date:20131112

Le Wed, 13 Nov 2013 08:10:41 +0100,
Italo Vignoli  a écrit :

> On 13/11/13 00:45, Pedro wrote:
> 
> > Charles-H, if you are reading this: this is one of the reasons it's
> > hard do engage users. At some point they are reminded that they are
> > not developers and therefore secondary in this project...
> 
> I disagree. I am not a developer, but I have never been reminded that
> I am of secondary importance for the project. And I do think that
> this is just a biased perception based on the fact that developers
> are not good at communicating, and sometimes they use the wrong words
> (which should not happen, of course). People should not stop in front
> of the words of a developer, if they are really interested in
> contributing.
> 

+1.

Also let's all keep in mind that there are *vast* areas of the project
one can contribute without being a developer.

Best,

-- 
Charles-H. Schulz 
Co-founder, The Document Foundation,
Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
Mobile Number: +33 (0)6 98 65 54 24.


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

2013-11-12 Thread Italo Vignoli

On 13/11/13 00:45, Pedro wrote:

> Charles-H, if you are reading this: this is one of the reasons it's hard do
> engage users. At some point they are reminded that they are not developers
> and therefore secondary in this project...

I disagree. I am not a developer, but I have never been reminded that I
am of secondary importance for the project. And I do think that this is
just a biased perception based on the fact that developers are not good
at communicating, and sometimes they use the wrong words (which should
not happen, of course). People should not stop in front of the words of
a developer, if they are really interested in contributing.

-- 
Italo Vignoli - italo.vign...@gmail.com
mob +39.348.5653829 - sip/jabber it...@libreoffice.org
skype italovignoli - hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Customize an index

2013-11-12 Thread Andrew Douglas Pitonyak


Sadly, I believe that it is not possible to do this directly.

The following link discusses this:

https://forum.openoffice.org/en/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1227



On 11/12/2013 05:12 PM, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote:

Hi,

I want to have an lexical index. Mine is a somewhat particular as, in 
general, one keyword refers to one place in the book (one sentence, 
one chapter). So, instead of having only "Keyword Tab page number", 
I'd like that "Keyword" or "page number" to be an hyperlink, such as 
it is with a table of contents.


If it's not possible in the core feasnve, does an extension exist or 
some way to do that? I'm frustrated so far because I need to do a 
"classical" index, then the same with hyperlinks refering to marks, 
etc. it's not convinient at all!


Thanks for your help.

Regards,




--
Andrew Pitonyak
My Macro Document: http://www.pitonyak.org/AndrewMacro.odt
Info:  http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] presentation question

2013-11-12 Thread Joel Madero


On 11/12/2013 08:08 PM, June Newman wrote:

I have libreoffice installed on a mac with os x 10.8.  If I prepare a 
presentation and put it on a flash drive, will it play on a windows computer.  
I don't have the right adapter to connect to a digital projector, and need to 
use a windows laptop.

Thanks!


Yes - but make sure to save it in a format that a) you can verify 
formatting works and b) will work on whatever Windows machine you have 
to put it on. If the Windows machine only has powerpoint (ie. no 
LibreOffice), save the file as a ppt, and make sure to check it before 
using it on a Windows machine to ensure that formatting looks right. Try 
to check it on a machine that has the same version of Microsoft Office. 
If you save as the default odp (the open standard which LibreOffice uses 
by default) there is a good chance you'll get errors if the Windows 
machine only has Microsoft Office.



Best,
Joel

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] presentation question

2013-11-12 Thread June Newman

I have libreoffice installed on a mac with os x 10.8.  If I prepare a 
presentation and put it on a flash drive, will it play on a windows computer.  
I don't have the right adapter to connect to a digital projector, and need to 
use a windows laptop. 

Thanks! 


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey


On 11/12/13 6:35 PM, John Meyer wrote:

On 11/12/2013 6:24 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 11/12/13 4:35 PM, John Meyer wrote:

On 11/12/2013 3:02 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 11/12/13 8:50 AM, John Meyer wrote:

On 11/11/2013 11:33 AM, Ken Springer wrote:

After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of
bugs/issues.  I
wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't
have
the knowledge to fix them.  I didn't expect those problems to go
to the
head of the line.  But I *did* expect them to be put in the queue and
eventually fixed.

What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important.  BS!
It's important to me.

Let's say you have a car, and every 4th time you go to use it, it
won't
start.  You take it to your mechanic, and each time you do, he tells
you
"it's not important, he's got bigger problems to solve". Are you
going
to continue to take it to that mechanic, or are you going to find a
different mechanic?



You didn't provide links to the bugs that you provided, so I really
can't tell if they're crashes every 4th time you start, "I don't like
where the mirror is placed", or something in between problems.


It never occurred to me someone would want the bug numbers. 

  1.  44871
  2.  44986


And yes
there is a right way to tell the customer that the issue is either not
one that you get to at this moment or that the majority prefer the
solution solved another way (usually it involves a suggestion of an
alternative technique).
But even though you treat the customer as if they are always right,
that
does not mean that they are always right.  Some things the customer is
wrong on.


Indeed, sometimes they are wrong.  But, if you want them to return,
they are always right.  :-)



I'm not sure I want somebody to return enough to bend over backwards
over a feature tweak vs taking the time to look at core functionality.
I'm pretty certain I (and Libre Office) would lose more customers than
they gain.


Then...  You don't want them as a customer/user, nothing more than
that.  Now, if you were building your own business, is that something
you want to be doing, driving customers away?



If I run a Mexican restaurant and won't change the menu on the fly to
cajun/spanish/chinese/japanese for each and every random person who
comes in, that doesn't mean that I don't want them as a customer.
Similarly speaking LibreOffice wants the people who would like to see
Outlook/Publisher clones included in the suite; they've just decided
that adding those would strain the project too much.   You seem to
confuse FOSS developer with personal concierge.


No, if you ran a Mexican restaurant, you forgot to include the tortilla 
when you made the burrito.  Fix the burrito.


Or, I ordered a burrito, you gave me an uncooked fajita.

It's not about changing the menu, it's fixing the offerings on the menu.




Some things are out of budget for LO, and some things are
just preferred to be done another way.  The choice has been put in
your
court.  You can use LO or you can find another office suite that meets
your needs depending upon the issue.


As I've posted, I am looking for an alternative, and have
"candidates".LOL



And you're welcome to them.  I doubt that they're going to bend over
backwards either, particularly if they are free and open source options.


No way to know how they will react, until you use them.  Any other
perspective is an opinion/assumption.





I've been around a couple of FOSS projects in my time.  Threatening to
leave because one or two issues which don't break the program won't fly
with them either.  In fact, I don't know of many paid software companies
that will do that unless you're the one paying for the custom made software.




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.2.3


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey


On 11/12/2013 6:24 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 11/12/13 4:35 PM, John Meyer wrote:

On 11/12/2013 3:02 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 11/12/13 8:50 AM, John Meyer wrote:

On 11/11/2013 11:33 AM, Ken Springer wrote:

After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of
bugs/issues.  I
wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't 
have
the knowledge to fix them.  I didn't expect those problems to go 
to the

head of the line.  But I *did* expect them to be put in the queue and
eventually fixed.

What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important.  BS!
It's important to me.

Let's say you have a car, and every 4th time you go to use it, it 
won't

start.  You take it to your mechanic, and each time you do, he tells
you
"it's not important, he's got bigger problems to solve". Are you 
going

to continue to take it to that mechanic, or are you going to find a
different mechanic?



You didn't provide links to the bugs that you provided, so I really
can't tell if they're crashes every 4th time you start, "I don't like
where the mirror is placed", or something in between problems.


It never occurred to me someone would want the bug numbers. 

 1.  44871
 2.  44986


And yes
there is a right way to tell the customer that the issue is either not
one that you get to at this moment or that the majority prefer the
solution solved another way (usually it involves a suggestion of an
alternative technique).
But even though you treat the customer as if they are always right, 
that

does not mean that they are always right.  Some things the customer is
wrong on.


Indeed, sometimes they are wrong.  But, if you want them to return,
they are always right.  :-)



I'm not sure I want somebody to return enough to bend over backwards
over a feature tweak vs taking the time to look at core functionality.
I'm pretty certain I (and Libre Office) would lose more customers than
they gain.


Then...  You don't want them as a customer/user, nothing more than 
that.  Now, if you were building your own business, is that something 
you want to be doing, driving customers away?




If I run a Mexican restaurant and won't change the menu on the fly to 
cajun/spanish/chinese/japanese for each and every random person who 
comes in, that doesn't mean that I don't want them as a customer.   
Similarly speaking LibreOffice wants the people who would like to see 
Outlook/Publisher clones included in the suite; they've just decided 
that adding those would strain the project too much.   You seem to 
confuse FOSS developer with personal concierge.









Some things are out of budget for LO, and some things are
just preferred to be done another way.  The choice has been put in 
your

court.  You can use LO or you can find another office suite that meets
your needs depending upon the issue.


As I've posted, I am looking for an alternative, and have
"candidates".LOL



And you're welcome to them.  I doubt that they're going to bend over
backwards either, particularly if they are free and open source options.


No way to know how they will react, until you use them.  Any other 
perspective is an opinion/assumption.






I've been around a couple of FOSS projects in my time.  Threatening to 
leave because one or two issues which don't break the program won't fly 
with them either.  In fact, I don't know of many paid software companies 
that will do that unless you're the one paying for the custom made software.



--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey


On 11/12/13 4:35 PM, John Meyer wrote:

On 11/12/2013 3:02 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 11/12/13 8:50 AM, John Meyer wrote:

On 11/11/2013 11:33 AM, Ken Springer wrote:

After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of
bugs/issues.  I
wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't have
the knowledge to fix them.  I didn't expect those problems to go to the
head of the line.  But I *did* expect them to be put in the queue and
eventually fixed.

What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important.  BS!
It's important to me.

Let's say you have a car, and every 4th time you go to use it, it won't
start.  You take it to your mechanic, and each time you do, he tells
you
"it's not important, he's got bigger problems to solve".  Are you going
to continue to take it to that mechanic, or are you going to find a
different mechanic?



You didn't provide links to the bugs that you provided, so I really
can't tell if they're crashes every 4th time you start, "I don't like
where the mirror is placed", or something in between problems.


It never occurred to me someone would want the bug numbers. 

 1.  44871
 2.  44986


And yes
there is a right way to tell the customer that the issue is either not
one that you get to at this moment or that the majority prefer the
solution solved another way (usually it involves a suggestion of an
alternative technique).
But even though you treat the customer as if they are always right, that
does not mean that they are always right.  Some things the customer is
wrong on.


Indeed, sometimes they are wrong.  But, if you want them to return,
they are always right.  :-)



I'm not sure I want somebody to return enough to bend over backwards
over a feature tweak vs taking the time to look at core functionality.
I'm pretty certain I (and Libre Office) would lose more customers than
they gain.


Then...  You don't want them as a customer/user, nothing more than that. 
 Now, if you were building your own business, is that something you 
want to be doing, driving customers away?





Some things are out of budget for LO, and some things are
just preferred to be done another way.  The choice has been put in your
court.  You can use LO or you can find another office suite that meets
your needs depending upon the issue.


As I've posted, I am looking for an alternative, and have
"candidates".LOL



And you're welcome to them.  I doubt that they're going to bend over
backwards either, particularly if they are free and open source options.


No way to know how they will react, until you use them.  Any other 
perspective is an opinion/assumption.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.2.3


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey


On 11/12/13 3:24 PM, Paul wrote:

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:44:50 -0700
John Meyer  wrote:


On 11/12/2013 2:39 PM, Ken Springer wrote:


Here's the fault with this logic.

I'm going to up the number of people for bug B just for
illustrating my point.

50 people have issues with bug A.  5 people have issues with bug B.
Extrapolate...  5 people with bug C, 5 with D, all the way though
Z. You now have 125 people unhappy with 25 bugs.

If the goal is to increase the usage of LO, is it better to have 50
unhappy people over A not being fixed, or 125 unhappy people over
bugs C-Z.  Which group is more likely to pass along negative
impressions?



You also have to ask if bugs B-Z are "bugs" or feature requests.


You also now have 25 bugs to fix, which is probably going to take
*considerably* longer than just fixing bug A.

And you're forgetting about bugs/feature requests AA through ZZ, so
yes, this analogy will fall down at some point.

Again, the developers have limited resources to fix bugs, which
includes time and knowledge of the specific parts of the system, and
they have a lot of bugs and feature requests to get through. Either way
they slice it, someone is going to be unhappy. So they do the best they
can, and I'm sure that best involves a lot of discussion and decision
making, with a much better understanding of the tradeoffs than we have.


You and John have missed my point.

Features vs. bugs is irrelevant in what I'm saying.  I'm asking, in the 
example above, do you want 50 PO'ed users, or 125 PO'ed users?  Nothing 
more.  If you pick 50, then you'd rather have more PO'ed users than 
happy users.  Time and effort comes into play only from the standpoint 
of, are you willing to put in the time and effort?


This, of course, factors into my comments in 
news://news.gmane.org:119/l5u6ck$rh8$1...@ger.gmane.org  Are there enough 
resources?


Around here, we have a saying about contractors.  You can tell the 
successful ones, they drive the new pickups.  They put in far more hours 
than they get "paid" for.


LO needs to decide if they want to be successful at that level.  Paid or 
unpaid, that means lots of time.  Period.



--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.2.3


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Customize an index

2013-11-12 Thread MENGUAL Jean-Philippe


Hi,

I want to have an lexical index. Mine is a somewhat particular as, in 
general, one keyword refers to one place in the book (one sentence, one 
chapter). So, instead of having only "Keyword Tab page number", I'd like 
that "Keyword" or "page number" to be an hyperlink, such as it is with a 
table of contents.


If it's not possible in the core feasnve, does an extension exist or 
some way to do that? I'm frustrated so far because I need to do a 
"classical" index, then the same with hyperlinks refering to marks, etc. 
it's not convinient at all!


Thanks for your help.

Regards,


--

Jean-Philippe MENGUAL

accelibreinfo, votre partenaire en informatique adaptée aux déficients visuels

Mail: te...@accelibreinfo.eu

Site Web: http://www.accelibreinfo.eu


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/12/13 4:45 PM, Pedro wrote:

Hi Paul

Paul-6 wrote

Third, "there is nothing forcing him to work on anything but what he
wants to" is exactly the problem IMO.

Sure, but it is a problem with no solution. Unless you have blackmail
material, or bribery material (such as, say, a salary), there is very
little you can do to force someone to do something they don't want. The
best would be to come up with better incentives.

You are missing the voluntary concept. Voluntary doesn't mean that you do
what you feel like when you feel like. It means that you are volunteering
your time and/or skills for some project. Someone coordinates the tasks no
matter how uncomfortable and assigns them. Then everybody contributes to do
it on the agreed schedule.

Do you think it is a pleasure to go out at night during the Winter to
distribute food to the homeless? Yet volunteers do this...

+1 That is *exactly* the concept of volunteers. Add firefighters to
this list. They may put their lives at risk entering a burning
building, and they don't get paid.

Paul-6 wrote

I'm suggesting that a compromise based volunteer model is applied to
all, not just to developers. Then you might start to see a change and
a real community ;)

I'm not following; who apart from the developers would you apply this
to? To what end?

To anyone contributing to this project. It is quite obvious by your comment
that anyone who can't code isn't an important part of this project.
Someone like myself who helps irregularly on AskLO. Someone who helps
irregularly on Translation. Someone who helps on Documentation... all those
useless non-developers...

If there is a sense of responsibility and commitment so that you can
actually feel that people are doing whatever is needed within a defined
schedule (not just " what they want, when they want") then you can create a
real community and move forward much faster.

Charles-H, if you are reading this: this is one of the reasons it's hard do
engage users. At some point they are reminded that they are not developers
and therefore secondary in this project...

Best regards,
Pedro

--
View this message in context:
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Engaging-users-initial-results-of-the-survey-tp4082398p4082865.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.2.3

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

snowshed wrote
> Maybe there should be a queue, and fixed on a FIFO basis.  Are either of 
> my posted bugs, or the ones that I listed in another post debilitating? 
>   No.  Would I expect mine to be fixed before X number of debilitating 
> bugs?  Not in a million years.  But they need to be fixed eventually, 
> and not languish until the end of time.LOL

+1

Out of 300 developers you could have two groups: one for major
bugs/regressions by priority and another for going through the bugs starting
from #1

Of course this would require a commitment to do whatever is asked by the
coordinators... On a "do what you feel like, when you feel like" spirit this
won't  obviously work.



--
View this message in context: 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Engaging-users-initial-results-of-the-survey-tp4082398p4082866.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi Paul


Paul-6 wrote
>> Third, "there is nothing forcing him to work on anything but what he
>> wants to" is exactly the problem IMO.
> Sure, but it is a problem with no solution. Unless you have blackmail
> material, or bribery material (such as, say, a salary), there is very
> little you can do to force someone to do something they don't want. The
> best would be to come up with better incentives.

You are missing the voluntary concept. Voluntary doesn't mean that you do
what you feel like when you feel like. It means that you are volunteering
your time and/or skills for some project. Someone coordinates the tasks no
matter how uncomfortable and assigns them. Then everybody contributes to do
it on the agreed schedule. 

Do you think it is a pleasure to go out at night during the Winter to
distribute food to the homeless? Yet volunteers do this...


Paul-6 wrote
>> I'm suggesting that a compromise based volunteer model is applied to
>> all, not just to developers. Then you might start to see a change and
>> a real community ;)
> I'm not following; who apart from the developers would you apply this
> to? To what end?

To anyone contributing to this project. It is quite obvious by your comment
that anyone who can't code isn't an important part of this project.
Someone like myself who helps irregularly on AskLO. Someone who helps
irregularly on Translation. Someone who helps on Documentation... all those
useless non-developers... 

If there is a sense of responsibility and commitment so that you can
actually feel that people are doing whatever is needed within a defined
schedule (not just " what they want, when they want") then you can create a
real community and move forward much faster.

Charles-H, if you are reading this: this is one of the reasons it's hard do
engage users. At some point they are reminded that they are not developers
and therefore secondary in this project...

Best regards,
Pedro



--
View this message in context: 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Engaging-users-initial-results-of-the-survey-tp4082398p4082865.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey


On 11/12/2013 3:02 PM, Ken Springer wrote:

On 11/12/13 8:50 AM, John Meyer wrote:

On 11/11/2013 11:33 AM, Ken Springer wrote:
After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of 
bugs/issues.  I

wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't have
the knowledge to fix them.  I didn't expect those problems to go to the
head of the line.  But I *did* expect them to be put in the queue and
eventually fixed.

What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important.  BS!
It's important to me.

Let's say you have a car, and every 4th time you go to use it, it won't
start.  You take it to your mechanic, and each time you do, he tells 
you

"it's not important, he's got bigger problems to solve".  Are you going
to continue to take it to that mechanic, or are you going to find a
different mechanic?



You didn't provide links to the bugs that you provided, so I really
can't tell if they're crashes every 4th time you start, "I don't like
where the mirror is placed", or something in between problems.


It never occurred to me someone would want the bug numbers. 

1.  44871
2.  44986


And yes
there is a right way to tell the customer that the issue is either not
one that you get to at this moment or that the majority prefer the
solution solved another way (usually it involves a suggestion of an
alternative technique).
But even though you treat the customer as if they are always right, that
does not mean that they are always right.  Some things the customer is
wrong on.


Indeed, sometimes they are wrong.  But, if you want them to return, 
they are always right.  :-)




I'm not sure I want somebody to return enough to bend over backwards 
over a feature tweak vs taking the time to look at core functionality.  
I'm pretty certain I (and Libre Office) would lose more customers than 
they gain.




Some things are out of budget for LO, and some things are
just preferred to be done another way.  The choice has been put in your
court.  You can use LO or you can find another office suite that meets
your needs depending upon the issue.


As I've posted, I am looking for an alternative, and have 
"candidates".LOL




And you're welcome to them.  I doubt that they're going to bend over 
backwards either, particularly if they are free and open source options.






--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:23:31 -0800 (PST)
Pedro  wrote:

> First, it's not *my* bug. The bug is the software. The software is
> not mine.
Well said, and very true.

> Third, "there is nothing forcing him to work on anything but what he
> wants to" is exactly the problem IMO.
Sure, but it is a problem with no solution. Unless you have blackmail
material, or bribery material (such as, say, a salary), there is very
little you can do to force someone to do something they don't want. The
best would be to come up with better incentives.

> I'm suggesting that a compromise based volunteer model is applied to
> all, not just to developers. Then you might start to see a change and
> a real community ;)
I'm not following; who apart from the developers would you apply this
to? To what end?

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:26:25 -0700
Ken Springer  wrote:

> Maybe there should be a queue, and fixed on a FIFO basis.
That would be a terrible idea, at least without some prioritisation.
Otherwise you'd have periods of just catching up on myriad small bugs
while big issues languish.

> But, if you can't/won't/don't  get all of the bugs squashed with the
> resources you have, then you need to step back and reassess the
> situation.
Why? Why must absolutely *all* the bugs be squashed before you
continue? Then there'd probably be no forward progress and we'd have a
bunch of people complaining about LO being years behind everything
else, and nobody would be using it.

> As I said earlier, it's better to do a few things well, than a lot of 
> things poorly.
Then, by definition, you don't want an office suite...

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:26:25 -0700
Ken Springer  wrote:

> What told me I was being ignored, and essentially my issues were not 
> critical, is the fact they were never assigned to anyone for fixing,
> and labeled as such.
So you're upset because your issues were not considered "critical"?

> Don't want to pay?  I bought a commercial writing program to help 
> replace LO.  Isn't that paying?   
Well, then as pointed out, you could simply have put that money towards
having a developer prioritise your issues. What's the problem here?

> The minute LO or any open source program says "Use us instead of
> XXX or "
And when exactly have they said this? I mean, I for sure advocate using
LO instead of MSO, but I'm not sure this is an official party line.

With LO quite some effort is made to give users the best experience, and
to give them some choices around that, but it just can't fit everybody's
needs. If it doesn't fit yours, you are free to go elsewhere. As you
have said you are doing. As that other software you spoke of says. So
how is it ok for the other software to basically say "here you go, if
it's broke, don't bother us, we don't care", but it's not ok for LO to
say "here you go, if it's broke, we'll do our best to fix it, but
please bear in mind that we can't fix everything"? It just keeps
sounding like you have a double standard.

As far as I can see, you're upset because you think your bugs (well, the
ones you reported) are important enough that they should be critical,
but the developers don't agree, and you're upset because after a couple
of years the bugs are still in the queue, not assigned yet. I just
can't see that as a heinous crime. For some projects the lack of action
speaks of a disregard of the users, sure, but here there is plenty of
action on bugs, just not on those bugs. That doesn't speak of a
disregard of the users, it speaks of those particular bugs not being
valued highly by the developers. Perhaps that is wrong of them, sure,
and perhaps those bugs should be bumped a little to get some action on
them, but perhaps they just haven't had enough users reporting those
issues for anyone to notice next to the flood of other issues that are
being dealt with daily. I haven't looked at your specific bug reports,
so I really don't know.

I'm just trying to see why you are so upset about this, when it clearly
doesn't seem reasonable to me. Is it because it has happened to a string
of bugs, and you feel like there is a pattern of ignoring the bugs you
submit, and have generalised that to mean there is a pattern of
ignoring all users bugs? Is it because you feel your particular issues
really are *that* critical that the developers should have sat up and
taken notice by now? Is it because you feel you were given false
expectations of LO that haven't been lived up to?

Paul

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Using_LibreOffice_in_a_Web_Browser

Hi Gabriel, Joel, all


Gabriel Risterucci wrote
> I'm having a hard time compiling libreoffice with gtk3 support (or
> rather, my VM is having a hard time :D).
> However, I did build gtk3 with the broadway module and launched an
> application (gedit) on my linux box, and "showed" it on my windows box.
> It's really only the display that goes to the browser, as I see my linux
> FS
> and nothing else.
> 
> It's still interesting, though. If my LO build end anytime soon *and* work
> with gtk3, I'll post more details.

Please do. Thanks!

Joel, thank you for the link.

Unfortunately it seems to be a 14 day trial only. They do mention an Ad
supported version but I couldn't find it.
It requires a Gmail login and then you need to have some online (aka cloud)
storage.
Since I really didn't want them to have access to my Dropbox or Google
Drive, my experiment ended briefly.
I was surprised to see that they are still using LO 3.6.5.2 (not even
3.6.7.2...) but given LO 4.x problems with 

I might give it another run when I create a separate cloud storage ;) Thanks
again!

Cheers,
Pedro



--
View this message in context: 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Using-LibreOffice-in-a-Web-Browser-tp4037946p4082856.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:44:50 -0700
John Meyer  wrote:

> On 11/12/2013 2:39 PM, Ken Springer wrote:
> >
> > Here's the fault with this logic.
> >
> > I'm going to up the number of people for bug B just for
> > illustrating my point.
> >
> > 50 people have issues with bug A.  5 people have issues with bug B. 
> > Extrapolate...  5 people with bug C, 5 with D, all the way though
> > Z. You now have 125 people unhappy with 25 bugs.
> >
> > If the goal is to increase the usage of LO, is it better to have 50 
> > unhappy people over A not being fixed, or 125 unhappy people over
> > bugs C-Z.  Which group is more likely to pass along negative
> > impressions? 
> 
> 
> You also have to ask if bugs B-Z are "bugs" or feature requests.
> 
You also now have 25 bugs to fix, which is probably going to take
*considerably* longer than just fixing bug A.

And you're forgetting about bugs/feature requests AA through ZZ, so
yes, this analogy will fall down at some point.

Again, the developers have limited resources to fix bugs, which
includes time and knowledge of the specific parts of the system, and
they have a lot of bugs and feature requests to get through. Either way
they slice it, someone is going to be unhappy. So they do the best they
can, and I'm sure that best involves a lot of discussion and decision
making, with a much better understanding of the tradeoffs than we have.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 15:02:08 -0700
Ken Springer  wrote:

> Changes are one animal, fixes are another.
Sometimes (often?) a fix entails a change...

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Using_LibreOffice_in_a_Web_Browser

2013-11-12 Thread Gabriel Risterucci

2013/11/12 Pedro 

> Hi Gabriel
>
>
> Gabriel Risterucci wrote
> > For the record, the provided wiki page reference the broadway backend of
> > GTK, which mean that the software is actually running on the server, and
> > only displayed in the browser. It's not different that what you'd achieve
> > with logmein or X forwarding or VNC (etc...).
>
> Running software on a remote PC (like logmein or VNC) usually doesn't allow
> the applications there to open and save local files. Does this GTK
> implementation allow that?
>
>
I'm having a hard time compiling libreoffice with gtk3 support (or
rather, my VM is having a hard time :D).
However, I did build gtk3 with the broadway module and launched an
application (gedit) on my linux box, and "showed" it on my windows box.
It's really only the display that goes to the browser, as I see my linux FS
and nothing else.

It's still interesting, though. If my LO build end anytime soon *and* work
with gtk3, I'll post more details.



>
> Gabriel Risterucci wrote
> > Curious peoples can try the various tutorials on the web (not always
> > straightforward...) to enable broadway as a GTK backend on their systems
> > globally, and thus use it with libreoffice (or anything using gtk3 I
> > suppose). At least under linux.
>
> Hum... Sounds like a linux thing... I think I will stick with Joel's
> suggestion :)
>
>
Yes it is! Hehe.
Although it might be possible under windows, building the needed parts on a
linux system is usually easier as build tools and source packages are
easier to come by.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Using_LibreOffice_in_a_Web_Browser

Hi Gabriel


Gabriel Risterucci wrote
> For the record, the provided wiki page reference the broadway backend of
> GTK, which mean that the software is actually running on the server, and
> only displayed in the browser. It's not different that what you'd achieve
> with logmein or X forwarding or VNC (etc...).

Running software on a remote PC (like logmein or VNC) usually doesn't allow
the applications there to open and save local files. Does this GTK
implementation allow that?


Gabriel Risterucci wrote
> Curious peoples can try the various tutorials on the web (not always
> straightforward...) to enable broadway as a GTK backend on their systems
> globally, and thus use it with libreoffice (or anything using gtk3 I
> suppose). At least under linux.

Hum... Sounds like a linux thing... I think I will stick with Joel's
suggestion :)

Thanks!



--
View this message in context: 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Using-LibreOffice-in-a-Web-Browser-tp4037946p4082848.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey


On 11/12/13 8:50 AM, John Meyer wrote:

On 11/11/2013 11:33 AM, Ken Springer wrote:

After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of bugs/issues.  I
wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't have
the knowledge to fix them.  I didn't expect those problems to go to the
head of the line.  But I *did* expect them to be put in the queue and
eventually fixed.

What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important.  BS!
It's important to me.

Let's say you have a car, and every 4th time you go to use it, it won't
start.  You take it to your mechanic, and each time you do, he tells you
"it's not important, he's got bigger problems to solve".  Are you going
to continue to take it to that mechanic, or are you going to find a
different mechanic?



You didn't provide links to the bugs that you provided, so I really
can't tell if they're crashes every 4th time you start, "I don't like
where the mirror is placed", or something in between problems.


It never occurred to me someone would want the bug numbers.  

1.  44871
2.  44986


And yes
there is a right way to tell the customer that the issue is either not
one that you get to at this moment or that the majority prefer the
solution solved another way (usually it involves a suggestion of an
alternative technique).
But even though you treat the customer as if they are always right, that
does not mean that they are always right.  Some things the customer is
wrong on.


Indeed, sometimes they are wrong.  But, if you want them to return, they 
are always right.  :-)



Some things are out of budget for LO, and some things are
just preferred to be done another way.  The choice has been put in your
court.  You can use LO or you can find another office suite that meets
your needs depending upon the issue.


As I've posted, I am looking for an alternative, and have "candidates". 
   LOL



The best thing about LO is that
you don't have to drop one to take on another.  And not even Microsoft
or Adobe would drop everything and start changing code just because one
user wants a change.


Changes are one animal, fixes are another.


Any company that did that would soon find itself
bankrupt.




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.2.3


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey


On 11/12/2013 2:39 PM, Ken Springer wrote:


Here's the fault with this logic.

I'm going to up the number of people for bug B just for illustrating 
my point.


50 people have issues with bug A.  5 people have issues with bug B. 
Extrapolate...  5 people with bug C, 5 with D, all the way though Z. 
You now have 125 people unhappy with 25 bugs.


If the goal is to increase the usage of LO, is it better to have 50 
unhappy people over A not being fixed, or 125 unhappy people over bugs 
C-Z.  Which group is more likely to pass along negative impressions? 



You also have to ask if bugs B-Z are "bugs" or feature requests.

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey


On 11/12/13 5:51 AM, Paul wrote:

I think there's a dangerous perception here: The perception that the LO
developers work on nothing except what they want to work on.

I'm pretty sure that that is very false. They work on LO because they
want to work on LO, and they probably choose what to work on based on
at least the following:

a) How many people report a specific bug
b) How serious that bug is to people's productivity
c) How in line that bug is with current roadmaps
d) Regression bugs probably have higher priority
e) What parts of the system they know the best
f) How much time they have at the moment, and how big the bug is
g) How much fun they think it will be (or more likely, which bug will
be the least annoying to fix)

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 04:24:03 -0800 (PST)
Pedro  wrote:


The logic that "a bug is not important because not many people report
it" has a big flaw: most people give up without bothering to
report... (and in the case of Bugzilla, reporting requires quite a
lot of effort)

This logic may not be true in an absolute sense, but consider that it's
not normally a question of how important the bug is on its own merits,
but how important the bug is compared to other bugs. If 50 people have
reported bug A and only 2 people have reported bug B, while bug B may
still be important, and there may be another 20 people who haven't
reported it, it is not as important as bug A, and there may be another
20 people who haven't reported bug A as well.


Here's the fault with this logic.

I'm going to up the number of people for bug B just for illustrating my 
point.


50 people have issues with bug A.  5 people have issues with bug B. 
Extrapolate...  5 people with bug C, 5 with D, all the way though Z. 
You now have 125 people unhappy with 25 bugs.


If the goal is to increase the usage of LO, is it better to have 50 
unhappy people over A not being fixed, or 125 unhappy people over bugs 
C-Z.  Which group is more likely to pass along negative impressions?



In other volunteer based organizations (humanistic, animal
protection, etc), people agree to do work on tasks attributed to them
even if that is not what they feel like doing. The "do whatever you
feel like" model doesn't work.

And I don't think anybody is suggesting that that model is the
predominant one here.

I have pointed out in the past that you cannot expect a developer to
work on your bug, because there is nothing forcing him to work on
anything but what he wants to, but that doesn't mean that is all he
does. It means you can't *force* him to work on what *you* want him to
work on. I'm sure the developers *do* give careful consideration to
what they work on, it just might not be what you feel they should work
on, but they've got a bigger picture than you.

Remember, we do have to keep the developers happy to some extent,
otherwise they leave. This is true even if they are getting paid (I've
left more than one company which was paying me, because I was unhappy
with some other aspect of the situation), and especially true if they
are not getting paid. Also, just because they don't prioritise the bugs
you think are important, doesn't mean they are cherry-picking just the
bugs they like, it probably just means they had other, more important
things to deal with.

Just something to keep in mind.

Paul




--
Ken

Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 24.0
Thunderbird 17.0.8
LibreOffice 4.1.2.3


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey


Hi, Michael,

On 11/12/13 3:53 AM, Michael Meeks wrote:

Hi Ken,

On Mon, 2013-11-11 at 11:33 -0700, Ken Springer wrote:

After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of bugs/issues.  I
wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't have
the knowledge to fix them.  I didn't expect those problems to go to the
head of the line.  But I *did* expect them to be put in the queue and
eventually fixed.


The problem of course is that there is no queue of bugs-to-fix. We try
to prioritize issues, so that we can see those that are seriously
debilitating and then try to fix those on a best-effort basis.


Maybe there should be a queue, and fixed on a FIFO basis.  Are either of 
my posted bugs, or the ones that I listed in another post debilitating? 
 No.  Would I expect mine to be fixed before X number of debilitating 
bugs?  Not in a million years.  But they need to be fixed eventually, 
and not languish until the end of time.LOL


More than once, it's mentioned that open source projects have limited 
resources.  That I don't mind, either.  But, if you can't/won't/don't 
get all of the bugs squashed with the resources you have, then you need 
to step back and reassess the situation.  You need to do 1 of 2 things:


1.  Acquire more resources
	2.  Acknowledge the project has outgrown the existing resources, and 
it's time

to top adding features you do not have the resources to 
maintain.

As I said earlier, it's better to do a few things well, than a lot of 
things poorly.  I seriously doubt there are thousands of people with the 
same issues (bugs) I have.  But there must be a lot of people like me 
for whom a feature they need doesn't work.  Individually, there won't be 
many users per bug.  But in the aggregate, you could have thousands and 
thousands of unhappy users.  Do you feel those folks are going to give 
LO a good push with out adding the proverbial "but"?



What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important.  BS!
It's important to me.


This is the interesting piece to me. Can you expand on your experience
there ? clearly all bugs are important to someone - but not all are
'Critical' or whatever from a prioritization perspective. Nevertheless,
perhaps the naming of those prioritization is needlessly offensive.
Potentially with our new bugzilla we could use P1 -> P6 or whatever -
making it clear that this is a spectrum.


This is were the word "critical" is the issue, and how it's defined. 
Sometimes, you can give the word a fixed, quantitative "value", if you 
will in some cases, in others, it's subjective.  An issue may be minor 
and not critical from your perspective, but it could be major and very 
critical to your user.


What told me I was being ignored, and essentially my issues were not 
critical, is the fact they were never assigned to anyone for fixing, and 
labeled as such.



Let's say you have a car, and every 4th time you go to use it, it won't
start.  You take it to your mechanic, and each time you do, he tells you
"it's not important, he's got bigger problems to solve".  Are you going
to continue to take it to that mechanic, or are you going to find a
different mechanic?


I'm really not sure that there are any mechanics out there that do work
for free; I've not met one. Of course - if you want to pay for a bug to
be fixed, our level-3 bug queue has only a handful of open-bugs, and
they turn over on a weekly basis. But I strongly suspect you don't want
to pay.


Don't want to pay?  I bought a commercial writing program to help 
replace LO.  Isn't that paying?   



So - perhaps a more apt analogy is taking your car to a local friendly
volunteer / free mechanic down the road who helps people out of the
goodness of their heart - and berating them for not spending a week
investigating and fixing the squeak in your suspension -now- because
he's been working trying to get other people's car's to start at all ;-)


With the car analogy, it depends on how "critical" having the car 
working is to you.  If you need to have it start every time, barring 
being out of gas and such (LOL), you pay to get it fixed.  If the use is 
sporadic, and dependability of that car isn't needed, you might choose 
to have your neighbor tinker with it.  Even then, there's an end to that 
path, you get your car back, and do something different.  Sell it, give 
it away, let it rust away in your driveway.


Either way, the car eventually gets used less and less.


Anyhow - there is no desire to offend people through the prioritization
flow; that is a really critically useful function of QA though - so
ideas on how we can improve that appreciated.


I downloaded another open source writing program, and the developers are 
clear they do what they want, if you want an issue fixed, you fix it 
yourself, one way or another.  That's fine, if there's issues I need and 
they don't work, that's fine.  They aren't telling

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Using_LibreOffice_in_a_Web_Browser

2013-11-12 Thread Joel Madero



run a portable version (e.g. X-LibreOffice) from your own pen (it 
only needs

some 400Mb)

Running LibreOffice from a Web Server would be fantastic...

Yes, I agree.
Kolbjoern



https://www.rollapp.com/search?query=libreoffice

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Using_LibreOffice_in_a_Web_Browser

2013-11-12 Thread Kolbjørn Stuestøl


Den 12.11.2013 19:21, skreiv Pedro:

Kolbjørn Stuestøl wrote

Den 12.11.2013 16:47, skreiv jomali:

Can't you use LogMeIn.com to do what you want?

I am using Dropbox for that purposes. It is free up to a few Gb of
storage.

LogMeIn is not the same. You would be running LibreOffice on the remote
computer.

Dropbox is not the same. You would need to download the full office suite to
the local computer and then run it locally.
To be a bit more precise: My team is running LibreOffice on all 
computers. Using Dropbox to store the generated common text files or 
whatever only.

Have to check out LogMeIn. Did not know about it.


If you want to run a local copy on any computer it is far more efficient to
run a portable version (e.g. X-LibreOffice) from your own pen (it only needs
some 400Mb)

Running LibreOffice from a Web Server would be fantastic...

Yes, I agree.
Kolbjoern


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

FW: [libreoffice-users] Re: CALC convert text to numbers

2013-11-12 Thread David Gast


From: David Gast
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:37
To: Denis Navas Vega
Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: CALC convert text to numbers

It does not contradict my assertion.  I did not discuss multiplication.
The answer is that it depends on how you multiply.  You did not
state how you multiplied but I am sure you used the * operator.
Using the * operator, you will get 123.  If you use product(a1),
where a1 contains '123, you will get 0.

Operators and functions do not work the same.

From: Denis Navas Vega [denis.na...@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 22:06
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: CALC convert text to numbers

El 2013-11-11 04:00 p.m., David Gast escribió:
> Spreadsheets use the MVC (model view controller) paradigm.  That means
> that the model (how the data are actually stored) and how you view
> the data are separated.  You can take a number like 4.5 and view it
> as a date, a date and time, a real number, etc.  You can easily compare
> dates because they are stored as numbers, not character strings like
> "Monday, Nov. 11." Further, you can easily send your spreadsheet to
> someone who only knows some language you have never heard of and s/he
> can open it and display and compare the dates in whatever language
> s/he has set.
>
> The best way to see if a cell contains a number, text, or a formula is
> to use View -> Value Highlighting (F8).  (Does Excel even have this
> feature?  If so, it must hidden in the ribbon somewhere.)  A zero as
> text has the ASCII value 48; as a number, the value is 0, so text and
> numbers are not equal.  OpenOffice used to generate errors if one
> improperly tried to add text and a number, for example.  Along the
> way, that behavior was modified to emulate Excel.  (I prefered the
> old way along with the fact that either OOo or gnumeric or both used to
> evaluate -1^2 correctly--the mathematical answer is -1, not 1.)
>
> I just checked using Excel 2010, if you change the format (the view) of the
> cell, the underlying representation (the model) does not change.
>
> 1. Type '123 in a cell, say A1
> 2. Right click and choose Format Cells, then Format as a number.
>(That is, change General to Number.)
>
> The entry is still text.  You can confirm because =sum(A1) yields 0.
> Note: =A1+0 yields 123. (Also the text is still left justified.)
>
> That is, there is no conversion.
>
> Best regards,
>
> David Gast
>
> 
> From: Oogie McGuire [oog...@desertweyr.com]
> Sent: Monday, November 11, 2013 09:17
> To: Joel Madero
> Cc: Brian Barker; users@global.libreoffice.org
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] CALC convert text to numbers
>
> For me dealing with an extension, installing it, making sure it doesn't 
> conflict with something else was more effort than creating a column, using 
> Value() and then pasting special.
>
> What's a problem is that in Excel even though it also uses the leading ' to 
> format text as numbers, if you change the format of a cell the conversions 
> happen without any problems. I want that same behavior in Calc because to me 
> it makes sense that the cell format should be the controlling factor for what 
> type of data is in a given cell.
>
>
> On Nov 10, 2013, at 7:43 PM, Joel Madero wrote:
>
>> Why is everyone straying away from the fact that there is a simple extension 
>> developed by Cor (one of our brilliant devs) which accomplishes all of this? 
>> Just curious if there's a benefit to doing these formula techniques instead 
>> of just pushing a button on a nice gui
>
> Eugenie (Oogie) McGuire
> Desert Weyr http://www.desertweyr.com/
> Paonia, CO USA
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems? 
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>
>
>
>


With Excel 2010 I made the following test, that contradicts your assertion.

A)  Write just:  123-->  That's a number (just to compare).
B)  Write : '123-->  That's text.  Sum(cell) is equal to cero.
C)  Multiply:   In another cell write a formula that
references '123 address and multiply by 1.
You get a number!

Check it.





--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted




-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Using_LibreOffice_in_a_Web_Browser

2013-11-12 Thread Gabriel Risterucci

2013/11/12 Pedro 

> Kolbjørn Stuestøl wrote
> > Den 12.11.2013 16:47, skreiv jomali:
> >> Can't you use LogMeIn.com to do what you want?
> > I am using Dropbox for that purposes. It is free up to a few Gb of
> > storage.
>
> LogMeIn is not the same. You would be running LibreOffice on the remote
> computer.
>
> Dropbox is not the same. You would need to download the full office suite
> to
> the local computer and then run it locally.
>
> If you want to run a local copy on any computer it is far more efficient to
> run a portable version (e.g. X-LibreOffice) from your own pen (it only
> needs
> some 400Mb)
>
> Running LibreOffice from a Web Server would be fantastic...
>
>
For the record, the provided wiki page reference the broadway backend of
GTK, which mean that the software is actually running on the server, and
only displayed in the browser. It's not different that what you'd achieve
with logmein or X forwarding or VNC (etc...).

Curious peoples can try the various tutorials on the web (not always
straightforward...) to enable broadway as a GTK backend on their systems
globally, and thus use it with libreoffice (or anything using gtk3 I
suppose). At least under linux.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Using_LibreOffice_in_a_Web_Browser

Kolbjørn Stuestøl wrote
> Den 12.11.2013 16:47, skreiv jomali:
>> Can't you use LogMeIn.com to do what you want?
> I am using Dropbox for that purposes. It is free up to a few Gb of
> storage.

LogMeIn is not the same. You would be running LibreOffice on the remote
computer.

Dropbox is not the same. You would need to download the full office suite to
the local computer and then run it locally.

If you want to run a local copy on any computer it is far more efficient to
run a portable version (e.g. X-LibreOffice) from your own pen (it only needs
some 400Mb)

Running LibreOffice from a Web Server would be fantastic...



--
View this message in context: 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Using-LibreOffice-in-a-Web-Browser-tp4037946p4082806.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Using_LibreOffice_in_a_Web_Browser

2013-11-12 Thread jomali

On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 11:39 AM, Kolbjørn Stuestøl
wrote:

> Den 12.11.2013 16:47, skreiv jomali:
>
>> Can't you use LogMeIn.com to do what you want?
>>
> I am using Dropbox for that purposes. It is free up to a few Gb of storage.
> Kolbjoern
>

Dropbox != LogMeIn. Dropbox just stores files. LogMeIn accesses your remote
computer, allowing you to control it as if you were sitting at its
keyboard. It, too, is free.



-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

2013-11-12 Thread Philipp Weissenbacher

Hi Tanstaafl,

LibreOffice is using freedesktop.org infrastructure for bug management
software and code repository.

How do I just log into the bug reporting system and search it? Anyone?
>

This is a list of all LibreOffice
bugs
.
You would eventually discover that when "Getting
Involved"
.

Maybe we should rename "Get Help" -> "Bug" to "Report a bug"

HTH,
Philipp

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

2013-11-12 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
Something that often annoys me is that we seem to ignore all the work
of all the devs who are paid to work on LibreOffice.

I thought something like 10%-20% of devs are employed by various
companies, governments and other organisations?  The advantage for the
organisations, companies and governments is that they still get the
suite far cheaper than they would pay in license fees PLUS they get to
choose what bugs their own devs focus on.

If you don't pay a dev then you still get to use a fantastic office
suite for free and a fairly tiny donation goes a lng way to
improving it further.  Of course we can grumble but i think it's
important to sit back and appreciate just what we do get too.


if we worked harder to encourage more companies to use LO and helped
them find ways to employ part-time or full-time devs with the savings
they would make on license fees then it might start to "snowball" even
more quickly.
Regards from
Tom :)




On 12 November 2013 13:53, Charles-H. Schulz
 wrote:
> Paul,
>
> Just completing Pedro's answers inline...
>
> Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:23:31 -0800 (PST),
> Pedro  a écrit :
>
>> Paul-6 wrote
>> > I think there's a dangerous perception here: The perception that
>> > the LO developers work on nothing except what they want to work on.
>>
>> I didn't mean to say that.
>> I'm aware that some developers work on whatever is needed and fix the
>> most urgent bugs/regressions.
>> But out of 300 developers, there must be people who can fix the
>> "boring" bugs and the "not important" bugs... Of course you would
>> have to ask these developers to start with bug #1 and fix it before
>> moving to #2
>>
>> Michael Meeks once wrote "Developers don't like to be told what to
>> do". I'm sure they don't. But if nobody does then there is no
>> solution for bugs that keep lingering...
>
> and nobody says the system is perfect. ;-)
> But to come back to Paul's objection, yes, developers work on what they
> want to work on. Their motivation can be anything from a salary to some
> dream they want or yet another thing that keeps them awake at night.
> Somewhere in between I'm sure there's a reasonable guy . But "whatever
> is needed" is prone to a wide range of interpretation.
>
> Let me give you an example. While "your" bug (good point Pedro, by the
> way) wasn't being fixed, some guy called Caolan McNamara, who wrote the
> code of the word processing module back in the days of OpenOffice.org
> took on the daunting task of rewriting the entire graphical system of
> LibreOffice. And mind you, we're talking about over 6Million lines of
> code for a suite like LibreOffice. Was it necessary? Hell yes. Was it a
> high priority? Absolutely. Did he have the time to focus on the bug
> you're mentioning? No.
>
> But to him, this objective was of the highest  importance and it was
> *sorely* needed. I'm not saying the bug you reported wasn't important.
> I'm saying that while you may be complaining, others are cheering.
> Other bugs get fixed. See my point?
>
>
>>
>>
>> Paul-6 wrote
>> > I have pointed out in the past that you cannot expect a developer to
>> > work on your bug, because there is nothing forcing him to work on
>> > anything but what he wants to, but that doesn't mean that is all he
>> > does. It means you can't *force* him to work on what *you* want him
>> > to work on. I'm sure the developers *do* give careful consideration
>> > to what they work on, it just might not be what you feel they
>> > should work on, but they've got a bigger picture than you.
>>
>> First, it's not *my* bug. The bug is the software. The software is
>> not mine. Second, many times I already have a solution for the
>> problem. I only report it so that the bug is fixed for the benefit of
>> the community. I even report bugs that don't affect me at all.
>
> +1
>
>
>> Third, "there is nothing forcing him to work on anything but what he
>> wants to" is exactly the problem IMO.
>
> And yet that's how most of the FOSS projects work. But then again, no
> system is perfect.
>
>
>>
>>
>> Paul-6 wrote
>> > Remember, we do have to keep the developers happy to some extent,
>> > otherwise they leave.
>>
>> Yes, so do other people. But they are not so important, right?
>> If you can't tell developers what to do, some bugs will always be
>> there because they are boring to fix or because they are "not
>> important".
>>
>> I'm suggesting that a compromise based volunteer model is applied to
>> all, not just to developers. Then you might start to see a change and
>> a real community ;)
>
>
> Motivation is a hard thing to assess. Rather than reaching a
> compromise in abstracto, I'd say that the compromise is found through
> social engineering and everyone's motivation. Let's say that you are
> reporting bugs on a regular basis. Some of these bugs are particularly
> hairy ones, and it catches developers' attention. It's likely that
> after two or three bug reports of that kind, developers, at least some
> of them, might be paying

Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

2013-11-12 Thread Robinson Tryon

On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:53 AM, Tanstaafl  wrote:
> CC'ing the website list because it is about the website, but I'm not
> subscribed, so please CC me on replies if you really want to discuss this
> complaint.

I've also cc'd the QA team (who manage/work on the bugtracker,
including Rob Snelders, the lead dev for the Bug Submission Assistant
("BSA"))

> This prompted me to go file a bug (Feature Request) for something I've been
> meaning to file for some time now, then I couldn't remember if I'd already
> done it before, so I wanted to check and see...
> ...
> The 'new' website is extraordinarily difficult to navigate if you want to do
> anything other than download the latest version.
>
> My simple goal was to log into the Bug system, check 'My Bugs' and see if
> I'd reported this yet, and if not, report it...

Fair enough. So you were expecting a link to the bugtracker either on
the main page or from the BSA?

(Rob - Thinking a bit broader, it would be nice if we could give users
a single page that would display information about their activity on
Bugzilla, the Ask site, etc. Using some form of SSO like OpenID or at
least shared credentials (e.g. LDAP) could make this easier)

> 2. After going to the main website, I clicked on 'Get Help', and then
> clicked on 'Bug'...
>
> The only option here is to report a bug.
>
> What if I don't want to report a bug, but only want to search for bugs?
>
> Even after I log in, the only next step available is to continue reporting a
> bug I don't want/need to report!?

Rob - Any thoughts here?

> This is HORRIBLY BROKEN.
>
> How do I just log into the bug reporting system and search it? Anyone?

To log in, navigate to http://bugs.freedesktop.org/ and click on the
"Log In" link. To search the bugs, click on the "Search" link.

I agree that we should make it easier for users to find and use
Bugzilla. Tanstaafl -- we're actually right in the middle of some
backend infrastructure improvements for Bugzilla, but I'll make sure
that we spend some time on the frontend of things as well.

Best,
--R

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi Charles


Tanstaafl wrote
> That would help for that one issue, but I still don't have a clue how to 
> log into the bug system and work with bugs...

You are right that the current documentation won't take you there :)

Go to
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/
and click on Log In (second item from the right on the top or bottom menu)

Hope this helps...



--
View this message in context: 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Engaging-users-initial-results-of-the-survey-tp4082398p4082788.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Using_LibreOffice_in_a_Web_Browser

2013-11-12 Thread Kolbjørn Stuestøl


Den 12.11.2013 16:47, skreiv jomali:

Can't you use LogMeIn.com to do what you want?

I am using Dropbox for that purposes. It is free up to a few Gb of storage.
Kolbjoern



On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 10:14 AM, David Lastovicka wrote:


bill  techservsys.com> writes:


On 2/23/2013 3:00 PM, Luuk wrote:

Not any good answers, and not any bad answers.
No answers at all. ;(

Seems no one is interested in being able to edit via a browser

I can not imagine why I would want to.
Why would I want to ?


Because from anywhere I could connect to my home computer and edit my
libreoffice documents directly on this home computer without caring about
their synchronization or about
the fact whether libreoffice is installed on the computer that I happened
to
be at.



--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems?
http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
deleted





--
Kolbjørn Stuestøl, Stuestøl, 4580 Lyngdal
Telefon: (47) 38 34 78 62,  (47) 917 81 125
Stuestøl heimesider: http://www.stuestoel.no
Sjå også
Lyngdal hagelag: http://www.stuestoel.no/hagelag/hagelag.php
Mandal og Lister pyntegrøntlag: http://www.mlpynt.no
GIMP på norsk: http://www.gimp.no


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-website] Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

2013-11-12 Thread Tanstaafl

On 2013-11-12 9:53 AM, Philipp Weissenbacher  
wrote:

Hi Tanstaafl,

LibreOffice is using freedesktop.org infrastructure for bug
management software and code repository.


Ok, this doesn't help me any, but ok... ;)


How do I just log into the bug reporting system and search it? Anyone?



This is a list of all LibreOffice bugs
.


thanks, but I didn't ask for that...


You would eventually discover that when "Getting Involved"...


Nope... clicked that link, still couldn't find a 'Bugzilla Login Page' 
that I can simply log into (with my user account), then search bugs, 
check status of or work with bugs I've reported, etc...



Maybe we should rename "Get Help" -> "Bug" to "Report a bug"


That would help for that one issue, but I still don't have a clue how to 
log into the bug system and work with bugs...


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/11/2013 11:33 AM, Ken Springer wrote:
> After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of bugs/issues.  I
> wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't have
> the knowledge to fix them.  I didn't expect those problems to go to the
> head of the line.  But I *did* expect them to be put in the queue and
> eventually fixed.
> 
> What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important.  BS!
> It's important to me.
> 
> Let's say you have a car, and every 4th time you go to use it, it won't
> start.  You take it to your mechanic, and each time you do, he tells you
> "it's not important, he's got bigger problems to solve".  Are you going
> to continue to take it to that mechanic, or are you going to find a
> different mechanic?

You didn't provide links to the bugs that you provided, so I really
can't tell if they're crashes every 4th time you start, "I don't like
where the mirror is placed", or something in between problems.  And yes
there is a right way to tell the customer that the issue is either not
one that you get to at this moment or that the majority prefer the
solution solved another way (usually it involves a suggestion of an
alternative technique).
But even though you treat the customer as if they are always right, that
does not mean that they are always right.  Some things the customer is
wrong on.  Some things are out of budget for LO, and some things are
just preferred to be done another way.  The choice has been put in your
court.  You can use LO or you can find another office suite that meets
your needs depending upon the issue.  The best thing about LO is that
you don't have to drop one to take on another.  And not even Microsoft
or Adobe would drop everything and start changing code just because one
user wants a change.  Any company that did that would soon find itself
bankrupt.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Using_LibreOffice_in_a_Web_Browser

2013-11-12 Thread jomali

Can't you use LogMeIn.com to do what you want?


On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 10:14 AM, David Lastovicka wrote:

> bill  techservsys.com> writes:
>
> >
> > On 2/23/2013 3:00 PM, Luuk wrote:
> > > Not any good answers, and not any bad answers.
> > > No answers at all. ;(
> > >
> > > Seems no one is interested in being able to edit via a browser
> >
> > I can not imagine why I would want to.
> > Why would I want to ?
> >
>
> Because from anywhere I could connect to my home computer and edit my
> libreoffice documents directly on this home computer without caring about
> their synchronization or about
> the fact whether libreoffice is installed on the computer that I happened
> to
> be at.
>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems?
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
> deleted
>
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Using_LibreOffice_in_a_Web_Browser

2013-11-12 Thread Gabriel Risterucci

2013/11/12 David Lastovicka 

> bill  techservsys.com> writes:
>
> >
> > On 2/23/2013 3:00 PM, Luuk wrote:
> > > Not any good answers, and not any bad answers.
> > > No answers at all. ;(
> > >
> > > Seems no one is interested in being able to edit via a browser
> >
> > I can not imagine why I would want to.
> > Why would I want to ?
> >
>
> Because from anywhere I could connect to my home computer and edit my
> libreoffice documents directly on this home computer without caring about
> their synchronization or about
> the fact whether libreoffice is installed on the computer that I happened
> to
> be at.
>

This might not be supported anymore... it reference version 3.5, which is
quite old.

Anyway, if you're really willing to have such "functionnality", you could
always emulate it with some existing techniques (since setting up LO as a
webserver and setting acces to it from the web needs minimal technical
knowledge, I believe you're ready to use the alternatives):
- Remote desktop, there is some kind of client that run in a web browser too
- X server (even on windows!). Allow you to run any application from a
remote server, including LO. It can also perform slightly better than a
"dummy" VNC-based solution, but your mileage may vary. Also available in
the form of browser-compliant java plugins (not tested myself, but it
exists)
- Get in the code and bring this functionnality up to par yourself (just
kidding; this looks like a tremendous amount of work!)

Anyway, I don't think that adding webserver-gui functionality should lie
inside of an office suite, when there is alternatives.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Engaging users: initial results of the survey

John,

Okay, that sounds different from what I initially understood. :-)
I thought you wanted to restart the survey. Anyway, thanks for the tip.
We'll take more care about phrasing what we want in the first place
next time. However, I suggest you read the archives  of our marketing
list during the month of October to see our discussions. 

Best,

Charles.


Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 08:21:42 -0700,
John Meyer  a écrit :

> Charles,
> 
>   What's expensive about setting up a mailing list dedicated to
> the survey and asking internally "what do we want to know about users
> and how do we want to find out about it"?  Or doing some requests for
> volunteers from local university statistic students? Your volunteers
> don't necessarily have to start from the community you are surveying
> Professionalism is not about cost; it's about preparation.  And I
> wouldn't recommend another survey.  At least, I wouldn't recommend it
> yet.  If you don't have money, you do have time.  Take six months to a
> year to get the right elements in place. In the meantime, use less
> formal ways to explore what you want to know about users (feedback
> forms, mailing lists, etc).
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/12/2013 8:02 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> > John,
> > 
> > I'm well aware on how to run a project;  and many comments and
> > critiques I have read so far are valid. Just keep in mind that we're
> > not going to run just another survey because according to some, it
> > wasn't granular enough (btw: there are others who would object to
> > your methodology as being too expensive to organize or as
> > unncessary). Running the survey again would end up confusing the
> > users who already answered. 
> > 
> > If you seriously would like to get involved, you should  - I mean
> > it, there's no sarcasm. 
> > 
> > Best
> > 
> > Charles. 
> > 
> > 
> > Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:54:15 -0700,
> > John Meyer  a écrit :
> > 
> >> Okay,  I point out problems and you're response is "you don't like
> >> it you can run out your own survey" and then say I'm inaccurate
> >> without stating why I'm inaccurate with a solicitation for
> >> donations in the previous e-mail.  Do you see the major issue
> >> here?  Flies, honey, vinegar.
> >>
> >> I don't know how your project works, but if you're not doing the
> >> proper work beforehand I don't know how it can work.  Ask anybody
> >> who's run any successful project.  Heck, even the leaders of failed
> >> projects can tell you.  They probably have more information.
> >> First, you define your goals.  Next you gather and prepare your
> >> resources.  You do a test run, maybe more than one and hope you
> >> have enough time.  You have people with specific knowledge
> >> critique and make adjustments.  Finally you run the project, and
> >> afterwards you analyze and make improvements for the next time.
> >> Those principals apply whether you're running a for profit project
> >> or a non profit. And that would be the bare bones work if I was
> >> running a local project. You're going global, which involves
> >> understanding cultural differences as well.  That is not the type
> >> of thing I would do with an ad hoc team with nobody who has any
> >> experience in what I was doing in the first place. Like I said,
> >> define the questions, gather the mailing list.  And if you don't
> >> have access to anybody with experience in statistics, don't launch
> >> until you do.  A badly done survey is worse than none at all.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11/12/2013 7:38 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> >>> Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:29:47 -0700,
> >>> John Meyer  a écrit :
> >>>
>  You made a survey without a survey statistician on your team.
>  Did you send out a request for such a person on the mailing
>  lists to advise you before you put together the survey?  Did you
>  have a clear and concise question that you wanted to answer
>  before you developed the survey questions?  Did you run the
>  questions by an aforementioned professional in the staff and
>  check for confirmation bias?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> No. And apparently you have little awareness of how our project
> >>> works. But  you make a couple of valid points. 
> >>>
>  I am not a professional statistician, and that's just what I
>  spotted.  I have covered surveys as a journalist in my previous
>  career, though.  And I also am a veteran of setting up business
>  projects.  A survey statistician would have a lot more to say I
>  am sure.  And we're not even starting on the analysis.  In fact,
>  I'd throw out the analysis and the results and start anew.
>  First off, define "users" (end users, evangelists, business
>  users?) and state the overall purpose of your survey in a single
>  question. I regret some of the tone of the previous e-mail
>  (first e-mail prior to coffee), but there's nothing here to work
>  with.  You've got 300 self-selected users with at least two
>  major questions in one survey th

[libreoffice-users] Re: Using_LibreOffice_in_a_Web_Browser

2013-11-12 Thread David Lastovicka

bill  techservsys.com> writes:

> 
> On 2/23/2013 3:00 PM, Luuk wrote:
> > Not any good answers, and not any bad answers.
> > No answers at all. ;(
> >
> > Seems no one is interested in being able to edit via a browser
> 
> I can not imagine why I would want to.
> Why would I want to ?
> 

Because from anywhere I could connect to my home computer and edit my
libreoffice documents directly on this home computer without caring about
their synchronization or about
the fact whether libreoffice is installed on the computer that I happened to
be at.



-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Charles,

What's expensive about setting up a mailing list dedicated to the
survey and asking internally "what do we want to know about users and
how do we want to find out about it"?  Or doing some requests for
volunteers from local university statistic students? Your volunteers
don't necessarily have to start from the community you are surveying
Professionalism is not about cost; it's about preparation.  And I
wouldn't recommend another survey.  At least, I wouldn't recommend it
yet.  If you don't have money, you do have time.  Take six months to a
year to get the right elements in place. In the meantime, use less
formal ways to explore what you want to know about users (feedback
forms, mailing lists, etc).



On 11/12/2013 8:02 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> John,
> 
> I'm well aware on how to run a project;  and many comments and
> critiques I have read so far are valid. Just keep in mind that we're
> not going to run just another survey because according to some, it
> wasn't granular enough (btw: there are others who would object to your
> methodology as being too expensive to organize or as unncessary).
> Running the survey again would end up confusing the users who already
> answered. 
> 
> If you seriously would like to get involved, you should  - I mean it,
> there's no sarcasm. 
> 
> Best
> 
> Charles. 
> 
> 
> Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:54:15 -0700,
> John Meyer  a écrit :
> 
>> Okay,  I point out problems and you're response is "you don't like it
>> you can run out your own survey" and then say I'm inaccurate without
>> stating why I'm inaccurate with a solicitation for donations in the
>> previous e-mail.  Do you see the major issue here?  Flies, honey,
>> vinegar.
>>
>> I don't know how your project works, but if you're not doing the
>> proper work beforehand I don't know how it can work.  Ask anybody
>> who's run any successful project.  Heck, even the leaders of failed
>> projects can tell you.  They probably have more information.
>> First, you define your goals.  Next you gather and prepare your
>> resources.  You do a test run, maybe more than one and hope you have
>> enough time.  You have people with specific knowledge critique and
>> make adjustments.  Finally you run the project, and afterwards you
>> analyze and make improvements for the next time.  Those principals
>> apply whether you're running a for profit project or a non profit.
>> And that would be the bare bones work if I was running a local
>> project. You're going global, which involves understanding cultural
>> differences as well.  That is not the type of thing I would do with
>> an ad hoc team with nobody who has any experience in what I was doing
>> in the first place. Like I said, define the questions, gather the
>> mailing list.  And if you don't have access to anybody with
>> experience in statistics, don't launch until you do.  A badly done
>> survey is worse than none at all.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/12/2013 7:38 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
>>> Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:29:47 -0700,
>>> John Meyer  a écrit :
>>>
 You made a survey without a survey statistician on your team.  Did
 you send out a request for such a person on the mailing lists to
 advise you before you put together the survey?  Did you have a
 clear and concise question that you wanted to answer before you
 developed the survey questions?  Did you run the questions by an
 aforementioned professional in the staff and check for
 confirmation bias?
>>>
>>>
>>> No. And apparently you have little awareness of how our project
>>> works. But  you make a couple of valid points. 
>>>
 I am not a professional statistician, and that's just what I
 spotted.  I have covered surveys as a journalist in my previous
 career, though.  And I also am a veteran of setting up business
 projects.  A survey statistician would have a lot more to say I am
 sure.  And we're not even starting on the analysis.  In fact, I'd
 throw out the analysis and the results and start anew.  First off,
 define "users" (end users, evangelists, business users?) and state
 the overall purpose of your survey in a single question.
 I regret some of the tone of the previous e-mail (first e-mail
 prior to coffee), but there's nothing here to work with.  You've
 got 300 self-selected users with at least two major questions in
 one survey that you did not break out by region, sex, profession.
 You want results, you need good data underneath.
>>>
>>> You know, aside being rather inaccurate, you're welcome to run
>>> another survey. We're always looking for more volunteers. And I'm
>>> glad to help you on this, so please go ahead.
>>>
>>> best,
>>>
>>> Charles. 
>>>
>>>

 On 11/12/2013 7:04 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:57:20 -0700,
> John Meyer  a écrit :
>
>> On 11/10/2013 11:46 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> As there were some exchanges about the su

Re: [libreoffice-users] Engaging users: initial results of the survey

John,

I'm well aware on how to run a project;  and many comments and
critiques I have read so far are valid. Just keep in mind that we're
not going to run just another survey because according to some, it
wasn't granular enough (btw: there are others who would object to your
methodology as being too expensive to organize or as unncessary).
Running the survey again would end up confusing the users who already
answered. 

If you seriously would like to get involved, you should  - I mean it,
there's no sarcasm. 

Best

Charles. 


Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:54:15 -0700,
John Meyer  a écrit :

> Okay,  I point out problems and you're response is "you don't like it
> you can run out your own survey" and then say I'm inaccurate without
> stating why I'm inaccurate with a solicitation for donations in the
> previous e-mail.  Do you see the major issue here?  Flies, honey,
> vinegar.
> 
> I don't know how your project works, but if you're not doing the
> proper work beforehand I don't know how it can work.  Ask anybody
> who's run any successful project.  Heck, even the leaders of failed
> projects can tell you.  They probably have more information.
> First, you define your goals.  Next you gather and prepare your
> resources.  You do a test run, maybe more than one and hope you have
> enough time.  You have people with specific knowledge critique and
> make adjustments.  Finally you run the project, and afterwards you
> analyze and make improvements for the next time.  Those principals
> apply whether you're running a for profit project or a non profit.
> And that would be the bare bones work if I was running a local
> project. You're going global, which involves understanding cultural
> differences as well.  That is not the type of thing I would do with
> an ad hoc team with nobody who has any experience in what I was doing
> in the first place. Like I said, define the questions, gather the
> mailing list.  And if you don't have access to anybody with
> experience in statistics, don't launch until you do.  A badly done
> survey is worse than none at all.
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/12/2013 7:38 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> > Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:29:47 -0700,
> > John Meyer  a écrit :
> > 
> >> You made a survey without a survey statistician on your team.  Did
> >> you send out a request for such a person on the mailing lists to
> >> advise you before you put together the survey?  Did you have a
> >> clear and concise question that you wanted to answer before you
> >> developed the survey questions?  Did you run the questions by an
> >> aforementioned professional in the staff and check for
> >> confirmation bias?
> > 
> > 
> > No. And apparently you have little awareness of how our project
> > works. But  you make a couple of valid points. 
> > 
> >> I am not a professional statistician, and that's just what I
> >> spotted.  I have covered surveys as a journalist in my previous
> >> career, though.  And I also am a veteran of setting up business
> >> projects.  A survey statistician would have a lot more to say I am
> >> sure.  And we're not even starting on the analysis.  In fact, I'd
> >> throw out the analysis and the results and start anew.  First off,
> >> define "users" (end users, evangelists, business users?) and state
> >> the overall purpose of your survey in a single question.
> >> I regret some of the tone of the previous e-mail (first e-mail
> >> prior to coffee), but there's nothing here to work with.  You've
> >> got 300 self-selected users with at least two major questions in
> >> one survey that you did not break out by region, sex, profession.
> >> You want results, you need good data underneath.
> > 
> > You know, aside being rather inaccurate, you're welcome to run
> > another survey. We're always looking for more volunteers. And I'm
> > glad to help you on this, so please go ahead.
> > 
> > best,
> > 
> > Charles. 
> > 
> > 
> >>
> >> On 11/12/2013 7:04 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> >>> Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:57:20 -0700,
> >>> John Meyer  a écrit :
> >>>
>  On 11/10/2013 11:46 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > As there were some exchanges about the survey here and as I
> > advertised it on this mailing list as well, I thought you might
> > be interested by my initial analysis:
> > http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/11/10/users-the-final-frontier/
> >
> > Thank you for your participation!
> >
> 
> 
>  1.  The survey seems to be a Self seLected Opinion Poll (SLOP),
>  so I'm taking it with a grain of salt the size of the Sears
>  Tower. There's no margin of error included in the poll either
>  and based upon the sample as being from the mailing lists (where
>  people are generally active anyway) I'd say it's fairly skewed.
>  2.  The conclusions are generic, wishy-washy and are based on
>  guesses and assumptions with no hard underlying data.  How much
>  in contributions has LibreOffice raised?  D

Re: [libreoffice-users] Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Okay,  I point out problems and you're response is "you don't like it
you can run out your own survey" and then say I'm inaccurate without
stating why I'm inaccurate with a solicitation for donations in the
previous e-mail.  Do you see the major issue here?  Flies, honey, vinegar.

I don't know how your project works, but if you're not doing the proper
work beforehand I don't know how it can work.  Ask anybody who's run any
successful project.  Heck, even the leaders of failed projects can tell
you.  They probably have more information.
First, you define your goals.  Next you gather and prepare your
resources.  You do a test run, maybe more than one and hope you have
enough time.  You have people with specific knowledge critique and make
adjustments.  Finally you run the project, and afterwards you analyze
and make improvements for the next time.  Those principals apply whether
you're running a for profit project or a non profit.
And that would be the bare bones work if I was running a local project.
 You're going global, which involves understanding cultural differences
as well.  That is not the type of thing I would do with an ad hoc team
with nobody who has any experience in what I was doing in the first place.
Like I said, define the questions, gather the mailing list.  And if you
don't have access to anybody with experience in statistics, don't launch
until you do.  A badly done survey is worse than none at all.

On 11/12/2013 7:38 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:29:47 -0700,
> John Meyer  a écrit :
> 
>> You made a survey without a survey statistician on your team.  Did you
>> send out a request for such a person on the mailing lists to advise
>> you before you put together the survey?  Did you have a clear and
>> concise question that you wanted to answer before you developed the
>> survey questions?  Did you run the questions by an aforementioned
>> professional in the staff and check for confirmation bias?
> 
> 
> No. And apparently you have little awareness of how our project works.
> But  you make a couple of valid points. 
> 
>> I am not a professional statistician, and that's just what I
>> spotted.  I have covered surveys as a journalist in my previous
>> career, though.  And I also am a veteran of setting up business
>> projects.  A survey statistician would have a lot more to say I am
>> sure.  And we're not even starting on the analysis.  In fact, I'd
>> throw out the analysis and the results and start anew.  First off,
>> define "users" (end users, evangelists, business users?) and state
>> the overall purpose of your survey in a single question.
>> I regret some of the tone of the previous e-mail (first e-mail prior
>> to coffee), but there's nothing here to work with.  You've got 300
>> self-selected users with at least two major questions in one survey
>> that you did not break out by region, sex, profession.  You want
>> results, you need good data underneath.
> 
> You know, aside being rather inaccurate, you're welcome to run another
> survey. We're always looking for more volunteers. And I'm glad to help
> you on this, so please go ahead.
> 
> best,
> 
> Charles. 
> 
> 
>>
>> On 11/12/2013 7:04 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
>>> Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:57:20 -0700,
>>> John Meyer  a écrit :
>>>
 On 11/10/2013 11:46 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> Hello,
>
> As there were some exchanges about the survey here and as I
> advertised it on this mailing list as well, I thought you might be
> interested by my initial analysis:
> http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/11/10/users-the-final-frontier/
>
> Thank you for your participation!
>

 1.  The survey seems to be a Self seLected Opinion Poll (SLOP), so
 I'm taking it with a grain of salt the size of the Sears Tower.
 There's no margin of error included in the poll either and based
 upon the sample as being from the mailing lists (where people are
 generally active anyway) I'd say it's fairly skewed.
 2.  The conclusions are generic, wishy-washy and are based on
 guesses and assumptions with no hard underlying data.  How much in
 contributions has LibreOffice raised?  Does that fit in with what
 the survey said? Where is the Quality Assurance in the web site?
 And why would an end user be interested in that?
 3.  User support and quality assurance do not require too much
 time or technical knowledge.  Remind me not to hire you for either
 of those tasks in my business.  Those are things that professional
 companies hire entire other companies to do.

 I'd give this project an F in a freshman statistics class, and
 would not base any strategy off of this "survey"

>>>
>>> Thanks John, I'll take it  from your comment that
>>>  1) you are either a survey professional and you only wait for the
>>> next survey to contribute your time designing it
>>>
>>> and/or 
>>>
>>>  2) you will contribute the

Re: [libreoffice-users] Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 07:29:47 -0700,
John Meyer  a écrit :

> You made a survey without a survey statistician on your team.  Did you
> send out a request for such a person on the mailing lists to advise
> you before you put together the survey?  Did you have a clear and
> concise question that you wanted to answer before you developed the
> survey questions?  Did you run the questions by an aforementioned
> professional in the staff and check for confirmation bias?


No. And apparently you have little awareness of how our project works.
But  you make a couple of valid points. 

> I am not a professional statistician, and that's just what I
> spotted.  I have covered surveys as a journalist in my previous
> career, though.  And I also am a veteran of setting up business
> projects.  A survey statistician would have a lot more to say I am
> sure.  And we're not even starting on the analysis.  In fact, I'd
> throw out the analysis and the results and start anew.  First off,
> define "users" (end users, evangelists, business users?) and state
> the overall purpose of your survey in a single question.
> I regret some of the tone of the previous e-mail (first e-mail prior
> to coffee), but there's nothing here to work with.  You've got 300
> self-selected users with at least two major questions in one survey
> that you did not break out by region, sex, profession.  You want
> results, you need good data underneath.

You know, aside being rather inaccurate, you're welcome to run another
survey. We're always looking for more volunteers. And I'm glad to help
you on this, so please go ahead.

best,

Charles. 


> 
> On 11/12/2013 7:04 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> > Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:57:20 -0700,
> > John Meyer  a écrit :
> > 
> >> On 11/10/2013 11:46 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> As there were some exchanges about the survey here and as I
> >>> advertised it on this mailing list as well, I thought you might be
> >>> interested by my initial analysis:
> >>> http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/11/10/users-the-final-frontier/
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for your participation!
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> 1.  The survey seems to be a Self seLected Opinion Poll (SLOP), so
> >> I'm taking it with a grain of salt the size of the Sears Tower.
> >> There's no margin of error included in the poll either and based
> >> upon the sample as being from the mailing lists (where people are
> >> generally active anyway) I'd say it's fairly skewed.
> >> 2.  The conclusions are generic, wishy-washy and are based on
> >> guesses and assumptions with no hard underlying data.  How much in
> >> contributions has LibreOffice raised?  Does that fit in with what
> >> the survey said? Where is the Quality Assurance in the web site?
> >> And why would an end user be interested in that?
> >> 3.  User support and quality assurance do not require too much
> >> time or technical knowledge.  Remind me not to hire you for either
> >> of those tasks in my business.  Those are things that professional
> >> companies hire entire other companies to do.
> >>
> >> I'd give this project an F in a freshman statistics class, and
> >> would not base any strategy off of this "survey"
> >>
> > 
> > Thanks John, I'll take it  from your comment that
> >  1) you are either a survey professional and you only wait for the
> > next survey to contribute your time designing it
> > 
> > and/or 
> > 
> >  2) you will contribute the costs of hiring a market research firm
> > the next time we need a survey. 
> > 
> > Allegedly, I and none of the other people who designed the survey
> > are professional survey designers. 
> > 
> > Best,
> > 
> 
> 



-- 
Charles-H. Schulz 
Co-founder, The Document Foundation,
Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
Mobile Number: +33 (0)6 98 65 54 24.


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Engaging users: initial results of the survey

You made a survey without a survey statistician on your team.  Did you
send out a request for such a person on the mailing lists to advise you
before you put together the survey?  Did you have a clear and concise
question that you wanted to answer before you developed the survey
questions?  Did you run the questions by an aforementioned professional
in the staff and check for confirmation bias?
I am not a professional statistician, and that's just what I spotted.  I
have covered surveys as a journalist in my previous career, though.  And
I also am a veteran of setting up business projects.  A survey
statistician would have a lot more to say I am sure.  And we're not even
starting on the analysis.  In fact, I'd throw out the analysis and the
results and start anew.  First off, define "users" (end users,
evangelists, business users?) and state the overall purpose of your
survey in a single question.
I regret some of the tone of the previous e-mail (first e-mail prior to
coffee), but there's nothing here to work with.  You've got 300
self-selected users with at least two major questions in one survey that
you did not break out by region, sex, profession.  You want results, you
need good data underneath.

On 11/12/2013 7:04 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:57:20 -0700,
> John Meyer  a écrit :
> 
>> On 11/10/2013 11:46 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> As there were some exchanges about the survey here and as I
>>> advertised it on this mailing list as well, I thought you might be
>>> interested by my initial analysis:
>>> http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/11/10/users-the-final-frontier/
>>>
>>> Thank you for your participation!
>>>
>>
>>
>> 1.  The survey seems to be a Self seLected Opinion Poll (SLOP), so I'm
>> taking it with a grain of salt the size of the Sears Tower.  There's
>> no margin of error included in the poll either and based upon the
>> sample as being from the mailing lists (where people are generally
>> active anyway) I'd say it's fairly skewed.
>> 2.  The conclusions are generic, wishy-washy and are based on guesses
>> and assumptions with no hard underlying data.  How much in
>> contributions has LibreOffice raised?  Does that fit in with what the
>> survey said? Where is the Quality Assurance in the web site?  And why
>> would an end user be interested in that?
>> 3.  User support and quality assurance do not require too much time or
>> technical knowledge.  Remind me not to hire you for either of those
>> tasks in my business.  Those are things that professional companies
>> hire entire other companies to do.
>>
>> I'd give this project an F in a freshman statistics class, and would
>> not base any strategy off of this "survey"
>>
> 
> Thanks John, I'll take it  from your comment that
>  1) you are either a survey professional and you only wait for the next
>  survey to contribute your time designing it
> 
> and/or 
> 
>  2) you will contribute the costs of hiring a market research firm the
>  next time we need a survey. 
> 
> Allegedly, I and none of the other people who designed the survey are
> professional survey designers. 
> 
> Best,
> 

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] On Reporting Bugs

2013-11-12 Thread Oogie McGuire

For me I tried to navigate bugzilla to report  continuing bugs where 2 
formatting issues occur regularly:

1. Some cells in Calc have mixed size formatting in them or mixed fonts (parts 
are in Geneva 10 and parts in Geneva 12) I can go in by hand to each cell, 
select the piece that is the wrong size (12 point) change the font size and 
save the spreadsheet. At some point in the future (and no it is not 
consistently the next time) I re-open the file and those corrections are gone, 
the fonts are back to mixed size. It happens all the time but I can' get a 
small spreadsheet to demonstrate the problem. The one I am using that has the 
problem contains 15 years worth of sheep data and records and has a number of 
separate sheets in it. I've tried to copy out smaller sections and while I can 
get the small ones to have the mixed font issue when I change the font in them 
it seems to stay changed. 

2. Alternatively I click on the upper left blank cell above the row and column 
number lines to select the entire spreadsheet. Change the font and or size . 
Cells with a single font and size in the text change as expected but any cells 
with mixed sizes do not. 

Unfortunately bugzilla is worse than difficult to use and now it's even harder 
to find out how to do that. 

On Nov 12, 2013, at 6:53 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:

> Yet another way to look at it is that the number of volunteers
> reporting the bug or making it an issue to tackle over the various
> collaborative and communication channels we have around the project.

Eugenie (Oogie) McGuire 
Desert Weyr http://www.desertweyr.com/  
Paonia, CO USA

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Bug/Enhancement request - Document Compatibility Submission Page/Service - WAS: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

2013-11-12 Thread Tanstaafl


On 2013-11-12 8:53 AM, Tanstaafl  wrote:
> How do I just log into the bug reporting system and search it? Anyone?

Ok, so I just decided to go ahead and go through the submission process, 
and afterwards was finally able to search. I didn't find any similar 
bugs, so I added a single comment to confirm it...


Bug is here:

https://www.libreoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=71534

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Frutiger Font Problem

2013-11-12 Thread Uli Geisler

Hi I'm using the Frutiger Font (ttf, linotype) for several Years now for 
my work an have al lot of Documents and Templates.


Since upgrading to ubuntu 13.10 (libreoffice upgraded to 4.1.2) the 
Frutiger isn't displayed correct in libreoffice-writer. Only the top 
half of the Font is visible. If I'm marking Text with the Mouse, the 
mark is beside the words. And the spaces between lines of the same 
paragraph are different. Typed Characters are displayed after a long delay


But if I export the Document to PDF, everything is right. If I use the 
Frutiger with XeTeX everything is OK. Now I switched to opensuse with 
libreoffice 3.6 - everything is fine.


I tryed to Download an install libreoffice 4.1.3 from libreoffice.org: 
Same Problems. I think, it's a Problem of libreoffice an not ubuntu or 
opensuse...


Does anyone else have similar Problems - and how can I solve them?

(...and sorry for my english...)

Uli

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 06:57:20 -0700,
John Meyer  a écrit :

> On 11/10/2013 11:46 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > As there were some exchanges about the survey here and as I
> > advertised it on this mailing list as well, I thought you might be
> > interested by my initial analysis:
> > http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/11/10/users-the-final-frontier/
> > 
> > Thank you for your participation!
> > 
> 
> 
> 1.  The survey seems to be a Self seLected Opinion Poll (SLOP), so I'm
> taking it with a grain of salt the size of the Sears Tower.  There's
> no margin of error included in the poll either and based upon the
> sample as being from the mailing lists (where people are generally
> active anyway) I'd say it's fairly skewed.
> 2.  The conclusions are generic, wishy-washy and are based on guesses
> and assumptions with no hard underlying data.  How much in
> contributions has LibreOffice raised?  Does that fit in with what the
> survey said? Where is the Quality Assurance in the web site?  And why
> would an end user be interested in that?
> 3.  User support and quality assurance do not require too much time or
> technical knowledge.  Remind me not to hire you for either of those
> tasks in my business.  Those are things that professional companies
> hire entire other companies to do.
> 
> I'd give this project an F in a freshman statistics class, and would
> not base any strategy off of this "survey"
> 

Thanks John, I'll take it  from your comment that
 1) you are either a survey professional and you only wait for the next
 survey to contribute your time designing it

and/or 

 2) you will contribute the costs of hiring a market research firm the
 next time we need a survey. 

Allegedly, I and none of the other people who designed the survey are
professional survey designers. 

Best,

-- 
Charles-H. Schulz 
Co-founder, The Document Foundation,
Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
Mobile Number: +33 (0)6 98 65 54 24.


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Engaging users: initial results of the survey

On 11/10/2013 11:46 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> As there were some exchanges about the survey here and as I advertised
> it on this mailing list as well, I thought you might be interested by
> my initial analysis:
> http://standardsandfreedom.net/index.php/2013/11/10/users-the-final-frontier/
> 
> Thank you for your participation!
> 

1.  The survey seems to be a Self seLected Opinion Poll (SLOP), so I'm
taking it with a grain of salt the size of the Sears Tower.  There's no
margin of error included in the poll either and based upon the sample as
being from the mailing lists (where people are generally active anyway)
I'd say it's fairly skewed.
2.  The conclusions are generic, wishy-washy and are based on guesses
and assumptions with no hard underlying data.  How much in contributions
has LibreOffice raised?  Does that fit in with what the survey said?
Where is the Quality Assurance in the web site?  And why would an end
user be interested in that?
3.  User support and quality assurance do not require too much time or
technical knowledge.  Remind me not to hire you for either of those
tasks in my business.  Those are things that professional companies hire
entire other companies to do.

I'd give this project an F in a freshman statistics class, and would not
base any strategy off of this "survey"

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Paul,

Just completing Pedro's answers inline...

Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:23:31 -0800 (PST),
Pedro  a écrit :

> Paul-6 wrote
> > I think there's a dangerous perception here: The perception that
> > the LO developers work on nothing except what they want to work on.
> 
> I didn't mean to say that.
> I'm aware that some developers work on whatever is needed and fix the
> most urgent bugs/regressions.
> But out of 300 developers, there must be people who can fix the
> "boring" bugs and the "not important" bugs... Of course you would
> have to ask these developers to start with bug #1 and fix it before
> moving to #2
> 
> Michael Meeks once wrote "Developers don't like to be told what to
> do". I'm sure they don't. But if nobody does then there is no
> solution for bugs that keep lingering...

and nobody says the system is perfect. ;-)
But to come back to Paul's objection, yes, developers work on what they
want to work on. Their motivation can be anything from a salary to some
dream they want or yet another thing that keeps them awake at night.
Somewhere in between I'm sure there's a reasonable guy . But "whatever
is needed" is prone to a wide range of interpretation. 

Let me give you an example. While "your" bug (good point Pedro, by the
way) wasn't being fixed, some guy called Caolan McNamara, who wrote the
code of the word processing module back in the days of OpenOffice.org
took on the daunting task of rewriting the entire graphical system of
LibreOffice. And mind you, we're talking about over 6Million lines of
code for a suite like LibreOffice. Was it necessary? Hell yes. Was it a
high priority? Absolutely. Did he have the time to focus on the bug
you're mentioning? No. 

But to him, this objective was of the highest  importance and it was
*sorely* needed. I'm not saying the bug you reported wasn't important.
I'm saying that while you may be complaining, others are cheering.
Other bugs get fixed. See my point? 


> 
> 
> Paul-6 wrote
> > I have pointed out in the past that you cannot expect a developer to
> > work on your bug, because there is nothing forcing him to work on
> > anything but what he wants to, but that doesn't mean that is all he
> > does. It means you can't *force* him to work on what *you* want him
> > to work on. I'm sure the developers *do* give careful consideration
> > to what they work on, it just might not be what you feel they
> > should work on, but they've got a bigger picture than you.
> 
> First, it's not *my* bug. The bug is the software. The software is
> not mine. Second, many times I already have a solution for the
> problem. I only report it so that the bug is fixed for the benefit of
> the community. I even report bugs that don't affect me at all.

+1


> Third, "there is nothing forcing him to work on anything but what he
> wants to" is exactly the problem IMO.

And yet that's how most of the FOSS projects work. But then again, no
system is perfect. 


> 
> 
> Paul-6 wrote
> > Remember, we do have to keep the developers happy to some extent,
> > otherwise they leave.
> 
> Yes, so do other people. But they are not so important, right?
> If you can't tell developers what to do, some bugs will always be
> there because they are boring to fix or because they are "not
> important".
> 
> I'm suggesting that a compromise based volunteer model is applied to
> all, not just to developers. Then you might start to see a change and
> a real community ;)


Motivation is a hard thing to assess. Rather than reaching a
compromise in abstracto, I'd say that the compromise is found through
social engineering and everyone's motivation. Let's say that you are
reporting bugs on a regular basis. Some of these bugs are particularly
hairy ones, and it catches developers' attention. It's likely that
after two or three bug reports of that kind, developers, at least some
of them, might be paying attention. 

Yet another way to look at it is that the number of volunteers
reporting the bug or making it an issue to tackle over the various
collaborative and communication channels we have around the project.
Basically, this is an invitation to contribute and get recognized. By
contributing, you get recognized, you get bonus points, and your
credibility grows. Mind you, it works the same way for developers. And
because of that, the fact that you, a known contributor points out that
there's a leftover bugfix that may even already have a solution has
more chances to get fixed.

Hope this helps,

-- 
Charles-H. Schulz 
Co-founder, The Document Foundation,
Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin
Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
Mobile Number: +33 (0)6 98 65 54 24.


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

2013-11-12 Thread Tanstaafl

CC'ing the website list because it is about the website, but I'm not 
subscribed, so please CC me on replies if you really want to discuss 
this complaint.


On 2013-11-12 5:53 AM, Michael Meeks  wrote:

The problem of course is that there is no queue of bugs-to-fix. We try
to prioritize issues, so that we can see those that are seriously
debilitating and then try to fix those on a best-effort basis.


This prompted me to go file a bug (Feature Request) for something I've 
been meaning to file for some time now, then I couldn't remember if I'd 
already done it before, so I wanted to check and see...


Well... I must say, I am horrified by what I found.

The 'new' website is extraordinarily difficult to navigate if you want 
to do anything other than download the latest version.


My simple goal was to log into the Bug system, check 'My Bugs' and see 
if I'd reported this yet, and if not, report it...


1. after going to www.libreoffice.org, why do I have to first find and 
click on 'Main Website' to get to ... the main website? Why isn't 
www.libreoffice.org the main website?


2. After going to the main website, I clicked on 'Get Help', and then 
clicked on 'Bug'...


The only option here is to report a bug.

What if I don't want to report a bug, but only want to search for bugs?

Even after I log in, the only next step available is to continue 
reporting a bug I don't want/need to report!?


This is HORRIBLY BROKEN.

How do I just log into the bug reporting system and search it? Anyone?

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Paul-6 wrote
> I think there's a dangerous perception here: The perception that the LO
> developers work on nothing except what they want to work on.

I didn't mean to say that.
I'm aware that some developers work on whatever is needed and fix the most
urgent bugs/regressions.
But out of 300 developers, there must be people who can fix the "boring"
bugs and the "not important" bugs... Of course you would have to ask these
developers to start with bug #1 and fix it before moving to #2

Michael Meeks once wrote "Developers don't like to be told what to do". I'm
sure they don't. But if nobody does then there is no solution for bugs that
keep lingering...


Paul-6 wrote
> I have pointed out in the past that you cannot expect a developer to
> work on your bug, because there is nothing forcing him to work on
> anything but what he wants to, but that doesn't mean that is all he
> does. It means you can't *force* him to work on what *you* want him to
> work on. I'm sure the developers *do* give careful consideration to
> what they work on, it just might not be what you feel they should work
> on, but they've got a bigger picture than you.

First, it's not *my* bug. The bug is the software. The software is not mine.
Second, many times I already have a solution for the problem. I only report
it so that the bug is fixed for the benefit of the community. I even report
bugs that don't affect me at all.
Third, "there is nothing forcing him to work on anything but what he wants
to" is exactly the problem IMO.


Paul-6 wrote
> Remember, we do have to keep the developers happy to some extent,
> otherwise they leave.

Yes, so do other people. But they are not so important, right?
If you can't tell developers what to do, some bugs will always be there
because they are boring to fix or because they are "not important".

I'm suggesting that a compromise based volunteer model is applied to all,
not just to developers. Then you might start to see a change and a real
community ;)





--
View this message in context: 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Engaging-users-initial-results-of-the-survey-tp4082398p4082726.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

I think there's a dangerous perception here: The perception that the LO
developers work on nothing except what they want to work on.

I'm pretty sure that that is very false. They work on LO because they
want to work on LO, and they probably choose what to work on based on
at least the following:

a) How many people report a specific bug
b) How serious that bug is to people's productivity
c) How in line that bug is with current roadmaps
d) Regression bugs probably have higher priority
e) What parts of the system they know the best
f) How much time they have at the moment, and how big the bug is
g) How much fun they think it will be (or more likely, which bug will
be the least annoying to fix)

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 04:24:03 -0800 (PST)
Pedro  wrote:

> The logic that "a bug is not important because not many people report
> it" has a big flaw: most people give up without bothering to
> report... (and in the case of Bugzilla, reporting requires quite a
> lot of effort)
This logic may not be true in an absolute sense, but consider that it's
not normally a question of how important the bug is on its own merits,
but how important the bug is compared to other bugs. If 50 people have
reported bug A and only 2 people have reported bug B, while bug B may
still be important, and there may be another 20 people who haven't
reported it, it is not as important as bug A, and there may be another
20 people who haven't reported bug A as well.

> In other volunteer based organizations (humanistic, animal
> protection, etc), people agree to do work on tasks attributed to them
> even if that is not what they feel like doing. The "do whatever you
> feel like" model doesn't work.
And I don't think anybody is suggesting that that model is the
predominant one here.

I have pointed out in the past that you cannot expect a developer to
work on your bug, because there is nothing forcing him to work on
anything but what he wants to, but that doesn't mean that is all he
does. It means you can't *force* him to work on what *you* want him to
work on. I'm sure the developers *do* give careful consideration to
what they work on, it just might not be what you feel they should work
on, but they've got a bigger picture than you.

Remember, we do have to keep the developers happy to some extent,
otherwise they leave. This is true even if they are getting paid (I've
left more than one company which was paying me, because I was unhappy
with some other aspect of the situation), and especially true if they
are not getting paid. Also, just because they don't prioritise the bugs
you think are important, doesn't mean they are cherry-picking just the
bugs they like, it probably just means they had other, more important
things to deal with.

Just something to keep in mind.

Paul

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Stefan Weigel wrote
> Am 12.11.2013 11:46, schrieb Michael Meeks:
> 
>> [ given the vast disparity in time-to-file (1 minute) vs.
>> time-to-fix (5 man days avg) ]
> 
> ...in correlation with 1 developer investing 5 days to fix it vs.
> maybe hundreds, thousands or even hundreds of thousands of users
> wasting for example 5 minutes per day due to the bug.

+1

Plus the hundreds of thousands that give up on LO *because* of the bug.

The logic that "a bug is not important because not many people report it"
has a big flaw: most people give up without bothering to report... (and in
the case of Bugzilla, reporting requires quite a lot of effort)

My suggestion? Change volunteer model. 

In other volunteer based organizations (humanistic, animal protection, etc),
people agree to do work on tasks attributed to them even if that is not what
they feel like doing. The "do whatever you feel like" model doesn't work.

My 2 cents.



--
View this message in context: 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Engaging-users-initial-results-of-the-survey-tp4082398p4082719.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

2013-11-12 Thread Stefan Weigel

Servus Micheal,

true, what you are saying, but one little thing:

Am 12.11.2013 11:46, schrieb Michael Meeks:

> [ given the vast disparity in time-to-file (1 minute) vs.
> time-to-fix (5 man days avg) ]

...in correlation with 1 developer investing 5 days to fix it vs.
maybe hundreds, thousands or even hundreds of thousands of users
wasting for example 5 minutes per day due to the bug.

:-D

Cheers,
Stefan


-- 
LibreOffice - Die Freiheit nehm' ich mir!

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

2013-11-12 Thread Michael Meeks

Hi Urmas,

On Tue, 2013-11-12 at 05:35 +0700, Urmas wrote:
> Then why does the LO site not feature a warning on a front page: "User,
> you are ...

So - trying to condense something positive out of this; it sounds like
we should have something (perhaps in the BSA) that explains to
newcomers, that bug filing is appreciated - but having an expectation
that their bug is fixed and/or prioritized over others, or a feeling of
entitlement that because you filed it - we should fix it [ given the
vast disparity in time-to-file (1 minute) vs. time-to-fix (5 man days
avg) ].

I assume it would help smooth the flow of people feeling unreasonably
irritated if we had some more helpful text like that ? if so, it'd be
great to have a draft we can hand on to Rob / Cloph to put somewhere
there in some "About bug filing" page, perhaps after filing.

> One cannot build straw airplanes for 25 years instead of listening to 
> feedback ...

I listen to feedback a lot =)

ATB,

Michael.

-- 
 michael.me...@collabora.com  <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

2013-11-12 Thread Michael Meeks

Hi Ken,

On Mon, 2013-11-11 at 11:33 -0700, Ken Springer wrote:
> After using LO for awhile, I found and filed a couple of bugs/issues.  I 
> wanted to contribute in the area of reporting issues, but I don't have 
> the knowledge to fix them.  I didn't expect those problems to go to the 
> head of the line.  But I *did* expect them to be put in the queue and 
> eventually fixed.

The problem of course is that there is no queue of bugs-to-fix. We try
to prioritize issues, so that we can see those that are seriously
debilitating and then try to fix those on a best-effort basis.

> What I didn't like was being told my issues were not important.  BS! 
> It's important to me.

This is the interesting piece to me. Can you expand on your experience
there ? clearly all bugs are important to someone - but not all are
'Critical' or whatever from a prioritization perspective. Nevertheless,
perhaps the naming of those prioritization is needlessly offensive.
Potentially with our new bugzilla we could use P1 -> P6 or whatever -
making it clear that this is a spectrum.

> Let's say you have a car, and every 4th time you go to use it, it won't 
> start.  You take it to your mechanic, and each time you do, he tells you 
> "it's not important, he's got bigger problems to solve".  Are you going 
> to continue to take it to that mechanic, or are you going to find a 
> different mechanic?

I'm really not sure that there are any mechanics out there that do work
for free; I've not met one. Of course - if you want to pay for a bug to
be fixed, our level-3 bug queue has only a handful of open-bugs, and
they turn over on a weekly basis. But I strongly suspect you don't want
to pay.

So - perhaps a more apt analogy is taking your car to a local friendly
volunteer / free mechanic down the road who helps people out of the
goodness of their heart - and berating them for not spending a week
investigating and fixing the squeak in your suspension -now- because
he's been working trying to get other people's car's to start at all ;-)

Anyhow - there is no desire to offend people through the prioritization
flow; that is a really critically useful function of QA though - so
ideas on how we can improve that appreciated.

All the best,

Michael.

-- 
 michael.me...@collabora.com  <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi Ken


snowshed wrote
> But, basic things should work right.  In my list I have here, but have 
> not tested in 4.x.x

You are right. It is sometimes amazing how simple things don't work or stop
working (regressions)...
But overall they tend to get better. I sincerely recommend that you give
version 4.1.3 a go.
If it still doesn't work for you, then try again when 4.1.6 is out. Or
4.2.3... Never try x.0 versions ;)


snowshed wrote
> No, but the quality mechanic says "I'm booked up for a month, if you can 
> wait that long."  Then he'll fix it, he won't ignore you.  That gives 
> you the option of waiting or finding a new mechanic. 

Very interesting point. That is indeed one of the flaws in the volunteer
method used in this project...
There are other volunteer models that would probably work better.


snowshed wrote
> Contributing by reporting issues is all I can do for any software, but 
> eventually you hope to see things you find fixed.  You find theses 
> problems because they are features of a software package that you use. 
> After some period of time, when things don't get fixed, you begin to 
> think, "Why bother?"

That is another good point. If people bother to report a bug and it is not
fixed for years (no matter how small or insignificant) then they are very
unlikely to bother to report another one...

In the end, the main enemies of this project are: the sheer size of the
project and  the volunteer "do only what you feel like" model.

Best regards,
Pedro



--
View this message in context: 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Engaging-users-initial-results-of-the-survey-tp4082398p4082711.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Hi Jim


James E. Lang wrote
> Pardon my ignorance. I don't even know what Nabble or gmane are. If they
> are "social media" then this old geezer doesn't participate and that's by
> choice. Mailing lists, product specific forums, and even (to a limited
> extent) IRC channels are fine.

Nabble is an interface for a mailing list. For instance you can see this
discussion in a tree view here
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Engaging-users-initial-results-of-the-survey-tp4082398.html


James E. Lang wrote
>>> What's the point of "Ask LibreOffice" if each question is seen, say,
>>> 3 times in a one week period? Most questions are unanswered.
>>> Similarly with LibreOffice forum. A user might not bother to sign up
>>> to such a method that is hardly ever used by relevant users; and if
>>> it goes through it anyway and no answer is provided (as it is the
>>> case with most "Ask LibreOffice" topics), it would probably generate
>>> a rejection response towards LibreOffice.
> 
> What is "Ask LibreOffice?" How is it accessed?

Ask LibreOffice refers to http://ask.libreoffice.org
You can login to ask or answer just by e.g. using your Gmail account, no
need for a new registration.

Regarding the comments you are quoting, I can only say that people answering
questions are volunteers (such as myself) and they can (and should) only
answer when they know an answer. If someone asks e.g. how do I use LO to
print sideways in a Mac, personally I have no idea because I never used a
Mac, so I leave the question unanswered...

Secondly since collaborating is volunteer, I don't feel obliged to step by
every day or scrolling through all the unanswered questions since my last
visit... I hope that there are enough collaborators so that at any moment a
question could be answered by someone.

My 2 (voluntary) cents.

FYI I'm not a member or affiliated with TDF or linked to this project in any
way. All my contributions are voluntary and free :)



--
View this message in context: 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Engaging-users-initial-results-of-the-survey-tp4082398p4082707.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

[libreoffice-users] Re: CALC convert text to numbers

2013-11-12 Thread Tinkerer

Brian

If you are using a Mac 10.9 then you can move a Tool Bar icon simply by
clicking on the gap to the right of the icon.
When the "object" frame appears, drag the fame to where you want the icon,
let go and the icon will move.

I use CT2N when I copy and paste from a web site and it works, with one
exception.
If the number is prefixed by a currency sign, CT2N does not work.
Cor very kindly gave me a solution.
In your Macros you will find CT2N
In the module Main Code, find function Check for Text in String.
There you can find the line,  'new in 1.2.0: allow for negative numbers:
-=45, (=40,)=41
 Elseif j=45 AND i=1 Then'
You can then insert before, or immediately after that line, 'Elseif j = 163
AND i = 1 Then ' allow for £'
(Ignore the ' at the beginning and the end of the insert.)
This also works, Many thanks, Cor.

Tink.



--
View this message in context: 
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/CALC-convert-text-to-numbers-tp4082413p4082704.html
Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

2013-11-12 Thread Tom Davies

Hi :)
If a troll gets banned they usually just find another new name or even
go so far as to set-up a new free email account

The only ways that seem to work are
1.  To let them know their behaviour is being (possibly) misconstrued
as unhelpful and unfriendly
2.  avoid taking any notice of them when they are being bad  (ie
"don;t feed the troll")

Obviously mixing 2 with 1 won't work so we try 1 first and then stick
with 2.  That is why no-one is responding to your request.  So now
Urmas knows he can stir-up a reaction out of 1 person by using bad
language but he/she has seen that no-one else reacts.  So Urmas will
probably move on to other tactics such as using lots of capital
letters to simulate shouting and trying to find topics that "get under
people's skin" in order to try to provoke reactions that way.

Note that Urmas is a bit unusual for a troll in that he/she does give
some quite good answers sometimes, although that might be part of the
overall strategy.

I tend to find that trolls either get bored and go away or just look
increasingly ridiculous and laughable OR their behaviour shifts into
becoming more acceptable.  It's this last group that are often of more
value to the community than most people because all their angst and
angry energy can be a very positive driving force when it's not being
so badly misdirected.

Reacting to the trolls bad behaviour makes it look like we have no
idea how to control our own doorstep.  At the very worst, if they are
being paid by MS to stir up trouble, then by ignoring them and
continuing to give happy&friendly or professional&cool answers then
the mailing list looks much more like a good place for users to get
help from.  If you have ever been to a nightclub that has "bouncers"
on the door or to a posh hotel with a concierge standing out the front
then you might have noticed how their never seems to be any fight
going on out the front.  Even if the bouncer/concierge was absolutely,
unquestioningly right the venue/hotel loses it's good name and the
bouncer/concierge loses their job and finds it difficult to get
similar work elsewhere in town.  The trick is to make it obvious that
trying to start a fight wont get anywhere.

So, don't worry.  We do have experience of dealing with this situation
and it is being dealt with even though it's not obvious on the
surface.
Regards from
Tom :)

On 11 November 2013 22:44, Paul  wrote:
> Please can somebody ban him for bad language?
>
>
> On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 05:35:01 +0700
> "Urmas"  wrote:
>
>> "Charles-H. Schulz":
>>
>> Also, it might be useful to remember that developers tend to
>> contribute because they only want to and find a particular interest in
>> doing so. Maybe it's for a plain old business interest, but when
>> you're a volunteer developer, which is the case of the largest
>> majority of developers on LibreOffice, you contribute because it's
>> fun or you just want to help with specific things that bug you (not
>> necessarily the others).
>>
>> Then why does the LO site not feature a warning on a front page:
>> "User, you are *freeloading shit*. You are of *no consequence*. Your
>> opinion does not matter."? In the present state it is a clear, intent
>> disinformation of the customer about the nature of the product.
>>
>> One cannot build straw airplanes for 25 years instead of listening to
>> feedback, copycat random features then come and say: "We are a viable
>> alternative!"
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
> Problems? 
> http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
>

-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey

Le Tue, 12 Nov 2013 09:17:31 +0100,
Alexander Thurgood  a écrit :

> Le 11/11/13 12:19, Charles-H. Schulz a écrit :
> 
> 
> Hi Charles,
> 
> > Next time I'm  sure you can join us in the weeks during which we
> > discussed the survey on the marketing and project's list :-)
> >>
> 
> Gladly, but the main reason I'm not on, or only rarely follow, the
> marketing list, is because of what I see as the zealotist atmosphere
> that tends to reign there. I have nothing against being keen to
> support and promote a product, but I draw the line at losing all
> objectivity. Unfortunately, that is how I perceive the marketing list
> to function.

Well, I truly hope we're changing that perception and that the
marketing list can be a place for collaborative work :-)


> 
> 
> >>
> >> - penetration of the product;
> > 
> > I honestly would not  think there's relevant data for this in the
> > survey and from the respondents.
> 
> Hmm, yes, I realize that, but neither was that my intention in that
> particular statement. What I meant is that this survey appears not to
> have been promoted in such a way as to maximise the number of
> returns. I can imagine a number of reasons for this, but I wonder if
> you remember, back in the old days of Sun StarOffice, when Sun ran a
> user-oriented survey that was linked to the installation (or
> post-installation / start-up / one month's use) of the product ?
> 
> Although this might have seemed invasive to many at the time (I really
> don't know), I actually feel that this is quite a good idea to borrow
> from, much in the same way that the download page now links you to
> donations to LibreOffice, perhaps it would be possible to organise
> future surveys via a similar mechanism ?  In other words, make it so
> that, say, after a period of one month from the initial installation
> of LO, that the user be directed to a web page to participate in a
> survey relating to the usage or desiderata of the product (from the
> user's perspective, of course).
> 

I do remember it well, but it sure came with lots of criticism too
(much more than the present one). 

> 
> 
> > 
> >> - reach of the survey;
> > 
> > Good question with no easy answer. The survey was localized in 5
> > languages aside English. The link was posted here and on the several
> > other users mailing lists. The word was spread on the Facebook
> > LibreOffice page and Google+ and to a lesser extent on Twitter. 
> 
> Yes, and it felt to me that people who were already on the mailing
> lists would more likely be inclined to attempt to respond to the
> survey anyway, since that means of communication was used foremost
> (it is how I found out about the existence of the survey). Certainly,
> that seems to have been the behavioural response on this list. Again,
> this would be considered normal behaviour for people who are already
> on the project mailing lists and occasionally like to have a say in,
> or just follow, contributions from others. "Preaching to the
> converted", I believe the French say.
> 
> 
> > - the survey could have had a bigger and much deeper outreach if  it
> >   had been pushed directly to the users, say at the installation
> > phase or even through a mechanism allowing users to respond to it
> > via the StartCenter. That was obviously not the case, so in the end
> > we reached out the users who are on the project's mailing list and
> >   connected to us through our social networks. This leaves out
> > plenty of users irrespective of their language. 
> 
> 
> Yes, I understand, hence my suggestion above to think back to how Sun
> went about handling a similar situation.

My honest answer would be: not enough resources. 

> 
> > 
> > 
> >> - design of the survey;
> > 
> > What would you like to know? The survey was designed in order to be
> > progressive in its questioning as should be all the surveys. Beyond
> > that, don't look too much into survey methodologies, I'm not sure
> > they are that sophisticated, unless of course you would like to get
> > a particular answer in advance, and that's precisely what  we
> > wanted to avoid.
> 
> 
> Nonetheless, as others here have indicated, it did seem that the
> questions were biased towards a particular goal, i.e. showing that the
> website or the project's communication methods were not quite there
> yet, or that the project hadn't managed to foster the required
> "community impetus" due to a failure in one or more areas.


The questions were biased not because we wanted people to tell us
something we wanted to hear, but because the survey stems from
discussions where an analysis was drawn, namely, we don't engage users
in our community and we don't talk to them enough. In this sense, it is
biased because the questions were framed around this thinking. But to
take only one example, the answers could have been something like a
majority telling us they don't have the time and another large chunk
telling us they already donated money. And that would not have led to
th

Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: Engaging users: initial results of the survey