Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
I am way behind on reading. I hope this is not redundant. It appears the same pump is being used 6 Oct 2011 as in all the prior tests. See: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3284823.ece I wonder what the 4 pumps are for? Eventually pumping water into the heat exchanger? That would be excellent, if the flow rate could be reduced, and highly controlled. It appears there is tubing on the pumps. Could the pumps have been used in an earlier test and discarded? At 2:37 the old yellow pump can be seen. It appears it was used to pump the E-cat input water as usual. At 0:21 in video at this point we have been going for several hours. One hour or so ago we went into self sustained mode. At this point in the Lewan video I counted 41 strokes per minute of the pump. Based on Matiia Rizzi's comments below, that is a maximum flow rate of (41 str/min)*(2 ml/Str)*(1 min)/(60 sec) = 1.37 ml/sec, or 4.9 liters per hour. I wonder how a pump with a maximum flow rate of 12 liters/hr could pump 15 liters/hr? On Oct 11, 2011, at 8:19 AM, Peter Heckert wrote: Rossi wrote: 15kg/h here: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/? p=510cpage=20#comment-94236 Peter Heckert October 10th, 2011 at 1:17 AM Mr. Rossi, Could you tell the primary flow rate of the peristaltic pump? Unfortunately this was not documented. From this we could get an optimistic upper limit for the energy generated, if we assume all water was vaporized. Andrea Rossi October 10th, 2011 at 4:48 AM Dear Peter Heckert: Good question. The primary circuit flow rate has been 15 kg/h of water. Warm Regards, A.R. On Aug 23, 2011, at 12:46 PM, Mattia Rizzi wrote: And the water flow can’t be 7 liter/h since the pump is pumping every 2.5-3 seconds, so the true water flow is lower than 3 liter/h LMI P18 pump has a maximum flow of 12 l/h at 100 strikes/minutes. With 25 strikes/minute is (maximum) 3 l/h. It can be lower than 3 liter/h. On Aug 24, 2011, at 6:59 AM, Mattia Rizzi wrote: Again, if you write “7 l/h flow” you are talking about the test done in june, with Krivit. In june, there wan’t a weight scale, only a “Rossi said” that he controlled the flow by weighting it. But is a “Rossi said”. What we really know is the pump used, an LMI P18, and we know that the maximum flow is 12 l/h at 100 strokes/min. Since you can hear in Krivit video that the pump is stroking every 2.5-3 seconds, according to the manual the maximu flow rate achievable with 25 strokes/min is 3 liter/h. That’s a fact, not a “Rossi said”. On Aug 25, 2011, at 9:32 AM, Mattia Rizzi wrote: It’s a dosimetric pump. In every stroke it can inject a maximum volume of 2ml of water (volume is regulable) It’s regulable from 20 to 100 strokes/minute. So with a 100 strokes/min and a volume of 2ml, the pump is running witha flow of 12 liter/h. With 25 strokes/min, the pump is running up to 3liter/h (but it can be lower since volume is adjustable). kind regards, Peter Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
Am 11.10.2011 21:12, schrieb Horace Heffner: I wonder how a pump with a maximum flow rate of 12 liters/hr could pump 15 liters/hr? Quite often values given in datasheets are not hard limits. Possibly it can do this, but is not specified for this. This would mean it cannot reach the specified pressure and/or precision at this rate.
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: Report of 28 april: http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3166569.ece/BINARY/Report+test+of+E-cat+28+April+2011.pdf As you can hear, the stroke frequency is around 32 strokes/minute, which equals to a maximum flow of 3.8 liters/h (= 12.1 * 32/100) From 28 april report: Tot flow in 3:06 (3.1) h 11707 grams, which means 3.8 kg/h (1 liter of water = 1 kg) In June video, the stroke frequency is 25 strokes/minute, equal to a maximum of 3 liter/h. But Rossi said to krivit a flow of 7 liter/h. . . . Ah, I see your point. I agree that if this is the same pump and if they did not weigh the water during the Krivit test, then the reported flow rate may be wrong. I suppose it is the same pump, but I wouldn't know. Lewan's report is more informative than Krivit's, isn't it? I wish that Krivit had told us less about the guy removing the coffee machine, and more about the instruments and procedures in the test. - Jed
[Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
if this is the same pump It’s the same dirty pump as you can see from videos and photos. if they did not weigh the water Again, is a “Rossi said”. Lewan's report is more informative than Krivit's, isn't it? In krivit’s video Rossi said that water flow was 7 kg/h. Rossi is lying. From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 3:44 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: Report of 28 april: http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3166569.ece/BINARY/Report+test+of+E-cat+28+April+2011.pdf As you can hear, the stroke frequency is around 32 strokes/minute, which equals to a maximum flow of 3.8 liters/h (= 12.1 * 32/100) From 28 april report: Tot flow in 3:06 (3.1) h 11707 grams, which means 3.8 kg/h (1 liter of water = 1 kg) In June video, the stroke frequency is 25 strokes/minute, equal to a maximum of 3 liter/h. But Rossi said to krivit a flow of 7 liter/h. . . . Ah, I see your point. I agree that if this is the same pump and if they did not weigh the water during the Krivit test, then the reported flow rate may be wrong. I suppose it is the same pump, but I wouldn't know. Lewan's report is more informative than Krivit's, isn't it? I wish that Krivit had told us less about the guy removing the coffee machine, and more about the instruments and procedures in the test. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
How do you know that 1 click = 1 pump?
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
On Aug 25, 2011 5:45 PM, Mattia Rizzi wrote: In krivit’s video Rossi said that water flow was 7 kg/h. Rossi is lying. This is obvious. But question is why Rossi did lie in such a trivial way that everyone can see it? Lie was so obvious, that it cannot be because Rossi wanted to mislead somebody, because he could have trivially faked the demo with hidden power source. It only lasted for 20 min. Therefore we must conclude that it was all planned from the beginning that Krivit will expose this lie. Question is why such a plan? I must remind you all, that all public E-Cat demonstrations could have been faked with 200g hydrogen bottle. Such a small bottle can be hidden easily, but I am sure that David Copperfield could have come up even more clever illusions, if this had been the point. Therefore scientific relevance of public demonstrations is zero. —Joubi
[Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
It’s a dosimetric pump. In every stroke it can inject a maximum volume of 2ml of water (volume is regulable) It’s regulable from 20 to 100 strokes/minute. So with a 100 strokes/min and a volume of 2ml, the pump is running witha flow of 12 liter/h. With 25 strokes/min, the pump is running up to 3liter/h (but it can be lower since volume is adjustable). From: Daniel Rocha Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 7:05 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates How do you know that 1 click = 1 pump?
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
I wrote: I believe I saw a longer one somewhere. Will ask Lewan. I stand corrected. Lewan said he has no videos of steam longer than this. Here is his entire response, with permission: Jed, I only observed the tube held upright once and did not study it carefully. There did come some water spurts after some time, but I couldn’t tell after how long time. My interpretation though is that Rick’s simulator runs below what Alan calls the dry-out point, and the only way that you can make it similar to what I observed is by cutting off the water flow (case A), thus eliminating the overflow at the outlet which is inevitable when you are below dry-out point. I’m fairly convinced that the Ecat I observed run above dry-out point, due to my conclusions from the temperature at the outlet. But as the input heat power supposedly was larger than in Rick’s simulator, the amount of condensed water should have been larger than in case A below, and consequently spurting might have occurred faster. And as far as I can see in Rick’s video, the steam flow from his simulator was weaker than the flow I observed. Mats
[Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
Again, if you write “7 l/h flow” you are talking about the test done in june, with Krivit. In june, there wan’t a weight scale, only a “Rossi said” that he controlled the flow by weighting it. But is a “Rossi said”. What we really know is the pump used, an LMI P18, and we know that the maximum flow is 12 l/h at 100 strokes/min. Since you can hear in Krivit video that the pump is stroking every 2.5-3 seconds, according to the manual the maximu flow rate achievable with 25 strokes/min is 3 liter/h. That’s a fact, not a “Rossi said”. From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 10:56 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates Mattia Rizzi wrote: And the water flow can’t be 7 liter/h since the pump is pumping every 2.5-3 seconds, so the true water flow is lower than 3 liter/h LMI P18 pump has a maximum flow of 12 l/h at 100 strikes/minutes. With 25 strikes/minute is (maximum) 3 l/h. It can be lower than 3 liter/h. As I have pointed out several times, the flow was confirmed with a weight scale, so evidently that is incorrect. You cannot argue with instruments. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
How do you know that 1 stroke = 1 click?
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: Again, if you write “7 l/h flow” you are talking about the test done in june, with Krivit. In june, there wan’t a weight scale . . . That is not clear. There may have been one. In any case, this same argument about how the pump works has been raised regarding earlier tests in which the weight scale was definitely there. It is shown in the photos and Celani and others told me they observed it. People have argued that the noise from the pump in these earlier tests mean the flow rate must have been lower, but these people are wrong. You can't argue with a weight scale and a clock. Since you can hear in Krivit video that the pump is stroking every 2.5-3 seconds, according to the manual the maximu flow rate achievable with 25 strokes/min is 3 liter/h. That’s a fact, not a “Rossi said”. I have written manuals for hardware and software products, and I have read many other manuals. Nothing in a manual should be construed as a fact. Manuals are more a work of imagination, reflecting the product designer's fond hopes. To paraphrase Pirates of the Caribbean, the manual is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual specifications. Besides, most of the time, they pack the wrong manual in with the hardware, and the right one hasn't been uploaded yet. - Jed
[Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
You can't argue with a weight scale and a clock Yeah. There is a problem: in Lewan’s test, where the flow was accurately measured by an independent observer (Lewan), the noise from the pump is consistent with the water flow written inside the report. But in June, when the water flow is another “Rossi said”, the noise from the pump is inconsistent with the declared flow. I SEE A PATTERN. Manuals are more a work of imagination Are you kidding? There are specifications from LMI! From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 8:36 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: Again, if you write “7 l/h flow” you are talking about the test done in june, with Krivit. In june, there wan’t a weight scale . . . That is not clear. There may have been one. In any case, this same argument about how the pump works has been raised regarding earlier tests in which the weight scale was definitely there. It is shown in the photos and Celani and others told me they observed it. People have argued that the noise from the pump in these earlier tests mean the flow rate must have been lower, but these people are wrong. You can't argue with a weight scale and a clock. Since you can hear in Krivit video that the pump is stroking every 2.5-3 seconds, according to the manual the maximu flow rate achievable with 25 strokes/min is 3 liter/h. That’s a fact, not a “Rossi said”. I have written manuals for hardware and software products, and I have read many other manuals. Nothing in a manual should be construed as a fact. Manuals are more a work of imagination, reflecting the product designer's fond hopes. To paraphrase Pirates of the Caribbean, the manual is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual specifications. Besides, most of the time, they pack the wrong manual in with the hardware, and the right one hasn't been uploaded yet. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah. There is a problem: in Lewan’s test, where the flow was accurately measured by an independent observer (Lewan), the noise from the pump is consistent with the water flow written inside the report. Which report by Lewan do you refer to? What is the URL, and where is his statement about measuring the flow rate? I do not recall this. - Jed
[Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter/energi_miljo/energi/article3166552.ece (with a video done for the 28 april test) Report of 28 april: http://www.nyteknik.se/incoming/article3166569.ece/BINARY/Report+test+of+E-cat+28+April+2011.pdf As you can hear, the stroke frequency is around 32 strokes/minute, which equals to a maximum flow of 3.8 liters/h (= 12.1 * 32/100) From 28 april report: Tot flow in 3:06 (3.1) h 11707 grams, which means 3.8 kg/h (1 liter of water = 1 kg) In June video, the stroke frequency is 25 strokes/minute, equal to a maximum of 3 liter/h. But Rossi said to krivit a flow of 7 liter/h. The only way to achieve such flow is a strokes frequency of 60 strokes/minute, one stroke every second. So, i see a pattern. When it’s a “Rossi said” we have the pump working over-specification, when there is an indepenent observer (doing a control of the flow) the pump is working as specification. From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Wednesday, August 24, 2011 11:33 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates Mattia Rizzi mattia.ri...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah. There is a problem: in Lewan’s test, where the flow was accurately measured by an independent observer (Lewan), the noise from the pump is consistent with the water flow written inside the report. Which report by Lewan do you refer to? What is the URL, and where is his statement about measuring the flow rate? I do not recall this. - Jed
[Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
In krivit’s video the bucket is removed for around 30seconds, not few minutes. From 11:10 to 11:20 and from 11:26 to 11:46 (SEE KRIVIT’S VIDEO) And the water flow can’t be 7 liter/h since the pump is pumping every 2.5-3 seconds, so the true water flow is lower than 3 liter/h LMI P18 pump has a maximum flow of 12 l/h at 100 strikes/minutes. With 25 strikes/minute is (maximum) 3 l/h. It can be lower than 3 liter/h. From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 10:32 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Rossi Steam Quality Updates Horace Heffner hheff...@mtaonline.net wrote: This does not happen with the eCat, as shown in the videos made by Lewan. How is it shown by Lewan's videos that water does not overflow from the E-Cat? In some of the videos he showed the hose removed from the bucket for a few minutes with steam emerging. There were no periodic slugs of water (or percolating) during this time. As Alan Fletcher points out, at 7 L/h and only 800 W there should be percolating every 7 s or so, and at 5 L/h it should happen roughly every 30 s, assuming it works like the Cantwell simulation. Even if these numbers are off, there would be some percolation. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
Mattia Rizzi wrote: In krivit’s video the bucket is removed for around 30seconds, not few minutes. From 11:10 to 11:20 and from 11:26 to 11:46 (SEE KRIVIT’S VIDEO) That is correct, but I saw a longer video from Lewan. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
Mattia Rizzi wrote: And the water flow can’t be 7 liter/h since the pump is pumping every 2.5-3 seconds, so the true water flow is lower than 3 liter/h LMI P18 pump has a maximum flow of 12 l/h at 100 strikes/minutes. With 25 strikes/minute is (maximum) 3 l/h. It can be lower than 3 liter/h. As I have pointed out several times, the flow was confirmed with a weight scale, so evidently that is incorrect. You cannot argue with instruments. - Jed
[Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
In this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVEBCN6D13w ? (lewan in april) Again, you can see it (removed from water) at 3:17 to 3:37, 20 seconds. And in this video you can hear that there is some (liquid water) since is very noisy. From: Jed Rothwell Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2011 10:51 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates Mattia Rizzi wrote: In krivit’s video the bucket is removed for around 30seconds, not few minutes. From 11:10 to 11:20 and from 11:26 to 11:46 (SEE KRIVIT’S VIDEO) That is correct, but I saw a longer video from Lewan. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Rossi Steam Quality Updates
Mattia Rizzi wrote: In this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVEBCN6D13w ? (lewan in april) Again, you can see it (removed from water) at 3:17 to 3:37, 20 seconds. And in this video you can hear that there is some (liquid water) since is very noisy. I believe I saw a longer one somewhere. Will ask Lewan. - Jed
