Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
You get very similar functionality for date/time in flowscript; also it seems that XSLT 2.0 can do this via fn:current-dateTime() http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-functions/#func-current-dateTime (Disclaimer: I have not used 2.0 - but others in this thread have; maybe they can respond here?) On 2009/05/01 at 07:49, in message 49fa8d67.8090...@lampsacos.demon.co.uk, Ken Starks k...@lampsacos.demon.co.uk wrote: oddly enough, the first example of embedded XSP in the Moczar and Aston book is to find the time with a tiny bit of embedded java. xsp:logic Date now = new Date(); /xsp:logic. ... By the way, today's date is xsp:exprnow,/xsp;exp Ken Derek Hohls wrote: Out of interest... which part of Cocoon lacks date/time awareness - the sitemap? Can't a (custom-written) java module execute/call an external program? Also not sure about directory listing - does the Directory Generator not serve in that role? On 2009/04/30 at 02:48, in message 49f99e06.40...@ucc.ie, Peter Flynn pfl...@ucc.ie wrote: Stephen Winnall wrote: [...] I've been using Cocoon almost since the start, and although there are bits I haven't grokked yet, I find it one of the most productive tools around. There are aspects of its design I disagree with (the removal of DTD-detected pipelines from v1.*, the lack of interface to the system like directory listing or date/time awareness, and the inability to execute an external program even when the program generates XML, unless you fake it via a web script), but it's flexible enough to work around most of these. Reports of XSLT's demise are much exaggerated :-) ///Peter - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
The main reason (speaking as a user) I think XSP was deprecated is that it does not fit well with the cocoon mantra of 'separation of concerns' i.e. too easy to mix in markup and code in one place (not that you have to, of course). I also used ESQ/XSP for my early DB apps, but I really find that the flowscript, plus the SQLTransformer does all that, with the added advantage (to me) of no Java being needed. Login is pretty simple with the built-in functions. Of course, these days its all Spring+Hibernate ... maybe one day I will take the giant leap needed for that!! On 2009/04/29 at 06:01, in message 49f879cc.8020...@lampsacos.demon.co.uk, Ken Starks k...@lampsacos.demon.co.uk wrote: Derek Hohls wrote: Ken I would echo most of your sentiments, except for the XSP part. I have found that the flowscript/JXT gives me all the logic/layout options I need ... without having to worry about any Java at all in my apps. I think that is why the developers decided to deprecate XSP quite a while back, though I appreciate that not everybody might think that's such a good idea! Yes I will readily admit to not having explored JXT properly. I happen to quite like ESQL and there is a short bit of XSP for a password-protected Login in the book from which I learned Coccon (Macczar and Aston) ISBN 0 672 32257 9 I don't count either of these as a real preference, its just a if it ain't broke why fix it ? feature for me. How do you use XSLT(2)? I did not think Xalan supported it yet? eg http://xml.apache.org/xalan-j/ http://www.nabble.com/Xalan-J-XSLT-2.0-status-tc5766761r4.html http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t364511-xslt-2-processors.html You can get cocoon to use saxon - other people have already replied. One of the two or three bits of non-open source software I use is a good (IMHO) XML editor, Oxygen. sometime last year, they announced that Saxon 2.0 was to be bundled with it for free. (Hooray !). Derek Ken. -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Stephen Winnall wrote: I think a lot of the anti-XSLT sentiment comes from people who don't see the point of XML. Yes, there are many of these. XML and its philosophy are far too complicated for the average designer-cum-website-hacker. This is neither a criticism of XML nor of the d-c-w-h. XML and tools which make use of it and fairly advanced IT, and enable complicated integration projects (such as one might conduct with Cocoon). If you don't have a training in IT and don't share a broader vision like the semantic web, you may crave simpler tools for simple websites. And if you think you don't need XML, you certainly won't think you need XSLT or any other XML-based technology. This is the approach which enables us to publish e-journals with the author's/editors' only concern being to create an ODT or OOXML document with the relevant stylesheet. The ability of Cocoon (and related technologies) to hide the bumpy bits us a huge advantage. I agree with the point in previous posts about Cocoon's learning curve being too daunting. I wonder if it would be easier if we had more XML-based tools which hid XML itself from the user. For example, graphical tools for the sitemap or for generating XSLT which hide the grisly XML bits from the user. Speaking personally, I don't feel that XML is a thing of beauty on the surface: but it certainly has deeper virtues! IMHE the attempts to create a purely visual d'n'd XSLT-generating interface are only useful at the upper levels (eg positioning a heading, formatting a list). I'm not sure it would provide any advantage when it comes to the lower levels where you need to combine logic and layout, such as conditionally enabling a portlet fragment inside a banner component which itself is subject to several layers of conditionality. But someone may yet crack that one. I've been using Cocoon almost since the start, and although there are bits I haven't grokked yet, I find it one of the most productive tools around. There are aspects of its design I disagree with (the removal of DTD-detected pipelines from v1.*, the lack of interface to the system like directory listing or date/time awareness, and the inability to execute an external program even when the program generates XML, unless you fake it via a web script), but it's flexible enough to work around most of these. Reports of XSLT's demise are much exaggerated :-) ///Peter - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Out of interest... which part of Cocoon lacks date/time awareness - the sitemap? Can't a (custom-written) java module execute/call an external program? Also not sure about directory listing - does the Directory Generator not serve in that role? On 2009/04/30 at 02:48, in message 49f99e06.40...@ucc.ie, Peter Flynn pfl...@ucc.ie wrote: Stephen Winnall wrote: [...] I've been using Cocoon almost since the start, and although there are bits I haven't grokked yet, I find it one of the most productive tools around. There are aspects of its design I disagree with (the removal of DTD-detected pipelines from v1.*, the lack of interface to the system like directory listing or date/time awareness, and the inability to execute an external program even when the program generates XML, unless you fake it via a web script), but it's flexible enough to work around most of these. Reports of XSLT's demise are much exaggerated :-) ///Peter -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
oddly enough, the first example of embedded XSP in the Moczar and Aston book is to find the time with a tiny bit of embedded java. xsp:logic Date now = new Date(); /xsp:logic. ... By the way, today's date is xsp:exprnow,/xsp;exp -- I have also used the considerable date/time functionality of postgreSQL to construct entire (virtual) tables for a calendar - then imported them into the cocoon pipeline. (i can't remember off hand which approach is done just once, and which is re-done on-the-fly at every refresh if you want time to the centisecond as well as date) Ken Derek Hohls wrote: Out of interest... which part of Cocoon lacks date/time awareness - the sitemap? Can't a (custom-written) java module execute/call an external program? Also not sure about directory listing - does the Directory Generator not serve in that role? On 2009/04/30 at 02:48, in message 49f99e06.40...@ucc.ie, Peter Flynn pfl...@ucc.ie wrote: Stephen Winnall wrote: [...] I've been using Cocoon almost since the start, and although there are bits I haven't grokked yet, I find it one of the most productive tools around. There are aspects of its design I disagree with (the removal of DTD-detected pipelines from v1.*, the lack of interface to the system like directory listing or date/time awareness, and the inability to execute an external program even when the program generates XML, unless you fake it via a web script), but it's flexible enough to work around most of these. Reports of XSLT's demise are much exaggerated :-) ///Peter - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Yes it is. Just add the saxon-transformer to your sitemap, add the necessary lines in cocoon.xconf and make sure you are using the correct transformer in your pipelines have installed the appropriate jar in you lib-folder. It also works to do a quick google on the subject (apache cocoon saxon): http://wiki.apache.org/cocoon/Saxon I'm using 2.1.11, saxon7 and this is how I implemented it sitemap.xmap map:transformer logger=sitemap.transformer.xsltal name=xsltal pool-max=8 src=org.apache.cocoon.transformation.TraxTransformer default-srcresource://org/apache/cocoon/blocks/xsltal/resources/tal2xslt.xsl/default-src use-request-parametersfalse/use-request-parameters use-session-parametersfalse/use-session-parameters use-cookie-parametersfalse/use-cookie-parameters xslt-processor-rolesaxon/xslt-processor-role check-includestrue/check-includes transformer-factorynet.sf.saxon.TransformerFactoryImpl/transformer-factory /map:transformer cocoon.xconf component logger=core.xslt role=org.apache.excalibur.xml.xslt.XSLTProcessor/saxon class=org.apache.cocoon.components.xslt.TraxProcessor parameter name=use-store value=true/ parameter name=transformer-factory value=net.sf.saxon.TransformerFactoryImpl/ /component On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Stan Dyck stan.d...@gmail.com wrote: It is possible to make cocoon use Saxon, which implements xslt 2.0, as it's underlying xslt processor. StanD. Derek Hohls wrote: Ken I would echo most of your sentiments, except for the XSP part. I have found that the flowscript/JXT gives me all the logic/layout options I need ... without having to worry about any Java at all in my apps. I think that is why the developers decided to deprecate XSP quite a while back, though I appreciate that not everybody might think that's such a good idea! How do you use XSLT(2)? I did not think Xalan supported it yet? eg http://xml.apache.org/xalan-j/ http://www.nabble.com/Xalan-J-XSLT-2.0-status-tc5766761r4.html http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t364511-xslt-2-processors.html Derek On 2009/04/25 at 10:32, in message 49f2ca9d.2090...@lampsacos.demon.co.uk, Ken Starks k...@lampsacos.demon.co.uk wrote: Antonio Gallardo wrote: hi Derek, Comparing XSLT with JSP is like comparing pears and apples. XSLT is quite useful for some tasks and weak in others. The same apply for JSP. We still use XSLT even if you have JSP at hand. In cocoon particular wolrd, perhaps he should compare JSP with XSP. I did not read the whole article, but looks the author forgot there is a XSLT 2.0. Anyway, who cares? ;) About freemaker, I guess there are some threads about it in our mail archive [1]. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo. [1] http://cocoon.markmail.org/search/?q=freemaker I hardly think 'pears and apples' are a good simile, they are far too similar to one another. Perhaps 'oranges and apples' or even 'sausages and marmalade'. By the way, sausages and marmalade go very well together. My main complaint is that XSP is deprecated in Cocoon 2.2, in fact it seems to be sneered-at. For me, it provides just the tiny amount of Java I need - I still don't want to learn the language thoroughly. It comes below both ruby and even Acrobat javascript for me. Python has always been more useful, and now the adobe Flex environment looks pretty alluring - in all of these I use XML, and often it is obtained from a localhost Cocoon pipeline. Cocoon 2.1.x - love it XSLT (2) - love it XSP - love it Eclipse, XML, XML-Schema, other XML tools - love 'em all ! Cocoon 2.2 - too much java needed, not backward-compatible enough, (Database connection) a few other grumbles. will re-evaluate it in 12 months or so, but I have already wasted too much time for this year Cocoon 2.3 - not powerful enough for my needs, last time I looked Bye for now, Ken. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org -- Bart Remmerie +32 (0477) 78.88.76 remme...@gmail.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Derek Hohls wrote: Ken I would echo most of your sentiments, except for the XSP part. I have found that the flowscript/JXT gives me all the logic/layout options I need ... without having to worry about any Java at all in my apps. I think that is why the developers decided to deprecate XSP quite a while back, though I appreciate that not everybody might think that's such a good idea! Yes I will readily admit to not having explored JXT properly. I happen to quite like ESQL and there is a short bit of XSP for a password-protected Login in the book from which I learned Coccon (Macczar and Aston) ISBN 0 672 32257 9 I don't count either of these as a real preference, its just a if it ain't broke why fix it ? feature for me. How do you use XSLT(2)? I did not think Xalan supported it yet? eg http://xml.apache.org/xalan-j/ http://www.nabble.com/Xalan-J-XSLT-2.0-status-tc5766761r4.html http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t364511-xslt-2-processors.html You can get cocoon to use saxon - other people have already replied. One of the two or three bits of non-open source software I use is a good (IMHO) XML editor, Oxygen. sometime last year, they announced that Saxon 2.0 was to be bundled with it for free. (Hooray !). Derek Ken. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Hi Derek, Thanks for spotting out my error. I was wondering why there where too few related mails about Freemarker in cocoon. :P Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo Derek Hohls escribió: Antonio True - but it would be useful to tell the original author this as well! PS it is Freemarker (not maker) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Ken I would echo most of your sentiments, except for the XSP part. I have found that the flowscript/JXT gives me all the logic/layout options I need ... without having to worry about any Java at all in my apps. I think that is why the developers decided to deprecate XSP quite a while back, though I appreciate that not everybody might think that's such a good idea! How do you use XSLT(2)? I did not think Xalan supported it yet? eg http://xml.apache.org/xalan-j/ http://www.nabble.com/Xalan-J-XSLT-2.0-status-tc5766761r4.html http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t364511-xslt-2-processors.html Derek On 2009/04/25 at 10:32, in message 49f2ca9d.2090...@lampsacos.demon.co.uk, Ken Starks k...@lampsacos.demon.co.uk wrote: Antonio Gallardo wrote: hi Derek, Comparing XSLT with JSP is like comparing pears and apples. XSLT is quite useful for some tasks and weak in others. The same apply for JSP. We still use XSLT even if you have JSP at hand. In cocoon particular wolrd, perhaps he should compare JSP with XSP. I did not read the whole article, but looks the author forgot there is a XSLT 2.0. Anyway, who cares? ;) About freemaker, I guess there are some threads about it in our mail archive [1]. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo. [1] http://cocoon.markmail.org/search/?q=freemaker I hardly think 'pears and apples' are a good simile, they are far too similar to one another. Perhaps 'oranges and apples' or even 'sausages and marmalade'. By the way, sausages and marmalade go very well together. My main complaint is that XSP is deprecated in Cocoon 2.2, in fact it seems to be sneered-at. For me, it provides just the tiny amount of Java I need - I still don't want to learn the language thoroughly. It comes below both ruby and even Acrobat javascript for me. Python has always been more useful, and now the adobe Flex environment looks pretty alluring - in all of these I use XML, and often it is obtained from a localhost Cocoon pipeline. Cocoon 2.1.x - love it XSLT (2) - love it XSP - love it Eclipse, XML, XML-Schema, other XML tools - love 'em all ! Cocoon 2.2 - too much java needed, not backward-compatible enough, (Database connection) a few other grumbles. will re-evaluate it in 12 months or so, but I have already wasted too much time for this year Cocoon 2.3 - not powerful enough for my needs, last time I looked Bye for now, Ken. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Antonio True - but it would be useful to tell the original author this as well! PS it is Freemarker (not maker) [1] http://cocoon.markmail.org/search/?q=freemarker On 2009/04/24 at 10:07, in message 49f21bea.7030...@agssa.net, Antonio Gallardo agalla...@agssa.net wrote: hi Derek, Comparing XSLT with JSP is like comparing pears and apples. XSLT is quite useful for some tasks and weak in others. The same apply for JSP. We still use XSLT even if you have JSP at hand. In cocoon particular wolrd, perhaps he should compare JSP with XSP. I did not read the whole article, but looks the author forgot there is a XSLT 2.0. Anyway, who cares? ;) About freemaker, I guess there are some threads about it in our mail archive [1]. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo. [1] http://cocoon.markmail.org/search/?q=freemaker Derek Hohls escribió: At least, according to this article: http://java.dzone.com/news/death-xslt-web-frameworks Maybe some of the developers, or other power users here, would like to comment at this blog - I see Cocoon also gets a dig in the ribs ... Derek PS I'm also curious about the package mentioned a number of times: http://freemarker.org/ Anyone used it? Is it compatible with Cocoon and if so how? (seems to create really fast transforms of XML documents) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
It is possible to make cocoon use Saxon, which implements xslt 2.0, as it's underlying xslt processor. StanD. Derek Hohls wrote: Ken I would echo most of your sentiments, except for the XSP part. I have found that the flowscript/JXT gives me all the logic/layout options I need ... without having to worry about any Java at all in my apps. I think that is why the developers decided to deprecate XSP quite a while back, though I appreciate that not everybody might think that's such a good idea! How do you use XSLT(2)? I did not think Xalan supported it yet? eg http://xml.apache.org/xalan-j/ http://www.nabble.com/Xalan-J-XSLT-2.0-status-tc5766761r4.html http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t364511-xslt-2-processors.html Derek On 2009/04/25 at 10:32, in message 49f2ca9d.2090...@lampsacos.demon.co.uk, Ken Starks k...@lampsacos.demon.co.uk wrote: Antonio Gallardo wrote: hi Derek, Comparing XSLT with JSP is like comparing pears and apples. XSLT is quite useful for some tasks and weak in others. The same apply for JSP. We still use XSLT even if you have JSP at hand. In cocoon particular wolrd, perhaps he should compare JSP with XSP. I did not read the whole article, but looks the author forgot there is a XSLT 2.0. Anyway, who cares? ;) About freemaker, I guess there are some threads about it in our mail archive [1]. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo. [1] http://cocoon.markmail.org/search/?q=freemaker I hardly think 'pears and apples' are a good simile, they are far too similar to one another. Perhaps 'oranges and apples' or even 'sausages and marmalade'. By the way, sausages and marmalade go very well together. My main complaint is that XSP is deprecated in Cocoon 2.2, in fact it seems to be sneered-at. For me, it provides just the tiny amount of Java I need - I still don't want to learn the language thoroughly. It comes below both ruby and even Acrobat javascript for me. Python has always been more useful, and now the adobe Flex environment looks pretty alluring - in all of these I use XML, and often it is obtained from a localhost Cocoon pipeline. Cocoon 2.1.x - love it XSLT (2) - love it XSP - love it Eclipse, XML, XML-Schema, other XML tools - love 'em all ! Cocoon 2.2 - too much java needed, not backward-compatible enough, (Database connection) a few other grumbles. will re-evaluate it in 12 months or so, but I have already wasted too much time for this year Cocoon 2.3 - not powerful enough for my needs, last time I looked Bye for now, Ken. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Stephen Winnall wrote: I think a lot of the anti-XSLT sentiment comes from people who don't see the point of XML. XML and its philosophy are far too complicated for the average designer-cum-website-hacker. This is neither a criticism of XML nor of the d-c-w-h. XML and tools which make use of it and fairly advanced IT, and enable complicated integration projects (such as one might conduct with Cocoon). If you don't have a training in IT and don't share a broader vision like the semantic web, you may crave simpler tools for simple websites. And if you think you don't need XML, you certainly won't think you need XSLT or any other XML-based technology. I agree with the point in previous posts about Cocoon's learning curve being too daunting. I wonder if it would be easier if we had more XML-based tools which hid XML itself from the user. For example, graphical tools for the sitemap or for generating XSLT which hide the grisly XML bits from the user. Speaking personally, I don't feel that XML is a thing of beauty on the surface: but it certainly has deeper virtues! Just some idle rambling on a Saturday evening... Steve - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org An interesting post, this one, in the light of the two bits of cocoon-based training I shall be (or hope to be) giving over the summer. It is after a bit ( OK, a lot) of arm-twisting by me that my clients have agreed - I hope - to allow a Cocoon 2.1.x installation on their server. First batch of training - true Geeks, all. Not all, possibly none of them, 'into' XML Second batch of training - a little girl of 10 years, who came asking for advice on typesetting a few songs she and a friend have composed. Just guitar chords so far, but there is a line of melody too. I hope to teach her abc notation (shouldn't be too difficult) and then put it through the cocoon abc / midi / ... system that comes as an example. Of course - she is ten, and not a geek - I shall write the pipelines, all she will have to do is press buttons, and edit text files. This little girl, to me, is the real cocoon customer, not the 'average designer-cum-website-hacker'. She is the one that, by the magic of Cocoon, will get more out of the computer than she puts in. (P.S. shouldn't half impress her mother, too ) Bye for now, Ken. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Antonio Gallardo wrote: hi Derek, Comparing XSLT with JSP is like comparing pears and apples. XSLT is quite useful for some tasks and weak in others. The same apply for JSP. We still use XSLT even if you have JSP at hand. In cocoon particular wolrd, perhaps he should compare JSP with XSP. I did not read the whole article, but looks the author forgot there is a XSLT 2.0. Anyway, who cares? ;) About freemaker, I guess there are some threads about it in our mail archive [1]. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo. [1] http://cocoon.markmail.org/search/?q=freemaker I hardly think 'pears and apples' are a good simile, they are far too similar to one another. Perhaps 'oranges and apples' or even 'sausages and marmalade'. By the way, sausages and marmalade go very well together. My main complaint is that XSP is deprecated in Cocoon 2.2, in fact it seems to be sneered-at. For me, it provides just the tiny amount of Java I need - I still don't want to learn the language thoroughly. It comes below both ruby and even Acrobat javascript for me. Python has always been more useful, and now the adobe Flex environment looks pretty alluring - in all of these I use XML, and often it is obtained from a localhost Cocoon pipeline. Cocoon 2.1.x - love it XSLT (2) - love it XSP - love it Eclipse, XML, XML-Schema, other XML tools - love 'em all ! Cocoon 2.2 - too much java needed, not backward-compatible enough, (Database connection) a few other grumbles. will re-evaluate it in 12 months or so, but I have already wasted too much time for this year Cocoon 2.3 - not powerful enough for my needs, last time I looked Bye for now, Ken. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Hi Ken, I guess that many people feel the same way about XSP. Remember XSP is evil : http://www.nabble.com/Re:-How-can-i-activate-XSP-in-cocoon-2.2---p19457928.html http://markmail.org/message/ciwirkn5gs4lrahz From my point of view, XSP was one of the reasons of Cocoon's success, of course not the only one. And the lack of XSP block in 2.2 (and more) is one of the reasons of the recently related unattractiveness of Cocoon's new directions. André I hardly think 'pears and apples' are a good simile, they are far too similar to one another. Perhaps 'oranges and apples' or even 'sausages and marmalade'. By the way, sausages and marmalade go very well together. My main complaint is that XSP is deprecated in Cocoon 2.2, in fact it seems to be sneered-at. For me, it provides just the tiny amount of Java I need - I still don't want to learn the language thoroughly. It comes below both ruby and even Acrobat javascript for me. Python has always been more useful, and now the adobe Flex environment looks pretty alluring - in all of these I use XML, and often it is obtained from a localhost Cocoon pipeline. Cocoon 2.1.x - love it XSLT (2) - love it XSP - love it Eclipse, XML, XML-Schema, other XML tools - love 'em all ! Cocoon 2.2 - too much java needed, not backward-compatible enough, (Database connection) a few other grumbles. will re-evaluate it in 12 months or so, but I have already wasted too much time for this year Cocoon 2.3 - not powerful enough for my needs, last time I looked Bye for now, Ken. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
I think a lot of the anti-XSLT sentiment comes from people who don't see the point of XML. XML and its philosophy are far too complicated for the average designer-cum-website-hacker. This is neither a criticism of XML nor of the d-c-w-h. XML and tools which make use of it and fairly advanced IT, and enable complicated integration projects (such as one might conduct with Cocoon). If you don't have a training in IT and don't share a broader vision like the semantic web, you may crave simpler tools for simple websites. And if you think you don't need XML, you certainly won't think you need XSLT or any other XML-based technology. I agree with the point in previous posts about Cocoon's learning curve being too daunting. I wonder if it would be easier if we had more XML- based tools which hid XML itself from the user. For example, graphical tools for the sitemap or for generating XSLT which hide the grisly XML bits from the user. Speaking personally, I don't feel that XML is a thing of beauty on the surface: but it certainly has deeper virtues! Just some idle rambling on a Saturday evening... Steve - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Derek Hohls wrote: At least, according to this article: http://java.dzone.com/news/death-xslt-web-frameworks Maybe some of the developers, or other power users here, would like to comment at this blog - I see Cocoon also gets a dig in the ribs ... Without commenting on this specific article, my only general comment is that you'll find articles for specific technologies/projects and you'll find as many articles against these (I guess the most famous topic in our area is Maven). Who's is wrong and who's right? Or more important: is there such an easy answer? I definitly doubt this. There isn't such a thing as the one programming language that rules the world or the one framework that makes everyone happy and is the golden hammer. Everyone is free to use what he thinks works best for him. Ok, coming back to the original topic :) Looking at the past 9 years where I've been using Cocoon and done a lot of projects with Cocoon and XSLT, I think it was a great tool by the time. And XSLT helped a lot in getting up to speed (once you managed the high entrance barrier to Cocoon itself). There are a lot of use cases still today for XSLT when it comes to create web sites. It really helps to separate the content from the layout. But in the end that's a matter how you design your application. I see a lot of people using other frameworks than Cocoon and pass the output from that framework to XSLT after the framework has rendered the content. So I don't think that XSLT itself is dead. The attraction of Cocoon as a separate framework has decreased, but that's definitly not due to XSLT. Carsten -- Carsten Ziegeler cziege...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Carsten I had hoped comments like these would be added to the blog :) One other point, you say: The attraction of Cocoon as a separate framework has decreased, but that's definitely not due to XSLT. Why do you say Cocoon's attractiveness is decreasing... should we all be looking around for a new framework to hop onto? (I'm genuinely curious here, not trolling, because the older frameworks like JSP and Struts still seem to be going strong and so I'm wondering what it is about Cocoon that is making it :go out of fashion: ) Thanks Derek On 2009/04/24 at 08:40, in message 49f15ece.5000...@apache.org, Carsten Ziegeler cziege...@apache.org wrote: Derek Hohls wrote: At least, according to this article: http://java.dzone.com/news/death-xslt-web-frameworks Maybe some of the developers, or other power users here, would like to comment at this blog - I see Cocoon also gets a dig in the ribs ... Without commenting on this specific article, my only general comment is that you'll find articles for specific technologies/projects and you'll find as many articles against these (I guess the most famous topic in our area is Maven). Who's is wrong and who's right? Or more important: is there such an easy answer? I definitly doubt this. There isn't such a thing as the one programming language that rules the world or the one framework that makes everyone happy and is the golden hammer. Everyone is free to use what he thinks works best for him. Ok, coming back to the original topic :) Looking at the past 9 years where I've been using Cocoon and done a lot of projects with Cocoon and XSLT, I think it was a great tool by the time. And XSLT helped a lot in getting up to speed (once you managed the high entrance barrier to Cocoon itself). There are a lot of use cases still today for XSLT when it comes to create web sites. It really helps to separate the content from the layout. But in the end that's a matter how you design your application. I see a lot of people using other frameworks than Cocoon and pass the output from that framework to XSLT after the framework has rendered the content. So I don't think that XSLT itself is dead. The attraction of Cocoon as a separate framework has decreased, but that's definitly not due to XSLT. Carsten -- Carsten Ziegeler cziege...@apache.org -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Oh, and on the flip side, there's this article: http://www.onenaught.com/posts/8/xslt-in-server-side-web-frameworks (but I would guess that is preaching to the converted on this mailing list!) On 2009/04/24 at 09:03, in message 49f1805f.5ce9.00d...@csir.co.za, Derek Hohls dho...@csir.co.za wrote: Carsten I had hoped comments like these would be added to the blog :) One other point, you say: The attraction of Cocoon as a separate framework has decreased, but that's definitely not due to XSLT. Why do you say Cocoon's attractiveness is decreasing... should we all be looking around for a new framework to hop onto? (I'm genuinely curious here, not trolling, because the older frameworks like JSP and Struts still seem to be going strong and so I'm wondering what it is about Cocoon that is making it :go out of fashion: ) Thanks Derek On 2009/04/24 at 08:40, in message 49f15ece.5000...@apache.org, Carsten Ziegeler cziege...@apache.org wrote: Derek Hohls wrote: At least, according to this article: http://java.dzone.com/news/death-xslt-web-frameworks Maybe some of the developers, or other power users here, would like to comment at this blog - I see Cocoon also gets a dig in the ribs ... Without commenting on this specific article, my only general comment is that you'll find articles for specific technologies/projects and you'll find as many articles against these (I guess the most famous topic in our area is Maven). Who's is wrong and who's right? Or more important: is there such an easy answer? I definitly doubt this. There isn't such a thing as the one programming language that rules the world or the one framework that makes everyone happy and is the golden hammer. Everyone is free to use what he thinks works best for him. Ok, coming back to the original topic :) Looking at the past 9 years where I've been using Cocoon and done a lot of projects with Cocoon and XSLT, I think it was a great tool by the time. And XSLT helped a lot in getting up to speed (once you managed the high entrance barrier to Cocoon itself). There are a lot of use cases still today for XSLT when it comes to create web sites. It really helps to separate the content from the layout. But in the end that's a matter how you design your application. I see a lot of people using other frameworks than Cocoon and pass the output from that framework to XSLT after the framework has rendered the content. So I don't think that XSLT itself is dead. The attraction of Cocoon as a separate framework has decreased, but that's definitly not due to XSLT. Carsten -- Carsten Ziegeler cziege...@apache.org -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Derek Hohls wrote: Carsten I had hoped comments like these would be added to the blog :) I usually do not comment blog entries - sorry :) One other point, you say: The attraction of Cocoon as a separate framework has decreased, but that's definitely not due to XSLT. Why do you say Cocoon's attractiveness is decreasing... should we all be looking around for a new framework to hop onto? :) I think this is one of the questions that can't be answered in general and everyone has to make his own decision. There is nothing wrong with using Cocoon today and continuing using it. It's a great, solid, stable and powerful framework, there is a community behind it etc. Still today I think there is nothing out there which is as powerful as Cocoon. But on the downside are the high learning curve, missing integration with the hot stuff from today (OSGi, scripting etc.). And I think it's obvious by just looking at the developer and user list that the interest in Cocoon is definitly decreasing. If people are starting new projects or looking for something exciting they usually don't end up with Cocoon as we don't play in the technology hype market. So, if you're happy with Cocoon, use it - if you think something else is more suited for your project, use that :) Carsten -- Carsten Ziegeler cziege...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
AW: Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Dear Cocoon Community First of all I have to say that I am a Cocoon lover. We are working with this framework since 2005 and we have developed many different types of applications that include: - integration of a legacy system with WebServices - complex e-commerce solutions - graphical rendering of data with fins - or just simple web sites Our experience is that Cocoon is a stable and scalable framework. Furthermore it does a great job concerning the separation of concerns. Now I come the point. What I did not like on Cocoon was the way XSLT was used to render the final output. Therefore I developed XSLTg (an XML template engine) that centres the XML template by supporting full standard XSLT/XPATH 2.0. I took me some time to publish a documentation that is up to date. Now you can find it under http://www.xsltg.com. I am convinced that XSLTg solves many of the problems addressed in the article. Please have a look and let me know what you think about and if http://www.xsltg.com may be able to become a part of Cocoon. Many thanks in advance Raffaele PS: Be warned, my English is not really the best. Improvements are welcome, I will be happy to clarify any obscurities. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Derek Hohls [mailto:dho...@csir.co.za] Gesendet: Freitag, 24. April 2009 09:14 An: users@cocoon.apache.org Betreff: [!! SPAM] Re: XSLT is Dead ?! Oh, and on the flip side, there's this article: http://www.onenaught.com/posts/8/xslt-in-server-side-web-frameworks (but I would guess that is preaching to the converted on this mailing list!) On 2009/04/24 at 09:03, in message 49f1805f.5ce9.00d...@csir.co.za, Derek Hohls dho...@csir.co.za wrote: Carsten I had hoped comments like these would be added to the blog :) One other point, you say: The attraction of Cocoon as a separate framework has decreased, but that's definitely not due to XSLT. Why do you say Cocoon's attractiveness is decreasing... should we all be looking around for a new framework to hop onto? (I'm genuinely curious here, not trolling, because the older frameworks like JSP and Struts still seem to be going strong and so I'm wondering what it is about Cocoon that is making it :go out of fashion: ) Thanks Derek On 2009/04/24 at 08:40, in message 49f15ece.5000...@apache.org, Carsten Ziegeler cziege...@apache.org wrote: Derek Hohls wrote: At least, according to this article: http://java.dzone.com/news/death-xslt-web-frameworks Maybe some of the developers, or other power users here, would like to comment at this blog - I see Cocoon also gets a dig in the ribs ... Without commenting on this specific article, my only general comment is that you'll find articles for specific technologies/projects and you'll find as many articles against these (I guess the most famous topic in our area is Maven). Who's is wrong and who's right? Or more important: is there such an easy answer? I definitly doubt this. There isn't such a thing as the one programming language that rules the world or the one framework that makes everyone happy and is the golden hammer. Everyone is free to use what he thinks works best for him. Ok, coming back to the original topic :) Looking at the past 9 years where I've been using Cocoon and done a lot of projects with Cocoon and XSLT, I think it was a great tool by the time. And XSLT helped a lot in getting up to speed (once you managed the high entrance barrier to Cocoon itself). There are a lot of use cases still today for XSLT when it comes to create web sites. It really helps to separate the content from the layout. But in the end that's a matter how you design your application. I see a lot of people using other frameworks than Cocoon and pass the output from that framework to XSLT after the framework has rendered the content. So I don't think that XSLT itself is dead. The attraction of Cocoon as a separate framework has decreased, but that's definitly not due to XSLT. Carsten -- Carsten Ziegeler cziege...@apache.org -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers for their support. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org -- This message is subject to the CSIR's copyright terms and conditions, e-mail legal notice, and implemented Open Document Format (ODF) standard. The full disclaimer details can be found at http://www.csir.co.za/disclaimer.html. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks Transtec Computers
AW: Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Hi, I have to confirm the first part of your post. I have been using Cocoon since 1.0.8 (I think) ... those were the times with processing-instructions, plain-xsp and no sitemap whatsoever and have used it in a number of projects verry successfuly. Currently I am considering using other frameworks for my newer projects though. 1. Starting a large and complex Cocoon project without a local Cocoon-Guru is very dangerous. 2. There are so manny components involved in serving a response, that it's sometimes impossible to track errors back to the cause. 3. Even if I may be able to find these problems, it turns out that in larger projects I'm the only one permanently sorting out the problems, because I'm the only one able to find them (There is a really big difference between being able to solve a task using Cocoon and to understanding how Cocoon thinks) ... so I end up solving problems while all the others do the cool and fun stuff. 4. It is allmost impossible to find employees that are willing and able to withstad the increasingly steap learning curve. I end up assisting them more time than they save me. So from a financial point of view this is not very good. 5. The step from Cocoon 2.x to Cocoon 2.2 was at least as challenging as the step from 1.x to 2.x (from my point of view). Even if you have a full understanding of Cocoons internals, the Maven build-process, the maven-plugins needed and the changes in the project-structures gave me the impression of relearning the entire thing from scratch. I had to try settin up a Cocoon 2.2 project 4-5 times untill I finally managed to understand what I was doing (Most of the examples available only tell you what to do and not why). I have to admit that I have done Projects with Cocoon on my own, which I propably wouldn't have ben able to achieve using 4-5 Employees in the same time. I have done Projekts with 4-5 Employees and ended up in supporting and coaching them with allmost the same result als if I would have done it allone. On the bottom line, for me Cocoon is great for doing middle-sized projects on my own, because I am very familiar with the whole thing. As soon as the Project size exceeds my own working capacity and I need to do the Project with several people, I won't use Cocoon any more. Perhaps someday there will be a good Book on Cocoon 2.2 as the one done by Stephan Niedermeier which would enable me to tell my employees Here Read this and let me work ;-) ... I'd come back to Cocoon. But I have to admit that the simplicity of a Spring+(Flex+BlazeDS)/CXF+Aegis application is far more tempting for me at the moment because of its simplicity. Chris Von: Merico Raffaele [raffaele.mer...@less.ch] Gesendet: Freitag, 24. April 2009 14:17 An: users@cocoon.apache.org Betreff: AW: Re: XSLT is Dead ?! Dear Cocoon Community First of all I have to say that I am a Cocoon lover. We are working with this framework since 2005 and we have developed many different types of applications that include: - integration of a legacy system with WebServices - complex e-commerce solutions - graphical rendering of data with fins - or just simple web sites Our experience is that Cocoon is a stable and scalable framework. Furthermore it does a great job concerning the separation of concerns. Now I come the point. What I did not like on Cocoon was the way XSLT was used to render the final output. Therefore I developed XSLTg (an XML template engine) that centres the XML template by supporting full standard XSLT/XPATH 2.0. I took me some time to publish a documentation that is up to date. Now you can find it under http://www.xsltg.com. I am convinced that XSLTg solves many of the problems addressed in the article. Please have a look and let me know what you think about and if http://www.xsltg.com may be able to become a part of Cocoon. Many thanks in advance Raffaele PS: Be warned, my English is not really the best. Improvements are welcome, I will be happy to clarify any obscurities. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Derek Hohls [mailto:dho...@csir.co.za] Gesendet: Freitag, 24. April 2009 09:14 An: users@cocoon.apache.org Betreff: [!! SPAM] Re: XSLT is Dead ?! Oh, and on the flip side, there's this article: http://www.onenaught.com/posts/8/xslt-in-server-side-web-frameworks (but I would guess that is preaching to the converted on this mailing list!) On 2009/04/24 at 09:03, in message 49f1805f.5ce9.00d...@csir.co.za, Derek Hohls dho...@csir.co.za wrote: Carsten I had hoped comments like these would be added to the blog :) One other point, you say: The attraction of Cocoon as a separate framework has decreased, but that's definitely not due to XSLT. Why do you say Cocoon's attractiveness is decreasing... should we all be looking around for a new framework to hop onto? (I'm genuinely curious here, not trolling, because the older frameworks like JSP and Struts still seem to be going
AW: Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Chris I had to smile - here you say: the Maven build-process, the maven-plugins needed and the changes in the project-structures gave me the impression of relearning the entire thing from scratch. while in the next breath you talk about the simplicity of a Spring+(Flex+BlazeDS)/CXF+Aegis application - which has more API (acronyms - per - inch) than I could shake a stick at! Guess I'm just not keeping up anymore [shakes head] and I'm not (yet) convinced that its time to either move to Cocoon 2.2/3 or leave Cocoon altogether... Derek On 2009/04/24 at 03:27, in message 202a1a1e28af7c42be78cc28cf94a27501f6a92...@cwareserver1.intern.c-ware.de, Christofer Dutz christofer.d...@c-ware.de wrote: Hi, I have to confirm the first part of your post. I have been using Cocoon since 1.0.8 (I think) ... those were the times with processing-instructions, plain-xsp and no sitemap whatsoever and have used it in a number of projects very successfully. Currently I am considering using other frameworks for my newer projects though. 1. Starting a large and complex Cocoon project without a local Cocoon-Guru is very dangerous. 2. There are so many components involved in serving a response, that it's sometimes impossible to track errors back to the cause. 3. Even if I may be able to find these problems, it turns out that in larger projects I'm the only one permanently sorting out the problems, because I'm the only one able to find them (There is a really big difference between being able to solve a task using Cocoon and to understanding how Cocoon thinks) ... so I end up solving problems while all the others do the cool and fun stuff. 4. It is almost impossible to find employees that are willing and able to withstand the increasingly steep learning curve. I end up assisting them more time than they save me. So from a financial point of view this is not very good. 5. The step from Cocoon 2.x to Cocoon 2.2 was at least as challenging as the step from 1.x to 2.x (from my point of view). Even if you have a full understanding of Cocoons internals, the Maven build-process, the maven-plugins needed and the changes in the project-structures gave me the impression of relearning the entire thing from scratch. I had to try setting up a Cocoon 2.2 project 4-5 times until I finally managed to understand what I was doing (Most of the examples available only tell you what to do and not why). I have to admit that I have done Projects with Cocoon on my own, which I probably wouldn't have ben able to achieve using 4-5 Employees in the same time. I have done Projects with 4-5 Employees and ended up in supporting and coaching them with almost the same result als if I would have done it alone. On the bottom line, for me Cocoon is great for doing middle-sized projects on my own, because I am very familiar with the whole thing. As soon as the Project size exceeds my own working capacity and I need to do the Project with several people, I won't use Cocoon any more. Perhaps someday there will be a good Book on Cocoon 2.2 as the one done by Stephan Niedermeier which would enable me to tell my employees Here Read this and let me work ;-) ... I'd come back to Cocoon. But I have to admit that the simplicity of a Spring+(Flex+BlazeDS)/CXF+Aegis application is far more tempting for me at the moment because of its simplicity. Chris Von: Merico Raffaele [raffaele.mer...@less.ch] Gesendet: Freitag, 24. April 2009 14:17 An: users@cocoon.apache.org Betreff: AW: Re: XSLT is Dead ?! Dear Cocoon Community First of all I have to say that I am a Cocoon lover. We are working with this framework since 2005 and we have developed many different types of applications that include: - integration of a legacy system with WebServices - complex e-commerce solutions - graphical rendering of data with fins - or just simple web sites Our experience is that Cocoon is a stable and scalable framework. Furthermore it does a great job concerning the separation of concerns. Now I come the point. What I did not like on Cocoon was the way XSLT was used to render the final output. Therefore I developed XSLTg (an XML template engine) that centres the XML template by supporting full standard XSLT/XPATH 2.0. I took me some time to publish a documentation that is up to date. Now you can find it under http://www.xsltg.com. I am convinced that XSLTg solves many of the problems addressed in the article. Please have a look and let me know what you think about and if http://www.xsltg.com may be able to become a part of Cocoon. Many thanks in advance Raffaele PS: Be warned, my English is not really the best. Improvements are welcome, I will be happy to clarify any obscurities. -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Derek Hohls [mailto:dho...@csir.co.za] Gesendet: Freitag, 24. April 2009 09:14 An: users@cocoon.apache.org Betreff: [!! SPAM] Re: XSLT is Dead ?! Oh, and on the flip side, there's this article: http
AW: Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Jeah .. have to admit, that the number of acronyms might have been great, but for me it is more important how hard it is to fully understand the API :-) Von: Derek Hohls [dho...@csir.co.za] Gesendet: Freitag, 24. April 2009 15:52 An: users@cocoon.apache.org Betreff: AW: Re: XSLT is Dead ?! Chris I had to smile - here you say: the Maven build-process, the maven-plugins needed and the changes in the project-structures gave me the impression of relearning the entire thing from scratch. while in the next breath you talk about the simplicity of a Spring+(Flex+BlazeDS)/CXF+Aegis application - which has more API (acronyms - per - inch) than I could shake a stick at! Guess I'm just not keeping up anymore [shakes head] and I'm not (yet) convinced that its time to either move to Cocoon 2.2/3 or leave Cocoon altogether... Derek On 2009/04/24 at 03:27, in message 202a1a1e28af7c42be78cc28cf94a27501f6a92...@cwareserver1.intern.c-ware.de, Christofer Dutz christofer.d...@c-ware.de wrote: Hi, I have to confirm the first part of your post. I have been using Cocoon since 1.0.8 (I think) ... those were the times with processing-instructions, plain-xsp and no sitemap whatsoever and have used it in a number of projects very successfully. Currently I am considering using other frameworks for my newer projects though. 1. Starting a large and complex Cocoon project without a local Cocoon-Guru is very dangerous. 2. There are so many components involved in serving a response, that it's sometimes impossible to track errors back to the cause. 3. Even if I may be able to find these problems, it turns out that in larger projects I'm the only one permanently sorting out the problems, because I'm the only one able to find them (There is a really big difference between being able to solve a task using Cocoon and to understanding how Cocoon thinks) ... so I end up solving problems while all the others do the cool and fun stuff. 4. It is almost impossible to find employees that are willing and able to withstand the increasingly steep learning curve. I end up assisting them more time than they save me. So from a financial point of view this is not very good. 5. The step from Cocoon 2.x to Cocoon 2.2 was at least as challenging as the step from 1.x to 2.x (from my point of view). Even if you have a full understanding of Cocoons internals, the Maven build-process, the maven-plugins needed and the changes in the project-structures gave me the impression of relearning the entire thing from scratch. I had to try setting up a Cocoon 2.2 project 4-5 times until I finally managed to understand what I was doing (Most of the examples available only tell you what to do and not why). I have to admit that I have done Projects with Cocoon on my own, which I probably wouldn't have ben able to achieve using 4-5 Employees in the same time. I have done Projects with 4-5 Employees and ended up in supporting and coaching them with almost the same result als if I would have done it alone. On the bottom line, for me Cocoon is great for doing middle-sized projects on my own, because I am very familiar with the whole thing. As soon as the Project size exceeds my own working capacity and I need to do the Project with several people, I won't use Cocoon any more. Perhaps someday there will be a good Book on Cocoon 2.2 as the one done by Stephan Niedermeier which would enable me to tell my employees Here Read this and let me work ;-) ... I'd come back to Cocoon. But I have to admit that the simplicity of a Spring+(Flex+BlazeDS)/CXF+Aegis application is far more tempting for me at the moment because of its simplicity. Chris Von: Merico Raffaele [raffaele.mer...@less.ch] Gesendet: Freitag, 24. April 2009 14:17 An: users@cocoon.apache.org Betreff: AW: Re: XSLT is Dead ?! Dear Cocoon Community First of all I have to say that I am a Cocoon lover. We are working with this framework since 2005 and we have developed many different types of applications that include: - integration of a legacy system with WebServices - complex e-commerce solutions - graphical rendering of data with fins - or just simple web sites Our experience is that Cocoon is a stable and scalable framework. Furthermore it does a great job concerning the separation of concerns. Now I come the point. What I did not like on Cocoon was the way XSLT was used to render the final output. Therefore I developed XSLTg (an XML template engine) that centres the XML template by supporting full standard XSLT/XPATH 2.0. I took me some time to publish a documentation that is up to date. Now you can find it under http://www.xsltg.com. I am convinced that XSLTg solves many of the problems addressed in the article. Please have a look and let me know what you think about and if http://www.xsltg.com may be able to become a part of Cocoon. Many thanks in advance Raffaele PS: Be warned, my English is not really
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Derek Hohls wrote: At least, according to this article: http://java.dzone.com/news/death-xslt-web-frameworks Maybe some of the developers, or other power users here, would like to comment at this blog - I see Cocoon also gets a dig in the ribs ... Derek I saw this also. A few of his points are simply wrong (3 and 5, though his point 4 explains a lot in that regard), but what pained me the most was this: ...from the point of view of web browser to have perfectly valid XHTML is good, but not crucial, and from the point of view of web designer or developer the DOM behind it doesn't matter at all, and making the template valid XML is of no importance. No! Producing valid xml as the final output to the browser is one of those things that *seems* unimportant...until it isn't. You never know what your html output will be used for. If you produce tag soup, then you are limiting the potential for others to do interesting and unexpected things with your pages. That's fine if that is your intent, but please consider the value of well marked up, parse-able output. In any event, I find cocoon (and xslt) useful for some things, not so much for others. I will continue to use it. End of story. StanD. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
Dear all: We have experience with Cocoon since 2.1.5. We share the common problem of learning curve, but we believe it is a great and powerful framework. We have a lot of tools developed with cocoon 2.1.x and now we want to use cocoon 2.2 for a portal and for other services. Exclusively about XSL, please download the tool from our web site developed with xsl 6 years ago. It is extremely util for our customers. The link is: http://www.codimat.com.ar/ListaDePrecios/Aplicaciones/lp02_descarga/codimat.exe Thank you very much for your comments. Victor Pergolesi Codimat S.A. Área Sistemas Web: www.codimat.com.ar Tel.: (0291) 459-2480 | 459-2424 Fax: (0291) 459-2400 | 0-800-666-42266 Don Bosco 1495 - B8003CAA Bahía Blanca - Argentina _ From: Carsten Ziegeler [mailto:cziege...@apache.org] To: users@cocoon.apache.org Sent: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 03:40:14 -0300 Subject: Re: XSLT is Dead ?! Derek Hohls wrote: At least, according to this article: http://java.dzone.com/news/death-xslt-web-frameworks Maybe some of the developers, or other power users here, would like to comment at this blog - I see Cocoon also gets a dig in the ribs ... Without commenting on this specific article, my only general comment is that you'll find articles for specific technologies/projects and you'll find as many articles against these (I guess the most famous topic in our area is Maven). Who's is wrong and who's right? Or more important: is there such an easy answer? I definitly doubt this. There isn't such a thing as the one programming language that rules the world or the one framework that makes everyone happy and is the golden hammer. Everyone is free to use what he thinks works best for him. Ok, coming back to the original topic :) Looking at the past 9 years where I've been using Cocoon and done a lot of projects with Cocoon and XSLT, I think it was a great tool by the time. And XSLT helped a lot in getting up to speed (once you managed the high entrance barrier to Cocoon itself). There are a lot of use cases still today for XSLT when it comes to create web sites. It really helps to separate the content from the layout. But in the end that's a matter how you design your application. I see a lot of people using other frameworks than Cocoon and pass the output from that framework to XSLT after the framework has rendered the content. So I don't think that XSLT itself is dead. The attraction of Cocoon as a separate framework has decreased, but that's definitly not due to XSLT. Carsten -- Carsten Ziegeler cziege...@apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org Este mensaje y sus adjuntos contienen información confidencial y son para uso exclusivo del destinatario. Si hubiese recibido este mensaje por error, o contuviera información que Ud. no desea recibir, por favor le agradecemos nos lo haga saber y lo elimine de su sistema. Cualquier inconveniente, enviarlo a librodeque...@codimat.com.ar. Este correo ha sido chequeado por el servidor de Codimat S.A. www.codimat.com.ar
Re: XSLT is Dead ?!
hi Derek, Comparing XSLT with JSP is like comparing pears and apples. XSLT is quite useful for some tasks and weak in others. The same apply for JSP. We still use XSLT even if you have JSP at hand. In cocoon particular wolrd, perhaps he should compare JSP with XSP. I did not read the whole article, but looks the author forgot there is a XSLT 2.0. Anyway, who cares? ;) About freemaker, I guess there are some threads about it in our mail archive [1]. Hope this helps. Best Regards, Antonio Gallardo. [1] http://cocoon.markmail.org/search/?q=freemaker Derek Hohls escribió: At least, according to this article: http://java.dzone.com/news/death-xslt-web-frameworks Maybe some of the developers, or other power users here, would like to comment at this blog - I see Cocoon also gets a dig in the ribs ... Derek PS I'm also curious about the package mentioned a number of times: http://freemarker.org/ Anyone used it? Is it compatible with Cocoon and if so how? (seems to create really fast transforms of XML documents) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@cocoon.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@cocoon.apache.org
