Re: Shock and horror

[Mark Secker]

On 06/07/2005, at 4:16 PM, James Devenish wrote:


 In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 on Wed, Jul 06, 2005 at 03:17:39PM +0800, Mark Secker wrote:


 no I know the company Altera and it's not them though  the product
 sounds like "Altera"  - haven't gotten the minutes from that meeting
 yet so don't know the spelling



 Alteris



yeh that's the one :)


As google would say:

Did you mean: Altiris  ?


nope  'cause it got a lot of hits on Altera so no "did you mean"



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~
Mark Secker Computer Support Officer
ph# 61-8-6488 1855 (ECEL) 
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~

"It takes an idiot to do cool things that's why it's cool"
- Haruhara Haruka (FLCL)

Ubi fumus, ibi fumus

 (sometimes works)

Re: Shock and horror

[Steve Woods]

On 06/07/2005, at 4:16 PM, James Devenish wrote:


In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
on Wed, Jul 06, 2005 at 03:17:39PM +0800, Mark Secker wrote:


no I know the company Altera and it's not them though  the product
sounds like "Altera"  - haven't gotten the minutes from that meeting
yet so don't know the spelling



Alteris


As google would say:

Did you mean: Altiris  ?

:)





We're looking at using a remote software
distribution/audit/management system for Windows (name eludes me
right now Altera? maybe), the Domain admin dude is making it sound
like the hottest new thing on the block  and I just roll my eyes
and groan and mutter under my breath "Zen Works"

Re: Shock and horror

[James Devenish]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
on Wed, Jul 06, 2005 at 03:17:39PM +0800, Mark Secker wrote:
> no I know the company Altera and it's not them though  the product 
> sounds like "Altera"  - haven't gotten the minutes from that meeting 
> yet so don't know the spelling

Alteris

> >>We're looking at using a remote software 
> >>distribution/audit/management system for Windows (name eludes me 
> >>right now Altera? maybe), the Domain admin dude is making it sound 
> >>like the hottest new thing on the block  and I just roll my eyes 
> >>and groan and mutter under my breath "Zen Works"

Re: Shock and horror

[Mark Secker]

no I know the company Altera and it's not them though  the product 
sounds like "Altera"  - haven't gotten the minutes from that meeting 
yet so don't know the spelling


We're looking at using a remote software 
distribution/audit/management system for Windows (name eludes me 
right now Altera? maybe), the Domain admin dude is making it sound 
like the hottest new thing on the block  and I just roll my eyes 
and groan and mutter under my breath "Zen Works"


Altera makes programmable logic devices.  FPGAs and CPLDs.  Probably 
not them :)

Andrew

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Mark Secker Computer Support Officer
ph# 61-8-6488 1855 (ECEL) 
University of Western Australia - CRICOS Provider No. 00126G
~

"It takes an idiot to do cool things that's why it's cool"
- Haruhara Haruka (FLCL)

Ubi fumus, ibi fumus

 (sometimes works)

Re: Shock and horror

[Andrew W. Hill]

We're looking at using a remote software 
distribution/audit/management system for Windows (name eludes me 
right now Altera? maybe), the Domain admin dude is making it sound 
like the hottest new thing on the block  and I just roll my eyes and 
groan and mutter under my breath "Zen Works"


Altera makes programmable logic devices.  FPGAs and CPLDs.  Probably 
not them :)

Andrew

Re: Shock and horror

[Peter Sealy]

On 06/07/2005, at 8:04 AM, Peter Sealy wrote:
snip


Sorry if my post is being repeated. My ISP i having major email  
troubles.


.

Peter Sealy
Thurgoona AUSTRALIA

Re: Shock and horror

[Mark Secker]

On 06/07/2005, at 9:50 AM, Mark Secker wrote:

 In my experience many things like this in Australia run three to 
five years behind any US trend.




 And in my experience the conservative academic realm (research 
based universities) are another 3 to 5 years behind general 
Australian trends.


And seeing as the cycle repeats itself every 10 years or so, 
Australian Universities should be on the cutting edge of technology 
trends...




around here we prefer to call it "the bleeding edge"
We're looking at using a remote software 
distribution/audit/management system for Windows (name eludes me 
right now Altera? maybe), the Domain admin dude is making it sound 
like the hottest new thing on the block  and I just roll my eyes and 
groan and mutter under my breath "Zen Works"




--
~
Mark Secker Computer Support Officer
ph# 61-8-6488 1855 (ECEL) 
University of Western Australia - CRICOS Provider No. 00126G
~

"It takes an idiot to do cool things that's why it's cool"
- Haruhara Haruka (FLCL)

Ubi fumus, ibi fumus

 (sometimes works)

Re: Shock and horror

[Matthew Healey]

On 06/07/2005, at 9:22 AM, Onno Benschop wrote:


Matthew Healey wrote:


On 05/07/2005, at 7:56 PM, Craig Ringer wrote:

Does anybody here know why companies put these scripts in place?   
I've never seen the logic behind it.


Companies are usually obliged by law (or industry practice) to   
provide support. A script means that they can hire unskilled  
workers  to perform that support. It costs money to hire someone  
who can  actually think and comprehend.


Any monkey can read a script, and you can pay them peanuts.


Uhm, no.


Uhm, yes.

If I ring 133 622 and work through the maze to tech support, I end up  
somewhere in India, talking to someone who barely speaks English and  
really doesn't have a clue about anything other than what's on the  
script in front of him.


Contrast that to Apple premium support, which costs money.

I ring, and get through almost immediately to someone who speaks  
English (albeit with an American accent). The person on the other end  
of the phone actually knows the product they are supporting, because  
they have it in front of them. I ask all sorts of weird questions,  
and they answer every single one. (In one case they getting the guy  
who wrote the function in on a conference call.) Staff turn over is  
low, as I usually get one or two of the same people each time I call.


If you want decent support it costs money, and most companies don't  
want to spend it.


Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

- Matt

Re: Shock and horror

[Matthew Healey]

On 06/07/2005, at 9:50 AM, Mark Secker wrote:

In my experience many things like this in Australia run three to  
five years behind any US trend.




And in my experience the conservative academic realm (research  
based universities) are another 3 to 5 years behind general  
Australian trends.


And seeing as the cycle repeats itself every 10 years or so,  
Australian Universities should be on the cutting edge of technology  
trends...


- Matt

Re: Shock and horror

[Mark Secker]

Uhm, no.

On the face of it, that may seem what is happening, but on the other 
side of the fence there is Helpdesk burn-out.






Generally the process happens a little like this:

 stuff that I can absolutely agree with that  being through the 
identical hoops several times over (and starting to feel like a rat 
trapped in a maze designed by Escher)



In my experience many things like this in Australia run three to 
five years behind any US trend.


And in my experience the conservative academic realm (research based 
universities) are another 3 to 5 years behind general Australian 
trends.


--
~
Mark Secker Computer Support Officer
ph# 61-8-6488 1855 (ECEL) 
University of Western Australia - CRICOS Provider No. 00126G
~

"It takes an idiot to do cool things that's why it's cool"
- Haruhara Haruka (FLCL)

Ubi fumus, ibi fumus

 (sometimes works)

Re: Shock and horror

[Onno Benschop]

Matthew Healey wrote:


On 05/07/2005, at 7:56 PM, Craig Ringer wrote:

Does anybody here know why companies put these scripts in place?  
I've never seen the logic behind it.



Companies are usually obliged by law (or industry practice) to  
provide support. A script means that they can hire unskilled workers  
to perform that support. It costs money to hire someone who can  
actually think and comprehend.


Any monkey can read a script, and you can pay them peanuts.



Uhm, no.

On the face of it, that may seem what is happening, but on the other 
side of the fence there is Helpdesk burn-out.


The reason a majority of companies scripts support calls is to increase 
both employee and customer satisfaction. The idea is that a consistent 
answer will give consistent results, require less stress on Helpdesk 
staff, allow for centrally coordinated answers and quicker response 
times. Bean-counting is an aspect, but by no means the major one.


Generally the process happens a little like this:

   * A company puts a product in the market place.
   * Phone calls to the company with questions result in the
 establishment of a support phone number.
   * The support phone number is swamped with calls and more staff is
 hired.
   * Typical Helpdesk burn-out occurs when staff still has too many
 calls to handle and staff turn-over increases.
   * More support staff are hired.
   * The cycle repeats.
   * Helpdesk staff gets more over worked because due to the high staff
 turn-over more time is needed to spend on training new employees.
   * Helpdesk management attempts to reduce induction times by trying
 to standardise training and introduces a Helpdesk Manual as a
 tool. (Other tools like calling queues, pre-selection, email
 access, Helpdesk tickets, etc. also fall into this category.)
   * The manual proves hopelessly out of date the moment a new employee
 receives it.
   * At some point a bean-counter points out that a lot of costs are
 associated with running a Helpdesk that don't actually generate
 direct income.
   * They decide that the manual works well enough and gets offered a
 "too good to be true" proposal from a call centre which would
 reduce employment costs, standardise their answers, reduce call
 hold times, increase customer satisfaction.


The disconnect happens when the bean-counter and Helpdesk management 
cannot explain to each other what their respective problems are. The 
bean-counter sees money flying out the door, Helpdesk management sees 
overworked, stressed and misunderstood staff. The bean-counter also 
doesn't see sales advice happening on the Helpdesk and does not realise 
that Helpdesk staff are the biggest subliminal sales force a company has.


Some companies then notice:

   * The number of complaints about their Helpdesk increases.
   * The turn-over of their company slows.


At that time, the local Helpdesk is generally re-instated and the cycle 
begins again.



I should point out that I used to manage a Helpdesk, went to the USA in 
1997 and visited the help desks for SGI, HP, Sun and another whose name 
I forget. At that time Curtin was considering spreading the Helpdesk 
across multiple departments and locations. It proceeded to close its 
central Helpdesk on Friday the 19th of December, 1997 to force the issue.


In stark contrast to this, the companies I visited had gone through the 
decentralisation woes and had re-consolidated their help desks.


In my experience many things like this in Australia run three to five 
years behind any US trend.


I suppose I'm buttering you up for: "It will get worse before it gets 
better."


--
Onno Benschop

Connected via Optus B3 at S34°45'36.5" - E139°00'08.7" (Mount Pleasant, SA)
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Re: Shock and horror

[Matthew Healey]

On 05/07/2005, at 7:56 PM, Craig Ringer wrote:

Does anybody here know why companies put these scripts in place?  
I've never seen the logic behind it.


Companies are usually obliged by law (or industry practice) to  
provide support. A script means that they can hire unskilled workers  
to perform that support. It costs money to hire someone who can  
actually think and comprehend.


Any monkey can read a script, and you can pay them peanuts.

- Matt

Re: Shock and horror

[Peter Sealy]

On the other hand, and I don't know how widespread this is, I read  
some time ago that Myers had outsourced their information call centre  
[or whatever it was called] to India but subsequently reversed that  
decision and reestablished it back in Australia. It was obviously too  
difficult for a local Indian to know the location of butter dishes in  
the Brisbane store or whether a particular brand of something was  
held in Adelaide store, etc etc.


Also one US major tech company [I think Epson] has similarly reversed  
its tech support outsourcing to India due to customer dissatisfaction  
[polite terminology] with the tech incompetence shown by the  
outsourced workers.


Maybe just two exceptions.
.

Peter Sealy
Thurgoona AUSTRALIA

Re: Shock and horror

[Mark Secker]

Aurora wrote:


It isn't the workers fault I know but they can't/or are not allowed to
answer a question that isn't on their script. I don't mind spelling things
or repeating answers but I would like them to be able to answer simple
questions such as if I'll get a renewal notice.

The whole "scripted support" thing amazes me. It's entirely beyond 
me what the people who put these policies in place think they're 
achieveing, other than angering their customers and ensuring their 
support staff will never gain skills so as to become more useful to 
the company. I can see that they might want to place clear 
boundaries on support, for example "no, we're an ISP, we won't help 
you fix your computer because it has eight million viruses on it. 
Here are a few companies you can call..." . They go a lot too far 
with this though, to the point that it becomes simply bizarre. I've 
called one big OEM, who I shall leave nameless, and been told "I 
can't help you with that, it's not on our script" then asked the 
same question a different way and got an answer. Hilarious.


Ha this reminds me a lot of BigPond's support line - I don't know if 
I got through to India or just got two different people  with  Indian 
accents - if the former at least BigPond's service center didn't have 
the audacity to have them fake being a local like a lot of US 
companies do where the call center staff have to be "Americanised" 
(or is that "Americanized)" and know how to talk in an americanised 
Indian accent and know enough about Gridiron/baseball, know about the 
current US news and weather etc to hold a conversation.


the trouble was back then they new jack5h17 about macs and the 
scripted response was purely for Mac OS 8&9. I was trying to set up a 
late model G4 iMac and the guy on the other end kept telling me I had 
to boot in to OS 9 to be able to connect and I kept telling him that 
these models WOULD NOT boot in to OS 9 then he would try and tell me 
how (Apple Icon top left of screen/System preferences/start up disk 
etc with him adamant that It would work and when I did it just to 
prove it wouldn't work  (including holding the phone to speakers so 
he could hear the reboot chime) I asked him to speak to his 
supervisor and to make them aware that thier information was 
incorrect  his supervisor then came on the line and after going 
through everything all over again stated that  the machine was 
"certainly faulty" and that I "need to have it repaired " or have the 
OS re installed. 



--
~
Mark Secker [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9380 2308 (GSE)  9380 1855 (ECEL)
ECEL Computer Support Officer, University of Western Australia.
CRICOS Provider No. 00126G
~
"Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose 
sight of the shore."

 Andre Gide

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving 
safely in one pretty and well preserved piece,  but to skid across 
the line broadside, thoroughly used up, worn out, leaking oil, 
shouting GERONIMO"

Hunter S Thompson(?)

Re: Shock and horror

[Bill Currie]

This trend is called Globalisation.  Instead of competing with the cheapest
product or service in Australia, we now compete for the cheapest in the
world.
Its why consumer appliances are so cheap and why labour costs are getting
squeezed.
Its also why John Howard wants to dismantle the minimum wage system.
Anyway, this is getting seriously off topic, so I'll end there.
Bill Currie


On 5/7/05 7:07 PM, "Aurora" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> In reply and some how I feel like defense.
> 
> I don't care where they are located if the service is good but it wasn't
> when HP went to India and from my call this morning Apple India isn't
> either.
> 
> It isn't the workers fault I know but they can't/or are not allowed to
> answer a question that isn't on their script. I don't mind spelling things
> or repeating answers but I would like them to be able to answer simple
> questions such as if I'll get a renewal notice.
> 
> You get such wonderful service from the apple service centres and in the
> past from Apple Australia I just find it sad that making money for
> shareholders overtakes the reputation of the brand.
> 
> What I am trying to say in a very inarticulate manner is that I felt the
> loss of community that Apple has always represented to me.
> 
> Smiles
> Teresa
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- The WA Macintosh User Group Mailing List --
> Archives - 
> Guidelines - 
> Unsubscribe - 
> 
> WAMUG is powered by Stalker CommuniGatePro

Re: Shock and horror

[Kathy Quinlan]

Craig Ringer wrote:



I've never heard them tell anyone to use a provided
"system restore CD" that reformats the computer and erases all data 
without even prompting the user, for example - unlike one big OEM with a 
3-letter name.


Craig,

The number of letters does not matter, HP, Dell, Compaq (now HP) IBM, 
Acer etc all have the same problem :(


I have customers who have done this as been told by tech support, and 
then wondered why they could not find their data :(


Not to mention not knowing that the updates they have installed since 
need to be installed to be able to read their backups


There is nothing like personal tech support, just wish the average luser 
(non apple / *nix user (ie M$ user) would appreciate this.


Regards,

Kat.

Re: Shock and horror

[Craig Ringer]

Aurora wrote:


It isn't the workers fault I know but they can't/or are not allowed to
answer a question that isn't on their script. I don't mind spelling things
or repeating answers but I would like them to be able to answer simple
questions such as if I'll get a renewal notice.
 

The whole "scripted support" thing amazes me. It's entirely beyond me 
what the people who put these policies in place think they're 
achieveing, other than angering their customers and ensuring their 
support staff will never gain skills so as to become more useful to the 
company. I can see that they might want to place clear boundaries on 
support, for example "no, we're an ISP, we won't help you fix your 
computer because it has eight million viruses on it. Here are a few 
companies you can call..." . They go a lot too far with this though, to 
the point that it becomes simply bizarre. I've called one big OEM, who I 
shall leave nameless, and been told "I can't help you with that, it's 
not on our script" then asked the same question a different way and got 
an answer. Hilarious.


It's for just this reason that I've stayed with WestNet even though I 
can't get an 8Mbit service from them yet (and would like one). Their 
support aren't that great in terms of technical knowledge, but they will 
try to help you out or get you the information you need. As someone who 
generally calls for information and can handle the technical stuff 
himself, that's incredibly valuable. If WestNet imposed some sort of 
scripted support plan, their most of their value to me as an ISP would 
be gone instantly.


Does anybody here know why companies put these scripts in place? I've 
never seen the logic behind it. Let's just hope Apple doesn't go down 
that path, since their support when I've had to deal with them has been 
adequate (if inferior in technical knowledge at least when I've called) 
and thus vastly better than any other OEM I've had the misfortune of 
dealing with. I've never heard them tell anyone to use a provided 
"system restore CD" that reformats the computer and erases all data 
without even prompting the user, for example - unlike one big OEM with a 
3-letter name.


--
Craig Ringer

Re: Shock and horror

[Craig Ringer]

Greg Sharp wrote:


On 5/7/05 2:51 PM, "Rod" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 


And what happened to the jobs of those at the Australian call
centre?  Apple did the same thing to TAC (who service techs call for
help).  There were some great guys in there who were very
knowledgeable and helpful :-(

Its great that some Indians have work, but hopefully those who lost
their jobs when all these call centres closed here have found work
again.  From what I have read, this is also happening in the US.  And
not only call centre work - programming and general tech jobs too.
All to make that bottom line look better for the next day's trading
on the NASDAQ ;-)

Let's hope those who did lose their jobs found work again.
   


Unfortunately most don't. The other big looser is the customer. I'm running
a poll on our site on this very issue and although only about a half dozen
votes have been submitted so far, everyone who has voted felt the quality of
service from India is nowhere near as good as the Australian based support.
 

I suspect that rather than anything inherent, this may be because 
companies who prioritize cost over service are moving to outsourced 
support first. Also, if the company is seeking to cut costs, the chances 
are that if they couldn't outsource to India they'd hire untrained 14 
year olds here. (Of course, with computers an untrained 14 year old has 
a good chance of solving your problem, but anyway...).


That doesn't make it any better for the user, of course. I am sure that 
it's possible to outsource support and still provide good service ... 
but that'd cost a lot more, especially since you need to hire people 
with actual skill in the language you're providing support in, or train 
them extensively in it.


Blame the cost-cutting mentality, not India.

--
Craig Ringer

re: Shock and horror

[Aurora]

Hi,

In reply and some how I feel like defense.

I don't care where they are located if the service is good but it wasn't
when HP went to India and from my call this morning Apple India isn't
either.

It isn't the workers fault I know but they can't/or are not allowed to
answer a question that isn't on their script. I don't mind spelling things
or repeating answers but I would like them to be able to answer simple
questions such as if I'll get a renewal notice.

You get such wonderful service from the apple service centres and in the
past from Apple Australia I just find it sad that making money for
shareholders overtakes the reputation of the brand.

What I am trying to say in a very inarticulate manner is that I felt the
loss of community that Apple has always represented to me.

Smiles
Teresa

Re: Shock and horror

[Greg Sharp]

On 5/7/05 2:51 PM, "Rod" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> And what happened to the jobs of those at the Australian call
> centre?  Apple did the same thing to TAC (who service techs call for
> help).  There were some great guys in there who were very
> knowledgeable and helpful :-(
> 
> Its great that some Indians have work, but hopefully those who lost
> their jobs when all these call centres closed here have found work
> again.  From what I have read, this is also happening in the US.  And
> not only call centre work - programming and general tech jobs too.
> All to make that bottom line look better for the next day's trading
> on the NASDAQ ;-)
> 
> Let's hope those who did lose their jobs found work again.
Unfortunately most don't. The other big looser is the customer. I'm running
a poll on our site on this very issue and although only about a half dozen
votes have been submitted so far, everyone who has voted felt the quality of
service from India is nowhere near as good as the Australian based support.

I personally tried calling about upgrading a dual G4 to an Xserve. The guy
on the other end kept thinking I had a Dell instead of a Dual G4 and kept
asking if it was a laptop or a desktop. After 10 minutes without getting
past this point I hung up in disgust. I ended up buying the Xserve on eBay
because I couldn't get any service from Apple.

Big companies and government are selling Australia's future down the river.
In Sydney when you walk past any government office eg Centrelink, RTA, Tax
Office etc you see that between 50-80% look like they're Indians. Companies
like Apple, Telstra etc sack local support staff and move everything to
India all to save money with no concern for quality of service to customers.
I receive around 50-200 phone calls a week from marketing companies based in
India (the telephone equivalent to junk mail & SPAM) representing Australian
companies, a nasty result of VOIP making it so cheap for these international
call centres.

I saw a report on the ABC around 18 months ago about a company in Australia
with the contracts for outsourcing many of these jobs whose directors
comprise ex politicians (both sides), lawyers, retired union leaders, public
servants and ex company directors. They're scrambling for every dollar they
can rake in and have no concern for Australian jobs. I'd like to see a royal
commission into this scandal, but it won't happen.


-- 

All the best

Greg Sharp
President/Webmaster
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Australian Mac Users Group (AUSMUG)
http://australian.macusersgroup.org

Re: Shock and horror

[Rod]

On 05/07/2005, at 10:53 AM, Paul Doyle wrote:


Hi,

Or from another point of view, good on them for improving the  
employment opportunities for Indians.


I just finished reading a terrific book called Q and A by Vikas  
Swarup and it has left me feeling rather sympathetic.


I wonder what Apple sales are like in India?

Cheers
Paul

On 05/07/2005, at 8:20, Aurora wrote:


And what happened to the jobs of those at the Australian call  
centre?  Apple did the same thing to TAC (who service techs call for  
help).  There were some great guys in there who were very  
knowledgeable and helpful :-(


Its great that some Indians have work, but hopefully those who lost  
their jobs when all these call centres closed here have found work  
again.  From what I have read, this is also happening in the US.  And  
not only call centre work - programming and general tech jobs too.   
All to make that bottom line look better for the next day's trading  
on the NASDAQ ;-)


Let's hope those who did lose their jobs found work again.

Seeya

Rod!

Re: Shock and horror

[Kelly Duffy]

I thought the same once when calling a help line, but I just happened
to be talking to an Indian immigrant.

It doesn't really worry me either way, as long as we get decent
service, and as long as they pay the staff reasonable wages.

Kind regards,
Kelly


On 7/5/05, Aurora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Just called to register my new ibook for its apple care and guess what
> happened.
> 
> The unthinkable...
> 
> an Indian call centre.
> 
> I have to admit it was better than HP's but still.
> 
> Bit cheap there Mr Jobs - what happened to quality.
> 
> What a way to start the morning.
> 
> Smiles
> Aurora
> 
> 
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Re: Shock and horror

[Paul Doyle]

Hi,

Or from another point of view, good on them for improving the 
employment opportunities for Indians.


I just finished reading a terrific book called Q and A by Vikas Swarup 
and it has left me feeling rather sympathetic.


I wonder what Apple sales are like in India?

Cheers
Paul

On 05/07/2005, at 8:20, Aurora wrote:


Hi,

Just called to register my new ibook for its apple care and guess what
happened.

The unthinkable...

an Indian call centre.

I have to admit it was better than HP's but still.

Bit cheap there Mr Jobs - what happened to quality.

What a way to start the morning.

Smiles
Aurora


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Shock and horror

[Aurora]

Hi,

Just called to register my new ibook for its apple care and guess what
happened.

The unthinkable...

an Indian call centre.

I have to admit it was better than HP's but still.

Bit cheap there Mr Jobs - what happened to quality.

What a way to start the morning.

Smiles
Aurora