Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Greg Troxel]

Xant  writes:

> But honestly... is frequency a concern regardless of location?

Some people wish to comply with RF spectrum usage regulations.

It would not surprise me if a company attempted to avoid facilitating
violating the rules, such as by not having the web service work for a
unit that is operated in a place where it is not approved.   From the US
legal POV this is perfectly reasonable behavior.

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Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Xant]

Greg

Back to the Solar Radiation, UV and Illuminance.

There are indeed debate regarding direct conversion from Radiation to 
Illumination (as definitely different entities). Although, extrapolation by 
a multiplier seems to provide close results (Lux ~ 119.*Rad), per related 
following references:


   - US Dept of Commerce / National Bureau of Standards, Solar Radiation 
   and Illumination [1981]: 
   
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GOVPUB-C13-42a9d8afbf69d850c07ab73935aef0ab/pdf/GOVPUB-C13-42a9d8afbf69d850c07ab73935aef0ab.pdf
   - Watts to Luxes Ratio for Sollar Radiation by TMY Data for Odessa 
   [2017]: 
   
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318260849_Watts_to_Luxes_Ratio_for_Sollar_Radiation_by_TMY_Data_for_Odessa
   
Per your previous posting and statement: "One might even be convinced that 
the errors are small relative to the claimed accuracy", as building a table 
of interpolation points.

The above references indeed certify your correct comments... therefore, 
much credits to you.

Xant

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Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Xant]

Ok... don't want to make this a tug-of-war, but my "un-scientific" fell is 
that you can bring any PWS hardware to anywhere, and expectations that they 
would communicate just fine (regardless of local regulations).

Then, there is the upload to usual OEM Weather website, which by my 
previous posting, some don't make much easy (which they should still 
puzzles me why they would care to restrict). But you are free with WeeWX.

I had a previous run with Ambient Weather WS-1550-IP, which it seems 
actually a Chinese brand, and sold under diverse brand names. The system 
itself is much affordable, with extra sensors, but much trouble with 
ObserverIP "overload". If frequency is of concern, I may assume that some 
version may exist.

Also assuming that most US brands to refers to 915 MHz, regardless if sold 
in different markets.

But honestly... is frequency a concern regardless of location?

Again, this is "un-scientific", so I can take some educated criticism...

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Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[vince]

On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 9:45:15 AM UTC-7, Sean Jahnig wrote:
>
> I contacted weatherflow regarding their station and they said they're not 
> selling it outside of the us and Canada because of frequencies etc. That 
> are designed only to work in those places. I guess that means it won't have 
> full functionality outside of us and Canada 
>
 
>
 
>

That's not quite completely accurate.   They initially did a run of over 
3000 units for their kickstarter supporters, split between US and European 
frequency compatible gear.   After that they did additional hardware runs 
for the US market only, if I recall correctly.

Their 'rain check' functionality was initially rolled out US only as well, 
so it's possible that they simply delayed non-US additional units until 
they could support everybody just as well.

They also pre-announced a coming revision of the station on their website 
just the other day, which from the picture looks like it's all going to be 
in one unit seemingly built on the same kind of technology.  Of course with 
(another) kickstarter it's very hard to predict what the actual hardware 
will look like or how good it will be, especially initially.  But that's 
the risk of saving some money and going the kickstarter initial supporter 
route rather than waiting for the generally available gear to become 
available.
 

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Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Xant]

Greg

Your interpretation of Radio Frequencies seems correct. Although, my note 
regarding OEM data upload still to consider as a personal experience in 
other sides of the Globe.

By other posting, it seems that Sean Jahnig already decided and bought an 
Acurite... which I also think (not sure if frequency to other markets), 
only provides to 915 MHz.

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Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Greg Troxel]

Sean Jahnig  writes:

> I contacted weatherflow regarding their station and they said they're not
> selling it outside of the us and Canada because of frequencies etc. That
> are designed only to work in those places. I guess that means it won't have
> full functionality outside of us and canada

I don't think that's the right interpretation.

There is a notion of unlicensed radiofrequency usage, typically for
short-range communications, and many countries have regulations about
this.  However, a lot of them are different and in particular the
frequencies that are allowed are different.  My understanding is that US
and Canadian rules are very similar.

In the US this goes by the name "Part 15" (from 47 CFR 15), and you will
find hobbyist parts that operate on 915 MHz here but in Europe are
supposed to be operated on 868 MHz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISM_band
https://www.adafruit.com/product/3070


WiFi has similar issues, with different channels in different countries.

I really don't know the details  of WF, but if they say they're only
selling it in US/CAN because of "frequencies", that's a huge clue that
the device transmits on frequencies that are not necessarily authorized
in other countries.

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Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Xant]

Not sure where is your weather pole location, but here is a bit of debate 
to consider.

I previously took an Acurite 5x1 to family in Brazil. Upon installing and 
connecting, the Acurite website was not registering "Brazil" as a location, 
so we had to register as US based. The result is that uploaded data was all 
correct (per measurements), but the forecast was to be ignored as it not 
really reflects the right location. 

That shows dependency of your PWS hardware OEM againt their Website and 
controls.

But for us "WeeWX enthusiasts" this debate is futile, as all PWS data are 
under our control.

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Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Sean Jahnig]

Thanks for the update.

I contacted weatherflow regarding their station and they said they're not
selling it outside of the us and Canada because of frequencies etc. That
are designed only to work in those places. I guess that means it won't have
full functionality outside of us and canada

Thanks,

Sean Jahnig

m.  +97150 475 4234
e.  seanocas...@gmail.com

On Wed, 16 Oct 2019, 19:51 Xant,  wrote:

>
> After the above reference regarding Windguru, I implemented the plugin
> service into WeeWX and start uploading to Windguru website (easy process,
> and uploading in minutes).
>
> Upon uploading PWS data to Windguru, said that account would be upgraded
> to PRO (as incentive for contribution and removal of Ads). It didn't
> happened "automatically" and I sent email to Vaclav Hornik (Czech
> Republic), whom seen to do it all - Windguru creator, webmaster and
> winsurfer (as said himself).
>
>
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Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Xant]

After the above reference regarding Windguru, I implemented the plugin 
service into WeeWX and start uploading to Windguru website (easy process, 
and uploading in minutes).

Upon uploading PWS data to Windguru, said that account would be upgraded to 
PRO (as incentive for contribution and removal of Ads). It didn't happened 
"automatically" and I sent email to Vaclav Hornik (Czech Republic), whom 
seen to do it all - Windguru creator, webmaster and winsurfer (as said 
himself).


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Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Xant]

Not much familiar (yet) with Windguru, but it seems simple to feed through 
WeeWX as the following:

https://github.com/claudobahn/weewx-windguru

That said, not necessary a PWS model/hardware, but upload software 
(https://stations.windguru.cz/)


Xant

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Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Sean Jahnig]

Thanks for the info.

I'm very interested in that weatherflow station. Does it communicate
seamlessly with windguru for live wind?

Thanks

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 6:20 AM Xant  wrote:

>
> Let me point some further features and integrations of WeatherFlow:
>
> 1) WF API
> https://weatherflow.github.io/SmartWeather/api/
>
> 2) WF and IFTTT
> https://ifttt.com/weatherflow
> It can upload data to Google Sheets (very interesting)
>
> Xant
>
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> .
>

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[weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Xant]

Let me point some further features and integrations of WeatherFlow:

1) WF API
https://weatherflow.github.io/SmartWeather/api/

2) WF and IFTTT
https://ifttt.com/weatherflow
It can upload data to Google Sheets (very interesting)

Xant

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Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Thomas Keffer]

Your posts were not deleted. They were sent to the "moderator's folder,"
for review. I don't know why. In any case, I released them all this morning.

On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 6:16 AM Xant  wrote:

>
> Apologies once again if you receiving multiple copies of messages, as my
> posting was been immediately deleted by GoogleGroups. Turned out, it seems
> due to image plots trying to be inserted (which I previously done at no
> problem). Now avoiding pics into messages. Back to main issue...
>
>
> Agreed to all above Greg. Thanks for thoughts, as your EXCELLENT response
> well summary all conflicts and debates regarding the
> Radiation/UV/Illuminance issue.
>
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> .
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Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Xant]

Apologies once again if you receiving multiple copies of messages, as my 
posting was been immediately deleted by GoogleGroups. Turned out, it seems 
due to image plots trying to be inserted (which I previously done at no 
problem). Now avoiding pics into messages. Back to main issue...


Agreed to all above Greg. Thanks for thoughts, as your EXCELLENT response 
well summary all conflicts and debates regarding the 
Radiation/UV/Illuminance issue.

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Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Greg Troxel]

I should add (and I'll try to post each of my notes only once --
something is wrong where there are multiple copies of many of your
messages, so it would be good if you looked into and fixed that):

I make plots of solar radiation and UV from my archive, and decided to
plot them together and made up factor for plotting -- without claiming
that it's meaningful, just to get things at a similar scale to look at.
Basically when I started plotting, I picked a pure sunny day and
divided, and used that.

It's clear that the actual ratio of irradiance to UV index changes
between winter and summer (for the daily peaks).  This isn't really
surprising, as the peak sun angle is much lower in winter and either of
these being angle dependent isn't odd, but it was interesting to see.

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Re: [weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Greg Troxel]

Xant  writes:

> Excerpt note from WF developer:
>
> There are actually two sensors, each tuned to a different part of the light 
> spectrum, in the part we use to measure sunlight (the APDS-9200 from 
> Broadcom). The APDS-9200 reports “lux” (aka “brightness”) and “uv index” 
> directly (which must be calibrated), and we estimate solar radiation from 
> the brightness value assuming it’s light from the sun (ie., we know the 
> makeup of the full spectrum, more of less, even though we’re only measuring 
> radiation from a small portion of the spectrum).

That sounds pretty clear; illuminance and uv index are measured and
solar radiation is estimated.

> and Sensor reference:
>
> https://github.com/CalvEngIO/APDS-9200/blob/master/Docs/APDS-9200.pdf
>
> Long discussion and somehow confusing. Besides stating that WF has in fact 
> 2 Sensors for Radiation, UV and Illumination, the discussion of pure 
> "multiplier" still persists, and does not (clearly) answer the original 
> question if there are any difference among the 3 entities.

The 3 things really are different, and you can't reliably and precisely
obtain any one of them from measurements of the others.

However, their point that one can estimate irradiance from illuminance
by assuming the light source sunlight (clouds etc.) makes sense, and in
particular if one had a data set containing values from their
illuminance sensor and an irradiance sensor, one could just build a
table of interpolation points.  One might even be convinced that the
errors are small relative to the claimed accuracy.

For what it's worth, the Davis VP2+ has sensors for irradiance ("solar
radiation") and UV index, and Davis does not claim to report
illuminance.   Points to Davis for being straightforward.

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[weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Xant]

Ok... with Davis Vue it might be price comparable, but not with high-end 
Davis models (and I do acknowledge rain to be a major been near Seattle).

And do have questioning regarding WF SolarRad, UV and Illumination as the 
following.


WeatherFlow offers SolarRad, UV and Illuminance sensors, but by observing 
the plots underneath, it can be notice that all "peaks & valleys" to be 
very similar, or graphs just different by a "multiplier".




Thus, the following questioning:


1) Are SolarRad, UV index and Illuminance different entities (which it 
should), or correlated by a "multiplier" (which it should not)?

2) Are there actually 3 sensors in WF to measure SolarRad, UV and 
Illuminance separately?


Botton line, is WF claim to provide measurement for SolarRad, UV and 
Illuminance real or "fake news"?

Xant

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[weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Xant]

Thank you Vince to point-out Solar Rad, UV and Illumination discussions 
that are already posted in WF Forums.


Wow... isn't this a "heated" debate? (no pun intended)

Here is one related posting from WF Forums,"*Solar Radiation, Illumance, 
and UV Index, is there any difference?*"

https://community.weatherflow.com/t/solar-radiation-illuminance-and-uv-index-is-there-any-difference/3004

Excerpt note from WF developer:

There are actually two sensors, each tuned to a different part of the light 
spectrum, in the part we use to measure sunlight (the APDS-9200 from 
Broadcom). The APDS-9200 reports “lux” (aka “brightness”) and “uv index” 
directly (which must be calibrated), and we estimate solar radiation from 
the brightness value assuming it’s light from the sun (ie., we know the 
makeup of the full spectrum, more of less, even though we’re only measuring 
radiation from a small portion of the spectrum).

and Sensor reference:

https://github.com/CalvEngIO/APDS-9200/blob/master/Docs/APDS-9200.pdf

Long discussion and somehow confusing. Besides stating that WF has in fact 
2 Sensors for Radiation, UV and Illumination, the discussion of pure 
"multiplier" still persists, and does not (clearly) answer the original 
question if there are any difference among the 3 entities.

Still... "food for thought".

Xant

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[weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Timothy Buchanan]

After reading these many good opinions and checking provided links and 
other leads, I've decided to buy the WeatherFlow. It was between that and 
the Vue. The main reported downside to the WF (rain accuracy) doesn't apply 
so much here in Colorado where it tends to rain a lot or not. (Today is 
about 4-5 inches of snow.) The main downside to the Vue seems to be the 
interface. I have often found serial/USB connections to be trouble and 
would rather work with UDP packets. Thanks again for the advice.

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[weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[vince]

There have been 'many' discussions about your question on the various 
optical sensors and reported measurements on the WeatherFlow forums.  Far 
too many nuances there to reiterate here.   They answered all the questions 
you asked above.

All the WF sensor data is basically the same as you'd expect.  There are 
sensors that put out a signal.  They convert it to a value.  Sometimes 
there's some math involved based on how your gear is tuned, or located 
lat/lon, etc.

There has been great 'religious view' type discussions there about sensors 
vs. reported values and how the reported values are derived.   I try not to 
get into those threads, as I trust the vendor to know what they're doing.  
They kinda do this stuff large-scale for big companies and governments etc. 
on their many thousand dollar gear.

I did reverse engineer one pair of measurements, I forget which, and found 
that it seemed the default was a simple multiplier.  A few hours of 
research pointed me back at the reference documentation from NWS or the 
like that they derived their formula from.  But they 'do' salt to taste via 
their CL algorithms, so you can't assume that an initial (untuned) 
multiplier is what they're using after your station has been up long enough 
to get tuned by them (which they do not reveal to us).

Regardless, search the WF forums.  The specific things you've asked have 
been asked+answered there with lots of detail.

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[weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Xant]

1) Davis Vue x WF system cost
Acknowledged Davis Vue to be price compatible (instead of Davis higher-end 
models). Also acknowledge rain to be a major issue if around Seattle (not 
much here in UpStateNY).


2) WF SolarRad, UV and Illuminance
I actually start questioning WF regarding SolarRad, UV and Illuminance as 
the plots for all 3 variables repeats every "peaks & valleys". That is, all 
3 plots VERY similar from one-another, and just different by a "multiplier".

Thus, the following:

1) Are SolarRad, UV index and Illuminance different entities (which it 
should), or correlated by a "multiplier" (which should not)?

2) Are there actually 3 sensors in WF to measure SolarRad, UV and 
Illuminance separately?

Bottom line, are WF SolarRad, UV and Illuminance real measurements or "fake 
news"?


Note: tried many times to include a snapshot of plots comparison, but 
GoogleGroups automatically deleting if including image (unfortunately).

Xant

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[weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[vince]

On Thursday, October 10, 2019 at 10:49:23 AM UTC-7, Xant wrote:

> Underneath is a WeeWX website that compares Davis Instrument vs WF (not 
> aware whom owns; Vince, is this yours?):
>
> http://ae3.homelinux.net:845/weewx/compare.html
>
>
No, that's the author of the (nice) weewx driver for the WF station.

It can be noted that measurements are very comparable. Specially 
> considering that Davis (with oudated display and communication) would cost 
> 3-4 times WF.
>
>
Again, maybe where you live, not here near Seattle.   They're within $ 75 
or so in price, which to me is money well spent.  If you built your own WF 
console using a pi then an end-to-end WF is actually 'more' expensive than 
a Vue + datalogger combination here.

But yes, the Davis console is pretty bad.   I glance at it very rarely.  
That's why we use weewx, to have nice web-enabled displays :-)


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[weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Xant]

Vince 
Apologies as posting was take wrongly, as there is parallel discussions on 
the same topic. 


Pila et al

WeatherFlow is "cat" proof! *No wires and no moving parts*.. very sturdy 
construction. Also provides number of sensors that is unusual at this price 
range (without add-on): Temperature, Humidity, Barometric Pressure, Wind 
speed/direction, Rainfall, UV, Solar Radiation, Luminance, Lightning 
count/distance.

Yes, there might be debate regarding their rain sensor. Might be a major 
issue to some, but I'm not concerned.

Underneath is a WeeWX website that compares Davis Instrument vs WF (not 
aware whom owns; Vince, is this yours?):

http://ae3.homelinux.net:845/weewx/compare.html

It can be noted that measurements are very comparable. Specially 
considering that Davis (with oudated display and communication) would cost 
3-4 times WF.

Xant

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[weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Joe]

I would never buy anything but a Davis2 Pro.



On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 6:55:38 PM UTC-5, Timothy Buchanan wrote:
>
> I have a spare Raspberry Pi3 to run WeeWx, but no weather station yet, and 
> would like recommendations. Reliability and accuracy are top priorities, 
> and I'd prefer one of the models marked as tested. I am considering a Davis 
> Vantage Vue, but would I need to buy their pricey USB interface, or could 
> it be interfaced another way? What other stations should I consider? Thanks 
> for all suggestions.
>

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[weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[vince]

On Wednesday, October 9, 2019 at 4:55:38 PM UTC-7, Timothy Buchanan wrote:
>
> I have a spare Raspberry Pi3 to run WeeWx, but no weather station yet, and 
> would like recommendations. Reliability and accuracy are top priorities, 
> and I'd prefer one of the models marked as tested. I am considering a Davis 
> Vantage Vue, but would I need to buy their pricey USB interface, or could 
> it be interfaced another way? What other stations should I consider? Thanks 
> for all suggestions.
>

You'll have to tell us your budget before we can help significantly.

Contrary to other reports below, the WeatherFlow is 'not' accurate if you 
ever get rain.  That's the one big downside.  I previously posted a long 
summary of the pros/cons of that one on another thread the same commenter 
cross-posted their reply to today.

I have both a VP2 and a WF and compare the two regularly.  Davis has a long 
history of reliability and good customer service.  WF is new, but their 
'people' are great.  It's unclear whether their reliability will be as good 
as Davis, but the WF is nicely constructed hardware.

Personally, I'd go Davis Vue and find a way to get their datalogger (yes, 
it's absurdly expensive) if you can afford it, if accuracy is your top 
priority.  The WF rain reports are bad to the point of just don't use any 
of their data.   (admittedly, they're working it, but I wonder if they're 
giving up on the haptic rain sensor technology).


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[weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Pila]

I was recently pondering the same question and came to conclusion that 
price-quality seems to support my current selection. So, I am offering my 
facts.

Fine Offset WS1080 (sold under many names). It seems to have a problem with 
USB port lockups. It can be remedied by automatically restarting it. It is 
said this can happen on a montly basis. OK, so that is sort of 
half-negative. If one has the right USB Hub, WeeWX can restart Weather 
station should a problem arise. For now, I can not comment on USB recovery, 
only that the problem existed on my original station. 

Shortest WeeWx read interval is 5 minutes. External sensors update the 
display every 6 seconds (or something like that) so it captures wind gusts. 
Minus: no extra sensors can be added.

Our was bought over 8 years ago. External sensors were under influence of 
harsh small island sea atmosphere, strong winds (100 km/h) and strong sun. 
And our cats who came to be fatal to it. Windex ball bearing rusted after 
few years - after replacing it, all was well. Display fell down almost 2 
meters to a hard wood floor (a curious kitten was to blame) and got a tiny 
spill damage on the screen. Still works perfectly. After some years, 
external humidity sensor started showing 20% more, which is common for this 
type of sensor. Internal humidity sensor works perfectly. One external 
cable got damaged by the sun, can be easily fixed. Solar charged batteries 
(I used quality NiMh) powering external sensors, lost power over night for 
the first time a day before removal! Measurements are verified to be 
correct. Sun shield for the external temperature sensor is far from perfect 
but can be separated over 1 meter from the rain and wind sensors which is a 
huge plus! After 8 years: apart from these problems, it stil works 
perfectly fine.

It was replaced 3 weeks ago. Why? Cats lost the windex arrow and somehow 
chew off one wind speed paddle (wind speed still works perfectly fine). One 
cable needs to be refited into a plug. Humidity is off 20%. We replaced it 
with the same model, but from a different "brand". Regular EU price 
available to us is 130€. The new one was bought for 100€.

The old one will be reused at another location, where windex and external 
humidity are irrelevant. Intereseting fact: the new model from a different 
vendor would not recognize sensors from the old one. Apart from that, they 
look identicall. 

I would buy it again.

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[weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Xant]

Davis is known as the "cadillac" (prestige) of PWSs. Measurement seems 
precise at short time rate update. I can not advocate, as I never own one, 
due to pricing, outdated display and extra interface.

I went through few "budget" PWSs, that is Acurite (5x1, Atlas) and Ambient 
Weather (ws-1550-ip).

1) Acurite 5x1 served me for many years, till fail due to age and weather 
exposure --> recycle pile

2) Acurite Atlas, the natural update, had a sensor malfunction - and no 
extra sensors (as solar radiation) for nowadays --> returned

3) Ambient Weather WS-1550-IP its an interesting option for the price. But 
ObserverIP gets "overload" after just a day or two, and not suitable for 
WeeWX application --> returned
ObserverIP firmware problem is a known issue (even by the developer), said 
to be resolved, but NOT. Upon return, this was NOT acknowledged and charged 
for the return besides proof of difficulties (avoid!).

My current recommendation is *WeatherFlow Smart PWS*. At a "budget" and on 
top of the "usual" measuring sensors, WeatherFlow has also sensors for 
Radiation, UV, Illuminance and Lightning. And most important *at NO 
moving parts*! (similar options would cost a lot more).

https://weatherflow.com/smart-home-weather-stations/

No matter what you choose, and also to note, *verify that your PWS of 
choice has a working WeeWX driver (very important!)*. All the above works 
with WeeWX.

Xant

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[weewx-user] Re: Weather station recommendations?

[Andrew Milner]

I use the vantage pro with a belfryboy logger that appears to work just fine
https://belfryboyweatherbits.blogspot.com/p/the-belfryboy-clone-usb-logger.html



On Thursday, 10 October 2019 02:55:38 UTC+3, Timothy Buchanan wrote:
>
> I have a spare Raspberry Pi3 to run WeeWx, but no weather station yet, and 
> would like recommendations. Reliability and accuracy are top priorities, 
> and I'd prefer one of the models marked as tested. I am considering a Davis 
> Vantage Vue, but would I need to buy their pricey USB interface, or could 
> it be interfaced another way? What other stations should I consider? Thanks 
> for all suggestions.
>

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