date:20100901

However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate 
solo music like that of Bartolotti


Sanz's solo music is by far not as elaborate as Bartolotti's. Most of Sanz's 
pieces in the 'modern style' (not the Italianate passacalles) are charming 
little tunes exclusively to be played punteado. Nothing like the polyphony 
or the rich battuto-pizzicato textures of a Bartolotti. For Sanz's folk 
pieces re-entrant tuning seems ok. Bartolott's name does not appear on the 
summary of guitar composers in Sanz's introduction, and he may not have been 
familiar with this music.




are all to do with the kind of strings available.


Plain gut strings were used for the bass on most plucked instruments. It 
seems odd to suppose that the (supposed inferior) quality of bourdon strings 
has been a reason to move over to re-entrant stringing on the guitar.


For a contrasting view, perhaps I may recommend my article 'Bourdons as 
usual', in the last issue of  'The Lute' (47), obtainable from The Lute 
Society. There you'll find Monica's responses as well. There are no 
electronic versions available, I'm afraid.



When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took 
nearly
150 years before this development took place.   The most likely 
explanation
is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing  and because 
re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant

tuning.


The most practical reason to not use a 6 string/course instrument is perhaps 
chord strumming.
The first seven chords of guitar alfabeto, plus the I, O and P chords, all 
need no more than three fingers, while frequent harmonies (like E, A or 
F-both major and minor) are impossible to play without barré's on a 
six-course instrument tuned in G, at least if we wish to include all 
courses. It raises the problem of strumming over a limited number of 
strings, which introduces theoretical difficulties for the player.


With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the 
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his 
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance 
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only 
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, 
which is below the other voices. This raises the question if his remark 
about the D minor chord has anything to do with basso continuo.
Besides, most bass instruments such as the bass viol and the theorbo can 
produce the D below the A (the fifth course bourdon) of the guitar. When 
playing together with a strummed guitar with bourdons, which is not a 
situation described by Sanz (nor by any other writer), the fundamental bass 
can still be taken care of on the bass line instrument.


Lex 





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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

Hello Lex,

With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the 
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his 
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance 
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only 
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, 
which is below the other voices. This raises the question if his remark 
about the D minor chord has anything to do with basso continuo.

In that case, do you have any ideas on what Sanz is on about regarding the D 
minor with of without bourdons? 

On a totally unrelated note, after seeing the discussion here sparked by your 
Youtube videos, I managed to get your Bartolotti CD (The suites from the second 
book) and I am blown away by both the music and the performance.

Regards 
Peter



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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance



With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the 
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his 
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance 
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only 
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, 

I just re-read the Documentos y advertencia generales, Sanz definitely shows 
BOTH strumming and plucked textures
in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying:

tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que 
quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala con 
las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:

All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is 
rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters; the 
other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers.

So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility for 
Sanz.

Peter




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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

I forgot to add that, given that rule 1 says in this one [the punteado] the 
thumb strikes the number that corresponds to the base, the plucked versions of 
the examples definitely seem to call for bourdons on 4 and 5, it seems somewhat 
unlikely that Sanz did not have bourdones in mind also for the strummed 
versions without mentioning that very important difference.



- Original Message -
From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com
To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010 11:58:25 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance



With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the 
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his 
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance 
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only 
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, 

I just re-read the Documentos y advertencia generales, Sanz definitely shows 
BOTH strumming and plucked textures
in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying:

tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que 
quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala con 
las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:

All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is 
rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters; the 
other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers.

So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility for 
Sanz.

Peter




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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


Thank you for your kind words, Peter.
Yes, you are right of course. The very first example gives the alfabeto 
chords and the bass notes to which they belong. We find similar instructions 
in almost every tutor from the time. But after having done that Sanz gives 
many examples in staff and tablature for which alfabeto would fall short. He 
makes a distinction between the rasgueado method and the far more elaborate 
punteado. What I didn't find is any reference to playing (completely) 
rasgueado/alfabeto together with a bass instrument. Considering the nature 
of alfabeto, a system with only triadic harmonies, this seems not all too 
obvious.

Lex


- Original Message - 
From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com

To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance





With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position,


I just re-read the Documentos y advertencia generales, Sanz definitely 
shows BOTH strumming and plucked textures

in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying:

tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que 
quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala 
con las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:


All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is 
rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters; 
the other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers.


So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility 
for Sanz.


Peter





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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

Lex,

The more I think about it I tend to agree that it is not obvious that Sanz' 
comment about the D minor chord in 4/6 refers to basso continuo. Which brings 
me back to question that has been nagging me for a while, what on earth is Sanz 
on about?? Any ideas?

Peter 

- Original Message -
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
To: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010 12:16:59 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance

Thank you for your kind words, Peter.
Yes, you are right of course. The very first example gives the alfabeto 
chords and the bass notes to which they belong. We find similar instructions 
in almost every tutor from the time. But after having done that Sanz gives 
many examples in staff and tablature for which alfabeto would fall short. He 
makes a distinction between the rasgueado method and the far more elaborate 
punteado. What I didn't find is any reference to playing (completely) 
rasgueado/alfabeto together with a bass instrument. Considering the nature 
of alfabeto, a system with only triadic harmonies, this seems not all too 
obvious.
Lex


- Original Message - 
From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com
To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance




With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position,

I just re-read the Documentos y advertencia generales, Sanz definitely 
shows BOTH strumming and plucked textures
in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying:

tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que 
quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala 
con las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:

All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is 
rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters; 
the other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers.

So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility 
for Sanz.

Peter






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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

2010-09-01 Thread Chris Despopoulos

   I like thinking about the evolution from 4 to 6 strings.  I'm sure we
   can only speculate, unless there are explicit statements made at the
   time that we can uses as guides.  Monica and Lex, you both use words
   like perhaps and likely...
   I'm not convinced that the requirement of barre chords is an
   overarching impediment.  The 5-course alfabeto includes barres, and
   Sanz (for all his simplicity) often calls for them.  Also, 12-string
   guitars exist -- modern ones as well as those reaching back into
   Mexico's past -- with music that includes barre's.  (I don't agree with
   excluding the living relatives from the discussion.)  If the musical
   requirements of a piece ask for more strings, we have many and
   fantastic examples of builders adding on strings to meet the
   requirements...  Or even adding on another instrument joined at the
   hip.  I don't see an argument for a physical impediment to 6-course
   instruments, either in construction, strings, or playing capabilities.
   I see the impediment as conceptual, and not in any pejorative sense.
   There's a practical tension between range and voicing that is captured
   in this issue.  The most difficult intervals to play on the modern
   guitar are close intervals.  Scordaturae exist to address this issue
   because these voicings can be essential to a certain mood or
   expression.  Re-entrant tuning is one way to address this issue.  But
   with re-entrance, you sacrifice range on the scale.  I see this as a
   practical issue, not a historical one.  The simple fact is, I can play
   and compose music on a guitar tuned in the Sanz style that I cannot
   play or compose on a modern guitar -- and vis versa.  The issue is
   historical to the extent that practice emphasized different things at
   different times.  But it's the practice that interests me.
   I also believe (perhaps it is likely) that with the tuning scheme
   we have for the guitar, 5 courses is the limit for re-entrant tuning.
   Any more becomes redundant -- you have to worry about it when
   strumming, but it doesn't add anything new.  So as long as players
   think in terms of re-entrant tuning, they will not have any interest in
   a 6-course instrument.  That interest can only arise when they think in
   terms of extending the range of the instrument, and that extension is
   necessarily either up or down in pitch.  It so happens for the guitar
   it was down.  But to me it indicates that at some point the practice
   shifted from using the close intervals of re-entrant tuning to using
   the extended range of bass strings.  And I'm sure that shift occurred
   before guitars became single-strung.  I'm also sure it did not occur
   over night.
   In any event, you have to ask whether a bordon means bass, or just
   loud.  Or does it mean you get to choose?  When talking about a
   transition in practice and construction, I'm sure you can argue for
   whichever you feel is most appropriate for the situation.  You could
   use a timeline to assign probability to one approach or another.  But
   that is a false friend, because even Darwin would tell you that
   innovation isn't necessarily a smooth continuum.  We can use musical
   theory of the era, but that was also in transition -- I just learned
   about a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi that was not unlike
   something you'd see on this forum.  It was all about  transitions in
   taste, theory, and composition.  What other guides do we have?
   Physically, we're pretty much the same as people of the era, and our
   instruments are fairly close replicas.  We can use practical
   limitations to guide us as well.  In other words, what can you do
   convincingly on the instrument?
   I will add that for process and flow studies, the transitions are very
   interesting.  The boundary between still and boiling water, the eddies
   and currents that arise before a flow becomes turbulent, the explosion
   of forms when bicycles were first invented, or during the Cambrian
   explosion of life forms...
   By the way, I see no incompatibility in the 150 years it took for a
   6-course instrument to become the norm.  How long did it take for 5
   course guitars to come on the scene?  Also, I believe there are
   contemporary examples of 4, 5, and 6 course guitar-like instruments --
   their popularity rests on the popularity of their reportoir at least as
   much as the problems or advantages of playing them.  The 4-course
   guitar is in use today in Portugal, the Pacific, and in lots of ukulele
   clubs sprinkled across the US.  I think Mexico has an example, and even
   uses the old bridge style.  Maybe these are decadant relative of the
   original 4-course guitar, but my point is, we haven't killed it yet...
   the evolution is still happening many centuries later.  So 150 years
   don't put me off in a terrible way.
   cud
 __

When

[VIHUELA] Re: Euonimo and Aristonus

Many thanks to all of you who replied.   I couldn't quite see how the 
grasshopper could produce a string!   But the noise that it makes might 
enhance many a performance!


Monica

- Original Message - 
From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com

To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Euonimo and Aristonus


I found an English translation of Strabo's, 6.1.9:


The Halex River, which marks the boundary between the Rhegian and the 
Locrian territories, passes out through a deep ravine; and a peculiar thing 
happens there in connection with the grasshoppers, that although those on 
the Locrian bank sing, the others remain mute. As for the cause of this, it 
is conjectured that on the latter side the region is so densely shaded that 
the grasshoppers, being wet with dew, cannot expand their membranes, whereas 
those on the sunny side have dry and horn-like membranes and therefore can 
easily produce their song. And people used to show in Locri a statue of 
Eunomus, the cithara-bard, with a locust seated on the cithara. Timaeus says 
that Eunomus and Ariston of Rhegium were once contesting with each other at 
the Pythian games and fell to quarrelling about the casting of the lots;so 
Ariston begged the Delphians to cooperate with him, for the reason that his 
ancestors belonged to the god and that the colony had been sent forth from 
there;and although Eunomus said that the Rhegini had absolutely no right 
even to participate in the vocal contests, since in their country even the 
grasshoppers, the sweetest-voiced of all creatures, were mute, Ariston was 
none the less held in favour and hoped for the victory; and yet Eunomus 
gained the victory and set up the aforesaid image in his native land, 
because during the contest, when one of the chords broke, a grasshopper lit 
on his cithara and supplied the missing sound. The interior above these 
cities is held by the Brettii; here is the city Mamertium, and also the 
forest that produces the best pitch, the Brettian. This forest is called 
Sila, is both well wooded and well watered, and is seven hundred stadia in 
length.


Peter

- Original Message -
From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com
To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 11:43:07 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Euonimo and Aristonus

It's from Strabo's Geographika, Strabo in turn attributes the story to 
Timaeos. I only have a German translation, a websearch for Eunomos will 
probably yield what you are looking for.


Regards
Peter

- Original Message -
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 10:57:45 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Euonimo and Aristonus

  Is there anyone familiar with Classical litereature who know of the
  story of Euonimo.   Apparently he was competing with Ariston playing
  the cithara and broke a string (it happens to the best of us).  The
  Gods (all of them?) sent a Cicada (presumably a sort of silkworm) which
  produced such a wonderful string that he won the competition and a
  statue was erected to him.



  Does anyone know where the story comes from?



  Regards



  Monica

  --


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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


There are a couple of points here.

First of all, Sanz's music may be less complex than Bartolotti's, although I 
would question this assumption.   But the main point is that his book is 
intended as an instruction book with at least some material for beginners.


The other point is that all the Italian (and Spanish) works to which Sanz 
refers all include some information on how to accompany a bass line and it 
is this context that he mentions them.   He is saying is that none of them 
include as detailed a discussion of the subject as he does.


Bartolotti does not include any instructions on how to accompany in either 
of his books so there is no reason to mention him.


Monica

- Original Message - 
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl

To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 9:18 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance


However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate 
solo music like that of Bartolotti


Sanz's solo music is by far not as elaborate as Bartolotti's. Most of 
Sanz's pieces in the 'modern style' (not the Italianate passacalles) are 
charming little tunes exclusively to be played punteado. Nothing like the 
polyphony or the rich battuto-pizzicato textures of a Bartolotti. For 
Sanz's folk pieces re-entrant tuning seems ok. Bartolott's name does not 
appear on the summary of guitar composers in Sanz's introduction, and he 
may not have been familiar with this music.




are all to do with the kind of strings available.


Plain gut strings were used for the bass on most plucked instruments. It 
seems odd to suppose that the (supposed inferior) quality of bourdon 
strings has been a reason to move over to re-entrant stringing on the 
guitar.


For a contrasting view, perhaps I may recommend my article 'Bourdons as 
usual', in the last issue of  'The Lute' (47), obtainable from The Lute 
Society. There you'll find Monica's responses as well. There are no 
electronic versions available, I'm afraid.



When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took 
nearly
150 years before this development took place.   The most likely 
explanation
is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing  and because 
re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant

tuning.


The most practical reason to not use a 6 string/course instrument is 
perhaps chord strumming.
The first seven chords of guitar alfabeto, plus the I, O and P chords, all 
need no more than three fingers, while frequent harmonies (like E, A or 
F-both major and minor) are impossible to play without barré's on a 
six-course instrument tuned in G, at least if we wish to include all 
courses. It raises the problem of strumming over a limited number of 
strings, which introduces theoretical difficulties for the player.


With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the 
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his 
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance 
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only 
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, 
which is below the other voices. This raises the question if his remark 
about the D minor chord has anything to do with basso continuo.
Besides, most bass instruments such as the bass viol and the theorbo can 
produce the D below the A (the fifth course bourdon) of the guitar. When 
playing together with a strummed guitar with bourdons, which is not a 
situation described by Sanz (nor by any other writer), the fundamental 
bass can still be taken care of on the bass line instrument.


Lex



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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

Apart from the general information he provides, I would doubt if the actual 
works and the basso continuo are for beginners. Bartolotti has also given 
information for beginners (!) but hasn't included any instructions for 
accompanying. Neither has Pellegrini. Of Lorenzo Fardino, also on the list, 
we just don't know.


Lex


- Original Message - 
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk

To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance



There are a couple of points here.

First of all, Sanz's music may be less complex than Bartolotti's, although 
I would question this assumption.   But the main point is that his book is 
intended as an instruction book with at least some material for beginners.


The other point is that all the Italian (and Spanish) works to which Sanz 
refers all include some information on how to accompany a bass line and it 
is this context that he mentions them.   He is saying is that none of them 
include as detailed a discussion of the subject as he does.


Bartolotti does not include any instructions on how to accompany in either 
of his books so there is no reason to mention him.


Monica






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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

[Perhaps] we should have a closer look at the early use, 1600 - 1620, of 
the five-course guitar and the choice of alfabeto chords that we find there. 
The number of barre's is very limited, and there seems to be a clear 
preference for 'open' chords, including unfingered strings. The other point 
I mentioned is the theoretical complication of leaving out the strings that 
do not belong to the chord (like for instance the sixth string in a D 
chord), for which alfabeto has no sign. Another problem is the very frequent 
G minor chord, which would be far more difficult to make than it is now 
(letter O).
Of course, in a later stage, when the guitar had reached great popularity, 
the barre became part of the guitar technique.

Lex


- Original Message - 
From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com

To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:48 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance




  I like thinking about the evolution from 4 to 6 strings.  I'm sure we
  can only speculate, unless there are explicit statements made at the
  time that we can uses as guides.  Monica and Lex, you both use words
  like perhaps and likely...
  I'm not convinced that the requirement of barre chords is an
  overarching impediment.  The 5-course alfabeto includes barres, and
  Sanz (for all his simplicity) often calls for them.  Also, 12-string
  guitars exist -- modern ones as well as those reaching back into
  Mexico's past -- with music that includes barre's.  (I don't agree with
  excluding the living relatives from the discussion.)  If the musical
  requirements of a piece ask for more strings, we have many and
  fantastic examples of builders adding on strings to meet the
  requirements...  Or even adding on another instrument joined at the
  hip.  I don't see an argument for a physical impediment to 6-course
  instruments, either in construction, strings, or playing capabilities.
  I see the impediment as conceptual, and not in any pejorative sense.
  There's a practical tension between range and voicing that is captured
  in this issue.  The most difficult intervals to play on the modern
  guitar are close intervals.  Scordaturae exist to address this issue
  because these voicings can be essential to a certain mood or
  expression.  Re-entrant tuning is one way to address this issue.  But
  with re-entrance, you sacrifice range on the scale.  I see this as a
  practical issue, not a historical one.  The simple fact is, I can play
  and compose music on a guitar tuned in the Sanz style that I cannot
  play or compose on a modern guitar -- and vis versa.  The issue is
  historical to the extent that practice emphasized different things at
  different times.  But it's the practice that interests me.
  I also believe (perhaps it is likely) that with the tuning scheme
  we have for the guitar, 5 courses is the limit for re-entrant tuning.
  Any more becomes redundant -- you have to worry about it when
  strumming, but it doesn't add anything new.  So as long as players
  think in terms of re-entrant tuning, they will not have any interest in
  a 6-course instrument.  That interest can only arise when they think in
  terms of extending the range of the instrument, and that extension is
  necessarily either up or down in pitch.  It so happens for the guitar
  it was down.  But to me it indicates that at some point the practice
  shifted from using the close intervals of re-entrant tuning to using
  the extended range of bass strings.  And I'm sure that shift occurred
  before guitars became single-strung.  I'm also sure it did not occur
  over night.
  In any event, you have to ask whether a bordon means bass, or just
  loud.  Or does it mean you get to choose?  When talking about a
  transition in practice and construction, I'm sure you can argue for
  whichever you feel is most appropriate for the situation.  You could
  use a timeline to assign probability to one approach or another.  But
  that is a false friend, because even Darwin would tell you that
  innovation isn't necessarily a smooth continuum.  We can use musical
  theory of the era, but that was also in transition -- I just learned
  about a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi that was not unlike
  something you'd see on this forum.  It was all about  transitions in
  taste, theory, and composition.  What other guides do we have?
  Physically, we're pretty much the same as people of the era, and our
  instruments are fairly close replicas.  We can use practical
  limitations to guide us as well.  In other words, what can you do
  convincingly on the instrument?
  I will add that for process and flow studies, the transitions are very
  interesting.  The boundary between still and boiling water, the eddies
  and currents that arise before a flow becomes turbulent, the explosion
  of forms when bicycles were first invented, or during the Cambrian
  explosion of life forms...
  By the way, I see

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance




Considering the nature of alfabeto, a system with only triadic harmonies,
this seems not all too obvious.


I don't think this is as obvious as you might think.   Triadic harmony is 
much more flexible that you seem to think.


There is an interesting example in Alex Dean's dissertation which I can't 
quite put my finger on right now where he show how  you can accompany the 
minor 7th on the second degree of the scale with a basic triad and in fact 
he says that Nigel North does just that. (I hope I have remembered it 
right).


The point about triadic harmony is that it includes only the basic notes. 
But you can add to this e.g. adding  7ths to a chord does not alter its 
basic notes.  And you can use a basic triad to accompany a 7th in the bass.


Another thing is the 4-3 suspension.   If the alfabeto books are anything to 
go on it was regarded as acceptable to play a basic triad when the voice 
part has the 4-3 bit and it is quite effective.   It may indeed explain why 
Corbetta (and Bartolotti and Foscarini) is fond of doing this.  I know that 
Milanuzzi explains how to do it properly and of course more experienced 
players would have been able to adapt the chords by including the 4th or the 
7th and to create a mixed accompaniment.


The fact that Sanz doesn't explicitly describe  everything doesn't mean that 
he intended it to be done in the simplest possible way.   If you read 
everything that Doisi de Velasco says it is obvious that the acompaniment 
may be strummed but you can combine the two.


Also it is not necessary to reproduce the chords or the accompaniment in the 
same inversions as the bass part indicates.   Just one example from Granata 
1659 p.159.the 4th bar of the  top line  -  he has put the 4-3 suspension on 
the 5th course and there is nothing wrong with that.


You seem to have an exraordinary narrow pedantic approach to most things 
which seems to reflect the environment in which you work rather than what 
players really did or do in practice.


M




- Original Message - 
From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com

To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance





With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position,


I just re-read the Documentos y advertencia generales, Sanz definitely
shows BOTH strumming and plucked textures
in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying:

tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que
quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala
con las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:

All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is
rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters;
the other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers.

So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility
for Sanz.

Peter





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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

2010-09-01 Thread Chris Despopoulos

   [It's likely] I would not argue that point at all.  I'd say it
   indicates that there was not a physical limitation of the hand in
   taking on a more varied repertoire. It's the later stage I'm talking
   about, in comparison to the earlier stage.  The theoretical
   difficulties were overcome, and the barre was accepted technique.  Sanz
   includes it liberally in his laberinto.  Likewise, if the advantage of
   6 strings had been sufficiently recognized at the time, I believe any
   theoretical impediments would have been overcome.  Well, indeed that
   did happen -- it just took a long time, and it seems to have coincided
   with (or at least reinforced) hearing the bass in the 4, 5, and 6th
   courses.
   cud
 __

   From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
   To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 7:35:11 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   [Perhaps] we should have a closer look at the early use, 1600 - 1620,
   of the five-course guitar and the choice of alfabeto chords that we
   find there. The number of barre's is very limited, and there seems to
   be a clear preference for 'open' chords, including unfingered strings.
   The other point I mentioned is the theoretical complication of leaving
   out the strings that do not belong to the chord (like for instance the
   sixth string in a D chord), for which alfabeto has no sign. Another
   problem is the very frequent G minor chord, which would be far more
   difficult to make than it is now (letter O).
   Of course, in a later stage, when the guitar had reached great
   popularity, the barre became part of the guitar technique.
   Lex
   - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos
   [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
   To: Vihuelalist [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:48 PM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   
 I like thinking about the evolution from 4 to 6 strings.  I'm sure
   we
 can only speculate, unless there are explicit statements made at the
 time that we can uses as guides.  Monica and Lex, you both use words
 like perhaps and likely...
 I'm not convinced that the requirement of barre chords is an
 overarching impediment.  The 5-course alfabeto includes barres, and
 Sanz (for all his simplicity) often calls for them.  Also, 12-string
 guitars exist -- modern ones as well as those reaching back into
 Mexico's past -- with music that includes barre's.  (I don't agree
   with
 excluding the living relatives from the discussion.)  If the musical
 requirements of a piece ask for more strings, we have many and
 fantastic examples of builders adding on strings to meet the
 requirements...  Or even adding on another instrument joined at the
 hip.  I don't see an argument for a physical impediment to 6-course
 instruments, either in construction, strings, or playing
   capabilities.
 I see the impediment as conceptual, and not in any pejorative sense.
 There's a practical tension between range and voicing that is
   captured
 in this issue.  The most difficult intervals to play on the modern
 guitar are close intervals.  Scordaturae exist to address this issue
 because these voicings can be essential to a certain mood or
 expression.  Re-entrant tuning is one way to address this issue.
   But
 with re-entrance, you sacrifice range on the scale.  I see this as a
 practical issue, not a historical one.  The simple fact is, I can
   play
 and compose music on a guitar tuned in the Sanz style that I cannot
 play or compose on a modern guitar -- and vis versa.  The issue is
 historical to the extent that practice emphasized different things
   at
 different times.  But it's the practice that interests me.
 I also believe (perhaps it is likely) that with the tuning
   scheme
 we have for the guitar, 5 courses is the limit for re-entrant
   tuning.
 Any more becomes redundant -- you have to worry about it when
 strumming, but it doesn't add anything new.  So as long as players
 think in terms of re-entrant tuning, they will not have any interest
   in
 a 6-course instrument.  That interest can only arise when they think
   in
 terms of extending the range of the instrument, and that extension
   is
 necessarily either up or down in pitch.  It so happens for the
   guitar
 it was down.  But to me it indicates that at some point the practice
 shifted from using the close intervals of re-entrant tuning to using
 the extended range of bass strings.  And I'm sure that shift
   occurred
 before guitars became single-strung.  I'm also sure it did not occur
 over night.
 In any event, you have to ask whether a bordon means bass, or just
 loud.  Or does it mean you get to choose?  When talking about a

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

Yes, Alexander Dean's dissertation is a very good read. You can download it
here:
https://urresearch.rochester.edu/institutionalPublicationPublicView.action;jsessionid=FEA663FAC81002C4A93F225435EB74D8?institutionalItemVersionId=10524

As I understand it, certain chords (dimished 7th, for instance) cannot be
produced within the frame of alfabeto. These chords were replaced by
alfabeto chords of another degree (ii - I instead of the vii dim -I, or the
L chord instead of a E flat major, sorry for being so technical). Thus,
playing together with an instrumentalist who performs literally from the
bass this would lead to harmonic clashes. Dean goes so far to say that these
clashes maybe were sought to get a richer pre-cadential tension. I think we
can't tell. Perhaps they were just alternatives. You'll find these at p.240.

The point about triadic harmony is that it includes only the basic notes.
But you can add to this e.g. adding 7ths to a chord does not alter its
basic notes. And you can use a basic triad to accompany a 7th in the
bass.

I'm quite sure I said that for better understanding we should we should look
at the _early_ stage (so, not at Valdambrini or Corbetta).
Of course you can add whatever you like. The question is, however, who did
what. And when. The basis of early alfabeto, as it has come to us in songs
and dances from 1600 - 1620, is predominantly very stereotype. This is to
say that [probably] alfabeto and cifras were [at least] originally used to
give a hand for remembering the chords to your tune. This was most likely
also its function in the printed villanelle repertoire from Italy. Feel free
to speculate about fantastic harmonic experiments, but it would be helpful
to know the sources. We should indeed use our imagination, but how far
should that go?
I may bring to mind my 'dissonance' article (also in The Lute 47) in which I
give the example of the manuscript of Pedruil (c.1614), with all kinds of
extra notes added.

The fact that Sanz doesn't explicitly describe everything doesn't mean
that he intended it to be done in the simplest possible way. If you read
everything that Doisi de Velasco says it is obvious that the acompaniment
may be strummed but you can combine the two.

again, both are much later

You seem to have an exraordinary narrow pedantic approach to most things
which seems to reflect the environment in which you work rather than what
players really did or do in practice.

[perhaps] I'd better ignore that

Lex

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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

What we don't know [but can think of nevertheless], is how many of the 24 
were used in practice. The _early_  sources we have (Of cifras: Briceno, for 
instance. Of alfabeto: many) generally make use of just a limited selection, 
mainly in first position.


Lex


- Original Message - 
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk

To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:38 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


The barre certainly was an integral part of guitar technique in Spain 
where it all began.   Amat's table of chords includes the whole 24, many 
of which are played with a barre.


Also his table in Chapter 8 does enable you to work out the correct chords 
to strum for the most usual situations although it doesn't accommodate 
more complex chromatic harmony.


Monica







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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

[perhaps] for eclectic guitar?
L

- Original Message - 
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt 
eisenha...@planet.nl

Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 3:27 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

  I wouldn't have considered Valdambrini 1646/47 a late source and he
  certainly peppers many pieces with movable alfabeto shapes in all
  positions up to and including thos requiring a 'barre' on the 9th
  fret.  Without a detailed search I noted the following alfabeto shapes
  used used in this high position: M N P S H K G

  In his table to Book 2 (p 39) he even shows G H M S with a 'barre' on
  the 10th and 11the fret! But I couldn't see he used higher than the 9th
  in his pieces.

  MH

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[VIHUELA] Re: Unisons in Italy was Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt

2010-09-01 Thread Martin Shepherd

Thanks, Monica.  So as far as the vihuela is concerned, we have evidence 
for a unison 4th course but no evidence at all about the 5th and 6th 
courses?


The surviving music for vihuela dates from a time when the lute was 
commonly strung in octaves on courses 4-6, and from a string technology 
point of view there is therefore every reason to suppose that octaves 
were required.  It seems to me that modern wound strings have made it 
too easy for us to assume that unisons were the norm for the vihuela.  
As I said, the presence of octaves on the lute seems to have been no 
barrier for those addicted to polyphonic intabulations, so the idea that 
the vihuela repertoire is dominated by such pieces is no argument in 
favour of unisons either.


Best wishes,

Martin

Monica Hall wrote:
The original article arguing for octave stringing was by Bill Hearn in 
LSA Quarterly, Aug. 1994.   There was some correspondence between him 
and Donald Gill in LSA Quarterly Feb 1995, and May 1996.


The other piece of evidence for unison stringing is from Bermudo who 
mentions that the 4-course guitar has octaves stringing in the 4th 
course like the vihuela de Flandres and by inference, he suggests 
that the vihuela did not.


Monica


- Original Message - From: Martin Shepherd 
mar...@luteshop.co.uk

To: Lute List l...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Vihuelalist
vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 7:37 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Unisons in Italy was Re: Guitar stringing was Re:
Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt



The main piece of evidence for unison stringing on the lute in late 16th
century Italy is the statement (where? can anyone help?  I think it's an
English source) that Fabrizio Dentice introduced it.  And does Vincenzo
Galilei mention it?  For what it's worth, Caravaggio's paintings seem to
show unisons.

The assumption of unison stringing for the vihuela, on the other hand,
does seem to be just that (John Ward's 1955 PhD thesis), the only solid
piece of evidence being Pisador's tuning instructions which imply a 
unison
4th course.  There is an interesting article in LSAQ some years ago 
called

something like The shaky case for unison stringing on the vihuela -
sorry I can't remember the author or the year.  Again, can someone 
provide

the exact reference?

Best wishes,

Martin

Martyn Hodgson wrote:

 Dear Jean-michel,
 Put a colon after 'octaves' as  '.../*strung in octaves: outside
Italy*/' - I think you'll see what I meant   I didn't think
the meaning wasn't obvious but I'm sorry if you were momentarily 
misled.

As you'll see I do, of course, allow the earlier Italian lute in octave
tuning.
 But, interestingly and to extend this thread a little, for the later
16th century Italian repertoire do we really know how the lute was
expected to be strung?  I'm not sure that octaves on 4th and 5th as 
well

as the 6th (and lower) courses were still general by, say the 1570s. Do
you? Certainly the 17th century lute doesn't generally seem to have had
octaves on the 4th and 5th (people like Piccinnini, Melli and Santino
Garsi), so when did the change take place?  [Martin, have you done
anything on this?]
 MH

--- On *Tue, 31/8/10, jean-michel Catherinot
/jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com/* wrote:


From: jean-michel Catherinot jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
performed by Lex Eisenhardt
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu, Lute List
l...@cs.dartmouth.edu, Martin Shepherd
mar...@luteshop.co.uk, Martyn Hodgson 
hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk

Date: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010, 15:03

Except le Roy 's information about neapolitan school (with no
   octaves), I'm not aware of an italian general habit of stringing
   without octaves on the lute!
And most of lutenists today play high Renaissance lute music 
with

   plain octave stringing (6 to 4) as far as I know. On the
vihuela, no
   octave stringing began with Emilio Pujol, based only on an
ambiguous
   tuning chart in Pisador. So...
   --- En date de : Mar 31.8.10, Martyn Hodgson
   hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk

http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 


a ecrit :

 De: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk

http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 


 Objet: [VIHUELA] Guitar stringing was Re: Bartolotti Videos
 performed by Lex Eisenhardt
 A: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu

http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu, 


Lute List
 l...@cs.dartmouth.edu

http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu,
Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk

http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mar...@luteshop.co.uk

 Date: Mardi 31 aout 2010, 12h34

  And, of course, in the heyday of the 5 course guitar, the
lute

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


They were certainly used by Amat   and by anyone who read his book.   That
is the whole point of his various tables - to allow you to transpose pieces 
and if necessary when accompanying a song.


And Millioni also includes a table

Tavola delle lettere corrispondenti con le quali ciascuno se ne puol servire 
in trasmutar sonare da una lettera all'altra . . .


This shows all the different letters in different positions on the 
fingerboard all of which involve using a barre so that you can transpose all 
the basic pieces in the book into different keys.


As far as using a barre is concerned Chords G, H, M and N, to name but a few 
feature all the time in Millioni's books.  And earlier in Montesardo.


The fact that the some of the alfabeto song books do include a table giving 
the full alfabeto does suggest that players may have used these when 
transposing the accompaniment into a more convenient key.


All these sources are earlier than Brizeno - whose book in any case is 
intended for complete beginners.


M

- Original Message - 
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl

To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 1:45 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance



What we don't know [but can think of nevertheless], is how many of the 24
were used in practice. The _early_  sources we have (Of cifras: Briceno,
for instance. Of alfabeto: many) generally make use of just a limited
selection, mainly in first position.

Lex


- Original Message - 
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk

To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:38 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance



The barre certainly was an integral part of guitar technique in Spain
where it all began.   Amat's table of chords includes the whole 24, many
of which are played with a barre.

Also his table in Chapter 8 does enable you to work out the correct
chords to strum for the most usual situations although it doesn't
accommodate more complex chromatic harmony.

Monica







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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

Quite a few of the pieces in Foscarini's third book (1632)  include passage 
just shifting up and down the fingerboard - usually with chord N and chord 
M.


Monica

- Original Message - 
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk

To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:27 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance





  I wouldn't have considered Valdambrini 1646/47 a late source and he
  certainly peppers many pieces with movable alfabeto shapes in all
  positions up to and including thos requiring a 'barre' on the 9th
  fret.  Without a detailed search I noted the following alfabeto shapes
  used used in this high position: M N P S H K G

  In his table to Book 2 (p 39) he even shows G H M S with a 'barre' on
  the 10th and 11the fret! But I couldn't see he used higher than the 9th
  in his pieces.

  MH
  --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 13:45

  What we don't know [but can think of nevertheless], is how many of the
  24 were used in practice. The _early_  sources we have (Of cifras:
  Briceno, for instance. Of alfabeto: many) generally make use of just a
  limited selection, mainly in first position.
  Lex
  - Original Message - From: Monica Hall
  [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  To: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:38 PM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   The barre certainly was an integral part of guitar technique in Spain
  where it all began.   Amat's table of chords includes the whole 24,
  many of which are played with a barre.
  
   Also his table in Chapter 8 does enable you to work out the correct
  chords to strum for the most usual situations although it doesn't
  accommodate more complex chromatic harmony.
  
   Monica
  
  
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  2.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance





They were certainly used by Amat   and by anyone who read his book.   That
is the whole point of his various tables - to allow you to transpose 
pieces and if necessary when accompanying a song.


It's not my wish to deny that the trick of transposing by using barre chords 
was completely unknown. But Amat is rather pedantic about his invention, and 
eager to prove his right.




And Millioni also includes a table


Still, Millioni (1627) is later than the period I was thinking of


Tavola delle lettere corrispondenti con le quali ciascuno se ne puol 
servire in trasmutar sonare da una lettera all'altra . . .


This shows all the different letters in different positions on the 
fingerboard all of which involve using a barre so that you can transpose 
all the basic pieces in the book into different keys.



Yes, similar to Amat's. The question I tried to put forward is if it weren't 
practical in everyday use (for a stable lad) to have a five-course 
instrument to strum on, instead of a six-course (a vihuela?). To play and 
sing the sort of tunes we find with Bricenjo.



As far as using a barre is concerned Chords G, H, M and N, to name but a 
few feature all the time in Millioni's books.  And earlier in Montesardo.


Indeed. But if we consider the keys the dances are in, they are almost all 
in G major, G minor, D major, D minor and C major. That seems to reflect 
daily practice.


Transposing may have been for a more advanced level.

Lex





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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


It's not my wish to deny that the trick of transposing by using barre
chords was completely unknown. But Amat is rather pedantic about his
invention, and eager to prove his right.


I don't know what you mean by that.   What he says is quite simple and
straightforward and works perfectly well in practice.  Using a barre is not 
that difficult!



Still, Millioni (1627) is later than the period I was thinking of


All surviving copies of Millioni's book belong to later editions.  The
earliest is Quarta impressione del primo, secondo, et terzo libro.

Presumably there had been three previous printing of this compilation and
all three books would have appeared separately earlier.

 As far as using a barre is concerned Chords G, H, M and N, to name but a

few feature all the time in Millioni's books.  And earlier in Montesardo.


Indeed. But if we consider the keys the dances are in, they are almost all
in G major, G minor, D major, D minor and C major. That seems to reflect
daily practice.


So..if you are just dancing it doesn't matter what key you are in.

The keys of the songs in the song books I have seen  are mostly in keys with 
no sharps or one flat.   This is because the singers read them according to 
the solisation symbols.   It doesn't necessarily indicate pitch  literally.


Transposing may have been for a more advanced level.


Well - even stable boys may have wanted a bit of variety from time to time.

M


Lex





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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance