Re: [WISPA] Future
How could anyone ever get mad at you Marlon?!?! :-) Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future I just got back a customer that left us for sat service. Took less than a year for him to come back (and he left because he got mad at me, not because of the service so you know the service had to really suck). marlon - Original Message - From: Tom Warfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 6:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future You forgot satellite which is picking up steam. Honestly. Now is the time to sell! (hence one of the reasons I sold last month.) Unless your servicing very rural area with almost no population. -Original Message- From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:44 PM To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Future What do you see as the future of our industry over the next 5 years? ATT is expanding U-Verse (will this be available outside of town?) Verizon is expanding FiOS (will this be available outside of town?) Cable will be using DOCSIS 3 3G will gain more steam WiMAX will have larger and larger shares of the market 700 MHz will be in use possibly for data communications by the big guys My banker asked me, so I figured I'd see what other's opinions are. My thought is that the big guys mentioned above will continue to avoid the niche that we currently serve and we'll be able to provide better services with more spectrum (5.4 GHz, additional 2.5 GHz, 3.6 GHz, possibly TV white spaces) and WiMAX. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ [The entire original message is not included] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Wi-Fi Blocking Paint
Surprised no one has posted this before. Looks like an old article. http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/hughes/10031/wi-fi-blocking-paint WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Future
And what do you use to control that bandwidth? Chuck McCown wrote: We sell 10.2 Mbps burst service. And most of them actually get that speed. If they start streaming or downloading a large file, we throttle them down. Most are at 768. When the stream or download stops, they go back to wide open throttle. Customers love it. - Original Message - From: D. Ryan Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 2:41 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Chuck, What speeds do you sell to your end customers at 128:1 oversub? (I am assuming that you never really go this high!) :) ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future That is pretty much what we do on Motorola Canopy. 20 MHz channels. 128:1 (or less) over subscription 10 Mbps First AP and BH would be in the $5K range Second AP would be in the $2K range. (depending on antennas etc). We are waiting to see what the OFDM product will do. Smaller channels. More speed. (more money too). - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Anyone doing a 20 MHz channel? Would that be enough capacity to allow for typical oversubscription on say a 10 meg client? What does it cost to get the first AP up ($5k, $15k, $50k)? What does it cost to get additional APs up ($2k, $10k, $30k)? -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jeff Booher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Chuck, Airspan / Aperto are both shipping 5x Ghz wimax products. Throughput is about 26mb peak for the Airspan product on 10mhz channels, and 22mb on the Aperto product in 7mhz channels. Also, there are ways to get around the exclusion zones, if you find out who the licenseholders are. - Jeff On Apr 21, 2008, at 1:20 PM, CHUCK PROFITO wrote: Patrick, Excellent point on channel sizes! So if WiMAX is released in unlicensed frequencies of 900, 2.4? , 5.X, 3.6 (we are in a big exclusion zone.) I imagine if you deployed in 2.4 it would smoke the home routers. Would our capacity double for the same channel sizes? Would it use the same channel sizes? Would it help with range and capacity? Will WiMax help tree penetration? Can Physics be bent? In legacy deployments, would or could it improve our back hauls? Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:01 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Patrick, If not 70 miles and 30 mbps, what are the real numbers on the fixed, for say: 2 miles los? 2 miles wooded? 5 m los? 5 m nlos? 10 m los? 10 m nlos ?? Is this a fair question? Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 9:14 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future The press has been wrong most of time, causing companies like ours great headaches. The stupid 70 miles 30 mbps was the most absurd bit of hyperbole that the press picked up and repeated endlessly. Meanwhile, Mo Shakouri (the Marketing VP of the WiMAX Forum and an Alvarion exec) was trying to dispel that at every turn (I sat in on many of his public sessions). Others of us also were trying to correct the expectations. I did it in numerous analyst and press interviews. WiMAX is also doing well overseas, especially in Asia. WiMAX's greatest near term challenge in the U.S. is Sprint. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 8:57 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future WiMax as hyped by the press is dead. No? - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future I agree with the vast majority of what Chuck says here and only partially disagree even on the WiMAX part (though I disagree strongly on the WiMAX is dead part -- we have sold over $100M to date of it). The main takeaway with Chuck's post is that WISPs will have strong opportunities for a
Re: [WISPA] Future
The Canopy SM does this ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs.net Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:44 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future And what do you use to control that bandwidth? Chuck McCown wrote: We sell 10.2 Mbps burst service. And most of them actually get that speed. If they start streaming or downloading a large file, we throttle them down. Most are at 768. When the stream or download stops, they go back to wide open throttle. Customers love it. - Original Message - From: D. Ryan Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 2:41 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Chuck, What speeds do you sell to your end customers at 128:1 oversub? (I am assuming that you never really go this high!) :) ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future That is pretty much what we do on Motorola Canopy. 20 MHz channels. 128:1 (or less) over subscription 10 Mbps First AP and BH would be in the $5K range Second AP would be in the $2K range. (depending on antennas etc). We are waiting to see what the OFDM product will do. Smaller channels. More speed. (more money too). - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:17 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Anyone doing a 20 MHz channel? Would that be enough capacity to allow for typical oversubscription on say a 10 meg client? What does it cost to get the first AP up ($5k, $15k, $50k)? What does it cost to get additional APs up ($2k, $10k, $30k)? -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jeff Booher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Chuck, Airspan / Aperto are both shipping 5x Ghz wimax products. Throughput is about 26mb peak for the Airspan product on 10mhz channels, and 22mb on the Aperto product in 7mhz channels. Also, there are ways to get around the exclusion zones, if you find out who the licenseholders are. - Jeff On Apr 21, 2008, at 1:20 PM, CHUCK PROFITO wrote: Patrick, Excellent point on channel sizes! So if WiMAX is released in unlicensed frequencies of 900, 2.4? , 5.X, 3.6 (we are in a big exclusion zone.) I imagine if you deployed in 2.4 it would smoke the home routers. Would our capacity double for the same channel sizes? Would it use the same channel sizes? Would it help with range and capacity? Will WiMax help tree penetration? Can Physics be bent? In legacy deployments, would or could it improve our back hauls? Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:01 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Patrick, If not 70 miles and 30 mbps, what are the real numbers on the fixed, for say: 2 miles los? 2 miles wooded? 5 m los? 5 m nlos? 10 m los? 10 m nlos ?? Is this a fair question? Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 9:14 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future The press has been wrong most of time, causing companies like ours great headaches. The stupid 70 miles 30 mbps was the most absurd bit of hyperbole that the press picked up and repeated endlessly. Meanwhile, Mo Shakouri (the Marketing VP of the WiMAX Forum and an Alvarion exec) was trying to dispel that at every turn (I sat in on many of his public sessions). Others of us also were trying to correct the expectations. I did it in numerous analyst and press interviews. WiMAX is also doing well overseas, especially in Asia. WiMAX's greatest near term challenge in the U.S. is Sprint. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 8:57 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future WiMax as hyped by the press is dead. No? - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 9:52 AM Subject: Re:
Re: [WISPA] Wi-Fi Blocking Paint
I wonder if it also works well as WiMax-blocking paint ... == Stephen Patrick Cablefree Solutions Ltd Web:www.cablefreesolutions.com == -Original Message- From: Kurt Fankhauser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 April 2008 14:44 To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: [WISPA] Wi-Fi Blocking Paint Surprised no one has posted this before. Looks like an old article. http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/hughes/10031/wi-fi-blocking-paint WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.3/1392 - Release Date: 22/04/2008 15:51 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Future
FTTH ONT pricing (the unit on the house) keeps falling. They are about $400 now. You can put in fiber for $1-2/foot (if you have a clear ROW). The CO end is about $50K/terminal that is capable of serving thousands. I don't know what the pro-rata single fiber COT card is, but I think they are are around $2K/port with each port serving 32 on a PON. So, if the plowing is good and the ROWs are clear and free, you can probably get a customer installed (in a fairly dense surburban area) for less than $1500 each. Triple play for $100/month. And you have them for life. Of course this assumes you build it yourself and you already have a NOC and you already have access to and IPTV stream etc. But it is doable. There is a business case for building such a system. Main thing is to do it before the ILEC/RBOC does it. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Well Mike, the way I see it is that the sky has been falling my entire time as an ISP (over a decade now). WiMax is still a joke in the market place. 3G is too slow and too expensive. 700 is not deployed in any level that matters and doesn't look like it will be any time soon. Cable is in trouble because they are dying under the load of the high end users they they keep getting. They need all of the capacity they can come up with for HDTV channels but broadband is taking up too much space on the coax. They also JUST put in their networks. The big companies aren't structured to reinvest in new hardware every few years. I'd say that they will continue to grow and continue to piss off their base. I'm not worried about cable. As for ATT and Verizon? People already hate the service and prices they have, so far I can sell against them. Fiber is cool, I have FTTH customers. But man is it expensive! There's just no way to ever make the investment back at today's pricing levels. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:44 PM Subject: [WISPA] Future What do you see as the future of our industry over the next 5 years? ATT is expanding U-Verse (will this be available outside of town?) Verizon is expanding FiOS (will this be available outside of town?) Cable will be using DOCSIS 3 3G will gain more steam WiMAX will have larger and larger shares of the market 700 MHz will be in use possibly for data communications by the big guys My banker asked me, so I figured I'd see what other's opinions are. My thought is that the big guys mentioned above will continue to avoid the niche that we currently serve and we'll be able to provide better services with more spectrum (5.4 GHz, additional 2.5 GHz, 3.6 GHz, possibly TV white spaces) and WiMAX. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Can anyone service this area ?
Hello, Anyone who can service this location ? 1480 Oakridge Farms Road Osteen, Fl 32764 Please contact me off list. Thanks. Faisal Imtiaz SnappyDSL.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Future
A couple quick things: (1) You don't necessarily have them for life. People can change to DISH and a wireless provider and do VoIP over that. Especially if they can save $5/month, a lot of people will change. DISH is $35/month for decent programming. Wireless is another $40/month and VoIP can be had for $20/month. (2) It looks good with those numbers, but realistically you have costs way above just the install. On a $100/month customer how much gross profit do you actually make after buying bandwidth, transport, TV channels, VoIP service, etc. I really have no idea, so I am asking. Do you make $20 gross? $1,500 / $20 = 75 months breakeven and this doesn't include support costs, etc. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown wrote: FTTH ONT pricing (the unit on the house) keeps falling. They are about $400 now. You can put in fiber for $1-2/foot (if you have a clear ROW). The CO end is about $50K/terminal that is capable of serving thousands. I don't know what the pro-rata single fiber COT card is, but I think they are are around $2K/port with each port serving 32 on a PON. So, if the plowing is good and the ROWs are clear and free, you can probably get a customer installed (in a fairly dense surburban area) for less than $1500 each. Triple play for $100/month. And you have them for life. Of course this assumes you build it yourself and you already have a NOC and you already have access to and IPTV stream etc. But it is doable. There is a business case for building such a system. Main thing is to do it before the ILEC/RBOC does it. - Original Message - From: "Marlon K. Schafer" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Well Mike, the way I see it is that the sky has been falling my entire time as an ISP (over a decade now). WiMax is still a joke in the market place. 3G is too slow and too expensive. 700 is not deployed in any level that matters and doesn't look like it will be any time soon. Cable is in trouble because they are dying under the load of the high end users they they keep getting. They need all of the capacity they can come up with for HDTV channels but broadband is taking up too much space on the coax. They also JUST put in their networks. The big companies aren't structured to reinvest in new hardware every few years. I'd say that they will continue to grow and continue to piss off their base. I'm not worried about cable. As for ATT and Verizon? People already hate the service and prices they have, so far I can sell against them. Fiber is cool, I have FTTH customers. But man is it expensive! There's just no way to ever make the investment back at today's pricing levels. marlon - Original Message - From: "Mike Hammett" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:44 PM Subject: [WISPA] Future What do you see as the future of our industry over the next 5 years? ATT is expanding U-Verse (will this be available outside of town?) Verizon is expanding FiOS (will this be available outside of town?) Cable will be using DOCSIS 3 3G will gain more steam WiMAX will have larger and larger shares of the market 700 MHz will be in use possibly for data communications by the big guys My banker asked me, so I figured I'd see what other's opinions are. My thought is that the big guys mentioned above will continue to avoid the niche that we currently serve and we'll be able to provide better services with more spectrum (5.4 GHz, additional 2.5 GHz, 3.6 GHz, possibly TV white spaces) and WiMAX. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Future
Chuck, I'm currently working a proposal for FTTH for a 654 unit developement. I would like to know where you are getting these numbers on the equipment. I had one company give me a price of $3,500.00 per unit, and another for $2,800.00 per unit. Please let us know where we can find a reasonable company on equipment prices. I've searched for weeks, put I cannot pin anyone company down on line item prices. If this developement works, then I will have 3 more to do at about 2,000 units per developement. DSLbyAir www.dslbyair.com --- Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FTTH ONT pricing (the unit on the house) keeps falling. They are about $400 now. You can put in fiber for $1-2/foot (if you have a clear ROW). The CO end is about $50K/terminal that is capable of serving thousands. I don't know what the pro-rata single fiber COT card is, but I think they are are around $2K/port with each port serving 32 on a PON. So, if the plowing is good and the ROWs are clear and free, you can probably get a customer installed (in a fairly dense surburban area) for less than $1500 each. Triple play for $100/month. And you have them for life. Of course this assumes you build it yourself and you already have a NOC and you already have access to and IPTV stream etc. But it is doable. There is a business case for building such a system. Main thing is to do it before the ILEC/RBOC does it. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Well Mike, the way I see it is that the sky has been falling my entire time as an ISP (over a decade now). WiMax is still a joke in the market place. 3G is too slow and too expensive. 700 is not deployed in any level that matters and doesn't look like it will be any time soon. Cable is in trouble because they are dying under the load of the high end users they they keep getting. They need all of the capacity they can come up with for HDTV channels but broadband is taking up too much space on the coax. They also JUST put in their networks. The big companies aren't structured to reinvest in new hardware every few years. I'd say that they will continue to grow and continue to piss off their base. I'm not worried about cable. As for ATT and Verizon? People already hate the service and prices they have, so far I can sell against them. Fiber is cool, I have FTTH customers. But man is it expensive! There's just no way to ever make the investment back at today's pricing levels. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:44 PM Subject: [WISPA] Future What do you see as the future of our industry over the next 5 years? ATT is expanding U-Verse (will this be available outside of town?) Verizon is expanding FiOS (will this be available outside of town?) Cable will be using DOCSIS 3 3G will gain more steam WiMAX will have larger and larger shares of the market 700 MHz will be in use possibly for data communications by the big guys My banker asked me, so I figured I'd see what other's opinions are. My thought is that the big guys mentioned above will continue to avoid the niche that we currently serve and we'll be able to provide better services with more spectrum (5.4 GHz, additional 2.5 GHz, 3.6 GHz, possibly TV white spaces) and WiMAX. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Future
Highly variable. TV content is costly. Everyone has different costs for transport. But if you are delivering symmetric 10-100 mbps and the TV and phone are a good value, you will probably lock in the customer. On the telco side of the house, we try to make the system pay for itself over a 20 year amortization. If you live in an area served by frontier telephone, might as well go borrow the money and build it because they never will. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future A couple quick things: (1) You don't necessarily have them for life. People can change to DISH and a wireless provider and do VoIP over that. Especially if they can save $5/month, a lot of people will change. DISH is $35/month for decent programming. Wireless is another $40/month and VoIP can be had for $20/month. (2) It looks good with those numbers, but realistically you have costs way above just the install. On a $100/month customer how much gross profit do you actually make after buying bandwidth, transport, TV channels, VoIP service, etc. I really have no idea, so I am asking. Do you make $20 gross? $1,500 / $20 = 75 months breakeven and this doesn't include support costs, etc. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown wrote: FTTH ONT pricing (the unit on the house) keeps falling. They are about $400 now. You can put in fiber for $1-2/foot (if you have a clear ROW). The CO end is about $50K/terminal that is capable of serving thousands. I don't know what the pro-rata single fiber COT card is, but I think they are are around $2K/port with each port serving 32 on a PON. So, if the plowing is good and the ROWs are clear and free, you can probably get a customer installed (in a fairly dense surburban area) for less than $1500 each. Triple play for $100/month. And you have them for life. Of course this assumes you build it yourself and you already have a NOC and you already have access to and IPTV stream etc. But it is doable. There is a business case for building such a system. Main thing is to do it before the ILEC/RBOC does it. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Well Mike, the way I see it is that the sky has been falling my entire time as an ISP (over a decade now). WiMax is still a joke in the market place. 3G is too slow and too expensive. 700 is not deployed in any level that matters and doesn't look like it will be any time soon. Cable is in trouble because they are dying under the load of the high end users they they keep getting. They need all of the capacity they can come up with for HDTV channels but broadband is taking up too much space on the coax. They also JUST put in their networks. The big companies aren't structured to reinvest in new hardware every few years. I'd say that they will continue to grow and continue to piss off their base. I'm not worried about cable. As for ATT and Verizon? People already hate the service and prices they have, so far I can sell against them. Fiber is cool, I have FTTH customers. But man is it expensive! There's just no way to ever make the investment back at today's pricing levels. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:44 PM Subject: [WISPA] Future What do you see as the future of our industry over the next 5 years? ATT is expanding U-Verse (will this be available outside of town?) Verizon is expanding FiOS (will this be available outside of town?) Cable will be using DOCSIS 3 3G will gain more steam WiMAX will have larger and larger shares of the market 700 MHz will be in use possibly for data communications by the big guys My banker asked me, so I figured I'd see what other's opinions are. My thought is that the big guys mentioned above will continue to avoid the niche that we currently serve and we'll be able to provide better services with more spectrum (5.4 GHz, additional 2.5 GHz, 3.6 GHz, possibly TV white spaces) and WiMAX. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Future
Panaway. GPON - Original Message - From: Joe Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Chuck, I'm currently working a proposal for FTTH for a 654 unit developement. I would like to know where you are getting these numbers on the equipment. I had one company give me a price of $3,500.00 per unit, and another for $2,800.00 per unit. Please let us know where we can find a reasonable company on equipment prices. I've searched for weeks, put I cannot pin anyone company down on line item prices. If this developement works, then I will have 3 more to do at about 2,000 units per developement. DSLbyAir www.dslbyair.com --- Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FTTH ONT pricing (the unit on the house) keeps falling. They are about $400 now. You can put in fiber for $1-2/foot (if you have a clear ROW). The CO end is about $50K/terminal that is capable of serving thousands. I don't know what the pro-rata single fiber COT card is, but I think they are are around $2K/port with each port serving 32 on a PON. So, if the plowing is good and the ROWs are clear and free, you can probably get a customer installed (in a fairly dense surburban area) for less than $1500 each. Triple play for $100/month. And you have them for life. Of course this assumes you build it yourself and you already have a NOC and you already have access to and IPTV stream etc. But it is doable. There is a business case for building such a system. Main thing is to do it before the ILEC/RBOC does it. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Well Mike, the way I see it is that the sky has been falling my entire time as an ISP (over a decade now). WiMax is still a joke in the market place. 3G is too slow and too expensive. 700 is not deployed in any level that matters and doesn't look like it will be any time soon. Cable is in trouble because they are dying under the load of the high end users they they keep getting. They need all of the capacity they can come up with for HDTV channels but broadband is taking up too much space on the coax. They also JUST put in their networks. The big companies aren't structured to reinvest in new hardware every few years. I'd say that they will continue to grow and continue to piss off their base. I'm not worried about cable. As for ATT and Verizon? People already hate the service and prices they have, so far I can sell against them. Fiber is cool, I have FTTH customers. But man is it expensive! There's just no way to ever make the investment back at today's pricing levels. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:44 PM Subject: [WISPA] Future What do you see as the future of our industry over the next 5 years? ATT is expanding U-Verse (will this be available outside of town?) Verizon is expanding FiOS (will this be available outside of town?) Cable will be using DOCSIS 3 3G will gain more steam WiMAX will have larger and larger shares of the market 700 MHz will be in use possibly for data communications by the big guys My banker asked me, so I figured I'd see what other's opinions are. My thought is that the big guys mentioned above will continue to avoid the niche that we currently serve and we'll be able to provide better services with more spectrum (5.4 GHz, additional 2.5 GHz, 3.6 GHz, possibly TV white spaces) and WiMAX. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
[WISPA] Interesting FCC Testimony
http://lessig.org/blog/2008/04/testifying_fcc_stanford.html Interesting presentation. On Net Neutrality. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Future
The fiber would be good for 20 years and is the most costly part, but the other pieces wouldn't be good for 20 years... I'd say only 5 years on active components. They may technically work, but they'd be so outdated by then you wouldn't want them anymore. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Highly variable. TV content is costly. Everyone has different costs for transport. But if you are delivering symmetric 10-100 mbps and the TV and phone are a good value, you will probably lock in the customer. On the telco side of the house, we try to make the system pay for itself over a 20 year amortization. If you live in an area served by frontier telephone, might as well go borrow the money and build it because they never will. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future A couple quick things: (1) You don't necessarily have them for life. People can change to DISH and a wireless provider and do VoIP over that. Especially if they can save $5/month, a lot of people will change. DISH is $35/month for decent programming. Wireless is another $40/month and VoIP can be had for $20/month. (2) It looks good with those numbers, but realistically you have costs way above just the install. On a $100/month customer how much gross profit do you actually make after buying bandwidth, transport, TV channels, VoIP service, etc. I really have no idea, so I am asking. Do you make $20 gross? $1,500 / $20 = 75 months breakeven and this doesn't include support costs, etc. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown wrote: FTTH ONT pricing (the unit on the house) keeps falling. They are about $400 now. You can put in fiber for $1-2/foot (if you have a clear ROW). The CO end is about $50K/terminal that is capable of serving thousands. I don't know what the pro-rata single fiber COT card is, but I think they are are around $2K/port with each port serving 32 on a PON. So, if the plowing is good and the ROWs are clear and free, you can probably get a customer installed (in a fairly dense surburban area) for less than $1500 each. Triple play for $100/month. And you have them for life. Of course this assumes you build it yourself and you already have a NOC and you already have access to and IPTV stream etc. But it is doable. There is a business case for building such a system. Main thing is to do it before the ILEC/RBOC does it. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Well Mike, the way I see it is that the sky has been falling my entire time as an ISP (over a decade now). WiMax is still a joke in the market place. 3G is too slow and too expensive. 700 is not deployed in any level that matters and doesn't look like it will be any time soon. Cable is in trouble because they are dying under the load of the high end users they they keep getting. They need all of the capacity they can come up with for HDTV channels but broadband is taking up too much space on the coax. They also JUST put in their networks. The big companies aren't structured to reinvest in new hardware every few years. I'd say that they will continue to grow and continue to piss off their base. I'm not worried about cable. As for ATT and Verizon? People already hate the service and prices they have, so far I can sell against them. Fiber is cool, I have FTTH customers. But man is it expensive! There's just no way to ever make the investment back at today's pricing levels. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:44 PM Subject: [WISPA] Future What do you see as the future of our industry over the next 5 years? ATT is expanding U-Verse (will this be available outside of town?) Verizon is expanding FiOS (will this be available outside of town?) Cable will be using DOCSIS 3 3G will gain more steam WiMAX will have larger and larger shares of the market 700 MHz will be in use possibly for data communications by the big guys My banker asked me, so I figured I'd see what other's opinions are. My thought is that the big guys mentioned above will continue to avoid the niche that we currently serve and we'll be able to provide better services with more spectrum (5.4 GHz, additional 2.5 GHz, 3.6 GHz, possibly TV white spaces) and WiMAX. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Re: [WISPA] Future
I have ONTs that are 5 years old now out in the field and are doing fine. I have class 5 central office switchs deployed that are closer to 10 years old that are still current technology. What is going to get out of date with a GPON ONT? 2.4 Gbps is plenty of bandwidth, don't you think? - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future The fiber would be good for 20 years and is the most costly part, but the other pieces wouldn't be good for 20 years... I'd say only 5 years on active components. They may technically work, but they'd be so outdated by then you wouldn't want them anymore. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Highly variable. TV content is costly. Everyone has different costs for transport. But if you are delivering symmetric 10-100 mbps and the TV and phone are a good value, you will probably lock in the customer. On the telco side of the house, we try to make the system pay for itself over a 20 year amortization. If you live in an area served by frontier telephone, might as well go borrow the money and build it because they never will. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future A couple quick things: (1) You don't necessarily have them for life. People can change to DISH and a wireless provider and do VoIP over that. Especially if they can save $5/month, a lot of people will change. DISH is $35/month for decent programming. Wireless is another $40/month and VoIP can be had for $20/month. (2) It looks good with those numbers, but realistically you have costs way above just the install. On a $100/month customer how much gross profit do you actually make after buying bandwidth, transport, TV channels, VoIP service, etc. I really have no idea, so I am asking. Do you make $20 gross? $1,500 / $20 = 75 months breakeven and this doesn't include support costs, etc. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown wrote: FTTH ONT pricing (the unit on the house) keeps falling. They are about $400 now. You can put in fiber for $1-2/foot (if you have a clear ROW). The CO end is about $50K/terminal that is capable of serving thousands. I don't know what the pro-rata single fiber COT card is, but I think they are are around $2K/port with each port serving 32 on a PON. So, if the plowing is good and the ROWs are clear and free, you can probably get a customer installed (in a fairly dense surburban area) for less than $1500 each. Triple play for $100/month. And you have them for life. Of course this assumes you build it yourself and you already have a NOC and you already have access to and IPTV stream etc. But it is doable. There is a business case for building such a system. Main thing is to do it before the ILEC/RBOC does it. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Well Mike, the way I see it is that the sky has been falling my entire time as an ISP (over a decade now). WiMax is still a joke in the market place. 3G is too slow and too expensive. 700 is not deployed in any level that matters and doesn't look like it will be any time soon. Cable is in trouble because they are dying under the load of the high end users they they keep getting. They need all of the capacity they can come up with for HDTV channels but broadband is taking up too much space on the coax. They also JUST put in their networks. The big companies aren't structured to reinvest in new hardware every few years. I'd say that they will continue to grow and continue to piss off their base. I'm not worried about cable. As for ATT and Verizon? People already hate the service and prices they have, so far I can sell against them. Fiber is cool, I have FTTH customers. But man is it expensive! There's just no way to ever make the investment back at today's pricing levels. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:44 PM Subject: [WISPA] Future What do you see as the future of our industry over the next 5 years? ATT is expanding U-Verse (will this be available outside of town?) Verizon is expanding FiOS (will this be available outside of town?) Cable will be using DOCSIS 3 3G will gain more steam WiMAX will have larger and larger shares of the market 700 MHz will be in use possibly for data communications by the big guys
Re: [WISPA] Future
We think so now, but is something that came out 5 years ago still good enough? Maybe, though I'm leaning towards no. 10 years? No way. Now, yes, a class 5 would be fine because phone technology doesn't change nearly as much as data connectivity, especially with the Web 2.0 boom we're on the begging leg of. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future I have ONTs that are 5 years old now out in the field and are doing fine. I have class 5 central office switchs deployed that are closer to 10 years old that are still current technology. What is going to get out of date with a GPON ONT? 2.4 Gbps is plenty of bandwidth, don't you think? - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future The fiber would be good for 20 years and is the most costly part, but the other pieces wouldn't be good for 20 years... I'd say only 5 years on active components. They may technically work, but they'd be so outdated by then you wouldn't want them anymore. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Highly variable. TV content is costly. Everyone has different costs for transport. But if you are delivering symmetric 10-100 mbps and the TV and phone are a good value, you will probably lock in the customer. On the telco side of the house, we try to make the system pay for itself over a 20 year amortization. If you live in an area served by frontier telephone, might as well go borrow the money and build it because they never will. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future A couple quick things: (1) You don't necessarily have them for life. People can change to DISH and a wireless provider and do VoIP over that. Especially if they can save $5/month, a lot of people will change. DISH is $35/month for decent programming. Wireless is another $40/month and VoIP can be had for $20/month. (2) It looks good with those numbers, but realistically you have costs way above just the install. On a $100/month customer how much gross profit do you actually make after buying bandwidth, transport, TV channels, VoIP service, etc. I really have no idea, so I am asking. Do you make $20 gross? $1,500 / $20 = 75 months breakeven and this doesn't include support costs, etc. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown wrote: FTTH ONT pricing (the unit on the house) keeps falling. They are about $400 now. You can put in fiber for $1-2/foot (if you have a clear ROW). The CO end is about $50K/terminal that is capable of serving thousands. I don't know what the pro-rata single fiber COT card is, but I think they are are around $2K/port with each port serving 32 on a PON. So, if the plowing is good and the ROWs are clear and free, you can probably get a customer installed (in a fairly dense surburban area) for less than $1500 each. Triple play for $100/month. And you have them for life. Of course this assumes you build it yourself and you already have a NOC and you already have access to and IPTV stream etc. But it is doable. There is a business case for building such a system. Main thing is to do it before the ILEC/RBOC does it. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Well Mike, the way I see it is that the sky has been falling my entire time as an ISP (over a decade now). WiMax is still a joke in the market place. 3G is too slow and too expensive. 700 is not deployed in any level that matters and doesn't look like it will be any time soon. Cable is in trouble because they are dying under the load of the high end users they they keep getting. They need all of the capacity they can come up with for HDTV channels but broadband is taking up too much space on the coax. They also JUST put in their networks. The big companies aren't structured to reinvest in new hardware every few years. I'd say that they will continue to grow and continue to piss off their base. I'm not worried about cable. As for ATT and Verizon? People already hate the service and prices they have, so far I can sell against them. Fiber is cool, I have FTTH customers. But man is it expensive! There's just no way to ever make the investment back at today's
Re: [WISPA] Future
OK, let me put it this way; how old is the Ethernet technology/protocol you are using? How old is the 802 Ethernet spec? GPON G.984 compliant equipment is the same as IEEE 802 complaint equipment. A spec is a spec. The G.984 spec was ratified 5 years ago. How old is g.707 SONET? 15 years old? OC-3 is still the workhorse. Are you worrying about the cisco switch you just put in being obsolete in 5 or 10 years due to a change in the Ethernet protocol? Phone technology IS data technology. Our network is fiber, that hauls phone, data, video, anything we can put on it. Layer 4-8 changes but layers 1,23 go on forever. A GPON FTTH system does not venture into anything above layer 3. SONET is as likely to go away before GPON. Tin whiskers from RoHS, majority charge carrier migration of semiconductors and electrolytic capacitor dehydration is going to kill an ONT before any change of technology or protocol will. - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future We think so now, but is something that came out 5 years ago still good enough? Maybe, though I'm leaning towards no. 10 years? No way. Now, yes, a class 5 would be fine because phone technology doesn't change nearly as much as data connectivity, especially with the Web 2.0 boom we're on the begging leg of. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:03 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future I have ONTs that are 5 years old now out in the field and are doing fine. I have class 5 central office switchs deployed that are closer to 10 years old that are still current technology. What is going to get out of date with a GPON ONT? 2.4 Gbps is plenty of bandwidth, don't you think? - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:00 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future The fiber would be good for 20 years and is the most costly part, but the other pieces wouldn't be good for 20 years... I'd say only 5 years on active components. They may technically work, but they'd be so outdated by then you wouldn't want them anymore. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Highly variable. TV content is costly. Everyone has different costs for transport. But if you are delivering symmetric 10-100 mbps and the TV and phone are a good value, you will probably lock in the customer. On the telco side of the house, we try to make the system pay for itself over a 20 year amortization. If you live in an area served by frontier telephone, might as well go borrow the money and build it because they never will. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:34 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future A couple quick things: (1) You don't necessarily have them for life. People can change to DISH and a wireless provider and do VoIP over that. Especially if they can save $5/month, a lot of people will change. DISH is $35/month for decent programming. Wireless is another $40/month and VoIP can be had for $20/month. (2) It looks good with those numbers, but realistically you have costs way above just the install. On a $100/month customer how much gross profit do you actually make after buying bandwidth, transport, TV channels, VoIP service, etc. I really have no idea, so I am asking. Do you make $20 gross? $1,500 / $20 = 75 months breakeven and this doesn't include support costs, etc. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown wrote: FTTH ONT pricing (the unit on the house) keeps falling. They are about $400 now. You can put in fiber for $1-2/foot (if you have a clear ROW). The CO end is about $50K/terminal that is capable of serving thousands. I don't know what the pro-rata single fiber COT card is, but I think they are are around $2K/port with each port serving 32 on a PON. So, if the plowing is good and the ROWs are clear and free, you can probably get a customer installed (in a fairly dense surburban area) for less than $1500 each. Triple play for $100/month. And you have them for life. Of course this assumes you build it yourself and you already have a NOC and you already have access to and IPTV stream etc. But it is doable. There is a business case for building such a system. Main thing is to do it before the ILEC/RBOC does it. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:
[WISPA] Sector Placement
Anyone know for a fact if it is worthy to seperate sector antennas on the same tower. Using 2.4 H Pol 16 db We are readying our 31st tower location and I have been asked why do we seperate the sectors . Besides the reasonable fact that if you place 3 sectors on a 3 sided tower at the exact same height, you will never be able to climb over them or at least with great difficulty. I would like to know first hand examples of anyone having issues or had to move them apart to resolve any issues. I don't like doing things twice... you advise is greatly appreciated... Ross _ Galatians 6:7-8: Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. _ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Sector Placement
are they the tranzeo sectors? I have the same setup, 16db HPOL and i have them all at the same level on the tip of a Rohn SSV self supporter. Since they stand off a little from the tower i can climb through them as long as I am careful where i step. -- Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com - Original Message From: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org To: wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Sector Placement Date: 04/23/08 11:39 Anyone know for a fact if it is worthy to seperate sector antennas on the same tower. Using 2.4 H Pol 16 db We are readying our 31st tower location and I have been asked why do we seperate the sectors . Besides the reasonable fact that if you place 3 sectors on a 3 sided tower at the exact same height, you will never be able to climb over them or at least with great difficulty. I would like to know first hand examples of anyone having issues or had to move them apart to resolve any issues. I don't like doing things twice... you advise is greatly appreciated... Ross _ Galatians 6:7-8: quot;Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.quot; _ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Sector Placement
How long have you done this and have you had any issues with anything at all... All Documentation tells us to seperate them 10 or so due to the front to back ratio? Ross _ Galatians 6:7-8: Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. _ - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sector Placement are they the tranzeo sectors? I have the same setup, 16db HPOL and i have them all at the same level on the tip of a Rohn SSV self supporter. Since they stand off a little from the tower i can climb through them as long as I am careful where i step. -- Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com - Original Message From: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org To: wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Sector Placement Date: 04/23/08 11:39 Anyone know for a fact if it is worthy to seperate sector antennas on the same tower. Using 2.4 H Pol 16 db We are readying our 31st tower location and I have been asked why do we seperate the sectors . Besides the reasonable fact that if you place 3 sectors on a 3 sided tower at the exact same height, you will never be able to climb over them or at least with great difficulty. I would like to know first hand examples of anyone having issues or had to move them apart to resolve any issues. I don't like doing things twice... you advise is greatly appreciated... Ross _ Galatians 6:7-8: quot;Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.quot; _ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Sector Placement
Separation is always a good thing. The lower the frequency, the more separation needed. With our 900mhz AP's, we do at least 10 feet of vertical and 5 feet of horizontal. Travis Microserv Ross Cornett wrote: How long have you done this and have you had any issues with anything at all... All Documentation tells us to seperate them 10 or so due to the front to back ratio? Ross _ Galatians 6:7-8: "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." _ - Original Message - From: "Kurt Fankhauser" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 10:45 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sector Placement are they the tranzeo sectors? I have the same setup, 16db HPOL and i have them all at the same level on the tip of a Rohn SSV self supporter. Since they stand off a little from the tower i can climb through them as long as I am careful where i step. -- Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com - Original Message From: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org To: wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org Subject: [WISPA] Sector Placement Date: 04/23/08 11:39 Anyone know for a fact if it is worthy to seperate sector antennas on the same tower. Using 2.4 H Pol 16 db We are readying our 31st tower location and I have been asked why do we seperate the sectors . Besides the reasonable fact that if you place 3 sectors on a 3 sided tower at the exact same height, you will never be able to climb over them or at least with great difficulty. I would like to know first hand examples of anyone having issues or had to move them apart to resolve any issues. I don't like doing things twice... you advise is greatly appreciated... Ross _ Galatians 6:7-8: quot;Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.quot; _ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Sector Placement
Ross, In general, physically separate them as much as possible. You do not want the transmitter signal from one sector to overload the receivers of the other sectors. That is a form of self-interference. If you happen to have a copy of my book handy, you can read more about antenna separation on pages 159 - 165. If you don't have the book, then separate 10 feet vertical as a rule of thumb. Other factors such as the amount of frequency separation and receiver selectivity also play a part but that's more engineering detail than I can address here. But now you know why you should physically separate your antennas. Many people in the past have had to move antennas apart to resolve this issue after they initially installed them to close. jack Ross Cornett wrote: Anyone know for a fact if it is worthy to seperate sector antennas on the same tower. Using 2.4 H Pol 16 db We are readying our 31st tower location and I have been asked why do we seperate the sectors . Besides the reasonable fact that if you place 3 sectors on a 3 sided tower at the exact same height, you will never be able to climb over them or at least with great difficulty. I would like to know first hand examples of anyone having issues or had to move them apart to resolve any issues. I don't like doing things twice... you advise is greatly appreciated... Ross _ Galatians 6:7-8: Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. _ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the Cisco Press Book - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Vendor-Neutral Wireless Training-Design-Troubleshooting-Consulting FCC License # PG-12-25133 Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Future
comments inline. On Apr 22, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: Anyone doing a 20 MHz channel? Not to my knowedge. Would that be enough capacity to allow for typical oversubscription on say a 10 meg client? Certainly. What does it cost to get the first AP up ($5k, $15k, $50k)? Between 5-10k What does it cost to get additional APs up ($2k, $10k, $30k)? Between 5-10k -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jeff Booher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Chuck, Airspan / Aperto are both shipping 5x Ghz wimax products. Throughput is about 26mb peak for the Airspan product on 10mhz channels, and 22mb on the Aperto product in 7mhz channels. Also, there are ways to get around the exclusion zones, if you find out who the licenseholders are. - Jeff On Apr 21, 2008, at 1:20 PM, CHUCK PROFITO wrote: Patrick, Excellent point on channel sizes! So if WiMAX is released in unlicensed frequencies of 900, 2.4? , 5.X, 3.6 (we are in a big exclusion zone.) I imagine if you deployed in 2.4 it would smoke the home routers. Would our capacity double for the same channel sizes? Would it use the same channel sizes? Would it help with range and capacity? Will WiMax help tree penetration? Can Physics be bent? In legacy deployments, would or could it improve our back hauls? Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:01 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Patrick, If not 70 miles and 30 mbps, what are the real numbers on the fixed, for say: 2 miles los? 2 miles wooded? 5 m los? 5 m nlos? 10 m los? 10 m nlos ?? Is this a fair question? Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 9:14 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future The press has been wrong most of time, causing companies like ours great headaches. The stupid 70 miles 30 mbps was the most absurd bit of hyperbole that the press picked up and repeated endlessly. Meanwhile, Mo Shakouri (the Marketing VP of the WiMAX Forum and an Alvarion exec) was trying to dispel that at every turn (I sat in on many of his public sessions). Others of us also were trying to correct the expectations. I did it in numerous analyst and press interviews. WiMAX is also doing well overseas, especially in Asia. WiMAX's greatest near term challenge in the U.S. is Sprint. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 8:57 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future WiMax as hyped by the press is dead. No? - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future I agree with the vast majority of what Chuck says here and only partially disagree even on the WiMAX part (though I disagree strongly on the WiMAX is dead part -- we have sold over $100M to date of it). The main takeaway with Chuck's post is that WISPs will have strong opportunities for a long time to come, and I agree 110%. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 2 Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 9:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future WiMAX was dead, is dead and will remain dead. OK, not factually true but emotionally true. The cell companies will use WiMax frequencies and technologies but they will be a premium service and not well suited to compete with us for point to multi point fixed wireless. It will never live up to the hype. All the cell data technologies will remain premium for folks on the go. Cell does not want to squander the bandwidth to go after the value driven customer that love us so much. Cell is and will not be value leader for fixed wireless. technologies. 700 MHz is just not going to be used for anything other than more cell spectrum. The bands are narrow. Good for phone and limited amounts of data. Great propagation. Problem with 700 MHz is that the size of the antenna will be problematic for really small cell phones. Less gain than the current 900 and 1800 antennas for the same physical sizes. Also there will be a few years of implementation due to moving some existing TV
Re: [WISPA] Sector Placement
Related question - I've noticed that many multi-sector cell towers have what looks like a single vertical bar located midway between adjacent sectors. I assume this is some sort of passive tuned element that's been set up to reduce inter-antenna coupling and interference, but I have been unable to find any info on how to design or install these. Anybody out here know? Thanks! Tom S. - Original Message - From: Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sector Placement Ross, In general, physically separate them as much as possible. You do not want the transmitter signal from one sector to overload the receivers of the other sectors. That is a form of self-interference. If you happen to have a copy of my book handy, you can read more about antenna separation on pages 159 - 165. If you don't have the book, then separate 10 feet vertical as a rule of thumb. Other factors such as the amount of frequency separation and receiver selectivity also play a part but that's more engineering detail than I can address here. But now you know why you should physically separate your antennas. Many people in the past have had to move antennas apart to resolve this issue after they initially installed them to close. jack Ross Cornett wrote: Anyone know for a fact if it is worthy to seperate sector antennas on the same tower. Using 2.4 H Pol 16 db We are readying our 31st tower location and I have been asked why do we seperate the sectors . Besides the reasonable fact that if you place 3 sectors on a 3 sided tower at the exact same height, you will never be able to climb over them or at least with great difficulty. I would like to know first hand examples of anyone having issues or had to move them apart to resolve any issues. I don't like doing things twice... you advise is greatly appreciated... Ross _ Galatians 6:7-8: Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. _ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the Cisco Press Book - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Vendor-Neutral Wireless Training-Design-Troubleshooting-Consulting FCC License # PG-12-25133 Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Future - a brief explanation on diversity
Would I be correct, then, that the Alvarion solutions are the Mercedes of the WiMax world? I know I've asked you before, but is 5 GHz on Alvarion's timeline for 802.16 based devices? -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future - a brief explanation on diversity So what does all the below mean in practice? Well, a typical arrangement, at least for our customers, in the 2.5 GHz band is 3 sectors of 4th order diversity. That means one chassis with 3 blades. Each of the blades has 4 ports. All 4 ports are used. That translates into three AU IDUs and 12 ODUs and 6 antennas dual pole antennas that comprise the 3 sectors. Now you may be getting a sense of the complexity and why the question of How much for one AP to one sector? is not really applicable since one 4-port AU can feed a complete cell with 4 90 degree sectors, but that same AU can scale to feed all its channels and capacity into a single sector. With each added level of diversity, the translation is better link budgets (less cells) with increased capacity. Fourth order diversity over no diversity adds 12 dB up and 6 dB down in terms of improved link budgets. This is not generally used to increase range so much as it is to increase link reliability at range. Our expectation is that our 3.65 GHz deployments will mostly have a standard configuration of 3 sectors with 2nd order diversity, except in a high urban deployment (such as a Tower Stream type model), which is more likely to have 4th order diversity to improve the range and number of self-install CPE that can be deployed. Patrick Leary AVP, Market Development Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future - a brief explanation on diversity Mike, et al, As Jeff implied about coverage (and costs), with WiMAX it is all about diversity so let me try to explain it a bit. It is not so simple as one AP or two. In WiMAX you have IDUs and ODUs. In our case, one IDU can serve many different configurations since it have 4 ports on the IDU and supports up to 4th order diversity. So here is what each level of diversity actually looks like in terms of configuration: Single channel, no diversity - This is the basic configuration and the one WISPs have always deployed. Each AU-IDU connects to one ODU serving a single sector with a directional antenna. AU/IDU ODUSector + + + + + --+ O +---+ + + O ---/ + + \---+ O + + O + + O + + + + O + + + + + O + + + + + Multiple channels per AU, no diversity - Can be like above or two or three or four channels. Example shows four channels - AU/IDU ODU 1 Sector antenna 1 Ch.1-4 + + + + + --+ O +---+ + + O ---/ + + \---+ O + + O +-\ + O + + + + O +-\\ + + + + O +-\\\ + + + \\\--ODU 2sector antenna 2 + \\ \\--ODU 3sector antenna 3 \ \--ODU 4sector antenna 4 Second order diversity - One sector with space diversity. Two AU-ODU channels 1 2. Same frequency and transmit power. Same AU-IDU share a common MAC and modem. AU/IDU ODU 1 Antenna 1 Ch.12Sector 1 + + + + + --- O + + + O ---/ + + \ O + + O --\ + O + + + + O + \ + + + + O + \ + + +\ both sectors cover same area + \ )) so both function as part of one sector \ ODU 2 Antenna 2 \Sector 1 \+ + - O + + + + \ O + + O + + + + + + + Fourth order diversity - Single sector. Single AU-IDU with 4 ODUs. Space and polarization diversities using dual polarization slant antennas. Channels 1 and 2 form one pair, channels 3 and 4 form one pair. Same frequency and transmit power are set for all four ODUs. Common MAC and modem. AU/IDU ODU 1Antenna 1 Ch.1-4Sector 1 (dual pole) + + + + + --- O + + + O ---/ + + \-- O + + O --\ + O + /--- O + + O --\\ + / + + + O --\\\ /+ both dual pole antennas + + \\\--ODU 2/Sector 2 Antenna 2) function together in a + \\
Re: [WISPA] Future
Who have you been getting information\pricing from on the Aperto and Airspan products? -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jeff Booher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future comments inline. On Apr 22, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: Anyone doing a 20 MHz channel? Not to my knowedge. Would that be enough capacity to allow for typical oversubscription on say a 10 meg client? Certainly. What does it cost to get the first AP up ($5k, $15k, $50k)? Between 5-10k What does it cost to get additional APs up ($2k, $10k, $30k)? Between 5-10k -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jeff Booher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Chuck, Airspan / Aperto are both shipping 5x Ghz wimax products. Throughput is about 26mb peak for the Airspan product on 10mhz channels, and 22mb on the Aperto product in 7mhz channels. Also, there are ways to get around the exclusion zones, if you find out who the licenseholders are. - Jeff On Apr 21, 2008, at 1:20 PM, CHUCK PROFITO wrote: Patrick, Excellent point on channel sizes! So if WiMAX is released in unlicensed frequencies of 900, 2.4? , 5.X, 3.6 (we are in a big exclusion zone.) I imagine if you deployed in 2.4 it would smoke the home routers. Would our capacity double for the same channel sizes? Would it use the same channel sizes? Would it help with range and capacity? Will WiMax help tree penetration? Can Physics be bent? In legacy deployments, would or could it improve our back hauls? Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:01 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Patrick, If not 70 miles and 30 mbps, what are the real numbers on the fixed, for say: 2 miles los? 2 miles wooded? 5 m los? 5 m nlos? 10 m los? 10 m nlos ?? Is this a fair question? Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 9:14 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future The press has been wrong most of time, causing companies like ours great headaches. The stupid 70 miles 30 mbps was the most absurd bit of hyperbole that the press picked up and repeated endlessly. Meanwhile, Mo Shakouri (the Marketing VP of the WiMAX Forum and an Alvarion exec) was trying to dispel that at every turn (I sat in on many of his public sessions). Others of us also were trying to correct the expectations. I did it in numerous analyst and press interviews. WiMAX is also doing well overseas, especially in Asia. WiMAX's greatest near term challenge in the U.S. is Sprint. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 8:57 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future WiMax as hyped by the press is dead. No? - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future I agree with the vast majority of what Chuck says here and only partially disagree even on the WiMAX part (though I disagree strongly on the WiMAX is dead part -- we have sold over $100M to date of it). The main takeaway with Chuck's post is that WISPs will have strong opportunities for a long time to come, and I agree 110%. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 2 Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 9:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future WiMAX was dead, is dead and will remain dead. OK, not factually true but emotionally true. The cell companies will use WiMax frequencies and technologies but they will be a premium service and not well suited to compete with us for point to multi point fixed wireless. It will never live up to the hype. All the cell data technologies will remain premium for folks on the go. Cell does not want to squander the bandwidth to go after the value driven customer that love us so much. Cell is and will not be value leader for fixed wireless. technologies. 700 MHz is just not going to be used for anything other than more cell spectrum. The bands are narrow. Good for
Re: [WISPA] Future
Who have you been getting information\pricing from on the Aperto and Airspan products? -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jeff Booher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future comments inline. On Apr 22, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: Anyone doing a 20 MHz channel? Not to my knowedge. Would that be enough capacity to allow for typical oversubscription on say a 10 meg client? Certainly. What does it cost to get the first AP up ($5k, $15k, $50k)? Between 5-10k What does it cost to get additional APs up ($2k, $10k, $30k)? Between 5-10k -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jeff Booher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Chuck, Airspan / Aperto are both shipping 5x Ghz wimax products. Throughput is about 26mb peak for the Airspan product on 10mhz channels, and 22mb on the Aperto product in 7mhz channels. Also, there are ways to get around the exclusion zones, if you find out who the licenseholders are. - Jeff On Apr 21, 2008, at 1:20 PM, CHUCK PROFITO wrote: Patrick, Excellent point on channel sizes! So if WiMAX is released in unlicensed frequencies of 900, 2.4? , 5.X, 3.6 (we are in a big exclusion zone.) I imagine if you deployed in 2.4 it would smoke the home routers. Would our capacity double for the same channel sizes? Would it use the same channel sizes? Would it help with range and capacity? Will WiMax help tree penetration? Can Physics be bent? In legacy deployments, would or could it improve our back hauls? Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 10:01 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Patrick, If not 70 miles and 30 mbps, what are the real numbers on the fixed, for say: 2 miles los? 2 miles wooded? 5 m los? 5 m nlos? 10 m los? 10 m nlos ?? Is this a fair question? Chuck Profito 209-988-7388 CV-ACCESS, INC [EMAIL PROTECTED] Providing High Speed Broadband to Rural Central California -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 9:14 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future The press has been wrong most of time, causing companies like ours great headaches. The stupid 70 miles 30 mbps was the most absurd bit of hyperbole that the press picked up and repeated endlessly. Meanwhile, Mo Shakouri (the Marketing VP of the WiMAX Forum and an Alvarion exec) was trying to dispel that at every turn (I sat in on many of his public sessions). Others of us also were trying to correct the expectations. I did it in numerous analyst and press interviews. WiMAX is also doing well overseas, especially in Asia. WiMAX's greatest near term challenge in the U.S. is Sprint. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 8:57 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future WiMax as hyped by the press is dead. No? - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future I agree with the vast majority of what Chuck says here and only partially disagree even on the WiMAX part (though I disagree strongly on the WiMAX is dead part -- we have sold over $100M to date of it). The main takeaway with Chuck's post is that WISPs will have strong opportunities for a long time to come, and I agree 110%. Patrick -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 2 Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 9:26 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future WiMAX was dead, is dead and will remain dead. OK, not factually true but emotionally true. The cell companies will use WiMax frequencies and technologies but they will be a premium service and not well suited to compete with us for point to multi point fixed wireless. It will never live up to the hype. All the cell data technologies will remain premium for folks on the go. Cell does not want to squander the bandwidth to go after the value driven customer that love us so much. Cell is and will not be value leader for fixed wireless. technologies. 700 MHz is just not going to be used for anything other than more cell spectrum. The bands are narrow. Good for
Re: [WISPA] Future
Travis, Just a few notes on the economics of this (and, why I think single play providers are in trouble): The ARPU for triple play is generally considerably above $100 per month, most figures put this around $160 per month on an industry basis. Typically, churn is considerably lower as well for triple play customers. A triple play customer generating $160 per month returns almost $20,000 in 10 years. But, given that triple play leverages the same network, you have 3-4 times the revenue to subsidize a common network buildout. That is hard to compete with. Yes, you do have churn and significantly less than 100% penetration--people go to other offerings. But, the economic viability is still very solid. -Clint Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 10:34 AM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A couple quick things: (1) You don't necessarily have them for life. People can change to DISH and a wireless provider and do VoIP over that. Especially if they can save $5/month, a lot of people will change. DISH is $35/month for decent programming. Wireless is another $40/month and VoIP can be had for $20/month. (2) It looks good with those numbers, but realistically you have costs way above just the install. On a $100/month customer how much gross profit do you actually make after buying bandwidth, transport, TV channels, VoIP service, etc. I really have no idea, so I am asking. Do you make $20 gross? $1,500 / $20 = 75 months breakeven and this doesn't include support costs, etc. Travis Microserv Chuck McCown wrote: FTTH ONT pricing (the unit on the house) keeps falling. They are about $400 now. You can put in fiber for $1-2/foot (if you have a clear ROW). The CO end is about $50K/terminal that is capable of serving thousands. I don't know what the pro-rata single fiber COT card is, but I think they are are around $2K/port with each port serving 32 on a PON. So, if the plowing is good and the ROWs are clear and free, you can probably get a customer installed (in a fairly dense surburban area) for less than $1500 each. Triple play for $100/month. And you have them for life. Of course this assumes you build it yourself and you already have a NOC and you already have access to and IPTV stream etc. But it is doable. There is a business case for building such a system. Main thing is to do it before the ILEC/RBOC does it. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Well Mike, the way I see it is that the sky has been falling my entire time as an ISP (over a decade now). WiMax is still a joke in the market place. 3G is too slow and too expensive. 700 is not deployed in any level that matters and doesn't look like it will be any time soon. Cable is in trouble because they are dying under the load of the high end users they they keep getting. They need all of the capacity they can come up with for HDTV channels but broadband is taking up too much space on the coax. They also JUST put in their networks. The big companies aren't structured to reinvest in new hardware every few years. I'd say that they will continue to grow and continue to piss off their base. I'm not worried about cable. As for ATT and Verizon? People already hate the service and prices they have, so far I can sell against them. Fiber is cool, I have FTTH customers. But man is it expensive! There's just no way to ever make the investment back at today's pricing levels. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2008 5:44 PM Subject: [WISPA] Future What do you see as the future of our industry over the next 5 years? ATT is expanding U-Verse (will this be available outside of town?) Verizon is expanding FiOS (will this be available outside of town?) Cable will be using DOCSIS 3 3G will gain more steam WiMAX will have larger and larger shares of the market 700 MHz will be in use possibly for data communications by the big guys My banker asked me, so I figured I'd see what other's opinions are. My thought is that the big guys mentioned above will continue to avoid the niche that we currently serve and we'll be able to provide better services with more spectrum (5.4 GHz, additional 2.5 GHz, 3.6 GHz, possibly TV white spaces) and WiMAX. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Future - a brief explanation on diversity
How much does second order improve over none? Cost differences between none, second, and fourth? -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:25 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future - a brief explanation on diversity So what does all the below mean in practice? Well, a typical arrangement, at least for our customers, in the 2.5 GHz band is 3 sectors of 4th order diversity. That means one chassis with 3 blades. Each of the blades has 4 ports. All 4 ports are used. That translates into three AU IDUs and 12 ODUs and 6 antennas dual pole antennas that comprise the 3 sectors. Now you may be getting a sense of the complexity and why the question of How much for one AP to one sector? is not really applicable since one 4-port AU can feed a complete cell with 4 90 degree sectors, but that same AU can scale to feed all its channels and capacity into a single sector. With each added level of diversity, the translation is better link budgets (less cells) with increased capacity. Fourth order diversity over no diversity adds 12 dB up and 6 dB down in terms of improved link budgets. This is not generally used to increase range so much as it is to increase link reliability at range. Our expectation is that our 3.65 GHz deployments will mostly have a standard configuration of 3 sectors with 2nd order diversity, except in a high urban deployment (such as a Tower Stream type model), which is more likely to have 4th order diversity to improve the range and number of self-install CPE that can be deployed. Patrick Leary AVP, Market Development Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 3:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future - a brief explanation on diversity Mike, et al, As Jeff implied about coverage (and costs), with WiMAX it is all about diversity so let me try to explain it a bit. It is not so simple as one AP or two. In WiMAX you have IDUs and ODUs. In our case, one IDU can serve many different configurations since it have 4 ports on the IDU and supports up to 4th order diversity. So here is what each level of diversity actually looks like in terms of configuration: Single channel, no diversity - This is the basic configuration and the one WISPs have always deployed. Each AU-IDU connects to one ODU serving a single sector with a directional antenna. AU/IDU ODUSector + + + + + --+ O +---+ + + O ---/ + + \---+ O + + O + + O + + + + O + + + + + O + + + + + Multiple channels per AU, no diversity - Can be like above or two or three or four channels. Example shows four channels - AU/IDU ODU 1 Sector antenna 1 Ch.1-4 + + + + + --+ O +---+ + + O ---/ + + \---+ O + + O +-\ + O + + + + O +-\\ + + + + O +-\\\ + + + \\\--ODU 2sector antenna 2 + \\ \\--ODU 3sector antenna 3 \ \--ODU 4sector antenna 4 Second order diversity - One sector with space diversity. Two AU-ODU channels 1 2. Same frequency and transmit power. Same AU-IDU share a common MAC and modem. AU/IDU ODU 1 Antenna 1 Ch.12Sector 1 + + + + + --- O + + + O ---/ + + \ O + + O --\ + O + + + + O + \ + + + + O + \ + + +\ both sectors cover same area + \ )) so both function as part of one sector \ ODU 2 Antenna 2 \Sector 1 \+ + - O + + + + \ O + + O + + + + + + + Fourth order diversity - Single sector. Single AU-IDU with 4 ODUs. Space and polarization diversities using dual polarization slant antennas. Channels 1 and 2 form one pair, channels 3 and 4 form one pair. Same frequency and transmit power are set for all four ODUs. Common MAC and modem. AU/IDU ODU 1Antenna 1 Ch.1-4Sector 1 (dual pole) + + + + + --- O + + + O ---/ + + \-- O + + O --\ + O + /--- O + + O --\\ + / + + + O --\\\ /+ both dual pole antennas + + \\\--ODU 2/Sector 2 Antenna 2) function together in a + \\ (dual pole) single sector \\--ODU 3/Sector 1---\ + \
Re: [WISPA] Sector Placement
Well this is what I've been doing. For the last couple years I have had multiple secorized sites with antennas mounted at the same vertical level with only 1 foot of horizontal separation and using channels 1,4,7 on 802.11b I am able to get 4mbps to the clients and I am experiencing no problems whatsoever. AP's are a mix of WAR4's and Mikrotik's all running Atheros. Towers all have 50+ clients connected. One thing I have noticed with Horizontal sectors is that channel 10 and 11 have poor signal levels no matter what the manufacturer of the antenna but on an omni its fine. I think this must be something related to the 120 degree horizontal sector design. That's why I use 1,4,7 or sometimes 1,5,9 Kurt Fankhauser WAVELINC P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 419-562-6405 www.wavelinc.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:53 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sector Placement Ross, In general, physically separate them as much as possible. You do not want the transmitter signal from one sector to overload the receivers of the other sectors. That is a form of self-interference. If you happen to have a copy of my book handy, you can read more about antenna separation on pages 159 - 165. If you don't have the book, then separate 10 feet vertical as a rule of thumb. Other factors such as the amount of frequency separation and receiver selectivity also play a part but that's more engineering detail than I can address here. But now you know why you should physically separate your antennas. Many people in the past have had to move antennas apart to resolve this issue after they initially installed them to close. jack Ross Cornett wrote: Anyone know for a fact if it is worthy to seperate sector antennas on the same tower. Using 2.4 H Pol 16 db We are readying our 31st tower location and I have been asked why do we seperate the sectors . Besides the reasonable fact that if you place 3 sectors on a 3 sided tower at the exact same height, you will never be able to climb over them or at least with great difficulty. I would like to know first hand examples of anyone having issues or had to move them apart to resolve any issues. I don't like doing things twice... you advise is greatly appreciated... Ross _ Galatians 6:7-8: Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. _ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the Cisco Press Book - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Vendor-Neutral Wireless Training-Design-Troubleshooting-Consulting FCC License # PG-12-25133 Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Future
That's an interesting point to discuss. WiMax profiles AFAIK go up to 64QAM So does WiFi 802.11a, g, n Orthogon AFAIK goes to higher order modulation, but are for P2P links where SNR is (or can be) higher - at least with high gain antennas. AFAIK No-one seems to be proposing more than 64QAM for P2MP. Fading, variable channel characteristics particularly for non-LOS and of course noise at the RX I am sure are key reasons. Other spectral efficiencies in newer systems are gained with MIMO in it's various permutations. Comments/corrections welcome - Regards Stephen Patrick == Cablefree Solutions Ltd, www.cablefreesolutions.com -Original Message- From: Mike Hammett [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 23 April 2008 20:37 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future From a spectral efficiency standpoint, WiMax is better than anything but Orthogon. I'm not saying to do mobile stuff, but for PtMP fixed wireless that we do now. More spectral efficiency is always better for the industry. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Mike, My personal opinion is... in 5Ghz, Wimax is not the ideal solution. In 5.3-4 G, the allowable power is not high enough. In 5.8G, there is to much noise, from traditional legacy gear. We proved that in our trials 4 years ago, beta testing Aperto, pre-Wimax. It wasn't affordable to deploy a small channel and waste polarity with diversity, based on tower colo costs. In DC for example, we were lucky to get 1.5mbps total throughout, on a 6Mhz channel capable of 16-20mbps in the lab. Diversity helps get around NLOS, but it also prevents muting out interference on the non-needed polarity. In DC, only Spatial diversity was viable, because Spatial diversity does not pickup out of polarity noise. But we found, polarity diversity is really what best helped get around NLOS. Many of the WiMax vendors are working towards 5.8Ghz platforms, but personally, I think these are really only ideal for deployments to new underserved areas. Its a different stroy in areas of low noise or low cost to colocate, where mobile/NLOS is the goal and not high capacity. Many will disagree with me, but that is my opinion. I personally think, Alvarions existing unlicensed VL or Newer less expensive line products are more preferred than their Wimax in the 5.8 band. In 3.6, I think WiMax is needy for the advanced WiMax feature. Because it is virgin spectrum still. But it will be interesting to see how it all plays out, as more providers all try and use it in one area. My experience is of course based on old gear. The questions that I ask is whether the newer more advanced WiMax level gear has also added any new noise cancellation techniques to combine with diversity, so that diversity can be used more often, without a negative effect if noise exists on the other pol? The maximum benefit in gain was gained via receive diversity. A beam turning 90 deg out of pol could degrade over 20db, where as pol diverse signal transmitted only adds a db or so, only because the gain is contracdicted by the loss associated with splitting the signal. Transmit diversity does however, have other benefits, as we know with Mimo style designs, and beam steering technologies. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Who have you been getting information\pricing from on the Aperto and Airspan products? -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jeff Booher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:16 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future comments inline. On Apr 22, 2008, at 12:17 PM, Mike Hammett wrote: Anyone doing a 20 MHz channel? Not to my knowedge. Would that be enough capacity to allow for typical oversubscription on say a 10 meg client? Certainly. What does it cost to get the first AP up ($5k, $15k, $50k)? Between 5-10k What does it cost to get additional APs up ($2k, $10k, $30k)? Between 5-10k -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jeff Booher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Future Chuck, Airspan / Aperto are both shipping 5x Ghz wimax products. Throughput is about 26mb peak for the Airspan product on 10mhz channels, and 22mb on the Aperto product in 7mhz
Re: [WISPA] Sector Placement
Tom, What you are probably seeing is the GPS sync antenna if it's on a cell phone tower. That is what enables them to reuse the same spectrum on all their towers. Mac -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Sharples Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 11:48 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sector Placement Related question - I've noticed that many multi-sector cell towers have what looks like a single vertical bar located midway between adjacent sectors. I assume this is some sort of passive tuned element that's been set up to reduce inter-antenna coupling and interference, but I have been unable to find any info on how to design or install these. Anybody out here know? Thanks! Tom S. - Original Message - From: Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Sector Placement Ross, In general, physically separate them as much as possible. You do not want the transmitter signal from one sector to overload the receivers of the other sectors. That is a form of self-interference. If you happen to have a copy of my book handy, you can read more about antenna separation on pages 159 - 165. If you don't have the book, then separate 10 feet vertical as a rule of thumb. Other factors such as the amount of frequency separation and receiver selectivity also play a part but that's more engineering detail than I can address here. But now you know why you should physically separate your antennas. Many people in the past have had to move antennas apart to resolve this issue after they initially installed them to close. jack Ross Cornett wrote: Anyone know for a fact if it is worthy to seperate sector antennas on the same tower. Using 2.4 H Pol 16 db We are readying our 31st tower location and I have been asked why do we seperate the sectors . Besides the reasonable fact that if you place 3 sectors on a 3 sided tower at the exact same height, you will never be able to climb over them or at least with great difficulty. I would like to know first hand examples of anyone having issues or had to move them apart to resolve any issues. I don't like doing things twice... you advise is greatly appreciated... Ross ___ __ Galatians 6:7-8: Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. ___ __ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the Cisco Press Book - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Vendor-Neutral Wireless Training-Design-Troubleshooting-Consulting FCC License # PG-12-25133 Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] - --- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ - --- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- - WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ --- - WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
