[VIHUELA] Re: Unisons in Italy was Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[jean-michel Catherinot]

Case of Dentice is reported in "instructions" 1568, in english, by le
   Roy. Franc,ois Dry, in his vihuela thesis with Vaccaro, underlines the
   only Pisador source as implying  4th in unisons.
   --- En date de : Mer 1.9.10, Martin Shepherd  a
   ecrit :

 De: Martin Shepherd 
 Objet: [VIHUELA] Unisons in Italy was Re: Guitar stringing was Re:
 Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
 A: "Lute List" , "Vihuelalist"
 
 Date: Mercredi 1 septembre 2010, 6h37

   The main piece of evidence for unison stringing on the lute in late
   16th century Italy is the statement (where? can anyone help?  I think
   it's an English source) that Fabrizio Dentice introduced it.  And does
   Vincenzo Galilei mention it?  For what it's worth, Caravaggio's
   paintings seem to show unisons.
   The assumption of unison stringing for the vihuela, on the other hand,
   does seem to be just that (John Ward's 1955 PhD thesis), the only solid
   piece of evidence being Pisador's tuning instructions which imply a
   unison 4th course.  There is an interesting article in LSAQ some years
   ago called something like "The shaky case for unison stringing on the
   vihuela" - sorry I can't remember the author or the year.  Again, can
   someone provide the exact reference?
   Best wishes,
   Martin
   Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   >  Dear Jean-michel,
   >  Put a colon after 'octaves' as  '.../*strung in octaves: outside
   Italy*/' - I think you'll see what I meant   I didn't think
   the meaning wasn't obvious but I'm sorry if you were momentarily
   misled. As you'll see I do, of course, allow the earlier Italian lute
   in octave tuning.
   >  But, interestingly and to extend this thread a little, for the later
   16th century Italian repertoire do we really know how the lute was
   expected to be strung?  I'm not sure that octaves on 4th and 5th as
   well as the 6th (and lower) courses were still general by, say the
   1570s. Do you? Certainly the 17th century lute doesn't generally seem
   to have had octaves on the 4th and 5th (people like Piccinnini, Melli
   and Santino Garsi), so when did the change take place?  [Martin, have
   you done anything on this?]
   >  MH
   >
   > --- On *Tue, 31/8/10, jean-michel Catherinot
   /<[1]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com>/* wrote:
   >
   >
   > From: jean-michel Catherinot <[2]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com>
   > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
   > performed by Lex Eisenhardt
   > To: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List"
   > <[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Martin Shepherd"
   > <[5]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>, "Martyn Hodgson"
   <[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   > Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 15:03
   >
   > Except le Roy 's information about neapolitan school (with no
   >octaves), I'm not aware of an italian general habit of
   stringing
   >without octaves on the lute!
   > And most of lutenists today play high Renaissance lute music
   with
   >plain octave stringing (6 to 4) as far as I know. On the
   > vihuela, no
   >octave stringing began with Emilio Pujol, based only on an
   > ambiguous
   >tuning chart in Pisador. So...
   >--- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson
   ><[7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   >
   <[8]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
   .uk>>
   > a ecrit :
   >
   >  De: Martyn Hodgson <[9]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   >
   <[10]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.c
   o.uk>>
   >  Objet: [VIHUELA] Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
   >  performed by Lex Eisenhardt
   >  A: "Vihuelalist" <[11]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >
   <[12]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.
   edu>>,
   > "Lute List"
   >  <[13]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >
   <[14]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   >>,
   > "Martin Shepherd" <[15]mar...@luteshop.co.uk
   >
   <[16]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk
   >>
   >  Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 12h34
   >
   >   And, of course, in the heyday of the 5 course guitar, the
   > lute was
   >   always strung in octaves outside Italy the 'baroque'  lute
   >(generally
   >   in Dm tuning); in Italy  in the old tuning but still
   octaves
   > on the
   >   basses. But, interestingly and with relevance, we know that
   > some of
   >the
   >   French 'Old Ones' removed the lower string from the lowest
   > octave
   >pair
   >   as being too intrusive (Burwell, c1670 'That eleventh
   string
   > being
   >   alone .. The Lute-masters have taken away that great
   string
   >because
   >   the sound of it is t

[VIHUELA] Unisons in Italy was Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Martin Shepherd]

The main piece of evidence for unison stringing on the lute in late 16th 
century Italy is the statement (where? can anyone help?  I think it's an 
English source) that Fabrizio Dentice introduced it.  And does Vincenzo 
Galilei mention it?  For what it's worth, Caravaggio's paintings seem to 
show unisons.


The assumption of unison stringing for the vihuela, on the other hand, 
does seem to be just that (John Ward's 1955 PhD thesis), the only solid 
piece of evidence being Pisador's tuning instructions which imply a 
unison 4th course.  There is an interesting article in LSAQ some years 
ago called something like "The shaky case for unison stringing on the 
vihuela" - sorry I can't remember the author or the year.  Again, can 
someone provide the exact reference?


Best wishes,

Martin

Martyn Hodgson wrote:
 
Dear Jean-michel,
 
Put a colon after 'octaves' as  '.../*strung in octaves: outside 
Italy*/' - I think you'll see what I meant   I didn't 
think the meaning wasn't obvious but I'm sorry if you were momentarily 
misled. As you'll see I do, of course, allow the earlier Italian lute 
in octave tuning.
 
But, interestingly and to extend this thread a little, for the later 
16th century Italian repertoire do we really know how the lute was 
expected to be strung?  I'm not sure that octaves on 4th and 5th as 
well as the 6th (and lower) courses were still general by, say the 
1570s. Do you? Certainly the 17th century lute doesn't generally seem 
to have had octaves on the 4th and 5th (people like Piccinnini, Melli 
and Santino Garsi), so when did the change take place?  [Martin, have 
you done anything on this?]
 
MH


--- On *Tue, 31/8/10, jean-michel Catherinot 
//* wrote:



From: jean-michel Catherinot 
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
performed by Lex Eisenhardt
To: "Vihuelalist" , "Lute List"
, "Martin Shepherd"
, "Martyn Hodgson" 
Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 15:03

Except le Roy 's information about neapolitan school (with no
   octaves), I'm not aware of an italian general habit of stringing
   without octaves on the lute!
And most of lutenists today play high Renaissance lute music with
   plain octave stringing (6 to 4) as far as I know. On the
vihuela, no
   octave stringing began with Emilio Pujol, based only on an
ambiguous
   tuning chart in Pisador. So...
   --- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson
   http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>>
a ecrit :

 De: Martyn Hodgson http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>>
 Objet: [VIHUELA] Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
 performed by Lex Eisenhardt
 A: "Vihuelalist" http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>>,
"Lute List"
 http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>>,
"Martin Shepherd" http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk>>
 Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 12h34

  And, of course, in the heyday of the 5 course guitar, the
lute was
  always strung in octaves outside Italy the 'baroque'  lute
   (generally
  in Dm tuning); in Italy  in the old tuning but still octaves
on the
  basses. But, interestingly and with relevance, we know that
some of
   the
  French 'Old Ones' removed the lower string from the lowest
octave
   pair
  as being too intrusive (Burwell, c1670 'That eleventh string
being
  alone .. The Lute-masters have taken away that great string
   because
  the sound of it is too big.). In short they sacrificied the
   lower
  rather than the upper octave of the pair - once again
evidence that
   we
  need to be very careful about assuming that a 'complete' and, to
   some
  modern thinking, a more logical specification was always
what they
  aimed for.
  As said before, much of the reason for introducing the added
basses
   was
  not simply (or just) to 'improve' the bass register but was
also to
  free the left hand for work higher up the fingerboard. 
Mace(1676)

  certainly makes a great deal of this in his essay on 'The
LUTE made
  Easie' as making playing 'become Easie'  (no need for such
difficult
  left hand fingerings) and, of course, the technique became very
   widely
  used later and indeed was common practice by Weiss and other
18th
  century lutenists.
  MH
  --- On Tue, 31/8/10, Martin Shepherd
<[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk
>
   wrote:
From: Martin Shepherd <[2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk

[VIHUELA] Re: Euonimo and Aristonus

[Peter Kooiman]

I found an English translation of Strabo's, 6.1.9:


The Halex River, which marks the boundary between the Rhegian and the Locrian 
territories, passes out through a deep ravine; and a peculiar thing happens 
there in connection with the grasshoppers, that although those on the Locrian 
bank sing, the others remain mute. As for the cause of this, it is conjectured 
that on the latter side the region is so densely shaded that the grasshoppers, 
being wet with dew, cannot expand their membranes, whereas those on the sunny 
side have dry and horn-like membranes and therefore can easily produce their 
song. And people used to show in Locri a statue of Eunomus, the cithara-bard, 
with a locust seated on the cithara. Timaeus says that Eunomus and Ariston of 
Rhegium were once contesting with each other at the Pythian games and fell to 
quarrelling about the casting of the lots;so Ariston begged the Delphians to 
cooperate with him, for the reason that his ancestors belonged to the god and 
that the colony had been sent forth from there;and alth!
 ough Eunomus said that the Rhegini had absolutely no right even to participate 
in the vocal contests, since in their country even the grasshoppers, the 
sweetest-voiced of all creatures, were mute, Ariston was none the less held in 
favour and hoped for the victory; and yet Eunomus gained the victory and set up 
the aforesaid image in his native land, because during the contest, when one of 
the chords broke, a grasshopper lit on his cithara and supplied the missing 
sound. The interior above these cities is held by the Brettii; here is the city 
Mamertium, and also the forest that produces the best pitch, the Brettian. This 
forest is called Sila, is both well wooded and well watered, and is seven 
hundred stadia in length.

Peter

- Original Message -
From: "Peter Kooiman" 
To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 11:43:07 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Euonimo and Aristonus

It's from Strabo's Geographika, Strabo in turn attributes the story to Timaeos. 
I only have a German translation, a websearch for "Eunomos" will probably yield 
what you are looking for.

Regards 
Peter

- Original Message -
From: "Monica Hall" 
To: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 10:57:45 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Euonimo and Aristonus

   Is there anyone familiar with Classical litereature who know of the
   story of Euonimo.   Apparently he was competing with Ariston playing
   the cithara and broke a string (it happens to the best of us).  The
   Gods (all of them?) sent a Cicada (presumably a sort of silkworm) which
   produced such a wonderful string that he won the competition and a
   statue was erected to him.



   Does anyone know where the story comes from?



   Regards



   Monica

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Euonimo and Aristonus

[Peter Kooiman]

It's from Strabo's Geographika, Strabo in turn attributes the story to Timaeos. 
I only have a German translation, a websearch for "Eunomos" will probably yield 
what you are looking for.

Regards 
Peter

- Original Message -
From: "Monica Hall" 
To: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 10:57:45 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Euonimo and Aristonus

   Is there anyone familiar with Classical litereature who know of the
   story of Euonimo.   Apparently he was competing with Ariston playing
   the cithara and broke a string (it happens to the best of us).  The
   Gods (all of them?) sent a Cicada (presumably a sort of silkworm) which
   produced such a wonderful string that he won the competition and a
   statue was erected to him.



   Does anyone know where the story comes from?



   Regards



   Monica

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Euonimo and Aristonus

[Monica Hall]

   Is there anyone familiar with Classical litereature who know of the
   story of Euonimo.   Apparently he was competing with Ariston playing
   the cithara and broke a string (it happens to the best of us).  The
   Gods (all of them?) sent a Cicada (presumably a sort of silkworm) which
   produced such a wonderful string that he won the competition and a
   statue was erected to him.



   Does anyone know where the story comes from?



   Regards



   Monica

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Peter Kooiman]

>What is confusing you is that guitar music is always notated an octave higher 
>than it sounds.

Yup..I had mentally transposed your basenote d down to D...

Thanks for the explanation, that comment by Sanz about punto E had been bugging 
me for a while.

Peter
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Peter Kooiman" 
>> To: "Monica Hall" 
>> Cc: 
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
>>
>>
>>> Hello Monica,
>>>
>>> Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the 
>>> unequal
>>> thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that
>>>
>>> "..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta
>>> vacante en quarta baxo",
>>>
>>> in the translation from your stringing article:
>>>
>>> "Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, 
>>> which
>>> is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor],
>>> the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and
>>> confuses the proper  bass"
>>>
>>> which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing
>>> happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is 
>>> produced
>>> without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th 
>>> and
>>> not on 5th?
>>>
>>> Peter
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Monica Hall" 
>>> To: "Chris Despopoulos" 
>>> Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM
>>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
>>>
>>> There is rather a lot to respond to here!
>>>
>>> I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly.  It broadens the 
>>> scope
>>> of things beyond what it is practical to keep
>>> track of.   (And I have never heard any of his music!!!  (woeful
>>> ignorance!)
>>>
>>> Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is 
>>> explicitly
>>> intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning.
>>>
>>> But that is not actually what he says.   Without going through it all he
>>> considers two options and ends by saying
>>>
>>> "Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the
>>> purpose for which you are playing."
>>>
>>> We just might have a bit of a choice
>>>
>>> However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate
>>> solo music like that of Bartolotti
>>> are all to do with the kind of strings available.
>>>
>>> "If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use 
>>> campanelas,
>>> which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well 
>>> as
>>> do only thin strings  on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I
>>> have
>>> had much experience.  This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and
>>> other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with  them
>>> because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the 
>>> hand
>>> cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two
>>> thin strings."
>>>
>>> Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave
>>> doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down 
>>> two
>>> strings of unequal thickness - and he should know.
>>>
>>> And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on 
>>> occasions
>>> for much the same reasons.
>>>
>>> When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took
>>> nearly
>>> 150 years before this development took place.   The most likely
>>> explanation
>>> is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing  and because
>>> re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a 
>>> re-entrant
>>> tuning.   Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th
>>> century bourdons were a more practical option.   But after octave
>>> stringing
>>> became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any 
>>> merit
>>> seems to have been composed for it.   It was used mainly to provide
>>> "Alberti" bass style accompaniments for the voice.
>>>
>>> As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower
>>> courses
>>> it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above.   There is a
>>> problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the "Great Divide" between
>>> the
>>> 3rd and 4th courses.   However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the
>>> re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow.
>>>
>>> Bear in mind also that  the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for
>>> unaccompannied
>>> violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant
>>> guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to
>>> follow the musical argument.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you need to be a violinist to appreciate baroque guitar music
>>> (which
>>> I was in the dim distant past).
>>>
>>> Monica
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "Chris Despopoulos" 
>>> To: "Monica Hall" 
>>> Cc: "Vihuelalis

[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Monica Hall]

I may be denser than usual today, but


Not really - but without staff notation it is very difficult to explain.


 Assuming that
your viola da gamba or theorbo was playing the note d on the middle line 
of

the bass stave,



That would be D, right?


No - following the standard way of indicating the pitch of note the bass
instrument will be playing the note d - on the middle line of the bass 
clef.


With a bourdon punto E would be A d a d' f', with A still a fifth above 
the base line instrument surely?


No... it is a 4th below - A is in the lowest space in the bass stave. 
What is

confusing you is that guitar music is always notated an octave higher than
it sounds.

With the re-entrant tuning the chord E will be

ad'   a   d'   f'

The fact that guitar music is always notated an octave higher is another
reason why there is so mcuh confusion about how it really sounds.   In some
ways it would be better to notate it at pitch of two staves.

Monica


Peter




- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Kooiman" 

To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt



Hello Monica,

Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the 
unequal

thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that

"..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta
vacante en quarta baxo",

in the translation from your stringing article:

"Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, 
which

is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor],
the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and
confuses the proper  bass"

which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing
happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is 
produced
without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th 
and

not on 5th?

Peter

- Original Message -
From: "Monica Hall" 
To: "Chris Despopoulos" 
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

There is rather a lot to respond to here!

I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly.  It broadens the 
scope

of things beyond what it is practical to keep
track of.   (And I have never heard any of his music!!!  (woeful
ignorance!)

Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is 
explicitly

intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning.

But that is not actually what he says.   Without going through it all he
considers two options and ends by saying

"Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the
purpose for which you are playing."

We just might have a bit of a choice

However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate
solo music like that of Bartolotti
are all to do with the kind of strings available.

"If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use 
campanelas,
which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well 
as

do only thin strings  on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I
have
had much experience.  This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and
other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with  them
because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the 
hand

cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two
thin strings."

Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave
doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down 
two

strings of unequal thickness - and he should know.

And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on 
occasions

for much the same reasons.

When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took
nearly
150 years before this development took place.   The most likely
explanation
is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing  and because
re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a 
re-entrant

tuning.   Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th
century bourdons were a more practical option.   But after octave
stringing
became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any 
merit

seems to have been composed for it.   It was used mainly to provide
"Alberti" bass style accompaniments for the voice.

As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower
courses
it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above.   There is a
problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the "Great Divide" between
the
3rd and 4th courses.   However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the
re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow.

Bear in mind also that  the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for
unaccompannied
violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant
guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to
follow the music

[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Peter Kooiman]

Yup, just realized was being thicker than usual, please disregard!


- Original Message -
From: "Peter Kooiman" 
To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 5:24:09 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

I may be denser than usual today, but

>Not if you have another instrument playing the bass line.   Assuming that 
>your viola da gamba or theorbo was playing the note d on the middle line of 
>the bass stave, 

That would be D, right?

>with a bourdon on the 5th course the 5th of the chord will 
>sound a fourth below.   

With a bourdon punto E would be A d a d' f', with A still a fifth above the 
base line instrument surely?

Peter

- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Kooiman" 
To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt


> Hello Monica,
>
> Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal
> thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that
>
> "..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta
> vacante en quarta baxo",
>
> in the translation from your stringing article:
>
> "Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which
> is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor],
> the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and
> confuses the proper  bass"
>
> which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing
> happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced
> without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and
> not on 5th?
>
> Peter
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Monica Hall" 
> To: "Chris Despopoulos" 
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
> Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
>
> There is rather a lot to respond to here!
>
> I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly.  It broadens the scope
> of things beyond what it is practical to keep
> track of.   (And I have never heard any of his music!!!  (woeful
> ignorance!)
>
> Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly
> intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning.
>
> But that is not actually what he says.   Without going through it all he
> considers two options and ends by saying
>
> "Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the
> purpose for which you are playing."
>
> We just might have a bit of a choice
>
> However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate
> solo music like that of Bartolotti
> are all to do with the kind of strings available.
>
> "If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas,
> which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as
> do only thin strings  on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I
> have
> had much experience.  This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and
> other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with  them
> because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand
> cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two
> thin strings."
>
> Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave
> doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two
> strings of unequal thickness - and he should know.
>
> And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions
> for much the same reasons.
>
> When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took
> nearly
> 150 years before this development took place.   The most likely
> explanation
> is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing  and because
> re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant
> tuning.   Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th
> century bourdons were a more practical option.   But after octave
> stringing
> became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit
> seems to have been composed for it.   It was used mainly to provide
> "Alberti" bass style accompaniments for the voice.
>
> As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower
> courses
> it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above.   There is a
> problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the "Great Divide" between
> the
> 3rd and 4th courses.   However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the
> re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow.
>
> Bear in mind also that  the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for
> unaccompannied
> violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant
> guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to
> follow the musical argument.
>
> Perhaps you need to be a violinist to appreciate baroque guitar music
> (which
> I was in the dim distant past).
>

[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Peter Kooiman]

I may be denser than usual today, but

>Not if you have another instrument playing the bass line.   Assuming that 
>your viola da gamba or theorbo was playing the note d on the middle line of 
>the bass stave, 

That would be D, right?

>with a bourdon on the 5th course the 5th of the chord will 
>sound a fourth below.   

With a bourdon punto E would be A d a d' f', with A still a fifth above the 
base line instrument surely?

Peter

- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Kooiman" 
To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt


> Hello Monica,
>
> Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal
> thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that
>
> "..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta
> vacante en quarta baxo",
>
> in the translation from your stringing article:
>
> "Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which
> is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor],
> the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and
> confuses the proper  bass"
>
> which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing
> happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced
> without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and
> not on 5th?
>
> Peter
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Monica Hall" 
> To: "Chris Despopoulos" 
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
> Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
>
> There is rather a lot to respond to here!
>
> I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly.  It broadens the scope
> of things beyond what it is practical to keep
> track of.   (And I have never heard any of his music!!!  (woeful
> ignorance!)
>
> Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly
> intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning.
>
> But that is not actually what he says.   Without going through it all he
> considers two options and ends by saying
>
> "Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the
> purpose for which you are playing."
>
> We just might have a bit of a choice
>
> However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate
> solo music like that of Bartolotti
> are all to do with the kind of strings available.
>
> "If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas,
> which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as
> do only thin strings  on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I
> have
> had much experience.  This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and
> other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with  them
> because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand
> cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two
> thin strings."
>
> Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave
> doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two
> strings of unequal thickness - and he should know.
>
> And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions
> for much the same reasons.
>
> When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took
> nearly
> 150 years before this development took place.   The most likely
> explanation
> is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing  and because
> re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant
> tuning.   Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th
> century bourdons were a more practical option.   But after octave
> stringing
> became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit
> seems to have been composed for it.   It was used mainly to provide
> "Alberti" bass style accompaniments for the voice.
>
> As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower
> courses
> it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above.   There is a
> problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the "Great Divide" between
> the
> 3rd and 4th courses.   However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the
> re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow.
>
> Bear in mind also that  the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for
> unaccompannied
> violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant
> guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to
> follow the musical argument.
>
> Perhaps you need to be a violinist to appreciate baroque guitar music
> (which
> I was in the dim distant past).
>
> Monica
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Chris Despopoulos" 
> To: "Monica Hall" 
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:30 AM
> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
>
>
>>   Random musings f

[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[jean-michel Catherinot]

   --- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson
a ecrit :

 De: Martyn Hodgson 
 Objet: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
 performed by Lex Eisenhardt
 A: "Vihuelalist" , "Lute List"
 , "Martin Shepherd" ,
 "jean-michel Catherinot" 
 Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 14h51

  Dear Jean-michel,
  Put a colon after 'octaves' as  '...strung in octaves: outside
  Italy' - I think you'll see what I meant   I didn't
   think
  the meaning wasn't obvious but I'm sorry if you were momentarily
  misled. As you'll see I do, of course, allow the earlier Italian
   lute
  in octave tuning.
  But, interestingly and to extend this thread a little, for the later
  16th century Italian repertoire do we really know how the lute was
  expected to be strung?  I'm not sure that octaves on 4th and 5th as
  well as the 6th (and lower) courses were still general by, say the
  1570s. Do you? Certainly the 17th century lute doesn't generally
   seem
  to have had octaves on the 4th and 5th
   Which sources or which evidences say that? In my opinion, Laurencini,
   reported by Besard, would have had at least octaves on 6 and 5. That's
   a very good question to make clear: I tried some time ago Molinaro with
   octave stringing, and was not very much convinced, but  who knows?
   Gabrieli says he is against octave stringing...so octave stringing
   exists. In fact, I've the feeling that stringing depends on string
   length, but with no historical proof. The most problematic is indeed
   period between 1570 and 1620.
   (people like Piccinnini, Melli
  and Santino Garsi), so when did the change take place?  [Martin,
   have
  you done anything on this?]
  MH
  --- On Tue, 31/8/10, jean-michel Catherinot
  <[1]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com> wrote:
From: jean-michel Catherinot <[2]jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
performed by Lex Eisenhardt
To: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List"
<[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Martin Shepherd"
   <[5]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>,
"Martyn Hodgson" <[6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 15:03
  Except le Roy 's information about neapolitan school (with no
 octaves), I'm not aware of an italian general habit of stringing
 without octaves on the lute!
  And most of lutenists today play high Renaissance lute music
   with
 plain octave stringing (6 to 4) as far as I know. On the vihuela,
   no
 octave stringing began with Emilio Pujol, based only on an
   ambiguous
 tuning chart in Pisador. So...
 --- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson
 <[1][7]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> a ecrit :
   De: Martyn Hodgson <[2][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
   Objet: [VIHUELA] Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
   performed by Lex Eisenhardt
   A: "Vihuelalist" <[3][9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List"
   <[4][10]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Martin Shepherd"
  <[5][11]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 12h34
And, of course, in the heyday of the 5 course guitar, the lute
  was
always strung in octaves outside Italy the 'baroque'  lute
 (generally
in Dm tuning); in Italy  in the old tuning but still octaves
   on
  the
basses. But, interestingly and with relevance, we know that
   some
  of
 the
French 'Old Ones' removed the lower string from the lowest
   octave
 pair
as being too intrusive (Burwell, c1670 'That eleventh string
  being
alone .. The Lute-masters have taken away that great
   string
 because
the sound of it is too big.). In short they sacrificied
   the
 lower
rather than the upper octave of the pair - once again evidence
  that
 we
need to be very careful about assuming that a 'complete' and,
   to
 some
modern thinking, a more logical specification was always what
  they
aimed for.
As said before, much of the reason for introducing the added
  basses
 was
not simply (or just) to 'improve' the bass register but was
   also
  to
free the left hand for work higher up the fingerboard.
  Mace(1676)
certainly makes a great deal of this in his essay on 'The LUTE
  made
Easie' as making playing 'become Easie'  (no need for such
  difficult
left hand fingerings) and, of course, the technique became
   very
 widely
used later and indeed was common practice by Weiss and other
   18th
century lutenists.
MH
 

[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Monica Hall]

Not if you have another instrument playing the bass line.   Assuming that 
your viola da gamba or theorbo was playing the note d on the middle line of 
the bass stave, with a bourdon on the 5th course the 5th of the chord will 
sound a fourth below.   With the re-entrant tuning the lowest sounding note 
of Chord E will sound a 5th above.


Can't make it clear without an example in staff notation.

Monica


- Original Message - 
From: "Peter Kooiman" 

To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt



Hello Monica,

Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal
thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that

"..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta
vacante en quarta baxo",

in the translation from your stringing article:

"Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which
is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor],
the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and
confuses the proper  bass"

which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing
happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced
without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and
not on 5th?

Peter

- Original Message -
From: "Monica Hall" 
To: "Chris Despopoulos" 
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

There is rather a lot to respond to here!

I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly.  It broadens the scope
of things beyond what it is practical to keep
track of.   (And I have never heard any of his music!!!  (woeful
ignorance!)

Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly
intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning.

But that is not actually what he says.   Without going through it all he
considers two options and ends by saying

"Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the
purpose for which you are playing."

We just might have a bit of a choice

However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate
solo music like that of Bartolotti
are all to do with the kind of strings available.

"If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas,
which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as
do only thin strings  on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I
have
had much experience.  This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and
other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with  them
because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand
cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two
thin strings."

Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave
doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two
strings of unequal thickness - and he should know.

And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions
for much the same reasons.

When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took
nearly
150 years before this development took place.   The most likely
explanation
is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing  and because
re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant
tuning.   Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th
century bourdons were a more practical option.   But after octave
stringing
became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit
seems to have been composed for it.   It was used mainly to provide
"Alberti" bass style accompaniments for the voice.

As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower
courses
it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above.   There is a
problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the "Great Divide" between
the
3rd and 4th courses.   However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the
re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow.

Bear in mind also that  the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for
unaccompannied
violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant
guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to
follow the musical argument.

Perhaps you need to be a violinist to appreciate baroque guitar music
(which
I was in the dim distant past).

Monica










- Original Message - 
From: "Chris Despopoulos" 

To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:30 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt



  Random musings from a folksy perspective...  Not scholarship, just a
  love for the guitar in all its forms.
  Going back to good old Lead Belly (Huddie Ledbetter), who played the
  12-string guitar because he wanted a loud, piano-like sound -- n

[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Dear Jean-michel,

   Put a colon after 'octaves' as  '...strung in octaves: outside
   Italy' - I think you'll see what I meant   I didn't think
   the meaning wasn't obvious but I'm sorry if you were momentarily
   misled. As you'll see I do, of course, allow the earlier Italian lute
   in octave tuning.

   But, interestingly and to extend this thread a little, for the later
   16th century Italian repertoire do we really know how the lute was
   expected to be strung?  I'm not sure that octaves on 4th and 5th as
   well as the 6th (and lower) courses were still general by, say the
   1570s. Do you? Certainly the 17th century lute doesn't generally seem
   to have had octaves on the 4th and 5th (people like Piccinnini, Melli
   and Santino Garsi), so when did the change take place?  [Martin, have
   you done anything on this?]

   MH
   --- On Tue, 31/8/10, jean-michel Catherinot
wrote:

 From: jean-michel Catherinot 
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
 performed by Lex Eisenhardt
 To: "Vihuelalist" , "Lute List"
 , "Martin Shepherd" ,
 "Martyn Hodgson" 
 Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 15:03

   Except le Roy 's information about neapolitan school (with no
  octaves), I'm not aware of an italian general habit of stringing
  without octaves on the lute!
   And most of lutenists today play high Renaissance lute music with
  plain octave stringing (6 to 4) as far as I know. On the vihuela, no
  octave stringing began with Emilio Pujol, based only on an ambiguous
  tuning chart in Pisador. So...
  --- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson
  <[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> a ecrit :
De: Martyn Hodgson <[2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Objet: [VIHUELA] Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
performed by Lex Eisenhardt
A: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List"
<[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Martin Shepherd"
   <[5]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 12h34
 And, of course, in the heyday of the 5 course guitar, the lute
   was
 always strung in octaves outside Italy the 'baroque'  lute
  (generally
 in Dm tuning); in Italy  in the old tuning but still octaves on
   the
 basses. But, interestingly and with relevance, we know that some
   of
  the
 French 'Old Ones' removed the lower string from the lowest octave
  pair
 as being too intrusive (Burwell, c1670 'That eleventh string
   being
 alone .. The Lute-masters have taken away that great string
  because
 the sound of it is too big.). In short they sacrificied the
  lower
 rather than the upper octave of the pair - once again evidence
   that
  we
 need to be very careful about assuming that a 'complete' and, to
  some
 modern thinking, a more logical specification was always what
   they
 aimed for.
 As said before, much of the reason for introducing the added
   basses
  was
 not simply (or just) to 'improve' the bass register but was also
   to
 free the left hand for work higher up the fingerboard.
   Mace(1676)
 certainly makes a great deal of this in his essay on 'The LUTE
   made
 Easie' as making playing 'become Easie'  (no need for such
   difficult
 left hand fingerings) and, of course, the technique became very
  widely
 used later and indeed was common practice by Weiss and other 18th
 century lutenists.
 MH
 --- On Tue, 31/8/10, Martin Shepherd
   <[1][6]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
  wrote:
   From: Martin Shepherd <[2][7]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex
  Eisenhardt
   To: "Vihuelalist" <[3][8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List"
   <[4][9]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 9:46
 Hi All,
 Just to give a lutenist's perspective (and copying to the lute
   list
  as
 it might be of interest there):
 For much of the 16th century lutes were routinely strung with
  octaves
 on courses 4-6.  Almost equally routinely, the upper octaves are
 ignored as far as the counterpoint is concerned - lutenists
   making
 intabulations (with a few notable exceptions) just intabulated
   the
 voice parts literally.  The degree to which the upper octave can
   be
 heard depends on many things, but perhaps most of all the skill
   of
  the
 player - mostly, you want the octave to be audible but not too
  strong
 as it is really there to "colour" the sound, adding some upper
  partials
 to the sound of the gut basses.  The re-entrant tuning of the
   guitar
  is
 another kettle of fish
 Just as an asi

[VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[jean-michel Catherinot]

Except le Roy 's information about neapolitan school (with no
   octaves), I'm not aware of an italian general habit of stringing
   without octaves on the lute!
And most of lutenists today play high Renaissance lute music with
   plain octave stringing (6 to 4) as far as I know. On the vihuela, no
   octave stringing began with Emilio Pujol, based only on an ambiguous
   tuning chart in Pisador. So...
   --- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson
a ecrit :

 De: Martyn Hodgson 
 Objet: [VIHUELA] Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
 performed by Lex Eisenhardt
 A: "Vihuelalist" , "Lute List"
 , "Martin Shepherd" 
 Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 12h34

  And, of course, in the heyday of the 5 course guitar, the lute was
  always strung in octaves outside Italy the 'baroque'  lute
   (generally
  in Dm tuning); in Italy  in the old tuning but still octaves on the
  basses. But, interestingly and with relevance, we know that some of
   the
  French 'Old Ones' removed the lower string from the lowest octave
   pair
  as being too intrusive (Burwell, c1670 'That eleventh string being
  alone .. The Lute-masters have taken away that great string
   because
  the sound of it is too big.). In short they sacrificied the
   lower
  rather than the upper octave of the pair - once again evidence that
   we
  need to be very careful about assuming that a 'complete' and, to
   some
  modern thinking, a more logical specification was always what they
  aimed for.
  As said before, much of the reason for introducing the added basses
   was
  not simply (or just) to 'improve' the bass register but was also to
  free the left hand for work higher up the fingerboard.  Mace(1676)
  certainly makes a great deal of this in his essay on 'The LUTE made
  Easie' as making playing 'become Easie'  (no need for such difficult
  left hand fingerings) and, of course, the technique became very
   widely
  used later and indeed was common practice by Weiss and other 18th
  century lutenists.
  MH
  --- On Tue, 31/8/10, Martin Shepherd <[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
   wrote:
From: Martin Shepherd <[2]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex
   Eisenhardt
To: "Vihuelalist" <[3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Lute List"
<[4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 9:46
  Hi All,
  Just to give a lutenist's perspective (and copying to the lute list
   as
  it might be of interest there):
  For much of the 16th century lutes were routinely strung with
   octaves
  on courses 4-6.  Almost equally routinely, the upper octaves are
  ignored as far as the counterpoint is concerned - lutenists making
  intabulations (with a few notable exceptions) just intabulated the
  voice parts literally.  The degree to which the upper octave can be
  heard depends on many things, but perhaps most of all the skill of
   the
  player - mostly, you want the octave to be audible but not too
   strong
  as it is really there to "colour" the sound, adding some upper
   partials
  to the sound of the gut basses.  The re-entrant tuning of the guitar
   is
  another kettle of fish
  Just as an aside, Dowland's remarks on octaves in Varietie of Lute
  Lessons (1610) have been widely misunderstood, even though what he
  writes is perfectly clear.  He says that octaves were used more in
  England than elsewhere, so there is some justification (and quite a
   bit
  of evidence from the music itself) for using octaves even up to the
   4th
  course in the music of Cutting, John Johnson, Holborne, and anyone
   else
  active in the 1580s and 90s (except possibly Ferrabosco, since he
  probably brought his Italian habits with him!).  Oh and of course
  Barley's book of 1597 specifies octaves on courses 4-6, and although
   he
  borrowed much of his material from Le Roy (1568) he obviously
   thought
  it was still common practice.
  Best wishes,
  Martin
  Monica Hall wrote:
  > Yes - that is certainly the case.  However with baroque guitar
   music
  the octaves are intermittent rather than continuous.   The other
   point
  is that because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to
   hear
  the upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the
   instrument
  has a small compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap
   with
  the notes on the upper courses.   You get the same effect with
   octave
  stringing on the third course. It is not that one voice in the
  counterpoint is being duplicated. This is rather  different from
  playing passages in octaves on the piano or harpsichord - where
   there
  wont be the same overlapping.   On the organ it is possible to play
  different 

[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Peter Kooiman]

Hello Monica,

Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal 
thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that

"..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta vacante 
en quarta baxo", 

in the translation from your stringing article:

"Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which is D 
lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor], 
the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and confuses the 
proper  bass"

which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing happen 
without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced without 
bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and not on 5th? 

Peter

- Original Message -
From: "Monica Hall" 
To: "Chris Despopoulos" 
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

There is rather a lot to respond to here!

I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly.  It broadens the scope 
of things beyond what it is practical to keep
track of.   (And I have never heard any of his music!!!  (woeful ignorance!)

Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly
intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning.

But that is not actually what he says.   Without going through it all he
considers two options and ends by saying

"Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the
purpose for which you are playing."

We just might have a bit of a choice

However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate 
solo music like that of Bartolotti
are all to do with the kind of strings available.

"If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas,
which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as
do only thin strings  on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I have
had much experience.  This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and
other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with  them
because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand
cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two
thin strings."

Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave
doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two
strings of unequal thickness - and he should know.

And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions 
for much the same reasons.

When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took  nearly
150 years before this development took place.   The most likely explanation
is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing  and because 
re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant
tuning.   Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th
century bourdons were a more practical option.   But after octave stringing 
became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit 
seems to have been composed for it.   It was used mainly to provide 
"Alberti" bass style accompaniments for the voice.

As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower courses 
it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above.   There is a 
problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the "Great Divide" between the 
3rd and 4th courses.   However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the 
re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow.

Bear in mind also that  the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for unaccompannied 
violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant 
guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to 
follow the musical argument.

Perhaps you need to be a violinist to appreciate baroque guitar music (which 
I was in the dim distant past).

Monica










- Original Message - 
From: "Chris Despopoulos" 
To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:30 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt


>   Random musings from a folksy perspective...  Not scholarship, just a
>   love for the guitar in all its forms.
>   Going back to good old Lead Belly (Huddie Ledbetter), who played the
>   12-string guitar because he wanted a loud, piano-like sound -- not
>   unlike the advice we get from Sanz about bordones -- I have to say that
>   nobody really worries about doubled octaves, nor which octave to pick
>   out when listening to him.  When Lead Belly played a walking bass, is
>   was a BASS line, no doubt about it.  The octave adds PRESENCE, but the
>   note is BASS.
>   Were the strings so different in the 17th C. that one could have so
>   much doubt about the *sound* or *register* of a note played on
>   bordones?  If both strings were struck together equally (say in a
>   trill, or rasgueado, or even playing a 

[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Monica Hall]

There is rather a lot to respond to here!

I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly.  It broadens the scope 
of things beyond what it is practical to keep

track of.   (And I have never heard any of his music!!!  (woeful ignorance!)

Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly
intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning.

But that is not actually what he says.   Without going through it all he
considers two options and ends by saying

"Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the
purpose for which you are playing."

We just might have a bit of a choice

However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate 
solo music like that of Bartolotti

are all to do with the kind of strings available.

"If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas,
which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as
do only thin strings  on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I have
had much experience.  This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and
other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with  them
because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand
cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two
thin strings."

Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave
doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two
strings of unequal thickness - and he should know.

And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions 
for much the same reasons.


When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took  nearly
150 years before this development took place.   The most likely explanation
is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing  and because 
re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant

tuning.   Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th
century bourdons were a more practical option.   But after octave stringing 
became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit 
seems to have been composed for it.   It was used mainly to provide 
"Alberti" bass style accompaniments for the voice.


As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower courses 
it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above.   There is a 
problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the "Great Divide" between the 
3rd and 4th courses.   However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the 
re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow.


Bear in mind also that  the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for unaccompannied 
violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant 
guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to 
follow the musical argument.


Perhaps you need to be a violinist to appreciate baroque guitar music (which 
I was in the dim distant past).


Monica










- Original Message - 
From: "Chris Despopoulos" 

To: "Monica Hall" 
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:30 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt



  Random musings from a folksy perspective...  Not scholarship, just a
  love for the guitar in all its forms.
  Going back to good old Lead Belly (Huddie Ledbetter), who played the
  12-string guitar because he wanted a loud, piano-like sound -- not
  unlike the advice we get from Sanz about bordones -- I have to say that
  nobody really worries about doubled octaves, nor which octave to pick
  out when listening to him.  When Lead Belly played a walking bass, is
  was a BASS line, no doubt about it.  The octave adds PRESENCE, but the
  note is BASS.
  Were the strings so different in the 17th C. that one could have so
  much doubt about the *sound* or *register* of a note played on
  bordones?  If both strings were struck together equally (say in a
  trill, or rasgueado, or even playing a single "note"), could it be so
  ambiguous that the performer or listener would be in doubt as to the
  intention or placement of the note in the overall scheme?  I find that
  hard to believe.  And wouldn't the evolution from a double-strung to
  single-strung six-string guitar indicate that the *hearing* was in the
  bass, so dropping the higher octave was a natural step?  (Yes, I'm
  saying I hear bass in the bordon.  Is that a cultural artifact, or a
  physical norm?)  At least we can say guitar manuscripts evolved to ask
  for the added range in the bass.  But the logic of re-entrant tuning
  makes it unlikely to add on a redundant 6th course at E.  Without
  bordones taken as bass, why the 6th E?
  So that brought me to the next question...  We're talking about an age
  where exquisite details were the order of the day.  Why *wouldn't*
  performers adjust their playing to emphasize one octave or another?
  (And boy, did that stir up some responses!)

[VIHUELA] Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Martyn Hodgson]

   And, of course, in the heyday of the 5 course guitar, the lute was
   always strung in octaves outside Italy the 'baroque'  lute (generally
   in Dm tuning); in Italy  in the old tuning but still octaves on the
   basses. But, interestingly and with relevance, we know that some of the
   French 'Old Ones' removed the lower string from the lowest octave pair
   as being too intrusive (Burwell, c1670 'That eleventh string being
   alone .. The Lute-masters have taken away that great string because
   the sound of it is too big.). In short they sacrificied the lower
   rather than the upper octave of the pair - once again evidence that we
   need to be very careful about assuming that a 'complete' and, to some
   modern thinking, a more logical specification was always what they
   aimed for.

   As said before, much of the reason for introducing the added basses was
   not simply (or just) to 'improve' the bass register but was also to
   free the left hand for work higher up the fingerboard.  Mace(1676)
   certainly makes a great deal of this in his essay on 'The LUTE made
   Easie' as making playing 'become Easie'  (no need for such difficult
   left hand fingerings) and, of course, the technique became very widely
   used later and indeed was common practice by Weiss and other 18th
   century lutenists.

   MH
   --- On Tue, 31/8/10, Martin Shepherd  wrote:

 From: Martin Shepherd 
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
 To: "Vihuelalist" , "Lute List"
 
 Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 9:46

   Hi All,
   Just to give a lutenist's perspective (and copying to the lute list as
   it might be of interest there):
   For much of the 16th century lutes were routinely strung with octaves
   on courses 4-6.  Almost equally routinely, the upper octaves are
   ignored as far as the counterpoint is concerned - lutenists making
   intabulations (with a few notable exceptions) just intabulated the
   voice parts literally.  The degree to which the upper octave can be
   heard depends on many things, but perhaps most of all the skill of the
   player - mostly, you want the octave to be audible but not too strong
   as it is really there to "colour" the sound, adding some upper partials
   to the sound of the gut basses.  The re-entrant tuning of the guitar is
   another kettle of fish
   Just as an aside, Dowland's remarks on octaves in Varietie of Lute
   Lessons (1610) have been widely misunderstood, even though what he
   writes is perfectly clear.  He says that octaves were used more in
   England than elsewhere, so there is some justification (and quite a bit
   of evidence from the music itself) for using octaves even up to the 4th
   course in the music of Cutting, John Johnson, Holborne, and anyone else
   active in the 1580s and 90s (except possibly Ferrabosco, since he
   probably brought his Italian habits with him!).  Oh and of course
   Barley's book of 1597 specifies octaves on courses 4-6, and although he
   borrowed much of his material from Le Roy (1568) he obviously thought
   it was still common practice.
   Best wishes,
   Martin
   Monica Hall wrote:
   > Yes - that is certainly the case.  However with baroque guitar music
   the octaves are intermittent rather than continuous.   The other point
   is that because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to hear
   the upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the instrument
   has a small compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap with
   the notes on the upper courses.   You get the same effect with octave
   stringing on the third course. It is not that one voice in the
   counterpoint is being duplicated. This is rather  different from
   playing passages in octaves on the piano or harpsichord - where there
   wont be the same overlapping.   On the organ it is possible to play
   different parts on different manuals but this raises quite different
   issues from the guitar.
   >
   > The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too because
   one of the arguments put forward in favour of unison stringing is that
   the individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the high
   octave strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave
   stringing even for the earlier repertoire  but when they do the effect
   this has on the music is very noticeable and quite difficult to adapt
   to.   And as far as I am aware, they don't put the high octave string
   on the thumb side of a course.
   >
   > Monica
   >
   >
   > - Original Message - From: "[1]michael.f...@notesinc.com"
   <[2]michael.f...@notesinc.com>
   > To: "'Lex Eisenhardt'" <[3]eisenha...@planet.nl>; "'Vihuelalist'"
   <[4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   > Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:36 PM
   > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
   >
   >
   >> Dear List,
   >>
   >> At this point I feel compelled to say something about "parall

[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Monica Hall]

That is all very useful!

Monica

- Original Message - 
From: "Martin Shepherd" 

To: "Vihuelalist" ; "Lute List"

Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:46 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt



Hi All,

Just to give a lutenist's perspective (and copying to the lute list as it
might be of interest there):

For much of the 16th century lutes were routinely strung with octaves on
courses 4-6.  Almost equally routinely, the upper octaves are ignored as
far as the counterpoint is concerned - lutenists making intabulations
(with a few notable exceptions) just intabulated the voice parts
literally.  The degree to which the upper octave can be heard depends on
many things, but perhaps most of all the skill of the player - mostly, you
want the octave to be audible but not too strong as it is really there to
"colour" the sound, adding some upper partials to the sound of the gut
basses.  The re-entrant tuning of the guitar is another kettle of fish

Just as an aside, Dowland's remarks on octaves in Varietie of Lute Lessons
(1610) have been widely misunderstood, even though what he writes is
perfectly clear.  He says that octaves were used more in England than
elsewhere, so there is some justification (and quite a bit of evidence
from the music itself) for using octaves even up to the 4th course in the
music of Cutting, John Johnson, Holborne, and anyone else active in the
1580s and 90s (except possibly Ferrabosco, since he probably brought his
Italian habits with him!).  Oh and of course Barley's book of 1597
specifies octaves on courses 4-6, and although he borrowed much of his
material from Le Roy (1568) he obviously thought it was still common
practice.

Best wishes,

Martin

Monica Hall wrote:

Yes - that is certainly the case.  However with baroque guitar music the
octaves are intermittent rather than continuous.   The other point is
that because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to hear the
upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the instrument has a
small compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap with the notes
on the upper courses.   You get the same effect with octave stringing on
the third course. It is not that one voice in the counterpoint is being
duplicated. This is rather  different from playing passages in octaves on
the piano or harpsichord - where there wont be the same overlapping.   On
the organ it is possible to play different parts on different manuals but
this raises quite different issues from the guitar.

The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too because one
of the arguments put forward in favour of unison stringing is that the
individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the high octave
strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave stringing even
for the earlier repertoire  but when they do the effect this has on the
music is very noticeable and quite difficult to adapt to.   And as far as
I am aware, they don't put the high octave string on the thumb side of a
course.

Monica


- Original Message - From: "michael.f...@notesinc.com"

To: "'Lex Eisenhardt'" ; "'Vihuelalist'"

Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:36 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt



Dear List,

At this point I feel compelled to say something about "parallel
octaves." If
parallel octaves are continuous, they cease to be "parallel octaves" and
become "orchestration" (e.g., organ or harpsichord stops). The parallel
octaves that get red marks in a theory or counterpoint class are between
two
adjacent consonances and are usually part of a 3- or 4-voice texture.
Sometimes they are "hidden octaves": the same thing but with an
intervening
note in one of the voices.

Sorry for the lecture.

Mike



Michael Fink
michael.f...@notesinc.com



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
Behalf
Of Lex Eisenhardt
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:15 PM
To: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt



  Today the
  vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this may not have
  been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th courses were
octave
  strung this might alter our perceptions of the music.


But to what extent? Early lutes had octaves, sometimes even on the 4th
course. Certain organ stops have octaves too.
The whole problem seems to be how you reconstruct the polyphony in your
mind.
The high octaves of the five-course guitar tend to be prominent indeed
(although it depends also on how you touch them, and the string tension,
and

even on how they relate in height to the bourdon, at the bridge) but I
happen to think that it's not a matter of measuring decibels in the
first
place.



  The baroque guitar has nothing in common with the classical guitar.


Some people seem to shiver at the idea...



  most of the time it is difficul

[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Chris Despopoulos]

   Random musings from a folksy perspective...  Not scholarship, just a
   love for the guitar in all its forms.
   Going back to good old Lead Belly (Huddie Ledbetter), who played the
   12-string guitar because he wanted a loud, piano-like sound -- not
   unlike the advice we get from Sanz about bordones -- I have to say that
   nobody really worries about doubled octaves, nor which octave to pick
   out when listening to him.  When Lead Belly played a walking bass, is
   was a BASS line, no doubt about it.  The octave adds PRESENCE, but the
   note is BASS.
   Were the strings so different in the 17th C. that one could have so
   much doubt about the *sound* or *register* of a note played on
   bordones?  If both strings were struck together equally (say in a
   trill, or rasgueado, or even playing a single "note"), could it be so
   ambiguous that the performer or listener would be in doubt as to the
   intention or placement of the note in the overall scheme?  I find that
   hard to believe.  And wouldn't the evolution from a double-strung to
   single-strung six-string guitar indicate that the *hearing* was in the
   bass, so dropping the higher octave was a natural step?  (Yes, I'm
   saying I hear bass in the bordon.  Is that a cultural artifact, or a
   physical norm?)  At least we can say guitar manuscripts evolved to ask
   for the added range in the bass.  But the logic of re-entrant tuning
   makes it unlikely to add on a redundant 6th course at E.  Without
   bordones taken as bass, why the 6th E?
   So that brought me to the next question...  We're talking about an age
   where exquisite details were the order of the day.  Why *wouldn't*
   performers adjust their playing to emphasize one octave or another?
   (And boy, did that stir up some responses!)  To me, the most compelling
   arguments against that were:
   * Nobody talks about doing that on the road to virtuosity.  Please
   correct me if I'm wrong.  But wouldn't you expect to find somebody
   exclaiming about the octave precision of such-and-such a performer?  Or
   wouldn't you expect a book to mention this as a requirement for
   delicate playing?  Where are these statements?
   * There's a certain pleasure to be had in letting the instrument speak
   for itself, and not trying to wring out of it more than comes fairly
   naturally.  Certainly, there are passages for which I would never be
   able to achieve such an exquisite, octave-selective touch -- so I can
   at least pat myself on the back and just not worry about it.  Whack the
   string, and let it ring.
   For me, the problem is fully summed up in Sanz's Fuga no 1.  Without
   bordones, I see no way to play it as written and still follow the
   melodic development.  With bordones, I see no way to avoid picking out
   specific octaves.  (I haven't tried it with French tuning yet -- please
   correct me if that's the solution...  But I doubt it's that simple.)
   This curious piece seems to defy every approach.  Some people suggested
   an octave on the G string -- But even then I believe you would have to
   choose octaves.  And Sanz never mentioned an octave on the G.  And
   maybe the fact is, Sanz used bordones on some pieces, and he picked out
   octaves.  What other solution is there, short of changing the
   fingering?  A side note...  If anybody can offer suggestions for this
   piece, I'm all ears.
   I've already gone on about grounding in the G as the lowest note.  For
   the majority of Sanz's pieces you can get a compelling result.  My
   experience as a raggedy old guitar player is that the right hand is far
   more important than the left...  One repeated note with an artful right
   hand is more interesting than millions of notes with a dead right
   hand.  In that regard, I have to resort to stringing and interpretation
   that yield compelling right-hand performances (to the degree that I'm
   able).  If I can't get it out of the piece with my current stringing, I
   don't play it.
   Honestly, I was compelled by Lex's video recordings.  I guess I'd like
   to hear equivalent recordings with the instrument strung all three
   ways.  Then I could perform some kind of laboratory analysis.  But
   prefer music outside of the lab.  I'm willing to bet musicians strung
   their instruments according to situation.  A dance-hall gig called for
   bordones...  The lady's salon maybe not.  I'm also willing to bet a
   good player managed to overcome his current stringing to play pieces
   that were "wrong" for that stringing.
   cud
 __

   From: Monica Hall 
   To: Monica Hall 
   Cc: Vihuelalist 
   Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 4:43:44 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
   This is an afterthought to my previous message...
   In the passage at bars 6-8 in the Gigue  which Lex plays in the video
   the first four notes are played on the 5th and 4th courses, the

[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Martin Shepherd]

Hi All,

Just to give a lutenist's perspective (and copying to the lute list as 
it might be of interest there):


For much of the 16th century lutes were routinely strung with octaves on 
courses 4-6.  Almost equally routinely, the upper octaves are ignored as 
far as the counterpoint is concerned - lutenists making intabulations 
(with a few notable exceptions) just intabulated the voice parts 
literally.  The degree to which the upper octave can be heard depends on 
many things, but perhaps most of all the skill of the player - mostly, 
you want the octave to be audible but not too strong as it is really 
there to "colour" the sound, adding some upper partials to the sound of 
the gut basses.  The re-entrant tuning of the guitar is another kettle 
of fish


Just as an aside, Dowland's remarks on octaves in Varietie of Lute 
Lessons (1610) have been widely misunderstood, even though what he 
writes is perfectly clear.  He says that octaves were used more in 
England than elsewhere, so there is some justification (and quite a bit 
of evidence from the music itself) for using octaves even up to the 4th 
course in the music of Cutting, John Johnson, Holborne, and anyone else 
active in the 1580s and 90s (except possibly Ferrabosco, since he 
probably brought his Italian habits with him!).  Oh and of course 
Barley's book of 1597 specifies octaves on courses 4-6, and although he 
borrowed much of his material from Le Roy (1568) he obviously thought it 
was still common practice.


Best wishes,

Martin

Monica Hall wrote:
Yes - that is certainly the case.  However with baroque guitar music 
the octaves are intermittent rather than continuous.   The other point 
is that because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to hear 
the upper notes rather than the lower ones and because the instrument 
has a small compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap with 
the notes on the upper courses.   You get the same effect with octave 
stringing on the third course. It is not that one voice in the 
counterpoint is being duplicated. This is rather  different from 
playing passages in octaves on the piano or harpsichord - where there 
wont be the same overlapping.   On the organ it is possible to play 
different parts on different manuals but this raises quite different 
issues from the guitar.


The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too because 
one of the arguments put forward in favour of unison stringing is that 
the individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the high 
octave strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave 
stringing even for the earlier repertoire  but when they do the effect 
this has on the music is very noticeable and quite difficult to adapt 
to.   And as far as I am aware, they don't put the high octave string 
on the thumb side of a course.


Monica


- Original Message - From: "michael.f...@notesinc.com" 

To: "'Lex Eisenhardt'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" 


Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:36 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt



Dear List,

At this point I feel compelled to say something about "parallel 
octaves." If

parallel octaves are continuous, they cease to be "parallel octaves" and
become "orchestration" (e.g., organ or harpsichord stops). The parallel
octaves that get red marks in a theory or counterpoint class are 
between two

adjacent consonances and are usually part of a 3- or 4-voice texture.
Sometimes they are "hidden octaves": the same thing but with an 
intervening

note in one of the voices.

Sorry for the lecture.

Mike



Michael Fink
michael.f...@notesinc.com



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
Behalf

Of Lex Eisenhardt
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:15 PM
To: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt



  Today the
  vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this may not have
  been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th courses were 
octave

  strung this might alter our perceptions of the music.


But to what extent? Early lutes had octaves, sometimes even on the 4th
course. Certain organ stops have octaves too.
The whole problem seems to be how you reconstruct the polyphony in your
mind.
The high octaves of the five-course guitar tend to be prominent indeed
(although it depends also on how you touch them, and the string 
tension, and


even on how they relate in height to the bourdon, at the bridge) but I
happen to think that it's not a matter of measuring decibels in the 
first

place.



  The baroque guitar has nothing in common with the classical guitar.


Some people seem to shiver at the idea...



  most of the time it is difficult to hear the bourdon on the fifth
  course because all it is doing is creating parallel octaves in which
  the upper part is more audible.


For some listeners there are para

[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Monica Hall]

This is an afterthought to my previous message...

In the passage at bars 6-8 in the Gigue  which Lex plays in the video the 
first four notes are played on the 5th and 4th courses, the next two are on 
the 3rd course, the next on the 4th course and the last on the 3rd course. 
The notes on the 4th and 5th courses will be in octaves but those on the 3rd 
in unison.   What Lex seems to be trying to do is to leave out the high 
octave strings to place the whole passage in the lower octave.  It doesn't 
seem to work very well.


Once you start to try and leave things out you run into a whole range of 
problems. How do you decide which octave the notes belong to?  My view is 
that if you are using octave stringing you should accept anomalies like this 
as part of the deal.


Monica




- Original Message - 
From: "Monica Hall" 

To: "michael.f...@notesinc.com" 
Cc: "Vihuelalist" 
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 9:10 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt


Yes - that is certainly the case.  However with baroque guitar music the 
octaves are intermittent rather than continuous.   The other point is that 
because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to hear the upper 
notes rather than the lower ones and because the instrument has a small 
compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap with the notes on the 
upper courses.   You get the same effect with octave stringing on the 
third course. It is not that one voice in the counterpoint is being 
duplicated. This is rather  different from playing passages in octaves on 
the piano or harpsichord - where there wont be the same overlapping.   On 
the organ it is possible to play different parts on different manuals but 
this raises quite different issues from the guitar.


The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too because one 
of the arguments put forward in favour of unison stringing is that the 
individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the high octave 
strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave stringing even for 
the earlier repertoire  but when they do the effect this has on the music 
is very noticeable and quite difficult to adapt to.   And as far as I am 
aware, they don't put the high octave string on the thumb side of a 
course.


Monica


- Original Message - 
From: "michael.f...@notesinc.com" 
To: "'Lex Eisenhardt'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" 


Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:36 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt



Dear List,

At this point I feel compelled to say something about "parallel octaves." 
If

parallel octaves are continuous, they cease to be "parallel octaves" and
become "orchestration" (e.g., organ or harpsichord stops). The parallel
octaves that get red marks in a theory or counterpoint class are between 
two

adjacent consonances and are usually part of a 3- or 4-voice texture.
Sometimes they are "hidden octaves": the same thing but with an 
intervening

note in one of the voices.

Sorry for the lecture.

Mike



Michael Fink
michael.f...@notesinc.com



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
Behalf

Of Lex Eisenhardt
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:15 PM
To: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt



  Today the
  vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this may not have
  been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th courses were octave
  strung this might alter our perceptions of the music.


But to what extent? Early lutes had octaves, sometimes even on the 4th
course. Certain organ stops have octaves too.
The whole problem seems to be how you reconstruct the polyphony in your
mind.
The high octaves of the five-course guitar tend to be prominent indeed
(although it depends also on how you touch them, and the string tension, 
and


even on how they relate in height to the bourdon, at the bridge) but I
happen to think that it's not a matter of measuring decibels in the first
place.



  The baroque guitar has nothing in common with the classical guitar.


Some people seem to shiver at the idea...



  most of the time it is difficult to hear the bourdon on the fifth
  course because all it is doing is creating parallel octaves in which
  the upper part is more audible.


For some listeners there are parallel octaves, for others the bass 
becomes
brighter and stronger, as a result of the blending of the overtones of 
the

two strings, like on the lute or the organ (the latter has of course no
strings).



  In the Sarabande the bass line falls a
  7th at the cadence following the double bar - this big chord I comes
  out of nowhere!


I'm afraid that's what big chords do. It is guitar music after all, in 
this

funny mixed battuto-pizzicato style.



  Paradoxically the bourdon on the fourth often sounds
  to me more prominent especially in 

[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

[Monica Hall]

Yes - that is certainly the case.  However with baroque guitar music the 
octaves are intermittent rather than continuous.   The other point is that 
because of the way that the guitar is strung one tends to hear the upper 
notes rather than the lower ones and because the instrument has a small 
compass the upper notes on the lower courses overlap with the notes on the 
upper courses.   You get the same effect with octave stringing on the third 
course. It is not that one voice in the counterpoint is being duplicated. 
This is rather  different from playing passages in octaves on the piano or 
harpsichord - where there wont be the same overlapping.   On the organ it is 
possible to play different parts on different manuals but this raises quite 
different issues from the guitar.


The point I was making about the vihuela is relevant here too because one of 
the arguments put forward in favour of unison stringing is that the 
individual contrapuntal lines will be compromised by the high octave 
strings. In my experience not many lutenists use octave stringing even for 
the earlier repertoire  but when they do the effect this has on the music is 
very noticeable and quite difficult to adapt to.   And as far as I am aware, 
they don't put the high octave string on the thumb side of a course.


Monica


- Original Message - 
From: "michael.f...@notesinc.com" 
To: "'Lex Eisenhardt'" ; "'Vihuelalist'" 


Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 11:36 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt



Dear List,

At this point I feel compelled to say something about "parallel octaves." 
If

parallel octaves are continuous, they cease to be "parallel octaves" and
become "orchestration" (e.g., organ or harpsichord stops). The parallel
octaves that get red marks in a theory or counterpoint class are between 
two

adjacent consonances and are usually part of a 3- or 4-voice texture.
Sometimes they are "hidden octaves": the same thing but with an 
intervening

note in one of the voices.

Sorry for the lecture.

Mike



Michael Fink
michael.f...@notesinc.com



-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On 
Behalf

Of Lex Eisenhardt
Sent: Monday, August 30, 2010 1:15 PM
To: Vihuelalist
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt



  Today the
  vihuela is usually tuned in unison throughout but this may not have
  been so in the 16^th century. If the 5^th and 6^th courses were octave
  strung this might alter our perceptions of the music.


But to what extent? Early lutes had octaves, sometimes even on the 4th
course. Certain organ stops have octaves too.
The whole problem seems to be how you reconstruct the polyphony in your
mind.
The high octaves of the five-course guitar tend to be prominent indeed
(although it depends also on how you touch them, and the string tension, 
and


even on how they relate in height to the bourdon, at the bridge) but I
happen to think that it's not a matter of measuring decibels in the first
place.



  The baroque guitar has nothing in common with the classical guitar.


Some people seem to shiver at the idea...



  most of the time it is difficult to hear the bourdon on the fifth
  course because all it is doing is creating parallel octaves in which
  the upper part is more audible.


For some listeners there are parallel octaves, for others the bass becomes
brighter and stronger, as a result of the blending of the overtones of the
two strings, like on the lute or the organ (the latter has of course no
strings).



  In the Sarabande the bass line falls a
  7th at the cadence following the double bar - this big chord I comes
  out of nowhere!


I'm afraid that's what big chords do. It is guitar music after all, in 
this

funny mixed battuto-pizzicato style.



  Paradoxically the bourdon on the fourth often sounds
  to me more prominent especially in odd places in the campanellas.


Maybe it's not a paradox, since there are more notes on the 4th course
involved. It seems to be generally accepted that the bourdon on the 4th
course is needed with Bartolotti, so this happens when you play what the
tablature says.
In all 5 clips there are only 2 campanela runs, by the way, they are both 
in


the prelude. The section high up the neck in the courante, for instance,
could be misleading, it is just a 'regular' texture.



  But neither is there any evidence that Italians thought of the guitar
  as having seven strings rather than five and that used  the separate
  strings of the fourth and fifth courses independently as a matter of
  course.


Again, it is not so much a matter of using the separate strings
independently, but using your ears (and therefore also your hands) in a 
more


varied way. Or should we believe that the tablature obliges you to always
play the two strings (the octave and the bourdon) in perfect balance? 
(This

would then of co