[Vo]: Re: What is HTP ?

[Frederick Sparber]

Since Jones is smitten with HTP/Gold Fever.  :-)
 
Heap Leach extraction of gold from ore requires aeration (spray)
of the water-cyanide leachant to form H2O2.
 
Similar  Anodic and Cathodic reactions can occur in an electrolysis cell
without the cyanide,but, possibly enhanced by dissolved metal (M +) ions.
 
http://www.metlabsolutions.com/business.html
 
A






Let's explore exactly how cyanide dissolves gold:
The cyanidation process of metals is a heterogeneous reaction (i.e. a reaction driven by unrelated or unlike components) and is a corrosion process. 

The reaction for this process is: 2 Au + 4 KCN + O2 + 2 H2O ===> 2 KAu (CN)2 + 2 KOH + H2O2

The metal in question (Au) dissolves by two processes occurring simultaneously on its surface. At one end of the metal, the cathodic zone, oxygen takes up electrons and undergoes a reduction reaction. At the other end of the metal, the anodic zone, the metal gives up electrons and undergoes an oxidation reaction.  The anodic and cathodic reactions can be expressed as:
Anodic:(1) Au ===> Au+ + e-(2) Au+ + 2 CN- ===> Au (CN)2
 
Cathodic: (1) O2 + 2 H2O + 2 e- ===> H2O2 + 2 OH-
In an electrolysis cell:
 
At the cathode:
 
Dissolved O2 gas + 2 H2O + 2 e-   > H2O2aq + 2 OH-
 
At the Anode 2 OH-   - 2 e-  ->  H2O2aq
 
Provided that the cell is kept at low temperature.
 
OTOH, the presence of CO2/H2CO3 will provide H+/H3O+ cations and
HCO3- and CO3= anions which will accept electrons at the cathode and 
donate electrons at the anode respectively, hence setting up an ancillary CO2-H2O cycle.
 
Fred
 
 

Re: [VO]:Re: OT How to deal with terrorism

[Philip Winestone]

Richard,

I always read your emails with a Texas accent; dunno how, but there it is...

As usual, what you say has great depth, and most of all, an aura of truth 
unfettered by ideology.


By the way, Mark Twain also commented, in his own inimitable way, on what 
the land was like around the end of the 19th century.  It was just as you 
described it below: no basketball-sized grapefruits.


P.



At 09:34 PM 8/14/2006 -0500, you wrote:

Howdy Vorts,

Been an interesting series of comments but I see no consensus.

At the fundamental base of humanity, very few have an inherent evil 
within. I have met very  few that were evil to the core without any 
redemptive value.
There seems to be an age , possibly around 6-9 years, where certain 
patterns of behavior emerge and a set of values begin to form that 
influence behavior into adulthood.  It is mostly impossible to change a 
persons mind or behavior once set.since only God can change the heart.
Different religious cultural practice and parental teaching and discipline 
seems to identify with various cultures. Muslim culture clashes with 
Judeo-Christian culture and has for some 1400 years. Isreal understands 
there can be no peaceful resolution so their method of survival is eye for 
an eye. The Christian method is dependence upon God. We could be seeing 
the same situation that occurred in the time of the kings of Isreal where 
2 Chronicles chapter 20  identifies battles that belong to God.


The USA is not only a paradox, it is going through another phase of 
melding of cultures of which the outcome we cannot predict.
Dynamic changes underway have unintended consequences where individual 
freedoms are further reduced both by the well intended and the schemes of men.


Human nature is influenced by jealousy, vanity, lust and greed which leads 
to no end of mischief with never ending variations producing one of the 
most profitable and intriguing industries on the US scene... lawyering. 
and the military industrial complex so profitable to the Carylile and 
Blackstone group.


I recall reading something written by DesCartes after his visit to the 
holy lands regarding his unbelief that the phophecy of the eventual 
restoration of Isreal couldn't happen because no one lived in the desert 
region between the western sea and the Persian gulf except a few thousand 
nomadic herdsmen. Yet the Zionist movement sent settlers to form Kibbutz 
along the Gaza area in the 1880's They secured authorization from the 
Turkish Sultan and purchased ( emphasis on bought , not took) the land 
from the tribesmen on which they drilled water wells and created irrigated 
farming co-ops ( communes) to sell produce to Europe. After thses farms 
were established, their next step was to form the Hebrew University to 
begin the training of a civil service cadre for governing. This long range 
planning resulted in what Isaiah predicted and a nation was created in 
"one day" in 1948. There has not been one day of peace since that day. 
There has not been a day since 1948 that Isreal has not been mentioned in 
the world news. Phophecy states that every nation that comes against 
Isreal will injure themselves. A view of the pics of the damage wrought 
against Lebanon seems to confirm that prophecy.


Maybe the Mexicans had it right in the old days.. when two people couldn't 
agree, they tied their hands together with rawhide , handed each a sharp 
machete and advised them to settle the matter between themselves.
Oh! were the disputes of the world that easy to resolve.  But .come to 
think of it.. trouble usually starts with just two. If the two could be 
culled out before they were able to hire somebody else to fight their 
battles. everyone else would be left in peace to chase women, drink 
whiskey and raise hell.


Richard

Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism

[Nick Palmer]

Jed wrote:-
<>

The centuries old "troubles" stopped because there was recently a power 
sharing agreement between the British (Northern Ireland) and Southern 
Ireland governments. The conflict was because the Brits originally 
"colonised by force" Northern Ireland. The Sinn Fein (Republican movement, 
of which the IRA were the armed soldiers/ terrorists, wanted the whole of 
Ireland back under their control - most of the Northern Irish Protestant 
majority wanted to stay loyal to Britain. The Protestants were the 
descendants of the invaders but, as Northern Ireland was their home, they 
didn't want to give it up. Impasse?
   The Muslim terrorists are no more evil than the pilot of the Enola Gay 
was evil. Terrorists are usually created by a large organised force ( in 
this case the USA) that will not listen or care when people object to what 
it is doing. If those with the greatest power will not listen, or believe 
that they have a divine right to ride rough shod over others in the pursuit 
of their objectives, whether voted on democratically or not, there is NO 
CHOICE for the abused other than to adopt the tactics of "asymmetric threat" 
Until the ordinary American realises that they have encouraged their 
government to push around and manipulate less powerful countries for the 
benefit of the USA's extreme and pathological greed AND TELLS THEM TO STOP, 
there will be no end to it.



Philip Winestone wrote:-
>


Don't believe this evil piece of propaganda put about by Bush, Cheney et al 
to fool the simple minded that you have "God on your side". In a large 
proportion of the thinking peoples of the world, the USA is despised for its 
overbearing, cheap, decadent and greedy culture. YOU TOOK TOO MUCH "WATER" 
at the expense of others. That is why you are hated.



Nick Palmer 

Re: [Vo]: OT: Lee Smolin on "A Crisis in Fundamental Physics"

[Terry Blanton]

On 8/14/06, Harry Veeder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


A recent article by Lee Smolin entitled "A Crisis
in Fundamental Physics"

http://www.nyas.org/publications/UpdateUnbound.asp?UpdateID=41


Excellent article Harry.  I believe it is most certainly on topic.
This is the very attitude which drove Hotson from studying physics:

http://www.geocities.com/terry1094/HotsonPart1.pdf



The Hotson "family business" is English literature. Mr. Hotson's
father and uncle had Harvard Ph.D.s in the subject, and his late uncle
was a famous Shakespeare scholar. Mr. Hotson, however, always intended
a career in physics. Unfortunately, he could not resist asking awkward
questions. His professors taught that conservation of mass-energy is
the never-violated, rock-solid foundation of all physics. In "pair
production" a photon of at least 1.022 MeV "creates" an
electron-positron pair, each with 0.511 MeV of rest energy, with any
excess being the momentum of the "created" pair. So supposedly the
conservation books balance.

But the "created" electron and positron both have spin (angular
momentum) energy of h/4p. By any assumption as to the size of electron
or positron, this is far more energy than that supplied by the photon
at "creation."

"Isn't angular momentum energy?" he asked a professor.

"Of course it is. This half-integer spin angular momentum is the
energy needed by the electron to set up a stable standing wave around
the proton. Thus it is responsible for the Pauli exclusion principle,
hence for the extension and stability of all matter. You could say it
is the sole cause of the periodic table of elements." "Then where does
all this energy come from? How can the 'created' electron have
something like sixteen times more energy than the photon that
supposedly 'created' it? Isn't this a huge violation of your
never-violated rock-solid foundation of all physics?"

"We regard spin angular momentum as an 'inherent property' of electron
and positron, not as a violation of conservation."

"But if it's real energy, where does it come from? Does the Energy
Fairy step in and proclaim a miracle every time 'creation' is invoked,
billions of times a second? How does this fit your never-violated
conservation?"

"'Inherent property' means we don't talk about it, and you won't
either if you want to pass this course."

Well, this answer sounded to him like the Stephen Leacock aphorism:
"'Shut up,' he explained." Later Mr. Hotson was taken aside and told
that his "attitude" was disrupting the class, and that further, with
his "attitude," there was no chance in hell of his completing a
graduate program in physics, so "save your money." He ended up at the
Sorbonne studying French literature, and later became a professional
land surveyor. However, he has retained a lifelong interest in the
"awkward questions" of physics, and with Dirac's Equation has found
some answers.

Re: [Vo]: RIP Detroit - Formally: Detroit Sees the Light

[Terry Blanton]

On 8/14/06, Robin van Spaandonk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



In that case, I'm surprised that they don't simply specify battery
life in miles. Why pay any attention to the number of recharges at
all? (BTW now that you mention it, I had heard the Li-ion
batteries have no memory effect). However something in the battery
must deteriorate with use?


If I understand it correctly, the Li eventually forms a neutralizing
crystal structure which renders the battery unchargeable.

Terry

RE: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism

[Zell, Chris]

What is disturbing also are the bogus assumptions that pass for thinking
about terrorism. Such as:

Appeasement:  the biggest one of all.  Europeans love appeasement.
Ignore the terror, pay them off,  hope for a better tomorrow.  If that
doesn't work, so what?
   If your art and literature is swelled with
nihilism - and your baby cribs are collectively empty , remember that
life has no meaning, anyway.
   Slash your military and pontificate to the rest
of the world like old men on a porch, watching the world go by.  Give
Gaza back and things will
   improve.  Retreat from Lebanon and things will
get better.  Accept blame for terror and accept Muslim victimhood and
things will get better.

   Guess what?  The more you do the above, the more
effective terror tactics become!


Imputing "fairness" to others:   related to the above,  what is "fair"?
What was "fair" to Hitler?  More importantly, what is "fair" to radical
Muslims who see it as
 their God-given right to
impose their religious law on you?  And that "Dhimmi-hood" ( you PAY
them as cursed infidels) is fair also?
 

 It is this "fairness" that causes European Muslim leaders to tell their
flocks that welfare payments are owed to them, because the government is
non Islamic
 and non believers owe them money, thereby.

It is this "fairness"  that causes Palestinian leaders to announce that
they will target every city in Israel with rockets after Israel
withdraws from the West Bank.


And finally, the biggest human fallacy in social relations:  Never,
never, never understand that being "positive" to a spoiled child makes
everything worse,
Once the initial capitulation wears off.

I'm sorry you're angry Mr. Hitler.  If you promise to be good, we'll
give you the Sudetenland?  All right, all right,  if you stop the
tantrum , we'll let you have
Czechoslovakia, too.  Please be good, please, please.

Treating these childish nations like adults is long overdue.  Set up
reasonable negotiations and don't let them weasel out of them.  The two
state solution
In Palestine is a good start.  If a Palestinian state ever emerges, it
will exist purely because Israel exists.  Or has Palestine not been
dominated by every
Passing empire across thousands of years of history?

RE: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism

[Zell, Chris]

Comparing the Japanese to modern suicide warriors brings little
satisfaction.  Their suicide was in defense of a nation with borders,
not some vague fanatical notion
Of a Muslim people.  Thus, defeat or victory was easy to define.

In addition, the suicide spirit was cultivated in wartime Japan, amidst
all the isolation that entailed.  This is a far cry from wandering thru
airports, western colleges,
strip bars,  and various part time jobs in western businesses.  A few
officers like Yamamoto had extensive exposure to western lands and
culture.  His experience
therefore made him more realistic - and somewhat pessimistic - about war
with the US.  He knew they needed a quick victory - something very
different from the
twisted schemes of Muslim fanatics.

Shinto was the religion of a single nation and not something easily
exported by missionaries, unlike the aggressive claims of Islam.

The recent attempted bombings in London did not manifest a great deal of
invested money - plane tickets and peroxide bombs are the weapons of the
poor.
Pakistan is not an oil power.  

On the other hand, loss of oil money might dry up some Wahabist schools.
I also see some value in the current Shia/Sunni divide coming out in the
open.
It may be best to keep them divided and killing each other, if
rationality cannot otherwise prevail.  

RE: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism

[Jed Rothwell]

Zell, Chris wrote:

In addition, the suicide spirit was cultivated in wartime Japan, 
amidst all the isolation that entailed.  This is a far cry from 
wandering thru airports, western colleges, strip bars,  and various 
part time jobs in western businesses.


Of course it is very different. The point is, fanatical, suicidal 
people came to their senses and stopped the carnage. This kind of 
craziness does not usually continue indefinitely.




A few officers like Yamamoto had extensive exposure to western lands and
culture.  His experience therefore made him more realistic - and 
somewhat pessimistic - about war with the US.


Very pessimistic. Actually, all Navy officers went on compulsory 
overseas tours and compared to the average person they were 
sophisticated and exposed to Western nations, so many of them felt 
misgivings about the war. The army top brass was more provincial. 
Unfortunately the army took over the country, and army hotheads tried 
to assassinate Yamamoto.



Shinto was the religion of a single nation and not something easily 
exported by missionaries, unlike the aggressive claims of Islam.


Actually, it was mainly cobbled together in the late 19th century as 
a mind-control tool to crack down on the people. So was Wahhabism, in 
the mid-18th century. These things have not been around long, and I 
doubt they will last. People often imagine that such institutions are 
ancient and permanent, but that is not the case.



It may be best to keep them divided and killing each other, if 
rationality cannot otherwise prevail.


Division and killing are bad for everyone. Misery breeds more misery. 
The only hope is that these societies will turn to constructive, 
life-affirming paths. And they probably will! Most societies do, 
sooner or later. Looking at the sum-total of history, and at present 
cultures in the world, you seldom find ones that are deeply 
dysfunctional and mired in self-destructive misery. They self-correct 
after a while, or self-destruct and go extinct, as described by J. 
Diamond in "Collapse." Naturally there are always criminals, social 
problems, and disruption. But the notion that we will be locked in an 
unending culturally-based war with these people for decades or 
centuries strikes me as profoundly unrealistic, ignorant of history, 
and far too pessimistic. The only country stuck in that kind of mess 
is Israel, sad to say.


Along the same lines, the notion that we are going to run out of oil 
and then be plunged into a new dark age of starvation and $20 per 
gallon gasoline strikes me as ludicrous. No doubt we will run out of 
oil, and the sooner the better. The result will almost certainly be 
the rapid development of superior technology and an overall 
improvement in living standards, reduced pollution, and so on. As I 
said in chapter 18, this is a sure thing, unless we let idiots like 
Rifkin and the editor of SciAm stand in the way.


See:

S. L. Sass, "Scarcity, Mother of Invention"

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/10/opinion/10sass.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

"Throughout history, shortages of vital resources have driven 
innovation, and energy has often starred in these technological 
dramas. The desperate search for new sources of energy and new 
materials has frequently produced remarkable advances that no one 
could have imagined when the shortage first became evident."


See also S. L. Sass, prof. of materials science and engineering, 
Cornell, "The Substance of Civilization: Materials and Human History 
From the Stone Age to the Age of Silicon."


- Jed

[Vo]: Smokerings in vacuum

[David Jonsson]

HiCheck theese photos and tell me if there could be a white smokering coming out in the upper right.http://www.newphys.se/Endeavour_smokering/David

Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism

[Terry Blanton]

On 8/14/06, Jed Rothwell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Edmund Storms wrote:

>No one can win against a foe who is willing to die for their belief . . .

True for non-conventional wars.


I always drawn back to this article by the late Robin Cook:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1523838,00.html

written after the London bombings.  I find this excerpt amusing:

"Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by
western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA
and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation
of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the
computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and
trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably,
and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to
Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's
organisation would turn its attention to the west."

Terry

[VO]:Re: OT How to deal with terrorism

[RC Macaulay]

Jed wrote..
 People often imagine that such institutions are ancient and 
permanent, but that is not the case.
Howdy Jed,
I spend entirely too much time reading your's and Jones threads and 
comments.
 Thinking of various religious teachings and practices led me to rethink 
the prophetic statements of Jacob made when blessing his two 
grandsons   Menassah and Ephraim. As part of the ten northern tribes 
of Isreal that are mentioned in history as the "lost tribes" their future 
functions are alluded to in this prophecy. If they are "lost" they have no 
future.. unless.. we are not looking at the world scene through those prophetic 
words. The description of Joseph's "coat of many colors" has always baffled me 
as to it's meaning. I have often considered the role Isreal plays in the world 
scene. throughout history. They are way to tiny to influence the mass of 
humanity.. unless.. again we are missing something. Isreal is way too 
influencial in the world.. Science, medicine, banking, law, administration, etc 
is keyed to the ancient mores of Isreali law and ethics. 
The question becomes .. who are these people ? Who are Ephaim and Menassah? 
do they exist in today's world? These intriguing questions are given to ponder. 
Joseph was the son that forgave and ultimately rescued his brothers from 
starvation by his actions in Egypt. I try to picture his sons, Ephraim and 
Menassah performing the same function in today's Isreal and the connection to 
the the Brits and the USA. Do we again see a paradox being played out on the 
world stage often described in the ancient writing in the bible couched in 
stories about Cain and Abel, Isaac and Ismael, Jacob and Esau Isreal and 
Islam ?? Man's attempt to solve problems using human tools? 
As an ole Andy Griffin TV series once portrayed.. Andy was asked a question 
and his answer was I don't know the answer, BUT, I have thought about 
it.
The Mexican Federalies had the solution in the ole days. Ride into town, 
choose 3 lilely suspicious bandido candidates to put again the wall and execute. 
The priest would invariably attempt to intervene with the claim that at least 
one was innocent. The executioner would say.. God will sort the 
souls. Politics by expediancy.
Richard

Re: [Vo]: Smokerings in vacuum

[Terry Blanton]

On 8/15/06, David Jonsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi

Check theese photos and tell me if there could be a white smokering coming
out in the upper right.
http://www.newphys.se/Endeavour_smokering/


Yes, ever since the fire on Apollo I, astronauts are required to go
outside to smoke.

;-)

Terry

[Vo]: Re: What is HTP ?

[Jones Beene]

Fred is a "gold mine" of information these days...

The larger question for consideration of MTP (medium test 
peroxide, ~ 35%) as an alternative fuel is: what is the lowest 
possible "energy cost" for producing HOOH from ozone?


Fred provided this reference:

"The theoretical yield is 1200 grams O3 per kilowatt-Hour,
commercial units  show 5%efficiency  in air and 15% in O2".

Electrical Engineer's Handbook (Electric Power)
Pender, Dell Mar eighth printing 1967


Since 1200 grams of O3 will theoretically convert one kg of H2O to 
1.4 kg of HOOH, which is one liter, mas o menos, we have some 
round numbers to work with.


To get a liter of 35% HOOH for ten cents of grid power, we need to 
achieve an efficiency of about 35%. Is that doable?


Maybe.

The low efficiency of commercial units is due primarily to using 
UV light, and the losses are mostly related to the other radiation 
in the visible and IR spectra - from the light source, which are 
not useful for making ozone.


Commercial units (for hot tubs and pools, etc) are concerned 
mainly with simplicity, reliability and NOT the lowest energy 
costs, since ozone is an incredibly potent for use as a 
disinfection product - ergo, no one will quibble over a few cents 
worth of grid power. Plus that data is 40 years old now.


However, if one wanted to fuel an automobile with 35% HOOH, 
knowing to will take 250 liters to replace 11 gallons of gasoline, 
then ... in order to save the $10 and make the process arguably 
attractive, using an energy cost of 10 cents per liter, then it 
would seem that this goal is potentially doable (with a massive 
engineering effort).


If Detroit put a fair fraction of its R&D budget into this, we 
could possibly have a viable cheap alternative fuel made from air 
and water in the short term...


Jones

Re: [Vo]: Re: What is HTP ?

[Terry Blanton]

On 8/15/06, Jones Beene <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


To get a liter of 35% HOOH for ten cents of grid power, we need to
achieve an efficiency of about 35%. Is that doable?

Maybe.


CARNIVORE keeping you from saying "hydrogen peroxide"?  ;-)

I was starting one of my small engines this weekend when I realized
that the fuel I was using and the "charged water" constituted the
ingredients for one of the bombs that were thwarted in London
(nitromethane and H2O2).

Syncronicity.

Terry

[Vo]: Re: Re: What is HTP ?

[Colin Quinney]

Jones, how about this 1999 patent?.
They use Glow Discharge and UV  (together)  and claim H2O2 production 
increases from ~ 12% to ~ 25% .


http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?KEY=99/37581.991028

Title:
(WO/1999/037581) HIGH EFFICIENCY GLOW DISCHARGE GASEOUS PROCESSING SYSTEM 
FOR HYDROGEN PEROXIDE PRODUCTION AND OTHER CHEMICAL PROCESSING OF GASES.

Abstract:
A high efficiency plasma processing system for use in the generation of 
large quantities of gases, particularly hydrogen peroxide or ozone, for 
chemical commercial and industrial applications is based upon a homogeneous 
electrical glow discharge. In addition to the homogenous discharge, the high 
efficiency of ozone or other chemical production is achieved by exciting the 
discharge with high voltage pulses which have a voltage rate-of-rise in 
excess of 500 V/ns and incorporating an internal gas circulation system 
which maintains the temperature of the process gas to a level where the 
thermal decomposition of ozone, for example, is significantly reduced. A 
homogeneous and stable atmospheric glow discharge is developed by 
preionizing the discharge region with ultra-violet radiation, for example, 
immediately before the application of the main high voltage pulse across the 
electrodes of the discharge cell.


Colin
- Original Message - 
From: "Jones Beene" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 12:30 PM
Subject: [Vo]: Re: What is HTP ?



Fred is a "gold mine" of information these days...

The larger question for consideration of MTP (medium test peroxide, ~ 35%) 
as an alternative fuel is: what is the lowest possible "energy cost" for 
producing HOOH from ozone?


Fred provided this reference:

"The theoretical yield is 1200 grams O3 per kilowatt-Hour,
commercial units  show 5%efficiency  in air and 15% in O2".
 

[Vo]: Rare PKD Interview

[Terry Blanton]

From 1977 with French subtitles no less:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ewcp6Nm-rQ

Terry

Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products

[Kyle R. Mcallister]

- Original Message - 
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 11:51 PM
Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products


Wrong. Both Jews and Christians *are* doing these things too. The
only difference is that the Muslims don't have expensive airplanes
to drop their bombs from, and they don't kill as many people.


The Israelis are justified in what they are doing. They have been constantly 
attacked. Ever heard of "suicide bombers"?


If you are equating Christians = Americans, then we are also justified. We 
were attacked, and retaliation is perfectly reasonable. The only question 
is, in my mind, is it massive enough?


--Kyle 

Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism

[Edmund Storms]

Philip Winestone wrote:


Good points Ed.

As for the lack of parental control (and ultimately the lack of 
self-control), I think I know what you're getting at; rules in some form 
are very necessary, despite our dislike of people curtailing our 
"freedom" (although the rules, in the case of "honour" killings (I like 
to call them "ego killings") are decidedly less favourable toward women 
than men).


In our case, the pendulum has swung far too far where permissiveness is 
concerned... And I'll let it go at that!!!


As for the "water" analogy, that's a whole discussion in itself.  
Briefly, I'm a great admirer of the Americans (I was born and educated 
in Scotland and now live in Canada) because they essentially made their 
own "water" as a nation; took risks and used their resourcefulness to 
create the "water" they now have.  But some (many) people are envious of 
this water - without regard to the blood, sweat and tears that it took 
to create it - and would like to either steal it or spill it on the 
ground just to satisfy this envy.


Here is where we differ.  Although envy is real and can motivate an 
individual for good or ill, I do not think it can mobilize many people 
and cause them to die for the idea.  The root cause has to be a 
universal feeling, like pride, fairness, justice or just plane old self 
defense.  Once these trip wires stir up the emotions, the other side 
naturally finds all kinds of defects in their enemy to justify killing 
them. We all see examples of great wealth in our countries, but very few 
people are motivated to attack these people even if they could. On the 
other hand, if a group attacks us, steals our livelihood, or treats us 
like dirt, must people would be first in line to kill them. The West has 
systematically done this to the Moslems nations over many years. For 
example, we supported the Shaw of Iran even though he was a very 
unpopular dictator. When he was thrown out by popular revolution, we did 
everything we could to intervene. We even supported Iraq in the war 
between Iran and Iraq. We treated the popular will of Iran like dirt. If 
Mexico had done the same thing to us, there would have been war. I find 
many people in the West can not believe our actions are not pure and 
good. When other people object, we believe they must be doing this with 
bad motives, which justifies our increased control.  Of course, things 
get out of hand, like a bar fight after a few punches are thrown.  At 
this point, being nice will not stop the fight.  Only calling the cops 
will work. But would it not be better to know how to keep a bar fight 
from getting started in the first place?  Most people know how prevent 
pissing the other guy off. The US government has never learned this 
because we were always the biggest guy in the bar.  Now, the little guys 
have learned how to gang up and hit us when our back is turned. Being 
big no longer works.


Ed


P.



At 07:21 PM 8/14/2006 -0600, you wrote:



Philip Winestone wrote:

Tut Tut Ed... The problem is that you believe everyone thinks 
rationally and quasi-legally like you do.  Most don't.



Good point, Philip.  Nevertheless, most people, except the insane, are 
rational if the rules of the game are understood. For example, as you 
note below, honor killing is very rational if the law is designed to 
be implemented by the individual rather than by the state.


And as for: "A sane person does not try to murder his neighbor 
because he thinks she is a slut. On the other hand, if, for example, 
the neighbor takes all the water, treats you like dirt, and kills 
your friends, you might think of murder."
You haven't heard of honour killings?  More often than not they 
murder their own offspring for that very reason.  So we're talking 
certain levels of sanity here.



Some societies are designed to be self policing. The father has the 
right to control his children by any means he thinks necessary. If the 
child can not be controlled or will not follow the rules, he/she can 
be killed. I don't recommend this approach, but it works better than 
our system seems to work in some cases.



And what if I deserve to be treated like dirt because... well...
perhaps I am dirt?  Have you never experienced neighbours like that?
Some people just can't get their heads around quantum physics, so 
they resort to... mayhem.  And as dirt often associates with dirt... 
well you get the picture...



Agreed, some people are just plain mean and irrational. We use the 
state (courts or police) to control them. Some societies allow the 
individual to take action. I have known occasions when I wished this 
method was used more often here.


And the water?  Well why does dirt (me, remember?) care so much about 
water?



Water is a analogy for all that makes life possible.  If you take my 
"water" you make my life impossible and I have nothing to lose by 
killing you.


Ed


P.


At 03:21 PM 8/14/2006 -0600, you wrote:

I don't believe they hate

Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism

[Philip Winestone]

Yes - good points.  I understand that the US has done some harebrained 
(dare I say flagrantly dishonest?) things during the past century and this 
has rubbed people the wrong way.  Of course ALL of the Western nations - 
many of whom were colonialists - did some dubious things.  Even the jolly 
old Brits, who, believe it or not, supported the Arabs in their war of 
potential annihilation in 1948.


And look at the Italians Descendents of the Romans  You see, it 
starts to get silly.  The Muslims are still bitching about the Crusades


And as for: "The West has systematically done this to the Moslems nations 
over many years."  What the West has done to the Muslims is nothing 
compared to what they have done - or not done - to themselves.  And ask the 
people of India - the Hindus that is - how they were treated by the Moguls 
during their invasions; 70 million killed, among other dreadful and 
disgusting things.  The history of Islam is one of plunder and death.  You 
don't have to do too much to help yourself by creating things - becoming 
industrious - if you can assemble a ruthless army and just TAKE whatever 
you want.


This is all verifiable by various history books.

Aside from what I wrote above about the Americans (whom I still admire 
greatly), a bunch of poor refugees landed at Plymouth Sound several years 
ago and forged, from the ground up, a great, wealthy, risk-taking, 
generous, industrious nation.  With all the untold oil revenues the Arabs 
have, they have done, in comparison, nothing... except build schools of 
indoctrination, and buy weapons for terrorists.


So I don't think we can really talk in this respect about the West stealing 
their water... They really didn't have it in the first place.


P.





At 04:38 PM 8/15/2006 -0600, you wrote:



Philip Winestone wrote:


Good points Ed.
As for the lack of parental control (and ultimately the lack of 
self-control), I think I know what you're getting at; rules in some form 
are very necessary, despite our dislike of people curtailing our 
"freedom" (although the rules, in the case of "honour" killings (I like 
to call them "ego killings") are decidedly less favourable toward women 
than men).
In our case, the pendulum has swung far too far where permissiveness is 
concerned... And I'll let it go at that!!!

As for the "water" analogy, that's a whole discussion in itself.
Briefly, I'm a great admirer of the Americans (I was born and educated in 
Scotland and now live in Canada) because they essentially made their own 
"water" as a nation; took risks and used their resourcefulness to create 
the "water" they now have.  But some (many) people are envious of this 
water - without regard to the blood, sweat and tears that it took to 
create it - and would like to either steal it or spill it on the ground 
just to satisfy this envy.


Here is where we differ.  Although envy is real and can motivate an 
individual for good or ill, I do not think it can mobilize many people and 
cause them to die for the idea.  The root cause has to be a universal 
feeling, like pride, fairness, justice or just plane old self 
defense.  Once these trip wires stir up the emotions, the other side 
naturally finds all kinds of defects in their enemy to justify killing 
them. We all see examples of great wealth in our countries, but very few 
people are motivated to attack these people even if they could. On the 
other hand, if a group attacks us, steals our livelihood, or treats us 
like dirt, must people would be first in line to kill them. The West has 
systematically done this to the Moslems nations over many years. For 
example, we supported the Shaw of Iran even though he was a very unpopular 
dictator. When he was thrown out by popular revolution, we did everything 
we could to intervene. We even supported Iraq in the war between Iran and 
Iraq. We treated the popular will of Iran like dirt. If Mexico had done 
the same thing to us, there would have been war. I find many people in the 
West can not believe our actions are not pure and good. When other people 
object, we believe they must be doing this with bad motives, which 
justifies our increased control.  Of course, things get out of hand, like 
a bar fight after a few punches are thrown.  At this point, being nice 
will not stop the fight.  Only calling the cops will work. But would it 
not be better to know how to keep a bar fight from getting started in the 
first place?  Most people know how prevent pissing the other guy off. The 
US government has never learned this because we were always the biggest 
guy in the bar.  Now, the little guys have learned how to gang up and hit 
us when our back is turned. Being big no longer works.


Ed

P.

At 07:21 PM 8/14/2006 -0600, you wrote:


Philip Winestone wrote:

Tut Tut Ed... The problem is that you believe everyone thinks 
rationally and quasi-legally like you do.  Most don't.



Good point, Philip.  Nevertheless, most people, except the insa

[Vo]:

[ThomasClark123]

The V'ril Energy Generator & Fractal Perfect Societies
 
The V'ril Energy Generator as posted at http://www.onelight.com/vrilland/index.htm used by Buddhist Monks generates energy by replicating a model of the Universe and Solar system in it fractally.  Our solar system is a Binary Star and so may be the Universe a Binary Universe.  
 

I have found that societies can be engineered to appear to be somewhat chaotic, and yet be very ordered as posted at http://www.rhfweb.com/ae - which is the Law of Fractals and Chaos Theory, where complex ordered structures can be generated from small simple structures. 
 
Fractal generators take a basic primitive like a cross symbol which if recursively iterated a certain number of times generates a Swastika, and iterated a few more times generates-the Microsoft Logo, as well as the Flag of the US Government that the Republican Party uses, that looks like a Nazi Flag.  The Swastika is the basic energy circuit symbol that generates unlimited energy and is used in space ships to levitate them.  Structures generated from the Swastika primitive may have a lot of recursive energy in them to help them replicate universally. 

I am learning how to fractally generate legal systems, social systems, and architectural systems from the basic fractal primitives on computer models, so that a perfect society can be created and engineered to fit any culture desired from basic primitives, that makes the society look free and chaotic at times but really is super-ordered.  Societies and legal systems can be engineered to be crime free, and virtually prison free, eternal, beautiful, and perfectly ideal and healthy from some very basic fractal primitives or simple rules, that few  of the modern societies on the Surface of the Earth presently use.  

If one thinks about it, perfect birth control policies solves almost all problems. Children are only born when they are needed, and there is room for them, and are guaranteed healthy happy eternally youthful lives, and may rest in peace in protected cryogenic chambers when they desire by the community as a whole, otherwise they are never born at all. This is one very basic primitive amongst others. 

I have designed the basic model of the architectures of a neighborhood community to match the binary star system, and the binary universal system, where two community center pyramids each representing a star are connected together in the center of the community so that it synchronizes with the binary stars of our solar system and universe to replicate fractaly in it. Each neighborhood being self-sustaining and self-governing is a mini-image of any other group of neighborhoods that make of a town, so that the town is fractal of any neighborhood recursion. 
 
[Prefabricated Community Model Schematic ] 
[Community Virtual Reality Model and Object Data Structures] 
[Prefabricated, automated, secure, & self sustaining community plans & technologies ] 
 
 
 
Best Regards,  Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baronPresident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.htmlArchitectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/aeStar Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/shRadiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baronMaking a difference one person at a timeGet informed. Inform others

Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products

[Robin van Spaandonk]

In reply to  Kyle R. Mcallister's message of Tue, 15 Aug 2006
18:08:48 -0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>- Original Message - 
>From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 11:51 PM
>Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products
>
>> Wrong. Both Jews and Christians *are* doing these things too. The
>> only difference is that the Muslims don't have expensive airplanes
>> to drop their bombs from, and they don't kill as many people.
>
>The Israelis are justified in what they are doing. They have been constantly 
>attacked. Ever heard of "suicide bombers"?

...and exactly why do you think the suicide bombers feel that it
is worth giving up their lives?

>
>If you are equating Christians = Americans, 

..I was including Americans in that category (as well as many
European nations and my own country too (Australia).

>then we are also justified. We 
>were attacked, 

.. yes, but are your *really* sure you know who did it?


>and retaliation is perfectly reasonable. The only question 
>is, in my mind, is it massive enough?

There is every reason to believe that 911 was a "false flag"
operation set up by the World's elite specifically to arouse the
ire of the impressionable masses, including such as yourself -
thus providing an excuse to go to a very profitable war. And even
if that isn't so, there was no reason to bomb the crap out of Iraq
who had nothing to do with it anyway.

America lost about 3000 people in the WTC.
This is how many your bombing killed in Iraq:-
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000

and your administration calls it "collateral damage" and
"doesn't count the number of Iraqi casualties" - of course not,
there were so many that they couldn't keep up with them.

...and then you wonder why they hate your guts? .. they feel
exactly the way you feel Kyle, and both you and they think that
violence will resolve the problem. Ever heard of a Pyrrhic
victory? - because that would be the most probable outcome, if you
both had your way. (No bets on who the "victor" would be).
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

[VO]:Re: New Segway Products

[RC Macaulay]

Robin wrote..
 
Ever heard of a Pyrrhicvictory? - because that would be the most 
probable outcome, if youboth had your way. (No bets on who the "victor" 
would be).
Howdy Robin,
All the above is just an academic argument compared to what is staring 
Australia in the face. An entire continent, underpopulated by mostly European 
Infidels. Just northwest of Australia lies the East Indies with a muslim 
population explosion in progress in a land hungry series of nation islands. When 
its time , they will come knocking on your door. They are already invading 
Australia by the boatloads. Streets in major cities are no longer safe. 
What is your suggested solution?
Richard

[Vo]:

[ThomasClark123]

The V'ril Energy Generator & Fractal Perfect Societies- Resend Due To Title Missing 
 
The V'ril Energy Generator as posted at http://www.onelight.com/vrilland/index.htm used by Buddhist Monks generates energy by replicating a model of the Universe and Solar system in it fractally.  Our solar system is a Binary Star and so may be the Universe a Binary Universe.  
 

I have found that societies can be engineered to appear to be somewhat chaotic, and yet be very ordered as posted at http://www.rhfweb.com/ae - which is the Law of Fractals and Chaos Theory, where complex ordered structures can be generated from small simple structures. 
 
Fractal generators take a basic primitive like a cross symbol which if recursively iterated a certain number of times generates a Swastika, and iterated a few more times generates-the Microsoft Logo, as well as the Flag of the US Government that the Republican Party uses, that looks like a Nazi Flag.  The Swastika is the basic energy circuit symbol that generates unlimited energy and is used in space ships to levitate them.  Structures generated from the Swastika primitive may have a lot of recursive energy in them to help them replicate universally. 

I am learning how to fractally generate legal systems, social systems, and architectural systems from the basic fractal primitives on computer models, so that a perfect society can be created and engineered to fit any culture desired from basic primitives, that makes the society look free and chaotic at times but really is super-ordered.  Societies and legal systems can be engineered to be crime free, and virtually prison free, eternal, beautiful, and perfectly ideal and healthy from some very basic fractal primitives or simple rules, that few  of the modern societies on the Surface of the Earth presently use.  

If one thinks about it, perfect birth control policies solves almost all problems. Children are only born when they are needed, and there is room for them, and are guaranteed healthy happy eternally youthful lives, and may rest in peace in protected cryogenic chambers when they desire by the community as a whole, otherwise they are never born at all. This is one very basic primitive amongst others. 

I have designed the basic model of the architectures of a neighborhood community to match the binary star system, and the binary universal system, where two community center pyramids each representing a star are connected together in the center of the community so that it synchronizes with the binary stars of our solar system and universe to replicate fractaly in it. Each neighborhood being self-sustaining and self-governing is a mini-image of any other group of neighborhoods that make of a town, so that the town is fractal of any neighborhood recursion. 
 
[Prefabricated Community Model Schematic ] 
[Community Virtual Reality Model and Object Data Structures] 
[Prefabricated, automated, secure, & self sustaining community plans & technologies ] 
 
 
 
Best Regards,  Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baronPresident Thomas D. Clark, Email form: http://www.rhfweb.com/emailform.html, Personal Web Page: http://www.rhfweb.com/personal.htmlArchitectural Engineers, http://www.rhfweb.com/aeStar Haven Community Services, at http://www.rhfweb.com/shRadiation Health Foundation Trust at http://www.rhfweb.com/Baron Volsung, www.rhfweb.com/baronMaking a difference one person at a timeGet informed. Inform others

Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products

[Terry Blanton]

On 8/15/06, Robin van Spaandonk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


America lost about 3000 people in the WTC.
This is how many your bombing killed in Iraq:-
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000
3000

and your administration calls it "collateral damage" and
"doesn't count the number of Iraqi casualties" - of course not,
there were so many that they couldn't keep up with them.

...and then you wonder why they hate your guts? .. they feel
exactly the way you feel Kyle, and both you and they think that
violence will resolve the problem. Ever heard of a Pyrrhic
victory? - because that would be the most probable outcome, if you
both had your way. (No bets on who the "victor" would be).


Just wait.  We haven't even *begun* to play cowboys and moslems yet. 

Of course, *your* government is guilt free:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_deaths_in_custody

And this is only part of the story.

http://bible.cc/matthew/7-3.htm

And you don't even have any damned guns to protect yourselves.

"Would you like some free (small pox covered) blankies?"

It's all relative, n'est-ce pas?

Terry

Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products

[Mike Carrell]

- Original Message - 
From: "Harry Veeder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products



Mike Carrell wrote:



The accusation that the US is acting as colonial power in the Iraq 
conflict

is a bit glib. I submit that one general problem that the US has in the
world is that we have no real taste for Empire.




The US out-sourced the task of running an empire.


Interesting. Are you including international commercial licensing as 
'outsourcing empire'? Or outsourcing manufacturing technology and teaching 
other countries the means of quality manufacturing, the better to compete 
with us, as 'outsourcing empire'? Or protecting Japan with a military shield 
so they don't have to invest as heavily in a defense establishment, and 
becoming better competitors as 'outsourcing empire'? Or maintaining a stable 
economy so the US becomes a preferred respository for wealth so that we 
become increaingly dependent on others assuming our debt as 'outsourcing 
empire'? Or allowing foreign investment in, say real estate and auto 
manufacturing here, which are beginning to eclipse our domestic products, as 
'outsourcing empire'?


As I recall we spect great treasure and lives in containing the Soviet use 
of client states to spread communism. or should we be without alliances of 
any kind?


Mike Carrell


Harry



This Email has been scanned for all viruses by Medford Leas I.T. 
Department.

Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism

[Mike Carrell]

- Original Message - 
From: "Robin van Spaandonk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism


I think Robin misses a point here:




IOW the US administration has propped up corrupt puppet
governments that ensured an ongoing flow of cheap oil.


A policy that the US has imperfectly followed is to deal with the government 
of a nation and not to intefere with its internal affairs. [Note I said 
imperfectly, of the US has covertly meddled in the affairs of other nations, 
but not to the extent that Russia did.] This often leaves us in the position 
of  'propping up corrupt governments' to get oil, minerals, or banannas [as 
in 'bananna republics'] What would Robin have us do, foment revolution, 
establish representative government and forced redistribution of wealth? I 
think we tried that in Iraq, and it isn't going well for various reasons.


Where the wealth of a country comes from a valuable, concentrated resource 
like oil, copper, or banannas it is possible for a kelptocracy to form as it 
takes few people to control the operation and support a series of thugs in 
power, wo do not use the welath for the betterment of all the people. And 
all the oil nations are not alike, someof the Emirates are investing their 
welath in the whole populace.


The US often winds up supporting the 'bad guys' as seen from the perspective 
of Austrailia and other nations. Just remember that the finger of greed 
points in all directions.


Mike Carrell 

Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism

[Mike Carrell]

- Original Message - 
From: "Edmund Storms" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Subject: Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism




. For
example, we supported the Shaw of Iran even though he was a very unpopular 
dictator. When he was thrown out by popular revolution, we did everything 
we could to intervene.


At least one reason the US supported the Shah of Iran is that he allowed the 
US to establish secret listening posts near the Soviet missile test ranges, 
where intercepted signals gave clues to the status and caapability of Soviet 
missiles. It was so easy fot US dimplomats to be cozy with the Shah and his 
entourage and ignore reports about this obscure Ayatolla. Some US private 
interests supported early White Russian rebellion against the communists, 
earning decades of distrust of the west.


In the end, the US faced down the communist empire by military challanges it 
could not match, and it collapsed switftly. Would those no so critical of 
the US prefer the scenario of the domination of a command economy?


And, yes, Soviety power in Afghhanastan had to be opposed, as it seems the 
Islamic extremists as well.


We continue to miscalculate the consequences of our actions -- but somehow 
US popular culture is well received in many places, if not the 'thinking 
people' everywhere.


Mike Carrell 

Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products

[Harry Veeder]

Mike Carrell wrote:

> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Harry Veeder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products
> 
> 
>> Mike Carrell wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> The accusation that the US is acting as colonial power in the Iraq
>>> conflict
>>> is a bit glib. I submit that one general problem that the US has in the
>>> world is that we have no real taste for Empire.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The US out-sourced the task of running an empire.
> 
> Interesting. Are you including international commercial licensing as
> 'outsourcing empire'? Or outsourcing manufacturing technology and teaching
> other countries the means of quality manufacturing, the better to compete
> with us, as 'outsourcing empire'?

A mainly capitalist world is what America wants is it not?

> Or protecting Japan with a military shield
> so they don't have to invest as heavily in a defense establishment, and
> becoming better competitors as 'outsourcing empire'? Or maintaining a stable
> economy so the US becomes a preferred respository for wealth so that we
> become increaingly dependent on others assuming our debt as 'outsourcing
> empire'? Or allowing foreign investment in, say real estate and auto
> manufacturing here, which are beginning to eclipse our domestic products, as
> 'outsourcing empire'?

So what? The British Empire had slums at home.


> As I recall we spect great treasure and lives in containing the Soviet use
> of client states to spread communism. or should we be without alliances of
> any kind?
> 
> Mike Carrell



Harry

Re: [Vo]: New Segway Products

[Robin van Spaandonk]

In reply to  Terry Blanton's message of Tue, 15 Aug 2006 21:55:57
-0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Just wait.  We haven't even *begun* to play cowboys and moslems yet. 

Then don't cry a poor mouth when they do the same.

>
>Of course, *your* government is guilt free:

I never said the Australian government was guilt free, and I try
to vote them out of office at every opportunity, however I'm
fighting an uphill battle against the mortgage belt.

(and BTW your government isn't even *your* government - having
stolen the election).

>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboriginal_deaths_in_custody
>
>And this is only part of the story.
>
>http://bible.cc/matthew/7-3.htm

Advice we could all take to heart.

>
>And you don't even have any damned guns to protect yourselves.

Guns are of little value when one is being bombed from 3 feet.

>
>"Would you like some free (small pox covered) blankies?"

That was terrible and I make no excuses for them, and I certainly
don't say "We are in the right, and should be bombing the crap out
of them".

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

Re: [VO]:Re: New Segway Products

[Robin van Spaandonk]

In reply to  RC Macaulay's message of Tue, 15 Aug 2006 20:41:37
-0500:
Hi,
[snip]
>Howdy Robin,
>
>All the above is just an academic argument compared to what is staring 
>Australia in the face. An entire continent, underpopulated by mostly European 
>Infidels. Just northwest of Australia lies the East Indies with a muslim 
>population explosion in progress in a land hungry series of nation islands. 
>When its time , they will come knocking on your door. They are already 
>invading Australia by the boatloads. Streets in major cities are no longer 
>safe. 
>
>What is your suggested solution?

Let them all in. With CF Australia would easily support the same
population as the US. The huge decrease in population density and
increase in standard of living that ensued for the "teaming
hordes" would cool their fervor.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

Re: [Vo]: Smokerings in vacuum

[Robin van Spaandonk]

In reply to  David Jonsson's message of Tue, 15 Aug 2006 18:55:31
+0200:
Hi,
[snip]
>Hi
>
>Check theese photos and tell me if there could be a white smokering coming
>out in the upper right.
>http://www.newphys.se/Endeavour_smokering/
>
>David
In cinema movies they put a couple of rings in the upper right
hand corner near the end of the film (usually yellowish), to warn
the operator to change reels.
Could this be related?
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism

[Robin van Spaandonk]

In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:36:28
-0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>Put them in charge of a cold fusion desalination megaproject to 
>transform the region they will never again contemplate suicide!
>

Correct! - even just a chance to work on the project in any
capacity.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism

[Robin van Spaandonk]

In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Mon, 14 Aug 2006 18:36:28
-0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>When you give any 
>group of people a reasonably peaceful, fair, orderly society to live 
>in and they will always do fine.

Correct again. The average man on the street just wants a
reasonable chance at a future for himself and his family (in all
countries).

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

Re: [Vo]: OFF TOPIC How to deal with terrorism

[Robin van Spaandonk]

In reply to  Mike Carrell's message of Tue, 15 Aug 2006 22:08:20
-0400:
Hi,
[snip]
>What would Robin have us do, foment revolution, 
>establish representative government and forced redistribution of wealth?

No, if the US stops supplying such governments with arms,
ammunition, and training for their armed forces, the people
themselves have a much better chance of overthrowing their corrupt
governments. 

> I 
>think we tried that in Iraq, and it isn't going well for various reasons.

No, that is not what your government is trying to do in Iraq, it's
just what they tell you they are trying to do, because they know
it will sound good to you. You really need to take a look at who
is benefiting from this war (hint look up "Carlyle Group"), and
contrast that with who is paying for it.

>
>Where the wealth of a country comes from a valuable, concentrated resource 
>like oil, copper, or banannas it is possible for a kelptocracy to form as it 
>takes few people to control the operation and support a series of thugs in 
>power, wo do not use the welath for the betterment of all the people. 

Indeed, but as I said above, they tend not to do so well when
military support is missing. (And BTW I agree that the US is not
the only guilty party in this regard - all the major powers have
had a hand in it).

>And 
>all the oil nations are not alike, someof the Emirates are investing their 
>welath in the whole populace.

Also true, at the least, in the form of very cheap gasoline.

>
>The US often winds up supporting the 'bad guys' as seen from the perspective 
>of Austrailia and other nations. Just remember that the finger of greed 
>points in all directions.

Indeed, which is why we need to follow it to find a real solution
to the problem.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rvanspaa/

Competition provides the motivation,
Cooperation provides the means.

Re: [Vo]: Re: What is HTP ?

[thomas malloy]

Terry Blanton wrote:




I was starting one of my small engines this weekend when I realized
that the fuel I was using and the "charged water" constituted the
ingredients for one of the bombs that were thwarted in London
(nitromethane and H2O2).

Does anyone know what nitromethane smells like? it would seem to me that 
it would have a strong chemical odor. What about the HTP? It would seem 
to me that it would be like my 2% HP on steroids. There's no mistaking 
it for water.


I read Chemistry of Powders and Explosives. The author mentioned liquid 
explosives developed by the French during WW I. I've forgotten the 
chemical names, but there would be no mistaking them for water, or 
moisturizing gel either.


I'm mentioning this because the TSA started confiscating all water and 
gels. Typical hamhanded bureaucratic response.




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[Vo]: energy and practical operation [OPEN DISCUSSION ON TOPIC]

[john herman]

  Dear  Vo,
 
 I see many posts about:
 
 i]   politic
 
 ii] energy and what may be politic
 
 iii]   energy, what may be politic
 
 
   OPEN  
 
 FOR THE SAKE OF REFRESHMENT:
 
 Will any vo contribute to the following general topic, from their personal work or work that is know to have been by other persons... and please give credit where due:
 
    1]  electrolysis of water, current, voltage, electrode types, spacing and surface areas of electrodes, evolution of gases... what gasses.
 
   1]  (A)  Water vapor and contribution of vapor
    (B)  Temperatures of reactions
 
 2]    Have any vo used catalytic action with-of -for lysis of water 
   (all of the above applies, please)
 
 3]  Real world work and utilization of the evolved gases as opposed to
    "what a mathmatical model" may predict.
 3]   (A)  OK for the math... but let us also see the comparison 
   PLEASE
 
 ===
 
    THERMAL
 
   1]  DIRECT CONVERSION OF ENERGY... THERMAL TO:
 
    i]  electrical
    ii]  mechanical
    2]   Manifold step energy conversion
 
    =
 
 Multiple work
 
   Production of energy from the sun... and using any extra heat for
   production of clean water
 
===
 
 OTHER methods for making energy not covered in the above
 
_
 
 
   How about a survey of results, knowledge and practice.?
 
  Either this HAS to be fun that people-politic back-and-forth
 
 OR:
 
    Many of the Vo who have real background have left, will only lurk, forgot what they may have know ... or something else
 
 curious about the something else??
 
 I am 

[Vo]: Re: physics of the expanding Earth Theory

[thomas malloy]

I sent the following to Hal Puthoff.


Dear Hal;

Last night there was an advocate of the expanding earth theory 
interviewed on C to C AM. He raised the argument that the dinosars 
were too big for their bones to support them in the present gravity.


His solution is the expanding Earth Theory. His website has a series 
of pictures showing how he believes this happened. The pictures look 
good, but he is a professional artist.


Then he mentioned subatomic particles. This webpage gives an 
explanation of why this happened.


http://www.nealadams.com/PhysicsOfGrow.html








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