go back to using Windows. Hey, thanks for clearing that up. The fact of the matter is, you're not going to find a perfect LUG list, and to base your argument on this, ahem, "fact" borders on ridiculous. $NEW_UBUNTU_USER and $LOCO_PARTICIPANT will find the one that's next-closest, if s/he so desires. The point here is that you go with the best link you can find to put on your page. Is it going to have inactive groups on it? Count on it. Is that a reason to exclude it? Absolutely not. Then ask yourself this: What does it say about this group that spends so much time on a simple issue that could have easily been resolved with a simple compromise? And further, what am I -- as a LUG leader -- supposed to tell people who attend our meetings and ask about the California LoCo? Do I give them a caveat based on my experience -- "Well, the community doesn't have a decision-making mechanism as such, but decides issues by having a couple of uncompromising people grind down opposition to what they want to do (or what they don't want to do) until it dies away" -- or do I just point them in the direction of the LoCo and let them find out for themselves? (Helpful hint: This is NOT how you keep members active. Just sayin'.) This is just one simple link on a page or series of pages, folks. A simple, inauspicious link which, if it's on a wiki, can just be the word "here" at the end of a sentence like, "To see a list of Linux User Groups in your area, click here." I have an idea: Let's try acting our respective ages going forward and let's bring some real arguments or debate in response. Larry Cafiero -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
> Is the giant LUG list over at Linux Online (linux.org) not sufficient? > (One nice thing about it, is that it seems to automatically ping groups > every year, to make sure information is kept up-to-date. Though, of course, > I'm not sure how may LUGs _do_ keep their stuff up-to-date there.) > > e.g.: > > http://www.linux.org/groups/usa/california.html My take: it'd be awesome to include a link over to this resource , at the top or the bottom (or both) of the groups page in the loco wiki. To date I've refrained from much (any?) wiki-tending in the loco wiki. What I do bring is perspective, having tended a bunch of wikis over the years. Thus, the recent commentary. As Nathan mentioned, there are dead groups on there (and worse, ones that are worse than dead; full of pizza-joes and other takers, ready to suck new contributors dry until they turn away to nurse their wounds). So it is quite important, as Nathan also pointed out, that the loco's group list be a "working document" - hopefully identifying the loco team member who's liaising with particular LUGS, which projects (as in links to a wiki page for that specific project?) they're doing with those LUGs, etc. Re: what links need to be on the "header" included into all pages of the loco wiki: I think BOTH the projects page and the groups page deserve to be listed there. It's a big tangled web... sure... but that's OK so long as people can find their way around it and don't get shunted off into corners very often. All for now... hugs, -Paul http://reiber.org -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Bill Kendrick wrote: > Is the giant LUG list over at Linux Online (linux.org) not sufficient? > (One nice thing about it, is that it seems to automatically ping groups > every year, to make sure information is kept up-to-date. Though, of course, > I'm not sure how may LUGs _do_ keep their stuff up-to-date there.) > It's a perfect example of the difficulty of the problem. Cerritos LUG, which would have been the perfect one for me location-wise, has been dead for years--yet is still there. Even keeping things up to date is an unknown (although it appears a registered account would be sufficient to submit change requests). It might be a good idea for LoCo members who have the time to look into those groups to create an account and see if any of those listings need updated. I think it's pretty clear that an up-to-date listing is very non-trivial, and I certainly don't want the LoCo to have Yet Another Unreliable List. Not outside of the scope of coordinating our own efforts to reach out, at least. I believe that any list on the Ubuntu California wiki should be a working document used to keep track of who's monitoring which groups. -- Nathan Haines Ubuntu California Local Community Team -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 09:34:09PM -0700, Nathan Haines wrote: > I agree with Neal that the LoCo page is a tool for the LoCo to focus our > efforts. I've said it before: there needs to be a far better answer to > finding LUGs than currently exists, and I really wish the energy that is > being focused at misusing one of the LoCo's pages would be directed > towards creating a solution to the problem of how to find a local LUG or > contributing to the existing resources that Grant claims exists (in > opposition to my claim that I've yet to see a current maintained list). > I would support a link to such a resource from our wiki pages in a > flash--although probably not across each and every single page. I > jumped at the chance to be a distribution point for Bay Area LUG fliers > at OSCON. Is the giant LUG list over at Linux Online (linux.org) not sufficient? (One nice thing about it, is that it seems to automatically ping groups every year, to make sure information is kept up-to-date. Though, of course, I'm not sure how may LUGs _do_ keep their stuff up-to-date there.) e.g.: http://www.linux.org/groups/usa/california.html (In fact, LUGOD's own info is a little out of date, since we only hold meetings once a month, but also now hold social gatherings once a month, too.) -- -bill! Sent from my computer -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Paul Reiber wrote: > "why?" ...Wikis are dynamic things which should be be nurtured, not > pruned. Organizational goals shift like the sands of the desert. > Nothing's written in stone. > That's true. But wikis are just tools. It's there to facilitate contribution, not to imply that topicality or focus is out the window. > At least some of the goals some of our loco team members have include > making, maintaining, and promoting contact with other local linux > communities. > There was definitely a desire to do so, and so a page was set up to see if we could get volunteers to contact various Linux groups so that they would be aware of our presence and the services we offer (speaking, installfest support, etc.) > After all, "loco" does stand for local community, right? > Context matters. An "Ubuntu Local Community Team" is a group of Ubuntu advocates who advocate the use of Ubuntu within a local community. > If finding others in the CA linux community is something visitors to > the CA loco page don't want to do, they'll simply not click. Those > who do wish to learn about that aspect of who we are, will click on > that link, and hopefully learn about some new or ongoing group that's > nearby that they might want to attend. > That's rather my point: by deep-linking to a list of local groups, visitors *won't* learn more about that aspect of who we are. They'll simply find a list of local meeting places. If we link to the actual project page, at least they would learn about that part of the outreach we are aspiring to. It's surprising, then, that there appears to be an effort (not on your part) to keep that from happening. Thank you, Paul, for explaining your thoughts more clearly. I think that opens the possibility for further discussion. -- Nathan Haines Ubuntu California Local Community Team -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
"why?" ...Wikis are dynamic things which should be be nurtured, not pruned. Organizational goals shift like the sands of the desert. Nothing's written in stone. At least some of the goals some of our loco team members have include making, maintaining, and promoting contact with other local linux communities. After all, "loco" does stand for local community, right? If finding others in the CA linux community is something visitors to the CA loco page don't want to do, they'll simply not click. Those who do wish to learn about that aspect of who we are, will click on that link, and hopefully learn about some new or ongoing group that's nearby that they might want to attend. Regards, -Paul On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 9:34 PM, Nathan Haines wrote: > Paul Reiber wrote: >> The available of access to the LUG hierarchy/overview/whatever page - >> everywhere - is not only warranted, but called for in a big huge >> "common sense" sort of way. >> > Why is it warranted, and how does common sense call for it? (I wanted > to ask Christian the same thing but by the time I got home I was > distracted with packing.) > > Christian says: "it makes sense to have the groups link on every page to > help people extend this LoCo to their local Linux Groups." Why does > that make sense? The LoCo isn't a social club, and I think it would be > a huge mistake to try and transform LUGs into Ubuntu advocacy groups. > We're here to convince people to use Ubuntu. That's a huge contrast > with what LUGs tend to be, which is one of the endless variations that > can be found in a group of people who use Linux and meet regularly. > > I agree with Neal that the LoCo page is a tool for the LoCo to focus our > efforts. I've said it before: there needs to be a far better answer to > finding LUGs than currently exists, and I really wish the energy that is > being focused at misusing one of the LoCo's pages would be directed > towards creating a solution to the problem of how to find a local LUG or > contributing to the existing resources that Grant claims exists (in > opposition to my claim that I've yet to see a current maintained list). > I would support a link to such a resource from our wiki pages in a > flash--although probably not across each and every single page. I > jumped at the chance to be a distribution point for Bay Area LUG fliers > at OSCON. > > But the way the Group project subpage is being promoted--to the > exclusion of its parent page which Grant keeps unlinking--really baffles me. > > -- > Nathan Haines > Ubuntu California Local Community Team > > > -- > Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list > Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca > -- http://reiber.org -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Paul Reiber wrote: > The available of access to the LUG hierarchy/overview/whatever page - > everywhere - is not only warranted, but called for in a big huge > "common sense" sort of way. > Why is it warranted, and how does common sense call for it? (I wanted to ask Christian the same thing but by the time I got home I was distracted with packing.) Christian says: "it makes sense to have the groups link on every page to help people extend this LoCo to their local Linux Groups." Why does that make sense? The LoCo isn't a social club, and I think it would be a huge mistake to try and transform LUGs into Ubuntu advocacy groups. We're here to convince people to use Ubuntu. That's a huge contrast with what LUGs tend to be, which is one of the endless variations that can be found in a group of people who use Linux and meet regularly. I agree with Neal that the LoCo page is a tool for the LoCo to focus our efforts. I've said it before: there needs to be a far better answer to finding LUGs than currently exists, and I really wish the energy that is being focused at misusing one of the LoCo's pages would be directed towards creating a solution to the problem of how to find a local LUG or contributing to the existing resources that Grant claims exists (in opposition to my claim that I've yet to see a current maintained list). I would support a link to such a resource from our wiki pages in a flash--although probably not across each and every single page. I jumped at the chance to be a distribution point for Bay Area LUG fliers at OSCON. But the way the Group project subpage is being promoted--to the exclusion of its parent page which Grant keeps unlinking--really baffles me. -- Nathan Haines Ubuntu California Local Community Team -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
+1. Nathan, you recently asked me " If you have something to add to the discussion, please do." I can't say it any clearer than Christian is saying it. right here: " it makes sense to have the groups link on every page to help people extend this LoCo to their local Linux Groups" The available of access to the LUG hierarchy/overview/whatever page - everywhere - is not only warranted, but called for in a big huge "common sense" sort of way. We need to just get this fixed, and move on; it's not worth all the extra typing! -pbr On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Christian Einfeldt wrote: > hi, > > On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Neal Bussett wrote: >> >> If someone is interesting in getting involved in our LoCo, running off >> to make contact with a LUG isn't the best way to utilize that eagerness. > > This LoCo has no singular meeting place. It is the LoCo for the most > populous state in the US (California). So it makes sense to have the groups > link on every page to help people extend this LoCo to their local Linux > Groups. > > The Groups Link should really be present on every page in the wiki. > > -- > Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list > Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca > > -- http://reiber.org -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
hi, On Tue, Jul 14, 2009 at 3:12 PM, Neal Bussett wrote: > > If someone is interesting in getting involved in our LoCo, running off > to make contact with a LUG isn't the best way to utilize that eagerness. This LoCo has no singular meeting place. It is the LoCo for the most populous state in the US (California). So it makes sense to have the groups link on every page to help people extend this LoCo to their local Linux Groups. The Groups Link should really be present on every page in the wiki. -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
On Tue, 2009-07-14 at 15:42 -0700, Paul Reiber wrote: > hrm... translation: "no, Grant (and everyone else)... 'cause I want it > this other way" I think Neal adequate described the reasoning behind the removal of the link, and he did so at Grant's insistence. Several others have raised good points in favor as well as against reorganizing the user groups page to exceed their original scope, and whether to link to it on every single page of the wiki. If you have something to add to the discussion, please do. -- Nathan Haines Ubuntu California Local Community Team -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
hrm... translation: "no, Grant (and everyone else)... 'cause I want it this other way" Neal, when you removed the link in question in the first place... did you bother to ask others first? I'm not feeling the love here. -- http://reiber.org -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
On Thu, Jul 02, 2009 at 05:18:33PM -0700, Grant Bowman wrote: > I do not find this particular link or it's placement "arbitrary" in > any way as I hope has become evident. The "Get Involved" section is > very purposeful - to direct less active members, first timers and/or > "the public" to take action to "Get Involved" in the broader Open > Source or specifically our LoCo activities. That section is > intentionally "outward facing," inviting action and greater > involvement. The purpose of that section of the menu is to help people get involved in our LoCo, not the general FOSS community (disclaimers about one being a subset of the other apply). "I just read all about this awesome LoCo, now how do I help?" More generally, the purpose of the wiki is to organize the business of our LoCo in a concrete manner; it is not an attempt to organize the entire FOSS world, or even the entire Ubuntu world, just our LoCo (there are other venues that are better suited for the various aspects of these things). > Why every page? People often find a web page (wiki or otherwise) > through search results. Having the link on only one or a hand full of > pages would limit the exposure of Ubuntu users to other (hopefully > close by) Ubuntu users. The User Group Contacts project isn't about connecting Ubuntu users to LUGs or even to other Ubuntu Users; it's about connecting our LoCo to LUGs so we they are aware of the services we offer. > Some have mentioned that the purpose of the wiki differs from the > purpose of our LoCo. I don't know of any reasons why an artificial > distinction might be useful or helpful. The wiki is a tool of the LoCo, it is not a separate entity. We use it to accomplish a number of tasks that a website is useful for, and we're doing a disservice to ourselves by trying to make it into something it's not well suited for. Much like we use IRC and the mailing list for what they're useful for; no one's going to suggest we try and hold a meeting on the mailing list. > To those that don't live near any established User Groups, I would > invite them to create a simple User Group as a "meetup" at > www.meetup.com Starting a LUG in your area is great, but I really don't see how it's relevant to this discussion. > As the Groups page is intended to be crowd sourced by (hopefully) > active LoCo members and other contributors and because it directly > links (at the bottom) to similar user group lists it should not be > difficult to keep updated, especially as more active LoCo members step > forward to act as "Contacts." This also raises the visibility of the > LoCo without requiring additional organized LoCo activities and gives > a tangible way for new members to become more active. Many of these > benefits were outlined in the quotations from my previous email. [1] > My hope is this additional exposure to motivated Linux enthusiasts > will increase the rate of recruiting for LoCo activities. Every > volunteer group must address recruitment somehow, either actively or > passively. If someone is interesting in getting involved in our LoCo, running off to make contact with a LUG isn't the best way to utilize that eagerness. They'll be presented with questions they likely won't know the answer to, and the LUG will be left with a bad taste in their mouth. A good first impression that's a little delayed is better than a bad first impression. More importantly, this initial taste of the LoCo (even though it's not characteristic of most of our activities) could very well turn them off to the organization entirely if it goes poorly. Looking at it from the other direction: If I were someone in a LUG, I wouldn't want someone showing up and telling me about how friendly and helpful a LoCo can be, without actually knowing anyone in the LoCo. They'll be much more prepared after interacting with our LoCo for a period of time to become comfortable and familiar with what we're doing, what we have planned, and most importantly, they'll know us. And during that time, I guarantee they'll discover the Projects page filled with things to participate in. Neal Bussett Ubuntu California -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 9:57 PM, Christian Einfeldt wrote: > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Larry Cafiero > wrote: >>> As you might expect, I'm also looking forward to hearing from others on >>> the list. >> >> True that. Let's hear from others. > > I think the user groups link should be restored. It was clear and helpful. Neal, thank you for finally responding. Your and Robert's idea is in the exact opposite direction to the rest of the thread referenced by the subject line: a User Group link. From my perspective your silence and this alternative proposal are attempts to redirect and/or bury the specific issue entirely. Neal, as you were the one who removed the link on May 16th [1] I had hoped you would support your action. I have responded in detail to the arguments written against restoring the link [2] with no further replies. Looking over past responses a clear majority have written in favor of restoring the link. This is the closest thing to a vote that is presently possible. Grant Bowman https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-ca/2009-June/000650.html [2] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-ca/2009-July/000674.html -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
hi, On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:38 PM, Larry Cafiero wrote: > As you might expect, I'm also looking forward to hearing from others on >> the list. > > > True that. Let's hear from others. I think the user groups link should be restored. It was clear and helpful. -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Neal Bussett wrote: > Robert Wall wrote: >> I agree that the layout could do with changing, but I disagree that >> arbitrarily adding one of our several projects to that section is the >> way to do that. I'd be more inclined to change the "Get Involved" >> section to a "Projects" section, and there link all of the active >> projects that are on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects . >> The "IRC Meetings" link is a duplicate anyway, so we wouldn't lose >> anything. > > I think this is probably something that we should've come up with a long > time ago, and it'd be a boon to all our projects. Can you throw > together a mockup or two of what it will look like currently, and also, > perhaps, with a few other past project combinations? (for variety of > length, etc) I was thinking of something like https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RobertWall/CTMenu1 . I imagine that adding bullet points or something might help with the multi-line project names, but the usual asterisk syntax doesn't seem to play nice with the <> and single-line quirks in the menu. -- Robert Wall Web: http://www.rww.name/ OpenPGP key ID: 6AB3FC6C -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Robert Wall wrote: > I agree that the layout could do with changing, but I disagree that > arbitrarily adding one of our several projects to that section is the > way to do that. I'd be more inclined to change the "Get Involved" > section to a "Projects" section, and there link all of the active > projects that are on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects . > The "IRC Meetings" link is a duplicate anyway, so we wouldn't lose > anything. I think this is probably something that we should've come up with a long time ago, and it'd be a boon to all our projects. Can you throw together a mockup or two of what it will look like currently, and also, perhaps, with a few other past project combinations? (for variety of length, etc) Neal Bussett Ubuntu California -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Thank you to those that participated in this discussion. Unfortunately we do not have a consensus on this issue yet. One down side to healthy list discussion is that the list's daily volume increases, sometimes becoming overwhelming. I have just finished major editing of the Groups wiki page. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/UserGroupContacts/Groups lists the groups and has links at the bottom to other user group lists such as the one by svlug.org mentioned by Larry which I just added. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/UserGroupContacts/ (remove Groups from above link) explains the project and encourages others to help out by being a contact/liaison with a group that is local. To help clarify for everyone I have attached a .jpg of what we are talking about. The .jpg shows currently what the wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Menu looks like when included at the top of almost all the wiki pages used by the California team. The "User Group" link was in the Get Involved section with a link from the text "Local Meetings" to the list of groups at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/UserGroupContacts/Groups The link text "Local Meetings" was used previously but "User Groups" or an alternative link text might be more appropriate. I mentioned a few in my last email. [1] I welcome suggestions. Why every page? People often find a web page (wiki or otherwise) through search results. Having the link on only one or a hand full of pages would limit the exposure of Ubuntu users to other (hopefully close by) Ubuntu users. I do not find this particular link or it's placement "arbitrary" in any way as I hope has become evident. The "Get Involved" section is very purposeful - to direct less active members, first timers and/or "the public" to take action to "Get Involved" in the broader Open Source or specifically our LoCo activities. That section is intentionally "outward facing," inviting action and greater involvement. As the Groups page is intended to be crowd sourced by (hopefully) active LoCo members and other contributors and because it directly links (at the bottom) to similar user group lists it should not be difficult to keep updated, especially as more active LoCo members step forward to act as "Contacts." This also raises the visibility of the LoCo without requiring additional organized LoCo activities and gives a tangible way for new members to become more active. Many of these benefits were outlined in the quotations from my previous email. [1] My hope is this additional exposure to motivated Linux enthusiasts will increase the rate of recruiting for LoCo activities. Every volunteer group must address recruitment somehow, either actively or passively. To those that don't live near any established User Groups, I would invite them to create a simple User Group as a "meetup" at www.meetup.com. All it takes to begin is showing up consistently. This is the route Robert, Phil and I are taking in Walnut Creek with http://www.dvlug.org for our weekly Friday night 6:00 meeting. It has been small but quite rewarding with a new person showing up each week and fascinating discussions. Organized monthly speakers are nice but not an absolute requirement for a user group. In areas with more active groups this high standard makes it seem a requirement but it is not. In fact, creating physical subgroup LoCo meetings is formally encouraged for all LoCos. [2] Recommending "appropriate" placement on "appropriate" pages without concrete recommendations seems intended to redirect and/or bury the issue entirely. Specific suggestions would be helpful. Some have mentioned that the purpose of the wiki differs from the purpose of our LoCo. I don't know of any reasons why an artificial distinction might be useful or helpful. This exercise to get our group as Open Source Software advocates to help other OSS advocates feels "a little absurd" as Jack mentioned and overly complex for "ONE SINGLE LINK" as Paul mentioned (his emphasis), especially as there is ample space for the link. The specific link in the Menu wiki page costs us almost nothing and could yield great benefits. I welcome discussion. Grant Bowman https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam P.S. I welcome discussion, however please start a different email thread to discuss different, unrelated topics. [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-us-ca/2009-June/000650.html cites parts of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoFAQ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamHowto https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoWorkingWithOtherGroups https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoFAQ#My%20country%20is%20too%20big%20to%20have%20single%20meet-ups.%20What%20do%20I%20do? My country is too big to have single meet-ups. What do I do? We recommend that you encourage localised groups to meet up. So, as an example, in the UK LoCo team, there are proposed meet-ups in the West Midlands, Northwest, South etc. This a
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Did the LUGs definitely not get a booth in the other tent?? Bill Kendrick wrote: > On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 07:09:36PM -0700, Nathan Haines wrote: > >> I am, however, very happy and proud that we have a couple Bay Area LUGs >> who are providing fliers for our OSCON booth, and I'm sorry that our >> booth wasn't big enough to accommodate them. I'm hoping we can do more >> promotion in the future, but I think the best chance we have to promote >> LUGs is through conventions and hopefully on the podcast. >> > > That reminds me. I need to ping everyone who offered to volunteer, > and let them know it looks like person-power is not needed. Then figure > out what to put on a flyer, how to produce copies, and how to get it > to the Ubuntu Calif LoCo folks (you). > > (Just pointing out that nothing has really happened since we last spoke. :) ) > > -bill! > > -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 07:09:36PM -0700, Nathan Haines wrote: > I am, however, very happy and proud that we have a couple Bay Area LUGs > who are providing fliers for our OSCON booth, and I'm sorry that our > booth wasn't big enough to accommodate them. I'm hoping we can do more > promotion in the future, but I think the best chance we have to promote > LUGs is through conventions and hopefully on the podcast. That reminds me. I need to ping everyone who offered to volunteer, and let them know it looks like person-power is not needed. Then figure out what to put on a flyer, how to produce copies, and how to get it to the Ubuntu Calif LoCo folks (you). (Just pointing out that nothing has really happened since we last spoke. :) ) -bill! -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Hi All, I am rather new to Ubuntu-US-CA (and to running a LUG), but I thought I'd give my perspective on this issue. There has been a lot said so far; so, I won't try to comment on what everyone else has said. First, I have to say that I find the whole discussion a little absurd. It seems that it is pretty poor management practice (even if the "manager" is the whole group itself) to have removed the link and created a fuss. In any business or organization, I think you will find that you get the best results when you give your enthusiastic employees/volunteers space to be creative and to take some initiative. If we as group (or any of us in particular) try to micro-manage individual efforts, particularly when that individual is doing a good job spreading the word about Ubuntu and the LoCo, we will find that hardly anyone will be willing to put forth an effort, and not much will get done. In my opinion, Grant has been doing a great job, is enthusiastic, and deserves to have is work stand without every trivial change (which I think adding link to the page design is) being questioned. I personally think this whole discussion has done nothing but hold back further efforts and participation. Secondly, even if we are forgetting my above sentiments, I think the link on the menu (and hence every page) is perfectly reasonable. I also think a link to the podcast would be good as well. The site, as is, is a bit difficult navigate and links to important efforts should be included. As a new LUG maintainer, I think any advertisement from the Ubuntu LoCo page would be quite helpful, and I am not at all worried about people thinking my group is just an Ubuntu group - it is clear from our own site and the name LUG, that we are not. I can't imagine an LUG being offended by the Ubuntu LoCo advertising their group. But, hey, I certainly don't represent everyone. Secondly, I, as an Ubuntu user, would look for that type of information on my LoCo page (i.e. where can I get help locally). So, a prominent link clearly helps such a user coming to the site. Anyway, those are my thoughts. Feel free to ignore them if you guys feel (quite rightly) that I have yet to earn my Ubuntu LoCo stripes. -Jack Robert Wall wrote: > Hi everyone, > > On Wed, 2009-06-24 at 21:11 -0700, Paul Reiber wrote: > >> I could have mis-read this, but I believe we're discussing the >> existence of ONE SINGLE LINK in the "menu" portion of the wiki which >> gets transcluded onto many other pages. >> > > That's exactly correct. Those "many other pages" are all of the active > pages on the CaliforniaTeam wiki, including the homepage. Thus, anything > linked on there is rather prominent. > > >> From a layout perspective, there's no problem adding another link (or >> 2) in that section; it currently has only 3 lines while one neighbor >> has four and another has five. >> >> I look at the current "Get Involved" choices - "Projects" and "IRC >> Meetings" and find that lacking. >> > > I agree that the layout could do with changing, but I disagree that > arbitrarily adding one of our several projects to that section is the > way to do that. I'd be more inclined to change the "Get Involved" > section to a "Projects" section, and there link all of the active > projects that are on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects . > The "IRC Meetings" link is a duplicate anyway, so we wouldn't lose > anything. > > In other words, the whole section would be changed to look something > like this: > '''[[CaliforniaTeam/Projects|Current Projects]]''' > [[CaliforniaTeam/Projects/OSCON2009|OSCON 2009]] > [[CaliforniaTeam/Projects/UserGroupContacts|Contacting User Groups]] > [[CaliforniaTeam/Projects/CDSleeves|Ubuntu CD Sleeves]] > > ... and we'd add the Podcast when it gets on its feet, and other > projects as we start them. We don't generally have more than three or > four things going at once anyway. > > I note here the implied view that UserGroupContacts is a project with > the aim of contacting user groups to see how we can help them, whose > page contains information that helps volunteers for that project > organize and document who we've contacted. That implies that the > information should not be re-purposed as a page for the general public > about LUGs in California, because there are more appropriate places > online for that, and because that's outside the mission of the wiki. > > Considering that I don't think anyone's brought this option up before > (and that I didn't think it through much because I'm tired), I'd be > interested in comments about it :) > > ~ Robert > > -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Hi everyone, On Wed, 2009-06-24 at 21:11 -0700, Paul Reiber wrote: > I could have mis-read this, but I believe we're discussing the > existence of ONE SINGLE LINK in the "menu" portion of the wiki which > gets transcluded onto many other pages. That's exactly correct. Those "many other pages" are all of the active pages on the CaliforniaTeam wiki, including the homepage. Thus, anything linked on there is rather prominent. > From a layout perspective, there's no problem adding another link (or > 2) in that section; it currently has only 3 lines while one neighbor > has four and another has five. > > I look at the current "Get Involved" choices - "Projects" and "IRC > Meetings" and find that lacking. I agree that the layout could do with changing, but I disagree that arbitrarily adding one of our several projects to that section is the way to do that. I'd be more inclined to change the "Get Involved" section to a "Projects" section, and there link all of the active projects that are on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects . The "IRC Meetings" link is a duplicate anyway, so we wouldn't lose anything. In other words, the whole section would be changed to look something like this: '''[[CaliforniaTeam/Projects|Current Projects]]''' [[CaliforniaTeam/Projects/OSCON2009|OSCON 2009]] [[CaliforniaTeam/Projects/UserGroupContacts|Contacting User Groups]] [[CaliforniaTeam/Projects/CDSleeves|Ubuntu CD Sleeves]] ... and we'd add the Podcast when it gets on its feet, and other projects as we start them. We don't generally have more than three or four things going at once anyway. I note here the implied view that UserGroupContacts is a project with the aim of contacting user groups to see how we can help them, whose page contains information that helps volunteers for that project organize and document who we've contacted. That implies that the information should not be re-purposed as a page for the general public about LUGs in California, because there are more appropriate places online for that, and because that's outside the mission of the wiki. Considering that I don't think anyone's brought this option up before (and that I didn't think it through much because I'm tired), I'd be interested in comments about it :) ~ Robert -- Robert Wall Web: http://www.rww.name/ OpenPGP fingerprint: EF31 62BC 85B2 0566 7732 B0B4 7B88 E371 6AB3 FC6C signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Take it from someone who wants to get involved physically with a local group ( I live in El Monte, work in Lynwood), I really wish there was a group in my neck of the woods that meets consistently, or at the very least post there planed meetings timely so I can make an attempt to attend. It's for this very reason that I started to communicate with Grant as it appears to me he is passionate about this issue. Truly Ernest Rogers On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 9:11 PM, Paul Reiber wrote: > Guys... > This discussion, though only 2 hours old, is now 10 pages long. So > please read the following as attempts to put water on the fire, not > more wood. > > I could have mis-read this, but I believe we're discussing the > existence of ONE SINGLE LINK in the "menu" portion of the wiki which > gets transcluded onto many other pages. > > From a layout perspective, there's no problem adding another link (or > 2) in that section; it currently has only 3 lines while one neighbor > has four and another has five. > > I look at the current "Get Involved" choices - "Projects" and "IRC > Meetings" and find that lacking. > > I feel a page which identifies how people might locate local LUGS and > other resources where they might find Ubunteros in attendance would be > a good thing. > > Thanks for listening, > -Paul > http://reiber.org > > -- > Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list > Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca > -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Guys... This discussion, though only 2 hours old, is now 10 pages long. So please read the following as attempts to put water on the fire, not more wood. I could have mis-read this, but I believe we're discussing the existence of ONE SINGLE LINK in the "menu" portion of the wiki which gets transcluded onto many other pages. >From a layout perspective, there's no problem adding another link (or 2) in that section; it currently has only 3 lines while one neighbor has four and another has five. I look at the current "Get Involved" choices - "Projects" and "IRC Meetings" and find that lacking. I feel a page which identifies how people might locate local LUGS and other resources where they might find Ubunteros in attendance would be a good thing. Thanks for listening, -Paul http://reiber.org -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Nathan Haines wrote: > I'm not a big fan of "this is only my opinion" disclaimers in my own > messages, because I think in general people are adults and can handle > differing opinions. (In fact, in this particular instance, I'm not sure > we even do have substantial disagreements.) But the mailing list is for > discussion and I was ready to jump in once I got home from work. I'm > really glad you jumped in just as I was opening a new message window. Glad to have been of help, and I don't think we have substantial disagreements. I don't mention the "disagree/disagreeable" aspect to say that "this is only my opinion," but rather as a pretext to hopefully head off the remote possibility that this discussion may head south, as some recent discussions have on this list. As you might expect, I'm also looking forward to hearing from others on > the list. True that. Let's hear from others. -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Larry, > I'm pretty confident that future projects will work with LUGs whenever > appropriate and possible. The momentum we have going is > encouraging and > I don't see it stopping. > > > Agreed. Also, part of keeping the momentum going at times when we > might be at loggerheads -- like on this issue, for example -- it would > benefit us to keep in mind that we can easily reserve the right to > disagree with each other without being disagreeable to one another. > I'm not a big fan of "this is only my opinion" disclaimers in my own messages, because I think in general people are adults and can handle differing opinions. (In fact, in this particular instance, I'm not sure we even do have substantial disagreements.) But the mailing list is for discussion and I was ready to jump in once I got home from work. I'm really glad you jumped in just as I was opening a new message window. As you might expect, I'm also looking forward to hearing from others on the list. Regards, Nathan -- Nathan Haines Ubuntu California Local Community Team -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:35 PM, Nathan Haines wrote: > No, I don't think it should be on every page either, but that's what > Grant is advocating. I don't read it that way, but we're past that now. > In fact, I am thinking about what a dedicated page > should look like... but I'm also wondering if it would be better off in > a more general location and not confined to the California wiki pages. There are ways around the toil and labor that goes behind making such a page, if the effort is the issue. The LoCo might want to give some thought to just linking on an appropriate page or pages to another site that lists California LUGs. For example, you could ask the SVLUG folks if they'd mind the LoCo linking to their list of LUGs (there's is probably the best in the state -- whether that's saying anything is arguable), and I'd be willing to bet they'd be OK with that. > ... I really value our > LUGs--they're a social group in a way that a LoCo really isn't designed > to be, and I think that the LoCos are a wonderful way for users of all > Linux distros to remember what they have in common. Correct. The dynamic between LoCo and LUG is pretty clear and it works pretty well, at least where we're concerned in Felton. I'm pretty confident that future projects will work with LUGs whenever > appropriate and possible. The momentum we have going is encouraging and > I don't see it stopping. Agreed. Also, part of keeping the momentum going at times when we might be at loggerheads -- like on this issue, for example -- it would benefit us to keep in mind that we can easily reserve the right to disagree with each other without being disagreeable to one another. In that spirit, I welcome further discussion on this issue. Larry Cafiero -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Larry Cafiero wrote: > > For one thing, I don't think the link deserves to be on every single > page in the wiki. > > > I don't believe it should be on every single page of the wiki, but > you should have wiki pages where people who are using Ubuntu and want > more face-to-face interaction with other people using Ubuntu -- and > where will they find them? No, I don't think it should be on every page either, but that's what Grant is advocating. In fact, I am thinking about what a dedicated page should look like... but I'm also wondering if it would be better off in a more general location and not confined to the California wiki pages. > Another thing that concerned me since we first compiled the list > is that > there have been countless sites that exist to list LUGs and > events, and > not a single one of them is complete or maintained. > > > Not a single one? I'm going to assume you checked all of them. I've yet to see what that is. > I don't think anyone's asking for "every single page of the wiki" to > promote LUGs, but I do think it works in Ubuntu's best interest to > promote LUGs on appropriate pages, as I outlined in my earlier e-mail. That's pretty clearly what Grant's asking, but I think proper placement on the appropriate page is the best thing for any such link. I think you and I are in complete agreement there. I really value our LUGs--they're a social group in a way that a LoCo really isn't designed to be, and I think that the LoCos are a wonderful way for users of all Linux distros to remember what they have in common. I'm pretty confident that future projects will work with LUGs whenever appropriate and possible. The momentum we have going is encouraging and I don't see it stopping. -- Nathan Haines Ubuntu California Local Community Team -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 7:09 PM, Nathan Haines wrote: > > For one thing, I don't think the link deserves to be on every single > page in the wiki. If we're going to highlight anything on the wiki, it > should definitely be our own upcoming projects or events, since that is > the focus of the page. I don't believe it should be on every single page of the wiki, but you should have wiki pages where people who are using Ubuntu and want more face-to-face interaction with other people using Ubuntu -- and where will they find them? Oh yeah! LUG meetings -- then it would behoove the LoCo to put it up on at least some of them that pertain to activities. You say "on the wiki" Nathan -- tell me you have more than one wiki page, right? Another thing that concerned me since we first compiled the list is that > there have been countless sites that exist to list LUGs and events, and > not a single one of them is complete or maintained. If a dedicated site > can't do it, I don't have any confidence that we'll manage to and I > think that's a very poor sort of link to feature on every sort of page. Not a single one? I'm going to assume you checked all of them. > Grant likes to say "our target audience is all Ubuntu users in > California", which is a huge strawman and which I feel is an attempt to > justify including a few things that don't belong on the wiki. > Regardless of whom we are targeting as a resource, it is important to > remember and focus on being a resource about the LoCo. This is not > self-serving, it's simply the purpose of the wiki. While I think we > should help promote LUGs where appropriate, I don't think every single > page of our wiki is the right place to do so. I don't think anyone's asking for "every single page of the wiki" to promote LUGs, but I do think it works in Ubuntu's best interest to promote LUGs on appropriate pages, as I outlined in my earlier e-mail. > I am, however, very happy and proud that we have a couple Bay Area LUGs > who are providing fliers for our OSCON booth, and I'm sorry that our > booth wasn't big enough to accommodate them. I'm hoping we can do more > promotion in the future, but I think the best chance we have to promote > LUGs is through conventions and hopefully on the podcast. As am I. Larry Cafiero -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Larry Cafiero wrote: > I am in agreement with what Grant writes below -- nice work all > around, Grant -- but I'm especially in agreement in regard to > directing people to LUG meetings (which, ideally, will be properly > attended by Ubuntu LoCo members) because in the short, medium and long > run, it benefits Ubuntu and any other distro or FOSS program that > takes the reins on this issue. I'm in complete disagreement with what Grant writes. For one thing, I don't think the link deserves to be on every single page in the wiki. If we're going to highlight anything on the wiki, it should definitely be our own upcoming projects or events, since that is the focus of the page. Another thing that concerned me since we first compiled the list is that there have been countless sites that exist to list LUGs and events, and not a single one of them is complete or maintained. If a dedicated site can't do it, I don't have any confidence that we'll manage to and I think that's a very poor sort of link to feature on every sort of page. Grant likes to say "our target audience is all Ubuntu users in California", which is a huge strawman and which I feel is an attempt to justify including a few things that don't belong on the wiki. Regardless of whom we are targeting as a resource, it is important to remember and focus on being a resource about the LoCo. This is not self-serving, it's simply the purpose of the wiki. While I think we should help promote LUGs where appropriate, I don't think every single page of our wiki is the right place to do so. I am, however, very happy and proud that we have a couple Bay Area LUGs who are providing fliers for our OSCON booth, and I'm sorry that our booth wasn't big enough to accommodate them. I'm hoping we can do more promotion in the future, but I think the best chance we have to promote LUGs is through conventions and hopefully on the podcast. Regards, Nathan -- Nathan Haines Ubuntu California Local Community Team -- Ubuntu-us-ca mailing list Ubuntu-us-ca@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-ca
Re: [Ubuntu-US-CA] User Group Link
Hey, Ubunteros --
I am in agreement with what Grant writes below -- nice work all around,
Grant -- but I'm especially in agreement in regard to directing people to
LUG meetings (which, ideally, will be properly attended by Ubuntu LoCo
members) because in the short, medium and long run, it benefits Ubuntu and
any other distro or FOSS program that takes the reins on this issue.
Yes, I have a "vested interest" in this facet of what is written below as
one of the organizers of Felton LUG, but also my interest goes beyond just
the LUG. That interest lies in promoting FOSS in the greater scope of
things and making sure newcomers aren't confused about what Ubuntu is (or
what OpenSUSE or Fedora or Mint or OpenOffice.org is, for that matter) and
the parameters that organizations like Felton LUG work hand in hand with
groups like the California LoCo to uplift FOSS in general and [fill in the
blank with your favorite distro] in particular.
Having said this, Grant is right when he asks that a link to "local
meetings" or "get involved" be returned to the wiki in some form.
Larry Cafiero
On Wed, Jun 24, 2009 at 6:07 PM, Grant Bowman wrote:
> I have tried to emphasize what we agree on. I think that even if we
> differ in initial approaches, strategies or implementations we
> strongly agree on the most fundamental Ubuntu LoCo goals. I know that
> we can show humanity toward each other and work together guided by the
> Ubuntu Code of Conduct. http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct
>
> The link ("Local Meetings" under "Get Involved" on
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Menu) was removed May 16th,
> 2009. I feel a link with a different name should be put back. A new
> link will need to clearly identify to wiki visitors what is contained
> in the
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam/Projects/UserGroupContacts/Groups
> page while not misleading visitors into thinking "we" have local
> meetings. I think the danger of a misperception by visitors is low.
> The difficulty in typing this long URL and finding this information
> without a link (shown at the top of almost all CaliforniaTeam pages)
> is very, very high.
>
> Choices for the new link include "User Groups" (some groups do more
> than Linux & still talk about Ubuntu) "UG Meetings" or something else.
> I encourage hearing opinions both for and against restoring the link.
>
> I hope the descriptions & links below provide some relevant context.
>
> Grant Bowman
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CaliforniaTeam
>
> --
>
> In California there are many, many more Ubuntu users than there are
> LoCo team members. This is a very significant factor. The state of
> California is not only geographically large but the economic activity
> is hard to underestimate. Per
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California#Economy "As of 2006,
> California's GDP is larger than all but eight countries in the world."
> The number and size of Linux conferences held all over the state is
> tremendous. These include SCaLE, OSCON and many others. Linus
> Torvalds moved to our state in 1997 and lived here for many years.
> Through he moved to Oregon in June 2004 this should not detract from
> the important role California continues to play in the global
> technology sector.
>
> Many activities could be relevant/"in scope" depending on exactly whom
> we attempt to serve with our group's actions.
>
> If the target audience of our actions is all Ubuntu users within the
> borders of our state (or even all computer users in California), then
> for many people a physical meeting is much more "open" and accessible
> compared to virtual meetings using IRC. This will become increasingly
> true as Linux & Ubuntu adoption by mainstream computer users increases
> and the average technical skill of Ubuntu users decreases. Many quite
> technical people I meet have never used IRC or have not used it in a
> many years. As our mail list and IRC channel are the primary means of
> communication, this familiarity with the tools we use can be a barrier
> to entry for Ubuntu users to join us.
>
> If the target audience for group activities is "regular IRC
> participants" or "mail list contributors" or
> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-california/+membersthen
> activities will
> have a different focus.
>
> In thinking about how LoCos might choose to work with user groups,
> some links and quotes I find helpful are:
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoFAQ states "...Most importantly however,
> [a LoCo Team] lets people find other Ubuntu users near them..." Even
> if we do not play a direct role or think of user groups as "part of
> our group," user groups in California can and do help Ubuntu users
> connect with each other. I have seen this first hand. Computer users
> not familiar with user groups are often tremendously grateful for the
> help that is available that they did not previously know about.
>
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamHowto has
