Re: The Mytical stagnation
Asad Habib wrote: Do WE think that Dakota has said his fair share and that his ideas are STALE? Do WE think that Dakota should stop harassing others on this list? Do WE think that too much Dakota talk is bad? Do WE think that Dakota is talking nonsense? Well, the truth is that it's hard to know what the majority of people think. Most of the people who subscribe to a mailing list like this just lurk and never say anything. Of course, the likelihood of them saying anything is further reduced if they think they're going to be at the receiving end of insults and browbeating and so on if they express an opinion. Given this basic fact, I think all the WE in caps above is in rather bad taste, frankly. Yes, indeed, WE do! Paul, I, and lots of others on this list THINK exactly this and have expressed this multiple times. I THINK it is time for Dakota to stop THINKING. What do you THINK, Dakota, o noble master of DO YOU THINK? Asad, I was wondering what you actually thought of this question. All I see looking back on your previous comments is that you think that other poeple shouldn't express their opinion or should stop doing so or whatever. If that, in and of itself, is an opinion, it's a rather negative derivative kind of opinion. Okay, it's sarcastic, but you tell Dakota in the above to stop THINKING. Is it a case of: I don't have an opinion so other people also shouldn't? On the other hand, maybe I'm being unfair there. Maybe you actually do have an opinion. Now, to me, it seems indisputable that Struts development stagnated. It was falling behind other things in its space, Webwork being just one prominent example. Bringing in Webwork and relabeling it Struts Action 2 or whatever is a clear recognition of that stagnation. So, this naturally does lead to the question: Why did Struts development stagnate? This really should not be a taboo question. Now, my own concern about this is what happens when a project that, for whatever reasons, cannot maintain a significant level of active development, absorbs an innovative project, and imposes its development practices on them? I mean, things have to be judged by results, and on the level of technical results, the Struts project has not been managed successfully. (Note that I'm not talking about marketing/visibility here.) So, I see a real problem here, particularly when the Struts people, for the most part, simply won't countenance the possibility (the _glimmer_ of a possibility, I almost dare say) that there has been anything wrong with their basic approach towards managing the project up until now. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ - Asad On Fri, 31 Mar 2006, Dakota Jack wrote: Do you think there is any value in letting a situtation which led to the problem go by without lessons learned, Paul? Do you think just because the people who coded the hairball are not talking about it we should just let it drop and believe that they won't do the same thing with WebWorks? Is that what you think? You do seem to get the fact that there is a real, unaddressed problem. I don't think we need you to tell us when we should stop talking. If you don't get it, then move on. Noone is holding your nose to this grindstone. I am amazed when people are concerned that others are addressing an issue. What is with that? If you are tired of talking we should stop? That is a very odd way to think. On 3/29/06, Paul Benedict [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This topic has become stale, in my opinion, and I do not understand why people continue to participate in it. When people attempt to have a successful discussion, there is usually a goal to attain, but I am unable to discern what serious goal there is in telling the commiters they are, in so many words, lousy, a failure, makers of bad products, the fathers of stagnation, betrayers of their foundation, etc. :-) Discussions can be alot of fun and productive and bear good fruit, but discussions, like fruit, also wither after a season and I think the season is well underway for all the participants to just accept that you've been heard, not everyone will agree, and finger-pointing isn't productive. -- Paul --- Al Eridani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/29/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. And you see it wrongly. Either you came late into this and could not be bothered to check the archives or your attention span is so short that you have forgotten already. It all started when some Struts committers described their relatively closed environment (limiting who could contribute) and Jonathan wondered aloud whether that lack of openness had been a contributing factor to Struts decline. The question was never addressed because, in the inmortal words of one of the
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Right Dakota, enough of your insulting childishness please. Like I have said before, there is more to choosing a technology than just picking the most modern and cutting edge one. Like I have said before, I don't CARE that Struts 1 is not the most up to date tech, I care that it a) does what I needed it to do and b) that I was easily able to start developing with it because there were lots of books and online tutorials, more than for any other tech I was considering at the time. What I am doing does not require the latest and greatest bleeding edge stuff, but I needed readily available help to get started quickly. Struts 1 gave me that so I am happy. I don't for one second regret choosing Struts 1 and I don't feel I have been let down by the struts development team. You obviously do feel let down but not everyone agrees with you and no matter how much you shout and insult people that will not change. I am fully aware of the realities of the situation I am in and about the realities of the choice I made nine months ago, shouting at me will not change that, it will just make me think of you as an even bigger idiot. Now, I don't know if it is the case where you come from but referring to people by just their surname is insulting here in Ireland so kindly don't do it again. Thank you, Bart. Dakota Jack wrote: So you are ecstatic that your design choice of Struts 9 months ago has been determined by the Struts committers to be a bad choice? You should fit right in around here with your logic. Webworks has not be included, Busschots. Webworks, which was around when you made your BRILLIANT choice, is now kicking your choice out the door. On 3/29/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. So the problem seems to be that two groups trying to achieve the same thing have come together and merged. Hang on a sec that's NOT a problem. The struts guys saw that webworks was good and adopted it. GREAT, BRILLIANT! They are DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THE USERS, i.e. US! Just because you switch to a new track does NOT mean you have stagnated! It means you are moving foward in a positive manner. How on earth can that be a bad thing and how on earth can such obvious progress forward be stagnation! By Jon's logic Windows development stagnated when the Windows ME code-base was abandoned and MS have serious questions to answer as to why they moved on to a better technology (WinNT Code Base). Not to Mention Apple really stagnated when they moved from OS 9 to the NeXT based OS X. Besides, since I started using struts about 9 months ago Struts have moved on at least 5 minor versions, that's hardly stagnent now is it! Stuts is moving FORWARD, the struts code base has been STRENGTHENED by the inclusion of WebWorks, where on earth is this mythical stagnation? The only thing here that seems stagnent to me are John's posts. They are just the same thing over and over and over and over and over . again. We get it Jon, we know what you think, it's just that not everyone agrees with you and no matter how many times you say the same thing everyone will NEVER agree with you! This topic is dead, it has been for weeks, can we now please do the honourable thing and bury it! Bart. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Right, You assume that Struts 1 was a disaster and was messed up. Not all of us agree with you. I for one don't. If you look at it from my point of view and that of the others who agree with me there is no big burning question to be answered because there was no massive cockup. If everyone agreed with you this list would be full of people clamouring to support you in your just cause. It doesn't appear to be so I would guess you are in the minority. Bart. Dakota Jack wrote: Do you think there is any value in letting a situtation which led to the problem go by without lessons learned, Paul? Do you think just because the people who coded the hairball are not talking about it we should just let it drop and believe that they won't do the same thing with WebWorks? Is that what you think? You do seem to get the fact that there is a real, unaddressed problem. I don't think we need you to tell us when we should stop talking. If you don't get it, then move on. Noone is holding your nose to this grindstone. I am amazed when people are concerned that others are addressing an issue. What is with that? If you are tired of talking we should stop? That is a very odd way to think. On 3/29/06, Paul Benedict [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This topic has become stale, in my opinion, and I do not understand why people continue to participate in it. When people attempt to have a successful discussion, there is usually a goal to attain, but I am unable to discern what serious goal there is in telling the commiters they are, in so many words, lousy, a failure, makers of bad products, the fathers of stagnation, betrayers of their foundation, etc. :-) Discussions can be alot of fun and productive and bear good fruit, but discussions, like fruit, also wither after a season and I think the season is well underway for all the participants to just accept that you've been heard, not everyone will agree, and finger-pointing isn't productive. -- Paul --- Al Eridani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/29/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. And you see it wrongly. Either you came late into this and could not be bothered to check the archives or your attention span is so short that you have forgotten already. It all started when some Struts committers described their relatively closed environment (limiting who could contribute) and Jonathan wondered aloud whether that lack of openness had been a contributing factor to Struts decline. The question was never addressed because, in the inmortal words of one of the defenders of the faith, the question is invalid. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Well said! Asad Habib wrote: Do WE think that Dakota has said his fair share and that his ideas are STALE? Do WE think that Dakota should stop harassing others on this list? Do WE think that too much Dakota talk is bad? Do WE think that Dakota is talking nonsense? Yes, indeed, WE do! Paul, I, and lots of others on this list THINK exactly this and have expressed this multiple times. I THINK it is time for Dakota to stop THINKING. What do you THINK, Dakota, o noble master of DO YOU THINK? - Asad On Fri, 31 Mar 2006, Dakota Jack wrote: Do you think there is any value in letting a situtation which led to the problem go by without lessons learned, Paul? Do you think just because the people who coded the hairball are not talking about it we should just let it drop and believe that they won't do the same thing with WebWorks? Is that what you think? You do seem to get the fact that there is a real, unaddressed problem. I don't think we need you to tell us when we should stop talking. If you don't get it, then move on. Noone is holding your nose to this grindstone. I am amazed when people are concerned that others are addressing an issue. What is with that? If you are tired of talking we should stop? That is a very odd way to think. On 3/29/06, Paul Benedict [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This topic has become stale, in my opinion, and I do not understand why people continue to participate in it. When people attempt to have a successful discussion, there is usually a goal to attain, but I am unable to discern what serious goal there is in telling the commiters they are, in so many words, lousy, a failure, makers of bad products, the fathers of stagnation, betrayers of their foundation, etc. :-) Discussions can be alot of fun and productive and bear good fruit, but discussions, like fruit, also wither after a season and I think the season is well underway for all the participants to just accept that you've been heard, not everyone will agree, and finger-pointing isn't productive. -- Paul --- Al Eridani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/29/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. And you see it wrongly. Either you came late into this and could not be bothered to check the archives or your attention span is so short that you have forgotten already. It all started when some Struts committers described their relatively closed environment (limiting who could contribute) and Jonathan wondered aloud whether that lack of openness had been a contributing factor to Struts decline. The question was never addressed because, in the inmortal words of one of the defenders of the faith, the question is invalid. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Mytical stagnation
I don't have any personal issues in this discussion, other than finding the level of discussion an absolute embarrassment to mankind. My questions are based on a professional concern about the stability of a widely used platform. It also has nothing to do with what you like or don't like. I congratulate you on being so piss-happy you cannot stand it. I really could care less about your personal needs, your family, your girlfriends, whatever. Please leave the personal baloney at home where your acquaintances can deal with your peculiarities. Are you, by the way, an exchange student in Ireland? I have spent a lot of time in Ireland and have never run across a person with as little wit in that fine land as you exhibit. Anyway, raise the level of thought to something other than you and me and you will be a lot happier, even though you are so happy now it is comforting to all, I am sure. On 4/1/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right Dakota, enough of your insulting childishness please. Like I have said before, there is more to choosing a technology than just picking the most modern and cutting edge one. Like I have said before, I don't CARE that Struts 1 is not the most up to date tech, I care that it a) does what I needed it to do and b) that I was easily able to start developing with it because there were lots of books and online tutorials, more than for any other tech I was considering at the time. What I am doing does not require the latest and greatest bleeding edge stuff, but I needed readily available help to get started quickly. Struts 1 gave me that so I am happy. I don't for one second regret choosing Struts 1 and I don't feel I have been let down by the struts development team. You obviously do feel let down but not everyone agrees with you and no matter how much you shout and insult people that will not change. I am fully aware of the realities of the situation I am in and about the realities of the choice I made nine months ago, shouting at me will not change that, it will just make me think of you as an even bigger idiot. Now, I don't know if it is the case where you come from but referring to people by just their surname is insulting here in Ireland so kindly don't do it again. Thank you, Bart. Dakota Jack wrote: So you are ecstatic that your design choice of Struts 9 months ago has been determined by the Struts committers to be a bad choice? You should fit right in around here with your logic. Webworks has not be included, Busschots. Webworks, which was around when you made your BRILLIANT choice, is now kicking your choice out the door. On 3/29/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. So the problem seems to be that two groups trying to achieve the same thing have come together and merged. Hang on a sec that's NOT a problem. The struts guys saw that webworks was good and adopted it. GREAT, BRILLIANT! They are DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THE USERS, i.e. US! Just because you switch to a new track does NOT mean you have stagnated! It means you are moving foward in a positive manner. How on earth can that be a bad thing and how on earth can such obvious progress forward be stagnation! By Jon's logic Windows development stagnated when the Windows ME code-base was abandoned and MS have serious questions to answer as to why they moved on to a better technology (WinNT Code Base). Not to Mention Apple really stagnated when they moved from OS 9 to the NeXT based OS X. Besides, since I started using struts about 9 months ago Struts have moved on at least 5 minor versions, that's hardly stagnent now is it! Stuts is moving FORWARD, the struts code base has been STRENGTHENED by the inclusion of WebWorks, where on earth is this mythical stagnation? The only thing here that seems stagnent to me are John's posts. They are just the same thing over and over and over and over and over . again. We get it Jon, we know what you think, it's just that not everyone agrees with you and no matter how many times you say the same thing everyone will NEVER agree with you! This topic is dead, it has been for weeks, can we now please do the honourable thing and bury it! Bart. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Bart, if you don't think there is a problem, move on. There is nothing here for you. I can only imagine that your involvement in Struts is at the level of playing, if this is your attitude. I have left tinker toys behind and am trying to deliver to real world problems. I hardly think that everyone on a project that failed would be clamoring to support a discussion of their failure. That would happen on a project that succeeded. People that succeed tend to like to look at their work and to learn from failures. People that fail hate it. So, your reasoning is quite skewed. Of course, it is obvious that you have no intention of reasoning. I am just trying to keep the dialogue going long enough to get a message across that it is okay and even good to discuss difficulties. This is a very valuable thing to learn in work, as well in life, Bart. I recommend it. Do you get that? On 4/1/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, You assume that Struts 1 was a disaster and was messed up. Not all of us agree with you. I for one don't. If you look at it from my point of view and that of the others who agree with me there is no big burning question to be answered because there was no massive cockup. If everyone agreed with you this list would be full of people clamouring to support you in your just cause. It doesn't appear to be so I would guess you are in the minority. Bart. Dakota Jack wrote: Do you think there is any value in letting a situtation which led to the problem go by without lessons learned, Paul? Do you think just because the people who coded the hairball are not talking about it we should just let it drop and believe that they won't do the same thing with WebWorks? Is that what you think? You do seem to get the fact that there is a real, unaddressed problem. I don't think we need you to tell us when we should stop talking. If you don't get it, then move on. Noone is holding your nose to this grindstone. I am amazed when people are concerned that others are addressing an issue. What is with that? If you are tired of talking we should stop? That is a very odd way to think. On 3/29/06, Paul Benedict [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This topic has become stale, in my opinion, and I do not understand why people continue to participate in it. When people attempt to have a successful discussion, there is usually a goal to attain, but I am unable to discern what serious goal there is in telling the commiters they are, in so many words, lousy, a failure, makers of bad products, the fathers of stagnation, betrayers of their foundation, etc. :-) Discussions can be alot of fun and productive and bear good fruit, but discussions, like fruit, also wither after a season and I think the season is well underway for all the participants to just accept that you've been heard, not everyone will agree, and finger-pointing isn't productive. -- Paul --- Al Eridani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/29/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. And you see it wrongly. Either you came late into this and could not be bothered to check the archives or your attention span is so short that you have forgotten already. It all started when some Struts committers described their relatively closed environment (limiting who could contribute) and Jonathan wondered aloud whether that lack of openness had been a contributing factor to Struts decline. The question was never addressed because, in the inmortal words of one of the defenders of the faith, the question is invalid. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Dakota Jack wrote: I don't have any personal issues in this discussion, other than finding the level of discussion an absolute embarrassment to mankind. My questions are based on a professional concern about the stability of a widely used platform. It also has nothing to do with what you like or don't like. I congratulate you on being so piss-happy you cannot stand it. I really could care less about your personal needs, your family, your girlfriends, whatever. Please leave the personal baloney at home where your acquaintances can deal with your peculiarities. Please take your own advice. I let the first three weeks of your discussion go by without at peep. It is not no longer a discussion, it's certainly spam, most likely a flame war and possibly even trolling at this stage. What I know for sure is that it is no longer a usefull discussion and is just pumping people's mail boxes full of crap. That annoys me. Hence I bowed into this discussion this week, to express my annoyance at the abuse of this list by your self and a few others. Are you, by the way, an exchange student in Ireland? I have spent a lot of time in Ireland and have never run across a person with as little wit in that fine land as you exhibit. Anyway, raise the level of thought to something other than you and me and you will be a lot happier, even though you are so happy now it is comforting to all, I am sure. And you call this not getting personal? Talk about hypocracy! You know I really can' take you seriously anymore. Your only answer to anyone having a different opinion to you appears to be to belittle and insult them. When I see peopel do that I always feel that it says very little of the people being talked about but volumes about the speaker. Regards, Bart. On 4/1/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right Dakota, enough of your insulting childishness please. Like I have said before, there is more to choosing a technology than just picking the most modern and cutting edge one. Like I have said before, I don't CARE that Struts 1 is not the most up to date tech, I care that it a) does what I needed it to do and b) that I was easily able to start developing with it because there were lots of books and online tutorials, more than for any other tech I was considering at the time. What I am doing does not require the latest and greatest bleeding edge stuff, but I needed readily available help to get started quickly. Struts 1 gave me that so I am happy. I don't for one second regret choosing Struts 1 and I don't feel I have been let down by the struts development team. You obviously do feel let down but not everyone agrees with you and no matter how much you shout and insult people that will not change. I am fully aware of the realities of the situation I am in and about the realities of the choice I made nine months ago, shouting at me will not change that, it will just make me think of you as an even bigger idiot. Now, I don't know if it is the case where you come from but referring to people by just their surname is insulting here in Ireland so kindly don't do it again. Thank you, Bart. Dakota Jack wrote: So you are ecstatic that your design choice of Struts 9 months ago has been determined by the Struts committers to be a bad choice? You should fit right in around here with your logic. Webworks has not be included, Busschots. Webworks, which was around when you made your BRILLIANT choice, is now kicking your choice out the door. On 3/29/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. So the problem seems to be that two groups trying to achieve the same thing have come together and merged. Hang on a sec that's NOT a problem. The struts guys saw that webworks was good and adopted it. GREAT, BRILLIANT! They are DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THE USERS, i.e. US! Just because you switch to a new track does NOT mean you have stagnated! It means you are moving foward in a positive manner. How on earth can that be a bad thing and how on earth can such obvious progress forward be stagnation! By Jon's logic Windows development stagnated when the Windows ME code-base was abandoned and MS have serious questions to answer as to why they moved on to a better technology (WinNT Code Base). Not to Mention Apple really stagnated when they moved from OS 9 to the NeXT based OS X. Besides, since I started using struts about 9 months ago Struts have moved on at least 5 minor versions, that's hardly stagnent now is it! Stuts is moving FORWARD, the struts code base has been STRENGTHENED by the inclusion of WebWorks, where on earth is this mythical stagnation? The only thing here that seems stagnent to me are John's posts. They are just the same thing over and over and over and over and over . again. We get it
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Dakota Jack wrote: Bart, if you don't think there is a problem, move on. There is nothing here for you. I can only imagine that your involvement in Struts is at the level of playing, if this is your attitude. I have left tinker toys behind and am trying to deliver to real world problems. and again with the pointless insulting. I am not playing with toys, I'm tackelling cutting edge problems that are good enough to get published in journals. But if it makes you feel better to think of me as a pleb who's not doing anything useful then by all means carry on, it doesn't bother me. In fact your posts give me a great laugh. I hardly think that everyone on a project that failed would be clamoring to support a discussion of their failure. That would happen on a project that succeeded. People that succeed tend to like to look at their work and to learn from failures. People that fail hate it. So, your reasoning is quite skewed. Of course, it is obvious that you have no intention of reasoning. Sigh you missed my point there. Obviously the developers would not be queuing up to insult themselves (also, with yourself and Jon around there would be no need for them to insult themselves, yee are great at it). However, if they had really made such a mess of it don't you think that vast numbers of annoyed users would be posting here agreeing with your self and Jon? You'll notice of course that that is not the case. We can all draw our own conclusions from that fact. Me, personally, I draw the conclusion that people are not voicing their agreement because they don't agree. I am just trying to keep the dialogue going long enough to get a message across that it is okay and even good to discuss difficulties. This is a very valuable thing to learn in work, as well in life, Bart. I recommend it. Do you get that? Yup, I also have an understanding of concepts like spamming and trolling which you appear to be lacking in. Also good skills to develope for both life in general and work. Regards, Bart. On 4/1/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, You assume that Struts 1 was a disaster and was messed up. Not all of us agree with you. I for one don't. If you look at it from my point of view and that of the others who agree with me there is no big burning question to be answered because there was no massive cockup. If everyone agreed with you this list would be full of people clamouring to support you in your just cause. It doesn't appear to be so I would guess you are in the minority. Bart. Dakota Jack wrote: Do you think there is any value in letting a situtation which led to the problem go by without lessons learned, Paul? Do you think just because the people who coded the hairball are not talking about it we should just let it drop and believe that they won't do the same thing with WebWorks? Is that what you think? You do seem to get the fact that there is a real, unaddressed problem. I don't think we need you to tell us when we should stop talking. If you don't get it, then move on. Noone is holding your nose to this grindstone. I am amazed when people are concerned that others are addressing an issue. What is with that? If you are tired of talking we should stop? That is a very odd way to think. On 3/29/06, Paul Benedict [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This topic has become stale, in my opinion, and I do not understand why people continue to participate in it. When people attempt to have a successful discussion, there is usually a goal to attain, but I am unable to discern what serious goal there is in telling the commiters they are, in so many words, lousy, a failure, makers of bad products, the fathers of stagnation, betrayers of their foundation, etc. :-) Discussions can be alot of fun and productive and bear good fruit, but discussions, like fruit, also wither after a season and I think the season is well underway for all the participants to just accept that you've been heard, not everyone will agree, and finger-pointing isn't productive. -- Paul --- Al Eridani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/29/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. And you see it wrongly. Either you came late into this and could not be bothered to check the archives or your attention span is so short that you have forgotten already. It all started when some Struts committers described their relatively closed environment (limiting who could contribute) and Jonathan wondered aloud whether that lack of openness had been a contributing factor to Struts decline. The question was never addressed because, in the inmortal words of one of
Re: The Mytical stagnation
On 4/1/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dakota Jack wrote: My questions are based on a professional concern about the stability of a widely used platform. It also has nothing to do with what you like or don't like. snip I let the first three weeks of your discussion go by without at peep. /snip So what? snip What I know for sure is that it is no longer a usefull discussion and is just pumping people's mail boxes full of crap. /snip Of course it is a discussion. What else would it be? You mean you don't like the discussion. Who cares? snip That annoys me. /snip Well, seek help. It is not my job in life to entertain or to assist you in your difficulties with people. snip Are you, by the way, an exchange student in Ireland? I have spent a lot of time in Ireland and have never run across a person with as little wit in that fine land as you exhibit. Anyway, raise the level of thought to something other than you and me and you will be a lot happier, even though you are so happy now it is comforting to all, I am sure. And you call this not getting personal? Talk about hypocracy! /snip No! I do call this getting personal. You came to this list on your own admission with a personal matter. Well, you got some back. I find you so lacking in personal insight as to be amazing. If you would like to talk about the issues, fine! But when you jump into the middle of a conversation, like so many others like you, and say that people should or should not talk in tune with your agenda, I have to say that you are just too much. If you don't like that, fine! I could care less. I would prefer that you stick to the issues. But, if you think you have the authority to measure what is and what is not worthwhile in discussion, you are self-deluded. snip Now, I don't know if it is the case where you come from but referring to people by just their surname is insulting here in Ireland so kindly don't do it again. /snip You are not in Kansas, Toto. You are on the Internet. And, aren't you Belgian? I have, as I said, spent a great deal of time in Ireland and I don't recall that what you say is true. I think it is false, in fact. However, I have no interest in being petty, so I will just call you Bart. You are not one of those calling Jonathan Jon are you? Also, if that is insulting, why do you refer to your friend Niall Bren as Bren? Just a question. I am sure you have an answer. -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~
Re: The Mytical stagnation
What are the popular technologies in your area? If you talk about web applications then .NET, or anything else that maintain people (managers) brainwashed with marketing instead of looking for the best option, in the worst case non technical people make technical decisions about development. My company have been participated in licitations of the government and most cases they put in the requirements the technology that must be used in order to participate because they were influenced by big suppliers like Borland, MS, IBM, HP, etc. this makes the participants to moving to these technologies and the rest is history. ps.- again, sorry for my english. Best regards. On 3/30/06, Joel Alejandro Espinosa Carra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Konstantin Priblouda wrote: --- Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I don't see that, I have to conclude that most people don't grok what is going on, or at least the full implications. If one does understand the full implications, one ought to be quite wary about continuing to invest in building things on top of Struts 1.x and one would be looking at migrating one's apps and one's skills towards what will be the 2.x code -- i.e. Webwork. I think some of users already recognized what is going on. It was almost impossible to sell webwork skills ( as freelancer ) , because everybody wanted struts - but now there is serious demand (in germany). I get 2-3 serious requests per week. Not only development, but also workshops / teaching. Anyway it is better than Mexico, here neither strus nor webwork are appreciated by employers, I like struts and other web-development technologies but the time I spent learned struts is almost a wasted time :-(if we consider that nobody find web developers with that kind of skills. Maybe I should consider moving to another country. ps.- Sorry for my poor english. Best Regards. -- Ing. Joel Alejandro Espinosa Carra CINVESTAV CTS - Centro de Tecnología de Semiconductores Tel. +52 (33) 3770-3700 ext. 1049 http://www.cts-design.com -- Este mensaje ha sido analizado por MailScanner en busca de virus y otros contenidos peligrosos, y se considera que está limpio. MailScanner agradece a transtec Computers por su apoyo. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com -- Ing. Joel Alejandro Espinosa Carra CINVESTAV CTS - Centro de Tecnología de Semiconductores Tel. +52 (33) 3770-3700 ext. 1049 http://www.cts-design.com -- Este mensaje ha sido analizado por MailScanner en busca de virus y otros contenidos peligrosos, y se considera que está limpio. MailScanner agradece a transtec Computers por su apoyo. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Mytical stagnation
So you are ecstatic that your design choice of Struts 9 months ago has been determined by the Struts committers to be a bad choice? You should fit right in around here with your logic. Webworks has not be included, Busschots. Webworks, which was around when you made your BRILLIANT choice, is now kicking your choice out the door. On 3/29/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. So the problem seems to be that two groups trying to achieve the same thing have come together and merged. Hang on a sec that's NOT a problem. The struts guys saw that webworks was good and adopted it. GREAT, BRILLIANT! They are DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THE USERS, i.e. US! Just because you switch to a new track does NOT mean you have stagnated! It means you are moving foward in a positive manner. How on earth can that be a bad thing and how on earth can such obvious progress forward be stagnation! By Jon's logic Windows development stagnated when the Windows ME code-base was abandoned and MS have serious questions to answer as to why they moved on to a better technology (WinNT Code Base). Not to Mention Apple really stagnated when they moved from OS 9 to the NeXT based OS X. Besides, since I started using struts about 9 months ago Struts have moved on at least 5 minor versions, that's hardly stagnent now is it! Stuts is moving FORWARD, the struts code base has been STRENGTHENED by the inclusion of WebWorks, where on earth is this mythical stagnation? The only thing here that seems stagnent to me are John's posts. They are just the same thing over and over and over and over and over . again. We get it Jon, we know what you think, it's just that not everyone agrees with you and no matter how many times you say the same thing everyone will NEVER agree with you! This topic is dead, it has been for weeks, can we now please do the honourable thing and bury it! Bart. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Do you think there is any value in letting a situtation which led to the problem go by without lessons learned, Paul? Do you think just because the people who coded the hairball are not talking about it we should just let it drop and believe that they won't do the same thing with WebWorks? Is that what you think? You do seem to get the fact that there is a real, unaddressed problem. I don't think we need you to tell us when we should stop talking. If you don't get it, then move on. Noone is holding your nose to this grindstone. I am amazed when people are concerned that others are addressing an issue. What is with that? If you are tired of talking we should stop? That is a very odd way to think. On 3/29/06, Paul Benedict [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This topic has become stale, in my opinion, and I do not understand why people continue to participate in it. When people attempt to have a successful discussion, there is usually a goal to attain, but I am unable to discern what serious goal there is in telling the commiters they are, in so many words, lousy, a failure, makers of bad products, the fathers of stagnation, betrayers of their foundation, etc. :-) Discussions can be alot of fun and productive and bear good fruit, but discussions, like fruit, also wither after a season and I think the season is well underway for all the participants to just accept that you've been heard, not everyone will agree, and finger-pointing isn't productive. -- Paul --- Al Eridani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/29/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. And you see it wrongly. Either you came late into this and could not be bothered to check the archives or your attention span is so short that you have forgotten already. It all started when some Struts committers described their relatively closed environment (limiting who could contribute) and Jonathan wondered aloud whether that lack of openness had been a contributing factor to Struts decline. The question was never addressed because, in the inmortal words of one of the defenders of the faith, the question is invalid. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Do WE think that Dakota has said his fair share and that his ideas are STALE? Do WE think that Dakota should stop harassing others on this list? Do WE think that too much Dakota talk is bad? Do WE think that Dakota is talking nonsense? Yes, indeed, WE do! Paul, I, and lots of others on this list THINK exactly this and have expressed this multiple times. I THINK it is time for Dakota to stop THINKING. What do you THINK, Dakota, o noble master of DO YOU THINK? - Asad On Fri, 31 Mar 2006, Dakota Jack wrote: Do you think there is any value in letting a situtation which led to the problem go by without lessons learned, Paul? Do you think just because the people who coded the hairball are not talking about it we should just let it drop and believe that they won't do the same thing with WebWorks? Is that what you think? You do seem to get the fact that there is a real, unaddressed problem. I don't think we need you to tell us when we should stop talking. If you don't get it, then move on. Noone is holding your nose to this grindstone. I am amazed when people are concerned that others are addressing an issue. What is with that? If you are tired of talking we should stop? That is a very odd way to think. On 3/29/06, Paul Benedict [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This topic has become stale, in my opinion, and I do not understand why people continue to participate in it. When people attempt to have a successful discussion, there is usually a goal to attain, but I am unable to discern what serious goal there is in telling the commiters they are, in so many words, lousy, a failure, makers of bad products, the fathers of stagnation, betrayers of their foundation, etc. :-) Discussions can be alot of fun and productive and bear good fruit, but discussions, like fruit, also wither after a season and I think the season is well underway for all the participants to just accept that you've been heard, not everyone will agree, and finger-pointing isn't productive. -- Paul --- Al Eridani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/29/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. And you see it wrongly. Either you came late into this and could not be bothered to check the archives or your attention span is so short that you have forgotten already. It all started when some Struts committers described their relatively closed environment (limiting who could contribute) and Jonathan wondered aloud whether that lack of openness had been a contributing factor to Struts decline. The question was never addressed because, in the inmortal words of one of the defenders of the faith, the question is invalid. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it float on its back. ~Dakota Jack~ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Vinny wrote: Jon, I think most of use were well aware of the merger. See : http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-userm=113321040221316w=2 We've hashed over this before you showed up: and this : http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=11334881332r=1w=2 You might want search our archive a bit. I'm not saying it was never discussed at all. However, if the mass of users here really understood what was going on and its implications, you would expect to see a lot more threads here related to code migration issues. Since I don't see that, I have to conclude that most people don't grok what is going on, or at least the full implications. If one does understand the full implications, one ought to be quite wary about continuing to invest in building things on top of Struts 1.x and one would be looking at migrating one's apps and one's skills towards what will be the 2.x code -- i.e. Webwork. Actually, Bart Busschots did just state that, before this discussion, he did not have a clear idea of what was going on. That's only one guy, okay, but I seriously doubt that he is exceptional in this regard. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Mytical stagnation
--- Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I don't see that, I have to conclude that most people don't grok what is going on, or at least the full implications. If one does understand the full implications, one ought to be quite wary about continuing to invest in building things on top of Struts 1.x and one would be looking at migrating one's apps and one's skills towards what will be the 2.x code -- i.e. Webwork. I think some of users already recognized what is going on. It was almost impossible to sell webwork skills ( as freelancer ) , because everybody wanted struts - but now there is serious demand (in germany). I get 2-3 serious requests per week. Not only development, but also workshops / teaching. regards, [ Konstantin Pribluda http://www.pribluda.de ] Still using XDoclet 1.x? XDoclet 2 is released and of production quality. check it out: http://xdoclet.codehaus.org __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Konstantin Priblouda wrote: --- Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I don't see that, I have to conclude that most people don't grok what is going on, or at least the full implications. If one does understand the full implications, one ought to be quite wary about continuing to invest in building things on top of Struts 1.x and one would be looking at migrating one's apps and one's skills towards what will be the 2.x code -- i.e. Webwork. I think some of users already recognized what is going on. It was almost impossible to sell webwork skills ( as freelancer ) , because everybody wanted struts - but now there is serious demand (in germany). I get 2-3 serious requests per week. Not only development, but also workshops / teaching. That's interesting to hear. OTOH, it is hard to know how much of the pick-up you are reporting is due to people being aware that Webwork is going to be Struts Action 2. Webwork might have just been picking up steam independently of that. I've been surprised in this mailing list how little awareness there seems to be. After all, most users don't subscribe to mailing lists, so this is the subset that is more interested in being up-to-date on stuff. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ regards, [ Konstantin Pribluda http://www.pribluda.de ] Still using XDoclet 1.x? XDoclet 2 is released and of production quality. check it out: http://xdoclet.codehaus.org __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Mytical stagnation
On 3/30/06, Konstantin Priblouda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but now there is serious demand (in germany). Not in the San Francisco Bay Area; in craigslist, Struts: 80, WebWork: 2. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Konstantin Priblouda wrote: --- Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I don't see that, I have to conclude that most people don't grok what is going on, or at least the full implications. If one does understand the full implications, one ought to be quite wary about continuing to invest in building things on top of Struts 1.x and one would be looking at migrating one's apps and one's skills towards what will be the 2.x code -- i.e. Webwork. I think some of users already recognized what is going on. It was almost impossible to sell webwork skills ( as freelancer ) , because everybody wanted struts - but now there is serious demand (in germany). I get 2-3 serious requests per week. Not only development, but also workshops / teaching. Anyway it is better than Mexico, here neither strus nor webwork are appreciated by employers, I like struts and other web-development technologies but the time I spent learned struts is almost a wasted time :-( if we consider that nobody find web developers with that kind of skills. Maybe I should consider moving to another country. ps.- Sorry for my poor english. Best Regards. -- Ing. Joel Alejandro Espinosa Carra CINVESTAV CTS - Centro de Tecnología de Semiconductores Tel. +52 (33) 3770-3700 ext. 1049 http://www.cts-design.com -- Este mensaje ha sido analizado por MailScanner en busca de virus y otros contenidos peligrosos, y se considera que está limpio. MailScanner agradece a transtec Computers por su apoyo. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Mytical stagnation
What are the popular technologies in your area? On 3/30/06, Joel Alejandro Espinosa Carra [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Konstantin Priblouda wrote: --- Jonathan Revusky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I don't see that, I have to conclude that most people don't grok what is going on, or at least the full implications. If one does understand the full implications, one ought to be quite wary about continuing to invest in building things on top of Struts 1.x and one would be looking at migrating one's apps and one's skills towards what will be the 2.x code -- i.e. Webwork. I think some of users already recognized what is going on. It was almost impossible to sell webwork skills ( as freelancer ) , because everybody wanted struts - but now there is serious demand (in germany). I get 2-3 serious requests per week. Not only development, but also workshops / teaching. Anyway it is better than Mexico, here neither strus nor webwork are appreciated by employers, I like struts and other web-development technologies but the time I spent learned struts is almost a wasted time :-( if we consider that nobody find web developers with that kind of skills. Maybe I should consider moving to another country. ps.- Sorry for my poor english. Best Regards. -- Ing. Joel Alejandro Espinosa Carra CINVESTAV CTS - Centro de Tecnología de Semiconductores Tel. +52 (33) 3770-3700 ext. 1049 http://www.cts-design.com -- Este mensaje ha sido analizado por MailScanner en busca de virus y otros contenidos peligrosos, y se considera que está limpio. MailScanner agradece a transtec Computers por su apoyo. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ghetto Java: http://www.ghettojava.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The Mytical stagnation
Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. So the problem seems to be that two groups trying to achieve the same thing have come together and merged. Hang on a sec that's NOT a problem. The struts guys saw that webworks was good and adopted it. GREAT, BRILLIANT! They are DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THE USERS, i.e. US! Just because you switch to a new track does NOT mean you have stagnated! It means you are moving foward in a positive manner. How on earth can that be a bad thing and how on earth can such obvious progress forward be stagnation! By Jon's logic Windows development stagnated when the Windows ME code-base was abandoned and MS have serious questions to answer as to why they moved on to a better technology (WinNT Code Base). Not to Mention Apple really stagnated when they moved from OS 9 to the NeXT based OS X. Besides, since I started using struts about 9 months ago Struts have moved on at least 5 minor versions, that's hardly stagnent now is it! Stuts is moving FORWARD, the struts code base has been STRENGTHENED by the inclusion of WebWorks, where on earth is this mythical stagnation? The only thing here that seems stagnent to me are John's posts. They are just the same thing over and over and over and over and over . again. We get it Jon, we know what you think, it's just that not everyone agrees with you and no matter how many times you say the same thing everyone will NEVER agree with you! This topic is dead, it has been for weeks, can we now please do the honourable thing and bury it! Bart. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Bart Busschots wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. I'm not precisely whining about that. Anyway, I have one question that intrigues me. Did you understand what was going on with this before today? I mean, this has been in the works for over 3 months, I think. So the problem seems to be that two groups trying to achieve the same thing have come together and merged. Hang on a sec that's NOT a problem. The struts guys saw that webworks was good and adopted it. GREAT, BRILLIANT! They are DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THE USERS, i.e. US! Well, Bart, Webwork has been there for years, available for guys like you to use. The Struts guys didn't do the work to make that technology come about. That was done by the Webwork guys of course. They're not making anything available to you that wasn't already available. So, all this stuff about BRILLIANT, shouting this in all caps, seems a tad over the top to me... The only thing that's going on is that Struts 1.x fell way behind being the state of the art. Due to its visibility/projection non-technical assets, it was able to attract new users, like you -- as recently as 9 months ago, despite being technically obsolete. Now you've made an investment, building applications on top of Struts 1.x and it's brilliant that they move to the Webwork codebase (relabelling that as Struts Action 2.) BUT you could have simply avoided all the bother -- if you knew what was going on -- by using Webwork in the first place! Just because you switch to a new track does NOT mean you have stagnated! It means you are moving foward in a positive manner. How on earth can that be a bad thing and how on earth can such obvious progress forward be stagnation! Well, there are various issues here. You have the fact that the innovative work was done elsewhere, yet the community that, somehow, despite its built-in advantages, was not able to innovate, swallows the community that did the innovative work, and imposes their culture and project management practices on them. This is, in general, a kind of problem IMO. This discussion originated in the context of discussing open source project management. Various Struts/ASF bigwigs were being -- at least AFAICS -- quite arrogant about the so-called Apache Way being the last word in how everything has to be done. This ultimately got me questioning openly how on earth they can say this. In this Struts/Webwork merger, you have a tacit acceptance of the fact that the developer community that was presumably doing things according to the Apache Way (I mean Struts here) did not innovate, and ended up having to bring in a codebase not developed at ASF (Webwork) in order to have something reasonably up-to-date to offer. Yet you will still hear this people saying: The Apache Way is X and pointing you to pages about this like they were scripture. So, my pressing them about the Struts 1.x codebase and that it stagnated occurred in that context. You really have to understand the context in which conversations developed. By Jon's logic Windows development stagnated when the Windows ME code-base was abandoned and MS have serious questions to answer as to why they moved on to a better technology (WinNT Code Base). Not to Mention Apple really stagnated when they moved from OS 9 to the NeXT based OS X. Well, in both cases, there was a clear migration path offered to users and I think there was far more clarity about what was going on. Correct me if I'm wrong, but before I brought this up, you didn't really understand what was going on with this. So, at the very least, the communication with users has been terrible. In any case, I am not whining that the superior technology (Webwork in this case) is going to replace the inferior technology (Struts 1.x). That's not exactly my point. In terms of the overall open source ecology, I have some real misgivings about a team that failed to innovate imposing its culture and project management practices on the community that really was able to innovate and be at the cutting edge. This is problematic. Again, you have to understand the context of the discussion. Besides, since I started using struts about 9 months ago Struts have moved on at least 5 minor versions, that's hardly stagnent now is it! Well, consider this. Step back and look at it: you could simply have been using Struts 2.x for the last 9 months by using Webwork instead. So I think there's reason to look askance at what a great favor these Struts guys have done for you. You've been using technology for the last 9 months that the Struts developers themselves consider to be inferior. Stuts is moving FORWARD, the struts code base has been STRENGTHENED by the inclusion of WebWorks, It's not an inclusion, Bart. The Webwork codebase is simply replacing
Re: The Mytical stagnation
On 3/29/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. And you see it wrongly. Either you came late into this and could not be bothered to check the archives or your attention span is so short that you have forgotten already. It all started when some Struts committers described their relatively closed environment (limiting who could contribute) and Jonathan wondered aloud whether that lack of openness had been a contributing factor to Struts decline. The question was never addressed because, in the inmortal words of one of the defenders of the faith, the question is invalid. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Mytical stagnation
This topic has become stale, in my opinion, and I do not understand why people continue to participate in it. When people attempt to have a successful discussion, there is usually a goal to attain, but I am unable to discern what serious goal there is in telling the commiters they are, in so many words, lousy, a failure, makers of bad products, the fathers of stagnation, betrayers of their foundation, etc. :-) Discussions can be alot of fun and productive and bear good fruit, but discussions, like fruit, also wither after a season and I think the season is well underway for all the participants to just accept that you've been heard, not everyone will agree, and finger-pointing isn't productive. -- Paul --- Al Eridani [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 3/29/06, Bart Busschots [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. And you see it wrongly. Either you came late into this and could not be bothered to check the archives or your attention span is so short that you have forgotten already. It all started when some Struts committers described their relatively closed environment (limiting who could contribute) and Jonathan wondered aloud whether that lack of openness had been a contributing factor to Struts decline. The question was never addressed because, in the inmortal words of one of the defenders of the faith, the question is invalid. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Bart Busschots wrote: OK, I'm keeping this short: 1) No one put a gun to the WebWorks guys and made them become part of struts, they chose that True, though I never claimed that a gun was put to anybody's head. 2) The struts team now contains the WebWorks guys right? So there is no division, they are the one team. This is true. However, they have not really worked as a team before. We do not know what the result will be. 3) The reason I choose struts is because struts does things the Apache way. I have great faith in the Apache way and that is not un-founded faith, just look at the Apache Web server! It is my considered view that your faith in the Apache Way is misguided. Especially if it is based on the In particular, the Apache web server, written in C, has nothing to do with something like Struts. 4) Being at the bleeding edge is not always a good thing. Stuts does what it does well. I am very happy with the 1.X framework, it has worked well for me and massively simplified a complex task. There may be something more cutting edge out there but that does not make it better to use. Support and availability of experts are often more important factors and Struts has more to offer in that field than WebWorks did. If you are happy and think you made the right decision, that is wonderful and I will not argue with you. 5) The merger/takeover is great for both Struts and WebWorks. Struts gets the advangages of WebWorks code and WebWorks gets the advantage of all the non-code stuff that Struts have obviously gotten right. They have a great brand that is recognised! Yes, this reflects the official reasoning behind it. 6) I don't care about the personalities involved. As long as Struts works all is well. I will judge the new merged Struts team by the code they produce from here forward, not what half the team did or did not do in the past. Time will tell, just let them get on with the task at hand and let us all get on with our tasks ... building Web Apps! That is not unreasonable either. Peace and good will to all men. One question, Bart. You didn't answer me before on this. Before today, did you understand what was going on with this Struts/Webwork stuff? I am curious about this. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Bart. Jonathan Revusky wrote: Bart Busschots wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. I'm not precisely whining about that. Anyway, I have one question that intrigues me. Did you understand what was going on with this before today? I mean, this has been in the works for over 3 months, I think. So the problem seems to be that two groups trying to achieve the same thing have come together and merged. Hang on a sec that's NOT a problem. The struts guys saw that webworks was good and adopted it. GREAT, BRILLIANT! They are DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THE USERS, i.e. US! Well, Bart, Webwork has been there for years, available for guys like you to use. The Struts guys didn't do the work to make that technology come about. That was done by the Webwork guys of course. They're not making anything available to you that wasn't already available. So, all this stuff about BRILLIANT, shouting this in all caps, seems a tad over the top to me... The only thing that's going on is that Struts 1.x fell way behind being the state of the art. Due to its visibility/projection non-technical assets, it was able to attract new users, like you -- as recently as 9 months ago, despite being technically obsolete. Now you've made an investment, building applications on top of Struts 1.x and it's brilliant that they move to the Webwork codebase (relabelling that as Struts Action 2.) BUT you could have simply avoided all the bother -- if you knew what was going on -- by using Webwork in the first place! Just because you switch to a new track does NOT mean you have stagnated! It means you are moving foward in a positive manner. How on earth can that be a bad thing and how on earth can such obvious progress forward be stagnation! Well, there are various issues here. You have the fact that the innovative work was done elsewhere, yet the community that, somehow, despite its built-in advantages, was not able to innovate, swallows the community that did the innovative work, and imposes their culture and project management practices on them. This is, in general, a kind of problem IMO. This discussion originated in the context of discussing open source project management. Various Struts/ASF bigwigs were being -- at least AFAICS -- quite arrogant about the so-called Apache Way being the last word in how everything has to be done. This ultimately got me questioning openly how on earth they can say this. In this Struts/Webwork merger, you have a tacit acceptance of the
Re: The Mytical stagnation
To answer your question, not in any detail no. I just knew struts was incorporatng another project. I didn't care about the details then and I still don't now. Jonathan Revusky wrote: Bart Busschots wrote: OK, I'm keeping this short: 1) No one put a gun to the WebWorks guys and made them become part of struts, they chose that True, though I never claimed that a gun was put to anybody's head. 2) The struts team now contains the WebWorks guys right? So there is no division, they are the one team. This is true. However, they have not really worked as a team before. We do not know what the result will be. 3) The reason I choose struts is because struts does things the Apache way. I have great faith in the Apache way and that is not un-founded faith, just look at the Apache Web server! It is my considered view that your faith in the Apache Way is misguided. Especially if it is based on the In particular, the Apache web server, written in C, has nothing to do with something like Struts. 4) Being at the bleeding edge is not always a good thing. Stuts does what it does well. I am very happy with the 1.X framework, it has worked well for me and massively simplified a complex task. There may be something more cutting edge out there but that does not make it better to use. Support and availability of experts are often more important factors and Struts has more to offer in that field than WebWorks did. If you are happy and think you made the right decision, that is wonderful and I will not argue with you. 5) The merger/takeover is great for both Struts and WebWorks. Struts gets the advangages of WebWorks code and WebWorks gets the advantage of all the non-code stuff that Struts have obviously gotten right. They have a great brand that is recognised! Yes, this reflects the official reasoning behind it. 6) I don't care about the personalities involved. As long as Struts works all is well. I will judge the new merged Struts team by the code they produce from here forward, not what half the team did or did not do in the past. Time will tell, just let them get on with the task at hand and let us all get on with our tasks ... building Web Apps! That is not unreasonable either. Peace and good will to all men. One question, Bart. You didn't answer me before on this. Before today, did you understand what was going on with this Struts/Webwork stuff? I am curious about this. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Bart. Jonathan Revusky wrote: Bart Busschots wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. I'm not precisely whining about that. Anyway, I have one question that intrigues me. Did you understand what was going on with this before today? I mean, this has been in the works for over 3 months, I think. So the problem seems to be that two groups trying to achieve the same thing have come together and merged. Hang on a sec that's NOT a problem. The struts guys saw that webworks was good and adopted it. GREAT, BRILLIANT! They are DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THE USERS, i.e. US! Well, Bart, Webwork has been there for years, available for guys like you to use. The Struts guys didn't do the work to make that technology come about. That was done by the Webwork guys of course. They're not making anything available to you that wasn't already available. So, all this stuff about BRILLIANT, shouting this in all caps, seems a tad over the top to me... The only thing that's going on is that Struts 1.x fell way behind being the state of the art. Due to its visibility/projection non-technical assets, it was able to attract new users, like you -- as recently as 9 months ago, despite being technically obsolete. Now you've made an investment, building applications on top of Struts 1.x and it's brilliant that they move to the Webwork codebase (relabelling that as Struts Action 2.) BUT you could have simply avoided all the bother -- if you knew what was going on -- by using Webwork in the first place! Just because you switch to a new track does NOT mean you have stagnated! It means you are moving foward in a positive manner. How on earth can that be a bad thing and how on earth can such obvious progress forward be stagnation! Well, there are various issues here. You have the fact that the innovative work was done elsewhere, yet the community that, somehow, despite its built-in advantages, was not able to innovate, swallows the community that did the innovative work, and imposes their culture and project management practices on them. This is, in general, a kind of problem IMO. This discussion originated in the context of discussing open source project management. Various Struts/ASF bigwigs were being -- at least AFAICS -- quite arrogant about the so-called Apache
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Bart Busschots wrote: To answer your question, not in any detail no. I just knew struts was incorporatng another project. Okay, thank you for sharing that. I didn't care about the details then and I still don't now. That's odd. For a guy who is this apathetic about the whole thing, you seemed kind of passionate just now. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Jonathan Revusky wrote: Bart Busschots wrote: OK, I'm keeping this short: 1) No one put a gun to the WebWorks guys and made them become part of struts, they chose that True, though I never claimed that a gun was put to anybody's head. 2) The struts team now contains the WebWorks guys right? So there is no division, they are the one team. This is true. However, they have not really worked as a team before. We do not know what the result will be. 3) The reason I choose struts is because struts does things the Apache way. I have great faith in the Apache way and that is not un-founded faith, just look at the Apache Web server! It is my considered view that your faith in the Apache Way is misguided. Especially if it is based on the In particular, the Apache web server, written in C, has nothing to do with something like Struts. 4) Being at the bleeding edge is not always a good thing. Stuts does what it does well. I am very happy with the 1.X framework, it has worked well for me and massively simplified a complex task. There may be something more cutting edge out there but that does not make it better to use. Support and availability of experts are often more important factors and Struts has more to offer in that field than WebWorks did. If you are happy and think you made the right decision, that is wonderful and I will not argue with you. 5) The merger/takeover is great for both Struts and WebWorks. Struts gets the advangages of WebWorks code and WebWorks gets the advantage of all the non-code stuff that Struts have obviously gotten right. They have a great brand that is recognised! Yes, this reflects the official reasoning behind it. 6) I don't care about the personalities involved. As long as Struts works all is well. I will judge the new merged Struts team by the code they produce from here forward, not what half the team did or did not do in the past. Time will tell, just let them get on with the task at hand and let us all get on with our tasks ... building Web Apps! That is not unreasonable either. Peace and good will to all men. One question, Bart. You didn't answer me before on this. Before today, did you understand what was going on with this Struts/Webwork stuff? I am curious about this. Jonathan Revusky -- lead developer, FreeMarker project, http://freemarker.org/ Bart. Jonathan Revusky wrote: Bart Busschots wrote: Right, as I see it this all boils down to Jon whinning that the struts guys are adopting WebWorks for the basis of struts 2 rather than Struts 1.X. I'm not precisely whining about that. Anyway, I have one question that intrigues me. Did you understand what was going on with this before today? I mean, this has been in the works for over 3 months, I think. So the problem seems to be that two groups trying to achieve the same thing have come together and merged. Hang on a sec that's NOT a problem. The struts guys saw that webworks was good and adopted it. GREAT, BRILLIANT! They are DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THE USERS, i.e. US! Well, Bart, Webwork has been there for years, available for guys like you to use. The Struts guys didn't do the work to make that technology come about. That was done by the Webwork guys of course. They're not making anything available to you that wasn't already available. So, all this stuff about BRILLIANT, shouting this in all caps, seems a tad over the top to me... The only thing that's going on is that Struts 1.x fell way behind being the state of the art. Due to its visibility/projection non-technical assets, it was able to attract new users, like you -- as recently as 9 months ago, despite being technically obsolete. Now you've made an investment, building applications on top of Struts 1.x and it's brilliant that they move to the Webwork codebase (relabelling that as Struts Action 2.) BUT you could have simply avoided all the bother -- if you knew what was going on -- by using Webwork in the first place! Just because you switch to a new track does NOT mean you have stagnated! It means you are moving foward in a positive manner. How on earth can that be a bad thing and how on earth can such obvious progress forward be stagnation! Well, there are various issues here. You have the fact that the innovative work was done elsewhere, yet the community that, somehow, despite its built-in advantages, was not able to innovate, swallows the community that did the innovative work, and imposes their culture and project management
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Jonathan Revusky wrote: [...] and I will not argue with you. Oh ha ha, another Jonathon Revusky impersonator. But you slipped up here, didn't you! Dave - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The Mytical stagnation
Jon, I think most of use were well aware of the merger. See : http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-userm=113321040221316w=2 We've hashed over this before you showed up: and this : http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=11334881332r=1w=2 You might want search our archive a bit. Anyway, I have one question that intrigues me. Did you understand what was going on with this before today? I mean, this has been in the works for over 3 months, I think. So the problem seems to be that two groups trying to achieve the same thing have come together and merged. Hang on a sec that's NOT a problem. The struts guys saw that webworks was good and adopted it. GREAT, BRILLIANT! They are DOING WHAT IS BEST FOR THE USERS, i.e. US! Well, Bart, Webwork has been there for years, available for guys like you to use. The Struts guys didn't do the work to make that technology come about. That was done by the Webwork guys of course. They're not making anything available to you that wasn't already available. So, all this stuff about BRILLIANT, shouting this in all caps, seems a tad over the top to me... The only thing that's going on is that Struts 1.x fell way behind being the state of the art. Due to its visibility/projection non-technical assets, it was able to attract new users, like you -- as recently as 9 months ago, despite being technically obsolete. Now you've made an investment, building applications on top of Struts 1.x and it's brilliant that they move to the Webwork codebase (relabelling that as Struts Action 2.) BUT you could have simply avoided all the bother -- if you knew what was going on -- by using Webwork in the first place! Just because you switch to a new track does NOT mean you have stagnated! It means you are moving foward in a positive manner. How on earth can that be a bad thing and how on earth can such obvious progress forward be stagnation! Well, there are various issues here. You have the fact that the innovative work was done elsewhere, yet the community that, somehow, despite its built-in advantages, was not able to innovate, swallows the community that did the innovative work, and imposes their culture and project management practices on them. This is, in general, a kind of problem IMO. This discussion originated in the context of discussing open source project management. Various Struts/ASF bigwigs were being -- at least AFAICS -- quite arrogant about the so-called Apache Way being the last word in how everything has to be done. This ultimately got me questioning openly how on earth they can say this. In this Struts/Webwork merger, you have a tacit acceptance of the fact that the developer community that was presumably doing things according to the Apache Way (I mean Struts here) did not innovate, and ended up having to bring in a codebase not developed at ASF (Webwork) in order to have something reasonably up-to-date to offer. Yet you will still hear this people saying: The Apache Way is X and pointing you to pages about this like they were scripture. So, my pressing them about the Struts 1.x codebase and that it stagnated occurred in that context. You really have to understand the context in which conversations developed. By Jon's logic Windows development stagnated when the Windows ME code-base was abandoned and MS have serious questions to answer as to why they moved on to a better technology (WinNT Code Base). Not to Mention Apple really stagnated when they moved from OS 9 to the NeXT based OS X. Well, in both cases, there was a clear migration path offered to users and I think there was far more clarity about what was going on. Correct me if I'm wrong, but before I brought this up, you didn't really understand what was going on with this. So, at the very least, the communication with users has been terrible. In any case, I am not whining that the superior technology (Webwork in this case) is going to replace the inferior technology (Struts 1.x). That's not exactly my point. In terms of the overall open source ecology, I have some real misgivings about a team that failed to innovate imposing its culture and project management practices on the community that really was able to innovate and be at the cutting edge. This is problematic. Again, you have to understand the context of the discussion. Besides, since I started using struts about 9 months ago Struts have moved on at least 5 minor versions, that's hardly stagnent now is it! Well, consider this. Step back and look at it: you could simply have been using Struts 2.x for the last 9 months by using Webwork instead. So I think there's reason to look askance at what a great favor these Struts guys have done for you. You've been using technology for the last 9 months that the Struts developers themselves consider to be
