RE: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
Grok is a coward. If he really believed what he was preaching, then he wouldn't be afraid to use his real name. I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has apologized at one time or another... It's what a person with integrity does when they realize their mistake or transgression. The fact that grok is incapable of such behavior (all he knows is arrogance and condescension), shows his true self; one lacking humility, reflection, self-awareness consciousness... Asking for an apology and real name are justified in this instance. He will, or already has, tried to blame others for his situation; he needs to point the finger in his direction. I doubt if he is even capable of that... Personal responsibility is something he hasn't shown either. -Mark -Original Message- From: William Beaty [mailto:bi...@eskimo.com] Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:54 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote: Grok said no thanks, to the above. I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings, Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB. If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be written in the rules. Nope. If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw complaints from the entire community, then I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrary and mysterious requirements on a whim. As with any professional community, people with real names are welcome, and people who hide their identities have marked themselves as probably criminal element in the eyes of the group ...although on internet, anonymity also means teenager, or newbie user. (Which of the three is worse?) To impress fellow professionals, always put your address and phone number in your sig. This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the entire world, not just online or on vortex: try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happens. Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but it's much work to do it right (to avoid fake identities.) If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, instead of There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vortex-L. However, people who habitually use personal insults will attract complaints from the entire community, and then... (see above.) (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.55/2160 - Release Date: 06/07/09 05:53:00 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.55/2160 - Release Date: 06/07/09 05:53:00
Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Mark S Bilk wrote: I should have stood up for Grok, because his comments (at least the ones I read) were accurate, His online behavior attracted complaints. Obviously his politics are not the issue. Perhaps you didn't read enough of his messages? Bill, please reinstate Grok under the sole condition that he post non-scientific messages only to the B list. He's still on B, no problem there. Or should that be /B/ ?:) VortexB is the barroom where it's OK to start heated religious arguments, while using insults to pick fights, while jumping up and down in front of authority figures with your pants pulled down. However, politics and religion are extremely unwise for any forum except those created specifically for those topics. It's another unwritten rule of all online communities everywhere. Same as don't post personal insults, or don't ignore complaints from neighbors. Many forums ban politics totally. As to requiring him to reveal his identity, as Harry says, that's unfair unless it's demanded of everyone. And arbitrary. Don't forget arbitrary. :) When someone misbehaves, AND ignores all the complaints from neighbors, AND the people start calling the police ...for that someone, the old rules no longer apply. This goes for everyone here, but you knew that. As for apologizing... that's too close to the way the Catholic Church treated Galileo, demanding that he recant. The church had it exactly right, but only for small churches rather than continent-wide monopolies. If you want admission back into this small community, you must bow and scrape to the angry members you've offended and display your throat to the Alpha and apologize for the trouble while sincerely promising everyone that you'll avoid causing harm in the future. When normal community members mess up, they admit it, and they usually apologize automatically. It keeps these kinds of problems from growing wildly. Some people don't know how to damp out the growth of community conflict. Or they place zero value on their community membership, prefer to remain invasive outsiders, and they could care less if neighbors turn against them. A definition of troll could be: lacks all those human skills which causes teamwork to spontaneously arise. Or more like: if he behaved that way in the real offline world, he would have got himself beaten to death years ago. (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
My email doesnt have my real name anymore, due to a few reasons, but its the one i use becuase its my main email. i could easily resubscribe to this list with one that has my name. enh. For all those defending him, i agree with grok politically more than i do anyone else here, it seems, but the way he handled things was in poor taste. On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 10:54 PM, William Beatybi...@eskimo.com wrote: On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote: Grok said no thanks, to the above. I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings, Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB. If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be written in the rules. Nope. If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw complaints from the entire community, then I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrary and mysterious requirements on a whim. As with any professional community, people with real names are welcome, and people who hide their identities have marked themselves as probably criminal element in the eyes of the group ...although on internet, anonymity also means teenager, or newbie user. (Which of the three is worse?) To impress fellow professionals, always put your address and phone number in your sig. This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the entire world, not just online or on vortex: try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happens. Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but it's much work to do it right (to avoid fake identities.) If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, instead of There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vortex-L. However, people who habitually use personal insults will attract complaints from the entire community, and then... (see above.) (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
RE: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Mark Iverson wrote: I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has apologized at one time or another... It's what a person with integrity does when they realize their mistake or transgression. Trademarks of the troll/flamer/fsckhead are, refusal to apologize, plus use of anonymous IDs to prevent any searches which would expose discussions of their misbehavior or history of being banned from many forums. Megalothymia - the need to be seen as being superior to other people. See this article: http://amasci.com/weird/fsckhead.html - A Troll Must Have An Exaggerated Sense of His/Her Own Importance - A Troll Must Refuse to Abide By Common Social Rules - A Troll Must Never Back Down When Caught In A Lie - A Troll Must Keep Coming Back Without Mending His/Her Ways My own secret: this describes everyone in my family, myself included! I've grown some since then though. Seen from inside, additional characteristics are: demonizing everyone around us, while spouting a stream of self-praise, self-aggrandizement. (It's because of an insecurity so profound that the alternative to self-prase is psychosis.) Other characteristics are: loner, warrior, solitary hunter, won't keep his lawn mowed or house painted, won't tolerate crowds, sees other people as opponents searching for weakness, or as cattle. We end up as criminals and transients, but also as police, also as political leaders. The village hangman doesn't get invited to many parties, but doesn't really notice. He will, or already has, tried to blame others for Trolls will frequently use a persecution defense when they are asked to cease their antisocial behavior. They may claim that they are being singled out because of their unpopular viewpoints (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
On Sun, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:48:07PM -0700, Mark Iverson wrote: Grok is a coward. If he really believed what he was preaching, then he wouldn't be afraid to use his real name. The U.S. government has said that people who deny the government story about 9/11, or who want the government to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with Al-Qaeda. U.S. government legislation and executive orders provide that suspected terrorists can be arrested, denied the legal rights provided in the Constitution, tortured, and killed. So anyone who speaks out against U.S. government policies is well justified in doing so anonymously. In this case anonymity does _not_ mean probably criminal element ...teenager, or newbie user. Furthermore, Grok has _not_ [drawn] complaints from the entire community I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has apologized at one time or another... It's what a person with integrity does when they realize their mistake or transgression. The fact that grok is incapable of such behavior (all he knows is arrogance and condescension), shows his true self; one lacking humility, reflection, self-awareness consciousness... Asking for an apology and real name are justified in this instance. He will, or already has, tried to blame others for his situation; he needs to point the finger in his direction. I doubt if he is even capable of that... Personal responsibility is something he hasn't shown either. That's an ad hominem attack made without supporting evidence. Mark S Bilk http://www.cosmicpenguin.com -Original Message- From: William Beaty [mailto:bi...@eskimo.com] Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 10:54 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote: Grok said no thanks, to the above. I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings, Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB. If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be written in the rules. Nope. If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw complaints from the entire community, then I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrary and mysterious requirements on a whim. As with any professional community, people with real names are welcome, and people who hide their identities have marked themselves as probably criminal element in the eyes of the group ...although on internet, anonymity also means teenager, or newbie user. (Which of the three is worse?) To impress fellow professionals, always put your address and phone number in your sig. This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the entire world, not just online or on vortex: try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happens. Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but it's much work to do it right (to avoid fake identities.) If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, instead of There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vortex-L. However, people who habitually use personal insults will attract complaints from the entire community, and then... (see above.)
Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
Here I was thinking this whole terrorist thing was a bull crap, but now I see there are terrorists literally everywhere, even on this list, even on the chair I'm sitting in... I guess if you have a web of lies anyone who insists on the truth becomes a terrorist... The U.S. government has said that people who deny the government story about 9/11, or who want the government to obey the Constitution, or who oppose the war against Iraq, etc., are to be suspected as terrorists allied with Al-Qaeda.
Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
On Mon, 8 Jun 2009, John Berry wrote: I guess if you have a web of lies anyone who insists on the truth becomes a terrorist... No, that's just dishonest. The truth is simple: anyone who posts political observations to a list that has a ban on politics... may attract a moderator response designed to get them to pay attention. (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
RE: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
You know what they say... If it looks, walks and quacks like a duck (troll), it probably is. -Mark -Original Message- From: William Beaty [mailto:bi...@eskimo.com] Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 12:52 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Mark Iverson wrote: I think most everyone I'm aware of on this list has apologized at one time or another... It's what a person with integrity does when they realize their mistake or transgression. Trademarks of the troll/flamer/fsckhead are, refusal to apologize, plus use of anonymous IDs to prevent any searches which would expose discussions of their misbehavior or history of being banned from many forums. Megalothymia - the need to be seen as being superior to other people. See this article: http://amasci.com/weird/fsckhead.html - A Troll Must Have An Exaggerated Sense of His/Her Own Importance - A Troll Must Refuse to Abide By Common Social Rules - A Troll Must Never Back Down When Caught In A Lie - A Troll Must Keep Coming Back Without Mending His/Her Ways My own secret: this describes everyone in my family, myself included! I've grown some since then though. Seen from inside, additional characteristics are: demonizing everyone around us, while spouting a stream of self-praise, self-aggrandizement. (It's because of an insecurity so profound that the alternative to self-prase is psychosis.) Other characteristics are: loner, warrior, solitary hunter, won't keep his lawn mowed or house painted, won't tolerate crowds, sees other people as opponents searching for weakness, or as cattle. We end up as criminals and transients, but also as police, also as political leaders. The village hangman doesn't get invited to many parties, but doesn't really notice. He will, or already has, tried to blame others for Trolls will frequently use a persecution defense when they are asked to cease their antisocial behavior. They may claim that they are being singled out because of their unpopular viewpoints (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.56/2162 - Release Date: 06/08/09 06:01:00
Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Horace Heffner wrote: Long term contributers of scientific discussion here are typically tolerated more than newcomers, I've noticed that it's not the length of time a person has been here. Instead, what makes all the difference is their willingness to become part of the community, versus remaining forever outside. For instance, if several users criticize a newcomer, does the newcomer apologize and change their behavior? That's what group members do. That's how anyone can quickly become accepted. They submit to the will of the group, and they try to obey the standards of that particular online community. Or does the newcomer insult fellow users, ignore all criticism, or perhaps label it as manipulation etc? That's what individualist non-cooperators do. They spit on community standards; consider them appropriate only for sheep, if they notice them at all. It's the solitary type, versus the normal humans who form teams/clubs/communities. Perhaps I should just add a few words of community standards to the greeting message (but no new rules.) (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, William Beaty wrote: To resubscribe, I require that he apologize for his off-topic postings, reveal his identity, and promise to eliminate all political commentary. Grok said no thanks, to the above. (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
William Beaty wrote: On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, William Beaty wrote: To resubscribe, I require that he apologize for his off-topic postings, reveal his identity, and promise to eliminate all political commentary. Grok said no thanks, to the above. I say good riddence to the troll. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
- Original Message - From: William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009 10:30 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, William Beaty wrote: To resubscribe, I require that he apologize for his off-topic postings, reveal his identity, and promise to eliminate all political commentary. Grok said no thanks, to the above. I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings, since the occasional off topic postings are permitted as long they include the label 'Off-Topic' or 'OT' in the header. If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be written in the rules. If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, instead of responding in kind or challenging the commentary, the insult should first be pointed out to the moderator. Harry
Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
I should have stood up for Grok, because his comments (at least the ones I read) were accurate, but I was busy at the time. Grok, I'm sorry I let you down. Folks, see my website for evidence that supports Grok's political/economic analysis: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/ I think he (and everyone else) should be allowed unrestricted posting to the VoB list (except for commercial spam, of course). If we've all been subscribed to it all along, then no one has been using it except very recently, so it may as well be used freely for so-called off topic messages. Actually, unless people develop a lot more awareness of what's going on politically and economically, and join the struggle against the very greedy and evil ones that control our world, we're all in for a very bad time. So Grok's messages really aren't off topic, but if some people don't want to see them, then his posting them to the B list seems like an excellent solution, because those who don't want to see them can unsubscribe from it. Bill, please reinstate Grok under the sole condition that he post non-scientific messages only to the B list. As to requiring him to reveal his identity, as Harry says, that's unfair unless it's demanded of everyone. As for apologizing... that's too close to the way the Catholic Church treated Galileo, demanding that he recant. Grok, I'm putting you on my personal mailing list. If you have one, please put me on it. Mark On Sun, Jun 07, 2009 at 11:27:41PM -0400, Harry Veeder wrote: - Original Message - From: William Beaty bi...@eskimo.com Date: Sunday, June 7, 2009 10:30 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, William Beaty wrote: To resubscribe, I require that he apologize for his off-topic postings, reveal his identity, and promise to eliminate all political commentary. Grok said no thanks, to the above. I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings, since the occasional off topic postings are permitted as long they include the label 'Off-Topic' or 'OT' in the header. If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be written in the rules. If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, instead of responding in kind or challenging the commentary, the insult should first be pointed out to the moderator. Harry
Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
On Sun, 7 Jun 2009, Harry Veeder wrote: Grok said no thanks, to the above. I am not sure why he should apologize for his off-topic postings, Political posting sent here, rather than to vtxB. If you expect him to reveal his true identity then that should be written in the rules. Nope. If any user misbehaves so badly that they draw complaints from the entire community, then I'll fix the problem, which includes crafting arbitrary and mysterious requirements on a whim. As with any professional community, people with real names are welcome, and people who hide their identities have marked themselves as probably criminal element in the eyes of the group ...although on internet, anonymity also means teenager, or newbie user. (Which of the three is worse?) To impress fellow professionals, always put your address and phone number in your sig. This is an unwritten societal rule which applies to the entire world, not just online or on vortex: try walking around downtown wearing a mask, see what happens. Perhaps vortex should require surrendering anonymity, but it's much work to do it right (to avoid fake identities.) If the political commentary incorporates *personal* insults, instead of There is very specifically no rule against insults on Vortex-L. However, people who habitually use personal insults will attract complaints from the entire community, and then... (see above.) (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
William Beaty wrote: To resubscribe, I require that he apologize for his off-topic postings, reveal his identity, and promise to eliminate all political commentary. I'd like to require him spell properly. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
Horace's comments are thoughtful. I'm also aware that Mr. Heffner has most likely been a member of the Vort Collective far longer than I, and as such, has earned certain privileges that seniority bestows when expressing policy matters. If one adheres to the spirit of Vort-etiquette it would appear that I am frequently in violation because many of my posts expand topics of discussion into non-scientific lines of thought. As such, I stand guilty of instigating many Vort infractions. Fortunately for me I have not been kicked out, nor have I even had to serve a single time-out. I speculate that I'm tolerated because I've endeavored to make most of my non-scientific posts entertaining if not occasionally educational. (Of course some might debate the latter!) I try not to verbally abuse anyone incessantly, though I must admit that on occasion I'm guilty of lobbing a cheap shot or two. I think it's also true that all work and no play can make Jack a dull boy. If such folly is done at my own expense, I'm ok with that. Regarding the matter of recent troll behavior, when someone tends to focus on a particular ideology as a save-all for all of our world's problems, most are likely to sense a kind of self-driven fanaticism that causes us to distance ourselves from such prophets. It's not that what such prophets have to say does not merit legitimate thought and discussion, because frequently such subjects do warrant spirited debate! The problem is that when the ideology, itself, has been hijacked and used primarily as a weapon of destruction in repeated attempts to decimate one's perceived enemies – that's when it's a good idea to instigate disciplinary measures. It's time to make it clear that this is considered inappropriate posting behavior. Time for a time-out! My two cents. In the meantime, there is also the time-honored tradition of prefixing the subject line with OT. I should endeavor to use OT more often. Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:grok is removed temporarily
On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:54 AM, William Beaty wrote: Perhaps the group needs to come up with an actual rule to describe the acceptible amount of politics/religion messages here? Normally the complaints from other group members would give warning enough. My opinion is that things have worked OK here for years - the rule of thumb apparently being that everything goes until people complain. This is a pretty tolerant group, so I think it has worked out fairly well with regards to the number of complaints to handle. A lot less irrelevant gab, political or otherwise, seems to go on when important scientific reports are being discussed, so that seems to have worked out OK. One problem is the case where the primary or even single purpose of a subscriber is not scientific discussion, but rather some non- scientific agenda, advertising, or trolling, and it is accomplished at a high posting rate. Long term contributers of scientific discussion here are typically tolerated more than newcomers, or those who contribute almost nothing scientific whatsoever, when it comes to off topic posts or minor rule infractions, and that seems fair to me. This is another reason that leaving things alone unless there are complaints has worked out fairly well. Another problem is when a large signature block containing advertising or agendas is used repetitively, and posting a few short vaguely relevant comments many times a week can be construed as a bald faced advertising or trolling scheme on that basis alone. Also, responding with a sentence or two to large posts and not cutting most of the quoted material is an offense to the existing rules that many of us tend to make. I wonder if most current subscribers even know about that rule. Again, it seems to me the rules are good, we just have to follow them, and complain if things get too far out of hand. Best regards, Horace Heffner http://www.mtaonline.net/~hheffner/
