RE: [WSG] Which editors do you guys recommend?

[Kym Kovan]

Hi Mike,

You just saved me a heap of typing :-)

Its "Ditto" to for me, plus a bit:

ULtraEdit has to be one of the best text editors about

DreamWeaver when doing designy type stuff

HomeSite+ for pounding out code (my main task in life )

TopStyle for the CSS

And responding to Dante's comment, both Dreamweaver and Homesite have the 
tag-completion you mentioned, and don't like, as well as the tag attribute hint 
functions that Mike mentioned and in both cases you can turn it off :-)


--

Yours,

Kym 

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Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[Tony Crockford]

At 05:07 on Sunday, 06 Jun 2004, helmut wrote:
What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing?

Topstyle Pro 3.1 is my choice.  Simply the best windows application for  
handcoding html / CSS  includes most language syntax coloring and mapping  
for local live previews via a local server.  Support is fantastic, Nick  
haunts the support bulletin boards and is building version 4 from user  
feedback and feature requests.

Site management makes a lot of stuff quick and easy, The clip library  
means I can store all my frequently used code, by project/project type. My  
only criticism is that the bradsoft web site doesn't make enough noise  
about all the features of the application - you have to download and play  
to discover them and there are many hidden greats.

(integrated accessibility checks, style "sweeping", style export to given  
standard or browser (for sheet separation), replacement tokens for fully  
customised snippet insertion etc.)

It's great.  I love it.  I'll even split my affiliate commission with you:
Topstyle Pro 3.10
http://www.regnow.com/softsell/nph-softsell.cgi?item=6598-4&affiliate=16516
Upgrade:
http://www.regnow.com/softsell/nph-softsell.cgi?item=6598-5&affiliate=16516
coupon code:
BOLD-CCN4
;o)
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RE: [WSG] Which editors do you guys recommend?

[Michael Kear]

Title: [WSG] Which editors do you guys recommend? 








For those that use notepad and type
everything in by hand,  there’s a far better answer for you –
Ultraedit (ultraedit.com).  It is a simple text editor, but it has syntax
highlighting,  can handle files as big as your whole hard drive,  can edit
hex,   you can cut and paste in columns as well as blocks of text.  You can
search and replace over whole groups of files as well as folders.   You can
search and replace on text or on hex as well, so for example you could replace
all the carriage returns or tabs with something else.  I never use notepad for
anything any more.    And it has a FTP function so you can upload your files
directly from ultraedit.   It’s ultraedit for me.

 

But for my normal use, I use dreamweaver
MX2004 usually in code view.  It has tag completion and hints, so it’ll
tell me what the attributes are for any tag as I start to type it, it’ll
correct syntax errors if I want it to, and a click on the up arrow and the file
I’m editing is loaded onto the site.  I don't have to keep remembering
the passwords, addresses etc of all the sites I’m working on.

 

And for CSS editing, I use topstyle.  There
might be better ones, but I started using it a few years ago and never saw the
need to switch away. 

 

 

Cheers

Mike Kear

Windsor, NSW, Australia

AFP Webworks

http://afpwebworks.com



 

 











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean M. Hall AKA Dante
Sent: Sunday, 6 June 2004 3:54 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] Which editors do
you guys recommend?



 

I've been searching for a good editor (don't say BBEdit)
that has syntax highlighting and will not insert stuff (like if I type '(' in a
script tag the editor will insert a ')' right after it, I don't like that). 

Until then it's note pad for me. 

[WSG] Which editors do you guys recommend?

[Sean M. Hall AKA Dante]

Title: [WSG] Which editors do you guys recommend? 
I've been searching for a good editor (don't say BBEdit) that has syntax highlighting and will not insert stuff (like if I type '(' in a script tag the editor will insert a ')' right after it, I don't like that). 
 
Until then it's note pad for me. 

RE: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[Jeff Lowder - Accessibility 1st]

On Windows I use Homesite+ or XML SPY for HTML stuff & Topstyle Pro for
CSS stuff (great combination), sometimes I use HTML-Kit as well (free-be
product)

I also use BBEdit on Mac

Cheers 

Jeff Lowder
Accessibility 1st
Website: www.accessibility1st.com.au
Blog: www.accessibility1st.com.au/journal/ 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of helmut
Sent: Sunday, 6 June 2004 2:07 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing?




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RE:[WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[Sean M. Hall AKA Dante]

Title: RE:[WSG] What Editors do you guys use? 
I use Notepad. I like to KISS (Keep it Simple Stupid). 

Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[Andrew Sione Taumoefolau]

On Sat, 2004-06-05 at 23:07 -0500, helmut wrote:
> What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing?

I use pen and paper to figure out how a document should be structured
and to note elementary markup and styling, and Vim to produce the real
thing.

Cheers,

Andrew Taumoefolau

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Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[Cristhian Palma]

helmut wrote:
What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing?
Under Windows, i'm currently using HTML-Kit, nice editor with standards 
support.

--
Cristhian Palma
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+593.9.976 1992
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RE: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[Jeremy S. @ WSG]

I use the code view in Dreamweaver MX 2004, and I do a lot of hand coding
still. I also have used TopStyle from time to time, great little utility. =)

Jeremy S.
www.jezzjournal.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of helmut
Sent: June 5, 2004 11:07 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing?




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RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[Bert Doorn]

Hi Nick

I don't know how my site looks on a Mac (I don't have one and am not going
to waste my money on one), but it's to be expected.

But as my PS said, I am changing the site.  Can't be bothered to do to much
to it at the moment as I don't need extra work and it works for the vast
majority anyway.  

It's one of those cases where I have used features that work in the
mainstream browser on the mainstream platform, but which are seemingly
impossible to implement on other browsers.  I have another site that's more
up to date. www.bwdzine.net - nothing fancy there, just plain boring CSS
divs (seems the server is down however).  That one probably doesn't work in
Mac IE either.

Regards
-- 
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
www.betterwebdesign.com.au
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Gleitzman
Sent: Sunday, 6 June 2004 12:26 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions


Thanks, Bert - that's a different and very useful take on the problem.

Er - Notwithstanding your PS, do you know how unwell your site is in 
Mac browsers? IE5 particularly - the only  thing that shows up is the 
bgrd image (red at left). I think it's the height:100% that's doing 
it...

If you want, I can send you some screenshots direct; I have a range of 
IE versions on both OS9 and OSX, and Safari 1 for OSX. Maybe some 
others might like to contribute sshots from other browsers?

Nick

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Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[Cameron Muir]

Crimson Editor on Windows and Kate on SuSE. They're both free and both 
have syntax highlighting (although Kate doesn't highlight much in CSS mode).

helmut wrote:
What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing?

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Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[Leslie Riggs]

<>Visicom Media's AceHTML Pro.  Version 5.09.1 is the latest live
version; version 6.01.1 is a pre-release version with some added
features but isn't the final version yet.  I have both, I'm happy with
both, looking forward to the final version 6 release.

Right now you can buy version 5 and you'll get a free upgrade to
version 6.

http://www.visicommedia.com

Leslie Riggs

| What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and
testing?



  

Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[Lea de Groot]

On Sun, 6 Jun 2004 14:26:06 +1000, Lea de Groot wrote:
> Under ISX, ATM, subethaedit - http://www.codingmonkeys.de/subethaedit/

OSX, dammit! OSX!


Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Web Design, Usability, Information Architecture, Search Engine 
Optimisation
Brisbane, Australia
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RE: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[7 sinz]

i still hand code, but i use Dreamweaver MX 2004, mainly because it saves 
half the design process, as i can preview in different browsers to see what 
my site is looking liike. It just makes life a hella alot easier. Im not 
going to come out and say that dreamweaver is everyones solution for 
editior, but for me, espeacially with it's improvements with CSS handling, 
Dreamweaver MX 2004 is my choice for both CSS & HTML editing.

I have tried stylemaster, but i really hated the interface, i'd rather use 
topstyle that stylemaster anyways, i feel that topstyle is a better 
programmed app then stylemaster by far.

so my picks would be Dreamweaver MX 2004 for HTML ( and CSS ) & for a CSS 
editor id use Topstyle.

hope that helps
-peace

From: "John McDougald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 21:19:59 -0700
> What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and
testing?
Notepad :)
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_
SEEK: Now with over 50,000 dream jobs! Click here:  
http://ninemsn.seek.com.au?hotmail

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Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[Nick Gleitzman]

On a Mac: BBEdit, but I'm testing HyperEdit (still in beta) when I've 
got time because it offers real-time side-by-side comparison of code 
and result. Not 100% sure as yet of the rendering side, though...

Nick
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/
On Sunday, June 6, 2004, at 02:07  PM, helmut wrote:
What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and 
testing?
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Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[Neerav]

When I want to hack up something quickly I use Dreamweaver MX 2004 in 
code/design view (actually typing code but using handy time savers like 
insert table 2 rows, 3cols etc), for more detailed work I like using 
Editpad Pro

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 403 8000 27
helmut wrote:
What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing?
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Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[Rick Faaberg]

>> What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and
> testing?

Adobe GoLive.

Rick Faaberg

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Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[Nick Gleitzman]

Thanks, Bert - that's a different and very useful take on the problem.
Er - Notwithstanding your PS, do you know how unwell your site is in 
Mac browsers? IE5 particularly - the only  thing that shows up is the 
bgrd image (red at left). I think it's the height:100% that's doing 
it...

If you want, I can send you some screenshots direct; I have a range of 
IE versions on both OS9 and OSX, and Safari 1 for OSX. Maybe some 
others might like to contribute sshots from other browsers?

Nick
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/
On Sunday, June 6, 2004, at 02:05  PM, Bert Doorn wrote:
G'day
Sorry, I emailed direct rather than to the list.
Here it is:
I stay away from using NESTED tables
I try to use DIVS only (and it's fine in simple layouts)
I use a maximum of one table per page, if it makes life
easier, such as where there is a complex layout, or where I
have something that, with some imagination, could qualify as
"tabular data".
Having said all that, if you can control the height of the
captions, you could use divs or ps with a fixed height.
Have a look at the portfolio page on my site (url in
signature) for an example.
I use paragraphs here, but you could use divs, an unordered
list,   or whatever :-)  The beauty (to me) of this set up is
that at different resolutoins you get a different number of
thumbs across.  For instance, at 800x600 I see 5 across, at
1024x768 there's 7 and at 1280x1024 I get as many as 9 across.
P.S. I know this site isn't perfect.  Am working on it.
Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
www.betterwebdesign.com.au
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Gleitzman
Sent: Sunday, 6 June 2004 11:35 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
Roy - ummm,  did I miss a post? Can you point me to 'Bert's layout'?
Thanks
Nick
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Re: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[Lea de Groot]

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 23:07:25 -0500, helmut wrote:
> What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing?

Under ISX, ATM, subethaedit - http://www.codingmonkeys.de/subethaedit/

HIH
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Web Design, Usability, Information Architecture, Search Engine 
Optimisation
Brisbane, Australia
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RE: [WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[John McDougald]

> What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and
testing?


Notepad :)

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[WSG] What Editors do you guys use?

[helmut]

What CSS/XHTML/HTML editors do you guys use for hand coding and testing?




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RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[Bert Doorn]

G'day

Sorry, I emailed direct rather than to the list.

Here it is:

I stay away from using NESTED tables

I try to use DIVS only (and it's fine in simple layouts)

I use a maximum of one table per page, if it makes life
easier, such as where there is a complex layout, or where I 
have something that, with some imagination, could qualify as 
"tabular data".

Having said all that, if you can control the height of the
captions, you could use divs or ps with a fixed height.  
Have a look at the portfolio page on my site (url in 
signature) for an example.  

I use paragraphs here, but you could use divs, an unordered 
list,   or whatever :-)  The beauty (to me) of this set up is
that at different resolutoins you get a different number of 
thumbs across.  For instance, at 800x600 I see 5 across, at 
1024x768 there's 7 and at 1280x1024 I get as many as 9 across.

P.S. I know this site isn't perfect.  Am working on it.

Regards
-- 
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
www.betterwebdesign.com.au
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Nick Gleitzman
Sent: Sunday, 6 June 2004 11:35 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions


Roy - ummm,  did I miss a post? Can you point me to 'Bert's layout'?

Thanks
Nick

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[WSG] Vertical Son of Suckerfish - Practical implementation

[Neerav]

Vertical Son of Suckerfish - Practical implementation at 
http://www.rci.com.au

What a difference it makes! Implementing Son of Suckerfish cut 30kb off 
the page size by removing the old DHTML menu, and reduced page load and 
render times dramatically

I did have to sacrifice NS4 and IE4 compatibility which the old DHTML 
menu had, but there is a fully functional site map and once I add the 
@import hack to hide the menu from old browsers they wont see the Son of 
Suckerfish menu at all :-)

Net result:
 * 95%+ visitors to the site get improved usability and speed
 * search engines can follow links in Son of Suckerfish menu as its
   basically just a bunch of lists
 * some older/less used browsers will see a wacky menu, but can use the
   site map anyway.
--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 403 8000 27
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Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[Nick Gleitzman]

Roy - ummm,  did I miss a post? Can you point me to 'Bert's layout'?
Thanks
Nick
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http://www.omnivision.com.au/
On Sunday, June 6, 2004, at 01:59  AM, RC Pierce wrote:
Bert's thumbnail layout is really quite straight forward. Wish I'd o' 
thought of using inline
paragraphs as containers when I was having trouble with a thumbnail 
page, myself. The problem of
attaching caption to image, getting it to center with the thumbnail is 
completely overcome using
that simple technique. Beats <.td><.img><.br /><.a>caption<./a><./td> 
(ignore dots) all to heck when
it comes to elasticity and fluidity. Nice one, Bert.
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Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[Nick Gleitzman]

I'm with Mike - that's brilliant. It'll certainly fix my immediate 
needs. Thanks, Kristof!

One question: what's this hack for?
* html #images a {
height: 100px;
he\ight: 95px;
}
OK, I lied. Second question: your solution is very usable; I class this 
as 'elegant' because all the img/caption pairs are contained in one 
(open-ended) list. Just what I was after. But just out of interest, do 
you think it's possible to go one step further, and style the list so 
that the number of images in a row varies as window is resized - still 
keeping the 'grid' centred - for a truly liquid layout?

Nick
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/
On Sunday, June 6, 2004, at 04:02  AM, Kristof Neirynck wrote:
Nick Gleitzman wrote:
I've been trying to emulate, with CSS alone, what I've been doing for 
 years with tables: create a grid of thumbnails, each with a caption  
below, both image and caption linked to an enlargement. We all know 
how  easy that is; center the table, center the cell content 
vertically, add  some cell padding. Bingo.
Any takers?
[snip]
Do you mean something like this?

--
Kristof
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Re: [WSG] Site breaking in Mozilla

[Ward and Andrea Scott]

Kay,

Many thanks for the thoughtful feedback. I knew I was missing something, but
wasn't sure what. And thanks also for the advice on the divs.

Ward

 Original Message - 
> There's a very good reason for that... Because you are using the xml
prolog,
> IE is being forced into "quirks" mode rendering, not standards compliance
mode
> - that is, you're making IE6 behave like IE5, with all of the buggy
rendering.
> A good explanation of that is at:
> http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=RenderingMode
> If there is *anything* at all, even a comment, before the doctype
declaration,
> IE6 will go into quirks mode.
>
> In actual fact, Mozilla is behaving correctly. I'm betting that if you
remove
> the xml prolog, IE will start breaking too.
>
> The reason why it's breaking is that you're setting the width of your
> breadcrumbs div to be 600px, and then setting the padding to 3px, which
gets
> added to the declared width (making the div 606px wide, which is 4 pixels
too
> many for the 602px container). IE6 in quirks mode (and IE5) calculate the
css
> box model incorrectly by *including* padding and borders in the declared
> width. Other browsers (and IE6 in standards rendering mode) *add* padding
and
> borders to the declared width. More info here:
> http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/box-model.html
>
> Actually, I would probably simplify your layout a little and attack the
> problem a different way, perhaps by removing the explicit widths on some
of
> the elements and applying the right hand blue stripe to a container
element.
> Your nav, top and texas divs are a little unnecessary as they only contain
one
> element each - rather than having the #nav div with an unordered list, try
> losing the div and apply the id directly to the ul.
>
> I'm a little hungover right now, and the box model/quirks mode explanation
> above has used up most of my brain glucose so please excuse my lack of a
> better suggestion. Fix up the rendering mode issue and you'll be on the
right
> track. I hope this makes sense!
>
> K.
>
> --
> Kay Smoljak
> http://developer.perthweb.com.au

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Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment - OT

[Russ Weakley - Maxdesign]

Apologies to all - I seem to have done some thread hijacking of my own!

That off-topic post was made in a flippant mood on Saturday night. The site
in question was taken down a year or two ago, so the games cannot be seen.
However, the front page is still available on the wayback machine (may
offend some viewers):
http://web.archive.org/web/20020925212239/webwank.net/

In those days we were into political activism and fighting for the rights of
Indigenous Australians. Now we are standards evangelists fighting for CSS
and standards against repressive regimes (such as IE6).  :)

Back to discussions on web standards...
Russ



> Sorry, I meant the site the article talks about - webwank.net - I want to
> throw tampons at John Howard!
> 

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Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment

[Kay Smoljak]

Neerav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

> I can view it in Firefox 0.8 , heres the text for ppl who cant access it 
> for some reason
> 
> http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149

Sorry, I meant the site the article talks about - webwank.net - I want to
throw tampons at John Howard!


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Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment

[Kym Kovan]

Hi Kay,

>> http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149
>
>Is the site no longer up?

I can see it, and had a good giggle :-)


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Yours,

Kym 

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Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment

[Neerav]

I can view it in Firefox 0.8 , heres the text for ppl who cant access it 
for some reason

http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149
Australian Government Sets Out To Ban Political Web Game
January 23, 2001
"Government officials in Australia are threatening a lawsuit against 
WebWank.net for posting a political satire Web game, which pokes fun at 
the country's treatment of its aboriginal people. Aboriginal Affairs 
Minister John Herron feels that the use of his likeness in the game, 
JOHN HERRON'S STOLEN CHILDREN GAME, is a defamation of character. In the 
game, players must capture all ten of John Herron's children then place 
them in non-white families.

The game is a satire of an early 20th century Australian policy, which 
removed aboriginal children from their families and placed them in white 
homes. Current Australian Prime Minister, John Howard, has also come 
under heat of late for refusing to apologize for the policy, which 
displaced thousands of children known as the "Stolen Generation."

The STOLEN CHILDREN creators, Russ Weakley and Peter Firminger, e-mailed 
Herron about what he thought of the game. Herron responded in a written 
letter saying, "This is formally to let you know that I am instituting 
proceedings against you for defamation in the Supreme Court of 
Queensland. The Federal Police will be involved to track this Website if 
I do not receive a response within 24 hours."

Weakley and Firminger removed the game on Thursday, January 18, however 
it was back up on Monday, January 22. The creators wrote on the site, 
"This game is political satire. It was intended to be a comic depiction 
of the Howard government's policy and John Herron's stance towards the 
'Stolen Generation.' We do not, in any way, intend to offend or threaten 
John Herron's real children."

Electronic Frontier Australia board member Dale Clapperton said, "In a 
free society, it is completely unacceptable for politicians to use 
threats of legal action to silence their critics. Senator Herron has 
completely overreacted to a humorous parody of his handling of the 
'Stolen Generation' issue. Furthermore, threatening to use the Federal 
Police to track down the authors of this site constitutes a gross abuse 
of his power as an elected official."

WebWank features two other political games, which have enflamed 
officials. THE CRUCIFIXION GAME challenges players to nail WebWank 
creators to a cross and THE JOHN HOWARD SHOOTING GALLERY has gamers 
fling tampons at the Prime Minister – a poke at the Australian 
government's unpopular tax on feminine hygiene products. "

--
Neerav Bhatt
http://www.bhatt.id.au
Web Development & IT consultancy
Mobile: +61 403 8000 27
Kay Smoljak wrote:
Russ Weakley - Maxdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
I played around with flash and and then Peter and I were threatened with
defamation in the Supreme Court of Queensland:
http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149

Is the site no longer up?
--
Kay Smoljak
http://www.newlookhair.com.au
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Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment

[Kay Smoljak]

Russ Weakley - Maxdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> I played around with flash and and then Peter and I were threatened with
> defamation in the Supreme Court of Queensland:
> http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149

Is the site no longer up?

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http://www.newlookhair.com.au


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RE: [WSG] Site breaking in Mozilla

[Jeff Lowder - Accessibility 1st]

Hi Ward

Most of your problems are coming from the standard box model problems
associated with IE.

I see that you're using the 

Re: [WSG] Site breaking in Mozilla

[Kay Smoljak]

Ward Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> It seems that whenever I try to fix a problem in Mozilla, then IE breaks. 

There's a very good reason for that... Because you are using the xml prolog,
IE is being forced into "quirks" mode rendering, not standards compliance mode
- that is, you're making IE6 behave like IE5, with all of the buggy rendering.
A good explanation of that is at:
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=RenderingMode
If there is *anything* at all, even a comment, before the doctype declaration,
IE6 will go into quirks mode.

In actual fact, Mozilla is behaving correctly. I'm betting that if you remove
the xml prolog, IE will start breaking too.

The reason why it's breaking is that you're setting the width of your
breadcrumbs div to be 600px, and then setting the padding to 3px, which gets
added to the declared width (making the div 606px wide, which is 4 pixels too
many for the 602px container). IE6 in quirks mode (and IE5) calculate the css
box model incorrectly by *including* padding and borders in the declared
width. Other browsers (and IE6 in standards rendering mode) *add* padding and
borders to the declared width. More info here:
http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/box-model.html

Actually, I would probably simplify your layout a little and attack the
problem a different way, perhaps by removing the explicit widths on some of
the elements and applying the right hand blue stripe to a container element.
Your nav, top and texas divs are a little unnecessary as they only contain one
element each - rather than having the #nav div with an unordered list, try
losing the div and apply the id directly to the ul.  

I'm a little hungover right now, and the box model/quirks mode explanation
above has used up most of my brain glucose so please excuse my lack of a
better suggestion. Fix up the rendering mode issue and you'll be on the right
track. I hope this makes sense!

K.

--
Kay Smoljak
http://developer.perthweb.com.au


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Re: [WSG] Site breaking in Mozilla

[Kay Smoljak]

Ward Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> It seems that whenever I try to fix a problem in Mozilla, then IE breaks. 

There's a very good reason for that... Because you are using the xml prolog,
IE is being forced into "quirks" mode rendering, not standards compliance mode
- that is, you're making IE6 behave like IE5, with all of the buggy rendering.
A good explanation of that is at:
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=RenderingMode
If there is *anything* at all, even a comment, before the doctype declaration,
IE6 will go into quirks mode.

In actual fact, Mozilla is behaving correctly. I'm betting that if you remove
the xml prolog, IE will start breaking too.

The reason why it's breaking is that you're setting the width of your
breadcrumbs div to be 600px, and then setting the padding to 3px, which gets
added to the declared width (making the div 606px wide, which is 4 pixels too
many for the 602px container). IE6 in quirks mode (and IE5) calculate the css
box model incorrectly by *including* padding and borders in the declared
width. Other browsers (and IE6 in standards rendering mode) *add* padding and
borders to the declared width. More info here:
http://www.positioniseverything.net/articles/box-model.html

Actually, I would probably simplify your layout a little and attack the
problem a different way, perhaps by removing the explicit widths on some of
the elements and applying the right hand blue stripe to a container element.
Your nav, top and texas divs are a little unnecessary as they only contain one
element each - rather than having the #nav div with an unordered list, try
losing the div and apply the id directly to the ul.  

I'm a little hungover right now, and the box model/quirks mode explanation
above has used up most of my brain glucose so please excuse my lack of a
better suggestion. Fix up the rendering mode issue and you'll be on the right
track. I hope this makes sense!

K.

--
Kay Smoljak
http://developer.perthweb.com.au


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Re: [WSG] Linearizing Tables - Is there a standard?

[XStandard]

Hi Roy,

Think of each cell as a  tag. We use XSLT to make tables linear within XStandard. 
Here is the link to download the XSLT:
http://xstandard.com/download/screenreader.xsl

Regards,
-Vlad
XStandard Development Team
http://xstandard.com


- Original Message -
From: "RC Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 7:26 PM
Subject: [WSG] Linearizing Tables - Is there a standard?


> Is there a 'standard' way for linearizing tables? Does one move
> across, then down row by row, or down then across column by column?
>
> (Okay, I know this was asked in another thread, but noone bit, so I'm posting it as 
> a new topic.)
>
> Roy
>
>
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>
>

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RE: [WSG] Linearizing Tables - Is there a standard?

[Patrick Lauke]

Standard western order: left to right, top to bottom. In case
of nested tables, the browser recursively does this for the content
of cells containing tables as well.
 
You could use a text browser such as Lynx or BrailleSurf to test
linearisation.
 
Patrick

Patrick H. Lauke
Webmaster / University of Salford
http://www.salford.ac.uk 
<>

[WSG] Linearizing Tables - Is there a standard?

[RC Pierce]

Is there a 'standard' way for linearizing tables? Does one move
across, then down row by row, or down then across column by column?

(Okay, I know this was asked in another thread, but noone bit, so I'm posting it as a 
new topic.)

Roy


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RE: [Spam] Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[7 sinz]

doesnt look like he wants to use tables anymore

From: "Mike Pepper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [Spam] Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and 
captions
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 19:35:24 +0100

Far out!
Kristof, well done, mate :o) Big smiley for you.
Now just to implement it ...
Many thanks,
Mike Pepper
(grateful) Accessible Web Developer
www.seowebsitepromotion.com
www.gawds.org
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Kristof Neirynck
Sent: 05 June 2004 19:03
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Spam] Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and
captions
Nick Gleitzman wrote:
> I've been trying to emulate, with CSS alone, what I've been doing for
> years with tables: create a grid of thumbnails, each with a caption
> below, both image and caption linked to an enlargement. We all know how
> easy that is; center the table, center the cell content vertically, add
> some cell padding. Bingo.
>
> Any takers?
>
[snip]
Do you mean something like this?

--
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RE: [Spam] Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[Mike Pepper]

Far out!

Kristof, well done, mate :o) Big smiley for you.

Now just to implement it ...

Many thanks,

Mike Pepper
(grateful) Accessible Web Developer
www.seowebsitepromotion.com
www.gawds.org


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Kristof Neirynck
Sent: 05 June 2004 19:03
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Spam] Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and
captions


Nick Gleitzman wrote:
> I've been trying to emulate, with CSS alone, what I've been doing for  
> years with tables: create a grid of thumbnails, each with a caption  
> below, both image and caption linked to an enlargement. We all know how  
> easy that is; center the table, center the cell content vertically, add  
> some cell padding. Bingo.
> 
> Any takers?
> 
[snip]

Do you mean something like this?



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Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[Kristof Neirynck]

Nick Gleitzman wrote:
I've been trying to emulate, with CSS alone, what I've been doing for  
years with tables: create a grid of thumbnails, each with a caption  
below, both image and caption linked to an enlargement. We all know how  
easy that is; center the table, center the cell content vertically, add  
some cell padding. Bingo.

Any takers?
[snip]
Do you mean something like this?

--
Kristof
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Re: [WSG] Relative font sizes without relative dimension units

[Felix Miata]

Bill McAvinney wrote:
 
> I was being a bit loose with my words. I want sizing to be relative to
> the users font size setting (e.g. if they have their font size set for
> twice the default, I want my layout to be 2X what it would be at the
> default setting – screen real estate permitting), but not relative to
> my font size setting in that particular block element.

[ xx-small | x-small | small | medium | large | x-large | xx-large ]
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/fonts.html#font-size-props
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=UsingKeywords
-- 
"For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his
eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being
understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
Romans 1:20 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

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Re: [WSG] Relative font sizes without relative dimension units

[Bill McAvinney]

On Jun 4, 2004, at 7:33 PM, Patrick Lauke wrote:
The only way around it that I can think of is to do the calculation
of padding/margin based on your font size by hand.
In my example it's pretty straight forward. In the real world with 
inheritance, it is often prohibitively expensive to figure out just 
what the correct compensation is for each element. Automatic 
calculation and compensation by a RAD tool would be great.

On Jun 5, 2004, at 3:13 AM, Lea de Groot wrote:
If you want a consistently absolutely-sized block, then you'll need to
use a fixed size font-size unit (errr...) such as px.
I was being a bit loose with my words. I want sizing to be relative to 
the users font size setting (e.g. if they have their font size set for 
twice the default, I want my layout to be 2X what it would be at the 
default setting – screen real estate permitting), but not relative to 
my font size setting in that particular block element.

In other words if the user wants smaller or larger text I want my 
design to adjust to match, but I don't want the design (i.e. margins, 
widths, etc.) to be 50% larger in the places where my text is 50% 
larger.

Bill McAvinney
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Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[RC Pierce]

"I hope you're not suggesting going back to nested tables are you?"

Not on your life. Tableless, free-flowing, css driven layout is really the ticket, to 
be sure. I
much prefer the ease with which a page can be constructed and styled later. Add to 
this that once a
working template is created, one never has to consider presentation again. Adding new 
content to a
site is so much easier when all one needs to do is insert it into a 'proven' 
construct. Not to
mention, restyling a site doesn't involve 're-tooling' it. This could never be done 
using tables.

Bert's thumbnail layout is really quite straight forward. Wish I'd o' thought of using 
inline
paragraphs as containers when I was having trouble with a thumbnail page, myself. The 
problem of
attaching caption to image, getting it to center with the thumbnail is completely 
overcome using
that simple technique. Beats <.td><.img><.br /><.a>caption<./a><./td> (ignore dots) 
all to heck when
it comes to elasticity and fluidity. Nice one, Bert.

On the other hand, if a page is not elastic (shudder) then a table works just fine, at 
least this
one does, anyway. It is still very linear.

Now this brings up the question: Is there a 'standard' way for linearizing tables? 
Does one move
across, then down row by row, or down then across column by column?

Roy


- Original Message - 
From: "7 sinz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 2004 3:56 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions



yes use tables, but use them wiely, use them as they were intended for (
tabular data )
I hope you're not suggesting going back to nested tables are you?

For me CSS holds to many advantages; and i feel it is just the future ( for
me ne ways )to effectivley render beautiful sematic webpages.

-peace

>From: "RC Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
>Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 03:26:17 -0600
>
>They haven't deprecated the table tag, yet, have they? Maybe I'm just a
>beginner, but I can easily
>follow the difficulty folks are having with 'pure css.' It was fun for me
>until I saw that a
>hackless site was a near impossibility, even if it's just the 3-pixel jog
>hack (which doesn't work
>for lists).
>
>think the jury is going to be out for a long time on this one. There really
>is no 'hack free' way
>to deal with css and cross browser support. Sure there have been plenty of
>'elegant' uses of
>tableless markup, but when it takes a simple process and turns it into a
>morass of problems and
>surprises, it really does cross the line.
>
>Until the 'table police' show up and put on the cuffs, the best thing is do
>what is expedient, and
>what is effective and dependable. Whether for layout or tabular data, the
>use of tables, and their
>predictable results should not be discounted or frowned upon--especially if
>the table makes sense
>when linearized.
>
>What you are trying to do 'fits the bill' for a legitimate table. Until CSS
>reaches the point where
>proper centering, width and height is possible across all browsers and all
>platforms without hacks
>and kludges, hybrid designs should be expected, and not discouraged. As
>long as tables are still a
>part of html, I say use them.
>
>Roy
>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Rick Faaberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 10:30 PM
>Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
>
>
>On 6/4/04 9:10 PM "Nick Gleitzman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:
>
> > A parting thought: does a series of thumbnail/caption pairs actually
>qualify
> > as tabular data - thus leaving me feeling better about giving up and
>using a
> > table to lay the bloody thing out anyway?
>
>That was my first thought when I began to read about your angst.
>
>It's tabular data - deal with that way. Get it over with.
>
>I'm no authority.
>
>Rick Faaberg
>
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Re: [WSG] Site breaking in Mozilla

[Michaël Willemot]

On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 08:25:08 -0500, Ward Scott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
it looks fine in IE6. Unfortunately, it is breaking apart badly in  
Mozilla 1.6.
You might want to check out opera & firefox (on windows) too (both broken)
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[WSG] Site breaking in Mozilla

[Ward Scott]

I have been reading the posts from this discussion list for a few months trying to 
decide if I should abandon my table based layout. I finally decided to give it a try 
and am doing okay...I think. My test page validates for XHTML and CSS, and it looks 
fine in IE6. Unfortunately, it is breaking apart badly in Mozilla 1.6.
 
It seems that whenever I try to fix a problem in Mozilla, then IE breaks. I would 
greatly appreciate any suggestions that y'all may have. The files are located at:

http://www.texasdha.org/temp/index.htm
http://www.texasdha.org/temp/styles1.css

Aside from Mozilla breaking, I am also curious to know if I have handled the #texas 
div correctly. I had a tough time getting it where I wanted it - until I published it 
to a server and found that it magically corrected itself??? I am curious why a locally 
displayed version would look different.
 
Thanks,
Ward
 
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RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[Mike Pepper]

Yep :o)

But that begs the thought: when is a table not a table but a list of objects
with attributes and, therefore, the only criterion for dismissing them from
mark-up would be nesting. However, there are practical constraints to this
approach, not least of which the complexity of nested CSS markup.

Put another way: is CSS often used as a hammer to crack a peanut?

Good point, Rick.

Mike Pepper
(practical) Accessible Web Developer
www.seowebsitepromotion.com
www.gawds.org


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Rick Faaberg
Sent: 05 June 2004 11:56
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions


On 6/5/04 3:47 AM "Mike Pepper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent
this out:

> Not so with a sequence of images (unless, of course, you're ordering them
> alphabetically but that's not the issue).

Couldn't Cost and Monday have a value which is an image along with a
caption?

:-)

Rick Faaberg

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Re: [WSG] Safari and Opera

[Roger Johansson]

On 5 jun 2004, at 12.56, 7 sinz wrote:
Now i dont know if any one else has tried this ; but im trying to hide 
input borders which is working in Mozilla,IE ( all version/platfroms) 
but after doing a few browser cams, i notice that safari still place 
borders around the input's ,the same problem ( with even) the latest 
version of Opera for windows.

Has anyone got a way of doing it?
No. Styling form elements the same across platforms and browsers is not 
possible, since several browsers use the operating system's native 
widgets, and ignore most attempts at styling them.

/Roger
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RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[Mike Pepper]

My hovercraft is full of eels ;o)

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of 7 sinz
Sent: 05 June 2004 12:07
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions


i wasnt talking to you ;)


>From: "Mike Pepper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: "WSG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
>Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 11:47:12 +0100
>
>It's not tabular data, it's a linear stream of images with captions. One
>way
>of looking at it is to take the thumbs and associated text and jumble the
>sequence; do that with a proper table grid and you'll have a mess since the
>row and columnar formats will be meaningless.
>
>For instance --
>
>   Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
>  Cost  10  20  20  10  20  20  20
>  Unit   3   5   2   6   4   1   7
>
>Cost/Sat = 20. It's position must remain fixed to make sense, although it
>may possibly remain true in another location. Incorporate the Unit value of
>the matrix and moving anything invalidates the results. This is a table;
>rows and columns point to specific cells; rows and columns have meaning.
>Move the cell values within the grid and the results are nonsense.
>
>Not so with a sequence of images (unless, of course, you're ordering them
>alphabetically but that's not the issue).
>
>Make sense?
>
>Mike Pepper
>Accessible Web Developer (after a great night's sleep)
>www.seowebsitepromotion.com
>www.gawds.org
>
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Behalf Of Rick Faaberg
>Sent: 05 June 2004 05:30
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
>
>
>On 6/4/04 9:10 PM "Nick Gleitzman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:
>
> > A parting thought: does a series of thumbnail/caption pairs actually
>qualify
> > as tabular data - thus leaving me feeling better about giving up and
>using
>a
> > table to lay the bloody thing out anyway?
>
>That was my first thought when I began to read about your angst.
>
>It's tabular data - deal with that way. Get it over with.
>
>I'm no authority.
>
>Rick Faaberg
>
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>for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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>
>
>
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>

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RE: [WSG] Relative font sizes without relative dimension units

[Patrick Lauke]

>so it doesn't make any sense to measure it other
>than relative to the current size
 
actually, it does make a lot of sense, as the original poster
wants the whole measurements to be relative, but all
based on a unified measure, not the current size of the
current element.
 
P
<>

Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment

[Russ Weakley - Maxdesign]

I think can beat that!

I played around with flash and and then Peter and I were threatened with
defamation in the Supreme Court of Queensland:
http://news.awn.com/index.php?newsitem_no=4149

But that was before we became responsible listparents  :)
Russ



> I played around with flash - in a wk i made blue box move from one side to
> another :D!!

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RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[7 sinz]

i wasnt talking to you ;)

From: "Mike Pepper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WSG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 11:47:12 +0100
It's not tabular data, it's a linear stream of images with captions. One 
way
of looking at it is to take the thumbs and associated text and jumble the
sequence; do that with a proper table grid and you'll have a mess since the
row and columnar formats will be meaningless.

For instance --
  Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
 Cost  10  20  20  10  20  20  20
 Unit   3   5   2   6   4   1   7
Cost/Sat = 20. It's position must remain fixed to make sense, although it
may possibly remain true in another location. Incorporate the Unit value of
the matrix and moving anything invalidates the results. This is a table;
rows and columns point to specific cells; rows and columns have meaning.
Move the cell values within the grid and the results are nonsense.
Not so with a sequence of images (unless, of course, you're ordering them
alphabetically but that's not the issue).
Make sense?
Mike Pepper
Accessible Web Developer (after a great night's sleep)
www.seowebsitepromotion.com
www.gawds.org

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Rick Faaberg
Sent: 05 June 2004 05:30
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
On 6/4/04 9:10 PM "Nick Gleitzman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:
> A parting thought: does a series of thumbnail/caption pairs actually
qualify
> as tabular data - thus leaving me feeling better about giving up and 
using
a
> table to lay the bloody thing out anyway?

That was my first thought when I began to read about your angst.
It's tabular data - deal with that way. Get it over with.
I'm no authority.
Rick Faaberg
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[WSG] Safari and Opera

[7 sinz]

Now i dont know if any one else has tried this ; but im trying to hide input 
borders which is working in Mozilla,IE ( all version/platfroms) but after 
doing a few browser cams, i notice that safari still place borders around 
the input's ,the same problem ( with even) the latest version of Opera for 
windows.

Has anyone got a way of doing it?
-Steven
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Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[Rick Faaberg]

On 6/5/04 3:47 AM "Mike Pepper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent
this out:

> Not so with a sequence of images (unless, of course, you're ordering them
> alphabetically but that's not the issue).

Couldn't Cost and Monday have a value which is an image along with a
caption?

:-)

Rick Faaberg

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RE: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[Mike Pepper]

It's not tabular data, it's a linear stream of images with captions. One way
of looking at it is to take the thumbs and associated text and jumble the
sequence; do that with a proper table grid and you'll have a mess since the
row and columnar formats will be meaningless.

For instance --

  Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun
 Cost  10  20  20  10  20  20  20
 Unit   3   5   2   6   4   1   7

Cost/Sat = 20. It's position must remain fixed to make sense, although it
may possibly remain true in another location. Incorporate the Unit value of
the matrix and moving anything invalidates the results. This is a table;
rows and columns point to specific cells; rows and columns have meaning.
Move the cell values within the grid and the results are nonsense.

Not so with a sequence of images (unless, of course, you're ordering them
alphabetically but that's not the issue).

Make sense?

Mike Pepper
Accessible Web Developer (after a great night's sleep)
www.seowebsitepromotion.com
www.gawds.org




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Rick Faaberg
Sent: 05 June 2004 05:30
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions


On 6/4/04 9:10 PM "Nick Gleitzman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

> A parting thought: does a series of thumbnail/caption pairs actually
qualify
> as tabular data - thus leaving me feeling better about giving up and using
a
> table to lay the bloody thing out anyway?

That was my first thought when I began to read about your angst.

It's tabular data - deal with that way. Get it over with.

I'm no authority.

Rick Faaberg

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Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment

[Jeff Davies]

Horses for courses - you build what will attract your client's audience - 
if the client requires a site for a niche audience with it's own 
characteristics (as long as these are known not just assumed) then a lot of 
the usual cliches about not losing part of the potential audience MAY not 
apply. There must be some people out there who actually like sitting 
through flash animations - just like the movie companies must have done 
audience research that proves that most of us like sitting through endless 
clever animated sequences that eventually get you to the menu screen on a DVD.

When I started working on websites the woman who took me on said just 
remember that there are millions of idiots out there who will burn up their 
phone bill and sit for ages waiting to see a fake image of Gillian 
Anderson's privates slowly reveal itself on screen but they're unlikely to 
be still waiting on your ever-so-neat price list and order form for home 
delivered pizza to materialise.

As basic advice it's worked for me
Jeff
06:28 05/06/2004, you wrote:
Hey list,
I have something which has been a major topic of discussion between a 
friend and I.
I am currently working on a promotions website - promoting for Sydney 
Nightclubs (R&B Scene)
To knuckle down and get to the point - Do I use webstandards and efficent 
coding to make the website...
Or do I use Flash, Verbose Table Layouts, Lots of Images & Animations 
etc... To get people interested.

Really it is a question of - do I make the website for viewer enjoyment, 
or for the widest viewer spectrum.

I am not sure if many of you would be in the same situation, but I can 
imagine it has come up at least once with us all before.
Whether its a news website, or a Hosting companies website...

My situation is a very sticky one - Clubbers dont want web standards, they 
want to see - what they can't have - lots of pictures help, and sounds are 
good (ambient music, on/off switch of course).

My website hasn't begun yet, although I have some rough ideas, one which 
my friend came up with:
http://www.equicom.net/chris/test.html
I think its great, doesnt use flash or anything.
It was an eye opener thinking it was as simple as it was.
It works in FireFox (exept sound) which is good...
But the fact that it looks good with such a simply design.

What are your opinions - and can you lend me any assistance.
Web Standars are very important to me, and I would much rather use 
standards compliant code, than make 10 extra people per 100 happy because 
there is a boxed layout (like the demo website)...
I could code that in CSS, but it wouldn't be as solid as it is with Tables.

Anyway!
Let me know what you all think!
Cheers!
Chris Stratford.
web-arts: the art & craft of web design
http://www.web-arts.biz 

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Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment

[Jeff Davies]

Horses for courses - you build what will attract your client's audience - 
if the client requires a site for a niche audience with it's own 
characteristics (as long as these are known not just assumed) then a lot of 
the usual cliches about not losing part of the potential audience MAY not 
apply. There must be some people out there who actually like sitting 
through flash animations - just like the movie companies must have done 
audience research that proves that most of us like sitting through endless 
clever animated sequences that eventually get you to the menu screen on a DVD.

When I started working on websites the woman who took me on said just 
remember that there are millions of idiots out there who will burn up their 
phone bill and sit for ages waiting to see a fake image of Gillian 
Anderson's privates slowly reveal itself on screen but they're unlikely to 
be still waiting on your ever-so-neat price list and order form for home 
delivered pizza to materialise.

As basic advice it's worked for me
Jeff
06:28 05/06/2004, you wrote:
Hey list,
I have something which has been a major topic of discussion between a 
friend and I.
I am currently working on a promotions website - promoting for Sydney 
Nightclubs (R&B Scene)
To knuckle down and get to the point - Do I use webstandards and efficent 
coding to make the website...
Or do I use Flash, Verbose Table Layouts, Lots of Images & Animations 
etc... To get people interested.

Really it is a question of - do I make the website for viewer enjoyment, 
or for the widest viewer spectrum.

I am not sure if many of you would be in the same situation, but I can 
imagine it has come up at least once with us all before.
Whether its a news website, or a Hosting companies website...

My situation is a very sticky one - Clubbers dont want web standards, they 
want to see - what they can't have - lots of pictures help, and sounds are 
good (ambient music, on/off switch of course).

My website hasn't begun yet, although I have some rough ideas, one which 
my friend came up with:
http://www.equicom.net/chris/test.html
I think its great, doesnt use flash or anything.
It was an eye opener thinking it was as simple as it was.
It works in FireFox (exept sound) which is good...
But the fact that it looks good with such a simply design.

What are your opinions - and can you lend me any assistance.
Web Standars are very important to me, and I would much rather use 
standards compliant code, than make 10 extra people per 100 happy because 
there is a boxed layout (like the demo website)...
I could code that in CSS, but it wouldn't be as solid as it is with Tables.

Anyway!
Let me know what you all think!
Cheers!
Chris Stratford.
web-arts: the art & craft of web design
http://www.web-arts.biz 

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Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment

[Jeff Davies]

Horses for courses - you build what will attract your client's audience - 
if the client requires a site for a niche audience with it's own 
characteristics (as long as these are known not just assumed) then a lot of 
the usual cliches about not losing part of the potential audience MAY not 
apply. There must be some people out there who actually like sitting 
through flash animations - just like the movie companies must have done 
audience research that proves that most of us like sitting through endless 
clever animated sequences that eventually get you to the menu screen on a DVD.

When I started working on websites the woman who took me on said just 
remember that there are millions of idiots out there who will burn up their 
phone bill and sit for ages waiting to see a fake image of Gillian 
Anderson's privates slowly reveal itself on screen but they're unlikely to 
be still waiting on your ever-so-neat price list and order form for home 
delivered pizza to materialise.

As basic advice it's worked for me
Jeff
06:28 05/06/2004, you wrote:
Hey list,
I have something which has been a major topic of discussion between a 
friend and I.
I am currently working on a promotions website - promoting for Sydney 
Nightclubs (R&B Scene)
To knuckle down and get to the point - Do I use webstandards and efficent 
coding to make the website...
Or do I use Flash, Verbose Table Layouts, Lots of Images & Animations 
etc... To get people interested.

Really it is a question of - do I make the website for viewer enjoyment, 
or for the widest viewer spectrum.

I am not sure if many of you would be in the same situation, but I can 
imagine it has come up at least once with us all before.
Whether its a news website, or a Hosting companies website...

My situation is a very sticky one - Clubbers dont want web standards, they 
want to see - what they can't have - lots of pictures help, and sounds are 
good (ambient music, on/off switch of course).

My website hasn't begun yet, although I have some rough ideas, one which 
my friend came up with:
http://www.equicom.net/chris/test.html
I think its great, doesnt use flash or anything.
It was an eye opener thinking it was as simple as it was.
It works in FireFox (exept sound) which is good...
But the fact that it looks good with such a simply design.

What are your opinions - and can you lend me any assistance.
Web Standars are very important to me, and I would much rather use 
standards compliant code, than make 10 extra people per 100 happy because 
there is a boxed layout (like the demo website)...
I could code that in CSS, but it wouldn't be as solid as it is with Tables.

Anyway!
Let me know what you all think!
Cheers!
Chris Stratford.
web-arts: the art & craft of web design
http://www.web-arts.biz 

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Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[7 sinz]

yes use tables, but use them wiely, use them as they were intended for ( 
tabular data )
I hope you're not suggesting going back to nested tables are you?

For me CSS holds to many advantages; and i feel it is just the future ( for 
me ne ways )to effectivley render beautiful sematic webpages.

-peace
From: "RC Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2004 03:26:17 -0600
They haven't deprecated the table tag, yet, have they? Maybe I'm just a 
beginner, but I can easily
follow the difficulty folks are having with 'pure css.' It was fun for me 
until I saw that a
hackless site was a near impossibility, even if it's just the 3-pixel jog 
hack (which doesn't work
for lists).

think the jury is going to be out for a long time on this one. There really 
is no 'hack free' way
to deal with css and cross browser support. Sure there have been plenty of 
'elegant' uses of
tableless markup, but when it takes a simple process and turns it into a 
morass of problems and
surprises, it really does cross the line.

Until the 'table police' show up and put on the cuffs, the best thing is do 
what is expedient, and
what is effective and dependable. Whether for layout or tabular data, the 
use of tables, and their
predictable results should not be discounted or frowned upon--especially if 
the table makes sense
when linearized.

What you are trying to do 'fits the bill' for a legitimate table. Until CSS 
reaches the point where
proper centering, width and height is possible across all browsers and all 
platforms without hacks
and kludges, hybrid designs should be expected, and not discouraged. As 
long as tables are still a
part of html, I say use them.

Roy
- Original Message -
From: "Rick Faaberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions
On 6/4/04 9:10 PM "Nick Gleitzman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:
> A parting thought: does a series of thumbnail/caption pairs actually 
qualify
> as tabular data - thus leaving me feeling better about giving up and 
using a
> table to lay the bloody thing out anyway?

That was my first thought when I began to read about your angst.
It's tabular data - deal with that way. Get it over with.
I'm no authority.
Rick Faaberg
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for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[RC Pierce]

They haven't deprecated the table tag, yet, have they? Maybe I'm just a beginner, but 
I can easily
follow the difficulty folks are having with 'pure css.' It was fun for me until I saw 
that a
hackless site was a near impossibility, even if it's just the 3-pixel jog hack (which 
doesn't work
for lists).

I think the jury is going to be out for a long time on this one. There really is no 
'hack free' way
to deal with css and cross browser support. Sure there have been plenty of 'elegant' 
uses of
tableless markup, but when it takes a simple process and turns it into a morass of 
problems and
surprises, it really does cross the line.

Until the 'table police' show up and put on the cuffs, the best thing is do what is 
expedient, and
what is effective and dependable. Whether for layout or tabular data, the use of 
tables, and their
predictable results should not be discounted or frowned upon--especially if the table 
makes sense
when linearized.

What you are trying to do 'fits the bill' for a legitimate table. Until CSS reaches 
the point where
proper centering, width and height is possible across all browsers and all platforms 
without hacks
and kludges, hybrid designs should be expected, and not discouraged. As long as tables 
are still a
part of html, I say use them.

Roy


- Original Message - 
From: "Rick Faaberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 2004 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions


On 6/4/04 9:10 PM "Nick Gleitzman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

> A parting thought: does a series of thumbnail/caption pairs actually qualify
> as tabular data - thus leaving me feeling better about giving up and using a
> table to lay the bloody thing out anyway?

That was my first thought when I began to read about your angst.

It's tabular data - deal with that way. Get it over with.

I'm no authority.

Rick Faaberg

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Re: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment

[Chris Stratford]

Good points mike.

I know what you mean, and that was my original idea with the website.
although the websites I produced turned out to be - lets say - less
than ideal for the audience.
I know flash isn't totally inaccessible - but its not avaliable on
mobiles, its not always avaliable on PC's.
It can be inefficent, and it can be an annoyance - thats why I usually
steer clear.
Although I think for this project, i will use Flash for the title logo
- and I will have a Splash page (yeah I hate them too).
But the splash page will have a link - SKIP this intro.
That link will save a cookie - and that splash page will not be seen
again (1 year cookie).

Good tips and nice ideas!
Thanks a lot for your input!
Greatly appreciated!

Chris Stratford

Mike Pepper wrote:

  
  
  
  Chris, look at it this way: they're all going to
be tripping, anyway, so you're just doubling up on the psychedelic
experience :o)
   
  Don't do it. Go standards. My stepson's heading
a D & B/Jungle unit so I've got to dip more than a toe into that
environment very shortly. I didn't even consider using anything but
standards-compliant accessible markup when the build request arose.
Yes, it is challenging to go standards when the glamour of Flash
beckons but consider this: if you want to send SMS alerts to cell
phones you're gonna use text. And when they hit the site they're gonna
want quick access and not huge cell phone bills. Consider the practical
commercial aspects of what you're looking to achieve. Give them what
they really want: a list of what's on and where in the clubber scene in
Sydney. Make it useful; make it functional. Then you can consider all
the 'Wow, that's cool' bits with CSS rollovers, etc.
   
  (Incidentally, well written Flash does not mean
inaccessible; it's just another tool.)
   
  Mike Pepper
  Accessible Web Developer (on a roll)
  www.seowebsitepromotion.com
  www.gawds.org
   

RE: [WSG] Standards Compliance -vs- User Enjoyment

[Mike Pepper]

Chris, 
look at it this way: they're all going to be tripping, anyway, so you're just 
doubling up on the psychedelic experience :o)
 
Don't 
do it. Go standards. My stepson's heading a D & B/Jungle unit so I've got to 
dip more than a toe into that environment very shortly. I didn't even consider 
using anything but standards-compliant accessible markup when the build 
request arose. Yes, it is challenging to go standards when the glamour of Flash 
beckons but consider this: if you want to send SMS alerts to cell phones you're 
gonna use text. And when they hit the site they're gonna want quick access and 
not huge cell phone bills. Consider the practical commercial aspects of what 
you're looking to achieve. Give them what they really want: a list of what's on 
and where in the clubber scene in Sydney. Make it useful; make it functional. 
Then you can consider all the 'Wow, that's cool' bits with CSS rollovers, 
etc.
 
(Incidentally, well written Flash does not mean inaccessible; it's just 
another tool.)
 
Mike 
Pepper
Accessible Web Developer (on a roll)
www.seowebsitepromotion.com
www.gawds.org
 

Re: [WSG] Centering a liquid grid of image thumbs and captions

[Mike Pepper]

At to whether a list of thumbs is truly tabular ... I think not. It will
visually appear such but it's not a grid -- for which tables should be used,
as a matrix.

Tables have rows and columns at which cells intersect as combined related
values; a contiguous list of thumbs and associated captions have no common
properties other than being a picture and text and *will make sense in
isolation*.

But you're not going to like what I've discovered as a result of
experimenting with tables ...

The bloody things don't inherit relative (em- and percentage-based) font and
line-size attributes in IE 5/5.1, which means more bloody CSS and/or markup
to compensate for that cock-up.

Don't you just love being a standards-compliant developer :o(

So as I see it, it's a question of the lesser of two evils: wrap each image
and associated caption in another container and bulk the markup or use
semantically incorrect cells and bulk up the CSS to cope with IE's
shortcomings.

Funnily enough, the client previewed the near-finished site update yesterday
and was delighted ... then asked if I could centre the thumbs ...

I shall endeavour to persevere :o)

There is always a resolution

Mike Pepper
Accessible Web Developer (with attitude)
http://www.seowebsitepromotion.com
http://www.gawds.org

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Re: [WSG] Relative font sizes without relative dimension units

[Lea de Groot]

On Fri, 4 Jun 2004 19:50:54 -0400, Bill McAvinney wrote:
> What I'm looking for is a way to have a consistent em based measuring 
> unit across all block elements in a site so that a width of say 10em 
> will be the same  no matter what the font size of the text in that 
> block is.

Unfortunately, this doesn't even make sense.
If you want a consistently absolutely-sized block, then you'll need to 
use a fixed size font-size unit (errr...) such as px.
em is a relative unit, so it doesn't make any sense to measure it other 
than relative to the current size.

I don't think I've made any sense either, but it is Saturday :)

Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - I Understand the Internet 
Web Design, Usability, Information Architecture, Search Engine 
Optimisation
Brisbane, Australia
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