subject:"Re\: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2"

05.12.2011, 17:02, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net:
 Am 05.12.2011 08:11, schrieb Misha Shnurapet:

  03.12.2011, 13:48, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com:
   It's not that stuff has merely changed. It's that the stuff has changed,
   major parts of existing functionality were removed without having any
   functional replacements
  There is no arguing that the new GNOME 3 is a significant change.
  But what you had with GNOME 2 was a result of about a decade of development.
  You want the same user experience

 SURELY!

 nobody forced the developers to throw all away and start from scratch
 if they decide to do so the should hol d back their crap until it is
 ready or learn what refactoring is and maintain the existing code

No, they didn't have to keep the code to themselves. That is Open Source, and 
that is how the software is developed and bug reports gathered. 3rd party 
developers have been provided with all the necessary tools and the codebase to 
create what users would further desire. There is no discrimination, neither 
intentionally built obstacles.

And before GNOME 3.0 was released, there had been loads of tech previews, 
presentations, alpha and beta builds, blog posts, screenshots, videos and all 
kinds of other information on the Internet about what the new GNOME 3 was going 
to be. The project source code repository, the mailing lists and the bugzilla 
were functional 24/7. Where have you all been when you saw it was going to hurt 
you?

05.12.2011, 17:32, Pasha R pashar...@gmail.com:
 On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Misha Shnurapet
 shnura...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
   Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget.
  GNOME 3 is much more extensible than any other previous version of GNOME, 
 it is made to receive many kinds of extensions AND IT WILL.

 This looks more like marketing-speech.

Bare facts only.

 I haven't yet seen a single
 extension that is on par in terms of functionality with what I use in
 GNOME2 for years.

Noone has yet written makes you think GNOME 3 isn't capable. Okay.

  04.12.2011, 03:56, Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com:
  And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic video
  cards for visual cruft is not in the cards.
  Old hardware receives the classic user experience in the form of fallback 
 mode. But if you want the exact GNOME 2 with no option to compromise, the 
 attitude you may receive may simply become your payback.

 Marketing speech again. In GNOME 3.0 fallback mode was a joke. In 3.2
 it is really closer to GNOME 2, though.

I assume at least one problem is solved for you.

  04.12.2011, 00:26, Scott Doty sc...@ponzo.net:
   ...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when
   its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_.
  I absolutely undrestand that you like Linus. But don't you forget that 
 Linus is a long time KDE user, and that's a different view on user interface 
 and usability. We love GNOME for being GNOME unless switch DE easily and 
 stop complaining. Knowing that Linus likes to troll both developers and 
 users from time to time, it's funny to see the adherents of ye olde GNOME 
 coming up with the quotes to support their point of view, especially when 
 those are rather positive.

 This is not a matter of like or dislike. I don't know him personally
 to like or dislike him, but he looks like a very sensible person and
 this is what makes his opinions valuable.

The GNOME developers are none the less sensible people. Especially those most 
committed. And if you knew how Linus handles arguements, you'd be used to be 
called names.

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-05 Thread Reindl Harald



Am 05.12.2011 10:56, schrieb Misha Shnurapet:
 SURELY!

 nobody forced the developers to throw all away and start from scratch
 if they decide to do so the should hol d back their crap until it is
 ready or learn what refactoring is and maintain the existing code
 
 No, they didn't have to keep the code to themselves. 

not the code but a release called GA

 That is Open Source, and that is how the software is developed and bug 
 reports gathered. 

well, but if the software is not ready for endusers it should
not released to them as default UI

 3rd party developers have been provided with all the necessary tools and the 
 codebase 
 to create what users would further desire. 

does not help much if you release a software unusable for
your current userbase but hey it supports a tablet

 The project source code repository, the mailing lists and the bugzilla were 
 functional 24/7. Where have you all been when you saw it was going to hurt 
 you?

it does not hurt me because i was never a gnome user but it hurts me to
see that my favourite distribution is packing such a thing as default
desktop without any thoughts at the current user base

and do not come with but gnome2 is still not developed any more
RHEL6/CentOS6 is shipping it for years!




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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

05.12.2011, 19:04, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net:
  Am 05.12.2011 10:56, schrieb Misha Shnurapet:
   That is Open Source, and that is how the software is developed and bug 
 reports gathered.
  well, but if the software is not ready for endusers it should
  not released to them as default UI

Was it not stable enough? They even delayed the planned release to make it 
ready for the end user.

   3rd party developers have been provided with all the necessary tools and 
 the codebase
   to create what users would further desire.
  does not help much if you release a software unusable for
  your current userbase but hey it supports a tablet

I've been using GNOME 3 since 3.0 and I don't even use extensions. I do not 
understand what you mean by unusable. Are you trying to make me think 
everything is so dramatical?

05.12.2011, 19:04, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net:
  it does not hurt me because i was never a gnome user but it hurts me to
  see that my favourite distribution is packing such a thing as default
  desktop without any thoughts at the current user base

You meant to say the community, developers+contributors, the people who like to 
play around. That is Fedora.

And the user base is safe. If you want to be safe, become the user base, use 
the final product. Fedora is only the starting point.

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-05 Thread Alan Cox

 The ignoranti may want a UI with no learning curve, but they're not 
 going to get it.  Even the nipple takes time for an infant to learn how 
 to use.

That's somewhat arrogant and misleading. You assume that people want
exact control of everything they use, whereas most people want detailed
domain knowledge and control of a few things and would prefer the rest
just worked simply without configuration.

Interfaces also differ dramatically in whether the knowledge on how to
use them is internalised (eg the command line) or externalised (many gui
interfaces).

Then there is discoverability, making a user interface something you can
gradually learn and find the extra features in - like hotkeys and
shortcuts. That's one case where Gnome 3.2 panel in fallback fails
horribly - alt right-click  how will anyone logically deduce this and
try it ?

If you've not read it you might find Norman's The Design of Everyday
Things an interesting read.

Alan
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-05 Thread Pasha R

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Misha Shnurapet
shnura...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
 05.12.2011, 17:02, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net:
 Am 05.12.2011 08:11, schrieb Misha Shnurapet:

  03.12.2011, 13:48, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com:
   It's not that stuff has merely changed. It's that the stuff has changed,
   major parts of existing functionality were removed without having any
   functional replacements
  There is no arguing that the new GNOME 3 is a significant change.
  But what you had with GNOME 2 was a result of about a decade of 
 development.
  You want the same user experience

 SURELY!

 nobody forced the developers to throw all away and start from scratch
 if they decide to do so the should hol d back their crap until it is
 ready or learn what refactoring is and maintain the existing code

 No, they didn't have to keep the code to themselves. That is Open Source, and 
 that is how the software is developed and bug reports gathered. 3rd party 
 developers have been provided with all the necessary tools and the codebase 
 to create what users would further desire. There is no discrimination, 
 neither intentionally built obstacles.

 And before GNOME 3.0 was released, there had been loads of tech previews, 
 presentations, alpha and beta builds, blog posts, screenshots, videos and all 
 kinds of other information on the Internet about what the new GNOME 3 was 
 going to be. The project source code repository, the mailing lists and the 
 bugzilla were functional 24/7. Where have you all been when you saw it was 
 going to hurt you?

I was using GNOME 2. You know, there is a tiny group of people called
users, that supposes that in 21st century they may expect OS to be
actually usable even with such distribution as Fedora, without having
to run alphas, betas and previews. Not to mention that even if all
these arguments started even at alpha stage, they would be ignored by
developers just like they are ignored now.

 05.12.2011, 17:32, Pasha R pashar...@gmail.com:
 On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:11 AM, Misha Shnurapet
 shnura...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
   Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget.
  GNOME 3 is much more extensible than any other previous version of GNOME, 
 it is made to receive many kinds of extensions AND IT WILL.

 This looks more like marketing-speech.

 Bare facts only.
If you say so...


 I haven't yet seen a single
 extension that is on par in terms of functionality with what I use in
 GNOME2 for years.

 Noone has yet written makes you think GNOME 3 isn't capable. Okay.
As I said above, I believe expectation from released software to be
useful doesn't look really unreasonable these days. So all these
someone will write something someday looks like poor excuse for me.


  04.12.2011, 03:56, Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com:
  And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic video
  cards for visual cruft is not in the cards.
  Old hardware receives the classic user experience in the form of fallback 
 mode. But if you want the exact GNOME 2 with no option to compromise, the 
 attitude you may receive may simply become your payback.

 Marketing speech again. In GNOME 3.0 fallback mode was a joke. In 3.2
 it is really closer to GNOME 2, though.

 I assume at least one problem is solved for you.
Yes, partially.


  04.12.2011, 00:26, Scott Doty sc...@ponzo.net:
   ...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when
   its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_.
  I absolutely undrestand that you like Linus. But don't you forget that 
 Linus is a long time KDE user, and that's a different view on user 
 interface and usability. We love GNOME for being GNOME unless switch DE 
 easily and stop complaining. Knowing that Linus likes to troll both 
 developers and users from time to time, it's funny to see the adherents of 
 ye olde GNOME coming up with the quotes to support their point of view, 
 especially when those are rather positive.

 This is not a matter of like or dislike. I don't know him personally
 to like or dislike him, but he looks like a very sensible person and
 this is what makes his opinions valuable.

 The GNOME developers are none the less sensible people. Especially those most 
 committed. And if you knew how Linus handles arguements, you'd be used to be 
 called names.

Judging by current Gnome-Shell, I would not call them sensible.
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

Watch this video, it'll help you make the right choice next time.

[1] http://magazine.redhat.com/2008/09/16/video-the-history-of-fedora/

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-05 Thread JB

Alan Cox alan at lxorguk.ukuu.org.uk writes:

 
  The ignoranti may want a UI with no learning curve, but they're not 
  going to get it.  Even the nipple takes time for an infant to learn how 
  to use.
 
 That's somewhat arrogant and misleading. You assume that people want
 exact control of everything they use, whereas most people want detailed
 domain knowledge and control of a few things and would prefer the rest
 just worked simply without configuration.

Sounds like the award-winning GNOME 2 DE :-)
But the ueber-driven KDE fans called it dumbed down ...

 ...
 Then there is discoverability, making a user interface something you can
 gradually learn and find the extra features in - like hotkeys and
 shortcuts. That's one case where Gnome 3.2 panel in fallback fails
 horribly - alt right-click  how will anyone logically deduce this and
 try it ?

Yep, that's the most sensible critique so far in this thread (after mine) -
it almost matches The Linus view of GNOME 3.2 ...

 ...

JB


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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-05 Thread Robert M. Witkop

I have been working with computers and operating system before many on
this list were even a twinkle in their fathers eye. When I was
introduced to Linux (kernel 0.92), it pleased me that I could switch to
a computer I didn't have to build myself. Also, I no longer had to run
ZPM at home, and unix at work.

Although I normally only update on even versions, because I don't mind
change, I like some stability in my work.

I upgraded my hardware about the time that F15 came out, so I decided
that I would install f15 instead of f14. When I found that gnome did not
run out of the box, I had to make a decision, to I want to go through a
learning curve, or do I want to develop systems. 

If I wanted windoz, I would run windoz. 

I am hoping that when I get the time to upgrade my systems to F16, that
the source for the old gnome will compile with it. If not, I will have
to upgrade to one of the simple window system that just let me do my
work.

I know opinions are like a part of our anatomy in that everyone has
on, and I usually keep my opinions to myself, but GNOME3 is so
different from 2 that it should have been forked as a new product, not
put out as a revision.


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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-05 Thread Andrew Haley

On 12/05/2011 09:56 AM, Misha Shnurapet wrote:

 And before GNOME 3.0 was released, there had been loads of tech
 previews, presentations, alpha and beta builds, blog posts,
 screenshots, videos and all kinds of other information on the
 Internet about what the new GNOME 3 was going to be. The project
 source code repository, the mailing lists and the bugzilla were
 functional 24/7. Where have you all been when you saw it was going
 to hurt you?

Ah, it's the *users'* own fault, for not spending enough time reading
the GNOME 3 mailing lists.  How stupid of them.

  People of Earth, your attention, please. This is Prostetnic Vogon
  Jeltz of the Galactic Hyperspace Planning Council. As you will no
  doubt be aware, the plans for development of the outlying regions of
  the Galaxy require the building of a hyperspatial express route
  through your star system. And regrettably, your planet is one of
  those scheduled for demolition. The process will take slightly less
  than two of your Earth minutes. Thank you.

  There’s no point in acting surprised about it. All the planning
  charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local
  planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so
  you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far
  too late to start making a fuss about it now. … What do you mean
  you’ve never been to Alpha Centauri? Oh, for heaven’s sake, mankind,
  it’s only four light years away, you know. I’m sorry, but if you
  can’t be bothered to take an interest in local affairs, that’s your
  own lookout. Energize the demolition beams.

  I don't know, apathetic bloody planet, I've no sympathy at all.

Andrew.


From: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-05 Thread Tim

On Mon, 2011-12-05 at 09:20 -0800, Robert M. Witkop wrote:
 I upgraded my hardware about the time that F15 came out, so I decided
 that I would install f15 instead of f14. When I found that gnome did
 not run out of the box, I had to make a decision, to I want to go
 through a learning curve, or do I want to develop systems. 
  
 If I wanted windoz, I would run windoz. 
 
Years ago, I also used computers long before we'd even heard of Windows.
My own first real personal computer was the Amiga, and that was chosen
after being thoroughly put off by the other personal computers that I'd
had a play with (that others owned).  I liked it for what it was, how it
worked (much better than the alternatives, at the time), and what could
be done with it.  I could look after it quite easily, and there were few
secrets.

A few years later, I faced the no-choice of having to get a PC, to be
able to do stuff in a PC-only world (or the majority of it being that
way, that it might as well be PC-only).  And I got sick of it real
quick.  It was, and still is, a suicidal OS, plagued with problems, and
probably always will be.  Another thing that really pissed me off, about
it, was how much of it was secret.  I got really really sick of the see
your admin error messages.  I was the admin, there was no one to ask.
The built-in help was crap, the manual gave no information about the
issues.  Help on the WWW was far from satisfactory, and even when you
did find an answer that was correct, the solutions were utterly
ludicrous from a computing point of view (the design/philosophy of
Windows is just plain nuts).  And really, the only way to know what
you're doing (if you wanted to make a job out of IT), rather than be
some klutz who might stumble on a few things, was to go on some
expensive training course, again and again.  And, when you look into
what some of these course were about, it was galling.  Networking
training reduced down from knowing about administrating TCP/IP, to
merely learning the crapped out way that Windows does it.  Forget about
learning about DNS, or TCP/IP traffic, or any of that, just learn which
boxes to fill in for this version of Windows.  Then go on another
expensive course when they release a new version.  One of these courses
was little more than what you see in the setting up your network, in the
installation guide for Fedora.  It was that /sparse/ in info.  Fill in
the blanks, don't actually learn about what you're doing.

Then, at long last, Linux came to a point where it was usable as a
personal computer, in the current world.  I dropped Windows in a flash.
Never regretted it.  Enjoyed the lack of secrecy (documentation, things
working in a sensible manner that you could work out the local
implementation, source code if you wanted to peruse it, no hidden files
on your drive from package installations that you can't tell what will
put where), and the return to a sane filing system (non-suicidal filing
system, files stored in sensible places, separation of system's from
application's from user's files).  But over the last few years I keep
seeing one Linux-thing after another going Windows-like (dumb ideas,
cloning Windows, no documentation, go see your admin).  With developers
either copying the worlds worst examples of computing (i.e. Windows),
and not knowing (because they've never used other systems), or not
acknowledging that the Windows way is the horrible way.  Or it's Windows
developers migrating to a different OS (Linux) and just carrying on
doing the same crap, instead of learning how to do thing in a better
way.  I suspect the latter, since it seems to be that it used to be Unix
users going off to Linux, since Unix was expensive but they could afford
to personally use Linux as a similar alternative, so we got a lot of the
Unix mindset (designed by computer boffins).  But now it seems to be
Windows users doing the same thing, migrating from an expensive or
pirated product, to something they can afford to play with, and they're
building stuff (but with all the lack of experience of a teenage hacker,
someone who just cobbles together something that seems to work, but
doesn't integrate well into an established system, and then they mess up
rest of the system to suit their hack, instead of fitting in).


 I know opinions are like a part of our anatomy in that everyone has
 on, and I usually keep my opinions to myself, but GNOME3 is so
 different from 2 that it should have been forked as a new product, not
 put out as a revision.

I tend to agree.  If some of the Gnome developers (or the same applies
to KDE), wanted to go out in a radically different direction, they
should have started their own new project, and left the current one to
those interested in it.

If the old Gnome, or KDE, or whatever, continued or died a natural
death, that would be it.  The current debacle has been a forced
termination.  It virtually precludes some from continuing on with
working on the older desktop, because it's

Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-05 Thread Joe Zeff

On 12/05/2011 04:48 PM, Tim wrote:
 Buying new and expensive hardware every few years, for artificially
 necessary reasons, is the Windows mindset.

The underlying problem is much more fundamental than that.  Often, the 
devs get big, muscular boxes to work on with lots and lots of disk 
space, RAM and video RAM, including the Latest and Greatest Video Cards 
they can find.  This makes development much easier.  They don't, 
however, bother to test their work on anything other than their own 
boxen, meaning that they quite often end up with great software that 
only works on a maxed-out computer with the latest video cards.  And, of 
course, their regular response to anybody who complains about the 
unreasonable and expen$ive hardware requirements is to tell them to 
throw money at the problem because they rarely, if ever, have the 
slightest idea how much their development equipment cost or how hard it 
might be for their users to get together enough cash to upgrade.

This problem would be self-correcting (because people would stay away 
from such resource hogs) if it weren't for companies who are willing to 
pay whatever it takes to upgrade because they think they have to have 
the latest pile of festering dingo poo to come down the pike and kids 
just out of school with more disposable income than common sense who do 
exactly the same thing.

I don't know, of course, if that's part of what happened in the case of 
Gnome 3, but I wouldn't be the slightest bit astonished to learn that it 
was part of what made it turn out the way it did.
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

05.12.2011, 21:06, Andrew Haley a...@redhat.com:
 Ah, it's the *users'* own fault, for not spending enough time reading
 the GNOME 3 mailing lists.  How stupid of them.

It looks like you prioritize knowlege of science fiction comedy over that of 
your company's profile.

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Lars E. Pettersson

On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote:
 Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer
 GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while

If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get 
something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the 
Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden.

Lars
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Lars E. Pettersson

On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote:
 Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer
 GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while

If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get 
something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the 
Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden.

Lars
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Aaron Konstam

On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 10:40 +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
 On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote:
  Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer
  GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while
 
 If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get 
 something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the 
 Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden.

Where does one find System info? I can't find it.

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Alan Cox

O Though, only if you are doing *BASIC* email.  Just try something more
 complicated, and you'll soon find using a midget gadget just isn't going
 to cut the mustard.  Scads of mail, threaded properly, etc.  There just
 isn't the screen real estate, to start with.  Then try writing a long
 email without a keyboard.

I read much of my email these days on my Android phone with K9. I save
the stuff worth replying to and reply locally. It means reading email can
be done in what was otherwise dead times.

For the typical end user with webmail there isn't really much difference
between gmail on a phone and gmail on the web.
 
 Even with devices designed for the businessman to do things like that,
 such as the Blackberry, it's inadequate for the task.  I've sat next to
 them eeking out an email, and anything more than about two sentences is
 a major chore.

You need to watch a 14 year old not a business-drone. The kids learned
this stuff from a young age and their wpm on a phone is scary.

 Then you watch people spinning them around, to read something less
 awkwardly in the other aspect.  Zooming in and panning about to read
 something (and the effect is like trying to read a magazine through a
 keyhole).

Definitely. I do read books on the phone when travelling but they need to
be appropriately formatted and some stuff like magazine type material
simply doesn't work.

 That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and impose a
 tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa.  Yet, that
 see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current
 Gnome debacle).  Change doesn't necessarily mean progress.

Agreed 100%. In fact one of the problems outstanding is how the UI
handles the situation where you do the following

Receive an email on the phone, glance at it, begin replying, realise you
need to look at the attached presentation, flick the phone display onto
your 40 LED 1080p television and carry on working that way.

Simply expanding the existing display and way of working isn't
necessarily the sane way to do it. And it actually goes beyond that,
because if you've got local CPU power you really want your environment to
be a virtual machine that can flip seamlessly onto the bigger processor
connected to the TV.

Alan
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Lars E. Pettersson

On 12/04/2011 03:34 PM, Aaron Konstam wrote:
 Where does one find System info? I can't find it.

Left click on your name in the upper right corner of the screen.
Chose 'Systems Settings'
Chose 'System Info'
Chose 'Graphics'
There you have a toggle for 'Forced Fallback Mode'

To add things to the panels, press and hold Alt, and then right click.

It seem to be quite close to what you get in Gnome2.

Lars
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Mike Chambers

On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 08:34 -0600, Aaron Konstam wrote:
 On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 10:40 +0100, Lars E. Pettersson wrote:
  On 12/03/2011 09:40 AM, JB wrote:
   Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer
   GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while
  
  If you chose the 'Forced Fallback Mode' in 'System info' you will get 
  something that resembles Gnome2 (Gnome3 with metacity). So the 
  Gnome2-like GUI is there, but very well hidden.
 
 Where does one find System info? I can't find it.

Right top corner, click on your username and go to System Settings.
Scroll to the very bottom and should see it under System.


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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Fernando Cassia

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 22:50, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote:
 this is nonsense

 the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone which is 
 permanently online, but this does not mean that all these people are only 
 using a smartphone or tab which will not happen
 not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years

Oh really? think again, think internet-connected TVs running Android
or some other OS.

http://www.geniatech.com/pa/android-tv.asp

He´s right about the declining of relevance of Windows, and by
extension, the windows API at the app level, too.

FC

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Reindl Harald



Am 04.12.2011 19:19, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
 On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 22:50, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote:
 this is nonsense

 the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone which is 
 permanently online, but this does not mean that all these people are only 
 using a smartphone or tab which will not happen
 not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years
 
 Oh really? think again, think internet-connected TVs running Android
 or some other OS.
 
 http://www.geniatech.com/pa/android-tv.asp
 
 He´s right about the declining of relevance of Windows, and by
 extension, the windows API at the app level, too.

did i say anything other?

what did you exactly not understand in the percent does not matter
all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and
powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now

and this is why it is wrong to design defaults only having
smartphones and tabs in mind - ther are people which do much
more with a computer and will ever be which can not be done
with any mobile device because you are missing the needed
performance and interfaces, not speaking from RAID etc.



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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Marko Vojinovic

On Sunday 04 December 2011 19:59:38 Reindl Harald wrote:
 all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and
 powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now
 
 and this is why it is wrong to design defaults only having
 smartphones and tabs in mind - ther are people which do much
 more with a computer and will ever be which can not be done
 with any mobile device because you are missing the needed
 performance and interfaces, not speaking from RAID etc.

Noobs and people who only look at e-mail and surf the web will use Gnome3, 
since it looks the same and works the same as their favorite smartphone. 
Gnome3 provides a desktop for that vast majority of ignorant people who want a 
zero-slope learning curve between the smartphone, TV, computer, car and 
microwave oven.

Meanwhile, workstation powerusers will use KDE, and configure it inside out to 
match their desired workflow. ;-)

And the world will be a happy place once again. :-D

Best, :-)
Marko


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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Joe Zeff

On 12/04/2011 11:26 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
 Gnome3 provides a desktop for that vast majority of ignorant people who want a
 zero-slope learning curve between the smartphone, TV, computer, car and
 microwave oven.

Friday night, I was talking with writer John DeChancie.  He was 
interested in turning one of his paintings into a cover for his latest 
book, and I suggested that he look at Scribus, as it's FOSS and works 
under Windows just as well as Linux.  As it happened, one of the other 
members of the conversation had used the program and said that it was 
very capable, but had a generous learning curve.  I replied, Anything 
worth using has a learning curve.

The ignoranti may want a UI with no learning curve, but they're not 
going to get it.  Even the nipple takes time for an infant to learn how 
to use.
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Fernando Cassia

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 15:59, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote:
 what did you exactly not understand in the percent does not matter
 all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and
 powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now

The percentage DOES matter in terms of GROWTH and MIND SHARE.
Mobile devices and mouse-less, or keyboard-less devices will be where
growth will be, often at a fraction of the cost of a traditional
computer.

In other words,  the ´new´ devices will grow and the traditional pc
environment will eventually stall.

If any OS decides to ´ignore´ this trend it will become a niche
market. An OS that is no longer talked about is often forgotten.
Remember IBM OS/2? It´s still for sale -and somewhat limited
development- under another brand at www.ecomstation.com. Will it grow?
hardly. Will anybody know about it 10 years from now? very unlikely.

That´s the reason why Linux cannot afford to ignore the new devices
and ´morphings´ of the computer to new aread, and why it must offer
UIs designed for these new devices and paradigms.

In fact, I worry that Canonical´s latest get Ubuntu on TVs might be
too late already.

Rest assured, nobody will be taking your XFCE and KDE desktops from
you, if you want to use them on a traditional PC.

But IMHO it´s desirable to see Linux moving into these new grounds.

Just my $0.02
FC
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Joe Zeff

On 12/04/2011 12:05 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
 Rest assured, nobody will be taking your XFCE and KDE desktops from
 you, if you want to use them on a traditional PC.

 But IMHO it´s desirable to see Linux moving into these new grounds.

Exactly.  I have no objection to seeing Linux move into the realm of the 
tablet, the phone and the pocket computer;[1] I think it's a good thing. 
  I don't even object to creating a UI for a desktop that emulates that 
of a tablet, for those who want it.  What I, personally, object to is 
making that emulation the default for a major DE and telling anybody who 
complains that they'll just hafta learn to use it.  I can't speak for 
anybody else (except, in this case, my sister) but my (and her) reaction 
to something like that is to say, No I don't, while walking away from 
whatever it is and finding something else that I like better.

I probably would have at least given Gnome 3 a try if the attitude of 
the devs hadn't been so inflexible.  When they said to the world, in 
effect, My way or the highway, my instant response was to find a 
different DE (XFCE in my case) that allowed me to do things my way 
instead of forcing me to do things the way the devs think the world 
wants to do things.

YMMV, and if you're using Gnome 3 clearly does, which is fine with me.

[1]Jerry Pournelle, who (along with Larry Niven) predicted pocket 
computers in *The Mote In God's Eye,* and *The Gripping Hand,* is 
thrilled to see his prediction come true so soon.
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Reindl Harald



Am 04.12.2011 21:05, schrieb Fernando Cassia:
 On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 15:59, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote:
 what did you exactly not understand in the percent does not matter
 all this counts will not change the fact that workstations and
 powerusers will exist in 10 years as they do now
 
 The percentage DOES matter in terms of GROWTH and MIND SHARE.
 Mobile devices and mouse-less, or keyboard-less devices will be where
 growth will be

you do NOT WANT to understand me

it does not matter in the context we optimize all for the new
devices because a traditional pc is not cool enough

where did i say any word that these devices sgould be ignored
or not supported as good as possible?

but it is dumb to make a desktop DEFAULT which ignores real
computers!

 often at a fraction of the cost of a traditional computer.

laughable, many of this new devices are at the same cost as
a traditional computer if you look at the real price and
not what your mobile providr pays for you

 In other words,  the ´new´ devices will grow and the traditional pc
 environment will eventually stall.

so what

 If any OS decides to ´ignore´ this trend it will become a niche
 market. 

who spoke about ignore them?

make a useable desktop for classical computers where you
can switch to a mobile-view, but do not handle every device
like a mbolie OR YOU BECOME A NICHE

 That´s the reason why Linux cannot afford to ignore the new devices
 and ´morphings´ of the computer to new aread, and why it must offer
 UIs designed for these new devices and paradigms.

did i say anything against this?

the problem is that childish developers forget real devices

 In fact, I worry that Canonical´s latest get Ubuntu on TVs might be
 too late already.

nobody needs a crippled distribution which does not fit well
on a tv and not on a real computer

for such things were and are specialized distributions
much better and there is no need to cripple down desktop
distributions

 Rest assured, nobody will be taking your XFCE and KDE desktops from
 you, if you want to use them on a traditional PC.

hopefully that the other developers will not get infected by
this all for the new coll play-devices



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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Fernando Cassia

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 17:49, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote:
 you do NOT WANT to understand me

YES I DO. ;)

 but it is dumb to make a desktop DEFAULT which ignores real
 computers!

I get your point, you´re complaining about Gnome3 being the default. I
hear you, loud and clear, no need to shoot the messenger if you don´t
like someone´s opinions. :)

All this brouhaha would be moot if Fedora simply detected the kind of
device it´s being installed on and show a screen saying

this looks like** a Tablet device, so we´ll default to a touch-based
interface, OK? [yes-no]

Or This looks like** a Desktop computer, we´ll be defaulting to XFCE.
Are you OK with that? [yes-no]

Or This is a laptop or netbook. Which desktop interface do you
prefer? [a] [b] [c] [d].

So everyone is happy and there´s no ugly desktop forced down anybody´s throat.

FC
PS: While I wrote the above ** I couldn´t help smiling and thinking
about the infamouse Clippy and its it looks like you´re writing a
letter... ;-)

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Joe Zeff

On 12/04/2011 01:42 PM, Fernando Cassia wrote:
 I get your point, you´re complaining about Gnome3 being the default. I
 hear you, loud and clear, no need to shoot the messenger if you don´t
 like someone´s opinions. :)

It looks to me as though he's not so much complaining about Gnome3 being 
the default, as about the way Gnome3 looks to be designed for a tablet 
with just a (very) grudging nod to the fact that most of its users are 
using a desktop or laptop computer that doesn't have a touch screen.
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Tim

Craig White:
 Don't assume that input options remain static or aren't being improved
 upon continually. For example, Ice Cream Sandwich implements continuous
 speech processing including punctuation which represents a real option
 for many.

It's the first thing that springs to mind, as an easy solution.  Until
you watch how businessmen use their gadgets, on the bus, at a cafe on
the street corner, in a meeting...  Voice input has its uses, but lots
of limitations.

  Likewise, there are 'swipe' type input keyboards which with
 some practice, are usable and reasonable for character entry. Don't
 forget that usage of a QWERTY keyboard actual required learning and
 practice and there are still a large amount of users who simply use 1 or
 2 finger input having never learned to touch type anyway.

Haven't heard of swipe keyboards, so I went and had a look.  Argh, gawd,
bringing the fun and games of predictive text to all keyboards.  It's
bad enough trying to decipher what some people try to say in plain
English, never mind when the computer has added further scrambling.

True enough that there's plenty of hunt and peck typists, and some of
them are fast.  At least with a normal keyboard you can use normal
fingers.  With mini keyboards, of any type, you're faced with using a
stick, or trying to get the corner of a fingernail to press the one key
that you want to press, and not four keys at the same time.

But, adding a keyboard to a tablet, is getting back to ye olde desktop
problem.  A box, with this cabled to that, half a dozen times over
(keyboard, mouse, screen, printer, modem...), rat's nests are bad enough
on the desk, but haven't to lug it around and set it up with a portable
devices.  :-(

Not to mention a grudging admission that such things are still
necessary, or vital.



 On screen keyboards are reasonable for the younger generation and
 reasonable for short messaging for most and a plethora of options exist
 for extended usage.

Sure, if you feel like bashing your fingertips into a solid piece of
glass...  And being unable to touch type.  They really are up there with
the rest of the unergonomic designs.

 Touchscreens are all very well for poking at large objects, but not very
 good for fine detail.  While the mouse is hideous, it still tends to be
 the most versatile.

 True - I don't do 'fine' detail on my telephone but 'pinch to zoom'
 allows you to access magnifications where even a fat finger can be like
 a needle in many instances.

I've watched my friend doing that.  Just reading one small webpage, and
then clicking on the bits you needed to click on, involved lots of
zooming in and out, and panning around.  Not at all convenient, nor
quick, and out of the question for people without manual dexterity, or
missing some digits.


 That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and impose a
 tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa.  Yet, that
 see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current
 Gnome debacle).  Change doesn't necessarily mean progress.

 It seems obvious to me that there are 2 schools of thought here and
 yours is shared by a few. The other school seems to think that the
 desktop computer is just one of the various forms of computing and that
 other forms will include small form factors (perhaps like Apple's 3.5
 diagonal iPhone) to relatively small 4-5 to 7-8 and larger.
 
 Perhaps these small form factors will drop into a laptop type shell
 (like the Motorola Atrix), wirelessly connect to keyboard, mouse and
 display when in an home or office environment, etc.

And, continue to use an inappropriate interface, instead of
transforming?  Because the way things are going, it doesn't look
transforming is going to be the way.  With desktop devices getting
portable device interfaces.

I see the value of portable devices, I see the value of being able to
develop for them on a desktop computer.  I do not see that it's good
thing to destroy a good desktop model to force people into using an
inappropriate one on it, just to be consistent.

 Now I don't know how things are progressing in your neck of the woods in
 Australia but in America, the various tablets are jumping off the
 shelves like hotcakes. Coming on the heels of the successes of the
 netbooks indicates that the public wants extremely portable, relatively
 inexpensive computing devices even if it only does e-mail/web browsing
 and it's not just Gnome who have picked up on the fact that the future
 of computing devices is up for grabs. One only need look at the Windows
 8 preview and see their Windows Phone 'tiles' interface as the primary
 UI/launcher to see that they are not alone with a redesign of their UI
 with an eye to all possible form factors.

The trouble is that they (various theys), don't seem to be designing
UIs to fit different form factors.  They're trying to fit one UI onto
all the devices.

Yes, such gadgets are becoming popular, here.  But they're still a
specialist

Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Alan Cox

 [1]Jerry Pournelle, who (along with Larry Niven) predicted pocket 
 computers in *The Mote In God's Eye,* and *The Gripping Hand,* is 
 thrilled to see his prediction come true so soon.

In 1974... the handheld calculator already being with us in 1967 and
Moores law already stated. Star Trek was already waving tricorders around
and tricorders appear to show cloud computing ideas too.

Try 'Feeling of Power' - Asimov 1958 (which also predicts losing the
ability to do maths because of having a pocket calculator). I'm not even
sure it's the first. 

And of course Dynabook was described in 1968 by Alan Kay as a real
research vision. His original design btw was 12 x 9 so large pocket
needed but very much a tablet style although he included a keyboard.

Whats really interesting is what else the Parc work predicted in 1980 as
the result of such devices and the stuff they were playing with then but
unable to do within size and budget due to technology. My favourite quote
from the CC article on it being

Television in particular would be in for trouble - who's going to watch
poor television programs if they can link up with all the other kids on
the block for a game of really super Startrek or Startrader

Didn't quite call Warcraft correctly but not far off 8)

Alan
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Marko Vojinovic

On Sunday 04 December 2011 12:21:44 Joe Zeff wrote:
 On 12/04/2011 11:26 AM, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
  Gnome3 provides a desktop for that vast majority of ignorant people who
  want a zero-slope learning curve between the smartphone, TV, computer,
  car and microwave oven.
 
 Anything
 worth using has a learning curve.
 
 The ignoranti may want a UI with no learning curve, but they're not
 going to get it.  Even the nipple takes time for an infant to learn how
 to use.

I agree with you completely, but the Gnome devs are apparently pushing to 
prove us wrong... :-)

However, as a happy KDE user I don't have to worry about the Gnome devs. Btw, 
you reminded me of that common saying, build a system that even an idiot can 
use, and only idiots will use it, which may give people a bit of perspective 
on the route Gnome is taking... ;-)

Best, :-)
Marko





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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Bill Davidsen

Alan Cox wrote:
 I've been playing with 3.2 a bit today an F16.

[...snip...]

 I still think the biggest mistake was calling it Gnome. It's
 something quite different and they'd have upset a lot less people if
 they'd not tried to pretend it was the same experience as Gnome.

That has to rank among the top ten astute things you have said (in a long 
history of getting to the heart of a problem). If you use the name you get the 
expectations for free. Somewhat like Ford jacking up the Explorer name and 
replacing an SUV with a crossover instead of coining a new name for their AWD 
station wagon.

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Craig White

On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 21:34 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote:
 Craig White wrote:
  On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:37 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
  On 12/03/2011 05:31 AM, Craig White wrote:
  As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's hell to
  see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like
  impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I
  want that toy.
 
  Finally, someone talking sense!
 
  Yes, Gnome 3 is little more than a toy at this point.  But since you've
  previously revealed that you use KDE, you don't realize how much of a
  toy it is.  You have no clue what we are talking about.
  
  you are assuming that I didn't use Gnome 3 for a day after I installed
  F16 but since I didn't much care for Gnome 2, the fact that I didn't
  much care for Gnome 3 seemed logical.
 
 I'm not sure how that follows, KDE is more like GNOME2 than is GNOME3. The 
 GNOME 
 releases are similar only at the acronym level.

I see - in your opinion, software developers are not actually free to
re-imagine what their software is/does or is this particular lack of
inability only extended to Gnome developers?

Craig


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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Bill Davidsen

Joe Zeff wrote:
 On 12/03/2011 02:12 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
 Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices can't run modern PC
 style software. That will change.

 Do you really think that an accountant will ever want to fill out a
 spreadsheet on a tablet, even with a keyboard, if a desktop or laptop's
 available?  I know a number of authors[1][2] and I can't imagine even
 one of them willing to work without a proper keyboard.  For that matter,
 I've completed three novels for NaNoWriMo and have three more stuck at
 about 60K words, and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to do that much
 writing with only an on-screen keyboard.

 [1]Not writers; people who earn their living from their writing.
 [2]Names available on request, as I'm not interested in name dropping
 for its own sake.

I did one book for NaNoWriMo, although the length to complete it was about 
half of what it reached when really done. I built a system just for writing, 
with a big HDTV as monitor so I could have the timeline tool and word processor 
on the screen, and went through three keyboards and two chairs before I got the 
perfect setup. Haven't done one in a few years, last year my wife was dying and 
I was caretaker 7x24, this year I'm about 60k into a book which insisted on 
being written before the one I sat down to write.

There will never be a single right size, portability vs. display size thing, 
and 
as people hit 40 they realize that fonts they *can* read are no longer ones 
they 
*want to* read.

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-04 Thread Misha Shnurapet

03.12.2011, 13:48, Sam Varshavchik mr...@courier-mta.com:
  It's not that stuff has merely changed. It's that the stuff has changed,
  major parts of existing functionality were removed without having any
  functional replacements

There is no arguing that the new GNOME 3 is a significant change. But what you 
had with GNOME 2 was a result of about a decade of development. You want the 
same user experience, the same functionality today while it takes months to 
port all the stuff that you may not even know is to stay in GNOME. I wonder, 
when the GNOME 2 came out, was it something largely accepted.

  and every time someone points this out, they're
  told that they're too stupid to know what's good for them, and this is The
  Better Way.

I think you're exaggerating. Noone from the GNOME project could have actually 
told you that.

  Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget.

GNOME 3 is much more extensible than any other previous version of GNOME, it is 
made to receive many kinds of extensions AND IT WILL.

04.12.2011, 03:56, Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com:
 And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic video
 cards for visual cruft is not in the cards.

Old hardware receives the classic user experience in the form of fallback mode. 
But if you want the exact GNOME 2 with no option to compromise, the attitude 
you may receive may simply become your payback.

04.12.2011, 00:26, Scott Doty sc...@ponzo.net:
  ...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when
  its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_.

I absolutely undrestand that you like Linus. But don't you forget that Linus is 
a long time KDE user, and that's a different view on user interface and 
usability. We love GNOME for being GNOME unless switch DE easily and stop 
complaining. Knowing that Linus likes to troll both developers and users from 
time to time, it's funny to see the adherents of ye olde GNOME coming up with 
the quotes to support their point of view, especially when those are rather 
positive.

04.12.2011, 04:04, Marko Vojinovic vvma...@gmail.com:
  It takes a certain personality profile to be able to
  use Fedora successfully. Most notably the ability to embrace new 
 technologies,
  the ability to put up with occasional rough edges, and the ability to handle
  steep learning curves.

That is, Fedora is the future now.

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread JB

Craig White craigwhite at azapple.com writes:

Man, you brought me back from hibernation again ...

 ... 
 Considering...
 
 - that you can have your beloved Gnome 2 for at least another 5 years on
 RHEL 6 (or various rebuilds thereof),
 

But you do not have a workable GNOME DE in Fedora. This fact introduced a lot
of havoc to real users computing and business environments.
As an example of many, this recent post:
http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/users/2011-December/408873.html

This is how you kill your users base, in particular the precious corporate
one, which is by no means part of sandalistas movement ...

 - that Fedora embraces the latest technology advances and yes, that
 includes Gnome,

There are many people who doubt that. Change for the sake of change ?
I have already explained on this list how parallelized SysV Init/LSB scripts
are equal in speed and superior in their mainainability and other qualities
to systemd.

There is no question that the child of progress GNOME 3 is a basket case,
more than one year after its introduction to Fedora code base.

What advances ?
 
 
 - that approximately 3 years is considered a generation in terms of
 computer technology which includes everything from hardware to end user
 interfaces,

I think you should stick to your toys and sandbox ...

This is a pseudo-progress gimmicky statement usually introduced by market and
technological newcomers, and the parasitic IT and accounting consultancies,
who benefit from that excessive pseudo-reengineering crap.

Let me give you an example so you can educate yourself.
IBM was and is a mainframe powerhouse. In the mid 90's was forced into
reinventing itself by some emerging technologies (Internet, etc). After DEC
and some others gave up, even one of the main shareholders of IBM admitted
they feared the end as well. Real or unreal fear ?

Now, you know what they did ? They hired a relatively obscure CEO who
understood customers/users base (being himself one of them).
He listened to their needs !
He reorganized IBM around services, added some products that would supplement
their software offerings, and ... basically stuck to IBMs guns, that is their
mainframes.
He assumed, quite correctly, that in the age of proliferating IT and Internet
there will be a lot of already present and future data to be managed and
processed in the backends of data centers.
He did not kill the company or its products, he supplemented and reorganized.
They are still a mainframe powerhowse, even more than in the past.

I call it back to the future for IBM.
Do you understand progress now ?

 
 - that regardless of you feelings of Gnome 3, there are people who
 actually like it,

Yes, you and some other clueless twitters.

 
 - that a significant portion of the Gnome code base had aged and needed
 to be re-written was not merely 'Change for the sake of change',

Yes, this is true, code needs rewriting and refactoring, sometimes even
redesigning.
Even with a total rewrite of GNOME code base, they could choose to offer
GNOME2-like GUI on top of it as a still *default* DE in Fedora, while
preparing a spin with GNOME 3 where it would be developed and tested for
a different class of devices, in anticipation of new technologies and user
needs/habits.
When it was proposed on this list, some anonimous joker told us Rejected !.
So much for wisdom of sandalistas.
Remember, on or off salons, a sandalista is a sandalista is a sandalista ...

So, the primary reason GNOME devs and their handlers dropped GNOME 2 was their
desire to introduce new GUI for the supposed wave of the future (smart
things, which are actually pretty dumb and limiting to their users; and
somewhat more smart netbooks, preferably with that powerhouse joke called
Atom chip from Intel).

By doing that they made themselves a laughing stock of DEs (in particular GUI
space) and screwed up their current user base.

That user base (technical and non-technical) started to run away from RH and
Fedora (see the stats I presented to you here) already in anticipation of
future progress (GNOME 3, systemd, SELinux, etc).
You got a bill for your advances and progress.
Now deal with it.

 
 - you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks about
 Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion,
 
 your whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list
 before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different
 name?
 
 Craig
 

You are a clueless troll. Educate yourself.
JB


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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Reindl Harald



Am 03.12.2011 03:21, schrieb Christopher A. Williams:
 PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be greatly
 impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the
 sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well
 in this coming wave...

so this funny gui-designers should realize that it is idiotic to
try making the standard-interface touchscreen-optimized and
somehow you can use it with keyboard and mouse

there needs to be a option or detection if the UI is running
on a mobile device or om a classic desktop

on a classic desktop it MUST NOT waste space with large buttons
which you can hit with an arrow from the neighbours windows!



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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Reindl Harald



Am 03.12.2011 06:02, schrieb Craig White:
 - that a significant portion of the Gnome code base had aged and needed
 to be re-written was not merely 'Change for the sake of change',

good developers knowing the word refactoring
while you do refactoring the behavior MUST NOT change

bad developers are throwing all away, starting from scratch, getting
frustrated after a while because they recognize how much work would
it be to write all the existing things again - and so they decide
to decalre that all what they could not implement in der new big thing
is not needed and all is perfect as it is now - and sadly they seem
to believe what they try to sell the users

i know that now the next comes out and says but they are getting not paid
well - and if i make things not for the money i normally would not loved
to called a moron by the majority of users and if i do not want this
i have to act in a way that does not spit users in their face



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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 08:40 +, JB wrote:
 Craig White craigwhite at azapple.com writes:
 
 Man, you brought me back from hibernation again ...

was not my intention to do so... take responsibility for your own
actions rather than blame others

 That user base (technical and non-technical) started to run away from RH and
 Fedora (see the stats I presented to you here) already in anticipation of
 future progress (GNOME 3, systemd, SELinux, etc).
 You got a bill for your advances and progress.
 Now deal with it.

SELinux is quite good actually. Systemd, I have had little reason to
interact with it so far and I expect that when I do, I will curse for
having to learn new tricks but eventually figure out that there's wisdom
here. Been using Ubuntu for 8 months now, still unclear of some of the
upstart logic but it's obvious that the SysV stuff was tired.

  
  - you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks about
  Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion,
  
  your whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list
  before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different
  name?
  
  Craig
  
 
 You are a clueless troll. Educate yourself.

Sorry to see that you have degenerated to making this so personal but
hey, if that's what comprises effective argumentation for you, then go
for it.

The last visit we had on this topic pretty much concluded that Fedora's
embrace of latest technologies didn't exactly mesh with your
expectations and I remarked that you should probably find a distribution
that does.

Craig



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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 21:29 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
 On 12/02/2011 09:02 PM, Craig White wrote:
  - you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks
  about Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion, your
  whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list
  before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different
  name? Craig 
 
 This is ludicrous.
 
 Pally, your blathering flamebait regarding Linus' opinion was unwanted,
 unwelcome, and illustrative of the kind of thinking that idolizes shiny
 things, without ever having to do real work on a computer.
 
 I've personally been using Linux since 1992, Redhat since the
 Halloween release up until FC1 began, and every release of FC/F up
 until today -- not that that matters one iota, except to point out just
 how much you've messed up, Son.
 
 Old timers will note that I have attacked nothing but your arguments --
 and if that reflects poorly on the arguer, that's for you to figure out.
 
 Meanwhile, everybody sees what you just did -- and those with critical
 thinking skills can see, plainly, the logical fallacies that you are
 clearly unaware of having uttered.  That, too, is your problem -- all
 because you posted your flame bait.
 
 Hell, isn't it?

I get the impression that you're suggesting that I lack critical
thinking skills but you have them. Ignoring the sheer arrogance of that
thinking for the moment, let me just point out that Gnome 2 is dead and
won't be coming to another Fedora release ever - little critical
thinking needs to be done to understand that.

As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's hell to
see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like
impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I
want that toy.

The real flamebait here was Ed's original post in the thread about your
beloved Linus embracing Gnome 3 - his earlier dis or his current embrace
of Gnome 3 really doesn't matter... Gnome 2 is dead save for any
reasonable efforts to fork it (which I doubt will ever occur).

Craig



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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Scott Doty

On 12/03/2011 05:14 AM, Craig White wrote:
   The last visit we had on this topic pretty much concluded that 
 Fedora's embrace of latest technologies didn't exactly mesh with your 
 expectations and I remarked that you should probably find a 
 distribution that does. Craig 

Love it or leave it.

Fortunately for us -- and not so fortunately for you -- Fedora is a 
community Linux distribution.

It is not a Craig White Linux distribution.

...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when 
its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_.

  -Scott

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:26 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
 On 12/03/2011 05:14 AM, Craig White wrote:
The last visit we had on this topic pretty much concluded that 
  Fedora's embrace of latest technologies didn't exactly mesh with your 
  expectations and I remarked that you should probably find a 
  distribution that does. Craig 
 
 Love it or leave it.
 
 Fortunately for us -- and not so fortunately for you -- Fedora is a 
 community Linux distribution.
 
 It is not a Craig White Linux distribution.
 
 ...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when 
 its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_.

I don't recall ever professing to have any influence on the choices that
Fedora developers make nor do I ever use the users list as a soap box
for my thoughts on the matter. I am content to live with their decisions
and make the best of whatever short term issues arise and do bugzilla
reports when something fails to meet my expectations.

As for my opinion of Linus Torvalds - I don't think I have much of an
opinion since I have never met him, don't follow him on any social
networking forum, don't read his blogs and am of the belief that he
isn't using Fedora these days so I completely fail to see the purpose of
your above commentary except to provoke more irrelevance.

Yes, Fedora is a community based distribution - probably more so than
Ubuntu (see SABDFL) and you can have actual input into the decision
making process simply by getting involved. Of course that means doing
packaging or getting on the board of directors or clearly making efforts
beyond commenting from the peanut gallery.

As for love it or leave it - I suppose that is everyone's prerogative.
I am using Ubuntu on servers these days (as opposed to RHEL /or CentOS
/or SL /or Oracle 'unbreakable' so seemingly moving to another distro
for my desktop is always an option... one that I considered before I did
a clean install of F16 last week. I use a Ubuntu desktop (via FreeNX) at
my work and I could easily use it instead of Fedora and it hardly
matters - so yes, 'love it or leave it' is clearly everyone's
prerogative.

Craig


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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

 very convincing and well-grounded in facts. The *majority* of Internet
 connected devices will definitely be in the smartphone and tablet
 category in the next 3 years. That does not mean they will be the *only*

That's very questionable. The majority of internet connected devices
*with a user interface* probably - and at the current takeup almost
entirely phones. How much of a shift this really is you can debate for
hours given that the phone/tablet/pc divide is IMHO essentially an
artificial construction caused by current hardware limits.

We don't ask is that a phone or a watch any more. We don't ask Do you
have a PDA and a phone any more. In a few years time it won't make sense
to ask do you have a tablet and a PC. To me the more interesting
question is how you ensure when you get home and stick your system on the
charger that it backs up, switches to the fast processor on the base
unit, fires up the monitors and speakers and does so seamlessly, ditto
when you take it away, ditto when it's put into the car, ...

 The fact of the matter is we are already seeing this happen. Smartphones
 are starting to displace even desktop computers in low income families
 because they are cheaper (as in $200 range), constantly connected, and
 do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.)

Actually if you look at pricing a second hand PC is cheaper at the base
level. However it's hard to maintain like all PC systems, it needs
technical poking now and then while Android has pretty much (not quite)
succeeded in being a 'just works' environment along with a 'can reset and
get it back' model.

One of the most convincing marketing explanations I heard for all of this
is that the end user PC market is finally segmenting more. It's splitting
more and more clearly into groups like

- I don't type a lot, I don't care and if my phone does it with the least
  hassle I'm sorted

- I need a keyboard but otherwise don't care (traditional low end PC)

- 'Power' users - technical folks, extreme gamers

- My computer is a style statement

 that were once solely the domain of PCs. Tablets are quickly displacing
 laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more

I don't know where you got that from, but worldwide tablet sales hardly
back that up.

There is one point that is being missed though, critical to the whole
argument. Try using Fedora 15 / Gnome 3 on a touchscreen - its absolutely
unusable because of things like the window resizing behaviour.

Alan
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Bill Davidsen

Alan Cox wrote:
[...snip...]

 that were once solely the domain of PCs. Tablets are quickly displacing
 laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more

 I don't know where you got that from, but worldwide tablet sales hardly
 back that up.

 There is one point that is being missed though, critical to the whole
 argument. Try using Fedora 15 / Gnome 3 on a touchscreen - its absolutely
 unusable because of things like the window resizing behaviour.

I think the tablet is a valuable tool, but it doesn't exist in the same space 
as 
a PC. If the imput limitations are not an issues, and many people are just 
consumers on content, then a tablet will serve. If portability is an issue, and 
ease of use without a mouse matters, the tablet is a better choice,. no PC 
needed.

I'm planning to buy the new Eee Transformer, it provides the benefits of both, 
and the means to use whichever configuration suits. A tablet for walking 
around, 
and a real keyboard and better resolution mouse when doing typing tasks. It 
will 
not replace a big PC for major word processing, unless it has a lot better 
keyboard feel and CPU power than I expect, but for a few days on the road it 
serves just fine.

I think the car paradigm works, the specialized units are so much better than 
the general purpose units that there is a market for all of them, big, little, 
cheap, expen$ive, sexy, etc.Sports cars and Fiat 500 as well as pickup trucks.


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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Scott Doty

On 12/03/2011 05:31 AM, Craig White wrote:
 As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's hell to 
 see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like 
 impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I 
 want that toy.

Finally, someone talking sense!

Yes, Gnome 3 is little more than a toy at this point.  But since you've 
previously revealed that you use KDE, you don't realize how much of a 
toy it is.  You have no clue what we are talking about.

In another message, you expressed the idea that we should (paraphrased) 
love it or leave it.  But since you've previously revealed that you 
are an Ubuntu user, you have no clue what we are talking about.

If you want to have your ideas respected, I suggest you come up with 
respectable ideas.  Stop using Fedora is not one of them.  Linus' 
opinion doesn't matter is not one of them.

And so forth c,

   -Scott

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Joe Zeff

On 12/03/2011 02:20 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
 bad developers are throwing all away, starting from scratch, getting
 frustrated after a while because they recognize how much work would
 it be to write all the existing things again

In the case of Gnome 3, I get the impression that they threw out the 
baby *instead of* the bath water.
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Bill Davidsen

Craig White wrote:
 On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:26 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:

 On 12/03/2011 05:14 AM, Craig White wrote:
  
The last visit we had on this topic pretty much concluded that
 Fedora's embrace of latest technologies didn't exactly mesh with your
 expectations and I remarked that you should probably find a
 distribution that does. Craig

 Love it or leave it.

 Fortunately for us -- and not so fortunately for you -- Fedora is a
 community Linux distribution.

 It is not a Craig White Linux distribution.

 ...and I daresay any such _Linux_ distribution won't go very far, when
 its fearless leader has such a low opinion of _Linus_.
  
 
 I don't recall ever professing to have any influence on the choices that
 Fedora developers make nor do I ever use the users list as a soap box
 for my thoughts on the matter. I am content to live with their decisions
 and make the best of whatever short term issues arise and do bugzilla
 reports when something fails to meet my expectations.


Your memory is failing too.

On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 21:29 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:

I get the impression that you're suggesting that I lack critical
thinking skills but you have them. Ignoring the sheer arrogance of that
thinking for the moment, let me just point out that Gnome 2 is dead and
won't be coming to another Fedora release ever - little critical
thinking needs to be done to understand that.
   

Given that adoption of the GNOME2 fork from MINT has been discussed 
here, it
would seem that you sure as hell SOUNDS like you are professing 
influence on
Fedora content, It sounds as if you, single handedly, can prevent 
inclusion.
Or do your critical thinking skills mean only critical of others?

Anyway, therer is a credible port, you also said:

Gnome 2 is dead save for any
reasonable efforts to fork it (which I doubt will ever occur).
   


Before you claim that I take that sentence out of context, it was part 
of a paragraph about
flame-bait, and was out of context already.

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the machinations of the wicked.  - from Slashdot

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Marko Vojinovic

On Saturday 03 December 2011 07:37:21 Scott Doty wrote:
 If you want to have your ideas respected, I suggest you come up with
 respectable ideas.  Stop using Fedora is not one of them.  Linus'
 opinion doesn't matter is not one of them.

Respect on this list is obtained by providing high-quality advice to people 
who ask for it. Craig is a long-term participant on this list, and does hold a 
certain amount of respect in the eyes of other people here. OTOH, I don't 
remember you giving any advice to anyone here, up until this thread started.

The stop using Fedora is in fact a very useful advice --- if Fedora does not 
meet your needs, you have absolute freedom to try out and migrate to some 
other distro that does. Fedora is not for everyone, and I don't always 
recommend it to everyone. It takes a certain personality profile to be able to 
use Fedora successfully. Most notably the ability to embrace new technologies, 
the ability to put up with occasional rough edges, and the ability to handle 
steep learning curves.

If you don't have these abilities, then Fedora is probably not the right 
choice for you. If I were you, I would give Craig's advice more serious 
consideration.

HTH :-)
Marko


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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Bill Davidsen

Craig White wrote:
 On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
 On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
 Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
 a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
 those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
 actually matters.

 So this is what I hear you saying.

 Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer.  Thus, his opinion
 does not matter.
 Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user.  Thus, the
 opinions of end users don't matter.
 
 I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
 the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).

 You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
 you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
 users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
 progress.

Change for the sake of being different is not progress, it's marketing. 
Changing 
the way things work to break the old tools so people will ue YOUR tools instead 
the 3rd party stuff is how MSFT got big, it is less appealing in open source, 
where ours is better and yours doesn't work any more sounds a lot like ego 
trip.

The computer should work the way the users want it to work, not the other way 
around. And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic 
video 
cards for visual cruft is not in the cards.


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the machinations of the wicked.  - from Slashdot
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

 I think the tablet is a valuable tool, but it doesn't exist in the same space 
 as 
 a PC.

Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices can't run modern PC
style software. That will change.
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread mike cloaked

On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 6:56 PM, Bill Davidsen david...@tmr.com wrote:

 Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer.  Thus, his opinion
 does not matter.
 Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user.  Thus, the
 opinions of end users don't matter.
 
 I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
 the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).

 You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
 you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
 users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
 progress.

 Change for the sake of being different is not progress, it's marketing. 
 Changing
 the way things work to break the old tools so people will ue YOUR tools 
 instead
 the 3rd party stuff is how MSFT got big, it is less appealing in open source,
 where ours is better and yours doesn't work any more sounds a lot like ego 
 trip.

 The computer should work the way the users want it to work, not the other way
 around. And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic 
 video
 cards for visual cruft is not in the cards.

I have been watching this thread with interest - I went through the
tinkering process with gnome3 and also with KDE - I abandonned gnome3
as it did not suit me - I tried KDE 4.0 when it first was released but
did not like it at that time. Then I stuck with KDE3.7.3 at f16
release for a while - after a couple of weeks I started to feel that
was not for me either and had some stability issues which remain as of
my last test a couple of days ago - then I tried xfce - and very
quickly found that it did everything I wanted from a DE, both speedily
and efficiently as well as with stability. Yes I had to learn the
tweaks, and which additional packages were needed to be installed to
make the optimisations I wanted possible (for all three desktop
environments) but in the end I had a choice which I was happy with. I
have not tried lxde but I know others like that DE also. There are
some things that are still buggy in all three but my own DE happiness
just happened to come with xfce on the three machines that I am now
running it on.

I guess all the DEs available will evolve in time but at least we all
have a choice and although each DE will vary in popularity every
individual should find one of them to be mostly to their taste?  I do
think that long running arguments that are largely critical of one or
other DE giving significant negative feedback to those who write the
code don't provide the kind of feedback that would lead to developers
being encouraged to become enthusiastic about moving forward, but
positive requests for enhancement might have a better chance of
finding a receptive ear - it would be interesting to hear the views of
developers directly though.

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Ian Malone

On 3 December 2011 13:31, Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote:


 see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like
 impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I
 want that toy.

 The real flamebait here was Ed's original post in the thread about your
 beloved Linus embracing Gnome 3 - his earlier dis or his current embrace

Bit low maybe to talk about childish behaviour before immediately
going on to 'your beloved Linus'?

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Joe Zeff

On 12/03/2011 02:12 PM, Alan Cox wrote:
 Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices can't run modern PC
 style software. That will change.

Do you really think that an accountant will ever want to fill out a 
spreadsheet on a tablet, even with a keyboard, if a desktop or laptop's 
available?  I know a number of authors[1][2] and I can't imagine even 
one of them willing to work without a proper keyboard.  For that matter, 
I've completed three novels for NaNoWriMo and have three more stuck at 
about 60K words, and I certainly wouldn't have wanted to do that much 
writing with only an on-screen keyboard.

[1]Not writers; people who earn their living from their writing.
[2]Names available on request, as I'm not interested in name dropping 
for its own sake.
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread mike cloaked

On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 10:24 PM, mike cloaked mike.cloa...@gmail.com wrote:


 Change for the sake of being different is not progress, it's marketing. 
 Changing
 the way things work to break the old tools so people will ue YOUR tools 
 instead
 the 3rd party stuff is how MSFT got big, it is less appealing in open source,
 where ours is better and yours doesn't work any more sounds a lot like 
 ego trip.

 The computer should work the way the users want it to work, not the other way
 around. And scrapping all your old computers because they don't have magic 
 video
 cards for visual cruft is not in the cards.

 I have been watching this thread with interest - I went through the
 tinkering process with gnome3 and also with KDE - I abandonned gnome3
 as it did not suit me - I tried KDE 4.0 when it first was released but
 did not like it at that time. Then I stuck with KDE3.7.3 at f16
 release for a while - after a couple of weeks I started to feel that
 was not for me either and had some stability issues which remain as of
 my last test a couple of days ago - then I tried xfce - and very
 quickly found that it did everything I wanted from a DE, both speedily
 and efficiently as well as with stability. Yes I had to learn the
 tweaks, and which additional packages were needed to be installed to
 make the optimisations I wanted possible (for all three desktop
 environments) but in the end I had a choice which I was happy with. I
 have not tried lxde but I know others like that DE also. There are
 some things that are still buggy in all three but my own DE happiness
 just happened to come with xfce on the three machines that I am now
 running it on.

 I guess all the DEs available will evolve in time but at least we all
 have a choice and although each DE will vary in popularity every
 individual should find one of them to be mostly to their taste?  I do
 think that long running arguments that are largely critical of one or
 other DE giving significant negative feedback to those who write the
 code don't provide the kind of feedback that would lead to developers
 being encouraged to become enthusiastic about moving forward, but
 positive requests for enhancement might have a better chance of
 finding a receptive ear - it would be interesting to hear the views of
 developers directly though.

One comment that I could make about gnome3.2 in f16 which was a real
clincher for me was that the alacarte package remains broken in f16 -
which is needed to do simple edits to the menus  yes I found
alternatives to make new .desktop files for launching scripts that
were not part of the available package sets so that my own launchers
could be put into the dash (or dock extension), but that item was the
final straw for me for gnome3 apart from some of the other things that
I found worked better for me with the other two desktops I mentioned
in my previous post.  I know that is a negative comment - and indeed
the bugzilla report that relates to the alacarte package remains (at
least as of last night) unresolved. However it would still be better
to pursue pushing for positive change through the bug reporting system
since that is where the developers certainly will be much more likely
to read input than here?


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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

  Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices can't run modern PC
  style software. That will change.
 
 Do you really think that an accountant will ever want to fill out a 
 spreadsheet on a tablet, even with a keyboard, if a desktop or laptop's 
 available?  I know a number of authors[1][2] and I can't imagine even

Do you think an accountant will want to muck about copying things
between devices when his tablet just picks up the local bluetooth
keyboard and wireless display when he walks into the room, and still
works as a tablet with his customer ?

Alan
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

I've been playing with 3.2 a bit today an F16.

The F16 installer is a trainwreck - crashes if an old disk has a partial
raid array on it, then crashes when you try and report the crash. Try
again and it decides my install options contain a conflict, go back to
fix it and it hangs. It eats 750MB of memory yet it *still* can't even
manage to do basic 'Guess my location/locale' stuff using geolocation
tools.

The desktop is looking rather better than before. The dock and some of
the extensions actually turn it roughly back into a desktop and the
transitions and planning for the most part are smooth. Some of the most
annoying bits of behaviour seem to have been tidied up. Yet to try it on
a big display however. A big display really really needs things like
application menus on the backdrop right click to avoid all the mouse
waving in Gnome 3 (and indeed Gnome 2 defaults).

It's a pity they are still desperately trying to hide the extensions in
the default install. Granted some of them don't work, they conflict with
each other and the design is far inferior to the Gnome 2 applets but it's
heading the right way, and some of the other style and design work is
certainly better than Gnome 2. The Gnome extensions web site is also
designed to help this process - but I suspect because they way all the
extensions seem to fight each other it'll be a rough ride initially.

Performance seems a bit better but it ought to be given it's running
off SSD.

I still think the biggest mistake was calling it Gnome. It's
something quite different and they'd have upset a lot less people if
they'd not tried to pretend it was the same experience as Gnome.

Alan
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Reindl Harald



Am 03.12.2011 23:58, schrieb Alan Cox:
 Currently - but that's because low end tablet devices can't run modern PC
 style software. That will change.

 Do you really think that an accountant will ever want to fill out a 
 spreadsheet on a tablet, even with a keyboard, if a desktop or laptop's 
 available?  I know a number of authors[1][2] and I can't imagine even
 
 Do you think an accountant will want to muck about copying things
 between devices when his tablet just picks up the local bluetooth
 keyboard and wireless display when he walks into the room, and still
 works as a tablet with his customer ?
 
 Alan

sometimes this whole discussions feels like i am the only one who
is using development-tools, a desktop machine for virtual-machines
used as wlan access point, router, audio-server and so much other
this you can NEVER achieve on a tablet

short time ago linux was for power-users and windows a game loader
do they people all think power-users are dying and liux should be
a replacement for windows instead a independet, customizeable system
for real performance and much more a 08/15 user will use?

if this is the truth i fear i am too young with 34 years to die before
this crap will be introduced everywhere and all peopole who are really
using there computers are to few to get supported

glory brand new wolrd :-(



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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Scott Doty

On 12/03/2011 02:31 PM, mike cloaked wrote:
 However it would still be better to pursue pushing for positive change 
 through the bug reporting system since that is where the developers 
 certainly will be much more likely to read input than here? 

Agreed, as well as joining the Gnome usability list.

I've been lurking on the list much of late, but I will be damned if I 
have to sit here and watch some snot-nosed CS101 punk dis' Linus.

Gnome developers, on the other hand...well, I would say they have it 
coming to them, but I think that would be incorrect:  the problem was a 
lack of communication, a lack of feedback on big changes.

I'm not the only one caught off-guard by the changes in Gnome 3 -- nor 
do I have to like the game of gotcha people played when I first 
brought it up.  Alas, I haven't had anywhere near the time to put into 
supporting change that I'd like.  (Maybe this will be the impetus that 
lights a fire under my tail end.)

  -Scott

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 14:13 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote:
 Gnome 2 is dead save for any
 reasonable efforts to fork it (which I doubt will ever occur).

 
 
 Before you claim that I take that sentence out of context, it was
 part 
 of a paragraph about
 flame-bait, and was out of context already.
 

there's an awful lot of work in maintaining the entire Gnome 2 desktop
and blending it into an OS that doesn't break other things and actually
maintain it over time but if it appeals to you (Mint), then you should
go for it.

Craig


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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 13:48 -0500, Bill Davidsen wrote:
 Alan Cox wrote:
   [...snip...]
 
  that were once solely the domain of PCs. Tablets are quickly displacing
  laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more
 
  I don't know where you got that from, but worldwide tablet sales hardly
  back that up.
 
  There is one point that is being missed though, critical to the whole
  argument. Try using Fedora 15 / Gnome 3 on a touchscreen - its absolutely
  unusable because of things like the window resizing behaviour.
 
 I think the tablet is a valuable tool, but it doesn't exist in the same space 
 as 
 a PC. If the imput limitations are not an issues, and many people are just 
 consumers on content, then a tablet will serve. If portability is an issue, 
 and 
 ease of use without a mouse matters, the tablet is a better choice,. no PC 
 needed.

as you some allude to in your next quoted paragraph, tablets are not an
either / or proposition but rather an alternative and thus, usuable for
80-90% of typical computer uses.

 I'm planning to buy the new Eee Transformer, it provides the benefits of 
 both, 
 and the means to use whichever configuration suits. A tablet for walking 
 around, 
 and a real keyboard and better resolution mouse when doing typing tasks. It 
 will 
 not replace a big PC for major word processing, unless it has a lot better 
 keyboard feel and CPU power than I expect, but for a few days on the road it 
 serves just fine.

Evidently the Transformer Prime pre-orders have greatly stripped Asus's
ability to deliver in the near term. Good choice - good luck getting
one.

Craig


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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Aaron Konstam

On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 19:04 +, Marko Vojinovic wrote:
 On Saturday 03 December 2011 07:37:21 Scott Doty wrote:
  If you want to have your ideas respected, I suggest you come up with
  respectable ideas.  Stop using Fedora is not one of them.  Linus'
  opinion doesn't matter is not one of them.
 
 Respect on this list is obtained by providing high-quality advice to people 
 who ask for it. Craig is a long-term participant on this list, and does hold 
 a 
 certain amount of respect in the eyes of other people here. OTOH, I don't 
 remember you giving any advice to anyone here, up until this thread started.
 
 The stop using Fedora is in fact a very useful advice --- if Fedora does 
 not 
 meet your needs, you have absolute freedom to try out and migrate to some 
 other distro that does. Fedora is not for everyone, and I don't always 
 recommend it to everyone. It takes a certain personality profile to be able 
 to 
 use Fedora successfully. Most notably the ability to embrace new 
 technologies, 
 the ability to put up with occasional rough edges, and the ability to handle 
 steep learning curves.
 
 If you don't have these abilities, then Fedora is probably not the right 
 choice for you. If I were you, I would give Craig's advice more serious 
 consideration.
 
 HTH :-)
 Marko
 
 

To some Fedora 3 is a new technology , to others it is a road to
madness. But one can hardly completely blame Fedora. It is the creation
the Gnome developers who are what some of us think is the wrong track as
Linus thinks it is.
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 07:37 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
 On 12/03/2011 05:31 AM, Craig White wrote:
  As for the hell you imply that I might be feeling - sure. It's hell to 
  see what undoubtedly passes for adults in other arena's acting like 
  impudent children stammering and jumping up and down and shouting... I 
  want that toy.
 
 Finally, someone talking sense!
 
 Yes, Gnome 3 is little more than a toy at this point.  But since you've 
 previously revealed that you use KDE, you don't realize how much of a 
 toy it is.  You have no clue what we are talking about.

you are assuming that I didn't use Gnome 3 for a day after I installed
F16 but since I didn't much care for Gnome 2, the fact that I didn't
much care for Gnome 3 seemed logical.

There is the philosophy of 'release early and often', for many reasons
including getting more eyeballs on the code base, bug reports, bug
fixes, etc. Perhaps you are familiar with this one because it has been a
driving force behind Open Source software. This means that there are
times when there is some pain to be experience until things mature. This
seems to particularly evident on a DE because not all the parts and
pieces are in place for quite some time - as it was with KDE 4, so it
was with Gnome 3. Get over it. If you're not impressed with Gnome 3,
choose a different DE or use a different distro that is hanging onto
Gnome 2 for some time. Seems to me that you have more productive choices
than to somewhat pointlessly bitch and moan to a users list.

 In another message, you expressed the idea that we should (paraphrased) 
 love it or leave it.  But since you've previously revealed that you 
 are an Ubuntu user, you have no clue what we are talking about.

not sure what one has to do with the other but apparently you missed the
point of the 'love it or leave it' designation came from you and I tried
to sign on to your assertion as best I could.

 
 If you want to have your ideas respected, I suggest you come up with 
 respectable ideas.  Stop using Fedora is not one of them.  Linus' 
 opinion doesn't matter is not one of them.

I don't recall ever expressing a desire to have my ideas respected -
clearly some will and some won't and I am more than willing to live with
that outcome as I don't actually expect everyone to agree with me.

I don't recall ever suggesting anyone to 'Stop using Fedora' but rather
would encourage everyone to evaluate whether Fedora is the right
distribution for their needs. If you want to make some leap into it
meaning anything more than that - take responsibility for your own leap.

Now that Linus has done both a dis and an embrace of Gnome 3 - are you
asserting that his opinion matters in terms of Gnome 3 implementation on
Fedora? Feel free to elaborate.

Craig



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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

 sometimes this whole discussions feels like i am the only one who
 is using development-tools, a desktop machine for virtual-machines
 used as wlan access point, router, audio-server and so much other
 this you can NEVER achieve on a tablet

*current* tablet. Half of that you couldn't do on a PC ten years ago !
 
 short time ago linux was for power-users and windows a game loader
 do they people all think power-users are dying and liux should be
 a replacement for windows 

On the contrary I think the tablet of today is todays Palmpilot. A
constrained platform used (very cleverly in some cases) to provide a very
useful subset of facilities.

However the technology is moving on all the time. I have an 8GB microSD
card here. When I was a university student the university was proud of
its massive total 6GB of disk storage.

Alan
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Tim

On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 19:21 -0700, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
 Smartphones are starting to displace even desktop computers and
 do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.)
 that were once solely the domain of PCs.

Though, only if you are doing *BASIC* email.  Just try something more
complicated, and you'll soon find using a midget gadget just isn't going
to cut the mustard.  Scads of mail, threaded properly, etc.  There just
isn't the screen real estate, to start with.  Then try writing a long
email without a keyboard.

Even with devices designed for the businessman to do things like that,
such as the Blackberry, it's inadequate for the task.  I've sat next to
them eeking out an email, and anything more than about two sentences is
a major chore.

Then you watch people spinning them around, to read something less
awkwardly in the other aspect.  Zooming in and panning about to read
something (and the effect is like trying to read a magazine through a
keyhole).

 Tablets are quickly displacing laptops in the business world. The main
 barrier is that they are more difficult to use for producing
 information than PCs at the moment. They are equally as good for those
 who are primarily consumers of information. Once tablet manufacturers
 actually decide to deal with issues around printing and getting more
 effective input methods in place, tablet acceptance will likely take
 off like a shot.

Again, I've watched businessmen playing with their pads.  And you're
right that they're reasonable for a read-only device (big enough screen,
less wieldy to carry around than a laptop and accessories), but nasty
for typing anything more than about a sentence or two.

As far as coming up with effective input method, there is little else
than a proper keyboard for doing extensive typing.  And I mean something
with physical buttons, that you can feel move.  Not just drawing a
keyboard on the screen.

Touchscreens are all very well for poking at large objects, but not very
good for fine detail.  While the mouse is hideous, it still tends to be
the most versatile.

 PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be greatly
 impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the
 sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well
 in this coming wave...

That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and impose a
tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa.  Yet, that
see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current
Gnome debacle).  Change doesn't necessarily mean progress.

-- 
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2.6.27.25-78.2.56.fc9.i686

Don't send private replies to my address, the mailbox is ignored.  I
read messages from the public lists.



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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-03 Thread Antonio Olivares

 To some Fedora 3 is a new technology , to others it is a

$ sed -i 's|Fedora 3|Gnome 3|g' To some Fedora 3 is a new technology , to 
others it is a

Right?

Fedora 3 was released long time ago, If I remember correctly Nov 2004 :)  

 road to
 madness. But one can hardly completely blame Fedora. It is
 the creation
 the Gnome developers who are what some of us think is the
 wrong track as
 Linus thinks it is.
 -- 

Regards,

Antonio 
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On Sun, 2011-12-04 at 12:35 +1030, Tim wrote:
 On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 19:21 -0700, Christopher A. Williams wrote:
  Smartphones are starting to displace even desktop computers and
  do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.)
  that were once solely the domain of PCs.
 
 Though, only if you are doing *BASIC* email.  Just try something more
 complicated, and you'll soon find using a midget gadget just isn't going
 to cut the mustard.  Scads of mail, threaded properly, etc.  There just
 isn't the screen real estate, to start with.  Then try writing a long
 email without a keyboard.

Don't assume that input options remain static or aren't being improved
upon continually. For example, Ice Cream Sandwich implements continuous
speech processing including punctuation which represents a real option
for many. Likewise, there are 'swipe' type input keyboards which with
some practice, are usable and reasonable for character entry. Don't
forget that usage of a QWERTY keyboard actual required learning and
practice and there are still a large amount of users who simply use 1 or
2 finger input having never learned to touch type anyway.

Then there are extremely portable bluetooth keyboards that can fold up
into your pockets... all sorts of options.
---

 Even with devices designed for the businessman to do things like that,
 such as the Blackberry, it's inadequate for the task.  I've sat next to
 them eeking out an email, and anything more than about two sentences is
 a major chore.

most of the people using Blackberry's are not necessarily tech savvy -
they're somewhat inferior devices. Besides, they have become irrelevant
in the marketplace, hemorrhaging money to the point where I wonder if
they won't be out of business in 3 years.

  Tablets are quickly displacing laptops in the business world. The main
  barrier is that they are more difficult to use for producing
  information than PCs at the moment. They are equally as good for those
  who are primarily consumers of information. Once tablet manufacturers
  actually decide to deal with issues around printing and getting more
  effective input methods in place, tablet acceptance will likely take
  off like a shot.
 
 Again, I've watched businessmen playing with their pads.  And you're
 right that they're reasonable for a read-only device (big enough screen,
 less wieldy to carry around than a laptop and accessories), but nasty
 for typing anything more than about a sentence or two.
 
 As far as coming up with effective input method, there is little else
 than a proper keyboard for doing extensive typing.  And I mean something
 with physical buttons, that you can feel move.  Not just drawing a
 keyboard on the screen.

Now that you're talking about tablets, there's things like Asus
Transformer which has a keyboard or the various keyboard 'cases' for
iPad so obviously there are other methods - apparently none of which you
use. On screen keyboards are reasonable for the younger generation and
reasonable for short messaging for most and a plethora of options exist
for extended usage.

By the way, I watched my daughter (33 y/o) typing on her HTC Incredible
today and she was lightning quick - it can be done... just takes
practice. Myself, I'm not so quick and I tend to go to voice entry for
lengthy stuff.

 Touchscreens are all very well for poking at large objects, but not very
 good for fine detail.  While the mouse is hideous, it still tends to be
 the most versatile.

True - I don't do 'fine' detail on my telephone but 'pinch to zoom'
allows you to access magnifications where even a fat finger can be like
a needle in many instances.

  PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be greatly
  impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the
  sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well
  in this coming wave...
 
 That's all very well, but it's rather ludicrous to try and impose a
 tablet interface onto a desktop or laptop, and vice versa.  Yet, that
 see to be the way that various desktops are going (e.g. the current
 Gnome debacle).  Change doesn't necessarily mean progress.

It seems obvious to me that there are 2 schools of thought here and
yours is shared by a few. The other school seems to think that the
desktop computer is just one of the various forms of computing and that
other forms will include small form factors (perhaps like Apple's 3.5
diagonal iPhone) to relatively small 4-5 to 7-8 and larger.

Perhaps these small form factors will drop into a laptop type shell
(like the Motorola Atrix), wirelessly connect to keyboard, mouse and
display when in an home or office environment, etc.

Now I don't know how things are progressing in your neck of the woods in
Australia but in America, the various tablets are jumping off the
shelves like hotcakes. Coming on the heels of the successes of the
netbooks indicates that the public wants

Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-02 Thread Craig White

On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 20:38 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
I'm a long time KDE user and survivor of the move to KDE 4.

Thought some of you may be interested in the view point of Linus

Hey, with gnome-tweak-tool and the dock extension, gnome-3.2 is
starting to look almost usable.

Now I just hope those things become part of the standard gnome shell
setup and made available in the regular system config thing rather
than hidden off. Sure, make them default to off if you want that clean
default, but make them easy to find and part of the standard install.

Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
actually matters.

What I did see on the Ubuntu list was a reference to this...

http://www.webupd8.org/2011/10/things-to-tweak-after-installing-ubuntu.html

which I thought was a rather helpful page and wonder if someone has done
something similar for Fedora (though much of the Ubuntu tweaks are
suitable for Fedora). One of the things I like about Ubuntu is that
there are some resources out there that don't seem to exist for Fedora.

and as long as I am quoting linking, I found this quote (attributable
to Paul Mauritz of VMWare) to be very intriguing...

Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the
Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will
probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices
connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal computers.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/can-ubuntu-linux-win-on-smartphones-and-tablets/9843

Craig

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-02 Thread Reindl Harald

Am 03.12.2011 02:38, schrieb Craig White:
 Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
 a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert 

maybe some of the self called ui-experts should take a deep breath
for one or two years and left the users in peace with their next big
thing so that people which are working with their computers are not
permanently interrupted

linus is not a ui-expert but he has more sensibility what users
needs than most of the experts - users are needing workspaces
which are not chaning their whole behavior each year

 Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the
 Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will
 probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices
 connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal computers.

this is nonsense

the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone
which is permanently online, but this does not mean that all these
people are only using a smartphone or tab which will not happen

not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years

theer are enough people working with their computers and not only
webbrowsing and write some mails!



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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2



Craig White craigwh...@azapple.com wrote:

On Fri,
Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
actually matters.


Yes of course, old boy.  Quite amusing.  More to the point: we tittered when we 
read that Linus had an opinion, and that some thought his opinions were 
regarded much more than those found in our ivory towers from which we post to a 
Fedora mailing list.

(Signed)

Wilbur Tanenbaum, esq., c.

Postscript,

Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the
Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will
probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices
connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal
computers.

http://www.zdnet.com

Say no more!  Such evidence is more than enough to establish just cause for 
amusement!

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-02 Thread Ed Greshko

On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
 Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
 a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
 those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
 actually matters.

So this is what I hear you saying.

Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer.  Thus, his opinion
does not matter. 
Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user.  Thus, the
opinions of end users don't matter.

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completely foolproof was to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-02 Thread Christopher A. Williams

On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 02:50 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:

 
  Three years ago over 95 percent of the devices connected to the
  Internet were personal computers. Three years from now that number will
  probably be less than 20 percent. More than 80 percent of the devices
  connected to the Internet will not be Windows-based personal computers.
 
 this is nonsense
 
 the percent does not matter since nearly everybody has a smartphone
 which is permanently online, but this does not mean that all these
 people are only using a smartphone or tab which will not happen
 
 not now, not in 3 years and not in 10 years
 
 theer are enough people working with their computers and not only
 webbrowsing and write some mails!

To the contrary, if you know the full context of Paul Maritz's quote
here, he actually makes complete sense.

I have heard him speak about this in-person and his overall points are
very convincing and well-grounded in facts. The *majority* of Internet
connected devices will definitely be in the smartphone and tablet
category in the next 3 years. That does not mean they will be the *only*
devices. Paul also clearly believes that, as a result of this change,
Windows as an operating system will continue to lose relevance in the
coming years. That's saying a lot considering he is the person who is
largely responsible for engineering the dominance of Windows 95 (whether
you'd call how he did it cheating or not).

He also believes operating systems like Linux will continue to gain in
acceptance and popularity over this time frame, but that this will still
mainly be from non-PC devices. He often refers to this as the coming
Post-PC era.

I believe he is largely correct.

The fact of the matter is we are already seeing this happen. Smartphones
are starting to displace even desktop computers in low income families
because they are cheaper (as in $200 range), constantly connected, and
do actually handle most of the basic tasks (e-mail, basic Web, etc.)
that were once solely the domain of PCs. Tablets are quickly displacing
laptops in the business world. The main barrier is that they are more
difficult to use for producing information than PCs at the moment. They
are equally as good for those who are primarily consumers of
information. Once tablet manufacturers actually decide to deal with
issues around printing and getting more effective input methods in
place, tablet acceptance will likely take off like a shot.

PCs will likely never go away, but to say that they will not be greatly
impacted by the coming age of new devices is to stick your head in the
sand and pretend that the change isn't coming. And Linux does very well
in this coming wave...

Chris

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==
The best way to sound like you know what you're talking about
is to know what you're talking about.

--Harvey Mackay

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-02 Thread Craig White

On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
 On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
  Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
  a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
  those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
  actually matters.
 
 So this is what I hear you saying.
 
 Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer.  Thus, his opinion
 does not matter. 
 Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user.  Thus, the
 opinions of end users don't matter.

I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).

You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
progress.

Craig


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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On 12/02/2011 07:10 PM, Craig White wrote:
 On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
 On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
 Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
 a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
 those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
 actually matters.
 So this is what I hear you saying.

 Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer.  Thus, his opinion
 does not matter. 
 Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user.  Thus, the
 opinions of end users don't matter.
 
 I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
 the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).

 You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
 you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
 users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
 progress.



Change for the sake of change has always been idiotic.

In the case of Gnome 2, how many person-hours have been invested for
people to customize their work environments?  And poof!  All gone!

But it is very hipcrime to be counter-cultural these days -- why yes,
let's poo-poo Linus' opinion -- after all, he's a long time Linux
user, whose opinion is ranked by idiots to be slightly lower than those
charged with the crime of the current Gnome UI regression.

Those who still employ critical thinking might be interested in the
logical fallacy we are being subjected to:

  http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#novitatem

...but we already knew that, didn't we?

 -Scott

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-02 Thread Ralf Corsepius

On 12/03/2011 04:10 AM, Craig White wrote:
 On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
 On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
 Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
 a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
 those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
 actually matters.

 So this is what I hear you saying.

 Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer.  Thus, his opinion
 does not matter.
 Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user.  Thus, the
 opinions of end users don't matter.
 
 I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
 the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).
ACK.

 You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
 you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
 users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
 progress.

Being one of these long time Linux users, I won't deny there is some 
truth in what you say. The bigger question is if Gnome 3 is actual 
progress or an epic fail?

When being presented Gnome 3, my feeling were the same as I had when my 
then-3-year-old nice had proudly presented me here flying horse.
Look Uncle, my horse has learned to fly (She had attached a couple of 
plastic feathers to her plush pony's back and was throwing it into my 
direction.).

Ralf

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-02 Thread Craig White

On Fri, 2011-12-02 at 19:40 -0800, Scott Doty wrote:
 On 12/02/2011 07:10 PM, Craig White wrote:
  On Sat, 2011-12-03 at 10:41 +0800, Ed Greshko wrote:
  On 12/03/2011 09:38 AM, Craig White wrote:
  Whatever Linus thinks of Gnome is rather beside the point in that he is
  a kernel developer, not a Desktop UI expert and I am rather amused by
  those who felt his dis' of Gnome 3 or apparently now his receptiveness
  actually matters.
  So this is what I hear you saying.
 
  Linus is a kernel developer and not a UI developer.  Thus, his opinion
  does not matter. 
  Since Linus is not a UI developer, he is only an end user.  Thus, the
  opinions of end users don't matter.
  
  I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
  the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).
 
  You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
  you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
  users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
  progress.
 
 
 
 Change for the sake of change has always been idiotic.
 
 In the case of Gnome 2, how many person-hours have been invested for
 people to customize their work environments?  And poof!  All gone!
 
 But it is very hipcrime to be counter-cultural these days -- why yes,
 let's poo-poo Linus' opinion -- after all, he's a long time Linux
 user, whose opinion is ranked by idiots to be slightly lower than those
 charged with the crime of the current Gnome UI regression.
 
 Those who still employ critical thinking might be interested in the
 logical fallacy we are being subjected to:
 
   http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#novitatem
 
 ...but we already knew that, didn't we?

Considering...

- that you can have your beloved Gnome 2 for at least another 5 years on
RHEL 6 (or various rebuilds thereof),

- that Fedora embraces the latest technology advances and yes, that
includes Gnome,

- that approximately 3 years is considered a generation in terms of
computer technology which includes everything from hardware to end user
interfaces,

- that regardless of you feelings of Gnome 3, there are people who
actually like it,

- that a significant portion of the Gnome code base had aged and needed
to be re-written was not merely 'Change for the sake of change',

- you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks about
Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion,

your whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list
before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different
name?

Craig


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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

2011-12-02 Thread Sam Varshavchik


Craig White writes:


I think his opinion matters as much as anyone else (and I gather that in
the eyes of Gnome developers, not so much).

You know my feelings as I too am a KDE 4 survivor ;-) To make an omelet,
you have to break some eggs. I think there is a core of long time Linux
users who were upset because their familiar interface changed. Such is
progress.


It's not that stuff has merely changed. It's that the stuff has changed,  
major parts of existing functionality were removed without having any  
functional replacements, and every time someone points this out, they're  
told that they're too stupid to know what's good for them, and this is The  
Better Way. There was a very good rant on Slashdot today, about an apparent  
army of fired UI experts that, apparently, have nothing better to do than  
invade existing projects, and remove existing functionality and replace it  
with rounded corners and gradient background colors.


In Gnome 2 I had a usable panel widget that showed my sensors CPU  
temperature, a small weather widget, and a power management widget that  
actually showed the watt-hour capacity of my laptop battery, so I can  
observe it degradation, with every passing month.


Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget. There's one now,  
which does not work. I can see why it's broken, it's reading off an internal  
hardcoded list of /sys paths, and my kernel creates /sys nodes for its eight  
CPU core thermal sensors that the widget doesn't know anything about, so it  
just sits there, and tells me I'm running at 0 degrees Celsius. There's  
still no weather panel wiget, to my knowledge. At one point I have a dim  
recollection that gnome-power-manager-extras existed, that added a  
comparable watt-hour popup, but right now nothing like it exists, and the  
icon just sits there with a single %-age label.


And I won't even get started on the clusterfracas with the desktop icons,  
and the evolution of the have file-manager handle the desktop option in  
tweaktools.




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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On 12/02/2011 08:48 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:


 In Gnome 2 I had a usable panel widget that showed my sensors CPU
 temperature, a small weather widget, and a power management widget
 that actually showed the watt-hour capacity of my laptop battery, so I
 can observe it degradation, with every passing month.

 Gnome 3 came without any kind of a sensors CPU widget. There's one
 now, which does not work. I can see why it's broken, it's reading off
 an internal hardcoded list of /sys paths, and my kernel creates /sys
 nodes for its eight CPU core thermal sensors that the widget doesn't
 know anything about, so it just sits there, and tells me I'm running
 at 0 degrees Celsius. There's still no weather panel wiget, to my
 knowledge. At one point I have a dim recollection that
 gnome-power-manager-extras existed, that added a comparable
 watt-hour popup, but right now nothing like it exists, and the icon
 just sits there with a single %-age label.

 And I won't even get started on the clusterfracas with the desktop
 icons, and the evolution of the have file-manager handle the desktop
 option in tweaktools.

BTW, I brought up these issues when I updated my laptop to F15, and it
was suggested I go tell it to the Gnome usability list.

   http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/usability

 -Scott

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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2

On 12/02/2011 09:02 PM, Craig White wrote:
 - you want to pin some relevance to whatever Linux Torvalds thinks
 about Gnome is actually significant to this or any discussion, your
 whimpers are laughable. I don't recall seeing you post on this list
 before tonight. Are you a longtime Fedora user? Been using a different
 name? Craig 

Pally, your blathering flamebait regarding Linus' opinion was unwanted,
unwelcome, and illustrative of the kind of thinking that idolizes shiny
things, without ever having to do real work on a computer.

I've personally been using Linux since 1992, Redhat since the
Halloween release up until FC1 began, and every release of FC/F up
until today -- not that that matters one iota, except to point out just
how much you've messed up, Son.

Old timers will note that I have attacked nothing but your arguments --
and if that reflects poorly on the arguer, that's for you to figure out.

Meanwhile, everybody sees what you just did -- and those with critical
thinking skills can see, plainly, the logical fallacies that you are
clearly unaware of having uttered.  That, too, is your problem -- all
because you posted your flame bait.

 -Scott
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Re: The Linus view of GNOME 3.2