Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
On Jun 13, 2009, at 9:06 PM, Bernard Bradley wrote: On Jun 13, 2009, at 2:36 PM, Simon McLean wrote: I think it takes about 5 years development experience with WO for these kind of posts not to phase you. I'd have to agree. I just hit the five year mark, and after attending WOWODC, the future couldn't be brighter in my opinion. I was actually getting worried that we had gone through the entire week without the obligatory end of the WOrld post on the list. I feel better now. I would really worry if there wasn't enough interest to in the technology to lash out at Apple every year :-O And, if MIke is happy, I am HAPPY! Thanks to everyone in the community that has made this such a great platform for development. Berney I'm in about the same spot. I feel lucky to be developing the apps I am with the tools I'm using. These apps could push WO into broader use here. The overall pulse of the WO community has only gotten stronger every year since I started. Thanks to all the folks that contribute to the tools. You're appreciated. I hope I can give something back at some point. And doggonit, I really hope I can go to WOWODC next year. Tim UCLA GSEIS ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
On Jun 14, 2009, at 1:34 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: Yeah, if you are prone to anxiety this might not be the technology for you! Ha! Well put! You know what's funny though - for all the macinations (heh) that people suspect, the NeXT based technologies have had longer lives than anything else I've ever used. Objective-C? Was using it in 1990. What other languages were in use then?? C, Basic, PASCAL - you know, they're really big now. I built a commodity trading system in Objective-C starting in 1991... It's still being sold today. WebObjects - lets see - 1996, right? What other object oriented web application server technologies were around in 1996?:) People have been predicting the death of WebObjects for as long as I can remember - it's genuinely laughable now! ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
On 15-Jun-09, at 10:56 PM, Ken Anderson wrote: On Jun 14, 2009, at 1:34 AM, Chuck Hill wrote: Yeah, if you are prone to anxiety this might not be the technology for you! Ha! Well put! You know what's funny though - for all the macinations (heh) that people suspect, the NeXT based technologies have had longer lives than anything else I've ever used. Objective-C? Was using it in 1990. What other languages were in use then?? C, Basic, PASCAL - you know, they're really big now. I built a commodity trading system in Objective-C starting in 1991... It's still being sold today. WebObjects - lets see - 1996, right? What other object oriented web application server technologies were around in 1996?:) People have been predicting the death of WebObjects for as long as I can remember - it's genuinely laughable now! Technology in general doesn't age well. So mature is often interpreted a synonym for old, dull, and crotchety, and just waiting for something young and sparkly to eat it's lunch. It's a testament to WebObjects usefulness and design that it continues to prove naysayers wrong about it's survival. It may also say something about the creators and users of Next inspired technology, we seem to be pretty tenacious and not likely to abandon our chosen tools without a damn good reason. i.e: Things would be a lot different if the Carbon faction at Apple had come out on top of the power struggle that occurred after the Next acquisition. ;david -- David LeBer Codeferous Software 'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing' site: http://codeferous.com blog: http://davidleber.net profile:http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber twitter:http://twitter.com/rebeld -- Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group: http://tacow.org ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects (OT left turn)
On 15-Jun-09, at 11:33 PM, David LaBer wrote: Technology in general doesn't age well. So mature is often interpreted a synonym for old, dull, and crotchety, and just waiting for something young and sparkly to eat it's lunch. It's a testament to WebObjects usefulness and design that it continues to prove naysayers wrong about it's survival. It may also say something about the creators and users of Next inspired technology, we seem to be pretty tenacious and not likely to abandon our chosen tools without a damn good reason. i.e: Things would be a lot different if the Carbon faction at Apple had come out on top of the power struggle that occurred after the Next acquisition. I so have to jump in here, having just started retiring a suite of native Mac applications that I started writing in 1988 using Object Pascal (since moved to C++) and MacApp (the original Apple framework :-). Unfortunately, it is old, dull, and crotchety, but certainly far exceeded anyone's expectation of longevity and a testimony to the resilience of the framework that it could withstand 21 years of 24x7 mission critical use and continuous development and improvement. Fortunately, it is being replaced in a large part with WebObjects. Greg Finnegan gfinne...@pennysaverusa.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
Hi, *** WARNING: I wasn't able to be at WWDC or WOWODC this year so I'm not sure the following is correct. *** According to the website: http://mac.topnewsdigest.com/uncategorized/conflicting-information-about-webobjects/ Mac OS X 10.6 server no longer support WebObjects. I'm not to talk about NDA-things here. Instead, I'm here to discuss what the above statement mean to us. Since Apple itself is still using WebObjects for MobileMe, iTunes store, AppleStore website, RADAR, devforums and many other system, it's difficult to totally replace all the webobjects app to other technology at once. However, I speculate that Apple will put less and less effort on WebObjects year by year. Although WO 5.5/5.6 is coming, I personally do not expect any other good news from Apple. First deprecates wo-tools, then discontinue the support of WO in the next release of their OS. Apple's attitute is obvious––I even talked to an Apple employee at WWDC08 and he said, You are using WebObjects? I thought only europeans use that. Of course it's just kidding in a very private conversation, but it more or less shows that not all Apple employees are satisfying with WebObjects, and I guess their percentage isn't low. It seems that this year we have nothing metioned on the WWDC IT session page. No lab either. Even Apple's current wo apps were not good testimonials for WO. Some developers think that Apple's web apps are infamous as 20-century-style and feel frustrated when using them. (It's a long story about how Apple Online Store screw its customer's names with iPhone dev program) Well, it may not be the problem of the essence of WO at all, but the lack of documentation/support is. Maybe why WebObjects is still in Apple is because (1) Apple has no other web technology, (2) Pierre try hard to defending and promoting WO, and (3) both. I predict the future of WebObjects will be totally running from community. Could you share some thoughts with me? Thanks. Regards, yllan ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
OMG.. and we are starting developing WO app in the company I woprk for... and guess what,., it was me who gave the idea to develop in WO!, :S . what to do what to do ?? no panic. hopefully. I hope we don't have to switch to RoR... I wanna cry. :P no panic no panic.! :P. ... hopefully G. On Jun 13, 2009, at 9:07 AM, Yung-Luen Lan wrote: Hi, *** WARNING: I wasn't able to be at WWDC or WOWODC this year so I'm not sure the following is correct. *** According to the website: http://mac.topnewsdigest.com/uncategorized/conflicting-information-about-webobjects/ Mac OS X 10.6 server no longer support WebObjects. I'm not to talk about NDA-things here. Instead, I'm here to discuss what the above statement mean to us. Since Apple itself is still using WebObjects for MobileMe, iTunes store, AppleStore website, RADAR, devforums and many other system, it's difficult to totally replace all the webobjects app to other technology at once. However, I speculate that Apple will put less and less effort on WebObjects year by year. Although WO 5.5/5.6 is coming, I personally do not expect any other good news from Apple. First deprecates wo-tools, then discontinue the support of WO in the next release of their OS. Apple's attitute is obvious––I even talked to an Apple employee at WWDC08 and he said, You are using WebObjects? I thought only europeans use that. Of course it's just kidding in a very private conversation, but it more or less shows that not all Apple employees are satisfying with WebObjects, and I guess their percentage isn't low. It seems that this year we have nothing metioned on the WWDC IT session page. No lab either. Even Apple's current wo apps were not good testimonials for WO. Some developers think that Apple's web apps are infamous as 20-century-style and feel frustrated when using them. (It's a long story about how Apple Online Store screw its customer's names with iPhone dev program) Well, it may not be the problem of the essence of WO at all, but the lack of documentation/support is. Maybe why WebObjects is still in Apple is because (1) Apple has no other web technology, (2) Pierre try hard to defending and promoting WO, and (3) both. I predict the future of WebObjects will be totally running from community. Could you share some thoughts with me? Thanks. Regards, yllan ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/webobjectspicora%40gmail.com This email sent to webobjectspic...@gmail.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
Hi On 13 juin 09, at 00:07, Yung-Luen Lan wrote: Hi, *** WARNING: I wasn't able to be at WWDC or WOWODC this year so I'm not sure the following is correct. *** In fact. Would you have been at WOWODC, you would have notived that, obviously: - Apple's own usage of WO is just increasing constantly, one critical project after the other; - WO is evolving more and faster than ever, both from the Apple's teams effort and the community support, not even talking of a very special framework that has been demoed (you probably heard about); not talking about all the Wonder/WOLips magic stuff; - WO tools have never been that productive, easy to use, and well supported; - The overall level of the WOWODC sessions was just incredible (thanks to the speakers and organization) : after 12 years of WebObjects and other smart technologies, I can tell you the WO magic is actually there again, for long; - WOWODC has now 2 editions - West and East; - Do you see anything on the market that is compelling to WO, both in its current and forthcoming incarnations? None, though there are brilliant people out there working on smart ideas (rails, ...). It is not some kind of WO advocacy from me, it is a fact you can verify by yoursef. Don't listen too much to the band, but check facts instead, then make your own conclusions about the future. And it is brilliant, dispite the marketing disappointments we are used to for years. Finally: order the WOWODC dvds as soon as they are available, don't speculate, talk to other WO developers and users, gain market shares, enjoy. Cheers Christian Trotobas According to the website: http://mac.topnewsdigest.com/uncategorized/conflicting-information-about-webobjects/ Mac OS X 10.6 server no longer support WebObjects. I'm not to talk about NDA-things here. Instead, I'm here to discuss what the above statement mean to us. Since Apple itself is still using WebObjects for MobileMe, iTunes store, AppleStore website, RADAR, devforums and many other system, it's difficult to totally replace all the webobjects app to other technology at once. However, I speculate that Apple will put less and less effort on WebObjects year by year. Although WO 5.5/5.6 is coming, I personally do not expect any other good news from Apple. First deprecates wo-tools, then discontinue the support of WO in the next release of their OS. Apple's attitute is obvious––I even talked to an Apple employee at WWDC08 and he said, You are using WebObjects? I thought only europeans use that. Of course it's just kidding in a very private conversation, but it more or less shows that not all Apple employees are satisfying with WebObjects, and I guess their percentage isn't low. It seems that this year we have nothing metioned on the WWDC IT session page. No lab either. Even Apple's current wo apps were not good testimonials for WO. Some developers think that Apple's web apps are infamous as 20-century-style and feel frustrated when using them. (It's a long story about how Apple Online Store screw its customer's names with iPhone dev program) Well, it may not be the problem of the essence of WO at all, but the lack of documentation/support is. Maybe why WebObjects is still in Apple is because (1) Apple has no other web technology, (2) Pierre try hard to defending and promoting WO, and (3) both. I predict the future of WebObjects will be totally running from community. Could you share some thoughts with me? Thanks. Regards, yllan ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/trotobas%40mac.com This email sent to troto...@mac.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
On 13/06/2009, at 7:07 PM, Yung-Luen Lan wrote: Hi, *** WARNING: I wasn't able to be at WWDC or WOWODC this year so I'm not sure the following is correct. *** According to the website: http://mac.topnewsdigest.com/uncategorized/conflicting-information-about-webobjects/ Mac OS X 10.6 server no longer support WebObjects. My assumption is this means it doesn't have the Java apps (javamonitor, wotaskd, etc) installed by default. You can still install the WO runtime, and you can always deploy to a servlet. I deploy to servlets these days, but that's mostly to do with having to use Linux servers. -- Phillip Hutchings sitha...@sitharus.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
Le 09-06-13 à 06:50, Phillip Hutchings a écrit : On 13/06/2009, at 7:07 PM, Yung-Luen Lan wrote: Hi, *** WARNING: I wasn't able to be at WWDC or WOWODC this year so I'm not sure the following is correct. *** According to the website: http://mac.topnewsdigest.com/uncategorized/conflicting-information-about-webobjects/ Mac OS X 10.6 server no longer support WebObjects. My assumption is this means it doesn't have the Java apps (javamonitor, wotaskd, etc) installed by default. You can still install the WO runtime, and you can always deploy to a servlet. Just like it was before Tiger Server. I deploy to servlets these days, but that's mostly to do with having to use Linux servers. -- Phillip Hutchings sitha...@sitharus.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca --- Pascal Robert http://www.macti.ca | http://www.linkedin.com/in/macti Skype | Twitter | AIM/iChat : MacTICanada ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
Dave already did this, but I wanted to do a pass also. Let me begin this by saying that I have to be very careful what I say because I _actually know what is going on_. Mac OS X 10.6 server no longer support WebObjects. WO is not on the list of technologies included by default in 10.6, as shown on the 10.6 page. There are lots of interpretations of this. Since Apple itself is still using WebObjects for MobileMe, iTunes store, AppleStore website, RADAR, devforums and many other system, it's difficult to totally replace all the webobjects app to other technology at once. It would be ridiculous for Apple to even consider replacing their incredibly profitable and scalable web properties that are built on a very powerful technology. However, I speculate that Apple will put less and less effort on WebObjects year by year. The iTunes Store is wildly successful and increasing in popularity every day. Is it realistic to think that the strategic move for Apple is to decrease the development effort on the underlying platform? Although WO 5.5/5.6 is coming, I personally do not expect any other good news from Apple. That makes one of us. First deprecates wo-tools, then discontinue the support of WO in the next release of their OS. Regardless of what that statement actually means, have you ever used Apple's WebObjects support? I know I haven't. Anyone who wants ACTUAL WO support, email me -- mDimension would be happy to put together a support package for you. Apple's attitute is obvious Clearly it's not obvious. ––I even talked to an Apple employee at WWDC08 and he said, You are using WebObjects? I thought only europeans use that. Of course it's just kidding in a very private conversation, but it more or less shows that not all Apple employees are satisfying with WebObjects, and I guess their percentage isn't low. It seems that this year we have nothing metioned on the WWDC IT session page. No lab either. We should be sure not to invite THAT guy to WebObjects Christmas Party ... Even Apple's current wo apps were not good testimonials for WO. iTunes Store and Apple Store are two of the largest online stores in the world. I can't think of better testimonials for WO. Some developers think that Apple's web apps are infamous as 20-century-style and feel frustrated when using them. (It's a long story about how Apple Online Store screw its customer's names with iPhone dev program) Well, it may not be the problem of the essence of WO at all, but the lack of documentation/support is. Ajax framework has been available for 2 or 3 years in Project Wonder now, and has some capabilities that are unique to WO. If you came to WOWODC, you would have seen that we have frameworks for writing RESTful JSON services as well. Not sure what hot 21st century technology you're missing. Maybe why WebObjects is still in Apple is because (1) Apple has no other web technology, (2) Pierre try hard to defending and promoting WO, and (3) both. There's a (4) because it's awesome that you're leaving out. I predict the future of WebObjects will be totally running from community. Could you share some thoughts with me? Thanks. Thoughts = shared. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
Hi Dave, On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 7:30 PM, David Avendasorawebobje...@avendasora.com wrote: Hi yllan, I haven't had my coffee yet today, so I'm feeling crabby... On Jun 13, 2009, at 3:07 AM, Yung-Luen Lan wrote: Since Apple itself is still using WebObjects for MobileMe, iTunes store, AppleStore website, RADAR, devforums and many other system, it's difficult to totally replace all the webobjects app to other technology at once. Or ever. WO not only runs their public-facing apps, but it is also the foundation of almost every other internal application at Apple. Somebody from Apple once said every penny that Apple makes flows through WO at some point. This is not something that they are going to walk away from. Although WO 5.5/5.6 is coming, I personally do not expect any other good news from Apple. First deprecates wo-tools, I don't know how often this needs to be said, but the deprecation of the Apple-developed tools was very good news for WebObjects. The Cocoa-Java Bridge that these tools were based on was deprecated and wouldn't be available in Leopard. So Apple was faced with needing to re-write all the WO-specific dev tools from scratch. But they very wisely saw that the Eclipse-based toolset (WOLips) was already more powerful and less buggy and they chose to _support_ that instead. The tools changed, they didn't disappear. Their decision to recommend, use and invest in WOLips has had a hugely positive impact on the ongoing development of the WO frameworks _and_ the Dev Tools. All internal WO development can now focus on improving the frameworks instead of being sidetracked by the tools. And improve they have. The new templating system in WO 5.4 is really amazing. The strides that WOLips has made over the last year with Apple's backing is simply phenomenal. I knew that the WO runtime has been improved over year, and Apple uses many WO in their web applications notheless internal or external. What I concerned about the future of WO is, will Apple promote WO to public? Go to http://developer.apple.com/referencelibrary/ check how many WO documents were produced after 2007. Only 4. The latest one even doesn't finished yet. The example code come with Xcode are a bit outdated and problematic. I still remember how stupid I were last year when I came to WWDC WebObjects Lab. However, even Pascal Robert can't get the Apple examples compiled on my system. I'm not sure if Apple has fixed that, but the environment is unfriendly to new learner. Besides the lack of documentation, another point is how much effort made by Apple goes directly into the community. Of course WOLips will be benefit if WO runtime has improvements, but did Apple ever sponsor WOLips just like what they did to clang? Or any WO-related thing Apple want to make it as industry standard just like block in C, OpenCL, llvm? I mean, if they improve WO just only becasue they have a lot of WO web apps (think about what Adobe will do if they are accessible to carbon frameworks--make a 64bit version without a totally rewrite) and are going to use WO only for Apple's own applications without promoting to public, it's not a good thing to developers outside Apple. --I even talked to an Apple employee at WWDC08 and he said, You are using WebObjects? I thought only europeans use that. Of course it's just kidding in a very private conversation, but it more or less shows that not all Apple employees are satisfying with WebObjects, Yeah. One guy makes a snide remark and you take it to mean there's a fundamental problem with WO? No. Just like I said, it's not a problem of essence of WebObjects at all. Even Apple's current wo apps were not good testimonials for WO. Based on what? That's a big statement. (1) I often got a seesion timeout when I download iPhone SDK or something right after I login into developer program page. (2) The session management is a mess in iTunesConnect. (3) When I click into an article in page 3 of devforum and jump back, it goes to page 1. (4) Short-lived session (since I type English very slow, RADAR often kicks me out.) (5) Apple Online Store made some bad assumption on the name of customer and rewrite the bad data to apple acount. No way to change. One of my friend got his name displayed on AppStore as 股公司 liu for a long time. The first part is not even part of his name! (6) .. Again, I'm not saying it's because the essense of WO, it may be caused by flawed design, not well-trained programmer, misunderstood of requirements or anything. What I said is, Apple's current wo apps are not good web apps comaring to other web apps I've used. Since it's not an excellent web app (no matter what cause that), it will not be a good testimonial of WO. Just my two cents. Regards, yllan ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
Hi Mke, On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 9:14 PM, Mike Schragmsch...@mdimension.com wrote: Dave already did this, but I wanted to do a pass also. Let me begin this by saying that I have to be very careful what I say because I _actually know what is going on_. It would be ridiculous for Apple to even consider replacing their incredibly profitable and scalable web properties that are built on a very powerful technology. Agree. Regardless of what that statement actually means, have you ever used Apple's WebObjects support? I know I haven't. Anyone who wants ACTUAL WO support, email me -- mDimension would be happy to put together a support package for you. That's a good news. Even Apple's current wo apps were not good testimonials for WO. iTunes Store and Apple Store are two of the largest online stores in the world. I can't think of better testimonials for WO. Let me put it this way: Microsoft live.com is the top 5 website in the world. Will that convert you to ASP? Ajax framework has been available for 2 or 3 years in Project Wonder now, and has some capabilities that are unique to WO. If you came to WOWODC, you would have seen that we have frameworks for writing RESTful JSON services as well. Not sure what hot 21st century technology you're missing. Even I am not here this year, I've read that on Project Wonder blog. I really appreciate all your work on Project WONDER. Again, I didn't say WO is like 20-century technology, but Apple's current web service is. Maybe why WebObjects is still in Apple is because (1) Apple has no other web technology, (2) Pierre try hard to defending and promoting WO, and (3) both. There's a (4) because it's awesome that you're leaving out. Yup, I forgot that. Regards, yllan ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
I knew that the WO runtime has been improved over year, and Apple uses many WO in their web applications notheless internal or external. What I concerned about the future of WO is, will Apple promote WO to public? Go to http://developer.apple.com/referencelibrary/ check how many WO documents were produced after 2007. Only 4. The latest one even doesn't finished yet. The example code come with Xcode are a bit outdated and problematic. I still remember how stupid I were last year when I came to WWDC WebObjects Lab. However, even Pascal Robert can't get the Apple examples compiled on my system. I'm not sure if Apple has fixed that, but the environment is unfriendly to new learner. I agree that the WO new user experience is pretty lousy. However, I'm not sure why we should look at the WO community any differently than, say, the Rails community. In almost every other community, it's the people in the community who are producing content for everyone else. If you think the intro to WO material sucks, then help produce some new content and examples. That's how any community stays vibrant -- by having members that involve themselves in making it compelling. This is why mDimension, Chuck/GVC, Anjo, Quinton, Henrique, Lachlan, and all the other people do what they do. I think we all recognize that WO is powerful and contributing keeps it fresh and moving forward. Incidentally, when I work on Cocoa, I'm just as likely to find answers on cocoadev or the mailing lists as I am to find it in Apple's prepared material. From my perspective, who cares if Apple produces content or promotes WO? Is WO great? Does it solve problems for you better than the alternative? It does for me, too, and I'll continue to use it as long as it's more compelling than the alternatives. Besides the lack of documentation, another point is how much effort made by Apple goes directly into the community. Of course WOLips will be benefit if WO runtime has improvements, but did Apple ever sponsor WOLips just like what they did to clang? Or any WO-related thing Apple want to make it as industry standard just like block in C, OpenCL, llvm? Actualy Apple DOES sponsor WOLips. The standalone Entity Modeler and EOModelDoc were sponsored by iTunes (as I've mentioned previously on the list), and quite a few other enhancements over the past several months that I've worked on have also been funded by Apple. Apple is also actively working on Maven features and support (if you're into that sort of thing :) ). Additionally, the work to modify Project Wonder to support future versions of WO was in part funded by Apple. I mean, if they improve WO just only becasue they have a lot of WO web apps (think about what Adobe will do if they are accessible to carbon frameworks--make a 64bit version without a totally rewrite) and are going to use WO only for Apple's own applications without promoting to public, it's not a good thing to developers outside Apple. The template parser (along with quite a few other enhancements) in WO 5.4.3 came directly from the Apple Online Store. In fact, Drew Davidson from AOS gave a great presentation on it at WOWODC this year. You are mistaken if you think that Apple's internal development doesn't feed the WebObjects community. Even Apple's current wo apps were not good testimonials for WO. Based on what? That's a big statement. (1) I often got a seesion timeout when I download iPhone SDK or something right after I login into developer program page. The iPhone Developer page isn't WO. It's .action URLs, which i BELIEVE is Struts. The downloader app might be WO. (2) The session management is a mess in iTunesConnect. Honestly ... Never seen those problems with it, but maybe that's just me. I definitely won't give iTC an Apple Design Award, though :) (3) When I click into an article in page 3 of devforum and jump back, it goes to page 1. The dev forums aren't WO -- It's Jive, a commercial JSP-based forum product. (4) Short-lived session (since I type English very slow, RADAR often kicks me out.) Log a radar :) Sorry .. I couldn't resist. (5) Apple Online Store made some bad assumption on the name of customer and rewrite the bad data to apple acount. No way to change. One of my friend got his name displayed on AppStore as 股公司 liu for a long time. The first part is not even part of his name! What I said is, Apple's current wo apps are not good web apps comaring to other web apps I've used. Since it's not an excellent web app (no matter what cause that), it will not be a good testimonial of WO. To each his own, I suppose. I actually think AOS is a pretty nice app -- certainly as good (and slicker in several ways) than it's equivalently-sized competitors (Amazon, Dell, etc). Concierge is very slick. MobileMe is about as modern as you can get. One-to-One is also cool. iTunes is one of the biggest apps on the web and works pretty darn well.
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
Le 09-06-13 à 11:50, Mike Schrag a écrit : I knew that the WO runtime has been improved over year, and Apple uses many WO in their web applications notheless internal or external. What I concerned about the future of WO is, will Apple promote WO to public? Go to http://developer.apple.com/referencelibrary/ check how many WO documents were produced after 2007. Only 4. The latest one even doesn't finished yet. The example code come with Xcode are a bit outdated and problematic. I still remember how stupid I were last year when I came to WWDC WebObjects Lab. However, even Pascal Robert can't get the Apple examples compiled on my system. I'm not sure if Apple has fixed that, but the environment is unfriendly to new learner. I agree that the WO new user experience is pretty lousy. And this is why we do WOWODC East. And people should not forget that training is also available from other places. However, I'm not sure why we should look at the WO community any differently than, say, the Rails community. In almost every other community, it's the people in the community who are producing content for everyone else. If you think the intro to WO material sucks, then help produce some new content and examples. That's how any community stays vibrant -- by having members that involve themselves in making it compelling. This is why mDimension, Chuck/ GVC, Anjo, Quinton, Henrique, Lachlan, and all the other people do what they do. I think we all recognize that WO is powerful and contributing keeps it fresh and moving forward. I think part of the problem is that people expect enterprise support from Apple because of the NeXT days when WO was $50 000. Rails and others started as free right from their beginning, so the community didn't expect enterprise support. Would I like more podcasts on wocommunity.org? YES. Would I like more profiles? YES. And this is why we do the surveys and I presented the stats for wocommunity.org at WOWODC West (I will add those stats to the wiki before the end of June). Incidentally, when I work on Cocoa, I'm just as likely to find answers on cocoadev or the mailing lists as I am to find it in Apple's prepared material. From my perspective, who cares if Apple produces content or promotes WO? Is WO great? Does it solve problems for you better than the alternative? It does for me, too, and I'll continue to use it as long as it's more compelling than the alternatives. Besides the lack of documentation, another point is how much effort made by Apple goes directly into the community. Of course WOLips will be benefit if WO runtime has improvements, but did Apple ever sponsor WOLips just like what they did to clang? Or any WO-related thing Apple want to make it as industry standard just like block in C, OpenCL, llvm? Actualy Apple DOES sponsor WOLips. The standalone Entity Modeler and EOModelDoc were sponsored by iTunes (as I've mentioned previously on the list), and quite a few other enhancements over the past several months that I've worked on have also been funded by Apple. Apple is also actively working on Maven features and support (if you're into that sort of thing :) ). Additionally, the work to modify Project Wonder to support future versions of WO was in part funded by Apple. I mean, if they improve WO just only becasue they have a lot of WO web apps (think about what Adobe will do if they are accessible to carbon frameworks--make a 64bit version without a totally rewrite) and are going to use WO only for Apple's own applications without promoting to public, it's not a good thing to developers outside Apple. The template parser (along with quite a few other enhancements) in WO 5.4.3 came directly from the Apple Online Store. In fact, Drew Davidson from AOS gave a great presentation on it at WOWODC this year. You are mistaken if you think that Apple's internal development doesn't feed the WebObjects community. Even Apple's current wo apps were not good testimonials for WO. Based on what? That's a big statement. (1) I often got a seesion timeout when I download iPhone SDK or something right after I login into developer program page. The iPhone Developer page isn't WO. It's .action URLs, which i BELIEVE is Struts. The downloader app might be WO. (2) The session management is a mess in iTunesConnect. Honestly ... Never seen those problems with it, but maybe that's just me. I definitely won't give iTC an Apple Design Award, though :) (3) When I click into an article in page 3 of devforum and jump back, it goes to page 1. The dev forums aren't WO -- It's Jive, a commercial JSP-based forum product. (4) Short-lived session (since I type English very slow, RADAR often kicks me out.) Log a radar :) Sorry .. I couldn't resist. (5) Apple Online Store made some bad assumption on the name of customer and rewrite the bad data to apple acount. No way to change. One of my friend got
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
On Jun 13, 2009, at 4:30 AM, David Avendasora wrote: According to the website: http://mac.topnewsdigest.com/uncategorized/conflicting-information-about-webobjects/ Mac OS X 10.6 server no longer support WebObjects. Oooh. topnewsdigest.com. That's where I go for all my Apple-related news. I don't know where they got that. But wherever it's from it's likely from pre-release documentation and likely wildly inaccurate. Or maybe there's some grain of truth to it, but it isn't what you think. Who knows? FWIW, it's from the Upgrading and Migrating doc for Snow Leopard. I agree with those who have already posted that what not supported really means is probably more like not included I've read in other places that one of the goals of Snow Leopard was to use less disk space so I think they pared it down to only the really commonly used packages, and I think we would all agree that WO isn't in that category. However, I do wish that Apple would be more careful about their wording. It's quite understandable that folks would take not supported literally, and in this community that's pretty much like shouting Fire! Also, regarding the lack of WO stuff at WWDC this year - I mentioned this to an Apple employee who sat next to me at lunch, and he said that Apple put all their resources into WOWODC this year since that's where the most WO users are. This make perfect sense to me, especially since WWDC was so much all iPhone, all the time that I expect there was fierce competition for every time slot. We probably got more attention from Apple this way, and I'm ok with that. janine, mostly quiet these days but not entirely gone :) ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
Hi! On 2009/06/13, at 05:58, Pascal Robert wrote: My assumption is this means it doesn't have the Java apps (javamonitor, wotaskd, etc) installed by default. You can still install the WO runtime, and you can always deploy to a servlet. Just like it was before Tiger Server. And that's a REALLY good thing. I always get pissed off when I upgrade Mac OS X Server, and the WO installation is also upgraded, causing my apps to break or malfunction. Separating both is really good news for me. Yours Miguel Arroz ... http://www.survs.com smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
On 13-Jun-09, at 1:17 PM, Miguel Arroz wrote: Hi! On 2009/06/13, at 05:58, Pascal Robert wrote: My assumption is this means it doesn't have the Java apps (javamonitor, wotaskd, etc) installed by default. You can still install the WO runtime, and you can always deploy to a servlet. Just like it was before Tiger Server. And that's a REALLY good thing. I always get pissed off when I upgrade Mac OS X Server, and the WO installation is also upgraded, causing my apps to break or malfunction. Separating both is really good news for me. My feeling is that anything that separates WebObjects from Apple's product release cycle (without killing it outright*) is a good thing. *I know nothing, and have not talked to anyone who does, but am willing to optimistically interpret Mike when he says he is happy. ;david -- David LeBer Codeferous Software 'co-def-er-ous' adj. Literally 'code-bearing' site: http://codeferous.com blog: http://davidleber.net profile:http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidleber twitter:http://twitter.com/rebeld -- Toronto Area Cocoa / WebObjects developers group: http://tacow.org ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
Speaking of contributing. While we are digging into several new projects, we would like to start adding and editing content on the wiki. I can't seem to find an area to create an account. A couple folks (David/Chuck) mentioned an area where this can be done. If someone would chime in on the official sign-up page, that would be great. Thanks, G On Jun 13, 2009, at 8:50 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I agree that the WO new user experience is pretty lousy. However, I'm not sure why we should look at the WO community any differently than, say, the Rails community. In almost every other community, it's the people in the community who are producing content for everyone else. If you think the intro to WO material sucks, then help produce some new content and examples. That's how any community stays vibrant -- by having members that involve themselves in making it compelling. This is why mDimension, Chuck/GVC, Anjo, Quinton, Henrique, Lachlan, and all the other people do what they do. I think we all recognize that WO is powerful and contributing keeps it fresh and moving forward. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
Check out : http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WOCOM/WOCOM Speaking of contributing. While we are digging into several new projects, we would like to start adding and editing content on the wiki. I can't seem to find an area to create an account. A couple folks (David/Chuck) mentioned an area where this can be done. If someone would chime in on the official sign-up page, that would be great. Thanks, G On Jun 13, 2009, at 8:50 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I agree that the WO new user experience is pretty lousy. However, I'm not sure why we should look at the WO community any differently than, say, the Rails community. In almost every other community, it's the people in the community who are producing content for everyone else. If you think the intro to WO material sucks, then help produce some new content and examples. That's how any community stays vibrant -- by having members that involve themselves in making it compelling. This is why mDimension, Chuck/ GVC, Anjo, Quinton, Henrique, Lachlan, and all the other people do what they do. I think we all recognize that WO is powerful and contributing keeps it fresh and moving forward. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/probert%40macti.ca This email sent to prob...@macti.ca --- Pascal Robert http://www.macti.ca | http://www.linkedin.com/in/macti Skype | Twitter | AIM/iChat : MacTICanada ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 10:37 AM, George Domurotgeo...@boxofficetickets.com wrote: Speaking of contributing. While we are digging into several new projects, we would like to start adding and editing content on the wiki. I can't seem to find an area to create an account. A couple folks (David/Chuck) mentioned an area where this can be done. If someone would chime in on the official sign-up page, that would be great. This is moving off topic, but the home page has it all: http://wiki.objectstyle.org/confluence/display/WO/Home You need to setup a Jira account. Thanks, G On Jun 13, 2009, at 8:50 AM, Mike Schrag wrote: I agree that the WO new user experience is pretty lousy. However, I'm not sure why we should look at the WO community any differently than, say, the Rails community. In almost every other community, it's the people in the community who are producing content for everyone else. If you think the intro to WO material sucks, then help produce some new content and examples. That's how any community stays vibrant -- by having members that involve themselves in making it compelling. This is why mDimension, Chuck/GVC, Anjo, Quinton, Henrique, Lachlan, and all the other people do what they do. I think we all recognize that WO is powerful and contributing keeps it fresh and moving forward. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/jmlittle%40gmail.com This email sent to jmlit...@gmail.com ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
And that's a REALLY good thing. I always get pissed off when I upgrade Mac OS X Server, and the WO installation is also upgraded, causing my apps to break or malfunction. Separating both is really good news for me. My feeling is that anything that separates WebObjects from Apple's product release cycle (without killing it outright*) is a good thing. 100% yes. ms ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
yllan, year over year it's the same song I can understand your problem : http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/ MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?i=261634423id=261634131s=143442 Predict the future is a very hard task, very error prone exercice : Top 20 financial institutions by market capitalization in 1999 vs 2009 http://www.leap2020.eu/GEAB-N-35-is-available!-Global-systemic-crisis- June-2009-When-the-world-steps-out-of-a-sixty-year-old- referential_a3248.html Apple vs Java : http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc? t=5ys=AAPLl=onz=mq=lc=JAVA Sorry, Apple vs Oracle : http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc? t=2ys=ORCLl=onz=mq=lc=AAPL It's clear that Apple is doing big business today , directly with the help of WebObjects but for my (2 cents ) point of view, the only thing I know today is very simple : We don't know what Apple will do in the future with WebObjects and that's a major trouble for some of us You can consider other alternatives like Hibernate : http:// blog.xebia.com/2009/02/07/hibernate-and-multi-threading/ Stephane PS : I'm not pur capitalistic guy, but sometimes I'm testing myself as a small banking institution IBCM : International Bank of Chatenay-Malabry http://www.kiva.org/ lender/stephane4127 - Click on Map View ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Subject: Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
I got inside news from a top secret web site that Apple is switching their online platforms over to ASP dot net :-p On Jun 13, 2009, at 9:09 AM, webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote: Subject: Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects Johnny Miller Kahalawai Media Corp w: www.kahalawai.com e: jlmil...@kahalawai.com p: 808.661.7962 ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
On Jun 13, 2009, at 12:15 PM, Janine Sisk wrote: Also, regarding the lack of WO stuff at WWDC this year - I mentioned this to an Apple employee who sat next to me at lunch, and he said that Apple put all their resources into WOWODC this year since that's where the most WO users are. This make perfect sense to me, especially since WWDC was so much all iPhone, all the time that I expect there was fierce competition for every time slot. We probably got more attention from Apple this way, and I'm ok with that. I have to say that I'd never been happier with the content. WOWODC was awesome with great content from the whole community and Apple. We even got a technology preview of Gianduia. ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
On Jun 13, 2009, at 2:36 PM, Simon McLean wrote: I think it takes about 5 years development experience with WO for these kind of posts not to phase you. I'd have to agree. I just hit the five year mark, and after attending WOWODC, the future couldn't be brighter in my opinion. I was actually getting worried that we had gone through the entire week without the obligatory end of the WOrld post on the list. I feel better now. I would really worry if there wasn't enough interest to in the technology to lash out at Apple every year :-O And, if MIke is happy, I am HAPPY! Thanks to everyone in the community that has made this such a great platform for development. Berney ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
Re: Snow Leopard compatibility and the future of webobjects
On Jun 13, 2009, at 1:36 PM, Simon McLean wrote: I think it takes about 5 years development experience with WO for these kind of posts not to phase you. it's a bit like a jehovah witness: they knock at your door from time to time, predict doom, gloom and the end of existence as we know it. but then a few days later it's all forgotten - like a bad dream - and you crack on with your WOnderful life ... Yeah, if you are prone to anxiety this might not be the technology for you! Chuck -- Chuck Hill Senior Consultant / VP Development Come to WOWODC'09 in San Fran this June! http://www.wocommunity.org/wowodc09/ ___ Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored. Webobjects-dev mailing list (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com) Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription: http://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/archive%40mail-archive.com This email sent to arch...@mail-archive.com
