Re: Vim Job board?

[Yakov Lerner]

On 4/10/06, Bertram Scharpf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> first thank you all very much for the backings.  I'm on the
> way losing trust in my own mind.
>
> Could this be normal?  I've been in two jobs during the past
> year and not one of these well-paid colleagues calling
> themselves degreed software engineers does even know about
> Vim (neither Emacs).  None of them is having Linux at home.
> Extrapolating from this I don't expect my next job being
> much better.
>
> Is this a problem typical to Germany?

No, I don't think this is specific to Germany. One true story,
happening in Canada just a month ago:

the manager gives the new-hired programmer this task:
to reverse-engineer one feature of the competition
CD-burning software.

The manager opens the competition's  .exe  in the
notepad(!). And explains him that  based on (what they
see in the notepad'd screen), they will reverse-engineer
the needed feature easily. True story.

Anyway, I have some recommended reading list for you:

1. http://www.dilbert.com (daily)

2. "How to Work for an Idiot. By J.Hoover"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1564147045

3. "The Dilbert Principle" By Scott Adams
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0887308589/
& other books by Scot Adams ...

4. Also, try to search amazon.com for "office politics".
Some of these books are good 

Yakov

Re: Vim Job board?

[Bertram Scharpf]

Hi,

Am Freitag, 14. Apr 2006, 20:19:39 +1000 schrieb Doug Kearns:
> On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 08:19:54AM +0100, Matthew Winn wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 09, 2006 at 08:43:35PM +0200, Bertram Scharpf wrote:
> > > Sorry, I'm really bored of working together with developpers
> > > who don't even know about regular expressions.
> > 
> > In my opinion any programmer who doesn't understand regular expressions
> > and use them on a regular basis is nowhere near as productive as they
> > could be, and if they're that unproductive why are they in employment?
>  
> Hence the editor skill request? ;-)

I just used regexes as an instance. They don't know about
diff either. And many other tools not to enumerate here.

I once applied for a job and was asked wether I knew the
programming language "AWK". In the end I wasn't "qualified"
enough.

Bertram


-- 
Bertram Scharpf
Stuttgart, Deutschland/Germany
http://www.bertram-scharpf.de

Re: Vim Job board?

[Karl Guertin]

On 4/9/06, Bertram Scharpf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> my boss says that his editor is as least as good as mine and
> he wants me to give up using Vim.

I'm late to the party on this one, but unless the company editor
forces a radically different concept of project editing[1], I don't
see why you'd have to use a given editor. I could see having to adjust
the vim formatting to match corporate standards, but not forcing an
editor.

[1] http://leo.sf.net

Re: Vim Job board?

[Doug Kearns]

On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 08:19:54AM +0100, Matthew Winn wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 09, 2006 at 08:43:35PM +0200, Bertram Scharpf wrote:


 
> > Therefore I like to ask vice versa: Is there anywhere
> > on the web a job board for Vimmers? I'm thinking of
> > something like .
> 
> Does it make sense to have jobs for Vimmers?  An editor is just a tool
> used to do a job.  It's not a job in itself.
 
The first IT job I ever had, a web development job at Sun, included
"must be proficient in the use of vi" in it's job description.

> > Sorry, I'm really bored of working together with developpers
> > who don't even know about regular expressions.
> 
> In my opinion any programmer who doesn't understand regular expressions
> and use them on a regular basis is nowhere near as productive as they
> could be, and if they're that unproductive why are they in employment?
 
Hence the editor skill request? ;-)

Regards,
Doug

Re: Vim Job board? (OT)

[panshizhu]

Bill Pursell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 2006.04.14 11:05:34:
> On my first job, my supervisor described a problem they were
> having with their database files.  The issue arose from the
> fact that integer values were sometimes stored rationally (as
> 32-bit quantities), and sometimes stored as character strings.
> The proposed solution was to always store them as character
> strings.  Although that strikes me as a bizarre solution, the
> worst part was his description of the problem.  He said something
> along the lines of, "sometimes our numbers are stored in this
> weird format", by which he was referring to the concept of
> binary representation of numbers.  He didn't understand the
> basic concept of counting in base 2. How can a person working
> professionally with a computer not understand something so
> fundamental?
>

A bit off-topic, but I tend to have the similar feeling 5 years ago.

At that time I insist using 32-bit quantities to save integer numbers
inside database. And the attempt to store the numbers as character string
sounds absurd to me...

But now, I found that the proposed solution of "store all of them as
character strings" is really a sensible one.

The reason is still: transparancy, platform-independent, something that the
"The Art of Unix Programming" has encouraged.

--
Sincerely
Pan, Shizhu. ext: 2221

Re: Vim Job board?

[Bill Pursell]

Bertram Scharpf wrote:

Hi,


first thank you all very much for the backings.  I'm on the
way losing trust in my own mind.

Could this be normal?  I've been in two jobs during the past
year and not one of these well-paid colleagues calling
themselves degreed software engineers does even know about
Vim (neither Emacs).  None of them is having Linux at home.
Extrapolating from this I don't expect my next job being
much better.

Is this a problem typical to Germany?


On my first job, my supervisor described a problem they were
having with their database files.  The issue arose from the
fact that integer values were sometimes stored rationally (as
32-bit quantities), and sometimes stored as character strings.
The proposed solution was to always store them as character
strings.  Although that strikes me as a bizarre solution, the
worst part was his description of the problem.  He said something
along the lines of, "sometimes our numbers are stored in this
weird format", by which he was referring to the concept of
binary representation of numbers.  He didn't understand the
basic concept of counting in base 2. How can a person working
professionally with a computer not understand something so
fundamental?

Getting back to your original post, I am constantly amazed at
the number of people who criticize me for using vim, but can't
even use their own editor with any degree of competence.  Just
watching them navigate in a buffer is painful.  With regard
to your boss wanting to force you to use a new tool, maybe you
could suggest a friendly competition.  If you can demonstrate
that you can edit files more efficiently, maybe he'll force
the rest of the office to switch to vi!  (Highly unlikely,
and undesirable, but at the very least you might be able
to demonstrate that making you change is just friggin' stupid.)

Re: Vim Job board?

[Hugh Sasse]

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Matthew Winn wrote:

> On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 09:14:33PM +0200, Bertram Scharpf wrote:
> > 
> > first thank you all very much for the backings.  I'm on the
> > way losing trust in my own mind.
> > 
> > Could this be normal?  I've been in two jobs during the past
> > year and not one of these well-paid colleagues calling
> > themselves degreed software engineers does even know about
> > Vim (neither Emacs).  None of them is having Linux at home.

I'd refer them to "The Pragmatic Programmer", by Andrew Hunt
and David Thomas, from the books tips:

  Use a Single Editor Well
  The editor should be an extension of your hand; make sure your
  editor is configurable, extensible, and programmable.

http://www.pragmaticprogrammer.com/ppbook/extracts/rule_list.html

It's quite a thin book, but very good IMHO.  I've no financial
interest in its sales, in case you wondered :-)

> > Extrapolating from this I don't expect my next job being
> > much better.
> 
> [begin rant]
> 
> It's been my experience that many people working with computers want
> access to the very latest hardware but when it comes to the software
> they use they tend to stick with what they know and are extremely
> unadventurous.  I know many, many people who use Windows notepad as
[...]
> same with web browsers: count the number of people you know who use
> Internet Explorer, not because they're tried several browsers and find
> IE suits them best, but because they've never given any thought to
> trying an alternative.

See Edward de Bono's Thinking Course.  People just don't look for
alternatives.  Basically, because if something works then one is surviving.
Evolutionary psychologists would say more about that :-)  
Much of his work is about generating alternatives => lateral thinking.
> 

Hugh

Re: [OT] Vim Job board?

[Zbigniew Kowalski]

No, I don't think the problem is typical for Germany.
I can tell you that is also typical for my country and i suspect
i might by typical for the whole globalized IT.

I sympathy with you because i've experienced such problems at work too.

You have to either find some hacekers' job (difficult) or redefine your work 
into goal/responsibility orientated mode ie you are evaluated by your results 
and time you've achieved them.
in this way the means you're using (VIM, etc) ought not to matter for your 
manager as gets good quality in good time. this also puts 'the conservatists' 
in difficult position as they will find it hard to catch you up. So you can at 
least ask for a raise :)

good luck and stay cool
warm regards

zbigniew

Dnia 10-04-2006 o godz. 21:14 Bertram Scharpf napisał(a):
> Hi,
> 
> 
> first thank you all very much for the backings.  I'm on the
> way losing trust in my own mind.
> 
> Could this be normal?  I've been in two jobs during the past
> year and not one of these well-paid colleagues calling
> themselves degreed software engineers does even know about
> Vim (neither Emacs).  None of them is having Linux at home.
> Extrapolating from this I don't expect my next job being
> much better.
> 
> Is this a problem typical to Germany?
> 
> Am Montag, 10.  Apr 2006, 08:19:54 +0100 schrieb Matthew Winn:
> > On Sun, Apr 09, 2006 at 08:43:35PM +0200, Bertram Scharpf wrote:
> > > Therefore I like to ask vice versa: Is there anywhere
> > > on the web a job board for Vimmers? I'm thinking of
> > > something like .
> > 
> > Does it make sense to have jobs for Vimmers?  An editor is just a tool
> > used to do a job.  It's not a job in itself.
> 
> I just try to sieve against those who don't even use one or
> another reasonable tool.
> 
> Bertram
> 
> 
> -- 
> Bertram Scharpf
> Stuttgart, Deutschland/Germany
> http://www.bertram-scharpf.de
> 
Zbigniew Kowalski
http://zbikow1.webpark.pl/

Re: Vim Job board?

[Matthew Winn]

On Mon, Apr 10, 2006 at 09:14:33PM +0200, Bertram Scharpf wrote:
> 
> first thank you all very much for the backings.  I'm on the
> way losing trust in my own mind.
> 
> Could this be normal?  I've been in two jobs during the past
> year and not one of these well-paid colleagues calling
> themselves degreed software engineers does even know about
> Vim (neither Emacs).  None of them is having Linux at home.
> Extrapolating from this I don't expect my next job being
> much better.

[begin rant]

It's been my experience that many people working with computers want
access to the very latest hardware but when it comes to the software
they use they tend to stick with what they know and are extremely
unadventurous.  I know many, many people who use Windows notepad as
their editor because it's the default text editor on the PC and it's
never occurred to them to find something better, even though they might
spend several hours laboriously changing things that could be done in
ten seconds with a regular expression search and replace.  It's the
same with web browsers: count the number of people you know who use
Internet Explorer, not because they're tried several browsers and find
IE suits them best, but because they've never given any thought to
trying an alternative.

I work on software that uses an Oracle database.  We're currently
migrating our software to Oracle 10, but from time to time I'll meet
Oracle programmers who have yet to learn about the new features that
were introduced with Oracle 8.1 way back in 1999.  They still code as
if they might someday have to port their code back to Oracle 7.  Far
too many computer people learn one way of doing something and then
stick with it forever no matter how inefficient it is, just so long
as it lets them get the job done in the end.  They're not interested
in working efficiently if that would require them to learn something
new.

I once knew someone who protested because I installed Vim on a system
under the name "vi".  He didn't want any of the new features of Vim.
He didn't even want them to be there but not in use.  He wanted to have
a product that behaved _exactly_ like vi.  He wasn't a vi expert: he
didn't know about keys like "f" and "t", or options like "autoindent".
All he knew was the basic commands, and that was all he ever wanted to
know.

It amazes me that people like this find work, and it amazes me even
more that they're able to keep it.  It's as if they're children who
have decided: "Walking? No thanks. Crawling was good enough for me
when I was six months old so it's good enough for me now."

[end rant]

-- 
Matthew Winn ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Re: Vim Job board?

[Bertram Scharpf]

Hi,


first thank you all very much for the backings.  I'm on the
way losing trust in my own mind.

Could this be normal?  I've been in two jobs during the past
year and not one of these well-paid colleagues calling
themselves degreed software engineers does even know about
Vim (neither Emacs).  None of them is having Linux at home.
Extrapolating from this I don't expect my next job being
much better.

Is this a problem typical to Germany?

Am Montag, 10.  Apr 2006, 08:19:54 +0100 schrieb Matthew Winn:
> On Sun, Apr 09, 2006 at 08:43:35PM +0200, Bertram Scharpf wrote:
> > Therefore I like to ask vice versa: Is there anywhere
> > on the web a job board for Vimmers? I'm thinking of
> > something like .
> 
> Does it make sense to have jobs for Vimmers?  An editor is just a tool
> used to do a job.  It's not a job in itself.

I just try to sieve against those who don't even use one or
another reasonable tool.

Bertram


-- 
Bertram Scharpf
Stuttgart, Deutschland/Germany
http://www.bertram-scharpf.de

Re: Vim Job board?

[panshizhu]

Matthew Winn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 2006.04.10 15:19:54:
> On Sun, Apr 09, 2006 at 08:43:35PM +0200, Bertram Scharpf wrote:
> > my boss says that his editor is as least as good as mine and
> > he wants me to give up using Vim.
>
> Have you considered the possibility of replacing him?
>
> (Seriously: he sounds incompetent.  If he thinks you shouldn't be able
> to use whichever editor allows you to do your work as efficiently as
> possible, why is he there?)
>
> > Therefore I like to ask vice versa: Is there anywhere
> > on the web a job board for Vimmers? I'm thinking of
> > something like .
>
> Does it make sense to have jobs for Vimmers?  An editor is just a tool
> used to do a job.  It's not a job in itself.
>
> > Sorry, I'm really bored of working together with developpers
> > who don't even know about regular expressions.
>
> In my opinion any programmer who doesn't understand regular expressions
> and use them on a regular basis is nowhere near as productive as they
> could be, and if they're that unproductive why are they in employment?
>
> --
> Matthew Winn ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Ah-ha, sounds pretty "cynical", but I do really like and agree what you've
said. ;)

I'd remembered that five years before, my boss told me that her editor "vi"
is much better than mine, and suggest me to learn "vi" when I have time. I
downloaded Vim 5.x and learn to use Vi since then.  now five years
passed and the Vim speeds my work a lot.
--
Sincerely
Pan, Shizhu. ext: 2221

Re: Vim Job board?

[Matthew Winn]

On Sun, Apr 09, 2006 at 08:43:35PM +0200, Bertram Scharpf wrote:
> my boss says that his editor is as least as good as mine and
> he wants me to give up using Vim.

Have you considered the possibility of replacing him?

(Seriously: he sounds incompetent.  If he thinks you shouldn't be able
to use whichever editor allows you to do your work as efficiently as
possible, why is he there?)

> Therefore I like to ask vice versa: Is there anywhere
> on the web a job board for Vimmers? I'm thinking of
> something like .

Does it make sense to have jobs for Vimmers?  An editor is just a tool
used to do a job.  It's not a job in itself.

> Sorry, I'm really bored of working together with developpers
> who don't even know about regular expressions.

In my opinion any programmer who doesn't understand regular expressions
and use them on a regular basis is nowhere near as productive as they
could be, and if they're that unproductive why are they in employment?

-- 
Matthew Winn ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

Re: Vim Job board?

[Eddy Petrişor]

On 4/9/06, Stahlman Family <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > Oh, at least developers should know about regular expressions.
>
> How about developers who don't know about tags? Most of the developers in my 
> software lab use CodeWright for development, and
> although I'm pretty sure it supports tags, they do multiple greps to descend 
> through multiple levels of function call or macro
> expansion! The company strongly encourages the use of CodeWright by 
> developers, as they have an army of developers in Romania who
> have integrated CodeWright into what they call the "Toolset," a behemoth 
> program or suite of programs, which is supposed to insulate

That is the company policy which the department applies blindly in
fear not to have unreplaceable persons

> the developer from messy things like makefiles, compilers and linkers.

A good tool is always an asset, but a bad tool is not. I'll let you
judge which thinhg are good and which are bad :)

> They also attempt to restrict programmers to a very
> uninteresting subset of the C programming language, in an attempt to decrease 
> the likelihood of programmer error. I find such rules
> extremely restrictive and annoying. I believe the problem is that there are 
> many people whose job description calls for software
> development, who are not really programmers. Thus, the job is dumbed-down to 
> accomodate the least common denominator...

Again the "we can replace anybody" policy at work... believe me.

P.S.: youdidn't said anything about the SCM, which repeatedly is used
badly because not enough time for training is available ;-)

--
Regards,
EddyP
=
"Imagination is more important than knowledge" A.Einstein

Re: Vim Job board?

[panshizhu]

Bertram Scharpf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 2006.04.10 02:43:35:

> Hi,
>
> my boss says that his editor is as least as good as mine and
> he wants me to give up using Vim.
>
> Therefore I like to ask vice versa: Is there anywhere
> on the web a job board for Vimmers? I'm thinking of
> something like .
>
> Sorry, I'm really bored of working together with developpers
> who don't even know about regular expressions.
>
> Bertram
>
>
> --
> Bertram Scharpf
> Stuttgart, Deutschland/Germany
> http://www.bertram-scharpf.de

If it's that difficult the make your boss give up his mind, then it may be
chance to give up your current job...

IMO the only two sensible things which could be could "editor" might be
"vi" and "emacs", it is nonsense to say anything else can be as good as
"vi" or "emacs".

--
Sincerely
Pan, Shizhu. ext: 2221

Re: Vim Job board?

[Stahlman Family]

- Original Message - 
From: "Georg Dahn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Sunday, April 09, 2006 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: Vim Job board?



Hi!


my boss says that his editor is as least as good as mine and
he wants me to give up using Vim.


Which editor does he use? Emacs?


Sorry, I'm really bored of working together with developpers
who don't even know about regular expressions.


Oh, at least developers should know about regular expressions.


How about developers who don't know about tags? Most of the developers in my software lab use CodeWright for development, and 
although I'm pretty sure it supports tags, they do multiple greps to descend through multiple levels of function call or macro 
expansion! The company strongly encourages the use of CodeWright by developers, as they have an army of developers in Romania who 
have integrated CodeWright into what they call the "Toolset," a behemoth program or suite of programs, which is supposed to insulate 
the developer from messy things like makefiles, compilers and linkers. They also attempt to restrict programmers to a very 
uninteresting subset of the C programming language, in an attempt to decrease the likelihood of programmer error. I find such rules 
extremely restrictive and annoying. I believe the problem is that there are many people whose job description calls for software 
development, who are not really programmers. Thus, the job is dumbed-down to accomodate the least common denominator...


Brett Stahlman



Best wishes,
Georg


___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new 
Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com

Re: Vim Job board?

[Georg Dahn]

Hi!


my boss says that his editor is as least as good as mine and
he wants me to give up using Vim.


Which editor does he use? Emacs?


Sorry, I'm really bored of working together with developpers
who don't even know about regular expressions.


Oh, at least developers should know about regular expressions.

Best wishes,
Georg


___ 
To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com

Vim Job board?

[Bertram Scharpf]

Hi,

my boss says that his editor is as least as good as mine and
he wants me to give up using Vim.

Therefore I like to ask vice versa: Is there anywhere
on the web a job board for Vimmers? I'm thinking of
something like .

Sorry, I'm really bored of working together with developpers
who don't even know about regular expressions.

Bertram


-- 
Bertram Scharpf
Stuttgart, Deutschland/Germany
http://www.bertram-scharpf.de