RE: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
Good Points.. One thing I might add is that the Title mentioned J2EE w Struts vs .Net and I don't think this is a fair comparison. Struts has a steep learning curve but when used you have a good MVC type model with all the benefits. IMHO (I'm also 98% J2EE) With .Net Out of the box, you wont get all of the MVC like qualities and can create really messy apps. If you want MVC you need to get one of their code blocks www.microsoft.com/patterns . Need logging..you need another code block, want good exception handling..another code block. Once you add all these in, the learning curve goes up for .Net . I see things being more equal at that point. Go to apache and download logging, etc or go to /patterns and download blocks..its roughly the same. You then begin to rely on implementing good design patterns in either app just like someone else mentioned. As far as the IDE, I've used VS for our few .Net apps and for your first iteration on a page I haven't seen anything faster. The widgets etc are fairly nice. Paging, Sorting etc isn't for free but close. In my limited experience, when I really need to get control of the object (i.e. change a grid for example in a very customized way ) I end up pulling my hair out. I end up using a repeater( a c:forEach type tag) and at that point you're on level ground again. However I expect when the next version of VS comes out ( wigby or something like that) it will make binding etc even easier. I would be interested to hear opinions regarding gui apps and the choice of product if people think RIA can help in this area etc. Burke -Original Message- From: Frank Zammetti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET As someone who is 98% a J2EE developer but has done two reasonably complex .Net web projects... Forget comparing the two for a moment and just look at .Net by itself... There's not too much bad to say about it on it's own. Microsoft has frankly put out something that is technically a fine piece of work. SO FAR it has proven to be relatively stable and even secure, no worse than Java was at first anyway, and better in some ways. As far as ease of use, I personally haven't used Visual Studio.Net much, I prefer being closer to the metal, so to speak (in this case, that means doing mostly command line work and using UltraEdit, just as I do my Java development). I think you do get the trained monkey symdrome to a degree when VS.Net is in the mix, but that's not automatically true. Design patterns can and are realized in .Net just like in J2EE. In short... If J2EE didn't exist, .Net would be an excellent solution. Yes, there is obviously vendor lock-in, and yes you have to be worried about security and what might be found down the road (so far so good though). Performance is excellent, stability is excellent, and so on. Now, in terms of comparisons... J2EE allows you more flexibility certainly in terms of vendor support. J2EE has I think more of a community around it and more projects that can solve a multitide of problems. I think it is a bit easier and more natural to design in a cleaner and logical manner with J2EE than with .Net. I think .Net wins in tool maturity because I've yet to see anything that matches VS.Net overall (this is a highly debateable point to be sure). J2EE has had more time to get the kinks worked out and it's currently a very mature platform (although .Net out of the gate was considerably further along than Java was at the start, J2EE is still ahead). .Net gives you some flexibility in terms of language support, although I think this is a bit overrated because even in the .Net shots I'm aware of they have generally standardized on one language or another (usually C#). True, there are some other language implemented in the JVM, but generally speaking it's a Java-only world. J2EE might have the edge in terms of developing distributed applications, although I will say that my opinion is that even today with all the strides that have been made over the past year, .Net is still a superior platform for Web Services (interoperability issues aside, which aren't small concerns in some cases). Overall, anyone that says J2EE is FAR superior to .Net, or anyone that says the opposite, is *probably* a zealot one way or the other and not really worth listening to. Anyone with an objective opinion who doesn't let their hatred of Redmond get in the way will generally say that the two are at least comperable in most ways. Hate MS all you want, but they really have done a great engineering job with .Net... Whether it's better than J2EE is vertainly up for debate (my opinion: I still give the Jave world the nod, but not by a huge margin). Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies www.omnytex.com From: Vic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply
R: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
Hi, M$ had done a good job with .Net because they copied ideas form Java/J2EE! :-) BR /Amleto -Messaggio originale- Da: Nail, Evan Burke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Inviato: martedì 14 settembre 2004 14.55 A: Struts Users Mailing List Oggetto: RE: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Good Points.. One thing I might add is that the Title mentioned J2EE w Struts vs .Net and I don't think this is a fair comparison. Struts has a steep learning curve but when used you have a good MVC type model with all the benefits. IMHO (I'm also 98% J2EE) With .Net Out of the box, you wont get all of the MVC like qualities and can create really messy apps. If you want MVC you need to get one of their code blocks www.microsoft.com/patterns . Need logging..you need another code block, want good exception handling..another code block. Once you add all these in, the learning curve goes up for .Net . I see things being more equal at that point. Go to apache and download logging, etc or go to /patterns and download blocks..its roughly the same. You then begin to rely on implementing good design patterns in either app just like someone else mentioned. As far as the IDE, I've used VS for our few .Net apps and for your first iteration on a page I haven't seen anything faster. The widgets etc are fairly nice. Paging, Sorting etc isn't for free but close. In my limited experience, when I really need to get control of the object (i.e. change a grid for example in a very customized way ) I end up pulling my hair out. I end up using a repeater( a c:forEach type tag) and at that point you're on level ground again. However I expect when the next version of VS comes out ( wigby or something like that) it will make binding etc even easier. I would be interested to hear opinions regarding gui apps and the choice of product if people think RIA can help in this area etc. Burke -Original Message- From: Frank Zammetti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET As someone who is 98% a J2EE developer but has done two reasonably complex .Net web projects... Forget comparing the two for a moment and just look at .Net by itself... There's not too much bad to say about it on it's own. Microsoft has frankly put out something that is technically a fine piece of work. SO FAR it has proven to be relatively stable and even secure, no worse than Java was at first anyway, and better in some ways. As far as ease of use, I personally haven't used Visual Studio.Net much, I prefer being closer to the metal, so to speak (in this case, that means doing mostly command line work and using UltraEdit, just as I do my Java development). I think you do get the trained monkey symdrome to a degree when VS.Net is in the mix, but that's not automatically true. Design patterns can and are realized in .Net just like in J2EE. In short... If J2EE didn't exist, .Net would be an excellent solution. Yes, there is obviously vendor lock-in, and yes you have to be worried about security and what might be found down the road (so far so good though). Performance is excellent, stability is excellent, and so on. Now, in terms of comparisons... J2EE allows you more flexibility certainly in terms of vendor support. J2EE has I think more of a community around it and more projects that can solve a multitide of problems. I think it is a bit easier and more natural to design in a cleaner and logical manner with J2EE than with .Net. I think .Net wins in tool maturity because I've yet to see anything that matches VS.Net overall (this is a highly debateable point to be sure). J2EE has had more time to get the kinks worked out and it's currently a very mature platform (although .Net out of the gate was considerably further along than Java was at the start, J2EE is still ahead). .Net gives you some flexibility in terms of language support, although I think this is a bit overrated because even in the .Net shots I'm aware of they have generally standardized on one language or another (usually C#). True, there are some other language implemented in the JVM, but generally speaking it's a Java-only world. J2EE might have the edge in terms of developing distributed applications, although I will say that my opinion is that even today with all the strides that have been made over the past year, .Net is still a superior platform for Web Services (interoperability issues aside, which aren't small concerns in some cases). Overall, anyone that says J2EE is FAR superior to .Net, or anyone that says the opposite, is *probably* a zealot one way or the other and not really worth listening to. Anyone with an objective opinion who doesn't let their hatred of Redmond get in the way will generally say that the two are at least comperable in most ways. Hate MS all you want, but they really have done a great engineering job with .Net
RE: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
-Original Message- From: Nail, Evan Burke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Good Points.. One thing I might add is that the Title mentioned J2EE w Struts vs .Net and I don't think this is a fair comparison. Struts has a steep learning curve but when used you have a good MVC type model with all the benefits. Steep! Struts is much easier than Hibernate to learn. It is the web technology foundation JSP / JSF / Design Patterns / HTTP technology that is really hard for the beginner. Why is build to this way instead of that way? What is Model 2 architecture, plus all the other rigourmorale of server side Java and marketing people bundled together in a witch's brew. IMHO (I'm also 98% J2EE) With .Net Out of the box, you wont get all of the MVC like qualities and can create really messy apps. If you want MVC you need to get one of their code blocks www.microsoft.com/patterns . Need logging..you need another code block, want good exception handling..another code block. Once you add all these in, the learning curve goes up for .Net . I see things being more equal at that point. Go to apache and download logging, etc or go to /patterns and download blocks..its roughly the same. You then begin to rely on implementing good design patterns in either app just like someone else mentioned. Interesting stuff. I was briefly looking at Mono Development book last night. The open source of .Net is way behind Java equivalent. What is the equivalent of Jakarta on .Net? If the Mono environment takes off on GNU / Linux / GNOME then we could see an avalanche of stuff written for C#/.Net/Mono in future. It is, however, a big if. Only time will tell. As far as the IDE, I've used VS for our few .Net apps and for your first iteration on a page I haven't seen anything faster. The widgets etc are fairly nice. Paging, Sorting etc isn't for free but close. In my limited experience, when I really need to get control of the object (i.e. change a grid for example in a very customized way ) I end up pulling my hair out. I end up using a repeater( a c:forEach type tag) and at that point you're on level ground again. However I expect when the next version of VS comes out ( wigby or something like that) it will make binding etc even easier. WIth the MONO and GTK assembly(?) you can extend/subclass a GTK widget and create your UI. GTK/GNOME is definitely open source. I agree that a lot Visual tools outclass the SunONE stuff editing stuff that I saw in a J2EE training course. Too early to say Yay or Nay on whether .NEt /MONO will grab the developer mindshare. I would be interested to hear opinions regarding gui apps and the choice of product if people think RIA can help in this area etc. The trouble with RIA is that there is no universal defacto browser technology. There are lots of interesting solutions for rich functionality. My gut feeling it is gooing to take a twentieth-first century equivalent of Netscape and Microsoft to really push forward a next generation [XML/XSLT/ T(x)] browser Where T(x) stands for some new technology. Hint substitute T(x) for SVG, XUL, Flex, or whatever you think it is going happen. Burke -Original Message- From: Frank Zammetti [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2004 5:46 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET As someone who is 98% a J2EE developer but has done two reasonably complex .Net web projects... Forget comparing the two for a moment and just look at .Net by itself... There's not too much bad to say about it on it's own. Microsoft has frankly put out something that is technically a fine piece of work. SO FAR it has proven to be relatively stable and even secure, no worse than Java was at first anyway, and better in some ways. As far as ease of use, I personally haven't used Visual Studio.Net much, I prefer being closer to the metal, so to speak (in this case, that means doing mostly command line work and using UltraEdit, just as I do my Java development). I think you do get the trained monkey symdrome to a degree when VS.Net is in the mix, but that's not automatically true. Design patterns can and are realized in .Net just like in J2EE. In short... If J2EE didn't exist, .Net would be an excellent solution. Yes, there is obviously vendor lock-in, and yes you have to be worried about security and what might be found down the road (so far so good though). Performance is excellent, stability is excellent, and so on. Now, in terms of comparisons... J2EE allows you more flexibility certainly in terms of vendor support. J2EE has I think more of a community around it and more projects that can solve a multitide of problems. I think it is a bit easier and more natural to design in a cleaner and logical manner with J2EE than with .Net. I think .Net wins in tool maturity
Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
Pilgrim, Peter wrote: The trouble with RIA is that there is no universal defacto browser technology. There are lots of interesting solutions for rich functionality. My gut feeling it is gooing to take a twentieth-first century equivalent of Netscape and Microsoft to really push forward a next generation [XML/XSLT/ T(x)] browser Where T(x) stands for some new technology. Hint substitute T(x) for SVG, XUL, Flex, or whatever you think it is going happen. Hey Peter, I saw your post on TSS or RiA. Rich Internent Application, key word is *APPLICATION*. There is no browser, that would make 2 sets of windowing API. Like iTunes is an aplication. Or Limewire is an application. It makes it simpler and more powerfull w/o browser, just use browser for launch. I think Java WebStart is big, no such thing in .NET . (Java of course for cross platform, how do I do a network launch w/ .NET on Mac?). Look who owns the browser standard. (IE of course, with all the plug in, so lets just bypass it, nothing worse than coding JSP for IE) As far as development enviroment, if you compare Sun's JCP Java ... we lose, we lose big: http://theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=28695 (See the GridBag demo) But if you include O/S, like JGoodies (iBatis, etc.) ... we win. I do think there will be O/S for .NET (like Apache is porting, Ant is porting, iBatis is porting so it will be closer. More of a tanget: I think Unix is MUCH more stable than viruses on Windoze. Just check out Redhat Fedora. So ... for heavy lifting, Linux. For departmental, WinAntiVirusCitySlowPoke) Anyway, I think future is iTunes-like-applications concept (with distributed web services arcitecture), I will have a sample next month, posted on my site only. .V boardVU.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
As for pluses and minuses... The minuses with all things Thank you all for con/pros. Especially frank´s comments are very intresting. But please keep the thread alive. I think there are other who consider this an interesting subject, though it might be a little outdebated. Andere Jacobsen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
-Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Vic Sent: 14 September 2004 14:48 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Pilgrim, Peter wrote: The trouble with RIA is that there is no universal defacto browser technology. There are lots of interesting solutions for rich functionality. My gut feeling it is gooing to take a twentieth-first century equivalent of Netscape and Microsoft to really push forward a next generation [XML/XSLT/ T(x)] browser Where T(x) stands for some new technology. Hint substitute T(x) for SVG, XUL, Flex, or whatever you think it is going happen. Hey Peter, I saw your post on TSS or RiA. Rich Internent Application, key word is *APPLICATION*. There is no browser, that would make 2 sets of windowing API. Like iTunes is an aplication. Or Limewire is an application. It makes it simpler and more powerfull w/o browser, just use browser for launch. I think Java WebStart is big, no such thing in .NET . (Java of course for cross platform, how do I do a network launch w/ .NET on Mac?). Look who owns the browser standard. (IE of course, with all the plug in, so lets just bypass it, nothing worse than coding JSP for IE) RIA sounds like an advancement that I did four years ago before Struts. It was an HTTP Tunnelling application with Java Plug-in Swing Client communicating with a Servlet. Basically I built a massive registry editor (JTree) and serialise MutableTreeNode down the pipe to the applet, of which a selected or edited node was sent back to the servlet. I guess it is, How long is a piece of String? nope let me paraphrase How thin is thin? The RiA can be Swing / Webstart, complete and very self-contained application. But it could be a build as as application running on someone else's framework, such as a browser. If I was to redo my application I would do it with Struts still to at least to divorce myself from Servlet code. In fact it is the sort of stuff that lends itself to web services or Struts 2.0 Jericho, where we have abstracted away the HttpServletRequest etc. The other thing about RiA I can think of, who standardises the user interface. Surely if you use an application then you cannot use it on a WAP/Cellphone device, whereis the XML and XSLT should allow you do this for you. As far as development enviroment, if you compare Sun's JCP Java ... we lose, we lose big: http://theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=28695 (See the GridBag demo) But if you include O/S, like JGoodies (iBatis, etc.) ... we win. I do think there will be O/S for .NET (like Apache is porting, Ant is porting, iBatis is porting so it will be closer. More of a tanget: I think Unix is MUCH more stable than viruses on Windoze. Just check out Redhat Fedora. So ... for heavy lifting, Linux. For departmental, WinAntiVirusCitySlowPoke) Anyway, I think future is iTunes-like-applications concept (with distributed web services arcitecture), I will have a sample next month, posted on my site only. .V boardVU.com -- Peter Pilgrim Operations/IT - Credit Suisse First Boston, 10 South Colonnade, London E14 4QJ, United Kingdom Tel: +44 (0)207 883 4447 == This message is for the sole use of the intended recipient. If you received this message in error please delete it and notify us. If this message was misdirected, CSFB does not waive any confidentiality or privilege. CSFB retains and monitors electronic communications sent through its network. Instructions transmitted over this system are not binding on CSFB until they are confirmed by us. Message transmission is not guaranteed to be secure. == - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
Having been exposed to both .NET and java i have to say i've prefered java. My main reasons are: 1. java is free so learning it as a student was cheaper (well, legally anyway!) 2. the amount of free stuff out there for java. There is soo much available! Show this to most .NET developers and they're amazed. Though to be truthful, show most .NET developers how much stuff is available for free for .NET and they're amazed! 3. Windows. if you go with .net, you have to use windows as a server. Firstly there's the whole security/stability issue. I'd agree that in my experience win2k server has been fairly stable. As for secure, that's a joke. How many worms have there been infecting windows servers? How many have infected *nix servers? It also seems madness to me to shell out so much for an operating system when there are better things for free. For example, I installed a linux server with a struts app on it about 6 months ago (uptime 161 days). Hasnt been restarted since. This was in a very large organisation that was 100% windows, and was dubious about my use of linux. Their IT manager i work with says she cant belive how stable it is, compared to all their windows servers. If MS launched .NET for linux, then i might reevaluate it. As for web services, i too love these. I especially love how easy it is to make a service using axis and .jws files. But i do have concerns about web services. Dont get me wrong, web services are great if you want to connect two systems which cant be connected in a simpler fashion. But i am concerned with the amount of overhead web services generate (refering to SOAP here as it is the prevelant standard). In a traditional message passing distributed system, the overhead (that soap introduces) could be controlled, by minimising the size of the messages. Instead of sending a couple of kilobytes of http headers and xml to ask for a record by id, you could just send the integer id number. Same applies to the response. Might not sound much but when you start processing thousands/millions of requests per second, the network bandwidth, processing power and memory usage required to handle these ineficient messages adds up. I would be interested to see a comparison of say mysql's native tcp communications, and say a SOAP+XML equivilent. The inefficiency of SOAP is also a big problem for mobile devices. Low memory (ram, and flash) prohibits the use of say axis+exerces. There are various solutions being tossed about. Daniel. -Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Vic Sent: 14 September 2004 14:48 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Pilgrim, Peter wrote: The trouble with RIA is that there is no universal defacto browser technology. There are lots of interesting solutions for rich functionality. My gut feeling it is gooing to take a twentieth-first century equivalent of Netscape and Microsoft to really push forward a next generation [XML/XSLT/ T(x)] browser Where T(x) stands for some new technology. Hint substitute T(x) for SVG, XUL, Flex, or whatever you think it is going happen. Hey Peter, I saw your post on TSS or RiA. Rich Internent Application, key word is *APPLICATION*. There is no browser, that would make 2 sets of windowing API. Like iTunes is an aplication. Or Limewire is an application. It makes it simpler and more powerfull w/o browser, just use browser for launch. I think Java WebStart is big, no such thing in .NET . (Java of course for cross platform, how do I do a network launch w/ .NET on Mac?). Look who owns the browser standard. (IE of course, with all the plug in, so lets just bypass it, nothing worse than coding JSP for IE) As far as development enviroment, if you compare Sun's JCP Java ... we lose, we lose big: http://theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=28695 (See the GridBag demo) But if you include O/S, like JGoodies (iBatis, etc.) ... we win. I do think there will be O/S for .NET (like Apache is porting, Ant is porting, iBatis is porting so it will be closer. More of a tanget: I think Unix is MUCH more stable than viruses on Windoze. Just check out Redhat Fedora. So ... for heavy lifting, Linux. For departmental, WinAntiVirusCitySlowPoke) Anyway, I think future is iTunes-like-applications concept (with distributed web services arcitecture), I will have a sample next month, posted on my site only. .V boardVU.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
1. java is free so learning it as a student was cheaper (well, legally anyway!) .Net is free as well. You can go download the SDK, same as with Java, and off you go. True, VS.Net costs, but VS.Net is NOT .Net. The one point that is absolutely true though is that .Net only runs on Windows, hence you could rightly say that there in fact IS a cost to .Net. I can't argue it from that perspective. Maybe it's splitting hairs, but .Net *is* free, it's what you need to buy to run it on that's not, which BOTH are free with Java, at least some alternatives are. 2. the amount of free stuff out there for java. There is soo much available! Show this to most .NET developers and they're amazed. Though to be truthful, show most .NET developers how much stuff is available for free for .NET and they're amazed! This is true, and once of my primary reasons for liking Java more than .Net. But to be fair, Java has had a heck of a head start timewise... Let's see how resources for .Net compare to where Java is now in 2-3 more years (obviously Java resources will continue to grow, but to make the comparison fair you need to compare them at approximately the same point in the lifecycles). 3. Windows. if you go with .net, you have to use windows as a server. Firstly there's the whole security/stability issue. I'd agree that in my experience win2k server has been fairly stable. As for secure, that's a joke. How many worms have there been infecting windows servers? How many have infected *nix servers? It also seems madness to me to shell out so much for an operating system when there are better things for free. For example, I installed a linux server with a struts app on it about 6 months ago (uptime 161 days). Hasnt been restarted since. This was in a very large organisation that was 100% windows, and was dubious about my use of linux. Their IT manager i work with says she cant belive how stable it is, compared to all their windows servers. Yep, tie-in to Windows is I think clearly the one big disadvantage to .Net. If it wasn't for this, I think this debate wouldn't be nearly as simple. I do argue with the security aspect of Windows though... If we limit the discussion to servers, then it should be true that you have a capable admin handling it. A properly-configured Windows server, on a properly-configured network, both of which are properly-administered is SIGNIFICANTLY more secure than many people like to believe. I would probably give a slight nod still to Unix* in this area, but the gap is seriously not that much any more. 99.999% of the worms you allude to would NOT be an issue in a well-configured environment (and I'm not even talking about all the patches getting installed right away). You can have a horribly insecure Unix box if it's configured poorly too. As for web services, i too love these. I especially love how easy it is to make a service using axis and .jws files. But i do have concerns about web services. Dont get me wrong, web services are great if you want to connect two systems which cant be connected in a simpler fashion. But i am concerned with the amount of overhead web services generate (refering to SOAP here as it is the prevelant standard). In a traditional message passing distributed system, the overhead (that soap introduces) could be controlled, by minimising the size of the messages. Instead of sending a couple of kilobytes of http headers and xml to ask for a record by id, you could just send the integer id number. Same applies to the response. Might not sound much but when you start processing thousands/millions of requests per second, the network bandwidth, processing power and memory usage required to handle these ineficient messages adds up. I would be interested to see a comparison of say mysql's native tcp communications, and say a SOAP+XML equivilent. Well, now we're getting off into ANOTHER big thread :) I agree with your concerns. In fact, when XML was just coming to light a few years back, I was very much against it. What's the point of taking 2K worth of data and sending it over the wire wrapped in 20K of extraneous information? Hard to make an argument for it in many cases. It's STILL a tough argument in many cases, and I think people are FINALLY starting to realize what I was yelling at the top of my lungs to everyone in the office a couple of years ago: XML is *not* the answer to every question. Sometimes is makes a lot of sense, but your point about high volumes is a good one, I don't think that's the place for XML, meaning Web Services in most cases. A while ago I did a project where we had a mainframe-based application written in COBOL that we needed to create a web front-end for. XML was new at the time, so I wanted to play :) I wrote an application that would make an XML-based request to a web server running on the mainframe, which could talk to CICS and the Cobol apps, get the mapped memory area the
RE: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
-Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anders Jacobsen Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Hi I think this place would be a good place to good some colored ;) comments on and Web applications implemented with J2EE w./ Struts and the same implemented with ASP.NET. Microsoft people tends to have just one point-of-view so I hope I could find some people who preferable had experience with both frameworks. I know it´s hard to find a winnner, but some con/pros from real developers would be of great value. The main functionality of the web application is edit/upate/delete operations and the like. Well... let's start off with the fact that MS is NOT secure. If security is an issue, then MS's record to date is very worrisome. Yes, they've cleaned up their act a bit... however their problems are very deep in the fundamental way they do things. You can find some good discussions elsewhere. Engineering would be next. In general the J2EE world's core tends to be better engineered. EJB being something of an exception, depending on who you talk to. I've seen more discussions of best practices and patterns on J2EE lists then I have on .Net lists. This may be more because I haven't chosen high quality lists. This may also be due to the higher incidence of trained monkey's in the MS world then software engineered. Trained monkey's would be next. MS seems to attract developers who don't have any true understanding of how things work. I'm not sure why. It might be because they've made it so point and click that no one really understands what's going on, and even if they did they might not be able to do anything about it. I've seen far more How do I show 1,000 items in a drop down list box? type questions on MS lists then I have on Java lists. THe few I have seen, have all come from MS developers. MS has focused on providing cheap easy solutions, which is fine for the single computer model the has dominated so much of MS's history. There are very few cheap and easy solutions when developing enterprise wide software. Last, and to a large degree, the most important is choice. I don't have to use Sun's VM. I don't have to use implementation of the JSP/Servlet spec. I don't have to use IBM's implementation either. I'm not tied to a database (ODBC is _NOT_ what I would call good database independance) vendor. I'm not tied to an OS Vendor, which means I'm not tied to a hardware platform. You can't run .Net on Sun, or AS400's or any hardware other then Intel. All of this means one thing... I can customize any Java based solution to fit any need. Thanks in regards Anders - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
And of course... there's a little thing could profit. Keep your hands of my stash. W/ any O/S, I get better quality and keep more of my penies, important for profesional developers. But specificaly, I have not used VB or C# Express, so it's hard for me to compare detials. It be great to hear from somone who deplpyed both in production. .V Jim Barrows wrote: -Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anders Jacobsen Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Hi I think this place would be a good place to good some colored ;) comments on and Web applications implemented with J2EE w./ Struts and the same implemented with ASP.NET. Microsoft people tends to have just one point-of-view so I hope I could find some people who preferable had experience with both frameworks. I know it´s hard to find a winnner, but some con/pros from real developers would be of great value. The main functionality of the web application is edit/upate/delete operations and the like. Well... let's start off with the fact that MS is NOT secure. If security is an issue, then MS's record to date is very worrisome. Yes, they've cleaned up their act a bit... however their problems are very deep in the fundamental way they do things. You can find some good discussions elsewhere. Engineering would be next. In general the J2EE world's core tends to be better engineered. EJB being something of an exception, depending on who you talk to. I've seen more discussions of best practices and patterns on J2EE lists then I have on .Net lists. This may be more because I haven't chosen high quality lists. This may also be due to the higher incidence of trained monkey's in the MS world then software engineered. Trained monkey's would be next. MS seems to attract developers who don't have any true understanding of how things work. I'm not sure why. It might be because they've made it so point and click that no one really understands what's going on, and even if they did they might not be able to do anything about it. I've seen far more How do I show 1,000 items in a drop down list box? type questions on MS lists then I have on Java lists. THe few I have seen, have all come from MS developers. MS has focused on providing cheap easy solutions, which is fine for the single computer model the has dominated so much of MS's history. There are very few cheap and easy solutions when developing enterprise wide software. Last, and to a large degree, the most important is choice. I don't have to use Sun's VM. I don't have to use implementation of the JSP/Servlet spec. I don't have to use IBM's implementation either. I'm not tied to a database (ODBC is _NOT_ what I would call good database independance) vendor. I'm not tied to an OS Vendor, which means I'm not tied to a hardware platform. You can't run .Net on Sun, or AS400's or any hardware other then Intel. All of this means one thing... I can customize any Java based solution to fit any need. Thanks in regards Anders - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Please post on Rich Internet Applications User Interface (RiA/SoA) http://www.portalvu.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
As someone who is 98% a J2EE developer but has done two reasonably complex .Net web projects... Forget comparing the two for a moment and just look at .Net by itself... There's not too much bad to say about it on it's own. Microsoft has frankly put out something that is technically a fine piece of work. SO FAR it has proven to be relatively stable and even secure, no worse than Java was at first anyway, and better in some ways. As far as ease of use, I personally haven't used Visual Studio.Net much, I prefer being closer to the metal, so to speak (in this case, that means doing mostly command line work and using UltraEdit, just as I do my Java development). I think you do get the trained monkey symdrome to a degree when VS.Net is in the mix, but that's not automatically true. Design patterns can and are realized in .Net just like in J2EE. In short... If J2EE didn't exist, .Net would be an excellent solution. Yes, there is obviously vendor lock-in, and yes you have to be worried about security and what might be found down the road (so far so good though). Performance is excellent, stability is excellent, and so on. Now, in terms of comparisons... J2EE allows you more flexibility certainly in terms of vendor support. J2EE has I think more of a community around it and more projects that can solve a multitide of problems. I think it is a bit easier and more natural to design in a cleaner and logical manner with J2EE than with .Net. I think .Net wins in tool maturity because I've yet to see anything that matches VS.Net overall (this is a highly debateable point to be sure). J2EE has had more time to get the kinks worked out and it's currently a very mature platform (although .Net out of the gate was considerably further along than Java was at the start, J2EE is still ahead). .Net gives you some flexibility in terms of language support, although I think this is a bit overrated because even in the .Net shots I'm aware of they have generally standardized on one language or another (usually C#). True, there are some other language implemented in the JVM, but generally speaking it's a Java-only world. J2EE might have the edge in terms of developing distributed applications, although I will say that my opinion is that even today with all the strides that have been made over the past year, .Net is still a superior platform for Web Services (interoperability issues aside, which aren't small concerns in some cases). Overall, anyone that says J2EE is FAR superior to .Net, or anyone that says the opposite, is *probably* a zealot one way or the other and not really worth listening to. Anyone with an objective opinion who doesn't let their hatred of Redmond get in the way will generally say that the two are at least comperable in most ways. Hate MS all you want, but they really have done a great engineering job with .Net... Whether it's better than J2EE is vertainly up for debate (my opinion: I still give the Jave world the nod, but not by a huge margin). Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies www.omnytex.com From: Vic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:10:30 -0500 And of course... there's a little thing could profit. Keep your hands of my stash. W/ any O/S, I get better quality and keep more of my penies, important for profesional developers. But specificaly, I have not used VB or C# Express, so it's hard for me to compare detials. It be great to hear from somone who deplpyed both in production. .V Jim Barrows wrote: -Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anders Jacobsen Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Hi I think this place would be a good place to good some colored ;) comments on and Web applications implemented with J2EE w./ Struts and the same implemented with ASP.NET. Microsoft people tends to have just one point-of-view so I hope I could find some people who preferable had experience with both frameworks. I know it´s hard to find a winnner, but some con/pros from real developers would be of great value. The main functionality of the web application is edit/upate/delete operations and the like. Well... let's start off with the fact that MS is NOT secure. If security is an issue, then MS's record to date is very worrisome. Yes, they've cleaned up their act a bit... however their problems are very deep in the fundamental way they do things. You can find some good discussions elsewhere. Engineering would be next. In general the J2EE world's core tends to be better engineered. EJB being something of an exception, depending on who you talk to. I've seen more discussions of best practices and patterns on J2EE lists then I have on .Net lists
Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
Thanks so much Frank Can you exapand on this just a bit on what you said: J2EE might have the edge in terms of developing distributed applications, although I will say that my opinion is that even today with all the strides that have been made over the past year, .Net is still a superior platform for Web Services (interoperability issues aside, which aren't small concerns in some cases) Becuase to me Web Services is how you do Distributed computing, so another comment on Distributed Web Servicese plusses and minuses for our education. Like what does .NET have as a WS server? IIS? .V ps: AFAIK WS, including Sun, is moving away from XML-RPC to Doc/Lit, which makes complex objects harder, but is more standard. Frank Zammetti wrote: As someone who is 98% a J2EE developer but has done two reasonably complex .Net web projects... Forget comparing the two for a moment and just look at .Net by itself... There's not too much bad to say about it on it's own. Microsoft has frankly put out something that is technically a fine piece of work. SO FAR it has proven to be relatively stable and even secure, no worse than Java was at first anyway, and better in some ways. As far as ease of use, I personally haven't used Visual Studio.Net much, I prefer being closer to the metal, so to speak (in this case, that means doing mostly command line work and using UltraEdit, just as I do my Java development). I think you do get the trained monkey symdrome to a degree when VS.Net is in the mix, but that's not automatically true. Design patterns can and are realized in .Net just like in J2EE. In short... If J2EE didn't exist, .Net would be an excellent solution. Yes, there is obviously vendor lock-in, and yes you have to be worried about security and what might be found down the road (so far so good though). Performance is excellent, stability is excellent, and so on. Now, in terms of comparisons... J2EE allows you more flexibility certainly in terms of vendor support. J2EE has I think more of a community around it and more projects that can solve a multitide of problems. I think it is a bit easier and more natural to design in a cleaner and logical manner with J2EE than with .Net. I think .Net wins in tool maturity because I've yet to see anything that matches VS.Net overall (this is a highly debateable point to be sure). J2EE has had more time to get the kinks worked out and it's currently a very mature platform (although .Net out of the gate was considerably further along than Java was at the start, J2EE is still ahead). .Net gives you some flexibility in terms of language support, although I think this is a bit overrated because even in the .Net shots I'm aware of they have generally standardized on one language or another (usually C#). True, there are some other language implemented in the JVM, but generally speaking it's a Java-only world. J2EE might have the edge in terms of developing distributed applications, although I will say that my opinion is that even today with all the strides that have been made over the past year, .Net is still a superior platform for Web Services (interoperability issues aside, which aren't small concerns in some cases). Overall, anyone that says J2EE is FAR superior to .Net, or anyone that says the opposite, is *probably* a zealot one way or the other and not really worth listening to. Anyone with an objective opinion who doesn't let their hatred of Redmond get in the way will generally say that the two are at least comperable in most ways. Hate MS all you want, but they really have done a great engineering job with .Net... Whether it's better than J2EE is vertainly up for debate (my opinion: I still give the Jave world the nod, but not by a huge margin). Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies www.omnytex.com From: Vic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:10:30 -0500 And of course... there's a little thing could profit. Keep your hands of my stash. W/ any O/S, I get better quality and keep more of my penies, important for profesional developers. But specificaly, I have not used VB or C# Express, so it's hard for me to compare detials. It be great to hear from somone who deplpyed both in production. .V Jim Barrows wrote: -Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anders Jacobsen Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Hi I think this place would be a good place to good some colored ;) comments on and Web applications implemented with J2EE w./ Struts and the same implemented with ASP.NET. Microsoft people tends to have just one point-of-view so I hope I could find some people who preferable had experience with both frameworks. I know
Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
I'll pitch in with a response to Frank's opinions. BTW, this was a well thought out Mr. Spock like summary by Frank. IMHO, I can sum up the ease of .NET development with one sentence. ALL MS. It's much easier to make things easier when you have only ONE target environment. So, the tools, the languages, the IDE's,the OS are all very tightly coupled. Can I put .NET on a REAL enterprise OS, like Solaris, AIX or Linux. NOPE. Frank Zammetti wrote: As someone who is 98% a J2EE developer but has done two reasonably complex .Net web projects... Forget comparing the two for a moment and just look at .Net by itself... There's not too much bad to say about it on it's own. Microsoft has frankly put out something that is technically a fine piece of work. SO FAR it has proven to be relatively stable and even secure, no worse than Java was at first anyway, and better in some ways. As far as ease of use, I personally haven't used Visual Studio.Net much, I prefer being closer to the metal, so to speak (in this case, that means doing mostly command line work and using UltraEdit, just as I do my Java development). I think you do get the trained monkey symdrome to a degree when VS.Net is in the mix, but that's not automatically true. Design patterns can and are realized in .Net just like in J2EE. In short... If J2EE didn't exist, .Net would be an excellent solution. Yes, there is obviously vendor lock-in, and yes you have to be worried about security and what might be found down the road (so far so good though). Performance is excellent, stability is excellent, and so on. Now, in terms of comparisons... J2EE allows you more flexibility certainly in terms of vendor support. J2EE has I think more of a community around it and more projects that can solve a multitide of problems. I think it is a bit easier and more natural to design in a cleaner and logical manner with J2EE than with .Net. I think .Net wins in tool maturity because I've yet to see anything that matches VS.Net overall (this is a highly debateable point to be sure). J2EE has had more time to get the kinks worked out and it's currently a very mature platform (although .Net out of the gate was considerably further along than Java was at the start, J2EE is still ahead). .Net gives you some flexibility in terms of language support, although I think this is a bit overrated because even in the .Net shots I'm aware of they have generally standardized on one language or another (usually C#). True, there are some other language implemented in the JVM, but generally speaking it's a Java-only world. J2EE might have the edge in terms of developing distributed applications, although I will say that my opinion is that even today with all the strides that have been made over the past year, .Net is still a superior platform for Web Services (interoperability issues aside, which aren't small concerns in some cases). Overall, anyone that says J2EE is FAR superior to .Net, or anyone that says the opposite, is *probably* a zealot one way or the other and not really worth listening to. Anyone with an objective opinion who doesn't let their hatred of Redmond get in the way will generally say that the two are at least comperable in most ways. Hate MS all you want, but they really have done a great engineering job with .Net... Whether it's better than J2EE is vertainly up for debate (my opinion: I still give the Jave world the nod, but not by a huge margin). Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies www.omnytex.com From: Vic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:10:30 -0500 And of course... there's a little thing could profit. Keep your hands of my stash. W/ any O/S, I get better quality and keep more of my penies, important for profesional developers. But specificaly, I have not used VB or C# Express, so it's hard for me to compare detials. It be great to hear from somone who deplpyed both in production. .V Jim Barrows wrote: -Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anders Jacobsen Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Hi I think this place would be a good place to good some colored ;) comments on and Web applications implemented with J2EE w./ Struts and the same implemented with ASP.NET. Microsoft people tends to have just one point-of-view so I hope I could find some people who preferable had experience with both frameworks. I know it´s hard to find a winnner, but some con/pros from real developers would be of great value. The main functionality of the web application is edit/upate/delete operations and the like. Well... let's start off with the fact that MS is NOT secure. If security is an issue, then MS's record to date
Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
Frank, I appreciate the honest opinions ... unfortunately, even-handed honest opinions tend to be rare when it comes to this discussion. - Bill Siggelkow Frank Zammetti wrote: As someone who is 98% a J2EE developer but has done two reasonably complex .Net web projects... Forget comparing the two for a moment and just look at .Net by itself... There's not too much bad to say about it on it's own. Microsoft has frankly put out something that is technically a fine piece of work. SO FAR it has proven to be relatively stable and even secure, no worse than Java was at first anyway, and better in some ways. As far as ease of use, I personally haven't used Visual Studio.Net much, I prefer being closer to the metal, so to speak (in this case, that means doing mostly command line work and using UltraEdit, just as I do my Java development). I think you do get the trained monkey symdrome to a degree when VS.Net is in the mix, but that's not automatically true. Design patterns can and are realized in .Net just like in J2EE. In short... If J2EE didn't exist, .Net would be an excellent solution. Yes, there is obviously vendor lock-in, and yes you have to be worried about security and what might be found down the road (so far so good though). Performance is excellent, stability is excellent, and so on. Now, in terms of comparisons... J2EE allows you more flexibility certainly in terms of vendor support. J2EE has I think more of a community around it and more projects that can solve a multitide of problems. I think it is a bit easier and more natural to design in a cleaner and logical manner with J2EE than with .Net. I think .Net wins in tool maturity because I've yet to see anything that matches VS.Net overall (this is a highly debateable point to be sure). J2EE has had more time to get the kinks worked out and it's currently a very mature platform (although .Net out of the gate was considerably further along than Java was at the start, J2EE is still ahead). .Net gives you some flexibility in terms of language support, although I think this is a bit overrated because even in the .Net shots I'm aware of they have generally standardized on one language or another (usually C#). True, there are some other language implemented in the JVM, but generally speaking it's a Java-only world. J2EE might have the edge in terms of developing distributed applications, although I will say that my opinion is that even today with all the strides that have been made over the past year, .Net is still a superior platform for Web Services (interoperability issues aside, which aren't small concerns in some cases). Overall, anyone that says J2EE is FAR superior to .Net, or anyone that says the opposite, is *probably* a zealot one way or the other and not really worth listening to. Anyone with an objective opinion who doesn't let their hatred of Redmond get in the way will generally say that the two are at least comperable in most ways. Hate MS all you want, but they really have done a great engineering job with .Net... Whether it's better than J2EE is vertainly up for debate (my opinion: I still give the Jave world the nod, but not by a huge margin). Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies www.omnytex.com From: Vic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 11:10:30 -0500 And of course... there's a little thing could profit. Keep your hands of my stash. W/ any O/S, I get better quality and keep more of my penies, important for profesional developers. But specificaly, I have not used VB or C# Express, so it's hard for me to compare detials. It be great to hear from somone who deplpyed both in production. .V Jim Barrows wrote: -Original Message- From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Anders Jacobsen Sent: Sunday, September 12, 2004 3:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Hi I think this place would be a good place to good some colored ;) comments on and Web applications implemented with J2EE w./ Struts and the same implemented with ASP.NET. Microsoft people tends to have just one point-of-view so I hope I could find some people who preferable had experience with both frameworks. I know it´s hard to find a winnner, but some con/pros from real developers would be of great value. The main functionality of the web application is edit/upate/delete operations and the like. Well... let's start off with the fact that MS is NOT secure. If security is an issue, then MS's record to date is very worrisome. Yes, they've cleaned up their act a bit... however their problems are very deep in the fundamental way they do things. You can find some good discussions elsewhere. Engineering would be next. In general the J2EE world's core tends to be better
Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
With that comment I was really thinking of EJBs. I'm of the opinion that EJBs in many cases are not worth the trouble (maybe even most cases). That's always a hotly-debated opinion, people argue strongly for and against EJBs all the time. However, when you start talking about a truly distributed, large and complex application, I think Java has the edge with EJBs. From what I've seen, .Net doesn't have a true analogy to the EJB concept. Remoting is a very good solution, but it's a different kind of approach from what I know of it (which I have to admit isn't a ton). I think a year or two ago peoples' thinking in general started to change to what you mention, that these days, dsitributed application usually does mean Web Services. I'm a big believer in that path myself, although I think Web Services in general are getting very bloated and convoluted with all the different standards out there. That aside though, the basic underlying concepts I think is dead on. If you believe that as well, then .Net really is a worthy contender because it makes Web Services so amazingly simple, I feel far simpler than Java does in most cases, or anything else. That's what I mentioned that even with the recent strides Java has made to make Web Services easier, I still think .Net is ahead here, and has been from the start. Just my opinion, as is all of this. You made me nervous with your P.S. though :) I actually prefer the XML-RPC approach to WS, I'd hate to see everyone moving away from it as a rule. As for pluses and minuses... The minuses with all things .Net, as another poster said, is simply all MS. Mono is coming along nicely, but I don't see how they'd ever not be playing catch-up. So, you really are stuck in an all-MS world. If your already in an MS shop, you would consider that a plus of course... Not to get into a religious debate (but that's about the only place it CAN go!)... I have to disagree with the comment someone made that only Unices are real OS's (industrial-strength I think was the phrase?)... It has been my experience in the past when I did mostly MS development, that a properly-configured Windows box can be just as reliable, high-performing and secure as any Unix variant is (from Win2K upwards only... NT wasn't bad, but starting with Win2K I think is when Windows became worth something). I will say that you have to go through more effort to get to that point of stability, but I've had a couple of Windows servers handling rather high loads for well over a year with zero down-time, and I'm no super admin either. I'm not trying to say Windows is better than any Unix, heck, I won't even say it's quite as good, but the delta between the two, in my experience, is not nearly as great as is commonly argued. Forget that wild tangent though :) ... Pluses and minuses... Creating a Web Service provider in .Net is as easy as throwing a specialized ASP page in IIS... This is akin to creating a Web Services from a JSP. Very powerful mechanism (sure, you could do it with JSP's right now, but it wouldn't be as quick and easy). There's other ways to do it, but that is a very nice capability. The code for creating a consumer I find to be a bit less volumous and easier to follow than the equivalent in Java (not by much any more, but still). There are some interoperability problems with .Net WS's, but believe it or not, from what I've read it really comes down to MS following specs a little TOO well! If you try to do Java-.Net services, you sometimes run into some problems because .Net is a little too compliant. Odd to say of any MS product, but seems to be the case. Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies www.omnytex.com From: Vic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:56:15 -0500 Thanks so much Frank Can you exapand on this just a bit on what you said: J2EE might have the edge in terms of developing distributed applications, although I will say that my opinion is that even today with all the strides that have been made over the past year, .Net is still a superior platform for Web Services (interoperability issues aside, which aren't small concerns in some cases) Becuase to me Web Services is how you do Distributed computing, so another comment on Distributed Web Servicese plusses and minuses for our education. Like what does .NET have as a WS server? IIS? .V ps: AFAIK WS, including Sun, is moving away from XML-RPC to Doc/Lit, which makes complex objects harder, but is more standard. Frank Zammetti wrote: As someone who is 98% a J2EE developer but has done two reasonably complex .Net web projects... Forget comparing the two for a moment and just look at .Net by itself... There's not too much bad to say about it on it's own. Microsoft has frankly put out
Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
THANKS again, great thread. .V Frank Zammetti wrote: With that comment I was really thinking of EJBs. I'm of the opinion that EJBs in many cases are not worth the trouble (maybe even most cases). That's always a hotly-debated opinion, people argue strongly for and against EJBs all the time. However, when you start talking about a truly distributed, large and complex application, I think Java has the edge with EJBs. From what I've seen, .Net doesn't have a true analogy to the EJB concept. Remoting is a very good solution, but it's a different kind of approach from what I know of it (which I have to admit isn't a ton). I think a year or two ago peoples' thinking in general started to change to what you mention, that these days, dsitributed application usually does mean Web Services. I'm a big believer in that path myself, although I think Web Services in general are getting very bloated and convoluted with all the different standards out there. That aside though, the basic underlying concepts I think is dead on. If you believe that as well, then .Net really is a worthy contender because it makes Web Services so amazingly simple, I feel far simpler than Java does in most cases, or anything else. That's what I mentioned that even with the recent strides Java has made to make Web Services easier, I still think .Net is ahead here, and has been from the start. Just my opinion, as is all of this. You made me nervous with your P.S. though :) I actually prefer the XML-RPC approach to WS, I'd hate to see everyone moving away from it as a rule. As for pluses and minuses... The minuses with all things .Net, as another poster said, is simply all MS. Mono is coming along nicely, but I don't see how they'd ever not be playing catch-up. So, you really are stuck in an all-MS world. If your already in an MS shop, you would consider that a plus of course... Not to get into a religious debate (but that's about the only place it CAN go!)... I have to disagree with the comment someone made that only Unices are real OS's (industrial-strength I think was the phrase?)... It has been my experience in the past when I did mostly MS development, that a properly-configured Windows box can be just as reliable, high-performing and secure as any Unix variant is (from Win2K upwards only... NT wasn't bad, but starting with Win2K I think is when Windows became worth something). I will say that you have to go through more effort to get to that point of stability, but I've had a couple of Windows servers handling rather high loads for well over a year with zero down-time, and I'm no super admin either. I'm not trying to say Windows is better than any Unix, heck, I won't even say it's quite as good, but the delta between the two, in my experience, is not nearly as great as is commonly argued. Forget that wild tangent though :) ... Pluses and minuses... Creating a Web Service provider in .Net is as easy as throwing a specialized ASP page in IIS... This is akin to creating a Web Services from a JSP. Very powerful mechanism (sure, you could do it with JSP's right now, but it wouldn't be as quick and easy). There's other ways to do it, but that is a very nice capability. The code for creating a consumer I find to be a bit less volumous and easier to follow than the equivalent in Java (not by much any more, but still). There are some interoperability problems with .Net WS's, but believe it or not, from what I've read it really comes down to MS following specs a little TOO well! If you try to do Java-.Net services, you sometimes run into some problems because .Net is a little too compliant. Odd to say of any MS product, but seems to be the case. Frank W. Zammetti Founder and Chief Software Architect Omnytex Technologies www.omnytex.com From: Vic [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 18:56:15 -0500 Thanks so much Frank Can you exapand on this just a bit on what you said: J2EE might have the edge in terms of developing distributed applications, although I will say that my opinion is that even today with all the strides that have been made over the past year, .Net is still a superior platform for Web Services (interoperability issues aside, which aren't small concerns in some cases) Becuase to me Web Services is how you do Distributed computing, so another comment on Distributed Web Servicese plusses and minuses for our education. Like what does .NET have as a WS server? IIS? .V ps: AFAIK WS, including Sun, is moving away from XML-RPC to Doc/Lit, which makes complex objects harder, but is more standard. Frank Zammetti wrote: As someone who is 98% a J2EE developer but has done two reasonably complex .Net web projects... Forget comparing the two for a moment and just look at .Net by itself... There's not too much bad to say
Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
Hi I think this place would be a good place to good some colored ;) comments on and Web applications implemented with J2EE w./ Struts and the same implemented with ASP.NET. Microsoft people tends to have just one point-of-view so I hope I could find some people who preferable had experience with both frameworks. I know it´s hard to find a winnner, but some con/pros from real developers would be of great value. The main functionality of the web application is edit/upate/delete operations and the like. Thanks in regards Anders - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Advantages of J2EE w. Struts vs .NET ASP.NET
I guess it depends about what you really want for your app. Is it just a project? Is it a product? Will it need maintance? Do you care about best software engineering? How much time do you have? My opinion is: --- please answer this questions (just came up on my mind at the moment). Want a nice archictutred software? Want a maintanable software? Want to make real use of design patterns? Want a portable application? Want to work with tons of best of breed techonologies (free)? Want to be able to make choices among hundreds of frameworks (web, validation, testing, persistence, code generation, etc...)? If you said YES to all of my last questions = Go for J2EE!!! Better, go to a java enviroment! --- Anders Jacobsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] escreveu: Hi I think this place would be a good place to good some colored ;) comments on and Web applications implemented with J2EE w./ Struts and the same implemented with ASP.NET. Microsoft people tends to have just one point-of-view so I hope I could find some people who preferable had experience with both frameworks. I know it´s hard to find a winnner, but some con/pros from real developers would be of great value. The main functionality of the web application is edit/upate/delete operations and the like. Thanks in regards Anders - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Yahoo! Messenger 6.0 - jogos, emoticons sonoros e muita diversão. Instale agora! http://br.download.yahoo.com/messenger/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
