Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-14 Thread Mnyb

Julf wrote: 
> I don't really understand the problem. Why would the FLAC material need
> to be transcoded?

If you aquire 24/196 dowloads to replace your mp3's .

Funny thing music bussines for downloads , you can buy total cr*p low
rate mp3's or total overkill hirez :) normal CD standard FLAC is less
common ?




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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-14 Thread Julf

s2kiwi wrote: 
> I feel nervous about using the SB via digital in there as all the FLAC
> material will need to be transcoded on the fly on the 'good' system
> which feels backward.

I don't really understand the problem. Why would the FLAC material need
to be transcoded?



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-14 Thread Mnyb

s2kiwi wrote: 
> I alos with you that CD is good enough for anything but extreme cases. I
> mainly only keep FLAC out of principle. Some of the early MP3's I had
> access to were terrible quality so I picked a lossless format as my
> standard to avoid such issues. In saying that half the FLAC's are off
> CD's with modern day 'maximum volume' mixing which has killed the
> dynamic range... but I digress.
> 
> My main concern concerns are not the raw resolution, but whether
> transcoding will introduce artifacts and the general sound signature
> (which is personal preference anyway). I think I'll give it a go and see
> :)

Just give at try , digital ouputs should be transparent .

And the SoX transcoding library oms uses is known to be good , it should
kot assert any particular signature . Unless you want to (its endlessly
tweakable ) .

Of topic if want to experiment with your DAG and rpi3 with a digital
output board can be fun.
You can then set squeezelite to output the maximum rate that the dac can
handle for any file and say set the volume -3dB while doing it if you
for example suspects that your dac does not handle intersample overs
properly or use esoteric filters like apodising.
Agread that could lead to endless tweaking for nothing . But a Pi can do
that if your inclined to try such things.




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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-14 Thread s2kiwi

Mnyb wrote: 
> SB3 supports 24/48 kHz .
> 
> But if you sync the SB3 in another place to your rpi3 it to will ouåuit
> 24748 anyway in those cases .
> 
> In most cases music is 16/44.1 anyway as most records are of this
> quality
> 
> My personal view better than redbook is debatable i was a stern believer
> in hirez for a decade . but the actual case is that CD is good enough
> for human hearing .
> Note that the actual master used for hirez release could be very
> different so it apples an oranges no guarantee which actually better.
> The real test downsample a so called hirez file yourself and try hear
> the diffrence :)

I alos with you that CD is good enough for anything but extreme cases. I
mainly only keep FLAC out of principle. Some of the early MP3's I had
access to were terrible quality so I picked a lossless format as my
standard to avoid such issues. In saying that half the FLAC's are off
CD's with modern day 'maximum volume' mixing which has killed the
dynamic range... but I digress.

My main concern concerns are not the raw resolution, but whether
transcoding will introduce artifacts and the general sound signature
(which is personal preference anyway). I think I'll give it a go and see
:)



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-14 Thread Mnyb

s2kiwi wrote: 
> So, the mental debate I've had going is this... The only place I have
> which would take a digital input is the main room. I feel nervous about
> using the SB via digital in there as all the FLAC material will need to
> be transcoded on the fly on the 'good' system which feels backward. I'm
> running dual amps into some sensitive EPOS speakers so I'd really like
> the best quality... or am I over thinking that. Will a CD quality stream
> on the SB2 via digital be worse/better/the same as an RCA connected
> Hifiberry DAC? Will I even notice?
> 
> Writing this I suspect it'll come down to the sound signatures of the
> various devices and how they work together, so I'll just have to get an
> optical cable and give it a go...?

SB3 supports 24/48 kHz .

But if you sync the SB3 in another place to your rpi3 it to will ouåuit
24748 anyway in those cases .

In most cases music is 16/44.1 anyway as most records are of this
quality

My personal view better than redbook is debatable i was a stern believer
in hirez for a decade . but the actual case is that CD is good enough
for human hearing .
Note that the actual master used for hirez release could be very
different so it apples an oranges no guarantee which actually better.
The real test downsample a so called hirez file yourself and try hear
the diffrence :)




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
MeridianDSP5200 MeridianDSP5200HC 2 xMeridianDSP3100 +Rel Stadium 3
sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-14 Thread s2kiwi

Mnyb wrote: 
> Yes that's the cap problem there are treads with pictures .
> It has digital outs these will be unaffected by this problem that only
> affects the analog out. Is there a zone where something should hook up
> to a HT reciever or DAC .
> 

So, the mental debate I've had going is this... The only place I have
which would take a digital input is the main room. I feel nervous about
using the SB via digital in there as all the FLAC material will need to
be transcoded on the fly on the 'good' system which feels backward. I'm
running dual amps into some sensitive EPOS speakers so I'd really like
the best quality... or am I over thinking that. Will a CD quality stream
on the SB2 via digital be worse/better/the same as an RCA connected
Hifiberry DAC? Will I even notice?

Writing this I suspect it'll come down to the sound signatures of the
various devices and how they work together, so I'll just have to get an
optical cable and give it a go...?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-13 Thread Mnyb

s2kiwi wrote: 
> So the bit I didn't mention is one channel seems to have blown on the
> SB3 (and I don't have the skills to diagnose/replace what I assume will
> be a dodgy cap) so I was limited where in the house I could use it
> anyway (as it'll have to be mono only).

Yes that's the cap problem there are treads with pictures .
It has digital outs these will be unaffected by this problem that only
affects the analog out. Is there a zone where something should hook up
to a HT reciever or DAC .

If you retire it sell it as spare parts on this forum , someone would
probably pick it up and repair it.




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
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server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-13 Thread pippin

Oh, ok, now THAT is a reason to retire it, indeed.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-13 Thread s2kiwi

pippin wrote: 
> Really, don't . All of this is not a problem and the SB3 is a really
> nice player. Very reliable ne good sound.

So the bit I didn't mention is one channel seems to have blown on the
SB3 (and I don't have the skills to diagnose/replace what I assume will
be a dodgy cap) so I was limited where in the house I could use it
anyway (as it'll have to be mono only).



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-13 Thread pippin

Really, don't . All of this is not a problem and the SB3 is a really
nice player. Very reliable ne good sound.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-13 Thread s2kiwi

Given all the various feedback, I think I'm just going to retire the SB3
out of the mix entirely. 

For the sake a Pi Zero + DAC I think it'll just make everything simpler
to be running on similar hardware :)

Thanks guys!



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-13 Thread Julf

drmatt wrote: 
> I was looking forward to having a separate 5ghz WiFi at home, then I
> noticed it doesn't go through walls as well as 2.4ghz... and now I find
> i actually don't use it much..

I agree, it doesn't go through walls as well, but when you have 35
neighboring networks, you still appreciate 5 GHz...



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-13 Thread drmatt

I was looking forward to having a separate 5ghz WiFi at home, then I
noticed it doesn't go through walls as well as 2.4ghz... and now I find
i actually don't use it much..



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-13 Thread Julf

drmatt wrote: 
> Well that's on the assumption that all the Pi are wired.

Or on a 5 GHz wireless network.



"To try to judge the real from the false will always be hard. In this
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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-13 Thread drmatt

Well that's on the assumption that all the Pi are wired. Maybe I missed
that statement. The LMS server would be sending 9 times that stream out,
which still isn't much in reality I agree, about 7 Mbit/s.

Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-13 Thread pippin

But if the SB3 is alone on its 2.4GHz network, where's the problem?
Still enough bandwidth to stream HD video so why not 48kHz FLAC?

We are talking about 750kbit/s here. If you don't get that out of a WiFi
network then it's so broken that even the control connection will
probably no longer be stable.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-13 Thread drmatt

Lame encoding a single stream for a single group of players will run
fine on a Pi. If you want separate streams all separately encoded then
you might run into trouble. I might suggest setting a bandwidth limit on
the SB3 to force stepping down the bitrate when it joins the group. Then
unsync that one and LMS will drop back to sending flac everywhere.

Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-13 Thread pippin

Don't do that. FLAC is fine and you've got enough bandwidth unless you
do crazy stuff like streaming 384kHz sample rate material and such.
Transcoding to MP3 takes a lot of CPU power and will likely create more
issues than it solves.
FLAC is perfect for streaming.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-13 Thread s2kiwi

Brilliant thanks DrMatt, I appreciate the help. 

The reality is that while FLAC is total overkill for 7 or the 8 zones,
it is how my music is stored. Part of why I'm trying to get my head
around this is so I know what will happen under different scenarios. 

Based on this, if I place the SB3 to drive the hallway, it'll only be
used when lots of the house is also being used and we are on the go...
It'll then force transcoding and significantly reduce the bandwidth
needed across the house when lots of players are running. 

Then when the kids go to bed and the hall/bedrooms/outside are off I can
sit in the lounge and listen to FLAC on the proper system. 

I was going to use the cheaper DAC on a pi to trigger the transcoding,
but now I know that won't work :) 

Sound like a plan?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-13 Thread drmatt

s2kiwi wrote: 
> I'm not sure I understand that comment on the software stack vs
> hardware...
> 
> Do you meant that (ignoring the SB3) running Squeezelite on the Pi's
> means they will all appear to the server as being able to handle
> basically anything... and the Pi will handle any codec downgrading
> needed? Meaning all the other PI's will still play at the better
> quality?
> 
> Or will they present the soundcard limitation back to the server and
> it'll downgrade everything.
> 
> (sorry for the n00b Q's)
Ok fair question. To provide more details;

- the software (squeezelite) is the same on all the Pis so they all
offer the same file formats natively supported.
- the different hardware DACs only restricts the maximum sample rate and
bits-per-sample. I.e. 96khz/24bit. All will be more than capable of
playing CD audio uncompressed (44k/16b).

So when you sync them all LMS will find the lowest common denominator
of:
- the source file or stream's format, resolution and bitrate
- each player's supported format, resolution and bitrate.

The default is for LMS to provide the raw source to all players
unmodified, assuming that all players have told it they can play that
format, resolution and bitrate. End points won't do resampling or
transcoding, LMS will produce ONE stream for the whole group in whatever
format, resolution and bitrate drops out of the above process.

As I said, the wildcard is the SB3. Does it support MP3 or flac? I don't
remember. If not you may find LMS being forced to stream full rate PCM
audio to all players at the same time. You can do the maths on that!

Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-12 Thread Mnyb

s2kiwi wrote: 
> I'm running a dedicated linux 2.4Gz machine (ethernet connected) for the
> LMS so no problems there.
> 
> What about if the SB3 isn't in the group - will everything just run at
> the native file stream and the Pi will do the downgrading where needed
> (or does the Pi tell the server the hardware capabilities)?

Good to hear i run annintel nuc nowadays as server ( time to edit My sig
)

For the other Q i havent any USB DAC's to try with it's a big maybe from
me and i do buy try to buy downloads <24/96 so i have very few 24/192 or
"better" ( as I find them pointless) that would be transcoded by one of
My rpi3 as ive use that for My main meridian rig and ive set up
squeezelite to do 24/96 (-3db) for everything there as it handles 24/96
max .

These are kind of fringe cases :) serving 24/192kHz synced to dozens of
players .

Try to not fiddle with LMS so that it sends PCM/WAV to all players
instead of FLAC , if you just don't meddle with the file types settings
your good .
It's a popular myth that WAv sounds better but you basically gets double
the bandwith requirements and it's usually not a problem excepts you
wants to sync 9 players and FLAC uses much less bandwith and player
buffers will last longer all works in your favour .




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: Touch + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)
iPad1 with iPengHD & SqueezePad
(spares Touch, SB3, reciever ,controller )
server HP proliant micro server N36L with ClearOS Linux

http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-12 Thread s2kiwi

Mnyb wrote: 
> 
> But the general case is still that player report thier capabilty to the
> server and servers has to come up with a streams that fits all in the
> sync group .
> 
> So if the SB3 is in the sync group . the server has to feed all an 24/48
> stream . But the transcoding load is on the LMS server machine
> 

I'm running a dedicated linux 2.4Gz machine (ethernet connected) for the
LMS so no problems there.

What about if the SB3 isn't in the group - will everything just run at
the native file stream and the Pi will do the downgrading where needed
(or does the Pi tell the server the hardware capabilities)?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-12 Thread Mnyb

Could be a potential problem i LMS also runs on the PI . Is LMS running
elsewhere it handles the transcoding on that system ( and thats systems
limitiations apply ) .

PI can transcode just fine but if several separate needs arise to older
players etc or if you use some obscure formats , ie in cases where you
don't sync it migth not have the capacity .

For it's own needs it's fast enough .

But the general case is still that player report thier capabilty to the
server and servers has to come up with a streams that fits all in the
sync group .

So if the SB3 is in the sync group . the server has to feed all an 24/48
stream . But the transcoding load is on the LMS server machine

And yes wifi can be a limiting factor especially when it's not good as
in rpi3 they are known for problems with thier internal wifi .

A good safe starting point is when the LMS server runs on robust fast
enough system wired to your network .
If a problem arise with one player you can probably find a workaround.




Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
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Misc use: Radio (with battery)
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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-12 Thread s2kiwi

drmatt wrote: 
> Codec support on the Pis depends on the software stack not hardware, and
> the SB3 is likely to be your limiting factor in terms of codec support
> anyway.
> 
> And yes if you sync all players and one or more of them has a playback
> bitrate limit applied then the whole group will receive the same bitrate
> limited stream. LMS will generally calculate the common capability of a
> group and use that.

I'm not sure I understand that comment on the software stack vs
hardware...

Do you meant that (ignoring the SB3) running Squeezelite on the Pi's
means they will all appear to the server as being able to handle
basically anything... and the Pi will handle any codec downgrading
needed? Meaning all the other PI's will still play at the better
quality?

Or will they present the soundcard limitation back to the server and
it'll downgrade everything.

(sorry for the n00b Q's)



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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-12 Thread drmatt

Codec support on the Pis depends on the software stack not hardware, and
the SB3 is likely to be your limiting factor in terms of codec support
anyway.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A3003 using Tapatalk



--
Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with
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Re: [SlimDevices: Unix] Transcoding requirements on a Pi?

2017-06-12 Thread pippin

There is no need to transcode at all if you are playing to a Pi.
The resampling from 192 kHz to 48 kHz shouldn't be a problem either, the
Pi only has to do it for its own player.



---
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and
Logitech UE Smart Radio as well as iPeng Party, the free Party-App, 
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*New: iPeng 9, the Universal App for iPhone, iPad and Apple Watch*

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