[VIHUELA] Re: Mersenne reference
Livre Second, Theoreme II, page 322 Free copy an Google Books (hit the red "Read ebook" link on the left) https://books.google.com/books?id=fVsiWYQUGpcC -Original Message- From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday 5 February 2020 11:01 To: VihuelaList Subject: [VIHUELA] Mersenne reference I just wondered whether any kind soul familiar with Mersenne's monumental work could Identify which Book/Chapter/page number in Harmonie universelle. the following quote appears. "Il faut remarquer que le genre chromatique de musique a pris son nom des couleurs , car chroma signifie couleur." Presumably there is a chapter about genres somewhere in the book. I haven't been able to access a free copy on line and don't really want to make a trip to the library just to check out one reference. Thank you Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: German translations
> on account (honor) of the instruction in guitar playing given I wonder if that is correct though. Would " umbwillen er vor beeden Khönigli Persohnen auf der Kittara gespielt" not be "while he played for (both?) royals on the guitar"? Regards Peter -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu On Behalf Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, April 23, 2018 3:02 PM To: heiman.dan...@juno.com Cc: VihuelaList Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: German translations Thank you very much for your help. I thought the spelling might be odd because I couldn't find some of the words in the dictionary. Nor could Google translate. Best wishes Monica Original Message From: heiman.dan...@juno.com Date: 23/04/2018 12:34 To: Subj: RE: [VIHUELA] German translations Monica: This is an entry in the court financial records for the period 13 November (1648) to the end of July 1649: "To Johann Francisco Corbetta, on account (honor) of the instruction in guitar playing given to the royal person, 60 florins was handed over." (The guitar instruction that Kaiser Leopold received in Vienna, while still a young prince, from Francesco Corbetta, who lived from ca.1615 to 1681.) The ledger entry is full of deviations from the modern accepted spellings and word usage of the German language. Regards, Daniel Heiman -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: 23 April, 2018 03:26 To: VihuelaList Subject: [VIHUELA] German translations I wonder if any kind person on the list whose knowledge of German is better than mine could translate the following into English. I can guess more or less what it is about but can't fathom out the details. He was played 60 fl. for whatever he did Eintrag in den Hofzahlamtsrechungen für den Zeitrum 13 November (1648) bis Ends July 1649 – Johann Francisco Corbetta Musico umbwillen er vor beeden Khönigli Persohnen auf der Kittara gespielt zur Verehrung dargeraicht 60 fl. Der Gitarrenunterricht, den Kaiser Leopold I noch als der jung Erzherzog in der Zeit zwischen November 1648 – July 1649 in Wien durch Francesco Corbetta (ca. 1615-1681) erheilt. Thanks for any help. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Sanz
You are after the "Editorial Alpuerto" edition, facsimile + transcription by De Zayas. ISBN 8438100937 apparently. I do not have it myself, publisher's website is unhelpful. -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: 06 August 2012 16:07 To: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Sanz Dear Collective Wisdom A couple of queries about Sanz. I have the facsimile published by the Instituto "Fernando el Catolico" in 1966. However there has been a more recent facsimile published. Can anyone give me the details of the publisher and date. It is actually on Amazon but they didn't seem to give the details. Also I believe Rodrigo de Zayas did a transcription of it. Does anyone have publication details of this. Thanks. Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
> Not surprisingly, Sanz indicates trills or mordents for the two > lower courses in the first two books: Also, in his "Regla quarta del trino" Sanz offers this advice: "I want to give a famous rule so that you know where a trill sounds good, and you can always do it even though it is not written down. In the first place, the open first, and second courses, trill them if you have a free finger, even though the trill is not written down. Also the fourth and fifth courses on the second fret, and all fourth frets. The reason is, because they are flats, or sharps, and in music this name corresponds to the trill" Peter -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Where to end?
>Yet again - re-entrant tunings have nothing to do with campanelas. What >Sanz says is >This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and other ornaments with the >left hand, the bourdon interferes with them because it is a thick string >and the other is thin, and therefore the hand cannot stop them evenly, and >hold down the thick string as easily as two thin strings. I have often wondered about that, because right before that, Sanz says: pero si alguno quiera puntear con primor, y dulAS:ura, -> y usar de las campanelas <-, que es el modo moderno con que aora se compone, no salen bien los bordones Followed by "this is the reason..." as above, but it is not obvious (to me at least) what ornaments have to do with campanelas..so is it not at least a possibility that he is referring to campanelas and re-entrant tuning? Peter -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Hello Franz, > but some quite odd with melodylines suddenly jumping an octave up or down. So > I suspected that these were not written for re-entrant tuning, or only the upper string > being re-entrant, but to take it like this seems also not convincing either. I find that many of these jumps would disappear if a high octave string were used on the third course, as Chris also mentioned. I remember one place in Sanz (the EspaA+-oleta in the "very easy pieces for beginners" in the foirst book) where both re-entrant and bourdon tuning would create either a seventh or a ninth jump, whereas re-entrant with upper ocatve g would not. Sanz however never mentions a high octave on thirds, and if I remember correctly there has been some discussion in the past as to the feasability of having a gut string tuned to g' without it breaking. IIRC Hopkinson Smith recorded his Sanz disc with high octave g, arguing that the tablature as written by Sanz calls for it. Regards Peter -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Lex, The more I think about it I tend to agree that it is not obvious that Sanz' comment about the D minor chord in 4/6 refers to basso continuo. Which brings me back to question that has been nagging me for a while, what on earth is Sanz on about?? Any ideas? Peter - Original Message - From: "Lex Eisenhardt" To: "Peter Kooiman" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010 12:16:59 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance Thank you for your kind words, Peter. Yes, you are right of course. The very first example gives the alfabeto chords and the bass notes to which they belong. We find similar instructions in almost every tutor from the time. But after having done that Sanz gives many examples in staff and tablature for which alfabeto would fall short. He makes a distinction between the rasgueado method and the far more elaborate punteado. What I didn't find is any reference to playing (completely) rasgueado/alfabeto together with a bass instrument. Considering the nature of alfabeto, a system with only triadic harmonies, this seems not all too obvious. Lex ----- Original Message - From: "Peter Kooiman" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 11:58 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance >With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the >resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his >text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance >with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only >plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, I just re-read the "Documentos y advertencia generales", Sanz definitely shows BOTH strumming and plucked textures in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying: "tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala con las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:" "All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters; the other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers." So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility for Sanz. Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
I forgot to add that, given that rule 1 says "in this one [the punteado] the thumb strikes the number that corresponds to the base", the plucked versions of the examples definitely seem to call for bourdons on 4 and 5, it seems somewhat unlikely that Sanz did not have bourdones in mind also for the strummed versions without mentioning that very important difference. - Original Message ----- From: "Peter Kooiman" To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010 11:58:25 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance >With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the >resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his >text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance >with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only >plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, I just re-read the "Documentos y advertencia generales", Sanz definitely shows BOTH strumming and plucked textures in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying: "tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala con las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:" "All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters; the other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers." So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility for Sanz. Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
>With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the >resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his >text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance >with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only >plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, I just re-read the "Documentos y advertencia generales", Sanz definitely shows BOTH strumming and plucked textures in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying: "tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala con las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:" "All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters; the other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers." So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility for Sanz. Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
Hello Lex, >With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the >resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his >text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance >with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only >plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, >which is below the other voices. This raises the question if his remark >about the D minor chord has anything to do with basso continuo. In that case, do you have any ideas on what Sanz is on about regarding the D minor with of without bourdons? On a totally unrelated note, after seeing the discussion here sparked by your Youtube videos, I managed to get your Bartolotti CD (The suites from the second book) and I am blown away by both the music and the performance. Regards Peter To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Euonimo and Aristonus
I found an English translation of Strabo's, 6.1.9: The Halex River, which marks the boundary between the Rhegian and the Locrian territories, passes out through a deep ravine; and a peculiar thing happens there in connection with the grasshoppers, that although those on the Locrian bank sing, the others remain mute. As for the cause of this, it is conjectured that on the latter side the region is so densely shaded that the grasshoppers, being wet with dew, cannot expand their membranes, whereas those on the sunny side have dry and horn-like membranes and therefore can easily produce their song. And people used to show in Locri a statue of Eunomus, the cithara-bard, with a locust seated on the cithara. Timaeus says that Eunomus and Ariston of Rhegium were once contesting with each other at the Pythian games and fell to quarrelling about the casting of the lots;so Ariston begged the Delphians to cooperate with him, for the reason that his ancestors belonged to the god and that the colony had been sent forth from there;and alth! ough Eunomus said that the Rhegini had absolutely no right even to participate in the vocal contests, since in their country even the grasshoppers, the sweetest-voiced of all creatures, were mute, Ariston was none the less held in favour and hoped for the victory; and yet Eunomus gained the victory and set up the aforesaid image in his native land, because during the contest, when one of the chords broke, a grasshopper lit on his cithara and supplied the missing sound. The interior above these cities is held by the Brettii; here is the city Mamertium, and also the forest that produces the best pitch, the Brettian. This forest is called Sila, is both well wooded and well watered, and is seven hundred stadia in length. Peter - Original Message - From: "Peter Kooiman" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 11:43:07 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Euonimo and Aristonus It's from Strabo's Geographika, Strabo in turn attributes the story to Timaeos. I only have a German translation, a websearch for "Eunomos" will probably yield what you are looking for. Regards Peter - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 10:57:45 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Euonimo and Aristonus Is there anyone familiar with Classical litereature who know of the story of Euonimo. Apparently he was competing with Ariston playing the cithara and broke a string (it happens to the best of us). The Gods (all of them?) sent a Cicada (presumably a sort of silkworm) which produced such a wonderful string that he won the competition and a statue was erected to him. Does anyone know where the story comes from? Regards Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Euonimo and Aristonus
It's from Strabo's Geographika, Strabo in turn attributes the story to Timaeos. I only have a German translation, a websearch for "Eunomos" will probably yield what you are looking for. Regards Peter - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 10:57:45 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Euonimo and Aristonus Is there anyone familiar with Classical litereature who know of the story of Euonimo. Apparently he was competing with Ariston playing the cithara and broke a string (it happens to the best of us). The Gods (all of them?) sent a Cicada (presumably a sort of silkworm) which produced such a wonderful string that he won the competition and a statue was erected to him. Does anyone know where the story comes from? Regards Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
>What is confusing you is that guitar music is always notated an octave higher >than it sounds. Yup..I had mentally transposed your basenote d down to D... Thanks for the explanation, that comment by Sanz about punto E had been bugging me for a while. Peter >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "Peter Kooiman" >> To: "Monica Hall" >> Cc: >> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:47 PM >> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt >> >> >>> Hello Monica, >>> >>> Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the >>> unequal >>> thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that >>> >>> "..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta >>> vacante en quarta baxo", >>> >>> in the translation from your stringing article: >>> >>> "Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, >>> which >>> is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor], >>> the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and >>> confuses the proper bass" >>> >>> which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing >>> happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is >>> produced >>> without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th >>> and >>> not on 5th? >>> >>> Peter >>> >>> - Original Message - >>> From: "Monica Hall" >>> To: "Chris Despopoulos" >>> Cc: "Vihuelalist" >>> Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM >>> Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt >>> >>> There is rather a lot to respond to here! >>> >>> I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly. It broadens the >>> scope >>> of things beyond what it is practical to keep >>> track of. (And I have never heard any of his music!!! (woeful >>> ignorance!) >>> >>> Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is >>> explicitly >>> intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. >>> >>> But that is not actually what he says. Without going through it all he >>> considers two options and ends by saying >>> >>> "Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the >>> purpose for which you are playing." >>> >>> We just might have a bit of a choice >>> >>> However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate >>> solo music like that of Bartolotti >>> are all to do with the kind of strings available. >>> >>> "If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use >>> campanelas, >>> which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well >>> as >>> do only thin strings on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I >>> have >>> had much experience. This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and >>> other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with them >>> because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the >>> hand >>> cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two >>> thin strings." >>> >>> Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave >>> doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down >>> two >>> strings of unequal thickness - and he should know. >>> >>> And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on >>> occasions >>> for much the same reasons. >>> >>> When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took >>> nearly >>> 150 years before this development took place. The most likely >>> explanation >>> is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing and because >>> re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a >>> re-entrant >>> tuning. Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th >>> century bourdons were a more practical option. But after octave >>> stringing >>> became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any >>> merit >>> seems to have been composed for it. It was used mainly to provid
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Yup, just realized was being thicker than usual, please disregard! - Original Message - From: "Peter Kooiman" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 5:24:09 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt I may be denser than usual today, but >Not if you have another instrument playing the bass line. Assuming that >your viola da gamba or theorbo was playing the note d on the middle line of >the bass stave, That would be D, right? >with a bourdon on the 5th course the 5th of the chord will >sound a fourth below. With a bourdon punto E would be A d a d' f', with A still a fifth above the base line instrument surely? Peter - Original Message - From: "Peter Kooiman" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt > Hello Monica, > > Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal > thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that > > "..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta > vacante en quarta baxo", > > in the translation from your stringing article: > > "Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which > is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor], > the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and > confuses the proper bass" > > which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing > happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced > without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and > not on 5th? > > Peter > > - Original Message - > From: "Monica Hall" > To: "Chris Despopoulos" > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt > > There is rather a lot to respond to here! > > I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly. It broadens the scope > of things beyond what it is practical to keep > track of. (And I have never heard any of his music!!! (woeful > ignorance!) > > Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly > intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. > > But that is not actually what he says. Without going through it all he > considers two options and ends by saying > > "Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the > purpose for which you are playing." > > We just might have a bit of a choice > > However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate > solo music like that of Bartolotti > are all to do with the kind of strings available. > > "If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas, > which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as > do only thin strings on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I > have > had much experience. This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and > other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with them > because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand > cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two > thin strings." > > Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave > doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two > strings of unequal thickness - and he should know. > > And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions > for much the same reasons. > > When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took > nearly > 150 years before this development took place. The most likely > explanation > is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing and because > re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant > tuning. Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th > century bourdons were a more practical option. But after octave > stringing > became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit > seems to have been composed for it. It was used mainly to provide > "Alberti" bass style accompaniments for the voice. > > As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower > courses > it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above. There is a > problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the "Great Divide" between > the > 3rd and 4th courses. However Gordon Ferries has recorded it wi
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
I may be denser than usual today, but >Not if you have another instrument playing the bass line. Assuming that >your viola da gamba or theorbo was playing the note d on the middle line of >the bass stave, That would be D, right? >with a bourdon on the 5th course the 5th of the chord will >sound a fourth below. With a bourdon punto E would be A d a d' f', with A still a fifth above the base line instrument surely? Peter - Original Message ----- From: "Peter Kooiman" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:47 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt > Hello Monica, > > Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal > thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that > > "..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta > vacante en quarta baxo", > > in the translation from your stringing article: > > "Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which > is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor], > the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and > confuses the proper bass" > > which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing > happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced > without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and > not on 5th? > > Peter > > - Original Message - > From: "Monica Hall" > To: "Chris Despopoulos" > Cc: "Vihuelalist" > Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt > > There is rather a lot to respond to here! > > I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly. It broadens the scope > of things beyond what it is practical to keep > track of. (And I have never heard any of his music!!! (woeful > ignorance!) > > Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly > intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. > > But that is not actually what he says. Without going through it all he > considers two options and ends by saying > > "Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the > purpose for which you are playing." > > We just might have a bit of a choice > > However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate > solo music like that of Bartolotti > are all to do with the kind of strings available. > > "If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas, > which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as > do only thin strings on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I > have > had much experience. This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and > other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with them > because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand > cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two > thin strings." > > Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave > doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two > strings of unequal thickness - and he should know. > > And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions > for much the same reasons. > > When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took > nearly > 150 years before this development took place. The most likely > explanation > is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing and because > re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant > tuning. Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th > century bourdons were a more practical option. But after octave > stringing > became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit > seems to have been composed for it. It was used mainly to provide > "Alberti" bass style accompaniments for the voice. > > As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower > courses > it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above. There is a > problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the "Great Divide" between > the > 3rd and 4th courses. However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the > re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow. > > Bear in mind also that the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for > unaccompannied > violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant > guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concen
[VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt
Hello Monica, Your quoting of Sanz reminds me, just after the argument about the unequal thickness of the strings Sanz goes on to say that "..que con bordones, si haces la letra o punto E...sale la quinta vacante en quarta baxo", in the translation from your stringing article: "Furthermore, with a bourdon, if you play the letter or chord of E, which is D lasolre [i.e. the chord of D minor], the open fifth course sounds a 4th below the root of the chord and confuses the proper bass" which I somehow cannot get my head around, does not the exact same thing happen without bourdons?? ie D minor in second inversion (6 4) is produced without bourdons as well...unless there would be a bourdon on the 4th and not on 5th? Peter - Original Message - From: "Monica Hall" To: "Chris Despopoulos" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, 31 August, 2010 3:09:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt There is rather a lot to respond to here! I don't think it is helpful to bring in Lead Belly. It broadens the scope of things beyond what it is practical to keep track of. (And I have never heard any of his music!!! (woeful ignorance!) Just concentrating on Sanz - everyone assumes that his music is explicitly intended to be played with the re-entrant tuning. But that is not actually what he says. Without going through it all he considers two options and ends by saying "Thus, you may choose whichever of the two pleases you, according to the purpose for which you are playing." We just might have a bit of a choice However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate solo music like that of Bartolotti are all to do with the kind of strings available. "If anyone wishes to play with skill and sweetness, and to use campanelas, which is now the modern way of composing, bourdons do not sound as well as do only thin strings on both the fourths and fifths, of which method I have had much experience. This is the reason - when making trills, slurs and other ornaments with the left hand, the bourdon interferes with them because it is a thick string and the other is thin, and therefore the hand cannot stop them evenly, and hold down the thick string as easily as two thin strings." Note well - that he doesn't recommend it because it eliminates octave doubling from the campanellas but because it is difficult to hold down two strings of unequal thickness - and he should know. And as Martyn has pointed out, even the lute went re-entrant on occasions for much the same reasons. When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took nearly 150 years before this development took place. The most likely explanation is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing and because re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant tuning. Once strings improved which they began to do early in the 18th century bourdons were a more practical option. But after octave stringing became the norm on the 5-course instrument very little music of any merit seems to have been composed for it. It was used mainly to provide "Alberti" bass style accompaniments for the voice. As far as Sanz's Fuga is concerned when the theme comes on the lower courses it is generally below the very basic accompaniment above. There is a problem with skips of a 7th/9th when passing the "Great Divide" between the 3rd and 4th courses. However Gordon Ferries has recorded it with the re-entrant tuning and it is not too difficult to follow. Bear in mind also that the great J.S. Bach wrote Fugues for unaccompannied violin and although the violin has a greater compass than the re-entrant guitar (and no Great Divide) it does require a bit of concentration to follow the musical argument. Perhaps you need to be a violinist to appreciate baroque guitar music (which I was in the dim distant past). Monica - Original Message - From: "Chris Despopoulos" To: "Monica Hall" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 11:30 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Bartolotti Videos performed by Lex Eisenhardt > Random musings from a folksy perspective... Not scholarship, just a > love for the guitar in all its forms. > Going back to good old Lead Belly (Huddie Ledbetter), who played the > 12-string guitar because he wanted a loud, piano-like sound -- not > unlike the advice we get from Sanz about bordones -- I have to say that > nobody really worries about doubled octaves, nor which octave to pick > out when listening to him. When Lead Belly played a walking bass, is > was a BASS line, no doubt about it. The octave adds PRESENCE, but the > note is BASS. > Were the strings so different in the 17th C. that one could have so > much doubt about the *sound* or *register* of a note played on > bordones? If both strings were struck together equally (say in a > trill, or rasgueado, or even playing a
